# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Learning the fretboard

## GDAE

I want to learn the fretboard thoroughly, so that I instinctively know that if I play this fret on that string it's a particular note.

I have fretboard diagrams, but they aren't really helping me internalize it.  I've also tried playing scales while naming the notes aloud, but that's note quite doing it either.

What have you found are the best ways to really internalize the fretboard?

Thanks.

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## Bryon Winger

Sight reading has helped me more than I could have imagined. I'm just breaking out of first position with the Prelude to Bach's Cello Suite No. 1 and have begun learning 3rd and 5th positions for the runs near the end.

Its also quite amazing how the headache of learning to make the connections from note to fingers pays off. I played guitar for 15 years without sight reading and never really learned what I was doing - a few months of reading notes on the mando and its opened up a whole new world to me.

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## groveland

These two patterns cover the lines and spaces - They're pretty easy to visualize and match against the written staff on demand:



(<-body nut->)

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## Bob Aliano

I have found that avoiding TAB notation produces the quickest learning of the fretboard.  I play guitar, mandolin and lap steel guitar all in different tunings and have no problem going from one to the other.  The assumption is the ability to read music and understand the concept of thirds and fifths.  At first I have to mentally count off the frets from the open string but that usually stops within the first hour of practice.  I also subscribe to the First Position/Second Position/third Position concept so I'm not trying to learn the whole fretboard at once.

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## dorenac

Pardon my ignorance but would someone describe,i.e. diagram those positions or provide a good source to learn more about those?
Thanks

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## Bryon Winger

In the first position, you're using the first fret (or nut really) as an anchor point for the "lower end" of a 7 fret playing field or range on the neck - you would ideally confine your fingering between the nut and 7th fret. I am not certain where the other positions start, I *think* that 3rd position starts at about the 5th fret and goes up to the 12th.

Of course, with accidentals (sharps and flats), you may occasionally move out of the position range and play up an extra fret or down one to make a note fit.

You might begin by finding a piece of music that you're somewhat familiar with but can't play yet. Figure out the lowest note and highest note and see if you can figure out which position would be most comfortable to play it in. If you find some violin music, you'll find lots of easier stuff in first position (lowest note being the open G strings) and highest note being somewhere near the A (5th fret) or B (7th fret) on the E strings. Once you can sight read in this position you can try to learn to play it in a different position - play as much of it as possible that way, but replacing open string notes with fretted ones on the 7th frets etc. Use your pinky as much as you can handle to get those higher frets internalized.

Hope this helps. I'm sure there's more than can be added to my very basic understanding. Its helping me move from just playing music to understanding music as well as my instrument.

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## Bryon Winger

Here is a link to the notes in first position - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._chart.svg.png.

Its from a Wiki page on the violin, but the fingerings are the same for mandolin.

Also, in my first post I said I was learning the 3rd and 5th positions - this is incorrect. I should have said 2nd and 3rd position. I'm not up to 5th position yet!

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## jasona

> Pardon my ignorance but would someone describe,i.e. diagram those positions or provide a good source to learn more about those?
> Thanks


Grisman's Mandolin Position Study.

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John MacPhee, 

Mark Gunter, 

Sola

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## mandocrucian

You guys take something that should be simple and try to make it complicated! :Disbelief: 

*Sing* the notes (names) of the G major scale *while you play it.* 
You get: 
*your basic theory* (what notes are in what scale, 
*your ear training**,
your ear>hand synchronization, 
and your digital practice, 
all at the same time! *  :Grin: 

(OK. that gives you 7 of the 12 pitches, albeit you are probably still in the 1st position.)

Now, sing/play the G natural minor scale.....which gives you three other pirches (Bb, Eb, F).  Plus the ear training, and getting an a/b sonic comparison into your ear/head between the sound of major/minor.

Repeat with A major  (and A minor).
Repeat with D major  (and D minor).
Repeat with C major  (and C minor).
Repeat with E major  (and E minor).

before long, you should know where all 12 pitches lie on the neck in open position.  (You might as well continue the process for all 12 keys and get all your basic scale theory in "song format")

Take the process and apply it to arpeggios. 

Or play/sing scales in different positions (if you're are ready for that), or restric yourself to moving up and down on one string only.

Niles Hokkanen

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Dolamon, 

johngdon, 

Mark Gunter, 

peterleyenaar, 

Woodrow Wilson

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## Wendolin

There is a great piece of software for helping to learn the fretboard: The Absolute Fretboard Trainer

http://www.absolutefretboard.com/aft/mandolin.asp

It works for mandolin as well as guitar. I think that you can download a sample version of the program to try for 30 days.

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## UnityGain

Here are a few peices of advice.

Learn your intervals.  Understand chord construction.  Figure out what notes are the 1, 3 and 5 of all the chords you know.  You can play them anywhere on the fretboard.  Realize that the nut of the mandolin is like an imaginary finger barring those notes to make your open chords into closed chords.  Take a peice of music and figure out all of the harmonic intervals between notes and how they relate to the chord being played as well as the key of the song.  This will lead into doublestops and more complicated chords.


Learn a song purely by ear.

Hear a note, find that note.  Repeat.  Helps if you hum the note if you can.  Think about the last note you played and try to use your knowlege of intervals to listen and decide how far away the next note might be.  At first, you might be pretty far off.  But after a while (maybe months, but it will happen) you'll be able to locate the right note pretty quickly because your've spent enough time guessing that your 'guesses' are going to become more and more accurate.  Being able to hum aloud all the intervals will make this much, much easier.  The goal is to be able to tell by ear how many frets apart two notes are.  Once you have that, its just a matter of figureing out how to put your finger on that note.

Hope this helps.

oh and FFCP helps a lot too.  http://www.jazzmando.com/ffcp.shtml
Pay attention to the intervals.

direct link to excersizes: http://jazzmando.com/FFcP.pdf

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## Laurence Firth

Here is how I learned it. 
1) learn this sequence A B C D E F G
2) now learn this sequence A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G#
3) now learn this sequence W W H W W W H (where W = whole step and H = half step)
4) now learn that the mandolin is tuned in 5ths. From the G string up to the D string is a 5th
5) now learn that moving from the D string to the G string is an interval of a 4th
6) now learn that an interval of a 5th is 7 half steps and an interval of a 4th is 5 half steps

now pick an open string : start with the G string. next fret the G string at the 7th fret : thats 7 half steps. You now know that this will be a 5th above the G - if you can remember the sequence stated above in 2) you will know that this is a D note. try fretting it at the 9th fret. That is 9 half steps - so again you know that this is going to be a 6th above the open string and is therefore an E note. Continue trying this at any fret and ask yourself how many half steps is this and then related it back to the sequence in 2)

The sequence in step 3) is the number of whole and half steps in the major scale. use this knowledge to help you finger the major scale in any key using any string or set of strings. Remember that the strings are tuned in 5ths.

Practice and this will become simple.

Good luck

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## GDAE

Thanks for the ideas.  I have been working on playing scales while naming notes...I'm adding the FFcP versions of that because my pinky needs training and strengthening too.  I can play by ear, and read music ok...so hopefully it'll come along with some focused work.  I'm going to try some of these other ideas as well.

Thanks!

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## JeffD

> Pardon my ignorance but would someone describe,i.e. diagram those positions or provide a good source to learn more about those?
> Thanks


First position is playing two frets per finger up to the seventh fret, at which point you go up to the next string. 

Third position is playing a fourth up. Its called third position because you are  putting your first finger where your third finger would have gone. You start on the fifth fret, and work across the neck. If you play without open strings, the two positions would have almost identical fingerings and differ by a fourth.

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## Jkf_Alone

what's helped me is just learning scales and doublestops. Also, learning tunes.  I think you should slowly build your knowledge and not expect to understand it all at once. start out with understanding 1st position scales and doublestops, and see how they relate to tunes you know and chords to those tunes. then move to arpeggios. I am only just starting to see the fingerboard as a series of repeating doublestops an scales. Another thing to do is to try and play in different keys than you normally would. If you don't use the notes, you won't learn where they are.

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## Weagle

Those position studies by Grisman are pretty cool. Some great information being brought out by the board members. I am thoroughly enjoying it. Some more stuff to work on. Makes me keep on keeping on.

Weagle

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## Chris "Bucket" Thomas

[QUOTE=mandocrucian;603086]You guys take something that should be simple and try to make it complicated! :Disbelief: 

*Sing* the notes (names) of the G major scale *while you play it.* 
You get: 
*your basic theory* (what notes are in what scale, 
*your ear training**,
your ear>hand synchronization, 
and your digital practice, 
all at the same time! *  :Grin: 

AHHHHH---The common sense approach.............

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## alanz

Does anyone really sing "G A B C D E F-Sharp G"  out loud?


Oh, and wasn't it Steven Wright who wondered if the alphabet was in that order because of the song....

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## jasona

> Does anyone really sing "G A B C D E F-Sharp G"  out loud?


Yes, but not in key.  :Laughing:

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Woodrow Wilson

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## Mark Gunter

Great thread! Niles breaks the log jam, and the Grisman position study is an awesome exercise when you break down the key signatures and note names/positions while you exercise. Two thumbs up.

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## Cosmic Graffiti

Moveable scale patterns helped me learn the neck quickly and effectively.

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## JonZ

Make flash cards, just like you would for any other information you want to memorize. Practice both note to location and location to note.

I would recommend reviewing them without the mandolin in hand. Forcing yourself to "see" the fretboard in your mind will make a stronger memory.

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RodCH

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## JeffD

> Moveable scale patterns helped me learn the neck quickly and effectively.


Yea that is really what got me up the neck. 

 One doesn't have to learn the letter names for every fret on every string up the neck. Seriously, that knowledge comes with time, but it is not necessary for playing up the neck, and I am not sure that memorizing it helps in learning to play up the neck. 

Moveable shapes, FFCP, Picklosers guide to double stops, singing or humming along so that ear and hand coordinate, experiencing and learning intervals - what's a fourth, a fifth sound like, and where do I place a finger to play a fourth above where this finger is here, trying to "sound out" a well known tune in a different key starting somewhere else, or playing up in third position. All that kind of stuff. Nile's post 8 years ago is great.

Being able to recite the letter associated with a given fret on a given string, while good to know, IMO it is down the list of priorities.

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David L, 

John MacPhee

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## Mark Gunter

A lot of good ideas in this and other threads. One thing I know instinctively is that memorizing note location is part of it but not the only or the most important part, feeling the notes under my fingers and hearing them emanate from the mandolin is as big a part of learning the notes as memorizing their locations. It all goes hand in hand, so I'm going to work more on remembering note names/locations while playing scales, octaves, arpeggios and by fretting specific notes on each string around the fretboard.

I think I might try one of the phone apps people write about as well, only as something to do when I find myself with down time and no mandolin at hand.

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## pops1

The same scale played open, say a G, D, A is the same pattern up the neck. If you don't know the notes count up and find where you need to be. Knowing what part of the scale works for the 1 the 4 and the 5 in the open position is the same up the neck. Use this open position scale pattern up the neck until you are comfortable with it, you can do a lot with just this. When you are comfortable start exploring other pattern like starting with your middle or any other finger on the root note and find the pattern. Remember a minor pattern is exactly the same as a major pattern you are just in a different place on the pattern. Key of C you can play Am starting at the C and use the same pattern, you need to remember to resolve of the A. It will vary with different tunes, but it works. Now you can see where the Am is starting with an A note. Since you already (hopefully) know the C scale it makes it easier to find the minor ones. Works the same with all the relative minor's. D to Bm, G to Em, A to F#m etc. It gets to be fun.

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## Mark Gunter

> The same scale played open, say a G, D, A is the same pattern up the neck. If you don't know the notes count up and find where you need to be. Knowing what part of the scale works for the 1 the 4 and the 5 in the open position is the same up the neck. Use this open position scale pattern up the neck until you are comfortable with it, you can do a lot with just this. When you are comfortable start exploring other pattern like starting with your middle or any other finger on the root note and find the pattern. Remember a minor pattern is exactly the same as a major pattern you are just in a different place on the pattern. Key of C you can play Am starting at the C and use the same pattern, you need to remember to resolve of the A. It will vary with different tunes, but it works. Now you can see where the Am is starting with an A note. Since you already (hopefully) know the C scale it makes it easier to find the minor ones. Works the same with all the relative minor's. D to Bm, G to Em, A to F#m etc. It gets to be fun.


This is all good stuff, regular music theory applied to mandolin. I'm pretty familiar with this stuff, too, and do play some up the neck and noodle up there. Knowing major scales and relative minors is great, I can play them. I like to practice the FFcP sometimes, and arpeggios, and just noodle around with scales. I'm a mandolin newbie and not too good with it, but I can actually play some stuff and figure out some stuff. What I'm trying to do now is start working on learning the notes of the fretboard cold. That's the topic of the OP here.

I can play scales and stuff, but I don't know what note I'm on in the middle of a scale without thinking about it. When I want to move something around the neck, I have to stop and figure out where the right note is to start on. stuff like that.

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## pops1

I play mostly using the patterns and know where on the patterns I need to be for the 1, 4, and 5 also minor, 2 etc. As for notes I know a fair amount of notes up the neck, and figure I don't need to know where they all are if I know 1/3 to 1/2 I can easily find where I may need to be if it is different. The more you use it the more you pick up and know. I rarely know what note I am on in the middle of a scale, not sure I need to know that as I am going by it fairly fast and just need to know where to be when the chord changes. If I know what part of the pattern I can play on each chord in the song/tune then I really don't need to know what note I am on all the time. Just my take.

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Mark Gunter

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## Cosmic Graffiti

I have a classical violin back ground where buying into fixed positions is part of the curiculum. My mandolin teacher has taught me the moveable scale patterns and it opened up the entire mandolin for me. I feel the whole fret board is at my disposal. Also I now see how restraining and boxed in fixed positions are. 

After having tried several ways to learn The  fret board on violin (graphs, charts , diagrams, positions, formulas , theroys and theories on theories) I can say for me that moveable scale patterns were the clearest route. 

Practice them every day all on fingers (1-4) as starting points in different keys and not only will you learn the fret board you will also start to recognize keys and key changes. 

Don Julin has a whole section on his site dedicated to this called " mastering the fret board". Well worth the investment to just learn these.

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Mark Gunter

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## Bill Slovin

I've played mando for a while but in the past 3 years focused on really learning the fingerboard and my way around the instrument outside of the standard bluegrass shapes and licks.  Here's what I did:

1.  Learned to read music.  Seems hard at first but if you take it slowly and spend a few minutes a day on reading it will come in only a few months.  That will help your understanding of rhythms too.

2.  Practiced closed position scales and arpeggios in all of the keys.  Many of the violin method books have these exercises in them and if you can read (see #1) they will be very useful.  You can also try Mike Marshall's Arpeggio Workout or Chris Thile's homespun videos.  Both have a lot of good exercises, that will teach you to shift into different positions.

3.  Took some easy fiddle tunes and learned how to play them in all of the keys.  If you have no interest in reading music, this is a good way to learn the fingerboard since you're ear will guide you.  It does help if you understand the numbers of the notes in a scale so you can easily transpose the tunes to different keys.  You'll quickly learn that playing even the simplest tune in all the keys requires knowledge of most of the notes on the fingerboard.

4.  Joined a mandolin orchestra.  This helped a ton with my ability to sight read and learn complex classical pieces.  

Hope that helps.

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Mark Gunter

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## JonZ

> There is a great piece of software for helping to learn the fretboard: The Absolute Fretboard Trainer
> 
> http://www.absolutefretboard.com/aft/mandolin.asp
> 
> It works for mandolin as well as guitar. I think that you can download a sample version of the program to try for 30 days.


The problem with this program is that it treats all notes equally. You end up reviewing the notes you know well as much as the ones you know poorly. Yes, it can "work" as a brute force method, but it is not efficient.

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Mark Gunter

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## Mark Gunter

Lots of helpful info here, thanks.

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## JonZ

I posted an ad for free intelligent flashcards for learning the mandolin fretboard in the classifieds:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/105667#105667

No bells and whistles, but it will get the job done.

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johngdon

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## parttimepicker

Two tips I've heard and have been working on:
1) take a song you know and play it slowly, naming the notes as you go.  Move it up a fret and repeat.
2) If you use a smartphone, there are fretboard trainer apps.  I use one called RR Fretboard Trainer on the ride to work and it's helped a lot.

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## JeffD

Moveable patterns and chord shapes are (to my way of thinking) gigantic. 

Knowing that this fret here on this string here is a G, is not nearly as important as knowing

that it is the same note as that location over there, and there.
and that it is an octave above that position over there
and a fifth up from that location over there, 
and the major chord for what ever this note is can be made like this
and the minor chord for what ever this note is can be made like that
and that these cool double stop harmonies for this note can be found here and here

All that kind of stuff. And that comes with moveable shapes and patterns really quickly. What to name it comes more slowly.

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guidoStow, 

John MacPhee, 

Mark Gunter

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## Cosmic Graffiti

> Moveable patterns and chord shapes are (to my way of thinking) gigantic. 
> 
> All that kind of stuff. And that comes with moveable shapes and patterns really quickly. What to name it comes more slowly.


Oh man such a great way to explain it. I am finding a lot of things in moveable scale patterns that sound great but I have zero clue what to call them. So right on, that naming what you are doing will come in time. I pulled out some dope licks in an improv with Don last week and he said "Show me what you did there because that is an actual thing in music" Meaning....that by playing with the moveable scale patterns my ear and fingers automatically started to make connections that are legit. 

I would say that MSP and playing on beats 2 and 4 were both monumental in my development. I have so far to go but feel that learning those two things well are like a launching pad of sorts. I guess time will tell. 

-Giant Steps-  :Mandosmiley:

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Mark Gunter

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## CES

not as good as actually doing it on the instrument, but Fret Tester is a free app that gives u some practice when you're bored at work, stuck on an airplane, etc

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## JonZ

I don't see the connection between learning movable patterns and learning the fretboard. Patterns allow you to play without thinking about notes. If I want to know where Bb is on the E string, or the note at a fret/string nexus, patterns don't help.

You need to learn the notes independent of patterns. You need to "just know" them.

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## JonZ

> not as good as actually doing it on the instrument, but Fret Tester is a free app that gives u some practice when you're bored at work, stuck on an airplane, etc


Fret Tester looks pretty promising. For $2 (no longer free) it might be more convenient than what I posted for free.

Does it keep track of the notes you know and the notes you don't know? In other words, does it review the hardest notes more frequently? That's where I see a lot of programs fall short.

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## Mandoplumb

> I don't see the connection between learning movable patterns and learning the fretboard. Patterns allow you to play without thinking about notes. If I want to know where Bb is on the E string, or the note at a fret/string nexus, patterns don't help.
> You need to learn the notes independent of patterns. You need to "just know" them.


Maybe if you are playing by standard notation. I read basic notation, know a little theory certainly not as much as a lot of folks that post here, but I play mandolin by ear. To know what notes go with what notes (patterns) is more important than knowing the name of the note. If I need to know the name I can count up the board and figure it out but if I change keys the pattern is easier than thinking each note to note by name. I guess it's just what you are use to.

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## CES

> Fret Tester looks pretty promising. For $2 (no longer free) it might be more convenient than what I posted for free.
> 
> Does it keep track of the notes you know and the notes you don't know? In other words, does it review the hardest notes more frequently? That's where I see a lot of programs fall short.


Thanks for the correction on price, been a couple of years since I downloaded it! I haven't actually opened it since I was last stuck on a plane (maybe 7-8 months ago), but I don't think it utilizes logic to increase difficulty or cycle through the ones you miss more often. Can't say with authority, though, just going off recollection...

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## Cosmic Graffiti

> I don't see the connection between learning movable patterns and learning the fretboard. Patterns allow you to play without thinking about notes. If I want to know where Bb is on the E string, or the note at a fret/string nexus, patterns don't help.
> 
> You need to learn the notes independent of patterns. You need to "just know" them.


Hi Jon, The idea is that you are starting by learning the pattern and as you develop and start to practice the pattern in different keys and in different areas of the fret board you start to relate everything on the fret board together.  We all learn differently though so if you have tried them and do not see relationship and how powerful this method is then I would say its not for you. If you have not tried them then think about giving them some time in your practice for a month and I would bet you would see the potential.

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## JeffD

> I don't see the connection between learning movable patterns and learning the fretboard. Patterns allow you to play without thinking about notes. If I want to know where Bb is on the E string, or the note at a fret/string nexus, patterns don't help.


I agree. Is your point the "ham sandwhich" argument, that the original question is how does one learn the names of the locations, and here I am talking about patterns? 




> You need to learn the notes independent of patterns. You need to "just know" them.


I also agree. My point is that knowing where B_b_ is on the E string is important for understanding, and for talking about the tunes/music/playing mechanics, all important stuff, but learning moveable patterns and shapes will get you actually playing up the neck next month at the jam, which (my prejudice perhaps) is the real important stuff.

Maybe we are in violent agreement.  :Smile: 

To much separation between the two kinds of skills will yield events such as this:

"Killer tune, dude, what key is that in?"

"Ummm, wait let me think, ummm..."

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## JeffD

I am thinking maybe it boils down to different kinds of learning. People are different.

 I know in my experience that there are several guitar players of my acquaintance who know the names and shapes for hundreds of chords, but have no real idea how it can be that I can be playing a tune or playing with a tune and not know what key it is in and not know what key I am playing in.

 At the same time my prejudice leads me to view them as having memorized the names of all the bones in the body and then feeling qualified to diagnose illness.

 All snarkiness aside. Ya gotta learn it all, no question, and the sooner the better. Start where you start, learn what you need, plus a little more, dig around a little bit, and have a rip snorting good time. And however you get there you are gonna leave gaps in your knowledge, some of them embarrassing. Stay humble, play loud.

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DougC

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## Cosmic Graffiti

Also, when learning MSP you do learn the location of all notes....if you choose to. You just need to be aware of what you are fretting in the pattern.

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## JonZ

> I want to learn the fretboard thoroughly, so that I instinctively know that if I play this fret on that string it's a particular note.
> 
> I have fretboard diagrams, but they aren't really helping me internalize it.  I've also tried playing scales while naming the notes aloud, but that's note quite doing it either.
> 
> What have you found are the best ways to really internalize the fretboard?
> 
> Thanks.


To learn this skill, you have to practice naming notes when given a location, and finding locations when given a note. To learn it efficiently, you need to practice the hard ones most and the easiest one least. To maintain the skill you need to either integrate the skill into other types of ongoing practice, or review as needed. Just playing all over the fretboard will not maintain this skill, if it doesn't entail finding and naming notes.

Learning other stuff is good too. There are people who can play very well, who have not learned this skill. But this is how you learn what the OP wants to learn.

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## Mark Gunter

> To learn this skill, you have to practice naming notes when given a location, and finding locations when given a note. To learn it efficiently, you need to practice the hard ones most and the easiest one least. To maintain the skill you need to either integrate the skill into other types of ongoing practice, or review as needed. Just playing all over the fretboard will not maintain this skill, if it doesn't entail finding and naming notes.
> 
> Learning other stuff is good too. There are people who can play very well, who have not learned this skill. But this is how you learn what the OP wants to learn.


I might add, it should be fairly obvious that 1) There are others besides the OP who wish learn this and 2) this would be a useful skill. So, whether or not others give it much importance, _it is a legitimate question_. I think most of the responses have been very helpful, and I'm glad to have found this thread and to have heard from everyone who has made suggestions.

Personally, I think there are better ways to learn this than by rote memory with flash cards. Niles' suggestion was very good, and the method he gave (or at least portions of it) could be combined with position studies, scale patterns, etc. along with learning note positions. Pretty much all suggestions have been helpful, whereas any implications that this is "not important, don't worry about it" might have been less helpful.

Also, the original post is very, very old, recently resurrected, so if people want to stray a bit from the topic I wouldn't get too touchy about it. It's all good.

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## JonZ

I think you are wrong about this.

Often adding complications can help with learning something. The work your brain has to do creates a stronger memory, and the context provides a schema to which the new information adheres.

But in this situation, you want to be able to recall something without thinking about it. By practicing "In this pattern, C is here, so this is B" your are teaching your brain to go through a process to derive B. So you will get good at the process, rather than getting good at instantly recalling. You get good at what you practice.

For example, in elementary school I learned that 8 x 8 = 8 x 4 x 2, and I have always done it the second way. Practicing rote memorization was boring to me, and I had a method that worked good enough. I can tell you what 8 x 8 is, but it is not instant. I must go through the process that I have practiced.

So in this case, I think methods other than practicing "instant recall" are counterproductive to gaining instant recall. You gain instant recall most effectively by practicing instant recall.

There may be other benefits to other forms of practice to other parts of your playing, but they may actually hinder your progress in instantly recalling the fretboard.

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## Mark Gunter

JonZ, just a difference of opinion. What's right for you isn't necessarily right for everyone. I believe a wholistic approach is best. Not simply playing patterns and taking note of the notes (ha) but that certainly has its place in learning the fretboard.

I think that for me, learning notes by rote is part of it, but not with flash cards or phone apps. This would be practicing learning the location of each B note on the GDAE strings. And each of the other natural notes. In addition to practicing this, learning the notes at dotted frets, and learning the octave patterns will go a long way. Then, while practicing scales, arpeggios and other patterns, calling out the notes as Niles suggested can also help.

I think that for me, divorcing my learning process from the actual physical instrument fretboard using flash cards and phone apps, while maybe useful, would be the least likely path to where I want to be with this.

Analogy: http://www.guitarhabits.com/learn-th...ly-in-16-days/

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## JonZ

I provided my reasoning and evidence, and so did you, so it's not "just a difference of opinion". It is important to remember in "these times" that all disagreements are not just differences of opinion, and that all arguments are not equally valid. My argument could be weak or invalid, but it should not be dismissed as just an opinion. Likewise with your argument. Arguing is not bad.

Flash card methods can be practiced with instrument in hand. Flash cards and apps are just a scheduling method for review/testing. The more important part of what I am saying is that if you are not practicing instant recall, it will be more difficult to achieve it.

I don't know what you mean when you say "the least likely path to where I want to be with this." If you want to know where the notes are on the fretboard are, learning where they are seems like a good path.

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## Mark Gunter

You have, in your last post, expressed more opinion.




> I don't know what you mean when you say "the least likely path to where I want to be with this." If you want to know where the notes are on the fretboard are, learning where they are seems like a good path.


Thanks for the admission that sometimes you just don't know what I mean. I'll explain. My goal is not to be able to look at charts or a device screen and associate notes with those. My goal is to put my finger at a fret and say D_b_. 

From post #47


> I think you are wrong about this.


"JonZ, just a difference of opinion. What's right for you isn't necessarily right for everyone."

Thanks for contributing your ideas on how to learn the fretboard. Much appreciated.

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## JonZ

You are quoting the generalizations that I made and leaving out the supporting reasoning and evidence I provided. So, yes, by taking things out of context, you can make the claim that I am "just stating my opinion". But it is intellectually dishonest.

Your personal preference may be to take a meandering walk, but it would not make stating that a straight line is the shortest distance between two points "personal opinion". The fastest way to gain instant recall, is to practice it. But do something else, if you prefer.

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## Mark Gunter

We may be more in agreement than you think.




> The fastest way to gain instant recall, is to practice it.


I agree with that entirely. It is the most important part of the regimen I've prescribed to myself: place a finger on a fret anywhere on the fretboard and practicing recall of the note name. Where we disagree is in the means to accomplish that. Following is a personal opinion:




> I would recommend reviewing them without the mandolin in hand. Forcing yourself to "see" the fretboard in your mind will make a stronger memory.


You would have to be omniscient to know the strength of my memory as related to the various means I use for assimilating information. I would imagine that even if you were to perform a well-documented study of the strength of people's memory with regards to the means by which they assimilate information, the best you could hope for is data with statistical importance - not an iron-clad rule to be used exclusively in the education of every person on the planet.

Do you alone understand how to learn the notes of the fretboard? You have an opinion on which is the best way. Great! I applaud your input. Of all the good responses here, only you have espoused flash cards. I suppose all other suggestions are invalid? According to you, I am not only wrong, I am also intellectually dishonest. And again I say to you, that is merely your opinion, and I disagree.

Finally, in another effort to steer the thread back on track, I will repeat: Thank you for your input that actually relates to the topic, it is much appreciated by me and I'm sure others have found it a useful contribution as well. Be of good cheer.

----------


## Luna Pick

Semantics and logic aside, Happy Holidays everyone. . .

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## Mark Gunter

Happy Holidays, Luna pick!

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## JonZ

Mark,

By trying to disprove my argument, you are demonstrating that it is not just an opinion; an opinion cannot be proven wrong.

I am hoping that 2017 will be the year that Americans learn the difference between an opinion and an argument. Opinions do not require facts or reason. Arguments do. 

Huge difference.

It's fine if you disagree with me, and great if you prove me wrong--because I will be the better for it. But when everything is "just an opinion", truth becomes a popularity contest. Don't be wishy washy. If you think someone is wrong, explain why and own your argument, while also being open to the possibility that you could be wrong.

----------

catmandu2, 

DougC

----------


## DougC

I may be very late to this topic and I need to read more of this thread, but I use a pencil and a scrap of paper and try to write out from memory things like the circle of fifths, patterns of scales in TAB as well as on my hand drawn fretboard chart of 5 or 6 frets.

My wife said the other day, 'You don't know your chords because you don't practice them, you noodle all day with melody'. Ouch!
But she had a point. And it is the same in learning the fretboard. If I don't work at it, it won't get better. 

The hard part is in having patience with myself. There is just too much to learn. (She has a 30 year 'head start' so 'closing the gap' is all I can hope for. My personal best is the goal; most of the time. Ha, ha.)

----------


## JonZ

Any method can work through sheer repetition, but I would suggest that your approach has two problems. First, you are practicing the "easy" notes as much as the "hard" notes. You probably already know the open notes, twelfth fret, fifth fret, so why practice them as much as the ones you are trying to learn? Also the easy notes give you a reference for figuring out the hard notes: "If this is G, the next one is G sharp". You aren't forcing yourself to recall them. It would be better to prioritize which notes you practice and try to identify and locate notes without reference to others.

Practicing the stuff you already know is what creates that feeling of "too much to learn", because if you are always adding new stuff and do not stop practicing learned stuff, you will inevitably run out of practice time.

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## Phil Goodson

Honestly I'm always surprised by people's difficulty with learning the fingerboard. My take:

1.  Learning the notes on the frets with sidemarkers (5, 7, 10) then allows recognition of the others 'on the fly'.  e.g. The note below A is Ab.  You don't even have to vocalize this relationship.  You just know it and act accordingly.

2.  Notes on the 5th fret are usually learned just from playing in the first position and don't even require specific memorization.

3.  Notes on the 7th fret are pretty obvious just from knowing how to tune a mandolin.  Same note as next higher string.  So you just have to remember that B is the note on the 1st string (7th fret).

4. So......  the 10th fret is the only one requiring active efforts at memorizing.  *FCGD*.

Done.

_Okay.  I know that thinking about the above points don't immediately make you able to point to a note and name it without a little practice.  But if you take 5 seconds each time you pick up the mandolin to focus on just ONE note that isn't obvious to you and repeat focusing on the same note several occasions in a row, it sticks pretty quickly._

E.g. "2nd string,fret 10 is G."  Look at it.  G.   Next time:   do the same.   Done.
Next week choose a different note to focus on.  etc...

You'll still have to touch up the memory a little.  I still have to think about that B on the D string once in a while.

Think about it.  One note at a time.
 I hope these suggestions help a little bit.

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## DougC

> Practicing the stuff you already know is what creates that feeling of "too much to learn", because if you are always adding new stuff and do not stop practicing learned stuff, you will inevitably run out of practice time.


I was acting 'dumb' on purpose. You guys fell into my trap fairly easily. :Coffee: 

But I could not agree more with your answers. 

There is a psychological aspect as others have said which brings to mind a good story (again using myself as the dummie, ha, ha.)

I was at a workshop at the Classical Mandolin Society of Am. The instructor, who will remain nameless, but he is well known. He had people play an A note, anywhere on the fretboard. We were to 'go around the room' each of us playing one note. There were over thirty players in the room, so we had plenty of time to look for a note on our instruments. But when he pointed to me, _I froze and could not do it!_ 
I did this three or four times, and he got a little miffed at me. This was 'easy peazy' I'd been on really tough gigs before in all kinds of situations but when he pointed, I melted.  Now I don't know if I can _ever say hello to the guy in the future_. It was very embarrassing.

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## Mark Gunter

> I may be very late to this topic and I need to read more of this thread, but I use a pencil and a scrap of paper and try to write out from memory things like the circle of fifths, patterns of scales in TAB as well as on my hand drawn fretboard chart of 5 or 6 frets.
> 
> My wife said the other day, 'You don't know your chords because you don't practice them, you noodle all day with melody'. Ouch!
> But she had a point. And it is the same in learning the fretboard. If I don't work at it, it won't get better. 
> 
> The hard part is in having patience with myself. There is just too much to learn. (She has a 30 year 'head start' so 'closing the gap' is all I can hope for. My personal best is the goal; most of the time. Ha, ha.)


Hey Doug, not sure where you were acting dumb on purpose, your anecdotes seem just human to me. I agree that we can't learn the fretboard without some effort. I recently decided to work at it, and was reading old posts for encouragement when I resurrected this old thread. I've got my teeth into it now. It's an important task in my opinion.





> Mark,
> 
> By trying to disprove my argument, you are demonstrating that it is not just an opinion; an opinion cannot be proven wrong.
> 
> I am hoping that 2017 will be the year that Americans learn the difference between an opinion and an argument. Opinions do not require facts or reason. Arguments do. 
> 
> Huge difference.
> 
> It's fine if you disagree with me, and great if you prove me wrong--because I will be the better for it. But when everything is "just an opinion", truth becomes a popularity contest. Don't be wishy washy. If you think someone is wrong, explain why and own your argument, while also being open to the possibility that you could be wrong.


Hi Jon, I'm usually open to the possibility that I could be wrong, and concerning the task at hand I haven't mastered it and have no advice as yet for anyone seeking to master it. I'm in learning mode here, and have been happy to consider all suggestions made here and elsewhere. I have nowhere tried to disprove your argument, but rather have quoted remarks that I felt at the time warranted a response, and hoped to illuminate the difference between facts and conclusions. I think you may state conclusions that amount to your opinion as though they are facts. I'll give you this: You are both obstinate and confident. 

I downloaded Anki software last night as well as the deck you linked to in your Classified Ad post. Set the timer for five minutes, and began last night with it, spent another five minutes today. I am hoping that it will help me learn the notes cold. This is one of my current goals on my newbie mandolin journey.

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## DougC

Go Mark!  We are with you.

I'm sure JonZ is with us too. Just different assumptions, based on the brief amount of information here. 

I have some nice software but I'll have to check on the exact names. It helps, but you have to do the work. (My book and pencil seem to be the best at making progress however).

----------

Mark Gunter

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## DougC

Ah ha! I found them. 
The first is exactly focused on learning the fretboard. 
Included in the software is an article that really makes you feel like this author really knows you and he understands. There is no doubt that he 'has your number' and there is no doubt that you need to do your work. Period. I need to read it again and get more humble. Ha, ha.
It is called the Absolute Fretboard Trainer

http://www.absolutefretboard.com/aft/mandolin.asp

The other is about learning chords and music theory. Scott Sharp is the author and he has a ton of videos along with a digital method 'book'. This guy is just a darned good organizer. Which is what I need...

This is called the Fretboard Toolbox

http://www.fretboard-toolbox.com/mandolin.html

I also have a good music theory book that someone at mandolin cafe mentioned. It is a gem of a book. Not too pedantic and dry. Not incomplete or weird either. 
*Music Theory for Practical People by Ed Roseman*

And then there is my wife who has taught violin for many years and often makes me feel darned humble. (Thanks Judith!)

All the best.
Doug

----------


## jshane

Well. In a different vein-- 

one of the things I found to be helpful in learning to use the keyboard (which may be different than being able to recite the keyboard) was to locate significant major and minor chord fingerings WITHIN the FFCP patterns as played across all 4 string-pairs. With this, in any given key and FFCP pattern OF that key, I was able to visualize the I, ii, iii, IV, V vi and dim vii chord shapes that were embedded within that FFCP pattern as expressed across the keyboard. I'm still working with this, but have so far found it to be very helpful-- particularly when faced with playing along to a new progression.

Maybe this is old hat, but it was an eye-opener to me.

----------

DougC

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## Bill Findley

"...standard bluegrass shapes and licks..." Wow, what I'd give to know a bunch more of those.

I'ma keep on pluggin'

Bill

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## Mark Gunter

Doug, that software, _absolute fretboard_, looks nice, but I won't check it out due to the $50 cost - I'm not thrilled about using software rather than the actual mandolin fretboard to start with. It appears that _absolute fretboard_ charts your progress with a color-coded display, but the description doesn't indicate that it has logic so that software will focus more on the red areas than the green. Maybe it has this logic, but I can't imagine the developer not stating that. 

I plan to try the free solution JonZ mentioned (I started with it last night) for five minutes a day, along with my own work on the mandolin itself. It is a free solution with logic to serve you more of the hard stuff as you progress. If it doesn't help, I might consider another software, but I am of the opinion that time on the mandolin is the most important thing. Five minutes in a single software memory game is enough for me.

The Fretboard toolbox people have interesting stuff, I've see some of their stuff on here before and on YouTube. Do you use any of their offerings?

Edited: I see from your earlier post that you do have something from Fretboard toolbox for learning chords and music theory. Hopefully it has been helpful to you.

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## JonZ

As you use that Anki deck, the important thing is to rate yourself for instant recall. If you know it instantly, it is "good". If you need two beats to remember it, it is "hard". If you have to derive the answer, fail the card.

If you don't know the answer right away, go ahead and try to figure it out. Then check your answer. But rate the "ease" of the card based on how successful you are isn't that first instant.

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## Ivan Kelsall

The way i taught myself to play mandolin is the same way that i taught myself to play banjo & guitar & it works (or did for me). I really would encourage new players to search for _''the sounds''_ on the fingerboard - forget _the names_ of the notes for the time being,they will come along in due course. You really don't need to know the 'names of the notes' in order to find them & play them,but when you _do_ find the place where the right note(s) is,make a note (no pun intended) of it's name. Over time,you'll know where the sounds are *&* their names. I never made any_ consious_ effort to ''learn the names'' of the notes,but i can name 'em all. Play the music & the rest will come,
                                                                                       Ivan :Wink:

----------

Jess L., 

jshane, 

Trav'linmando

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## jshane

> .... Play the music & the rest will come,
>                                                                                        Ivan



I think this is really true.

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## DougC

I am 'matching up the sounds' to the names of the notes. A good comment, know the sounds first. 

Like anything else, a quick review is not an in depth study. The software I suggested goes much farther than a quick look indicates.e.g. the color coding indicates how many wrong answers.  The guys that wrote both of thoes programs really know their stuff. _So if you don't work at it, it won't help you._ But I understand the need for something 'free'.

My favorite 'free' online program with 'flash card' like functions is: 
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons

_There is plenty of 'free' advice right here. I could spend all day just working on some of them! 
_

----------

Mark Gunter

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## Pete Martin

1) Major scales in every key, all positions.  

2) Major, minor and dominant seven arpeggios in every key.  

3) If you also play jazz, then arpeggios for sixth, major seventh, minor seventh, minor sixth, minor/major seventy, diminished and half diminished chords.

4) scales for all chords in 3) above.

----------

Mark Gunter

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## Bill Findley

JonZ, just downloaded your Anki cards -- works great for me, an intermediate player who knows quite a few BG and Oldtime tunes but hasn't felt the need to really know the fretboard till recently. Like the simple format. Thank you!

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## JeffD

> With this, in any given key and FFCP pattern OF that key, I was able to visualize the I, ii, iii, IV, V vi and dim vii chord shapes that were embedded within that FFCP pattern as expressed across the keyboard. .


This kind of thing, the fretboard pattern that can be used in any key, is of more immediate use than being able to recite the keyboard. 

Peter Martin's comment is spot on, you eventually have to be able to do all that and more. But by.... well no buts. Ya just gotta.

Learning the patterns that can be taken up and down and across the fret board, I think is a way of "getting there" that produces immediate fruit, the immediate ability to do something useful in every key. And of course the feeling of competence that will keep you in the game fighting. Because the focus is on being useful and making music up the neck.

What to call the stuff you learn, what letter names apply when, well that comes. But, YMMV, but I think being able to do stuff and not know what to call it is a better transition place than to be able to name all kinds of stuff you can't do. I mean neither one is the complete musician, but if you have to choose....

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## Mark Gunter

> This kind of thing, the fretboard pattern that can be used in any key, is of more immediate use than being able to recite the keyboard. 
> 
> Peter Martin's comment is spot on, you eventually have to be able to do all that and more. But by.... well no buts. Ya just gotta.
> 
> Learning the patterns that can be taken up and down and across the fret board, I think is a way of "getting there" that produces immediate fruit, the immediate ability to do something useful in every key. And of course the feeling of competence that will keep you in the game fighting. Because the focus is on being useful and making music up the neck.
> 
> What to call the stuff you learn, what letter names apply when, well that comes. But, YMMV, but I think being able to do stuff and not know what to call it is a better transition place than to be able to name all kinds of stuff you can't do. I mean neither one is the complete musician, but if you have to choose....


Don't know who would have an argument with you there, Jeff. Maybe some or most of the guys who are interested in learning the notes cold are already learning patterns and playing up the neck. I guess I just don't see mutual exclusivity here. One (and only one) of my goals this year is to learn the notes of the fretboard cold. I see it as a worthy thing, and if I fail this year, no harm done. It won't stop me from learning patterns or tunes or ... anything else I put my musical hand to. I'd imagine that there are others who feel the same. Variety, spice, you know, all that stuff.

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## zedmando

This is one thing I still need to know better--I know the guitar & bass fretboards so well--and since the mandolin is flipped I tend to think of it that way--just flip it in my head--but I want to be able to do that without flipping it--I sort of do that--so some good info here...

Thanks,

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## JeffD

> I guess I just don't see mutual exclusivity here. One (and only one) of my goals this year is to learn the notes of the fretboard cold..


No, you are right, they are not, (or need not be) mutually exclusive. I think I am also reacting to a a few folks I know personally, one on mandolin and two on guitar, who seem to be delaying getting up the neck thinking they need to learn the notes of the fretboard first.

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## JonZ

I have made improvements to the Learn the Mandolin Fretboard Intelligent Flashcards and updated the classified add. (See below.)

If you try the deck, post here how well or poorly it worked for you. I will try to improve it based on feedback.

If you already started with the first version, you might want to abandon it and restart with this one, because it will teach you all of the enharmonic equivalents. If you rate the items you know well as "easy" they will quickly be sorted to a less frequent review schedule.

The images below show sample questions with their answers under them.

 

These flashcards will teach you every note on the mandolin fretboard. Given a location on the fretboard, you will be able to name the note(s). Given a string and note name, you will be able to find the location. The deck is to be used with the Anki flashcard program, which schedules cards for review based on how well you know them.

Download Anki here: http://ankisrs.net/download/ and install it. 

Then download the deck here: https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1339226410

The reason this system is superior to any apps currently available is that it presents reviews according to how hard an item is for you. You do not waste time reviewing what you already know.

Send me a message if you have any questions.

Improvements in Version 2.0

The fretboard now shows all 24 frets.

The fretboard more accurately represents a real fretboard, with marker dot at fret 10, only 1 marker past the 12th fret, and a small Florida extension.

Deck includes all enharmonic equivalents.

A blank fretboard is given with all "locate the note" questions to give you an image to imagine the note position on. This might help your memory.

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## SteveMurtha

A more fun way to learn the fretboard is to capo the 3rd fret and play some familiar tunes. Phrases that go below the low Bb can be "folded" up an octave.Next capo the 5th fret and play the same tunes. Next 7th fret, etc.

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## Mark Gunter

> If you try the deck, post here how well or poorly it worked for you. I will try to improve it based on feedback.


I've been using this tool at the recommended 5 minutes per day setting, and it has been helpful. I have been unable to remember to do it every day, so my progress with the app has been retarded a bit, but it has helped me progress to the extent I continue to use it.




> A blank fretboard is given with all "locate the note" questions to give you an image to imagine the note position on. This might help your memory.


If I'm understanding this correctly, the format now shows the fretboard for all the questions rather than string number/fret number, then this is the improvement that I need with these cards. I'll download the new deck and continue with the app. Thank you for making this available.

EDIT:
JonZ, what is the significance of the 1, 2, 3, 4 that appears below this deck? Does it come with four variations, if so, can you explain what the difference?

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## JonZ

There are two types of cards: locate the note and name the note(s).

The prompt is still a string number and note name for "locate the note". But now I show a blank fretboard so you can mentally picture the note on the fretboard before checking the answer, to help imprint the image in your memory. In theory, you could imagine the fretboard with the note location in your mind, but I found it difficult to do so. So the image helps me. When I use the deck, I have my mandolin on, and I first find the note on the mandolin and say it, and then imagine it on the blank fretboard. You could do either, or both in the opposite order. I can't really say which is best.

"Name the note(s)" cards show a fretboard with a dot on one string/fret coordinate to prompt you to name the note (D), or notes (C# Db) when there are enharmonic equivalents.

The apps I have seen require you to select either sharps or flats to practice, but I think it is better to train yourself to think of both enharmonic equivalents at the same time.

The sub decks 1, 2, 3 and 4 contain all the cards that make up the main deck divided into four zones. This allows the notes in the first six frets to be introduced randomly, then the next six frets, etc. So you do not start the next zone until you have seen all the notes in the zone that precedes it. Eventually all of the cards become mixed, but I thought people might be a little more comfortable working their way up the neck one zone at a time at first.

The user can ignore the sub decks. Just open the main deck and it will take you through them.

I accidentally set my deck for a 15 minute time frame, and it worked fine. So you can increase the time, if you want to complete the process sooner. It's just a question of how much of your daily practice time you want to spend on this. Or you could set the deck to add a certain number of unseen cards a day, and stop when you have gotten all your daily reviews correct. Five new cards a day would move you along. Do whatever works for you, and adjust as necessary. All of these settings can be accessed through the "Options" button in the main deck.

The most important thing is to grade yourself accurately. If your goal is instant recall, then one second to find the note is "good", two seconds is "hard" and anything else is "again". You shouldn't be thinking "C is here, so this is C#". You are "good" at C# when it just pops into your mind. Be a tough grader on yourself. Probably no cards will be "easy".

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## Mark Gunter

JonZ, is it possible to filter so that you only view 'name the note' cards, and vice versa?

I agree, thinking of both enharmonic equivalents is a good feature, as some of them give me pause to do mental calculation of the alphabet at present.

----------


## JonZ

There are a number of ways to separate the cards into groups, but it is a little more complicated than I can fully address here. I will tell you how to sort the cards into find and name groups. Then you can look at the manual to decide whether you want to

_Suspend_ and then unsuspend one group. (Easiest way if you will rarely separate the cards.)Add _tags_ and create _custom study_ sessions. (A little more work to set up, but will let you separate quicker if you will be doing it often.)_Export_ the cards into two separate decks. (Use this if you always want to study them separately.)


To sort the cards into the two card types.

Open the main deck.Click the Browse button.Click the Search button.Click Sort Field at the top of the left most column.


This will sort the cards by what is in the first field. All of the cards that start with Paste are name cards. All of the cards that start with a note name are find cards. As you scroll down the list, you will see where one group stops and the other begins. Dragging the cursor across a group of cards will select them. Now you can look at the manual to do one of the procedures I listed above.

https://apps.ankiweb.net/docs/manual.html

The best practices I have seen recommend keeping cards mixed for best learning results.

----------

Mark Gunter

----------


## Don Julin

I have been using a series of drills to teach the location and names of notes on the fingerboard. Step one is to understand the musical alphabet or chromatic scale. (no sharps or flats between b-c and e-f) Next, memorize the open strings. The concept is to take one note and find that note on all four strings. What makes it challenging is that you are doing this to a metronome allowing four clicks per note. Let's say you are looking for the note G#. You play the G# on the G string, which would be the first fret. Then immediately start looking for the G# on the D string (6th fret) and prepare to play it in time with the metronome, giving each note the value of four clicks. So every four clicks you should be moving to the next note. Do this with all 12 notes and over a period of time you will surely know the locations of all of the notes on your mandolin fingerboard. I have recently uploaded a six part video series covering this method complete with practice tracks at Mandolins Heal The World. Remember that notes are like people in that the appreciate it when you remember their names.

----------

DougC, 

guidoStow, 

John MacPhee, 

Mark Gunter

----------


## Mark Gunter

Thanks Don, there is not much out there offering a systematic way to practice/accomplish this. You're the man!

----------


## Pittsburgh Bill

Try practice exercises from one of the TEACH YOURSELF TO PLAY MANDOLIN books. I starterd ith ALFREDS.

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## JonZ

The issue I have with Don's video is that you are learning a "route", rather than simply learning where each note is. The routes for many notes will be very similar: up this many frets, down this many frets, etc. This type of practice is why you see people who always start their phrases on the G string; that is the route they have practiced. You may eventually learn where all the notes are, but it is not what you are primarily practicing.

It is a useful thing to learn how to move among the notes from string to string, as it can help orient you for position shifting. But you will get better results if change routes when one becomes easy: 1234, 1324, 2341, 4321, etc. You will get even better results if you keep track of the difficulty of each note, and practice hard ones more, easy ones less, and mastered ones not at all.

----------

DougC

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## Quinlan

I just got this book. Bluegrass Mandolin for the Complete Ignoramus! https://g.co/kgs/QBpDwV  instead of fret numbers on the tab he uses note names. Great songs and instructions/tips

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## Quinlan

Sorry this is the proper link. http://nativeground.com/product/bluegrass

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## DougC

Since we are all suggesting our favorite method sources. I'll pitch _Stephen Wilson_ at AbsoluteFretboard.com He has many ways to study the fretboard and musical keys and staff notation. Far more that any I've seen so far. 

The best part however is his 'philosophy' page where he demonstrates that he knows where you are and describes how and why you are lazy and have huge gaps in your abilities. He has 'been there and done that'. _It is worth being humiliated and shamed sometimes. Ha, ha. 
_
His software shows a large mandolin fret board with a small music staff. You learn the notes of the staff by hovering the pointer over a fret. It highlights the note on the staff. This alone is worth the price.  You can show notes on the fretboard in all the keys, or learn just the notes in a 'range' from say, fret 7 to 12 or just across all strings on fret 6 for example. You can change the strings to mandola CGDA and learn that stuff. All the notes make a sound. Many exercises involve 'call and response' where a note appears on the fretboard and you chose the correct name or play along. There are progress charts.  It goes on and on. 

And he has the same software for guitar and other instruments. And now I think he has email lessons. 

Absolute Fretboard Trainer 

http://www.absolutefretboard.com/aft/mandolin.asp


Now how's that for a 'pitch'?  Really I have no connection except that I'm pretty impressed with the stuff. 

Oh, I almost forgot.  The easiest method is to *leave your tuner on* and *play notes* on the instrument to *see what it says*. VERY EFFECTIVE.

----------


## JonZ

Doug,

Did you learn the fretboard with ABT? I ask because I tried it and found it lacking. It has a lot of features, and potential to be a good program, but I got bogged down in it. Even though the program will track how well you know the notes, it does not schedule review based on this information. So, if there are only five notes in the first position that you need to work on, you generally have to practice the whole first position to review them. So you end up wasting time reviewing what you already know.

I know I am being negative about methods other than my own, but I developed the (free) flash card system to solve what I feel is the problem with other methods. AFT uses a "brute force" approach. It has you review all of the notes in a lot of different patterns. But this becomes tedious because the better you get, the more your time is spent reviewing what you already know.

Practice is most effective when what you are practicing is not so easy that it bores you and not so difficult that it frustrates you. I think AFT could be a great program if it presented notes for review based on how hard they are for you. Since it tracks this information, I am puzzled as to why it doesn't. (I even wrote to the vendor to request this feature.) The color coding of notes is helpful, but it gives you pretty limited control, and it doesn't take into account how long it has been since you last reviewed a note.

I see this problem come up in a lot of practice recommendations. I cringe whenever someone says "Do this through the circle fifths", because it is "foolish completeness". If I can play an exercise in G effortlessly, I am not going to practice it again today just to complete the circle. I think this type of advice causes practice bloat, and is one of the main reasons people feel that they do not have enough time to practice, and quit.

Do you get what I'm saying?

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## Mark Gunter

JonZ, your post was directed at Doug, but I'm happy to play the devil's advocate with you once again.




> I know I am being negative about methods other than my own ... Practice is most effective when what you are practicing is not so easy that it bores you and not so difficult that it frustrates you. ... Do you get what I'm saying?


OMG, Doug's been following this thread for awhile, I can't imagine that he's failed to understand your points. It's great to be passionate about your creation, and to be pleased or proud about the gaps it may have filled that remain other systems, but do you have to tout it on every page of this thread? Your points are taken, _ad nauseum_.

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## jshane

I have been following this thread from its beginning, and I have to say that I am pretty much astounded at how complicated-sounding it has become. 

I mean think about it. There are 4 strings, and 12 fretting positions (including open) before repetition. That is 48 TOTAL things to memorize. In perspective, that is less than memorizing the times tables all the way up to "5 times 10 is 50".

Learning scales and arpeggios adds complexity, but it is like the periodic table of the elements--- no one but first-year chemistry students even TRY to memorize it without context. It becomes second nature when you have looked up the atomic weight of calcium so many times that it sticks in your head-- i.e., you memorize it by USING it.

Arguing about which method of memorizing 48 items-- items that are visually right in front of you- seems absurd. "Jest muckle into 'er son", as my old friend might say.

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Jess L., 

Mark Gunter, 

Phil Goodson

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## JonZ

> JonZ, your post was directed at Doug, but I'm happy to play the devil's advocate with you once again.
> OMG, Doug's been following this thread for awhile, I can't imagine that he's failed to understand your points. It's great to be passionate about your creation, and to be pleased or proud about the gaps it may have filled that remain other systems, but do you have to tout it on every page of this thread? Your points are taken, _ad nauseum_.


Sorry if I have been too long-winded or persistent. I find AFT to be particularly egregious about wasting peoples' time, and it isn't cheap.

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## JonZ

> I have been following this thread from its beginning, and I have to say that I am pretty much astounded at how complicated-sounding it has become. 
> 
> I mean think about it. There are 4 strings, and 12 fretting positions (including open) before repetition. That is 48 TOTAL things to memorize. In perspective, that is less than memorizing the times tables all the way up to "5 times 10 is 50".
> 
> Learning scales and arpeggios adds complexity, but it is like the periodic table of the elements--- no one but first-year chemistry students even TRY to memorize it without context. It becomes second nature when you have looked up the atomic weight of calcium so many times that it sticks in your head-- i.e., you memorize it by USING it.
> 
> Arguing about which method of memorizing 48 items-- items that are visually right in front of you- seems absurd. "Jest muckle into 'er son", as my old friend might say.


It depends on how well you want to learn the fretboard. Some people would say that there are even fewer than 48 things to memorize, because if you know where A is, you know where A# is, and so on.

But if you really want to be able to name the note(s) at any location instantly, and find any note on any string in any octave instantly, including all enharmonic equivalents, there are 326 different things to learn.

While to some extent learning A gives you A# right next to it, and C is the same as B#, and being able to _find_ C on the first string is like being able to _name_ C when it is pointed to, and the first octave is the same as the second octave... in practice this is not the same as learning each item. And the differences become magnified the faster you want to be able to recall them. 

Can you really point to F on the second string in the upper octave, as quickly as you can in the lower octave? Try it.

Having gone through this process, I can tell you that every note you learn helps you to learn other notes, but you still have to learn and practice naming and locating every note to get equally good at all of them.

Whether you _should_ be able to name and find all notes all the way up to the 24th fret, instantly, is another question. There are many great musicians who cannot do it. Also, there is something to be said for just learning notes as you need them. (If you don't need 'em, why learn 'em?)

On the other hand, it is not that hard to learn all of them at speed. It took me about three hours of 15 minute sessions to be able to do it. It will still require review to make the skill permanent, but the length of the review sessions will decrease and the spacing of review sessions will increase over time, until they trail off to nothing.

Drilling notes into memory and using the notes in context are complimentary. If you have them memorized, it will be easier to use them in context. If you use them in context, you will remember them better.

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## Don Julin

> The issue I have with Don's video is that you are learning a "route", rather than simply learning where each note is.


Sorry Jon but it doesn't seem that you are fully understanding this system if you believe that this is a simply a "route". In fact this is the complete opposite of that approach if you spend the time working through the drills that are part of the video course. By finding the same note on all four strings in ascending and descending patterns followed by incorporating arpeggios (combinations of notes) and then extending this to chord shapes and scale patterns you get the best of both worlds. You learn the patterns that everyone shows you (with I think is your "route") but by searching on each string for a specific location you will memorize were the notes are. The only thing about drills like these is that simply talking about it won't accomplish the desired results, you actually need to put the time in to reap the rewards. Once you know the notes, you won't ever forget them.




> It is a useful thing to learn how to move among the notes from string to string, as it can help orient you for position shifting. But you will get better results if change routes when one becomes easy: 1234, 1324, 2341, 4321, etc. You will get even better results if you keep track of the difficulty of each note, and practice hard ones more, easy ones less, and mastered ones not at all.


This is what I would consider a scale, sequence of notes, or a pattern. These are also a very useful part of mandolin playing but these fingering exercises don't require knowing the actual names of the notes. I have seen thousands of mandolin players that could make their fingers go up and down the fingerboard without knowing the names of the notes. In fact that discourages learning the names of the notes as you will be noodling up and down those scales thinking you sounds great without knowing the names of the notes. 

Consider this: How many times do you need to drive to the grocery store before you know how to get there? Getting to the same store from another location will be a new experience so your memorized route won't do you much good. You will need to figure it out again from a different starting point. Driving to Walmart is a different location and by driving there a few times, you can remember how to get there also. After a few times, you won't need a map or a GPS. You did not learn how to get there by memorizing and visiting every building on the road, you went directly to one specific location and learned it's location. Now that you know two locations, I could tell you that the hardware store is one block east of the grocery store and with that information, you could most likely find the hardware store. Eventually you learned how to get around and you can meet all of your needs in everyday life. It is my belief that by actually working through this method, you will learn the names of the notes on your mandolin fingerboard. 

Remember that notes are like people in that they like it when we remember their name.

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John MacPhee

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## SincereCorgi

I come from a classical background, so I find some of this discussion a little weird. For me, the actual name of a note and its position is maybe 1/4th of what makes it musically useful. You can find the same notes at different spots on the neck, so the problem is: *given a passage of written sheet music, do you know the notes well enough that you can think of sensible ways to connect them in the moment given the limitations of the shape of your hand?*

I think the best way of learning the notes is probably 1) a certain amount of 'brute force' memorization using an app like Fret Tester followed by 2) guided scale studies in which you practice moving patterns around the neck while saying/singing the note names in each position. The problem of course, being, that these are extremely dull things to do and most students would quit lessons if they spent their good money and were made to do interval drills instead of learning 'Fisher's Hornpipe' or something.

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## JonZ

Don,

I may have gotten your course's methodology wrong, because I only saw that one exercise.

My overall point is that the better you learn a pattern, or "route", the less you have to know the individual locations on that route independently of the route. Also, the more movable a route is, the less it will help you learn points on that route independent of the route. B on the 4th string to B on the 3rd string is "up 5 frets"; so is C to C. If I memorize "up 4 frets", I don't have to memorize where C is on the 3rd string, once I know the rule and the starting points.

For some this is enough. They don't want to "know" where C is on the 3rd string, but they want to be able to "find" C on the 3rd string. They can find it by thinking "up 4 frets from the C on the 4th string."

When I suggested changing the route--1234, 4321, 2314, etc.--what I meant was do your exercise of finding a note on each string, but follow different routes. So don't just go ascending and descending, but also starting from 3 or 2, skip strings, change direction etc. That way you really have to know where each note is without relying on a route. (Maybe you get to something like that in the rest of your lessons.)

Patterns are great. As I said, being able to move root to root is very useful. I just don't think patterns ar the best way to memorize note names and locations to the point of instant recall.

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Don Julin

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## jshane

Ok.  

I feel I know the fretboard. If you ask me to find any note on any string I can do it, essentially instantaneously. If you point to any string/fret position, I can name the note. (I only memorized this up to the 12th fret 'cause after that I pretend that I am playing an itty-bitty mandolin that starts at the 12th fret... I mean, really...).

This certainly helps in sight reading. It helps me figure out new/interesting chord voicing more quickly. Beyond that, I guess I am wondering what good this really does me? I never use it when playing a song I know and I never ever use it when improvising. THINKING INTELLECTUALLY about the music is absolutely antithetical to creating with my hands and mandolin the music that I am hearing in my head (which is my goal when improvising). Does anyone actually think, " ... hey, next note I am going to play is going to be a C#, so there it is... gosh I am glad I could remember that position quickly...".

Seems like the original poster asked simply for a method to help learn the fretboard. I'm thinking that if the OP spent the same amount of time memorizing the fretboard as in reading this thread, the task would be finished. It is just not that big a deal, and, while I agree it has merit, is not actually going to contribute much to one's overall musical ability, other than to improve sight reading, and speed up learning new material--both of which are laudable, but not deal-breakers in my opinion.

Others, obviously, may feel differently.

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Don Julin, 

Jess L.

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