# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  What is a Celtic mandolin?

## nkforster

A few weeks ago I asked about few friends and on the forums (including here) who their favourite "Celtic" players were. Ive since asked some of these players their opinions about the instrument. The replies were great, and too much for just one article, but for now Ive written a post for my blog entitled "What is a "Celtic" mandolin?

Here is a link:

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/celtic-mandolin/

Thanks to all those who contributed,

Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

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Ben Cooper, 

Billbass1, 

GreenMTBoy, 

James Rankine, 

Mark Gunter, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Matt DeBlass, 

whistler

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## Ben Cooper

Great article!  Very informative.  Thanks for posting it!

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## JH Murray

Thanks for this. I own a celtic mandolin, made in the style of a Sobell, by Nathan Curry, a luthier here in Canada. It rings like a bell. Every now and then I find myself dreaming of an F style instrument, but articles like this remind me that I already have the instrument which delivers the sound I qualities I am looking for.

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## kmmando

Do you have a picture or video of this instrument? I'd love to hear it.

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## JH Murray

Here's an album of the instrument. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/al...p?albumid=1361
My playing is more at the novice level so I don't have any quality examples of its sound.

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## mikeyes

A thoughtful article, Nigel, and it brings up some good points.  I am taking the mandolin class at the Milwaukee Irishfest Summer school right now and Martin Howley is playing an F style Collings which he says suits the stage a lot better than the very nice Shapiro he was playing.   The sound is not very authentic on this video taken with my iphone, but here is a sample




Mike Keyes

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## ptritz

Hmmm....everyone's entitled to his/her own opinion, of course, and the opinions of a builder a skilled as Mr. Forster are certainly worth listening to and considering.  But I don't agree with the idea that carved top instruments are inherently superior to flat-topped instruments.  Different, certainly, and depending on taste different people may prefer one or the other, but in my view that doesn't make one or the other "superior".  And I think it's really going a bit too far to suggest that when a flat-topped instrument turns out to be good it's mostly a matter of chance rather than being attributable to the builder's skill.

Just my opinion of course, and others are welcome to disagree. 

Pete

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Bob Clark, 

GarY Nava, 

steve V. johnson, 

Wink Dinkerson, 

zoukboy

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## nkforster

> The sound is not very authentic on this video taken with my iphone, but here is a sample
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike Keyes


Great sound, great playing. The "authentic" sound though is one of the points my article is about. A certain sound has only become "authentic" because of association. British and Irish musicians of the 70s used what was available, which was rarely an F5. 

I wouldn't worry, the mandolin sounds great, and if you and your F5 can project the way some do, you'll be ahead in he session "arms race."

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

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## nkforster

> Hmmm....everyone's entitled to his/her own opinion, of course, and the opinions of a builder a skilled as Mr. Forster are certainly worth listening to and considering.  But I don't agree with the idea that carved top instruments are inherently superior to flat-topped instruments.  Different, certainly, and depending on taste different people may prefer one or the other, but in my view that doesn't make one or the other "superior".  And I think it's really going a bit too far to suggest that when a flat-topped instrument turns out to be good it's mostly a matter of chance rather than being attributable to the builder's skill.
> 
> Just my opinion of course, and others are welcome to disagree. 
> 
> Pete


A perfectly valid point of view Pete. Luke Plumb also speaks up on behalf of flat topped instruments in the article. I also acknowledge in the piece that many like the sound of a flat top. 

I don't know your background, but in manufacturing instruments once you get below a certain price, you have to "get it done, and get it out the door." 

It's still possible to find western made instruments for less than £1000, or not far off. At this price point, there simply is no time for the finer subtleties of instrument making. A sizeable part of the "making" time is consumed in finishing and set up alone. Dimensions must be standardised to give reasonable results and few warranty issues. And like all instruments made in this fashion, some will be terrible, some will be great, but most will be between. The maker has little say in the matter. 

So yes, my experience has been that the vast majority of cheaper work I've seen (which
is by default, flat topped, due to the ease of manufacture) and played has been poor. 

That said, carving a top won't necessarily ensure a superior instrument, that too depends on the design, the arching, thicknessing and the skill of the maker. 

The good news is that even in a tiny market like the "Celtic" or folk world, there are enough instruments available at every price point for players to get what they feel is right for them.

 And as I say in the post,

"In the end its all down to preferences, and what a working pro musician like Luke Plumb requires from an instrument (he plays a very nice Gilchrist F5 model) may well differ from what someone wants who plays down the pub on a Sunday night and doesnt want to worry about it getting damaged if the person next to them has had one too many sherbets."

Personally, I'd think twice before taking a £20,000 Gilchrist to the Cumberland Arms on a Sunday night! 


Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

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## mikeyes

Part of the history of Irish music (and possibly other similar musics) has been the use of cast-off instruments such as diatonic flutes, concertinas, bodhrans and even mandolins - cast-off because they either went out of style or more sophisticated instruments were developed.   This was a matter of economics in a poor musical country but those same style instruments will now cost thousands for the same reason that the market for quality is there but small.
Better instruments are designated so because in the mind of most players they are better.  I just played a session last night filled with fiddles and flutes all trying to make an impression on the famous session leader.  The result peaked at 93 db (phone app) and my mandolin was only heard when I played in the lull (although I could hear it. ) I play a Gibson F5 and I am sure that neither my A-2 nor my Weber Bighorn would have been heard at all and both of these are carved instruments of quality.
On the other hand, in a small group, I like the sound of my A-2 because it is sweet and full sounding- properties that don't mean much at over 80 db.  
There is no signature "Celtic" sound for mandolins as far as I can tell, but there are horses for courses and that is the reason you see so many players go for the louder instruments.  The F hole carved topped mandolin has been in development for almost 100 years now from Gibson and others who have been taking ideas from each other and making improvements.  The original Loar design was for playing classical and popular music in concerts without amplification and in a good hall you can hear one in the back rows just like a good violin.  No other mandolin building style has had that kind of legacy or deliberate variation based on the work of others.
That's not to say that you should go out and buy a top of the line carved instrument for Irish music, but you should consider it if you plan on playing in noise or on stage mostly because that is what a lot of others have concluded.  Here is Marla Fibish on stage with her 1921 A-2:




In the class room this instrument projected well and it worked in a small session nicely.  Of course, no one in their right mind was going to drowned her out because they wanted to hear her  :Grin: 

Mike

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GreenMTBoy, 

steve V. johnson

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## Boatswain

Hi guys~ long time reading, first time posting. 
Anyways, great article Nigel! There is not much literature out there on "Celtic" mandolin, and it is great to see some. 

About 15 years ago, I was at my aunt's house in Stockholm where she had had an old mandolin hanging on the wall for several decades. Once every blue moon she would take it down and play me a tune. One day when I was a kid, she gave me the mandolin. Around the same time, the movie "Titanic" came out and I saw the band Gaelic Storm performing (that was my favorite part in that movie), and one of the guys had a mandolin. That was my introduction to "Irish music". 
I then ransacked "Napster" (back in the days when it was legal in the US) for "Irish" music. I discovered Planxty and again I was exposed to the mandolin in Irish music. 
To make a long story short, I was under the impression the entire time that the mandolin and/or CBOM had a much longer history in ITM than it actually does due to the fact that my aunt would play me a tune on the mandolin, Titanic had one, and I stumbled on Planxty. Thing is, my aunt's mandolin, the one in the movie Titanic, and the one Andy Irvine used to use on some of those old Planxty recordings are not what we would consider today as "Celtic" mandolins; however, their style of playing certainly fit the bill. 


In my opinion, the first and foremost is skill/ability. Although I agree with Nigel that there is a lot to be said about association, if an extremely skilled player has a $109.99 ("with gig bag, picks, and tutorial!") eBay "sun burst" mandolin, he can probably still crank out a tune better than I can on my Sobell. 

So, IMHO skill and style is what defines the "Celtic" mandolin first and foremost; however, I think there certainly is a "Celtic" sound to a "Celtic" mandolin that is quite different from most American mandolins. Also, gotta have that onion shape! But none of that is ever going to replace skill and style of playing.

All in all, I love the so-called "Celtic" mandolin. I think Sobell/Forster style mandolins' sound has pretty much defined what we think a Celtic mandolin should sound like and look like, and honestly I think have the best sound for ITM, but all of that gets thrown out of the window if a player has no skill. 

Nigel, that Celtic mandolin you make is very bad ass. I want to order one in a few years time when I am done with school!

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## Marty Jacobson

Cool stuff. There definitely are two aspects here - the Celtic Mandolin as an instrument, and Celtic Mandolin as a style.

Simon Mayer has long made a Gibson-style mandolin sound at home with Celtic-style music, and let's not forget Swarb's contributions using his pumpkin-top Gibson A.

But the Sobell-style Celtic mandolin, to which Graham MacDonald has done a good service to by documenting his approach to building, definitely has a distinct and appealing voice.

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## kmmando

A Stefan Sobell mandolin, 1983 vintage.

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Nick Gellie

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## kmmando

And Dagger's 10 string Sobell

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## foldedpath

This idea of a "Celtic" mandolin is a pet peeve of mine. So Nigel, forgive me for jumping in, once again.
 :Wink: 

Let's start (once again) with something I've posted before over in the session.org forum (and here, I think) about what little we know of the mandolin in Irish traditional music before Planxty and similar bands came on the scene. This is a quote from the Chieftains authorized biography, about the music environment fiddler Martin Fay grew up in (page 39):




> "As a young boy Martin remembers hearing his uncle Andy Kelly, who was a famous mandolin player in traditional circles. But the music didn't impress the young boy any more than the other kinds of music he was hearing at the time."


Martin Fay was born in 1936 and raised in Dublin. If he had an uncle who had already established a reputation as a famous mandolin player when he was a young boy, then it had to be at least somewhat popular in Irish trad as far back as the 1930s and maybe the 1920s. Was his mandolin... whatever it was... not "Celtic" enough?

With due respect to Nigel's blog post (and there's a lot of great info there!), this is why I think it's problematic to refer to the "Celtic Mandolin" as if it sprung fully formed from the forehead of Stefan Sobell or anyone else, and to suggest that the "authentic" sound was sealed in amber by bands like Planxty back in the day.

Celtic is a marketing term, not something that many of us who play this music use to describe what we're doing. It's useful in that context when you're selling instruments or if you're in a band. I've used it myself when promoting a duo I play in (with gritted teeth, and only because it's the one term the clients understand). 

I've been playing mandolin in local Irish and Scottish sessions for about 5 years now, and I've never been given the stink eye for playing a mandolin based on the Gibson F5. In the music community I play in, the only thing that matters is whether you can play this music, or not. 

Trying to chase down what "authentic" means on the level of individual instruments in this music is a fool's errand anyway. Because if you fall far enough down that rabbit hole, you'll end up learning the pipes. 
 :Wink: 

P.S. Boatswain, welcome to the Cafe!

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## Boatswain

> Trying to chase down what "authentic" means on the level of individual instruments in this music is a fool's errand anyway. Because if you fall far enough down that rabbit hole, you'll end up learning the pipes. 
> 
> 
> P.S. Boatswain, welcome to the Cafe!


Thanks Foldedpath! I also can attest to what you said about the pipes. About 5 years ago I really started to "discover" the online debates about mandolin not having a long history in ITM. I DID follow that rabbit hole and actually began to reconsider my commitment to mandolin and CBOM instruments as my favorite music to play is ITM. I actually called up CJ Dixon and got a set of pipes. After about a year of learning, I realized how much more I still loved to play mandolin family instruments. Put the pipes down in favor of my low-tier Washburn f-hole A style mandolin. 
These days I only concern myself with what I like to play, what I enjoy, etc. Today, that was cracking open the door to let some of the summer air in, enjoy a coffee, and play some reels/jigs on my cittern.  :Smile:

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Bertram Henze

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## nkforster

> Celtic is a marketing term, not something that many of us who play this music use to describe what we're doing. It's useful in that context when you're selling instruments or if you're in a band. I've used it myself when promoting a duo I play in (with gritted teeth, and only because it's the one term the clients understand).



We will just have to agree to agree. It's a marketing term. It's what people type into Google. Love it or hate it, we're stuck with it.


I think most folk will agree it's "what you play, not what you play it on." That said, the other point I hope people take away from the article is "what you play it on" does effect whether you actually get heard or can hear yourself. As far as I can tell Bluegrass players suffer from this problem less. As things are many "Celtic" mandolins both cheap and expensive, just don't perform well enough. 

Addressing that little issue..... is my job.

Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

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## Bertram Henze

> ...got a set of pipes. After about a year of learning, I realized how much more I still loved to play mandolin family instruments. Put the pipes down in favor of my low-tier Washburn f-hole A style mandolin.


Truly heartwarming story. Teaching us where the grass is greener.

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## Beanzy

For me a "Celtic" anything must be American to be authentically "Celtic", otherwise it just lacks the sense authenticity of modern marketing speak.

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brunello97

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## danb

Nice information Nigel, well-written piece.

One interpretation I'd add- many players of Irish/Scottish Mandolin will use tenor banjo technique. Thin picks, even dynamics (not a lot of use of loud vs soft picking), using trills & rhythm as the primary variety and decoration. This works quite a bit better on a flat-top, which is generally more responsive at lower pick pressures. Some things that don't typically work very well on a tenor banjo include the following: Left hand rolls with multiple hammer-on and pull-offs, chording or droning a note, changing pick position to get a different attack note, slight muting with the right palm on the bridge, playing a unison (eg 7th fret on the D, open A string), and many other "tricks" in the bluegrass arsenal.

If you *start* with the mandolin or use that as your main instrument, you're probably more likely to use chording, drones, dynamics, left-hand slides, and all sorts of techniques that show up in the bluegrass world. Like some others, I have found that you can get a lot of interesting sounds out of F-holed instruments which tend to have a bit more woof to them when you play with heavier picks or a heavier right hand! It is interesting to think "What wouldn't work on an Irish Tenor banjo"- often that's the technique that you'll hear on recordings of Irish mandolin players.

Heavier picks used in bluegrass also introduce a few new tricks to the mandolin arsenal- not all that commonly-heard on most Irish/Scottish recordings. A loose grip is a vastly different sound from a tight one once the picks get heavy. 

The classic Gibson A4/F4 sound is scattered about in various recordings too- I think it works wonderfully as you get a bit less rapid decay on the notes from the oval-holed Gibsons. 

I quite like to mix the various tones- Generally I prefer an F5 for melody or lead work on fast stuff, an A-model for things with more resonance or sustain, and I'll go with the Sobell 10-string for tunes that largely want drones/sustain/even dynamics.

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Nick Gellie

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## Dagger Gordon

" You just can’t get those rich harmonics and that ringing sustain from a Gibson mandolin. Any Gibson mandolin."

This quote from Nigel's article is very significant, and goes a long way to explaining the development of 'Celtic' mandolin building in the last 4 decades.
It's interesting to note what various players say about this in Nigel's article:

Kevin MacLeod likes it to ring - 
"My playing style relies heavily on the articulation of the dotted crotchet and quaver building block of the music, and the longer note can be made to ring longer on a Sobell, for me."

Luke Plumb doesn't really -
"My style though lends itself more to an instrument designed around clarity and dead evenness where one note doesn’t linger over the next. That’s a BIG sacrifice in sustain and “lush” overtones but it suits my way of playing better."

Simon Mayor likes 'huge sustain' -
"I look for an instrument that responds well in the higher registers and has a huge sustain. "
" just a simple teardrop shape that rings like a bell is my ideal."

I would add that I myself also really like a big sustain and a bell-like sound, which is certainly pretty typical of Sobell instruments.
Luke seems to me to be the exception in this, but he gives a very clearly thought-out explanation for his approach.

It's maybe worth noting that in Scotland quite a few players use 10 string mandolins, such as Iain MacLeod (ex Shooglenifty, Nuala Kennedy Band), Damian Helliwell (Diamh, Metta) and myself who all play Sobells, and Ewan MacPherson (played mandolin with Shooglenifty last year) who plays a 10-string Paul Shippey - a really nice instrument by the way.
I think this may have had something to do with the idea of a 'mini-cittern' which Nigel touches on in his article:

"I do recall one conversation in the late 90s during my time working for him: Stefan told me that in the 70s, when people asked him to build mandolins, what they asked for was a miniature version of his Cittern and octave mandolins."

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## JeffD

Great article.

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## Shelagh Moore

An interesting article. Like Pete though I do not subscribe to the view that a flat or induced-arch top is inherently inferior... I have owned several very fine hand-made (not "home" made) mandolins of this type by highly-regarded luthiers which have had extremely rich and complex tones. The sound is a different, not necessarily inferior, one which some of us prefer. The majority of popular acoustic guitars are flat tops. My main guitar is an arch-top which I prefer the tone of so, in the end, it's largely down to personal preferences.

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Bob Clark

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## Annette Siegel

"Here is Marla Fibish on stage with her 1921 A-2" 

 Just a FYI - Marla's Main Mandolin squeeze is an "A" (plain headstock) 1922 (via F.O.N.)

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## Dagger Gordon

Here is a link to a very interesting program on Irish TV a few years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITt76_9oDOs

The well-known Irish bouzouki and mandolin maker Joe Foley features a lot in this film.
Note the comments he has to make about the bouzouki and mandolin at 2.04 mins regarding flat backed instruments and the 'woodiness of the sound'.
I think this notion of the 'woodiness of the sound' is important in a good 'Celtic' sounding instrument, and has something to do with why old Gibsons are often favoured.

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Nick Gellie, 

Paul Cowham

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## mikeyes

One of the main themes from the RTE clip mentioned above is how the introduction of the bouzouki brought "a brand new way of playing the music" and with it new techniques and sounds.  I think that the same thing is happening here.  As Dan points out, the carved top mandolin offers new horizons to the musician and the two types of mandolins we are discussing are quite different from one another in both sound and how they are played.  
I talked with Martin Howley about this and he said that he went with the Collings F style mandolin because he was exploring more advanced technical skills that would not work as well on the Shapiro he was playing and in the last year he has had the opportunity to see and hear what his Collings could do both for him and his band, Webanjo3.  
If you look at the video of him playing Vincent Broderick's "The Rookery" you will see some of the technical brilliance he is able to bring to the tune.  He has played this tune, which is from East Galway his home area, since he was twelve and has worked with it all that time.  I can tell you that in the last year he has developed more technique and explored the possibilities of this instrument (I have the videos to show it, but I never publish them unless I get permission first) and he would not have been able to play at this level with his old instrument.   
I'm not saying that he would not have advanced his technique with the Shapiro, it is after all a fabulous instrument, but it would have taken a different direction just like the bouzouki built by Joe Foley was helpful in the paradigm shift that occurred when the bouzouki came into Irish music.  As time goes on we will see a separation between the two styles of mandolin playing and the music will remain.  
The same thing happened to mandolin music in the States 90 years ago - techniques changed with the advent of the carved back instrument.  Tastes changed and there were thousands of player who became interested in mandolin bands etc. because this instrument allowed for larger concert venues.  Mandolin playing went out of style just about the time that LLoyd Loar did his thing and was old fashioned by 1930 until the folk revival in this country.  By then the cheap mandolins were often Gibson A models, hence the monopoly in the States.
There is no question that beautiful music is made with the flat topped instruments.  I think that Nigel is pointing out that there is a choice at this time.  One of the economic aspects is that there are more carved topped choices out there that are a value due to the basic construction of carved topped mandolins vs. what you can get for the same price in a flat topped instrument.  I'd love to have a Foley or a Sobell but they are fairly priced and out of my range at this point.  In addition I would have to learn how to play the instrument as a lot of my technique would not translate as well to the new mandolin - I know this because I have difficulty playing ones that I have borrowed and being satisfied with my playing.  
Basically they are two different instruments requiring different techniques to play at a competent level and have totally different sounds. The techniques for playing the carved top mandolins have been around a lot longer than those for the flat top, at least outside of classical circles which are totally different.  It's not surprising that younger players are looking toward the Chris Thiles for inspiration in order to play their favorite music and choosing the carved top mandolins.  It is also not surprising when young players look at Andy Irvine and choose a Foley.  When the choice is made their paths may diverge a the two types of instruments are not the same thing.

Mike

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Nick Gellie

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## foldedpath

> Thanks Foldedpath! I also can attest to what you said about the pipes. About 5 years ago I really started to "discover" the online debates about mandolin not having a long history in ITM. I DID follow that rabbit hole and actually began to reconsider my commitment to mandolin and CBOM instruments as my favorite music to play is ITM. I actually called up CJ Dixon and got a set of pipes. After about a year of learning, I realized how much more I still loved to play mandolin family instruments. Put the pipes down in favor of my low-tier Washburn f-hole A style mandolin. 
> These days I only concern myself with what I like to play, what I enjoy, etc. Today, that was cracking open the door to let some of the summer air in, enjoy a coffee, and play some reels/jigs on my cittern.


My Significant Other would dearly love for me to try learning the pipes, because she travels in local Scottish fiddle/piping circles out here in the Pacific Northwest, as well as playing Irish trad. I'm still struggling a little with an appreciation for the pipes, to be honest. I hear a tune in A mixolydian with a short range, and 7 parts with just a few tiny variations... yeah... must have been written by a piper! But I'm too old to start on something like pipes now. 

Hanging out with her friends and lurking in her workshops has widened my musical horizons. I play mandolin in a local session now with two pipers (border pipes and something else.. Reel Pipes?), and I've met piping heroes like Fred Morrison in one of her workshops. Her workshops also expose me to Cape Breton fiddlers like Andrea Beaton and Troy McGilvray, who I've had the honor of sitting next to in an after-workshop session (blew me away, way over my league but super-friendly people). 

Along those lines, and because I don't think this music always fits on the mandolin, I've started learning a little Irish flute. I never really understood some things about this music before trying the flute. "Oh... so _that's_ what a cut is! Oh, so _that's_ a long roll." Those things happen in places where we substitute things like the treble ornament on mandolin and tenor banjo. Pipe-adapted ornaments like crans still baffle me, but all of this has opened my ears. I don't know if it helps my mandolin playing, but it can't hurt. And I still like the ease of doing double-stops and brief chordal things on mandoln -- things you can't do on the fiddle, flute, or pipes (well unless you're playing a full Uilleann set with all the wrist lever thingies).

So at the end of this long-winded post, I'm going to suggest that if you still have an interest in this kind of thing, then get a tin whistle in D and fool around on it. It costs next to nothing, and it might help cross-fertilize your mandolin playing. It's not pipes, but it's way closer than the mandolin, and you can still play this music on the mandolin. I sure do.
 :Smile:

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## foldedpath

> We will just have to agree to agree. It's a marketing term. It's what people type into Google. Love it or hate it, we're stuck with it.


Yep, and sorry if that was a little heavy-handed in using this thread as a jumping off point. Like I said... pet peeve, necessary evil, etc. 




> I think most folk will agree it's "what you play, not what you play it on." That said, the other point I hope people take away from the article is "what you play it on" does effect whether you actually get heard or can hear yourself. As far as I can tell Bluegrass players suffer from this problem less. As things are many "Celtic" mandolins both cheap and expensive, just don't perform well enough. 
> 
> Addressing that little issue..... is my job.


Agreeing 100% here. One other thing that bugs me, is how some people think an inexpensive flattop or one of the not-so-great 20's Gibson A's is the best choice for the music, just from the appearance and not the performance. I've heard mandolin players in local sessions who are good players, but you can't hear a thing unless you're sitting right next to them.

And it's not just a session thing. A mandolin with a clear voice is much easier to record with microphones for a CD project.

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## foldedpath

> " You just can’t get those rich harmonics and that ringing sustain from a Gibson mandolin. Any Gibson mandolin."
> 
> This quote from Nigel's article is very significant, and goes a long way to explaining the development of 'Celtic' mandolin building in the last 4 decades.


The danger of over-generalization is that we don't all play Gibson brand or 100% Gibson copies when we play "Gibson style" mandolins.

I play a Lebeda F5 mandolin with a redwood top. It doesn't sound like a typical Bluegrass mandolin. Sustain up the wazoo, but combined with the "focus" of this design. 

If we only had Gibson and 100% Gibson copy mandolins as a comparison, then this generalization would work. But not after the recent Golden Age explosion of independent luthiers creating their own take on the design. A Collings doesn't sound like a Gibson, and so on...

Edit to add: "Sustain" is also something that might be essential for interpreting a slow air, but a reel flying past at dance tempo doesn't exactly require sustain. What you want is a clear voice for those notes.

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Nick Gellie

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## foldedpath

At the risk of over-staying my welcome on this topic with those last few posts by elaborating on my last point...

Why does "sustain" figure so prominently in a discussion of a good mandolin for playing this music? 

Sure, if all you're going to be playing is Si Bheag Si Mhor and the like, then you're going to want an instrument with as much note sustain after the pick attack as you can get. But how does sustain matter for the rest of the music like marches, strathspeys, reels, hornpipes, jigs, slides, and the rest? 

This is fast-paced, _relentlessly_ note-y stuff. It's the kind of music where a whistle or flute player has to think strategically about taking a breath and dropping notes, because it's not built into the music. The music just keeps going, and it's fast if you're playing up to dance tempos.

So if we're not talking about a mandolin optimized for slow airs and O'Carolan harp tunes, then where does "sustain" as a quality of the mandolin fit into the equation?

That's an honest question. I'd like to hear what people think about this.

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## Bertram Henze

> Why does "sustain" figure so prominently in a discussion of a good mandolin for playing this music? 
> 
> Sure, if all you're going to be playing is Si Bheag Si Mhor and the like, then you're going to want an instrument with as much note sustain after the pick attack as you can get. But how does sustain matter for the rest of the music like marches, strathspeys, reels, hornpipes, jigs, slides, and the rest?


Well, without sustain, they sit you down in a session between the two bodhrans (the one with a neck and the one without).  :Wink: 

We are competing against instruments that make what is generally perceived as "Irish" sound, such as fiddles, flutes, boxes; even a solo tin whistle will instantly be recognized as sounding Irish. All these instruments have sustain, i.e. the kind that stands out not only in slow pieces but all the time, the kind that gives you room for ornaments, and I am always trying to reach as much of that as I can.
There is another thing - Irish music today lacks a traditional instrument that has practically become exctinct: the wire-strung harp; I think the mandolin has a chance to take that place, but only with a ringing sustain.

----------


## foldedpath

> Well, without sustain, they sit you down in a session between the two bodhrans (the one with a neck and the one without). 
> 
> We are competing against instruments that make what is generally perceived as "Irish" sound, such as fiddles, flutes, boxes; even a solo tin whistle will instantly be recognized as sounding Irish. All these instruments have sustain, i.e. the kind that stands out not only in slow pieces but all the time, the kind that gives you room for ornaments, and I am always trying to reach as much of that as I can.


No, that's not what I'm talking about. The fact that the tradition is based around sustaining instruments, which is where we get all these "ornaments" from, is beside the point. 

I'm asking why sustain is always put on a pedestal as a valuable quality for the "Celtic" mandolin, when it's irrelevant if you're playing the vast majority of tunes in the instrumental tradition outside of harp music. The dance tunes. The fast ones. The ones the fiddlers, flute players, whistlers, box players, and pipers have no trouble playing at full speed. 




> There is another thing - Irish music today lacks a traditional instrument that has practically become exctinct: the wire-strung harp; I think the mandolin has a chance to take that place, but only with a ringing sustain.


Sure, but that's a different, "sideways" tradition to the dance tunes. I play a couple of O'Carolan tunes on mandolin, but that's not what I'm asking about. And frankly, I think a guitar played fingerstyle is better suited for this, if you're going to use a fretted instrument to enter that territory. More notes under your fingers, and a deeper bass line.

----------


## Dagger Gordon

> At the risk of over-staying my welcome on this topic with those last few posts by elaborating on my last point...
> 
> Why does "sustain" figure so prominently in a discussion of a good mandolin for playing this music? 
> 
> Sure, if all you're going to be playing is Si Bheag Si Mhor and the like, then you're going to want an instrument with as much note sustain after the pick attack as you can get. But how does sustain matter for the rest of the music like marches, strathspeys, reels, hornpipes, jigs, slides, and the rest? 
> 
> This is fast-paced, _relentlessly_ note-y stuff. It's the kind of music where a whistle or flute player has to think strategically about taking a breath and dropping notes, because it's not built into the music. The music just keeps going, and it's fast if you're playing up to dance tempos.
> 
> So if we're not talking about a mandolin optimized for slow airs and O'Carolan harp tunes, then where does "sustain" as a quality of the mandolin fit into the equation?
> ...


I can only speak for myself, but I think of the ringing strings (particularly the open strings which will continue to sound for some time after you have played them) as a sort of drone under the main melody, in fast tunes as much as slow ones.
Perhaps I should give an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4M22Vrfrg

In any case, I think the notion of 'ringing strings' is certainly part of 'Celtic' music.
Tom Anderson from the Shetlands had a tune book called that, and I think it has also to do with the popularity of open tunings in Celtic guitar and cittern playing, and indeed the harp (as Bertram notes - and I agree with you there Bertram) and another rarely seen (in the UK) instrument the hammered dulcimer - although my impression is that it does feature a bit in US Celtic bands. These are instruments where ringing strings are part of the sound.
In the case of open or partially open tuned guitars and bouzoukis, we see the capo being used a great deal. This seems to me because players are seeking to retain that open ringing sound which is lost if there are a lot of closed chords.

----------

Marty Jacobson

----------


## danb

Sometimes it is easier to illustrate with sound than words. I used to do recorded "Tastings" of various mandolins. Here's a jig written by my friend Chipper on snakehead 71261:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/sound...st_october.mp3

And on an F5:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/sound...st_october.mp3

And finally here's "The Lark in the Morning" in duet form, Loar F5 76547 + Tim's Collings/Nugget A5.
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/dan/0...he_morning.mp3

Tim is playing it quite "spare" here, in the style you'd commonly hear in sessions in Ireland. I'm hitting the dynamics and rhythm a bit more and providing most of the diddlyums..

----------

Marty Jacobson, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## Bertram Henze

> The dance tunes. The fast ones.


Yes exactly those are the ones I am talking about. These do make a difference with or without sustain. This music has often been called "deedlee-eye" for a reason, it's not been called "pck-t-pck". The ratio of noises vs tone.

Dagger's example video says it all. Compare it to this.

----------


## danb

Also worth noting: the Sobells and similar are most popular in the north of the UK and in Scotland. They also made it quite big to the USA, though they are less commonly seen in Irish sessions in London/Ireland that I have experienced. "Celtic" as referenced in the original post refers mostly to Scottish & English players it seems!

Dagger & Kevin do wonderful work with their Sobells. Kevin's I have played myself and can quickly confirm it is a lovely instrument.

Some well-known players and what I know of their gear:
*Andy Irvine* has recorded many things on various Gibson a models, also on Sobell citterns & guitars
*Gerald Trimble* recorded his Green linnet CDs on 2 different Sobell Citterns (one long & one short scale), eventually played a monteleone 10-string, and later moved to playing primarily viola de gamba and other similar violin-family instruments.
*Roger Landes* recorded Dragon Reels with a variety of Stephen Owsley Smith Instruments
*Zan McLeod* has a Steve Owsley Smith octave mandolin
*Seamus Egan* of Solas has played a large variety of mandolins. One album cover shows a 3-point f4.
*Phil Cunningham* frequently plays a Sobell OM tuned like the top 4 strings of a guitar
*Brian McDonagh* of Dervish used Gibson H1 & H2 mandolas for years. Michael plays Phil Crump flat-top bouzoukis
*Mick Maloney* recorded several of his disks on an older Orville Label A model 
*Paul Kotapish* had a very nice-sounding Flatiron f-hole model in "Open House", and later a very nice F5 on "Wake the Dead" recordings
*Marla Fibish* of the SF Bay Area has a Gibson A
*Terry Woods* of the Pogues plays a very early (the first?) Stephen Owsley Smith mandolin, used Sobell bouzoukis circa "If I Should Fall From Grace With God", and now has various electrics by a builder I am not familiar with
*Alec Finn* of DeDannan used mostly a greek 3-course bouzouki. A gibson mandocello appears on "Star Spangled Molly"
*Tim O'Brien* played a very early nugget f-holed A-model for years, recently has used a nugget/collings Tim O'Brien model

Also.. this is a good thread on similar subject from last year

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ndolin-Playing


And one last random bit of blather.. Vega Cylinderback mandolins are often great trad instruments. They have the systain and clarity, but are more on the bassy side than the brighter ringing Sobells.

----------


## nkforster

> Also worth noting: the Sobells and similar are most popular in the north of the UK and in Scotland. They also made it quite big to the USA, though they are less commonly seen in Irish sessions in London/Ireland that I have experienced. "Celtic" as referenced in the original post refers mostly to Scottish & English players it seems!
> 
> Dagger & Kevin do wonderful work with their Sobells. Kevin's I have played myself and can quickly confirm it is a lovely instrument.
> 
> Some well-known players and what I know of their gear:
> *Andy Irvine* has recorded many things on various Gibson a models, also on Sobell citterns & guitars
> *Gerald Trimble* recorded his Green linnet CDs on 2 different Sobell Citterns (one long & one short scale), eventually played a monteleone 10-string, and later moved to playing primarily viola de gamba and other similar violin-family instruments.
> *Roger Landes* recorded Dragon Reels with a variety of Stephen Owsley Smith Instruments
> *Zan McLeod* has a Steve Owsley Smith octave mandolin
> ...



Brilliant! Thanks for the list, very informative. To be honest I was a little concerned about the "non Irish" content of the piece, but at some point you just have to stop and publish. In the end I could only include those who responded to the emails I sent, and unfortunately the Irish and Irish-American musicians I wrote to as yet have not replied. But if they do I can always add their quotes or write another piece specifically about the mandolin in Irish music. 

On your second point - I'm fascinated by anything "cylinder", as some of you will know from my writings and videos about the cylinder top instruments I make based on the old Howe Orme design. In you experience do the Vega mandolins perform well in a session? 

What I've come to realise is the carved top "Celtic" mandolins for want of a better term are great for recording but few have the projection to cut it in a session. I think this is the direction my research has to be directed...

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

----------


## danb

> On your second point - I'm fascinated by anything "cylinder", as some of you will know from my writings and videos about the cylinder top instruments I make based on the old Howe Orme design. In you experience do the Vega mandolins perform well in a session? 
> 
> What I've come to realise is the carved top "Celtic" mandolins for want of a better term are great for recording but few have the projection to cut it in a session. I think this is the direction my research has to be directed...


You can make a lot of noise on most mandolins with the right technique, but that only gets you so far. Kevin's got a nice trick with the resophonic mandolins  :Smile: 

The Vegas sound great but are maybe a bit softer than a gibson A. 

A good Loar cuts just fine in a sesion, but that's not always a great option  :Smile:

----------


## Beanzy

> and unfortunately the Irish and Irish-American musicians I wrote to as yet have not replied.


I think many Irish mandolin players will probably feel they lack the experience to comment on something called a Celtic mandolin. They don't play "Celtic" music, which is a catch-all term that glosses over the differences between the disparate styles it tries to encompass, they play Irish music. It's a useful header for a CD collection, but without going straight to the style or type of tunes being played, then trying to define the 'right' mandolin for the job would be a wild goose chase.

The mandolin is still very much an unknown quantity in Irish music and has yet to find it's place in sessions. Without being too hard on the players I've heard, they tend to do better on their tenor banjos or banjo-mandolins, than when they pick up a mandolin and try play it as if it were a little wooden banjo.

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## nkforster

> I think many Irish mandolin players will probably feel they lack the experience to comment on something called a Celtic mandolin. They don't play "Celtic" music, which is a catch-all term that glosses over the differences between the disparate styles it tries to encompass, they play Irish music. It's a useful header for a CD collection, but without going straight to the style or type of tunes being played, then trying to define the 'right' mandolin for the job would be a wild goose chase.
> 
> The mandolin is still very much an unknown quantity in Irish music and has yet to find it's place in sessions. Without being too hard on the players I've heard, they tend to do better on their tenor banjos or banjo-mandolins, than when they pick up a mandolin and try play it as if it were a little wooden banjo.


The questions as posed to the musicians I asked wouldn't have presented the problem as you see it, I just think it's an issue of the people I asked either being too busy or not interested. And almost everyone who did answer expressed a dislike of the term Celtic at some time or other. Fair enough.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

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## kmmando

Well, the original National Guitars company were I suppose trying to answer the question of volume, and came up with the cone solution, and it is still very serviceable. You do need to work out how to "control" resonators, as they are different, but, as my fiddling pal John Martin is quick to point out (pointedly!) at sessions, they are very loud. I think there is room to create slightly different sounding resonator mandolins - my tricone and single cone tenors sound very different. I've never heard, or seen the tricone mandos that National made briefly in the 20s', but they could be very sweet. 

The new RM1 is a great instrument, very well built  and designed, and playable, off the shelf. The hotplate pickup roars through a good combo. 

Kevin

kevinmacleod.co.uk

----------


## danb

> On your second point - I'm fascinated by anything "cylinder", as some of you will know from my writings and videos about the cylinder top instruments I make based on the old Howe Orme design. In you experience do the Vega mandolins perform well in a session? 
> 
> What I've come to realise is the carved top "Celtic" mandolins for want of a better term are great for recording but few have the projection to cut it in a session. I think this is the direction my research has to be directed...


You can make a lot of noise on most mandolins with the right technique, but that only gets you so far. Kevin's got a nice trick with the resophonic mandolins.

The Vegas sound great but are maybe a bit softer than a gibson A. 

A good Loar cuts just fine in a sesion, but that's not always a great option  :Smile:

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## Bertram Henze

> A good Loar cuts just fine in a sesion, but that's not always a great option


A session is hard going for a mandolin - to sound good AND loud is the ultimate challenge. There's this man in our sessions with a cheapo carved-top f-hole, and you hear him clearly through the din, but it's all _ticketicketicketick_...

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## Niall Anderson

I've played Kevin's RM1 acoustically, and it nearly deafened me... I can't imagine what it would be like through a PA...

 :Disbelief: 

(hands out earplugs...)

----------


## Anglocelt

I just realised I have been playing 'celtic' mandolin for 50 years (I should improve soon) so should have some sagatious pearls on this topic by now. 

I started in Birmingham (England) playing on some pretty dismal old mandolins, mostly German or Italian made but I was lucky to find a cheap Gibson A4 in a local furniture auction and ever since have been a convert to the carved-top and back USA-style mandolin for 'celtic' music. I have also played some pretty good flat-tops along the way (I owned a cedar-topped Oakwood for a while) and I had a cedar-topped large-body Sobell mandolin for a few years. I sold it because the 'ringing forever' resonance became annoying and bled over into other notes too much  - too mushy for my taste (perhaps conditioned by now to the more percussive Gibson A sound). Having said that it is interesting that Simon Mayor finds enough resonance in his Gibson-style instruments (made in Scotland) for his more gentle playing approach.

One structural development not mentioned so far is the increased height of bridges on modern mandolins compared to older models. My early second-hand mandolins had very low bridges allowing very little room for digging into the strings. I think the increased height of Gibson bridges has influenced all of the players and makers of  'celtic' mandolins and allows flat-tops also to be played more loudly and so compete with their carved-top cousins.

Kevin

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## Mike Anderson

> I can only speak for myself, but I think of the ringing strings (particularly the open strings which will continue to sound for some time after you have played them) as a sort of drone under the main melody, in fast tunes as much as slow ones.
> Perhaps I should give an example:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4M22Vrfrg
> 
> In any case, I think the notion of 'ringing strings' is certainly part of 'Celtic' music.
> Tom Anderson from the Shetlands had a tune book called that, and I think it has also to do with the popularity of open tunings in Celtic guitar and cittern playing, and indeed the harp (as Bertram notes - and I agree with you there Bertram) and another rarely seen (in the UK) instrument the hammered dulcimer - although my impression is that it does feature a bit in US Celtic bands. These are instruments where ringing strings are part of the sound.
> In the case of open or partially open tuned guitars and bouzoukis, we see the capo being used a great deal. This seems to me because players are seeking to retain that open ringing sound which is lost if there are a lot of closed chords.


This all rings true (sorry) for me, and I for one am hardly going to take issue with the man who wrote "Da Slockit Light."

----------


## foldedpath

Thanks everyone, for the response to the sustain question. This has always puzzled me, when discussions about a proper mandolin for this music come up, and the discussion shifts towards instruments with more sustain. 

It's important for airs and slow reels, although an argument could be made (and I've made it) that there are some of these very slow and irregular tempo airs that just aren't mandolin material. But for a reel like Cooley's, even at a relaxed session tempo of around 105 beats per minute, each note you're playing in most of the phrases is follwed by another note just over a 10th of a second later. And that's not even getting into things like pull-offs, hammer-ons, or treble ornaments where the time interval between notes is even faster. Or some of those very short and very fast runs one encounters in Scottish and Cape Breton strathspeys as a rhythmic break in the music.

So my question has always been -- how does sustain matter, in the typical ways we talk about sustain, if it's only there for a 10th of a second? Or even less, for the ornaments and runs?

And the answer, from all these posts (including my own experience) seems to be that it's not really about sustain considered in isolation, but how sustain combines with the overall timbre of the instrument. And then it's down to how each player thinks a mandolin "should" sound for this music. 

So we're back to personal preference in tone again, and not some isolated factor like sustain. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it
 :Smile:

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## Shelagh Moore

> The mandolin is still very much an unknown quantity in Irish music and has yet to find it's place in sessions. Without being too hard on the players I've heard, they tend to do better on their tenor banjos or banjo-mandolins, than when they pick up a mandolin and try play it as if it were a little wooden banjo.


I've been playing in sessions in the UK (mainly London) and Ireland since around the mid-70s and the mandolin has always been present in sessions I've been involved with in that time.




> So my question has always been -- how does sustain matter, in the typical ways we talk about sustain, if it's only there for a 10th of a second? Or even less, for the ornaments and runs?


Well... I tend to let some strings ring like a drone while I'm playing melody on others and, for that purpose, sustain is something I look for. So I suppose it depends on one's individual style.

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## Bertram Henze

> Trying to chase down what "authentic" means on the level of individual instruments in this music is a fool's errand anyway. Because if you fall far enough down that rabbit hole, you'll end up learning the pipes.


...and you'll have to have seen it to know what that means:

----------

Denman John, 

derbex, 

Marty Jacobson, 

Michael Wolf

----------


## Beanzy

> I've been playing in sessions in the UK (mainly London) and Ireland since around the mid-70s and the mandolin has always been present in sessions I've been involved with in that time.


They've always turned up and been welcome, as long as the players had done their 'homework' and new the tunes well, but they've yet to find their place. I'm convinced there is a place which can be found, possibly by fiddle players who play well enough to really work one.
At the moment it's a bit like guitars, it's sort of ok to tick along 'as long as no one notices' attitude. 
The people at CCE seem game to work on it, but they're in uncharted waters and seem to be treating it as another banjo.
I'd like it a lot if they were found a real place in Irish Traditional Music but it's mostly Irish or general folk sessions where they seem to fit without 'bother'.

----------


## Dagger Gordon

> They've always turned up and been welcome, as long as the players had done their 'homework' and new the tunes well, but they've yet to find their place. I'm convinced there is a place which can be found, possibly by fiddle players who play well enough to really work one.
> At the moment it's a bit like guitars, it's sort of ok to tick along 'as long as no one notices' attitude. 
> The people at CCE seem game to work on it, but they're in uncharted waters and seem to be treating it as another banjo.
> I'd like it a lot if they were found a real place in Irish Traditional Music but it's mostly Irish or general folk sessions where they seem to fit without 'bother'.


You know, I really do think we are underestimating the role of the mandolin in Irish music. 
Planxty, the Dubliners, The Boys of the Lough, De Danann, Mick Moloney etc etc.

Just because it's not as loud as a tenor banjo in a session doesn't mean it is not quite significant.
Anyway, as regards volume in a session, how clearly can you always hear one person playing the fiddle or the whistle in a noisy bar?

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## Bertram Henze

> ...it's sort of ok to tick along 'as long as no one notices' attitude.


Yes, due to low volume it is often a silent, sad and pathetic situation to watch - the general perception seems to be "if you can't play but want to join a session, don't bring a bodhran, bring a mandolin", or even worse: "...and sit in the back so you don't occupy a real musician's place". This way, many mandolin players appear like air guitar players attending a rock concert.
Another thing I have observed is that the mandolin often serves as a larval stage before the player gets good enough to switch to a more acoustically prominent session instrument like a banjo or a bouzouki.

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Anyway, as regards volume in a session, how clearly can you always hear one person playing the fiddle or the whistle in a noisy bar?


Fiddles often come in small armies and are clearly heard then.
When I go to the men's room in our noisiest session, I can hear a single flute above the roar of musicians and regulars from there.
A single whistle can cut through any noise if it is the right make (many are made of aluminum in Scotland  :Wink: ).

That said, a single mandolin starting a tune set can earn respect (and dead silence from the musicians when the next tune is due) if it is played really well and convincing. But that condition is mandatory; you don't have the built-in prestige of a piper. When you enter the bar with a mandolin case, it's not exactly like Clint Eastwood entering the saloon...

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## foldedpath

> They've always turned up and been welcome, as long as the players had done their 'homework' and new the tunes well, but they've yet to find their place. I'm convinced there is a place which can be found, possibly by fiddle players who play well enough to really work one.


"Really work one?" What does that mean? What are us mandolin players, chopped liver?  :Smile: 

It's just a small statistical sample, but the accomplished trad fiddlers I've known, have been fairly hopeless when trying to play mandolin as a side instrument. It's a different skill set. Only a few people like Tim O'Brien work at developing the necessary multi-instrument chops. For a typical trad fiddler, they're too deep into the music on their own instrument to bother. 




> At the moment it's a bit like guitars, it's sort of ok to tick along 'as long as no one notices' attitude.


Every session is different, so I think that's an over-generalization. I play in a Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish session where my mandolin sure isn't the dominant sound in that group, but I have no trouble kicking off a tune set, and leading the next tunes in the set. If it's a session where everyone is always blasting away at full volume and not listening to the other players, then yes, a mandolin can get easily buried.

----------


## Mike Anderson

> ...and you'll have to have seen it to know what that means:


Oh, the humanity! I nearly got coffee up my nose.  :Disbelief:

----------

Denman John, 

Nick Gellie, 

Randi Gormley, 

Rob Zamites

----------


## Shelagh Moore

> They've always turned up and been welcome, as long as the players had done their 'homework' and new the tunes well, but they've yet to find their place. I'm convinced there is a place which can be found, possibly by fiddle players who play well enough to really work one.
> At the moment it's a bit like guitars, it's sort of ok to tick along 'as long as no one notices' attitude.
> The people at CCE seem game to work on it, but they're in uncharted waters and seem to be treating it as another banjo.
> I'd like it a lot if they were found a real place in Irish Traditional Music but it's mostly Irish or general folk sessions where they seem to fit without 'bother'.


I'm afraid I respectfully disagree. Mandolin is my main and preferred instrument (although I play tenor banjo, guitar and a couple of other instruments as well) and I've been leading Irish (and Scottish) sessions with it for a good couple of decades now (the National RM-1 I've had for a few years now certainly helps with this) and I know of quite a few other sessions where the mandolin is a leading instrument rather than a "tinkerer-along". I see other above also have this experience.

----------


## nkforster

It might be time for one of you to start a fresh thread as we seemed to have veered off into another aspect of this fascinating subject.

The intention of the article wasn't to question the role of the instrument in any particular type of music. In writing it I tried to set out some sort of "taxonomy" as to what an actual "Celtic" mandolin is as apposed to a Gibson A or F mandolin. I also raised the point that despite there being a mandolin destined for the "Celtic" market, that those instruments rarely perform well in their "natural" habitat - the pub. 

Dagger made a very valid point which I quote in the article:

*Its maybe worth remembering that in the early seventies the mandolin was generally quite a prominent instrument in folky bands, and was used by the Dubliners, Fairport, Boys of the Lough, Planxty, Horslips, Hedgehog Pie, Lindisfarne, the MacCalmans and plenty others.

Indeed, when I started playing it (the mandolin) I actually thought it was a much more established Celtic instrument than it turned out to be!*

That it hasn't turned out to be such an established instrument (I feel) may well be down to the fact the majority of instruments easily available to Irish and British musicians can't cope in the "session arms race" when it comes to volume and projection. For playing at home, for gigs and recordings it's a different matter. Hence folk turning to resonators, tenor banjos or different instruments all together in order to play, hear themselves and contribute. And that's a shame. I can't promise I'm going to crack this particular nut, but that's where my efforts are heading just now.

But inevitably when reading an article like mine, readers pick up on the bits they feel strongly about or are close to their bugbears and hobby horses and redirect the conversation to that.

Time for a new thread?

For those who've not read (or forgotten) the article, here it is again.

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/celtic-mandolin/

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

----------


## foldedpath

> It might be time for one of you to start a fresh thread as we seemed to have veered off into another aspect of this fascinating subject.


(snippage)




> But inevitably when reading an article like mine, readers pick up on the bits they feel strongly about or are close to their bugbears and hobby horses and redirect the conversation to that.
> 
> Time for a new thread?
> 
> For those who've not read (or forgotten) the article, here it is again.
> 
> http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/celtic-mandolin/


Well, you know, Nigel, one of the great things about the Cafe is that people who start threads like this don't get to control the following comments. You can't ask people to start a new thread when they disagree with you. You're saying things in your blog post like this:




> In the 70s and 80s and on, Sobell instruments became the standard for many British and Irish folk musicians, the sound of those instruments became synonymous with the music. As a result people dont associate that American woody bass and thick treble we find in the best American mandolins like Gibson, and their many imitators with Celtic music. Instead we associate the twinkly lighter treble along with a smoother bass.


No, not all of us associate that twinkly sound with Celtic music, whatever that is. Some of us don't think it's "synonymous with the music," or we'd be choosing different instruments to play this music. And note that this question of timbre is not about about volume in sessions. If that was all we cared about, we'd all be playing resonator mandolins, and many of us choose not to do that.

----------


## Jim Bevan

The article brings up the question of the further developments/the future of building high-end mandolins-for-Irish-Trad. I'm very satisfied with the volume and the tone of my 30 year-old cedar-top Sobell 10-string (it's plenty loud enough for any reasonable-volume session) -- I just wish the thing felt more pub-friendly, more durable. It feels like it's made of balsa wood, and I keep waiting for it to fall apart in my hands.
Carbon-fibre Sobells, anyone?   :Wink:   Or maybe we just get Pete Langdell involved?

----------


## Boatswain

Anyone ever use a "pocket" amp at a session in order to be heard?

----------


## Colin Lindsay

> They've always turned up and been welcome, as long as the players had done their 'homework' and new the tunes well, but they've yet to find their place. I'm convinced there is a place which can be found, possibly by fiddle players who play well enough to really work one.
> At the moment it's a bit like guitars, it's sort of ok to tick along 'as long as no one notices' attitude. 
> The people at CCE seem game to work on it, but they're in uncharted waters and seem to be treating it as another banjo.
> I'd like it a lot if they were found a real place in Irish Traditional Music but it's mostly Irish or general folk sessions where they seem to fit without 'bother'.



Having played one since the 1970s, and played along with many others who also played variations of the mandolin i.e. mandola in local folk music groups and sessions, this is a fairly sweeping statement regarding mandolins and I’d have to say, in the nicest possible away: totally inaccurate, not to mention completely unfair to guitar players as well… so they all just ’tick along’???? Not to mention ’they have yet to find their place’????  :Disbelief: 
I’ve held off a couple of times responding to this thread, as I’m still not sure where my F-hole bouzouki actually fits in to it all… so I may not be actually qualified to comment at all!

----------


## nkforster

> Anyone ever use a "pocket" amp at a session in order to be heard?


Nigel Gatherer mentioned a chap in an email from him, I intend to include it in a piece about being heard. Here it is:

"*Years ago I used to play in sessions in the Green Tree in Edinburgh and there was a Cornish mandolin player called Neil Davey. He used to have a little amplifier under his seat which lifted his volume up very slightly - perhaps a bit extreme, but it worked for him.*"

I've seen folk with little amps in sessions in Newcastle too, but as ever it's down to the personality of the player. Some folk are very considerate and very "volume aware" others not. 

The same applies to playing on stage. I have to say I've often been impressed by how considerate and "volume aware" American musicians are in comparison to back home. It's great to see in recent years more young British and Irish folk musicians learning perhaps from American musicians and becoming more "mic savvy."  Ahh....were onto one of my many bug bears now!

Nigel (Forster, not Gatherer)
www.nkforsterguitars.com


www.nkforsterguitars.com

----------


## James Rankine

> I also raised the point that despite there being a mandolin destined for the "Celtic" market, that those instruments rarely perform well in their "natural" habitat - the pub. 
> I can't promise I'm going to crack this particular nut, but that's where my efforts are heading just now.
> Nigel
> www.nkforsterguitars.com


Nigel, in order to help you in your quest can I put in my requirements for a celtic mandolin:

Nut width - standard thin, not the "3 cm wide nut favoured by celtic players" one so often hears in marketing blurb. What's that all about? Do all celtic players have thick stubby fingers (new thread required I fear)
Carved top and back.
Usual spruce maple combination.
Natural wood - no sunburst - the sun doesn't shine much round here.
Hint of the onion shape to set it apart from an A as long as you can achieve this without producing a hollow sound and detracting from the focused sound I'm looking for.
F holes (gasp)

In short something which can perform like an American bluegrass player's weapon of choice but doesn't look like it.

I'm happy to test drive this at our local session for no charge. Perhaps you can let me know when it's ready  :Smile:

----------

pheffernan

----------


## nkforster

> Nigel, in order to help you in your quest can I put in my requirements for a celtic mandolin:
> 
> Nut width - standard thin, not the "3 cm wide nut favoured by celtic players" one so often hears in marketing blurb. What's that all about? Do all celtic players have thick stubby fingers (new thread required I fear)
> Carved top and back.
> Usual spruce maple combination.
> Natural wood - no sunburst - the sun doesn't shine much round here.
> Hint of the onion shape to set it apart from an A as long as you can achieve this without producing a hollow sound and detracting from the focused sound I'm looking for.
> F holes (gasp)
> 
> ...



Think you've just described my "A" model James. Shall I put you down for one?!
I'm not sure why they often have such a wide nut. It's helpful for ten stringers, and some customers do request them, but generally I keep them slim.

Nigel

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

----------


## nkforster

Ah - f holes, just missed that bit. Well, that's two sound holes rather than one so I have to charge much more. Much much more....

Nigel

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

----------

James Rankine

----------


## James Rankine

> A session is hard going for a mandolin - to sound good AND loud is the ultimate challenge. There's this man in our sessions with a cheapo carved-top f-hole, and you hear him clearly through the din, but it's all _ticketicketicketick_...


A cheap mandolin won't help but this is probably primarily a technical issue. Musicians playing at just beyond their comfortable ability to keep up in a session is common amongst players of all instruments (I know, I do it myself!). One also hopes that he's that rare breed, a mandolin player who doesn't frequent the cafe, or you'll have some apologies to make at the next session  :Smile:

----------


## Bertram Henze

> One also hopes that he's that rare breed, a mandolin player who doesn't frequent the cafe, or you'll have some apologies to make at the next session


He's a good-natured lad who just likes to have fun, which in his case means "loud and fast" - it is not a question of ability, it just means the make of the mandolin wouldn't make any difference.

----------


## Beanzy

> For a typical trad fiddler, they're too deep into the music on their own instrument to bother.


I think that's why it doesn't feature as a core instrument in traditional Irish music (not the folk or celtic rock recoding bands mentioned above - some players came from the tradition but those bands were way beyond that and brilliant for it) You only have to be there in somewhere like Ceoltas in Monkstown to see what happens in Irish traditional music circles. A load of younger kids come along and play their mandolins, but pretty soon they move to the fiddle and the mandolin seems to become secondary or even lie fallow or just be abandoned. It's not because they're not encouraged to play, it's more the fiddle is so dominant. If you're to be seen to be serious in the tradition (nothing to do with whether you're good) you're expected to play fiddle, flute, banjo or box with harp and pipes for the really brainy ones  :Smile:  . In essence I'm saying that depite it's potential the mandolin remains 'unnecessary' to Irish music, which is only because it is still hazy how it could be a core instrument. ITM isn't Irish Folk and it certainly isn't 'Celtic' music in the marketing sense. But it is core to where the players come from, where the education funding goes and to how they view their instruments. That's where identifying it's role and making the appropriate tool could be so useful. If there is a tune or a type of playing where the sound becomes necessary to the tradition then we'll get it embedded, because Johnny on his fiddle will want to occupy that space and those encouraging them will have a clear picture of what they're aiming at. 

I suspect the solution won't come from Ireland unless we get that role identified. It'll more likely be like the preservation of the tunes was where it took those outside to show why it matters. At the moment the sessions I see when I go back home are predominantly Irish Folk or BG/Americana (easier to find) and the contrast with traditional sessions is really glaring. Not least because the trad ones tend to be in a hall or a school and the folk ones in a pub. But also because of the instruments played and in that world we're a welcome addtion but not core.

We're much luckier here in England as things seem a lot more eclectic.

----------


## Beanzy

> Having played one since the 1970s, and played along with many others who also played variations of the mandolin i.e. mandola in local folk music groups and sessions, this is a fairly sweeping statement regarding mandolins and I’d have to say, in the nicest possible away: totally inaccurate, not to mention completely unfair to guitar players as well… so they all just ’tick along’???? Not to mention ’they have yet to find their place’???? 
> I’ve held off a couple of times responding to this thread, as I’m still not sure where my F-hole bouzouki actually fits in to it all… so I may not be actually qualified to comment at all!


I'm not having a go at guitars, they're core to folk music. The Bazouki and mandolas seem to be more focussed in Folk too, but those great players from the 70s-80s laid out a clear role for them there. 

Maybe once the 'Celtic' mandolin becomes more defined then it's role will become clearer in Irish Traditional music too?

----------


## Jim Bevan

Okay, I'll be more serious.   :Smile: 

Here's where I'd like to see the development of mandolins-for-Irish-Trad head:
I have a couple of Rigel 10-string "mandolas" -- one's a normal one, and one is a resophonic (a joint project between Rigel and National). Both have an almost 17" scale length. The low C enables me to play tunes down an octave -- very handy for adding a little tonal variety for those three-times-around session tunes, and definitely nice to have in a banjo-less session.

I wasn't having much success talking Stefan Sobell into building me one with the same scale length -- he said that the E-strings would break. We sat on the project for a little, and then I found a used Sobell in the Cafe classifieds, and took my name off his waiting list.

The normal Rigel R-200 is strung with Thomastik mandola strings, with the addition of a Thomastik _light_ mandolin E. The resophonic uses D'addario mandola Flat Tops, along with the same E.
The key is the Thomastik light E -- I've never had a string break.
(The normal mando is for my "day gig", where I need to sound "Italian", and I'm amplified -- the resophonic was built specifically for sessions, and it sounds very cool, like the mandolin version of a cross between a banjo and a harp.)

I'd like to see "Celtic" mandolins (at least the 10-string ones) head in this direction, just cuz, well, I'd like to own one without having to pay the custom-build prices I've been paying.   :Wink:

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## Bertram Henze

> ...the mandolin version of a cross between a banjo and a harp.


Now I'm curious. Sound samples?

----------


## Jim Bevan

Ah, I don't have any, but I'll try to record and upload later (it's a lovely spring day, finally, here in Santiago, and we're all going to the park).

Anyways, that sound is not the direction I want "celtic" mandolins to go -- I just wish my Sobell was as durable as my Rigels, and had the same scale-length. (Or, I wish I had a Rigel that looks and sounds like my Sobell).

----------


## Mike Anderson

I'm going to let this go because it's even more off the original topic. :P

----------


## Michael Wolf

> I'm going to let this go because it's even more off the original topic. :P


To late, I already read it and it made quite some sense to me  :Grin: .

----------

Mike Anderson

----------


## Dagger Gordon

[QUOTE=nkforster;1316225]

Dagger made a very valid point which I quote in the article:

*“It’s maybe worth remembering that in the early seventies the mandolin was generally quite a prominent instrument in folky bands, and was used by the Dubliners, Fairport, Boys of the Lough, Planxty, Horslips, Hedgehog Pie, Lindisfarne, the MacCalmans and plenty others.

Indeed, when I started playing it (the mandolin) I actually thought it was a much more established ‘Celtic’ instrument than it turned out to be!*”

That it hasn't turned out to be such an established instrument (I feel) may well be down to the fact the majority of instruments easily available to Irish and British musicians can't cope in the "session arms race" when it comes to volume and projection. For playing at home, for gigs and recordings it's a different matter. Hence folk turning to resonators, tenor banjos or different instruments all together in order to play, hear themselves and contribute. And that's a shame. I can't promise I'm going to crack this particular nut, but that's where my efforts are heading just now."


Yes. At the time these early bands were playing, 'sessions' as we now think of them were much less common.
I would further add that relatively few people could play the fiddle in many areas, including the North of Scotland where I live. Now there are lots of them.  
Early sessions in bars were more likely to be much more song based, and a mandolin would in fact have stood out well over a bunch of guitars.  So to take quite a well known example, an early session in O'Donoghue's in Dublin would have regularly featured the grand voice of Luke Kelly (who incidentally played 5 string banjo ...) and other balladeers.
Around the same time (before I was playing mandolin) we frequently played guitars at parties and in the pub. We were happily singing stuff like The Wild Rover as well as poppier material and jamming on 12 bar blues (usually in E). Didn't think twice about mixing it all up, but certainly folk songs like Wild Mountain Thyme were good for getting the whole pub singing.
And as I say, the mandolin provided a nice contrast.

----------


## Dagger Gordon

Incidentally, this fairly long thread has not yet touched on the rhythm possibilities of the 'Celtic' mandolin, and it's plenty loud enough for that.

Last weekend at a local festival I saw Adrian Edmondson and The Bad Shepherds, with Troy Donockley on Uilleann pipes and cittern.
Adrian was mainly playing rhythm on this interesting instrument, and very effective it was too.
http://www.thebadshepherds.com/le-do...au-est-arrive/

----------

Bren, 

derbex

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## Jim Bevan

Well... maybe it ain't so harp-like these days -- the strings are maybe three years old. But at least it's not harsh-sounding, not too metallic-y, even though it's every bit as loud as a banjo, holds its own with pipes, etc.

And ya, the lovely jig Mattie and Karine's Wedding deserves another take, but pizza's on the way, the baby's fussing, so, good enough to hear the tonal qualities of my Rigel/National 10-string Resophonic Mandola. 
(The reason I play the Sobell more often in sessions is that it has a shorter name.  :Wink:  )

----------

Marty Jacobson

----------


## Bertram Henze

> Well... maybe it ain't so harp-like these days -- the strings are maybe three years old. But at least it's not harsh-sounding, not too metallic-y, even though it's every bit as loud as a banjo, holds its own with pipes, etc.


Sounding very good and fit for anything Irish in my ears. Three years??? Now I'm extra-curious how it sounds with new strings.

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## GarY Nava

As a professional luthier, who works extremely hard at producing the best possible flat-top mandolins that I can, at a price that is affordable,  I resent some of the implications regarding flat-tops here. I put as much love and care into my instruments as anyone could and I'm sure that many colleagues, who for whatever quirk of fate are not big names, do also.

----------

citeog, 

Denman John, 

John Kelly, 

Michael Wolf, 

Rob Zamites, 

Shelagh Moore, 

zoukboy

----------


## Mike Anderson

> As a professional luthier, who works extremely hard at producing the best possible flat-top mandolins that I can, at a price that is affordable,  I resent some of the implications regarding flat-tops here. I put as much love and care into my instruments as anyone could and I'm sure that many colleagues, who for whatever quirk of fate are not big names, do also.


Gary, this thread is full of disturbing implications to me...I mean, I admit I am not a mandolinist - only a formerly professional player/singer of "Celtic" music - but I find it verges on bizarre that so many of the mandolins I see are knockoffs of old Gibsons.

First off, frankly given Gibson's attitude historically toward copying e.g. a vintage L-5 guitar, I don't understand why the lawsuits aren't flying. Second, I am bewildered by the lack of desire for variety on the part of both the luthiers and their customers. I also can't help feeling I am spouting the worst kind of heresy in the mandolin community, simply by virtue of the _total dominance_ of this style of instrument, but I can live with any backlash because I am genuinely confused by this and just laying it out as I see it. Is it all just because Bill Monroe played one? I honestly don't know.

Thirdly, I would bet the majority of people insisting on the superiority of archtop instruments over flattop are not actually from "Celtic" regions, were not raised in "Celtic" traditions, and may even prefer bluegrass and other styles commonly associated with Gibson instruments to "Celtic." Please correct me if I'm wrong, folks, but I find it telling that every _known_ "Celtic" mandolinist - i.e. actually born and raised in the tradition - has used a flattop instrument. My latest discovery BTW is Dave Curley of Slide, who seems to be playing a Foley.

Gary, you have my sympathy. There is a lot of voodoo and fetishism associated with any instrument, and I hate to see it affect the success of the people who make them. As a good friend and outstanding musician said to me recently, "No one in the history of the world ever said 'You know, I like Hank Williams's music, but I'd enjoy it a lot more if he had used a baltic spruce top guitar with mahogany back and sides and Grover tuning heads'"  :Grin:

----------

citeog, 

GarY Nava, 

Rob Zamites

----------


## foldedpath

> First off, frankly given Gibson's attitude historically toward copying e.g. a vintage L-5 guitar, I don't understand why the lawsuits aren't flying. Second, I am bewildered by the lack of desire for variety on the part of both the luthiers and their customers. I also can't help feeling I am spouting the worst kind of heresy in the mandolin community, simply by virtue of the _total dominance_ of this style of instrument, but I can live with any backlash because I am genuinely confused by this and just laying it out as I see it. Is it all just because Bill Monroe played one? I honestly don't know.


With respect, I think you might have to play the instrumental side of this music to understand why many of the prominent players have chosen a type of mandolin that still "sounds like a mandolin," while also having some projection and volume. Especially in a band context, or even just playing with an accompanying guitar. If you haven't tried to do that, then you may not understand why some types of instruments are preferred over others.




> Thirdly, I would bet the majority of people insisting on the superiority of archtop instruments over flattop are not actually from "Celtic" regions, were not raised in "Celtic" traditions, and may even prefer bluegrass and other styles commonly associated with Gibson instruments to "Celtic." Please correct me if I'm wrong, folks, but I find it telling that every _known_ "Celtic" mandolinist - i.e. actually born and raised in the tradition - has used a flattop instrument. My latest discovery BTW is Dave Curley of Slide, who seems to be playing a Foley.


Well, now we're getting into some troublesome territory, and I hope we're not going down the path of thinking that only someone born in Ireland can play this music. Otherwise, I'm going to have to throw out all my Liz Carroll CD's. 
 :Wink: 

What is a "known Celtic mandolinist" anyway? As mandolinists, we're still outsiders trying to find our way into this music. A list of prominent and well-known mandolin players in the music playing _the instrumental repertoire_ might include the following...

Brian McDonagh (Dervish) -- Gibson H mandola, not sure what he's playing now. 
Simon Mayor -- F-hole A style archtop 
Luke Plumb (Shooglenifty) -- Daffy A style I think, also a Gil F5?
Marla Fribish -- Gibson A
Dave Swarbrick -- Gibson A
Dan Beimborn - A and F-styles
Kevin Macleod -- Sobell and National RM-1?

Some of these respected players are Cafe members, and I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm misrepresenting their current choice of instruments. 

This is not to disparage a well-made flattop. I wish I had the funds to own every type of mandolin that's even remotely connected to this music, and if I did, I'd own a flattop too. But meanwhile, I play a mandolin that works in all situations I encounter -- private enjoyment at home, playing out in sessions, and gigs where the mandolin is amplified. No amount of appeal to what's considered a "classic" mandolin for playing this music is going to change my personal choice for what to play this music on.

Just my $.02 opinion, your mileage may vary, and all other standard disclaimers!

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## nkforster

> As a professional luthier, who works extremely hard at producing the best possible flat-top mandolins that I can, at a price that is affordable,  I resent some of the implications regarding flat-tops here. I put as much love and care into my instruments as anyone could and I'm sure that many colleagues, who for whatever quirk of fate are not big names, do also.



Well it wasn't my intention to make people feel resentful after reading the article. But then inevitably whenever we take _any_ view we will find ourselves upsetting or arguing with someone. The sad thing is when the person who takes offence happens to be a hard working fellow professional. It's difficult not to take a word or a comment personally when our work is so personal to us, but please understand my intention wasn't to cause resentment, rather it was to stimulate a bit of debate, which so far seems to have worked.

I hope your irritation doesn't prevent you from finding other stuff in the article useful: For me it was really good to learn from Luke Plumb (who speaks very highly of flat top mandolins) about their limitations on stage with a mic. I didn't know this.

Clearly flat top mandolins do have a significant place in the "Celtic" market. Actually I would say they make up the lions share of "onion shaped" mandolins out there. Throughout the piece I and others point out the appeal of flat top instruments. Doesn't mean I have to like them though.

It's normal for these sort of disagreements  to get resolved with the "not better but different" line, but that's not how I feel about it. Now your flat top mandolins may well be magnificent Gary, I've never tried one, they certainly look very well made. How you do it for that price too  is beyond me, they're amazingly well priced.  It's possible playing one of yours could change my view, but I have tried quite a few flat top mandolins over the years and I've not liked them, hence the stance I take in the article. 

In writing the piece several things became clear to me - 

That the "Celtic" mandolin market is very limited and even the most sought after work commands prices far below their Bluegrass counterparts. 

There is (in the folkie world of mandolins) a very clear "two stage" price ceiling, of cheaper and pricer work and that breaks down pretty much to flat top/carved top. I know which ones I prefer but if your experience is different, that's fair enough. 

The reality is this: the majority of customers are happy with a flat top, and the majority of mandolin players in the folk world just accept the fact that in a session they may well have to take a different instrument. Carved or flat, onion shaped round hole mandolins rarely perform well in a session.

That there doesn't seem to be so much experimentation going on in either "school" whether it be flat top or carved top onion shaped mandolins. "Celtic" mandolin design does seem to be suffering from a certain amount of "ossification." Which may be due to the size of the market. There just isn't much in it for anyone to invest the time and effort to come up with a new design that works better. No one is going to get rich making and selling onion shaped mandolins.

That despite this, there is a _tiny_ gap in the market for a better Celtic mandolin, for an instrument that can perform in a session, on stage and in the studio. Whether it's flat top or carved top isn't so important, other than it will be far easier to sell a superior flat top mandolin as they're cheaper to make.

Until such an instrument appears the market will remain as it is and the mandolin will remain on the sidelines when it comes to "Celtic" music. 

For me personally it means I'm going to experiment with both designs- carved and flat. I never thought I'd be doing that, but we have to work with the market as it is, not how we want it to be. I've no idea what the outcome will be, but putting is article together has rekindled my interest in Celtic mandolin design, hopefully it will do the same for other makers and players too.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

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## Dagger Gordon

Some good points all round I think.

I think the context in which a mandolin is to be used is all-important here.
Whether it's mainly for sessions, or to be miked up on stage, or played at home etc is obviously going to make all the difference in your choice(s) of instruments, and indeed I think the question of which mandolin is 'best' for a session has often become too much the dominant issue. It's obviously not as loud as a tenor banjo or resonator instruments, but I really don't think volume is why most of us are actually attracted to the instrument in the first place.

With this in mind, I want to highlight a quote from the Belgian mandolin group MANdolin MAN, who I first heard of earlier this year. They play old Flemish tunes, which are not so terribly different from old dance tunes which might be found in Britain.
The interviewer is curious as to their selection of instruments, and here is what they said:

"I was intrigued by the range of mandolins on the album, from a vintage 1920’s Lyon and Healy B Style, to a modern bluegrass instrument, a Weber from 2010. When selecting the instruments I wondered did they spend hours agonising over the voicings you could get from the different types of mandolin?

Andries says, “We always searched for the best sound combinations from the mandolins. It is when mixing the different types of mandolins that a broad sound is created. Also, and this may sound strange but is perhaps obvious when you consider it, the choice of plectrums can really alter the sound an instrument can make. One advantage of having a range of mandolins comes at the mixing stage as you have all these different voices to work with and that adds so much more character to the recording. It also helps us to build a big sound from only four instruments.”

One refreshing aspect of the album is the band’s willingness to use instruments that are in the price range of the ordinary hobby player, for example they have a 2003 Trinity College Mandola, they retail for under €500 and would be seen as a well made improvers model. Andreis tells me the instrument has a really good sound and it worked well in combination with the other instruments. “We could have gone out and bought all sorts of very expensive mandolins, and as a solo player or a hobbyist who plays for themselves at home, that would be a temptation, but we knew what we really wanted was a sound from the ensemble and you know we didn’t have to spend thousands on getting the sound we wanted. As the idea was to set up a one off project, it was not the intention to spend too much money on the instruments.”

So for these guys, how the instruments sound TOGETHER is the critical issue. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxc9Hl4CII

----------

4 Course Meal, 

Bren, 

Nick Gellie

----------


## Wolfboy

Following this thread with great interest from the sidelines so far, but have to chime in on this:




> I would bet the majority of people insisting on the superiority of archtop instruments over flattop are not actually from "Celtic" regions, were not raised in "Celtic" traditions, and may even prefer bluegrass and other styles commonly associated with Gibson instruments to "Celtic." Please correct me if I'm wrong, folks, but I find it telling that every _known_ "Celtic" mandolinist - i.e. actually born and raised in the tradition - has used a flattop instrument.


Adding to foldedpath's list, I'd like to point out that Andy Irvine, Mick Moloney and Dave Richardson - arguably three of the most influential mandolinists in "Celtic" music, and all "from 'Celtic' regions" and "raised in 'Celtic' traditions," in your words - play archtop mandolins: Irvine and Moloney played vintage Gibson A models for years (don't know if they still are) and Richardson has been associated pretty much exclusively with Sobell for longer than just about anyone else I can think of.

As for the implied suggestion that one born and raised in the tradition and/or in a "Celtic" country bears an inherent superiority of musical judgement or ability over one who wasn't - if that was your intention, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I reject it flat out. As regards "Celtic" music or any other musical tradition.

----------

Paul Kotapish

----------


## Mike Anderson

> Following this thread with great interest from the sidelines so far, but have to chime in on this:
> 
> Adding to foldedpath's list, I'd like to point out that Andy Irvine, Mick Moloney and Dave Richardson - arguably three of the most influential mandolinists in "Celtic" music, and all "from 'Celtic' regions" and "raised in 'Celtic' traditions," in your words - play archtop mandolins: Irvine and Moloney played vintage Gibson A models for years (don't know if they still are) and Richardson has been associated pretty much exclusively with Sobell for longer than just about anyone else I can think of.
> 
> As for the implied suggestion that one born and raised in the tradition and/or in a "Celtic" country bears an inherent superiority of musical judgement or ability over one who wasn't - if that was your intention, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I reject it flat out. As regards "Celtic" music or any other musical tradition.


Thank you foldedpath and Wolfboy. Brian McDonagh plays an Abnett as Roger Landes pointed out to my many months ago, and the only pics I have seen of Andy Irvine playing mandolin show him with a flattop, but all that aside...

I absolutely, positively _insist_ that _of course_ people raised in those countries and traditions, and who originated that music and continue to inject their creativity and vitality into it are the best judges of what is appropriate not just in terms of instruments used, but more to the point, stylistically, and am _astounded_ anyone would suggest otherwise. I did NOT say that "nobody from other countries should play the music."

I'll frame my argument the way I did earlier in this thread and then deleted, and got an agreement with from a member:

Let's say I'm a Caucasian Canadian (which I am) who wants to play African percussion (which I have done). How do you think an African - and a lot of Caucasians - would feel if I said "here's the direction African drumming should go"? I'd be called a cultural thief and a neo-colonialist and undoubtedly a lot worse. And IMO, the people saying those things would be entirely justified. But I wouldn't do that. I'd practice an increasingly rare thing called _humility_ and learn from the cultures that originated that music and are the rightful people to guide its direction. It is at the end of the day not "my music" - I am a _practitioner and imitator_ of that music, and I stand in complete humility in the face of its long tradition, passion, and the genius of the people whose music it well and truly is - just as I did when playing African music, or Brazilian or Cuban.

This is exactly the argument I got in such trouble for at another forum, and I still haven't learned my lesson clearly - the lesson that people believe that because they can imitate a musical form that they have somehow acquired the right to dictate its direction and destiny. We are not rock stars here, people - our egos should not get in the way of what appears to me, glaringly, as common sense and common _courtesy_.

Your mileage may vary. Again, I did not say, and never will, that people from one culture shouldn't play the music of another. But I did say and will till my dying day that your saying so does not make it "your music".

----------


## Shelagh Moore

> It's normal for these sort of disagreements to get resolved with the "not better but different" line, but that's not how I feel about it. Now your flat top mandolins may well be magnificent Gary, I've never tried one, they certainly look very well made. How you do it for that price too is beyond me, they're amazingly well priced. It's possible playing one of yours could change my view, but I have tried quite a few flat top mandolins over the years and I've not liked them, hence the stance I take in the article.


I can understand your preference and, of course, we all have one but what sticks in my throat a bit Nigel, and I suspect those of one or two others, is your assertion in your article that carved top mandolins are "superior". I've owned many mandolins and probably even more guitars over the 50 years I've been playing including flat top and carved top models of each. I would not use the term "superior" in comparing them... they are quite different sounds. You may not like flat top mandolins and that is OK but some of us actually prefer them for some types of music for their particular acoustic characteristics. Other players may have different preferences. I also like carved tops for other types of music and own a National RM-1 which excels in situations where a decent tone plus volume is required.

----------

GarY Nava

----------


## Wolfboy

> I absolutely, positively _insist_ that _of course_ people raised in those countries and traditions, and who originated that music and continue to inject their creativity and vitality into it are the best judges of what is appropriate not just in terms of instruments used, but more to the point, stylistically, and am _astounded_ anyone would suggest otherwise. I did NOT say that "nobody from other countries should play the music."
> 
> I'll frame my argument the way I did earlier in this thread and then deleted, and got an agreement with from a member:
> 
> Let's say I'm a Caucasian Canadian (which I am) who wants to play African percussion (which I have done). How do you think an African - and a lot of Caucasians - would feel if I said "here's the direction African drumming should go"? I'd be called a cultural thief and a neo-colonialist and undoubtedly a lot worse. And IMO, the people saying those things would be entirely justified. But I wouldn't do that. I'd practice an increasingly rare thing called _humility_ and learn from the cultures that originated that music and are the rightful people to guide its direction. It is at the end of the day not "my music" - I am a _practitioner and imitator_ of that music, and I stand in complete humility in the face of its long tradition, passion, and the genius of the people whose music it well and truly is - just as I did when playing African music, or Brazilian or Cuban.
> 
> This is exactly the argument I got in such trouble for at another forum, and I still haven't learned my lesson clearly - the lesson that people believe that because they can imitate a musical form that they have somehow acquired the right to dictate its direction and destiny. We are not rock stars here, people - our egos should not get in the way of what appears to me, glaringly, as common sense and common _courtesy_.
> 
> Your mileage may vary. Again, I did not say, and never will, that people from one culture shouldn't play the music of another. But I did say and will till my dying day that your saying so does not make it "your music".


Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I contend that anyone who loves a musical tradition enough to immerse themselves in it - with humility, as you say - learning from the masters, developing a deep understanding of and identification with the culture from which it evolved, mastering the nuances of both technique and emotive content, et cetera, can in fact ultimately become a master themselves despite not being born into it. At that point, it _is_ their music, and they do acquire the right to contribute to dictating its direction and destiny.

I wouldn't want to be the one to call Bruce Molsky, for example, an "imitator" of old-time Appalachian music, with no right to contribute to its future directions, because he grew up in New York City. Likewise, for example, Stuart Duncan or Dan Tyminski for bluegrass (California and Vermont, respectively), or Tracy or Peter Schwarz for Cajun music (Pennsylvania), or the aforementioned Liz Carroll for Irish traditional music (Chicago), or the late Jerry Holland for Cape Breton fiddling (Massachusetts)...

One of the finest, and most knowledgable, Irish flute and whistle players I've ever heard is my erstwhile duo partner Michel Sikiotakis, a lifelong Parisian. Michel has put in the time and effort studying the music, learning from the masters, traveling through Ireland immersing himself in the tradition, and I'd put him up against just about any Irish-born flute player both for chops and for innate understanding of the music. Furthermore - importantly for my position on this issue - I've traveled with him in Ireland and seen for myself how the recognized master musicians in Clare and Galway respect and welcome him as a peer, fully their equal. (He was also in a band for a while with Gerry O'Connor and Niamh Parsons - they accepted him as an equal too, and I'd say that's endorsement enough...)

But we're getting a bit off track here. You have your opinion, I have mine, and I'm afraid I've met too many musicians born outside the traditions they adopted whom I would consider masters of those traditions for your argument to convince me. You might not consider them masters, and that's fine; we're each entitled to our opinions on this.

Back to flat vs. arched mandolins...  :Smile:

----------


## foldedpath

Here's another wrinkle on this topic, and I apologize in advance if I'm upsetting anyone with what I'm about to say. At least it has nothing to do with whether you're born in Erin or not. 
 :Wink: 

Getting out of your house and joining an Irish or Scottish session is the _crucible_, where you will learn how this music is played by people who aren't mandolin players. Because unlike Bluegrass or Oldtime or even the "Irish Folk Song Revival" stuff in the 60's, this music wasn't developed on the mandolin. It really has nothing to do with mandolin. We're finding our way in through the back kitchen door, picking up a few tricks from tenor banjo players, and finding ways to use the harmonic advantages of the instrument.

I admire the people listed in this thread who have gained recognition for bringing the mandolin to this music. But that's not who I learn from, even though I buy their CD's to see what they're doing!

I learn from fiddlers, flute players, and sometimes even pipers, who have been playing this music a lot longer than I have. These are the people you learn from, if you want to get beyond "Who are the famous Celtic Mandolin Players?". And you'd better be playing an instrument that can be heard, or at least heard by yourself, in that live learning environment with other instruments that have been in the tradition for a very long time. Yes, those instruments are loud. We have to deal with it.

I'm not saying it's impossible to learn how to be a good Irish or Scottish mandolin player just with solo practice at home. There are many places where access to a session with good amateur players just isn't available. I lived most of my life in places like that. But I am saying that there is a tremendous boost in picking up this  music when you actually join in with other people playing it, and who are probably playing other instruments than mandolin. 

If there are no sessions in your area, consider one of the many national and international workshops, where you will always be a minority as a mandolin player, but you will be exposed to incredible playing on other instruments, that may inspire you to explore what's possible on the mandolin.

----------


## nkforster

> I can understand your preference and, of course, we all have one but what sticks in my throat a bit Nigel, and I suspect those of one or two others, is your assertion in your article that carved top mandolins are "superior". I've owned many mandolins and probably even more guitars over the 50 years I've been playing including flat top and carved top models of each. I would not use the term "superior" in comparing them... they are quite different sounds. You may not like flat top mandolins and that is OK but some of us actually prefer them for some types of music for their particular acoustic characteristics. Other players may have different preferences. I also like carved tops for other types of music and own a National RM-1 which excels in situations where a decent tone plus volume is required.


Fair enough Richard. Thing is, without including my views the article might not make for such interesting reading, this thread has had a lot of posts and a lot of "hits" and that's no bad thing. But I'm not out to deliberately annoy fellow makers so I have rewritten some parts of the article. My views are still in there, as in the end, it's those views that influence the work I do. I've also added a section from my last post in this thread as it seems to sum things up well as I see them. 

Here it is again:
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/celtic-mandolin/

Now I hope folk will be able to get beyond the stuff that bugs them and read the other stuff in the piece that might actually be of helpful, informative or thought provoking.


Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com

----------


## Bertram Henze

> I learn from fiddlers, flute players, and sometimes even pipers, who have been playing this music a lot longer than I have. These are the people you learn from, if you want to get beyond "Who are the famous Celtic Mandolin Players?". And you'd better be playing an instrument that can be heard, or at least heard by yourself, in that live learning environment with other instruments that have been in the tradition for a very long time. Yes, those instruments are loud. We have to deal with it.


Second that. 
And looking at the plethora of personal styles we hear on these other instruments, I find that we should be allowed to do the same, i.e. try individual approaches. If you want to play this music right, you have to make it your own. The player is more important than the instrument - it just should deliver what the player needs. My needs were always to be heard and to get as much sustaining harmonies with the melody as possible, and whatever instrument gives me that is welcome.

----------


## Colin Lindsay

"For the purposes of this article we will compare and contrast a “Celtic” mandolin with the Gibson A4 and F5 models. Why? Because they have become the two “standard” mandolins used in western music today.”

I was once marked down on a philosophy essay for sticking too much to one text book and ignoring all the others. Sticking to Gibson mandolins as the ‘staple’ ignores all the other instrument makers working away and making some excellent quality instruments. Similarly it’s an enormous step to claim that something called a ‘Celtic’ mandolin has become the standard in so-called ‘Celtic’ countries? Yes, Gibsons are made such-and-such a way, and others aren’t; but these others are not all made the same. Yes, there is a brand of instrument aimed at the folk or ‘Celtic’ player, usually with swirly designs on the outside, but I’d argue whether these instruments-for-the-musical-tourists are actually a unique species rather than just artistic packaging. I know a few local instrument makers - UK and Ireland - and they seem to make a wide range of styles and shapes including custom-made versions, so I don’t think they’re all crafting identical instruments like little elves in Santa’s workshop. 
I just think the article is too much U S Grant - “I only know two mandolins.. one is Gibson, the other… isn’t…. "

----------


## Nick Gellie

Well I don't sit on either side of the fence when it comes to playing Celtic music.  I have a Mike Black A2Z copy of a Gibson mandolin.  It is a superb sounding and playing Celtic mandolin.  It has a Virzi tone producer inside it. It is beautifully balanced in tone and volume across the strings and it sounds just like the Gibson A model that Wayne Taren is playing in this video clip:




Here you have a Irish flat-top bouzouki and a carved top mandolin sounding great.  I have a Phil Crump B-1 bouzouki that is superb across the range.  it is clear, has beautiful resonant sound but not with too much sustain.  It has plenty of volume and projects and cuts well at the top end.  You can make it sound like a Greek bouzouki if you want.  I enjoy playing Balkan music on it as well.  I also enjoy playing backing chords for Irish and Scottish music on it.  I do like the Sobell long-necked bouzouki carved top as well - love the bell sounding notes one can get out of it.

And yes I have an Arches flat-top FT-0 with a cedar top and cocobolo back and sides and boy does that mandolin pack a punch, and sounds great through a microphone.  I have not had problems with feedback.  I love playing jazz chords on it because it is smooth yet deeper in tone than most other mandolins.  If I want to play Celtic music, I get out my Mike Black A.  If I want to play jazz and blues, I get my Arches flat-top.  I also recently made an Arches F-5 carved top mandolin that I love playing for bluegrass and old-time.

I can understand what Nick Forster is getting at. He is expressing his preference for carved-tops based on his own observations and experiences.  But I would not rule a good flat-top.  Gara Nava makes a great sounding mandolin.  They appear to be flat-tops:




He maybe has a different approach to Nick.

----------

GarY Nava, 

Rob Zamites

----------


## Nick Gellie

O I forgot one more thing.  To me the term Celtic mandolin means Celtic music played on a mandolin.  Dan in his earlier posts alluded to this.  I don't really mind if it is played on a carved or a flat top, just so long as it sounds good, there is clear articulation and great rhythm.  Tone of course comes into it of course but it is really up to the player.  BTW I don't bother going to sessions with a gaggle of fiddles.  I prefer playing in duets or trios, either with another mandolin, mandola, or bouzouki player.  Mandolin family  instruments in combination resonate off each other and sound great. Roger Landes's, Kevin Macleoud and Robin Bullock's work comes to mind.  Thanks Kevin for pointing us to your new album.  Great work!

----------

GarY Nava

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## Boatswain

Let's just all listen to what Tony has to say:



http://youtu.be/ThxECxTDLVA

On a serious note, I really have to agree with what a previous poster stated, that you have to "make the music yours." find some kind of connection to the music, internalize it, and play in a way that expresses your interpretation best. In doing so, you will only then be able to choose what type of mandolin is suited for your playing (ie there is no "one size fits all" "Celtic" mandolin out there).

----------

Beanzy, 

Bertram Henze

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## zoukboy

Nigel's blog post was posted on FaceBook and I commented there that my friend Luke Plumb's reasons for preferring archtop mandos are precisely my reasons for preferring flattops! Horses for courses.

I don't think it is fair to hold Nigel responsible for his article in the way that we would a historian, for instance. As a luthier/designer/artist it isn't his job to be comprehensive and objective. I read such pieces of advocacy the way I would a political op-ed. He is making an argument and a pretty persuasive one at that. I disagree with a few of his value judgments but that is fine with me. Imagine how boring it would be if we all agreed that mandolin x was the only one for "Celtic" music and then acted accordingly. I think that such episodes of slight controversy are actually healthy even if a few shins and elbows get scuffed. It reminds me of the old saying, "Disputes in academe are particularly acrimonious because the stakes are so low."  :-)

For my own part, I have owned mandolins made by Sobell (1984), Gibson (1913 punkin top A), and S.O. Smith (1998), and Newell (2009). I won't go into any perceived shortcomings of these instruments but the fact that I no longer own the first three perhaps speaks for itself.

I will say that for me the flattop, extended scale Newell ("RL" model) better supports my style, which relies heavily on left hand ornamentation as well as picked ("triplets," "trebles," "tribbles"). In order to play rolls and cranns on the mandolin with anything approaching they way they work on fiddle, uilleann pipes, flute, whistle, I need a super responsive instrument - lightning fast - with plenty of volume. If the first is lacking then the ornaments just won't happen. Without the second they won't be heard.

Also, I prefer the scooped out midrange on a good flattop because *to my ear* it blends better with the core instruments in Irish traditional music. I played a gig in Austin over the weekend with flute and fiddle and the blend was just about perfect, each instrument occupying its own part of the spectrum. But this is just one player's point of view. YMMV, NFI, etc., etc.

----------

Dagger Gordon, 

Paul Kotapish

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## danb

I don't own a flat-top at the moment- but I have a hankering to get my hands on a Vega cylinderback again  :Smile: 

Those are my favorite vintage flat-tops, and they are very cool. 

To be totally fair- there aren't really *any* wooden mandolins (just to leave resonators out for the moment!) that are "loud enough" to take the same lead role as a tenor banjo or a fiddle in a noisy bar. If the jam is big and noisy, the mandolin or mandola come along for backing and decoration, but I'll take something louder (resonator tenor guitar? Banjo?) or perhaps even borrow a friend's for a few leads.

I've been able to get some extra power from borrowed Loars and Ferns in jams, but those are fairly rare cannons.. and still won't cut over background noise like a tenor banjo can.

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## zoukboy

Just my two cents worth, but if I encounter a session where my mandolin cannot be heard then I don't play, whether it is due to background noise (bad location), or crowd noise (bad location/insensitive punters), or noise that is self-inflicted by other players. It's just that simple. And I love playing tenor banjo but not because it is loud. I try not to play the tenor banjo any louder than the mando because I want to hear the musicians I am playing with. Personally I hate it when there is competition in a session and completing for volume has very little to do with playing well. An overbearing banjo or accordion can be absolute death to a good session. If a musician can't hear me in a session then either the environment is too noisy, or there are too many players, or that musician him/herself is playing too loud.

----------

Beanzy, 

dmcginnis, 

Paul Kotapish, 

Rob Zamites

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## JeffD

A shout out and thank you to Richard Moore whose insistence I appreciate: that a resonator mandolin is a mandolin, not a "reso-lin", not a "mandolin-but-louder" or some kind of second cousin of a mandolin. Its a full member of the genus, along with the other species: carved top, flat top, bowlback etc.

And a comment to Foldedpath who says 


> Because unlike Bluegrass or Oldtime or even .... this music wasn't developed on the mandolin


 just to say that the mandolin is a newcomer to oldtime as well, and while pretty well established in many circles, can hardly be thought of as an instrument upon which the genre was developed, even slightly.

This is a fascinating thread. I wish all the threads were as thoughtful and as insightful and interesting. That we might not all agree all the time is just part of it. Great stuff all. Keep it up....

----------

zoukboy

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## kmmando

Here's a thread on Sobells mandolins elsewhere on the café

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...er-instruments

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## mikeyes

I've taken the liberty of shortening Kevin's Sobell demonstration to put in a few Gibson/Weber mandolin comparisons.  I don't have his version of The Log Cabin, and it's not a favorite reel, but here are a few short videos of me sort of playing the reel and demonstrating a few mandolins I have managed to get my hands on  I don't think this will resolve the issue of "Celtic Mandolin", but it can be the basis of even more comparison videos if anyone is interested in trying the same thing:

Kevin's Sobell:





Gibson A2



Gibson F2

http://youtu.be/cL7StfKC7qA?list=UU5...bwuOoFKavRZMqw

Weber Bighorn





Mike

----------

derbex

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## mikeyes

And One More:

Gibson F5V



Mike

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## mikeyes

And another:




Mike

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## John Kelly

That is a Celtic Mandolin, Mike, whether or not it has points and a scroll!  it's the way you play it and you certainly play Celtic (whatever that label might encompass) here.

----------

Beanzy, 

xiledscot

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## ddevine

I think if the article's title was "What is the preferred Celtic Mandolin", rather than
"What is a Celtic Mandolin" it would have been more on target to resolve some issues.
That may have not generated as much discussed.
It is unmistakable what is the preferred mandolin for Bluegrass and I think that holds true for
Celtic music as well.

----------


## Caleb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPXmVOKaMw

----------

Jill McAuley, 

MikeyG

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## brunello97

> For me a "Celtic" anything must be American to be authentically "Celtic", otherwise it just lacks the sense authenticity of modern marketing speak.


Would be more clever a riposte if Nigel K wasn't English. Or British. 

Mick

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## Beanzy

Many follow American trends this side of the Atlantic

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## Old Man In

"What is a Celtic Mandolin?" Who knows? Archaeologists have failed to find one miraculously preserved or even a drawing of one. We don't even know what music _sounded_ like around 500BC.
However, there are lots and lots of people out there playing what we call "Celtic" music on mandolins of all shapes and sizes, enjoying the sounds they make and having fun doing it.

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## Brian560

I have heard that the one characteristic of Celtic mandolins is that they have a flat back, because they are easier to set down on a pub table than a bowl back. I have heard mentioned a preference for round hole versus f-hole, and an A-style versus the F-style, but both are only generalities that are often broken. I have also noticed that many builders from Celtic regions specialize in building flat tops, and I would guess that is because they work well with Celtic style music: It also might be the influence of Portuguese instruments.

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## nkforster

Nice to see this thread come back to life. It might be an idea for some of you to read the article that came out of this thread:

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/celtic-mandolin/

Many of the points that have come up are covered in the post.

Nigel

----------

Ryk Loske

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## Bertram Henze

> ... they have a flat back, because they are easier to set down on a pub table than a bowl back.


Also, the pool of Guinness underneath makes a better adhesive that way...  :Whistling:

----------


## Dagger Gordon

Round-backed mandolins and round-bellied mandolin players don't go well together.

----------

Jill McAuley, 

OneChordTrick

----------


## foldedpath

> I have also noticed that many builders from Celtic regions specialize in building flat tops, and I would guess that is because they work well with Celtic style music: It also might be the influence of Portuguese instruments.


Well, flat tops are easier to make than archtops, and generally sell for less than a hand-carved archtop. So it's difficult to factor that out of the equation. I would say flat tops work well with Celtic style music, sure. But not necessarily better than other types that work equally well. 

To reiterate an argument I made almost 5 years ago on the first page of this thread:

In my opinion it's a fool's errand to specify what mandolin type is best for playing "Celtic" music, which is at best a marketing term. People are playing wonderful Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, Shetland, you-name-it traditional music on too many different types of mandolins. Just about anything works, within an appropriate context, in this very wide genre of music.

----------

Beanzy, 

Jill McAuley

----------


## Jim Garber

> In my opinion it's a fool's errand to specify what mandolin type is best for playing "Celtic" music, which is at best a marketing term. People are playing wonderful Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, Shetland, you-name-it traditional music on too many different types of mandolins. Just about anything works, within an appropriate context, in this very wide genre of music.


I agree with Mr. Path. In fact, with the possible exception of bluegrass music which sees a narrow sampling of instruments as proper for the genre (Gibson F-5, Martin D-28, flathead Gibson resonator banjo) most genres do not "require" a particular instrument. I have contributed to a similar thread on what a classical mandolin is and you get the same wide variety. What you can do is to guess the characteristics that appeal to players of a particuar genre. Generally, ITM leans toward more sustain and mid-range tones.

----------

Bob Clark

----------


## Brian560

It would have been nice if people posted pictures of Celtic mandolins instead of just writing about them

----------


## Paul Cowham

I think that the player is more important than the instrument, e.g. a player who specialises in playing Irish/Scottish music etc would sound more "celtic" on an F5 than a pure bluegrasser would playing say a Sobell. I went to a feis back in 2011 and had the pleasure of hearing Dagger Gordon playing in a (fairly) noisy session on his Collings A5, I could hear it from a distance and it definitely sounded "celtic" - (sorry Scottish  :Wink: ).

Anyhow, there is a local guy to me who makes instruments, David Lim (nfi), he makes Irish pipes and fretted stringed instruments (and is a very good piper himself) and also fixes my guitar. He has started making Gibson A style mandolins and sold a couple to local Irish musicians, of course this doesn't mean that that particular style mando is any more "celtic" than another but interesting to observe. Here is a photo of him and his mandos which I had a go on, they are great  :Smile:  https://davidlim-uilleannpipes.com/lutherie/

----------


## chuck3

> I Here is a photo of him and his mandos which I had a go on, they are great  https://davidlim-uilleannpipes.com/lutherie/


Some very nice looking instruments there!

----------


## nkforster

> I agree with Mr. Path. In fact, with the possible exception of bluegrass music which sees a narrow sampling of instruments as proper for the genre (Gibson F-5, Martin D-28, flathead Gibson resonator banjo) most genres do not "require" a particular instrument. I have contributed to a similar thread on what a classical mandolin is and you get the same wide variety. What you can do is to guess the characteristics that appeal to players of a particuar genre. Generally, ITM leans toward more sustain and mid-range tones.


It looks like we'll just have to agree to agree...

Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/

----------


## Dagger Gordon

NK Forster's article about this is the best and most detailed I have read.
(Post #110).
(By the way Nigel, I was interested to read your Workshop burglery update. I admire your attitude in this. I hope life in Oz is working out for you).


" I went to a feis back in 2011 and had the pleasure of hearing Dagger Gordon playing in a (fairly) noisy session on his Collings A5, I could hear it from a distance and it definitely sounded "celtic" - (sorry Scottish )." Post #116 Paul Cowham

Hey Paul Cowham, how are you man? Haven't heard from you for a bit.
My Collings is in fact an MT, which I've always found to be pretty good for what I do. 


I have found very different mandolins work fine for Celtic music. The context of what you want it for - ie mainly sessions in bars, stage instruments (perhaps with a pickup), just playing in the house, travelling around etc, is quite significant but there isn't really just one type for Celtic music, in the way that an F5 is considered to be what you need for bluegrass for example.

----------


## Paul Cowham

> Hey Paul Cowham, how are you man? Haven't heard from you for a bit.
> My Collings is in fact an MT, which I've always found to be pretty good for what I do.


Hi Dagger, all good thanks. Got married in 2014 and had a baby boy last May so plenty to keep me busy! 

Still managing to play music though, this was an interesting project - imagining what the musical output could have been in the mid 19th century when there was an Irish community on one side of the river Irk in North Manchester and a Jewish community on the other - both drawn there by the prospect of work - Manchester was the first industrialised city in the world.
https://www.wegottickets.com/event/432813

Hope you and family are doing well?

----------


## Jill McAuley

Another voice to add to the choir - Folks can and do play Irish/Celtic music on any type of mandolin:

Recently spent 3 days at Marla Fibish's Winter Irish Mandolin intensive workshop - there were two Girouard oval A's, five old Gibson oval A's, a Pava A5 and an old Slingerland A with f-holes - *all* the mandolins sounded great (the young lad, maybe 13 yrs old? with the Slingerland was a killer player!) - not a flat top in the bunch.

----------


## Randi Gormley

When you talk about celtic mandolins, i was going to mention Jill's new Girouard which you can hear (and her great playing) on her song a week thread. I did a gig last friday using my Eastman and I usually use my snake -- one a modern, one an old instrument -- and nobody seemed to object amid an audience that included a bunch of transplanted Irish who came to hear the music they grew up with, and a woman who grew up where the Tulla Ceili Band was from who showed me a video (on her phone) of a youngster, maybe 8 years old, playing on his mandolin which looked like an old Kay. So i'll (again) add my voice to those who said it's how you play, not what you play it on.

----------


## Dagger Gordon

> Hope you and family are doing well?


All good. Colin got married in September and lives on a boat near Bristol, Donald is getting married in June and moving to Shetland and we're just back from a month in New Zealand visiting the youngest who's there for a couple of years. Had a great time.

Meanwhile I'm playing as much as ever. I'm teaching mandolin at the Adult Feis in Ullapool this year and unbelievably I'm getting sent to Crete for a week next week to study under a guy called Efren Lopez (who I am a big and long-term fan of) at Labyrinth Music Workshop. Can't wait.
https://www.labyrinthmusic.gr/en/sem...-music-group-4

All the best. I have fond memories of you at Fort Augustus.

----------


## mrmando

> Round-backed mandolins and round-bellied mandolin players don't go well together.


On the other hand, a round-backed mandolin holds more Guinness.

----------

Dagger Gordon, 

Ryk Loske

----------


## OneChordTrick

> It would have been nice if people posted pictures of Celtic mandolins instead of just writing about them


Probably waiting until we have a definitive answer so as not to confuse the issue by posting a picture of a “wrong” one  :Smile: 

In the meantime here’s mine:



As I play mainly Celtic music I think it qualifies.

----------

Bob Clark, 

Brian560

----------


## seankeegan

I agree with the above statements; can be played on any type of mandolin. There's great players playing flatbacks - Declan Corey is an amazing player and able to take on the loudest session with his trusty flat back:




https://youtu.be/2EvJBGSahu8

I've always been a paddlehead fan, but recently I've really gotten into long necked ovals and find them great for playing Irish music, but to each their own.

----------

Brian560, 

Dagger Gordon, 

Jill McAuley

----------


## nkforster

Here is another...



Nigel
https://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

----------

AMandolin, 

Brian560

----------


## seankeegan

Irish traditional music played on a bowl back mandolin:

http://claddaghrecords.com/index.php...mandoline.html

----------

Dagger Gordon

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## seankeegan

Here's an interesting clip, Barney McKenna and John Shehan of the Dubliners with a mandolin duet:

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2015/111...mandolin-duet/

Barney's playing a Framus and John is playing an A5. 

And then this video:

https://youtu.be/eU8GC8Foyvk?t=2491

Barney's playing a bowlback and Eamon Campbell is playing an A5.

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## Brian560

Celtic Mandolin refers to a style of instrument and not a type of music. It doesn’t suggest that it is the best or only type of mandolin for Celtic music. It is just a type that is different from Gibson’s, or bowl backs, or any of the other types of instrument.

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## Bob Clark

> Probably waiting until we have a definitive answer so as not to confuse the issue by posting a picture of a wrong one 
> 
> In the meantime heres mine:
> 
> 
> 
> As I play mainly Celtic music I think it qualifies.


Sure is a pretty one!  Love the shape and color.  Thanks for showing it to us.

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OneChordTrick

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## seankeegan

Nigel, do you have any of this style of mandolin in Ireland? I'd love to try this, it looks beautiful.

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## Brian560

That is a nice mandolin. I also was admiring its choice of top wood. I like a lot of the mandolins that are called Celtic, both carved and flat tops.

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OneChordTrick

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## nkforster

> Nigel, do you have any of this style of mandolin in Ireland? I'd love to try this, it looks beautiful.


To be honest, I can't remember what I've sold that has ended up in Ireland. So I can't really help you there.

I made quite a few of those A shaped mandolins, but in recent years most folk have ordered the onion shaped ones. Truth is, I designed the onion shaped ones to sound as much like a shallot shaped A model as possible. 

Most folk after a new "Celtic' mandolin want one shaped like a Sobell. But I prefer the ones that sound a bit more like a Gibson in the bottom end. So my Celtic F and Celtic O look how folk expect it to look, but sound more like an American mandolin, which in general, I prefer the sound of. 

All my mandolins have some of that American woodiness in the bass and a bit of that "Celtic" sparlke in the treble. It suits the music well.

If you're after prices, you'd need to email me via my site so I can send you a € price list.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

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## nkforster

Here is one from 10 years ago. Same design.

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## Randi Gormley

Oh, well, if we're posting pictures of "celtic" mandolins, here's mine:

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Jill McAuley, 

seankeegan

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## Matt DeBlass

It has always seemed to me, and this thread has kind of reinforced, that while the Bluegrass world tends to be dominated by the F5, there's a wide variety of mandolin styles seen in Celtic music. 

And that Celtic F Mr. Forster makes seems like the type of thing I'd use if I were in the market, it's a wonderful sounding and looking instrument. 

In the mean time, I'll say my "Celtic mandolin" is the one I use to play stuff between harp tunes.

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Dagger Gordon, 

foldedpath, 

Randi Gormley

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## Dagger Gordon

I've always liked the sound of harp with mandolin and actually feel it's not a sound we hear enough.

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Matt DeBlass

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## Matt DeBlass

> I've always liked the sound of harp with mandolin and actually feel it's not a sound we hear enough.


If I could figure out how to play both of them at the same time I'd have quite the show! I don't get to play the harp with groups often enough, but when I do it's always fun to hear how it fits in (or doesn't, sometimes). I've gotten to do some local recording work where it's been in with guitar and hammered dulcimer, that's a fun combination of timbres

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## Al Trujillo

Perhaps this link about 'Celtic music' may be better posted someplace else but when I started reading it I thought of this thread. Anyway, I thought this article about the genre itself was enlightening.  

http://slowplayers.org/whats-in-a-name/

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Ranald

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## Ranald

> Perhaps this link about 'Celtic music' may be better posted someplace else but when I started reading it I thought of this thread. Anyway, I thought this article about the genre itself was enlightening.  
> 
> http://slowplayers.org/whats-in-a-name/


A thoughtful, and fairly accurate article, Al. It covers the same topic that I was making on another thread, post #13: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...estions-Needed. 
However, I question the author's saying that Irish music became popular thirty years ago -- perhaps that's when he discovered irish music, but a great many people outside Ireland were listening to and playing Irish music since at least the beginning of the 20th century (e.g., think of Tommy Makem and the Clancy's, The Irish Rovers, and the Dubliners in the 60's, and the Chieftains, Planxty, and Boys of the Lough in the 70's, or John McCormack in the 1910's and 20's. Those interested in the power and meaning of words, might want to read George Orwell's essay,"Politics and The English Language" (available online). However, I realize that a great many musicians love music, and don't care about labelling and such.

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## Dave Hanson

I started listening to Irish music over 50 years ago.

Dave H

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## Al Trujillo

I wonder if his intent was that Irish music became 'mainstream' and thus more popular.  Pre-internet there was vinyl and radio and before that music probably moved slow as cultures were uprooted and moved across oceans.  I agree that its been there for much longer than he states in the article but there are those, like me perhaps, who only discovered it just a few years ago.  Does Flogging Molly count as proper Irish music??   :Smile:

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## Ranald

> I wonder if his intent was that Irish music became 'mainstream' and thus more popular.  Pre-internet there was vinyl and radio and before that music probably moved slow as cultures were uprooted and moved across oceans.  I agree that its been there for much longer than he states in the article but there are those, like me perhaps, who only discovered it just a few years ago.  Does Flogging Molly count as proper Irish music??


If that's his point, he's wrong. Irish bands toured the east coast of the US and Canada since at least the early 20th century. My family in Atlantic Canada had numerous Irish jigs and reels in its collective repertoire (though we only have a touch of Irish in us), as did our neighbours. We called such music "old time" or "fiddle music", and not "Irish." It was from a fiddling neighbour in Windsor, Ontario, 2,000 kilometres away, that I first heard "Paddy On The Turnpike." There were various times when Irish music became mainstream in North America during the 20th century. Though I'd never heard of them, Tommy Makem and the Clancy's were very popular in the 50's and 60's folk revival. When I move around Ottawa, I meet numerous people, mainly over 55, but young folks too, who own their records and song books, and assume that every English, Scottish, or North American song in their repertoire is "Irish." These  people also play and sing their songs. In the mid-70's, the Chieftains were introduced to mainstream audiences outside the British Isles, by playing the soundtrack to the popular movie, "Barry Lyndon." There were a great number of other well-known groups, both vocal and instrumental, influencing North American music. In the early 70's groups playing in their styles, tended to call themselves "Irish," though their repertoires were often wider. By the late 70's, the term "Celtic" was replacing Irish. In fact, by the early 80's, I was getting tired of hearing so much "Celtic music " in Canada. At that time, "Celtic" musicians didn't tend to play the old Canadian repertoire of Irish fiddle tunes, but preferred the style of Counties Kerry, Sligo and Mayo. I'd certainly never heard of a "slip jig" before this time, or thought of "polkas" as Irish music. One writer claims that, in the 1970's, the Scottish multi-instrumentalist, Robin Williamson, formerly of the _Incredible Sting Band_, coined the term "Celtic" as it is used to describe music today, though the Breton harpist, Alain Stivell, must have used "Celtic" about the same time. All of which goes to show how complex such matters are. We could probably have had a similar discussion about blues, bluegrass, or Balkan music, to name just a few -- and that's just getting up to the letter "B.".

Is the American band, "Flogging Molly," Irish? You'd have to ask the Irish what they think. (They aren't claiming the American song, "The Unicorn," by the way) I noticed someone on the Cafe has posted an arrangement of "My Way." It was written by Paul Anka, who was born and raised here in Ottawa (believe it or not, I live on Paul Anka Drive), but may well be an American citizen. It was popularized by Frank Sinatra, and improved by Sid Vicious. What culture do we attribute it to? I'd just call it "pop culture". However, if the Pogues do a version, someone will soon be singing it as a "Celtic song" at your local session.

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Al Trujillo, 

OneChordTrick

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## Al Trujillo

I guess what's important is that the music of Ireland, however fine its hair is split is a lot of fun to play.  I remain facetious about Fogging Molly as I believe their roots are in Los Angeles.

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Ranald

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## Ranald

To further complicate matters: 
An Irish man in my city, who was brought up surrounded by traditional music, and came to Canada as an adult, sings the traditional Irish song, "The Wearing of The Green," _sean nos_ style. He says that he first learned the song from Johnny Cash (who, I assume, didn't sing it _sean nos_ style).

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## foldedpath

> A thoughtful, and fairly accurate article, Al. It covers the same topic that I was making on another thread, post #13: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...estions-Needed. 
> However, I question the author's saying that Irish music became popular thirty years ago -- perhaps that's when he discovered irish music, but a great many people outside Ireland were listening to and playing Irish music since at least the beginning of the 20th century (e.g., think of Tommy Makem and the Clancy's, The Irish Rovers, and the Dubliners in the 60's, and the Chieftains, Planxty, and Boys of the Lough in the 70's, or John McCormack in the 1910's and 20's.


Indeed, and to the point of this thread, some of them were playing the music on mandolins! 

Seán Keane, the fiddler for The Chieftans, mentions in their autobiography that as a child he had an uncle who was famous for playing traditional music on mandolin. This would have been in the Dublin area, somewhere in the 1920's or 1930's, based on Seán's age. 

Here's an interesting quote from the liner notes of a Mick Moloney CD: 

"The mandolin, a direct descendant of the lute, has been in Irish music since the turn of the century. Mick points out that (Mike) Flanagan started on it before he switched to banjo, and Barney McKennas and piper Paddy Keenans fathers were both mandolin players."  

Paddy Keenan (Bothy Band) was born in 1950, so his mandolin-playing father might have started then, but probably played earlier. 

The Flanagan referred to above is Michael Flanagan of the Flanagan Brothers, an Irish-American band active in New York City in the 1920's. It seems he was playing mandolin sometime in the period 1915-1920 when he switched to banjo. 

It's interesting to speculate about what kind of mandolins these players were using as far back as the 1920's and 1930's. Possibly Italian bowl backs in Ireland? Living in NYC, Mike Flanagan might have started on an early Gibson. Or it could have been an Italian mandolin with such a large Italian-American community in the city. 

Whatever they were using back then, it worked for the music. So I think this illustrates rather nicely why there is no specific design required, and not even the instruments used by the 1960's Folk Revival bands should be seen as some kind of template. Mandolin playing in Irish music goes back at least 40 or 50 years earlier than that. If we were applying strict Bluegrass-style rules for appropriate instruments based on the history of the genre, we'd have to do some deep digging on what these 1920's mandolins were. And then we'd probably all be playing Italian bowl back mandolins.
 :Wink:

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Bob Clark, 

Eric Platt, 

Ranald

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