# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  High end mandos worth it?

## Peoriamando

I was checking out a very high end mandolin from a "top name" recently with a price tag north of $15000. I have to say that the finish work on it was less than outstanding. I understand that vintage instruments are at times somewhat crude in the finish area but due to; psychology that I do not understand, still claim insane prices. This mandolin was fairly recent, so there can be no claims of "mojo" or "the top has been played in by hands graced by the angels of lost bluegrass souls".  This was just a mandolin that had a great name on it. I have seen mandolins from lesser well known makers that were 10 times better in the finish department and sounded great but claimed less than half the price. I understand that you get what you pay for when it comes to musical instruments, particularly acoustic instruments, but seriously, but there is some level of name brand snobbishness going on here if people are going to pay $19,000 for a mandolin that is just not worth it. Seriously, average sound, mediocre finish, insane price. I guess it is the same with Stradivarius violins.

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## Franc Homier Lieu

Was the name on it "The Troll"?

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Bradley, 

jesserules, 

Michael Weaver

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## Michael Weaver

I'm not biting....

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## bruce.b

Maybe, maybe not.

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## Mike Bunting

So don't buy it.

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## f5joe

What you or others buy or desire is their own business.  There is great diversity in both pricing, quality and value.  You can get a lot of bang for buck at modest to medium prices these days.

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## Astro

I understand what you are saying and agree. And no, I dont think you always get what you pay for. I think many pay too much for a name because they are unsure of themselves and want the outward assurances of a collective flock. There is a lot of superstition floating around. But like all collectible things, the mystic builds and builds and prices rise--until some day the bubble bursts.

The difference with the Stradivarius is their limited number (about 60 ?) so they become collectible objects in and of themselves regardless of how good they are and even if they dont sound great. If they have the name they will be reworked until they at least sound decent but they arent the same instrument anymore really--much like some of the Loars. 

But no doubt some of the med-high end mandos of today will likely be unheard of in the not too distant future. If its a forum fad you will be paying top dollar. That makes some feel better about their purchase I suppose and I'm as vulnerable as anyone. I have played some higher end mandos now and I have not found one yet that was worth the money to me so my search goes on. There were some really good mandos, dont get me wrong, but just not justifying the price they currently command. They've been "hyped up".

Martin guitars and Gibson mandolins will have collectibility by nature of the lineage name. So most likely that name recognition will offer some protection from depreciation even though many lesser known luthiers routinely make better instruments for far cheaper. Thats just the way the market directs. Its the flocks that drive the price after all.

Bottom line--ALWAYS PLAY THE MANDOLIN before you buy and let your fingers and ears tell you whether it is worth the money and not the flock of this or any other forum.

And I'm not mocking this wonderful forum as that advice is given by this forum over and over again.

Also, we all want to feel what we buy is worth it but we have to remember we are not buying an investment. We are buying an instrument for our enjoyment and to enrich our lives. So if it does this, then its worth the price to you.

Now finally, I see some see the OP as a direct disc to a mandolin being offered for sale somewhere and I did not pick up on that until late. My comments were not directed at any specific mandolin or builder. I do think there are interesting points of discussion here but I agree its not classy to be derogative of someones specific offering.

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CSIMelissa, 

Petrus, 

stevedenver, 

TylerM

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## bart mcneil

Yes. Apparently to someone, it is worth it.

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## Peoriamando

Not hardly a troll. A real player here in Phoenix Arizona. But I have never understood the fascination with certain names. Hey, if you have the money then go for it, it is your money to spend as you see fit and I certainly agree with market economics, but I just do not understand it. So collectors aside I do not understand what drives the instrument market. Insult me if you like but at least try and answer my question. What drives people to pay...I really would like to know.

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## Astro

_RE: "What drives people to pay (big money)" for anything_

The thing becomes, either by purpose or by happenstance, "an object of desire".

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## Peoriamando

Thanks Astro, you make a great point "Also, we all want to feel what we buy is worth it but we have to remember we are not buying an investment. We are buying an instrument to for our enjoyment and to enrich our lives. So if it does, then its worth the price to you" Maybe I should have asked how many people that buy super high end mandolins buy them for investment vs. some other motivating factor?

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## David Watson

Thanks for posting this thread! I have just started playing mandolin (in February) with a Fender 52E. I then found a Gibson A-150 A/E in excellent condition, and the siren call of a Kentucky 505 seduced me into bringing it home. All 3 have the same strings and I use whatever pick comes out of the ashtray holding mandolin picks. Could someone please help me as to why some days one of the 3 plays/sounds better? I can play the same piece with the 3 mandolins in turn and each plays/sounds/feels markedly differently and one of them sounds better? I am sure the collective experience/knowledge of this group can shed some light! Thank you.

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## Franc Homier Lieu

> Maybe I should have asked how many people that buy super high end mandolins buy them for investment vs. some other motivating factor?


Or asked any question at all in the original post.  :Wink:

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## sgarrity

You're getting a strong response here because this is a topic that has been beat to death on this forum.  Just like anything else it's simple supply and demand.  What drives the demand?  Lots of things.  Build quality, reputation of the builder, tone, who performs with one, etc, etc.  If you don't like it, don't buy it.  On the whole the expensive mandolins are worth it.  Get your hands on a really good Gilchrist or a nice Loar and maybe you'll understand.  Which brings me to my final point......you need to educate yourself.  Just like most art, you have to put in the study time before you can truly appreciate what you're playing.

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Amanda Gregg, 

Bob Clark, 

Ed Goist, 

f5joe, 

Hendrik Ahrend, 

Mike Bunting, 

nickster60, 

stevedenver, 

Timothy S, 

TylerM

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## Astro

> You're getting a strong response here because this is a topic that has been beat to death on this forum.  Just like anything else it's simple supply and demand.  What drives the demand?  Lots of things.  Build quality, reputation of the builder, tone, who performs with one, etc, etc.  If you don't like it, don't buy it.  On the whole the expensive mandolins are worth it.  Get your hands on a really good Gilchrist or a nice Loar and maybe you'll understand.  Which brings me to my final point......you need to educate yourself.  Just like most art, you have to put in the study time before you can truly appreciate what you're playing.


And another good point.

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## Peoriamando

I agree...it is beat to death. I see the same thing in nylon string guitars. But sgarrity, I am not new to music nor to mandolins. You mention build quality which is what I question in paying high prices for non vintage. BTW...I have never played a Gilchrest or Loar so I a cannot comment on them and that is fact. But I have played high end that falls in the same catagory, some are great, some...

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## CSIMelissa

> I understand what you are saying and agree. And no, I dont think you always get what you pay for. I think many pay too much for a name because they are unsure of themselves and want the outward assurances of a collective flock. There is a lot of superstition floating around. But like all collectible things, the mystic builds and builds and prices rise--until some day the bubble bursts.
> 
> The difference with the Stradivarius is their limited number (about 60 ?) so they become collectible objects in and of themselves regardless of how good they are and even if they dont sound great. If they have the name they will be reworked until they at least sound decent but they arent the same instrument anymore really--much like some of the Loars. 
> 
> But no doubt some of the med-high end mandos of today will likely be unheard of in the not too distant future. If its a forum fad you will be paying top dollar. That makes some feel better about their purchase I suppose and I'm as vulnerable as anyone. I have played some higher end mandos now and I have not found one yet that was worth the money to me so my search goes on. There were some really good mandos, dont get me wrong, but just not justifying the price they currently command. They've been "hyped up".
> 
> Martin guitars and Gibson mandolins will have collectibility by nature of the lineage name. So most likely that name recognition will offer some protection from depreciation even though many lesser known luthiers routinely make better instruments for far cheaper. Thats just the way the market directs. Its the flocks that drive the price after all.
> 
> Bottom line--ALWAYS PLAY THE MANDOLIN before you buy and let your fingers and ears tell you whether it is worth the money and not the flock of this or any other forum.
> ...


Well said.....

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## JeffD

> Not hardly a troll. A real player here in Phoenix Arizona. But I have never understood the fascination with certain names.


Certain names have the well earned reputation for making mandolins that sound better, play better, and are built better than most of the mandolins out there. 

That's basically it.

Not every one, not all the time, but it is true enough of the time to bet that way.

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Is it worth it?  Depends on what you are looking for.  They give plenty of people satisfaction so to them it's worth it.  It's all perspective.

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## sblock

> Not hardly a troll. A real player here in Phoenix Arizona. But I have never understood the fascination with certain names. Hey, if you have the money then go for it, it is your money to spend as you see fit and I certainly agree with market economics, but I just do not understand it. So collectors aside I do not understand what drives the instrument market. Insult me if you like but at least try and answer my question. What drives people to pay...I really would like to know.


It's not clear to me what you really mean when you keep saying that you "don't understand" why people are willing to pay more money for certain names.  Taking you at your word, you're saying that you don't understand something truly fundamental about economics!  Brand (name) recognition drives purchasing decisions in nearly all sectors of our lives!  It's not restricted to musical instruments by any means. And brand recognition is influenced by many factors, including (but not restricted to) company reputation, company longevity, word of mouth, advertising, trends, reviews, collectibility, resale value, perceived quality -- and actual quality, too!  Folks will usually agree to pay more for the brands they recognize and respect, even if brands less well known (or unknown) to them offer comparable or even somewhat better quality.  And no one collects items that don't enjoy brand recognition, so resale value is always higher for these.

Maybe it's not that you "don't understand" -- that is, fail to comprehend -- the economics of the instrument market.  Maybe you really meant to say that you understand it, but that you don't AGREE that recognized brands with strong reputations should command the high prices that they do.  You are entitled to hold that opinion, of course.  But "the market" (i.e., all mandolin purchasers)  dictates these prices, and your opinion scarcely counts against that overwhelming background.  But if you can convince enough mandolin-buying friends that there are better deals to be had out there -- and there usually are! -- then perhaps you can start your own trend?

Meanwhile, it's been said many times on this forum, and I will say it again. *A mandolin is "worth" whatever folks are willing to pay for it.*  Which is not necessarily what you think it's worth to you! And don't confuse this "worth" (fair market value) with "value" (quality per unit price paid, or something like that), either.  These things aren't the same. 

Meanwhile, it is certainly true that collectors drive up the prices of  some mandolins to the point where one begins to wonder if they will still hold great value.  And it is true that some luthiers enjoy reputations (hard-won!) that allow them to command top dollar for their instruments (e.g., Gilchrist, Nugget, Monteleone, etc.).  And that one particular company -- Gibson -- has the longest-lived reputation in the bluegrass mandolin world and continues to drive a large segment of the market. 

You wanted to know what drives people to pay more.  The answers are as varied as the people who play, but it all ultimately hinges on things like brand reputation/recognition, perceived quality/sound, and projected resale value. *It hinges on economics.*   And I bet you can understand that if you give it some serious thought.

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Amanda Gregg, 

Austin Bob, 

Bob Clark, 

f5joe, 

farmerjones, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

TylerM

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## JeffD

I don't think it is possible to garner the higher prices and become a "name" mandolin without consistently making better instruments. One could not ride on reputation alone for very long. 

Of course there is hype, but we buy mandolins to play them, and when we play them we hear them.

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## Jeff Mando

With acoustic guitars, the difference between a $200 guitar and a $2000 guitar is huge and obvious, soundwise.  The difference between a $2000 guitar and a $5000 guitar is much more of a subtle thing.  Going from $5000 to $10,000 or more is even more subtle, BUT it is there and can always be heard, at least to most ears.

With boutique mandolins, you can also add in the maker's reputation, demand, waiting list, etc., to the equation.  A maker working by hand can only produce so many units a year.  And, of course, there also is a hype/flavor of the month aspect to be considered with some makers.

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## fatt-dad

I think there's as much variation in the sub $3k market as there is in the sub $15k market. I think there are great mandolins in both.

f-d

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## abuteague

Having been on this forum for a while I am no longer surprised by people who value different things in mandolins than I do. There are people who will spend 10 times more than I do on a mandolin and also people who will spend 10 times less. Some people have half the mandolins I do and some have 10 times the number of mandolins I do. Some people buy and sell and buy and sell them like seasonal outfits and others hold onto a precious few. Some brands I really respect (and own) are critically reviewed. Some people love the vintage instruments and think that is the only way to go. Some will never own an a-style mando ever. Some will pay for history or 'mojo'. It isn't newsworthy to me that someone didn't like a $19K mandolin. That is to be expected. That mandolin might be not worth it or it might be someone's beloved. The question is... is it worth it to you? If not, well, I'm not really surprised. There are many mandolins out there that are not right for me and cost more than I would pay. It may well be the same for you. As the prospective buyer, it isn't really worth losing too much sleep over things you pass over.

My experience is that my taste in mandolins changed as I played, listened, and gained experience. I have tried over-valuing the advice of others only to be disappointed. I went to buy an expensive brand-name mandolin that was supposed to be the one. People told me it was great. I tried it out in the store and I was not impressed. I questioned myself. I wanted it to work. I wanted that approval of people who "know." I wanted people to see the mandolin I own and to respect what I had. However, I left with something that sounded better to me and was less expensive. I mean, come on, who plays it day after day? The arm chair critics would scoff at my choice, but I got what spoke to me. I say go with your gut and who cares who says it is worth $15K. If it isn't worth that to you, then it isn't worth it. Don't buy it because someone else says it is good, buy it for you.

I enjoy what I have. That matters more to me than the price tag.

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Astro, 

Bob Clark, 

darylcrisp, 

f5joe, 

Loretta Callahan

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## EdHanrahan

> With acoustic guitars, the difference between a $200 guitar and a $2000 guitar is huge and obvious, soundwise.  The difference between a $2000 guitar and a $5000 guitar is much more of a subtle thing.  Going from $5000 to $10,000 or more is even more subtle, BUT it is there and can always be heard, at least to most ears.


But look around, people...  _it's not just instruments!_   EVERYTHING made by man, plus plenty that is not, is priced/costs the same way!  The topic of this conversation is *so* common that economists long ago named it:  "The Law of Diminishing Returns" says that every incremental increase in quality requires a much higher cost/price than the prior such increase in quality.

That is, making a $100 instrument twice as good might well cost _just_ another $100 dollars.  Making a $5,000 instrument twice as good can't be done for $100 or even for another $5,000.  It's SO good already that making it "twice" as good will cost _many_ times more than the original 5K.  Cars, clothes, candy, houses, cooking utensils...  probably even toothpicks, they all work the same way!

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## almeriastrings

Depends...

On a lot of things. You say "just not worth it" - but possibly, to someone else, it might be worth it. Maybe they evaluate it on a different basis, for example. Maybe they hear something in it they really like...  if more than one person is willing to pay $19K for it, then clearly, it_ is_ worth it to some. 

For myself, I would certainly expect a very high standard of "fit and finish" in any new $10K+ instrument. All those I have seen myself in that kind of range _have_ been without exception, extremely good.  I have not yet encountered a "rough" one... but doubtless there may be "lemons" out there. Maybe you found one.

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## Petrus

> That is, making a $100 instrument twice as good might well cost _just_ another $100 dollars.  Making a $5,000 instrument twice as good can't be done for $100 or even for another $5,000.  It's SO good already that making it "twice" as good will cost _many_ times more than the original 5K.  Cars, clothes, candy, houses, cooking utensils...  probably even toothpicks, they all work the same way!


That's not always true. That's why the luxury market niche is considered very high-margin.  Particularly with luxury car versions of lesser models, it's quite easy for the manufacturer to throw in some value-added doodads and shiny objects that attract the buyer, thus turning a $30K Chevy into a $60K Cadillac, though they may have the same underpinnings, engine, and reliability.  A C-Class MB is a pretty decent car that can be had for less than half the cost of an E or S class, with almost all the same fit & finish and same knobs and seats, etc.  Now, if you're talking high-end bespoke cars that are individually hand-built, or a $50K wristwatch, that would be a better comparison with high-end instruments.

For a five-figure mandolin, the builder better take a page from the Rolls Royce playbook and fly a technician out to my house to change my strings and reset my bridge when needed.  :Grin:

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## roysboy

I believe that for many people , 15,000 dollars doesn't mean the same thing as it does for most of us . I'm a house painter and regularly paint million dollar homes in Vancouver . The painting bills can run 15,000 dollars and often far more . It's not even an issue for our customers . I'm certain paying 15,000 for a mandolin isn't an issue for many regardless of whether it does or doesn't sound as good as one costing a fraction of that and has a far superior tone etc . If you WANT that mandolin because of the name and cost isn't an issue YOU are the market the builder is interested in .

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Astro

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## Petrus

> Maybe I should have asked how many people that buy super high end mandolins buy them for investment vs. some other motivating factor?


I don't know. I think it'd be pretty sad, though, that someone could buy a nice instrument and never even take it out of its case and just store it away for investment value only, but that's their loss.

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## almeriastrings

Very few, if any, modern mandolins are great "investments". Good, really desirable examples may hold their value or increase a bit over time, but I'd be surprised if they did as well as other things might.

Vintage instruments have much better investment potential - IF you can find them and buy them at the right price.  That is now a very big "IF"! It is getting a lot harder than it used to be. It used to be fairly easy as hardly anyone wanted "old" banjos or mandolins. Now they see them on TV and on Ebay and think they're all worth a fortune.

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## almeriastrings

_Duplicate post_

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## Ron McMillan

Yesterday I finally managed to make a pilgrimage to TAMCO in Brighton, England, where I was astounded by the selection of quality instruments, and was able to play many of them, from a $2,000 Weber Gallatin (so-so), up to a spectacular Monteleone listed at about $27,000. 

In most cases the price on the sticker pretty much reflected the quality of the sound, with one exception. A used Pava A5, at 'only' about $3,000 was the instrument that grabbed me most. I've read speculation here that Pava's instruments are not going to be so reasonably priced for very long, and going by my amateur assessment, I'd say such speculation is justified. That A5 is already the stuff of dreams. For a while, at least, Pavas are available at a price that makes a temporary lie of the 'you only get what you pay for' rule.

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Perry Babasin, 

Tobin

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## Ivan Kelsall

I'd certainly expect a 'top luthier's' mandolin to be first class with regard to the actual build & finish. Regarding the 'sound',it's your opinion against that of the rest of us,as to whether it's 'average' or not,because we all like what 'we' like,not necessarily what 'you' like._I fully understand you point however_,but even some Lloyd Loar mandolins sound 'better' than others to 'some' people. If the mandolin was as you say,poorly finished,then the luthier was doing himself a disservice in sending it out like that. Regardless of what we as individuals think of any 'item',somebody will come along who thinks it's the finest 'item' ever created - so be it !, :Grin: 
                                                                                                                                                                     Ivan :Wink:

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## trevor

Hi Ron,

Sorry I missed you yesterday. I was with my daughter who has been in a bad accident, but she's doing fine now, I forgot you were coming, if Ed had let me know you were in the shop I would have joined you.

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## Petrus

> Yesterday I finally managed to make a pilgrimage to TAMCO in Brighton, England, where I was astounded by the selection of quality instruments, and was able to play many of them, from a $2,000 Weber Gallatin (so-so), up to a spectacular Monteleone listed at about $27,000.


It's kind of scary to learn that a $2,000 mandolin can be "so-so."  Was there something not quite right with it?

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## Nick Gellie

To pay 15k for a mandolin, you really have to know what you are doing and what to expect from a high end mandolin.  It is just a matter of values and taste.  Some people just have expensive tastes and want to be seen with the very best they can afford.  Others perhaps are happy with a mandolin that costs much less and plays and sounds almost as well.  The latter may lack certain richness of tone and projection but it can play just as well through a microphone or in a jam.

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## MikeEdgerton

> ...And no, I dont think you always get what you pay for...


Well, let me see. If you buy a mandolin for what you want to pay for it you got what you paid for, otherwise you wouldn't buy it. You might not think someone else didn't get what they paid for but then again you wouldn't be the one paying for it.

I have a whole lot of musical instruments. I think I got what I paid for. Your mileage may vary and you might think I paid too much for what I have but is that your decision to make for me? I don't think so.

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Its also human nature - when people see someone driving a nice new Mercedes, they often make certain assumptions.  These things are status symbols.  Why?  You see your favorite mandolin player play a particular brand and you want to be like them.  If I play that brand I will sound like them.  Would Dudenbostals go for 20k plus without Chris Thile.  Would we know Apitius mandolins without Steffey? Would Monteleone's be as sought after without Grisman's help in the early 80's?  If a game changing player makes his name or becomes a huge supporter of a maker it can have a huge impact on selling price.  Just like any other products-Air Jordans for example.  That's not to take away from the quality of these instruments but to be at the absolute top you have to have more than just great tone and strong fit & finish.

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Michael Weaver

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## Astro

Lets not twist things around here Mike.

I'm not trying to make decisions for anyone. Im struggling to find answers for myself. I think you have a point. But I think its also true sometimes folks get caught up in the hype and because they dont have a solid foundation of the essence of what they're after, they get caught in the collective mysteek and pay big money for a name on an average instrument. It may be worth it to them at the time but as they learn more they realize what occurred and they find instruments that sound and play better for them without that big price tag (but alas probably without the social cache of the "in crowd" brands). And sometimes thats why you see their fancy-pants mandos in the classifieds instead of staying in their daily arsenal. And anyway, what we think we want today, certainly sometimes changes tomorrow. Same with the brands.

And finally, if all that matters is what we think matters, then there really is nothing meaningful we can say to each other about anything and no need for a forum or for any struggle to find objectivity or science or anything else for that matter. If we feel that all that matters is what we believe to be true, then we've won any argument. ... There is no reality...or the only reality is for you to decide...Of course the reality is thats exactly when we loose it.

And it may be true that we have to educate ourselves to be able to appreciate why a mandolin is worth 15,000 dollars compared to another priced at 7000 dollars. And its just as true that we may need even more education to appreciate why its NOT. Education is almost always a good thing and that principle of appreciation cuts both ways when it comes to justifying mando prices to OURSELVES.

Of course as stated before, the only thing that justifies a price in the market place is what someone is willing to pay. But thats not how I want to base my decision for the next mando.

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## AlanN

Mike E said: Well, let me see. If you buy a mandolin for what you want to pay for it you got what you paid for, 


Dang Mike, I got my tang all toungled up when I tried to say that  :Mandosmiley: 

I agree with Atlanta Mike on the fact that a cerain player lending their name to a brand just raises the bar (i.e., price) considerably. Even in Loar's day, the fact that his name was tied to the product made them very desireable.

And I know his...how? Why, I was there, of course...

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## Timbofood

Well, I was waiting but, I guess now is the time.
As far as high end anything is concerned, it's only worth it if someone buys or steals it(insurance value). Otherwise, it's an ornament.
If I had the wherewithal, I would buy a mandolin from a friend of long standing (I will not disclose, but, most of you know who I am talking about) and do so happily. That being said, I had the opportunity to play a Derrington F-5 and it just didn't have "it" for me. I may have not had enough time with it but, you see my point.
Supply and demand are determining factors in any luxury items, another factor is the perceived value because "X" plays that model. We so often buy with heart over head, we are romanced by the fact that someone famous plays such and such.
From the mechanical side, the price is also driven by the cost of the learning curve of a small builder. They have spent years learning their craft and I think they deserve some return on their investment in time. 
OKey Dokey, I have had my time, moving along.

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## Tom C

I find the mando market follows the housing market. When economy was doing very good 10 years ago... house prices at the peak...etc. Many people had a lot of spending money. High end builders had a 7-9 year waiting list. Those who did not want to wait were willing to spend 20K+ for their dream mando. Well, the builder was committed to prices they agreed to at the time of contract. say 7K or 9K and the people were turning around and selling them for 3X that amount. So ofcourse they stopped taking orders until they can catch up/ House prices came down,  but the mando prices have seemed to have stayed. I see how much they are asking but do they sell for these prices? I get to play one frequently (Not mine) and I think so when it's in my hands.

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## lloving

There are many reasons to acquire a mandolin. For me there are two possible reasons, to collect or to play. With much effort I have been able to largely shed the desire to collect. I mean no disrespect to those that do collect, I wish I could afford to own the instruments I admire, but I can't.

That said I fall back on an often used process of choosing an instrument to play. I call it the "Blind Evaluation". Cover the head stock and the price tag and make your selection based on your own subjective evaluation of the characteristics you feel are important. This is where a competent well stocked music merchant is vital. Such merchants are few and far between but are worth the search. Yes you will pay more for the opportunity to make your "blind" selection but you will be a more satisfied player. 
So...to me the the relative price of a given instrument may be more easily understood after I have had the opportunity to play that instrument, shall we say, blindfolded. 

LL

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## Rex Hart

I always find it amusing when someone offers up sound bites of low to mid range to high end mandolins, how most on here (including me) can not tell you which mandolin played what. the name on the headstock definitely influences the ears. Just saying.......

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Timbofood

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## LongBlackVeil

> It's kind of scary to learn that a $2,000 mandolin can be "so-so."  Was there something not quite right with it?



I always say this but I'll say it again.

The wood doesn't know how expensive it's supposed to be. Wood is one of the most important things that determines an instruments sound, along with construction of course. Though you can have the best construction in the world but if the wood is dead the instrument will be a dud.

That is why a very cheap instrument can sound better than a top of the line mandolin. There are often "grades" of wood, but that is based only on appearance not sound. Most manufacturers don't even try to pick out which pieces of wood will sound good and get rid of the ones they think will sound bad. They use whatever wood they have. It's difficult to judge what wood will sound like, it takes a lot of experience. I think most of the luthiers do try to tap test the wood and pick out the good pieces

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## trevor

I think Ron was referring to an old mahogany backed Gallatin that I have which has a different tone to maple backed instruments.. I expect he will chip in soon.

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## terzinator

> I always find it amusing when someone offers up sound bites of low to mid range to high end mandolins, how most on here (including me) can not tell you which mandolin played what. the name on the headstock definitely influences the ears. Just saying.......


It's no surprise that recordings do even the playing field. With a high-quality mic, a good mandolin can sound GREAT.

----------

Atlanta Mando Mike

----------


## Jeff Hildreth

I have seen and played some of the revered modern makes.  Some excellent, some.. as with the OP, I don't get it.  
For the amount they require, you would think they could hit the basic "bases" of fit and finish.

However, in the violin world, exacting fit and finish does not seem to be as important. I recall a op ed by Frank Ford where he discussed this same topic, that violins get a pass and other instruments get ripped for "flaws" which others would call character marks of hand craft and artistry.

I still suggest that basic craftsmanship could come along with the price tag.

I have a friend who purchased one of the famed makers F styles many years ago, even then the price was triple most other modern makers.  I did not get it then, and I don't get it now. The instrument is not that well crafted, though it sounds great. And that is why it was purchased. Different values and expectations.

As to the number of Stradivarius instruments produced, no one knows. The number that have survived (though most are modified) is close to 700.  He was prolific maker and lived a long time.

As to Mercedes-Benz quality. As a former M-B factory rep.. no you don't get the same car for 1/3rd  the money. The components vary in quality by model. A new age M-B is not the same quality as 20-30 years ago.  The base M-B in 1985 was $25 K.  You can still buy a new one at close to that. Something had to be compromised.

----------


## JeffD

> Maybe I should have asked how many people that buy super high end mandolins buy them for investment


Very few I would think. Its possible I suppose. I always hear about some very wealthy guy who is trying to corner the market on a particular type of guitar by buying up as many as he can.

But I think that the overwhelming majority of high end mandolins are purchased to own and play and enjoy.




> vs. some other motivating factor?


I suppose that when you have enough ability and discernment to tell which mandolins are made well, and the discretionary resources to spend, then one motivation might be a plain old visceral desire to own the best. To immerse oneself in quality.

----------


## sgrexa

This discussion has appeared before and no doubt will appear again. When I first started mandolin in the mid-90s, I must admit that my first run-ins with several high dollar mandolins left me a little bit disappointed. If you are only familiar with a high grade Weber or Kentucky or whatever, you likely already have a mandolin that is more than serviceable for 99% of us. Expectations after that might be unrealistic. You are probably expecting to see perfection under those fingerboard extensions, and inside those scrolls when in reality, those areas are nearly physically impossible to make perfect. For the most part, I think many modern builders are executing these finer points as well if not better than Gibson did in the 20's. You have to keep in mind that the craftsman at Gibson did not have the luxury of time nor access to the modern tooling, jigs, and many other advantages and advances available some 90 years later.  It is also important to keep in mind that there are a lot of things you don't see tucked away inside that box like graduations on tonebars that might be very minute, but have a very significant impact on the end result. Some of these subtle barely noticeable features were developed after decades of experience gained by building hundreds of instruments. Sure you can get an Eastman F5 with an oil varnish finish for a little over a grand and it will likely be a nice instrument, but I can guarantee you there will be a noticeable difference in quality from one of Steven Gilchrist's masterpieces. There will be a noticeable difference in the way it feels too, which is one of those things that is very subjective and hard to describe.

I feel that professionals like Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, and many others would play any mandolin that offered them the most comfort, ease of playing and best tone available to them regardless of price or name on the headstock. The results speak for themselves. Personally, I have owned many mandolins at all different price ranges in my long and ongoing search. It has been an education and I still have a lot to learn. I tried to find an inexpensive mandolin that would offer the things I like and came very close a few times. The problem is, once you experience that little something extra that is usually only found in the higher end stuff, and hard to put into words or quantify, it is very difficult to accept anything less. What would I do differently, knowing what I know now? I would have purchased a moderately priced mandolin that played and sounded good, and stuck with that one box until my playing attained a level that warranted something better. I would have been far better off spending all that time, energy and money on lessons, mando camps, festivals, DVDs, etc...whatever it takes to get your playing to the next level. There is no substitute for putting in the long hours practicing and refining your chops and technique. There are numerous examples on Youtube of people playing inexpensive mandolins that are at a level seemingly far exceeding that of the instrument they are playing. Really good players rarely seem to over think and nitpick things like us mere mortals, they just do it.

Sean

----------

Cecily_Mandoliner, 

darylcrisp, 

DataNick, 

Misty Stanley-Jones, 

Zissou Intern

----------


## AlanN

> Maybe I should have asked how many people that buy super high end mandolins buy them for investment vs. some other motivating factor?


At one time in the not-too-distant past, this was feasible. Early to mid 90's. Housing, stock markets were exploding. Certain instrument makers were fortunate to be around, at that time. I remember buying a Gilchrist and showing it to a picker friend (a Loar owner). He immediately ordered 2 from Steve for, as he put it, "my retirement". I actually think he received them, checked them out and cased them up, to do just that.

----------


## Denny Gies

I personally think JeffD is correct.  Big names are big names for a reason; they have built instruments that are of high quality in both construction and sound.  Not all are "great", but a luthier's reputation is built over the years and the good to great ones hold up over time.

----------


## Ron McMillan

> It's kind of scary to learn that a $2,000 mandolin can be "so-so."  Was there something not quite right with it?


Maybe it was only so-so because of the calibre of instruments I had been playing before it. Or maybe it was because it was a mahogany instrument (I think).

----------


## Atlanta Mando Mike

I personally think the big jump in valued coincided with the rise in home prices as discussed earlier, but also the dot com bear market in 2000.  Many folks saw their retirement accounts plummet, and got into instruments after deciding they want off the ride.  This pushed up the price of many that were sought after-especially Loars that went from 30kish to over 100k in a few years.  I also think some people thought - "I have retirement money that I can enjoy and play by buying instruments versus sitting in an account in a market that I'm not confident about."  Thus entered the era of normal people buying lots of high end mandolins with their retirement savings.

----------


## Caleb

This thread reminds me of a time when I was in FQMS back when they had lots of nice stuff on the wall. I played about 15 "nice" mandolins, and honestly, none of them sounded very good.  But this is where it helps to understand mandolins a little.  My own mandolin never sounds very good till I've been playing it for 20 minutes or so; then it really comes alive.  Many of those mandolins on the wall had likely been there a very long time without being played, some had old strings, and some had poor setups.  Given a setup, some new strings, and a lot of hours playtime, they would sound much different.  

Sometimes when I watch YouTube vids of shops selling mandolins, I cringe.  Some salesperson picks up a "nice" mandolin, sits down in front of the camera, grabs a floppy guitar pick, and proceeds to hack away at the thing like he's swatting flies.  Any mandolin is going to sound terrible like that.  A person needs to know how to actually PLAY a mandolin before it even has a chance of sounding good.  This matters when you're in a store ignoring headstock labels and having someone play them all for you.  A good ear can pick out potential, but sometimes it can be hard.  

Regarding why some things are expensive, remember back in the late 80s/early 90s when you could buy a "vintage" Fender Jaguar in a pawnshop for $100?  Then Kurt Cobain came along playing them... Same things happens with mandolins.  Some of it is tradition, some famous players, and some of them are just that good and worth the price.

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## Jeff Mando

> The wood doesn't know how expensive it's supposed to be. Wood is one of the most important things that determines an instruments sound, along with construction of course.


Beautiful quote!  And true.  Reminds me of the "blues nuts" who just discovered birch tops and ladder bracing, because that's what the "old blues guys" played--certainly a belief that would not exist without internet forum discussions.  The "old blues guys" played birch and ladder bracing because it was the cheapest way to buy a guitar.  It amuses me to think a luthier would spend time recreating a designer version of a $2.98 catalog guitar from the 1920's, and boast birch top and ladder bracing--something a bluegrasser wouldn't go near for love nor money! (think how good the blues might have sounded played on Martins instead of Stellas!) or maybe not?

----------

Timbofood

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## sgrexa

I forgot to touch on the "investment" part of this discussion. IMO, and I very well may be proven wrong, you are better off putting that money in a simple index fund. It has been shown time and time again that when factoring in things like inflation and other variables, instruments are not your best option. I don't see the next generation having the kind of disposable income necessary to keep up with the kind of appreciation we have seen over the last 20 years or so. That said, I think it is important to factor in future value if you are spending large amounts of money on an instrument. At this point, if I can at least come close to breaking even after getting to play and enjoy a fine mandolin over a number of years I would consider myself lucky indeed. 

Sean

----------

DataNick, 

stevedenver, 

Timbofood

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## trevor

You mean those early 'The Loars' aren't going to shoot up in value, I'm shocked...

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Timbofood

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## stevedenver

> ..................This was just a mandolin that had a great name on it. I have seen mandolins from lesser well known makers that were 10 times better in the finish department and sounded great but claimed less than half the price. I understand that you get what you pay for when it comes to musical instruments, particularly acoustic instruments, but seriously, but there is some level of name brand snobbishness going on here if people are going to pay $19,000 for a mandolin that is just not worth it. Seriously, average sound, mediocre finish, insane price. I guess it is the same with Stradivarius violins.


simplistic as my response may seem, 
1 as garrity said, a lot is about your appreciation and education regarding the instrument itself-aesthetics and sound and function.  When you get dialed in, some things jump out a lot more.  

2 folks are motivated by different values. The private player who is in love with the instrument and no one else knows that person owns it, or, the 'jewelry rattler' (see the Les Paul forum for example) who wants everyone to know about new toys and collections thereof, to boost rank in the 'pecking order'-often of forums or local groups, etc.

3 I am a huge believer in the fact that some folks can afford a 25K instrument with no 'distress', others forego huge needs for one.  It boils down to your perceptions, and your financial wherewithal, and your decision as to value and parting with your money. 
4 Tiny increments of 'improved quality' often come at geometric expense.



Snobbishness-well I dont know.  I admit, as a lover of musical instruments and music, I have an interest in what others have and play, and right or wrong, every brand carries with it certain implications and assumptions, right or wrong, as well as surprises.

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## Jim Garber

I am not sure which upper-echelon builder the OP sampled. I have played at least one of most of the 5-figure modern builders and I can't recall any that had poor workmanship or sloppy craftsmanship. I have played ones that did not appeal to me for various reasons: tone, playability, comfort, but not cosmetics. In fact that is my arguable beef with the mandolins that crop up on the Cafe. Sometimes there are builders who are excellent photographers where everyone comments on the beauty of these works and yet when I actually see it in person it is lacking in musicality. Not always, of course, but there have been times.

----------

stevedenver

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## bart mcneil

High end mandos are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them. And that person is the only person who counts at that moment. What you or I think is of no consequence at all, because neither you nor I will ever be buying that price instrument. If no person is willing to pay that price the price will simply drop until someone does buy it... and that establishes the value of an instrument. Nothing else.

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Timbofood

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## sunburst

Looks like I finally read this thread, and it looks like I'm letting myself be dragged into it... sigh...
My opinions on value in musical instruments have been expressed here several times before, so I won't be doing that here. I'm just here to note a few things that have come up in this discussion.

A Mercedes Benz has thousands of components. Most are designed and made from engineered materials. There's a lot of potential for variability there. One metal or alloy might be incrementally better than another, but cost many times more. Perhaps the higher priced model uses the titanium one and the lower priced model uses the aluminum alloy one. Perhaps the higher priced model uses the intricately machined forged component and the lower priced model uses the cast version of the part. In short, there are _lots_ of designed and built parts in a Mercedes, and the choices of which ones to use can and do affect quality, but they may affect price even more.
Now, the reason I bring that up: The comparison was made earlier between high end mandolins and high end cars.
A mandolin has (probably, I didn't bother to count them) less than 100 components even if you count all the tuner gears and screws. The main components are _pieces of wood_, not designed, built, engineered materials, but wood as it comes from the tree. Any builder has access to the best wood available, and the price of that wood is a relatively small portion of the builders cost to make a mandolin. So, the analogy of high end cars to high end mandolins is not a good one. It is entirely possible for a $2000 mandolin and a $20000 mandolin to have wooden components cut from the same logs. In other words, there are many things that make "high end" mandolins cost what they do, but quality of materials is not one of them. As I said, any builder can have wood of top quality.

----------

DataNick, 

SincereCorgi

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## Steve Sorensen

The one aspect of the value of quality instruments which never seems to make it into these discussions is the all-encompassing need to make music for the individuals crazy enough to be professional players.

The thing that amazes me is that THEY NEVER STOP playing.  In the bluegrass world, players "woodshed" songs and licks for countless hours, pick on the porch, jam backstage, then play on stage, then stay up all night jamming, then drag themselves out to a plane or bus, then jam on the bus.  They talk about instruments and music when the aren't playing, and obsessively listen to new music when they can't be picking.

The "10,000 hour" rule is a joke for the typical musician.  Real players are so obsessed with making music that 10,000 hours was blown past when they were about 8.  10,000 hour increments zip by every 2 to 3 years for obsessive players.  

And what I see, is that this obsession means that they will try/play every instrument that passes their way . . . but that the few extraordinary instruments which can really "talk for them" are extremely rare.  

Even fewer instruments help them tap into the well-spring of music which they must get out into the world but is hidden deep inside.

So, as interested amateur players, most of us have no idea how to truly value the expressive power and importance of really great instruments.

When you see Reischman playing his Loar for decades, Stiernberg crouched over his Nugget, Ronnie McCoury back to his Gilchrist . . . it is because those individual instruments are up to the task of speaking for, exciting and engaging players of their caliber for weeks and months and years of non-stop playing.

There is a very finite number of mandolins which meet this standard, and therefore the market does what the market will do.

As a builder, my only and ultimate goal is there -- to make _PLAYERS' INSTRUMENTS_ -- with the expressive depth, complexity, range and comfort to stand up to the task of keeping up with that obsessive drive.

Steve

----------

2Sharp, 

Atlanta Mando Mike, 

Caleb, 

DataNick, 

f5joe, 

Loretta Callahan, 

Misty Stanley-Jones, 

Nick Gellie, 

robert.najlis, 

sgarrity, 

sgrexa, 

Timothy S

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Well said Steve!!

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## JeffD

> That said, I think it is important to factor in future value if you are spending large amounts of money on an instrument.


Nah.

The future value only matters if you are planning to sell. 

Planning to sell impacts many things, what mandolin you buy and how it is outfitted, how you take care of the mandolin, what custom modifications you contemplate, how hard you play it or baby it, what kind of case you buy.

I decided I am not a collector or investor or seller. I am a player. I have a decent respect for tools and for quality that I don't abuse the things I own. But I am not going to modify or sacrifice any of the fun I am having now for some future value to someone I am not going to sell it to.

----------

Bill Baldridge, 

stevedenver

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## Jim Garber

> Wood is one of the most important things that determines an instruments sound, along with construction of course. Though you can have the best construction in the world but if the wood is dead the instrument will be a dud.


On the other hand... you can have the best wood in the universe but if the builder does not have the skill to make it work to the best of his/her ability it is useless. Also, I think many of us know that there are some seriously attractive woods (super flamed for maple or bearclaw for spruce) that do not necessarily contribute any more to tone than some plain looking wood that has the right tone.

As Mr. Hamlett noted any luthier can purchase the best wood, but it take an expert to know how to choose it and use it to build the best instrument. I believe that the top echelon builders can do that (at least the ones I have played) and, in addition, they are enough in demand to command the high prices and find buyers to pay those prices.

----------


## OldGus

> I understand that you get what you pay for...


Ah, So often not the case, so why do people keep saying this. Sometimes I get a great deal that exceeds what I have given in exchange. Sometimes I pay a large amount for something that is disappointing and hopefully I get to take it back. And sometimes, yes, I get just the value I have given in return. But how can you say this when you know prices are subjective. Some are worth it, some are outlandish in price so it pays to do your own research and ask questions. Also opinions on music are highly subjective.

----------

Atlanta Mando Mike, 

Petrus

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## sunburst

> On the other hand... you can have the best wood in the universe but if the builder does not have the skill to make it work to the best of his/her ability it is useless. Also, I think many of us know that there are some seriously attractive woods (super flamed for maple or bearclaw for spruce) that do not necessarily contribute any more to tone than some plain looking wood that has the right tone.
> 
> As Mr. Hamlett noted any luthier can purchase the best wood, but it take an expert to know how to choose it and use it to build the best instrument. I believe that the top echelon builders can do that (at least the ones I have played) and, in addition, they are enough in demand to command the high prices and find buyers to pay those prices.


Furthermore, the best builders can use wood that most hobby builders will reject immediately, and build you a world class instrument from it. Will it sell for 5 figures? Depends on the name of the builder.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

And there you have it John.

http://www.laguitarsales.com/pages/3...hop_Pallet.htm

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## sunburst

I saw and played the pallet guitar when it was new. It was one of a series of alternative-wood guitars Taylor made to demonstrate the viability of alternative woods. Still, the stubborn market hasn't moved much.

----------


## Markus

> The "10,000 hour" rule is a joke for the typical musician.  Real players are so obsessed with making music that 10,000 hours was blown past when they were about 8.  10,000 hour increments zip by every 2 to 3 years for obsessive players.


You do realize that 10,000 hours in two years is 13.7 hours every day without a day off, right?

Most kids who are 8 are in school for 9 months of the year, and like anyone with even a part-time job, clearing 10k hours of _devoted practice_ in 2 or 3 years is a joke as it would preclude sleep [I assume tuning is also not counted]. 

Having averaged about 4-5 hours a day of playing for a few years, this talk about how quickly one hits 10,000 hours hits a sore spot as the over-estimation of devoted practice time is so far off.

Frankly, it reminds me of the overstatement that I associate with the super-high end mandolins. It's not that people aren't putting in serious time [or that a selection of these mandolins truly stand above almost all others] - but the claims are so over the top and unrealistic that it puts everything said into question.

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> Having averaged about 4-5 hours a day of playing for a few years, this talk about how quickly one hits 10,000 hours hits a sore spot as the over-estimation of devoted practice time is so far off.


Your point is a good one Markus. When you do the math, it does take a while to it that 10,000 hour mark. 

However, this isn't a piano we're talking about here. You don't have to be seated at the bench devoting 100% of your attention to practice. There's an overlap factor that you have to consider. 

I can sit in my easy chair, watch the news, or listen to a talk-program on the radio, or sit there pretending to be listening to my wife... all the while I'm pickin' that infernal mandolin.

----------


## christopher.glenn

My worthless two cents.

1. I own two sub thousand dollar Averez guitars and a $2500 Martin and there isn't a picker on here wbo could pck out Martin by sound alone.

2. A weekend picker isn't going to sound any better on a $10000 instrument and someone like Monroe is still going to sound like a genius on a $300 one. Like my uncle always said, "The tools don't make the carpenter."

I do know that if I was going to spend that much on an axe I would go to a custom luthier.

----------

Astro, 

Timbofood

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## Steve Sorensen

Markus,

I've done the math and met the kids (and their parents).  No overstatement . . . but perhaps the less motivated would take 5 years . . .  :Cool: 

Steve

----------


## LongBlackVeil

> I saw and played the pallet guitar when it was new. It was one of a series of alternative-wood guitars Taylor made to demonstrate the viability of alternative woods. Still, the stubborn market hasn't moved much.


are you saying it sounded good?

----------


## Petrus

Anecdotal evidence contrary to the quality of materials argument:

1. Torres once built a guitar with a paper-mache back and sides and played it in front of several people; apparently they could not tell the difference from an ordinary guitar:




> To prove that it was the top, and not the back and sides of the guitar that gave the instrument its sound, in 1862 he built a guitar with back and sides of papier-mâché. (This guitar resides in the Museu de la Musica in Barcelona, and before the year 2000 it was restored to playable condition by the brothers Yagüe, Barcelona).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Torres_Jurado

2. We argue back and forth about a millimeter here and there, or the exact composition and thickness of varnish, while a good player will play for years with a seriously compromised instrument -- we're talking huge gaping holes and scratches all over the place (e.g.: Monroe splintered-and-reglued Gibson; Willie Nelson's "Trigger"; Glen Hansard's old Takamine) -- and I regularly am informed that I should expect a vintage instrument to have substantial damage to the finish all over the place and not let it bother me because it won't affect the sound.  :Confused: 

There's certainly a contradiction somewhere.

----------


## bayAreaDude

> My worthless two cents.
> 
> 1. I own two sub thousand dollar Averez guitars and a $2500 Martin and there isn't a picker on here wbo could pck out Martin by sound alone.
> 
> 2. A weekend picker isn't going to sound any better on a $10000 instrument and someone like Monroe is still going to sound like a genius on a $300 one. Like my uncle always said, "The tools don't make the carpenter."
> 
> I do know that if I was going to spend that much on an axe I would go to a custom luthier.


I dunno.  I can 100% tell the difference between my Collings and Martin guitars on sound alone.  I quit recording with the Martins because of the sound alone.  Not Martins in general but mine vs. my Collings.

----------

stevedenver

----------


## J.Albert

I wonder if the OP was looking at a used MM or a DMM ??

----------


## sunburst

> are you saying it sounded good?


I'm not saying that. It sounded to me like a Talor guitar, a sound I would classify as "good", but not my favorite guitar sound. To someone who likes the sound of Taylor guitars I'm sure it sounds good, and in a blind test my bet is they couldn't tell if from a mahogany or rosewood Taylor.

----------


## Rick Crenshaw

I bought a custom mandolin once.  I liked it.  Whatever 'fit and finish' issues it had are long covered by my 'mojo' from playing out week after week.  Some people see it and think, 'why would anyone pay $X,XXX for a mandolin?'.  Other people play it and think, 'dang, this is a great mandolin for $X,XXX!'

I ended up buying another from the same builder.  This one very handsome!  I have dinged it up some.  I ain't selling it so I don't mind too much.  I have played mandolins that I would like to have, but haven't dug up the scratch to get them since they cost $XX,XXX and I like mine pretty fine.

I built a mandolin once for fun.  An F5 kit.  Turns out it sounded DANGED GOOD!  but it is uglier than heck.  Anyway, after that experience, I would never begrudge the prices good builders get for their mandolins.  It ain't easy making good sounding mandolins that look good, too!

----------


## Austin Bob

It's only worth it if you like it and can afford it.

The price doesn't really matter. Whether the mando is a $200 entry model or a $200K Loar, the above statement is still true.

----------

Timbofood

----------


## fatt-dad

to the OP.

Let's categorize mandolins.

factory made, laminated wood oval- or f-hole, a- or f-model
factory made, solid-top, laminated body, oval- f-hole, a- or f-model
factory made, all solid, oval- or f-hole, a- or f-model
bench made, all solid, oval- or f-hole, a- or f-model

Now the factories vary and the builder behind the bench matter.

Cache relates to both.  Country of origin affects market price to some. Experience of the builder affects market price to most.

As SteveS said, when somebody finds an instrument from an experienced builder that they spend countless hours playing, others will want to check out that builder.  That'll affect price.

I think to really answer the question, you have to pay the tuition.  You have go to festivals and play what you can get your hands on or you have to buy and sell within your means. What I meant by my earlier post is if your means allow for a $2,000.00 mandolin, you may buy one, play it for a while and if it doesn't really motivate you sell it and buy another.  You may lose a few hundred bucks, you may gain a few hundred bucks.  If you lose, it's tuition.  Is that, "collecting?" I don't think so.  That said, there have been a few that I just couldn't part with, so I got my keepers.

Just a few thoughts.

f-d

----------

stevedenver

----------


## stevedenver

> And there you have it John.
> 
> http://www.laguitarsales.com/pages/3...hop_Pallet.htm


wow 10K, nails and all-and yes I think its very cool (although im not that fond of the inlay theme)
This gives rise to thinking about just exactly what is value?
1 great sounding guitar
2 a piece of art, imho, due to unusual vision and use of common 'trash' type woods,  nails, etc
3 limited run
4 big name
5 only kid on the block with this type of guitar-(and likely to stay so as the wood shrinks and the metal bits don't over the years.)

now if someone were simply to tell me about their wonderful home made oak and yellow or white  pine guitar, 10K would not spring to mind as an offering price.......even with cool inlay, drop dead sound and superb playability/neck.

yet .....bob taylor did so!!

as have others...bob Benedetto did something similar too I recall from his book on archtop construction. Which begs the question of what does one get, functionally, when one order the premium grade euro woods over say, just superb domestics? Hard to know with the above examples of catch-as-catch-can woods.

----------


## F-2 Dave

High end mandos worth it? Short answer, apparently yes.

----------


## Willie Poole

They got to be highend mandolins because they are worth it, it takes time to build a reputation, some make it, some don`t...I do believe there are some great mandolins being made that haven`t got their name spread around as yet but given time they will get there...
      As a youngster I thought I just had to have a "Big named" mandolin and I through the years I have bought two and since then I have played a lot more of the lesser named ones and now I do not own a "Big Name' mandolin but what I have will some day rank right up there with the "big boys"...

      Willie

----------


## Tom Sanderson

I own two. They are both worth it to me for reasons that others may not agree with. I say buy what you want if you can afford it and don't worry about what others think, just play and enjoy.

----------

almeriastrings, 

Bill Baldridge, 

f5joe, 

stevedenver, 

Zissou Intern

----------


## christopher.glenn

The question for me is always, "How much am I being gouged for the name on the headstock?"  

A guitar example. The lower end gibson line, around $1,000, does not sound any better than the Epiphone equivalents at nearly half the price. You don't start getting the vaunted "Gibson Superiority" until you get into the Pro-line, but for the same few thousand dollars and a little leg work you can track down a near mint vintage and have an even better instrument. I owned a late sixties 330TL (someone stole it) and I have played Gibson's current Pro line hollows and compared to the one I had, they sounded like something that rhymes with spit. Does Gibson still make a decent $4000 axe? Sure. Do they make the best $4000 axe you can get for your money? Nope. Same thing with Martins now-a-days. The cheap ones they sell in GC are junk and the good ones are over priced.

If I was going to spend $5000 plus on a flat top I would call up Ken Franklin.

At the end of the day only one thing matters at the end of the day, the actual sound coming out of the box, not some theoretical sound expected by brand reputation.

Like a lot of guys here have said, it is all relative. If I had the money I would buy a $15000 guitar or mandolin. What I wouldn't buy though is a $5000 guitar or mandolin with a $10000 "brand tax".

----------


## JeffD

I don't get this brand tax idea. If a mandolins sound the way you want, and you can't seem to find that sound at a significantly lower price, and that sound is worth that price to you, you buy it. If not, not. I think most people work this way. The brand thing only comes in as a short cut, because with some brands and models you can have a reasonable expectation of a great sound, and so its a great place to start.

I don't think many people pay extra for a brand without seeing if it sounds better or not, or hold on to a particular model if it doesn't sound as good as they want. I really don't.

I think everyone above a beginner can discern a quality sound, and will sound better on a better instrument. You won't sound like Grisman, you will sound like yourself with better tone, and perhaps a somewhat less steep growth curve than otherwise.

I will never, ever, be gouged for the name on the headstock. If the mandolin doesn't sound great I don't buy it. And if it sounds great I wasn't gouged.

----------


## Astro

Good points. And that begs a few questions that would be insightful to know.

1. On average, what % of 5k and up mandos are purchased without playing first (over the net or through mail) ?
(or better yet, what is that % for each of x brands)

2. On average, what % of 5k and up mandos are purchased by those with 5 years or more mando playing behind them ?
(or better yet, what is he average number of years an x-brand purchaser has been playing mando)

3. On average, what % of 5k and up mandos are kept by the original purchaser for 10 years or more ? 
(or average number of years kept for each of x brands)

4. On average, how many mandos has a builder built before he routinely gets 5k or more for a mando.

Although impossible to know, those answers may infer a lot about what's going on in buying various high end mando's.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Good points. And that begs a few questions that would be insightful to know.
> 
> 1. On average, what % of 5k and up mandos are purchased without playing first (over the net or through mail) ?
> (or better yet, what is that % for each of x brands)
> 
> 2. On average, what % of 5k and up mandos are purchased by those with 5 years or more mando playing behind them ?
> (or better yet, what is he average number of years an x-brand purchaser has been playing mando)
> 
> 3. On average, what % of 5k and up mandos are kept by the original purchaser for 10 years or more ? 
> ...


Now I've got a question (or two). That "5K and up" price point you're asking about, is that the price of a new mandolin? 
Is 5K the the crossover point between low-end and high-end mandolins? 

The price of a new Weber Fern, from what I can discern from some of the advertisers on this forum,  is somewhere just shy of 7K to almost 8k. That figure doesn't seem to be just MSRP, but the actual retail price. 
I didn't pay that much for my used Fern of course, but it looks like if I wanted a brand new one, I'd be laying out some serious cash. 

As the owner of a Weber Fern, am I one of these extravagant rich dudes we're discussing here? Does that put me in the same catagory as the Gil, Dude and MM owners? 
I'm gonna have to re-think my position of this whole issue. :Disbelief:

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## sgarrity

$5k is barely scratching the surface of quality new F5 mandolins.  To me a $5k F5 is not a high end mandolin, no offense intended.  $8-10k is pretty much in the middle of the pack for a quality new F5.  $15-20K+ is the high end market to me.

----------

DataNick, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

Mike Bunting, 

Misty Stanley-Jones, 

stevedenver, 

Tom Sanderson

----------


## Zissou Intern

I spent 5 years working part time at a small high-end acoustic shop. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to play everything from the average low-end Kentucky to numerous Nuggets, Webers, Gibsons, Collings, a few Old Waves, Krishots, and a couple Monte's, Gil's and Gibson Loars. 

One day, one of the demigod pros we discuss often on the forum pulled a run of the mill Kentucky KM675 off the wall and tore it up for a good 15 minutes. He sounded exactly like he normally does on his mandolin - AMAZING! When he finished playing it, he handed it back to me and said, "That mandolin will do just fine." He was wrong and right. In his hands it sounded way better than "just fine". In my hack hands it sounded "just fine", about the same as a Loar or Gil or Monte.

I developed a good ear for a quality instrument, but that moment was a perfect example that a good portion of an instrument's tone really comes from the player.

----------

Astro, 

DataNick, 

Loretta Callahan, 

Timbofood

----------


## Astro

I wasnt sure where to start...

3k, 5k, 10k, 15k, 20k,--pick a point--It would be interesting to know those stats at each price point too.

The diminishing returns thing kicks in pretty early for me. I'm a fairly pragmatic guy. Truth be told for me there is no mandolin that justifies 20k...or 15k...or probably even 10k. I have no problem with those who think it does. Just not to me. I could afford a new luxury car and many of my friends who I respect and love have them. I think it silly. Whatever extra value they find in them is waisted on me.

I think its possible to find 2 great mandolins that the only significant difference between them is that one costs 10k more than the other due to marketing, exposure, brand tax--whatever. 

On the other hand, if any object adds pleasure or enrichment to your life that reasonably justifies its price to you, go for it and be guilt free--no other factors need be weighed. 

I love the tone of the Gilchrists I've heard and I'm happy a luthier can make good money making them. That makes a lot more sense to me than a CEO getting 40 million dollar bonuses for what they did that year. But to me an instrument is a tool and a piece of folk art. Its wood and glue and a critical skill set. True a luthiers talents in putting them together is the essence of its value, but every luthier I've met so far has turned out to be human. No mystical powers or secret formulas.

So we know what instruments bring in the marketplace. Thats easy to surmise. But we search for where the "high ends" worth is to us.

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## Misty Stanley-Jones

I don't understand why you care what other people spend their money on?

----------

almeriastrings, 

Bill Baldridge, 

Mike Bunting, 

Tom Sanderson

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## christopher.glenn

> I don't think many people pay extra for a brand without seeing if it sounds better or not, or hold on to a particular model if it doesn't sound as good as they want. I really don't.


You would hope this would be true but musicians are people too and are prone to the same psychological mechanisms as the rest of humanty.

They did an experiment once where they took some bottles of high end wine and put them in the bottles of much lower priced (but still drinkable) wines. The took the previous contenst of the lower end bottles and put them in the high end bottles. They then had a wine tasting with some wine "experts". Now I want you to take a wild guess as to which they reviewed favorably. If you guessed the high end bottles with the cheep contents than have a drink on me.

Branding has a huge impact on perception of quality and there have been many many Ad-men who have built $500,000 houses based on this fact.

----------

sgrexa

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## trevor

Agreed, brand loyalty and brand recognition are big factors. I had a guy in this morning who only wanted to look at guitars by one luthier, he has decided that this guy is the best and he won't even try anything else.

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## Zissou Intern

I agree with what Tom Sanderson said above: 
_I say buy what you want if you can afford it and don't worry about what others think, just play and enjoy._
And that goes for those of us who play the ultra low end, or sub $2K mandolins.

----------

Bill Baldridge, 

Tom Sanderson

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## Jeff Hildreth

As with many other tangible items,  over a 50 year period, I have seen mandolins become a status symbol and a point of "brag".
That is not to say that they are not still musical instruments, or as some would say "tools" and some of those musical instruments and tools rise to the height of artistry, a cut above production or craft.

When folks first became aware that they were "Loars", you might pay $1500 at a time when a new Gibson might be close. What I see is disproportionate valuation, again... for status.

We have all heard or experienced instruments of lesser value that can rival the more expensive units... and the pro players who can make a modest instrument sing.  It is we the players, buyers, that elevate the desirability and price of these favored instruments. We are responsible for the "value" condition.  
And as many know, raise your price and increase desirability.. without respect to quality.

Buy what you can afford,  and, have fun.

I have owned about 50 mandolins including Snakeheads and two original Givens as well as a couple custom made German classicals.
None of those was my favorite, my favorite being a Washburn M-7s.. that was formerly owned by Jethro Burns. I paid a modest price for it though I can afford to buy any instrument currently being made.

I personally do not think there is a direct correlation of price to quality, nor is there any defined dollar amount to dictate, low end, middle, or high end. That is a fabrication and often a function of marketing.

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## MikeEdgerton

If you want to see what some disposable income can do just stop at most bluegrass jams. You will almost always find some folks that have managed to accumulate some cash in their lifetimes and buy some nice instruments (more power to them). Many of them can't play very well but they are enjoying themselves. When they pass on those high end instruments go on the used market and some talented younger player that couldn't afford to buy one new gets a chance at a bargain.

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## jimbob

One of the early replies to this post said that this topic has been posted many times and beat to death....not exactly a dead horse after 4 pages of exchanges !  Don't get me wrong....I am not being critical, but some topics always generate discussion !
There are many good points and good discussion here....bottom line is simple....buy what you like and be the most educated consumer you can to get the best value. But, the value is always is the eye of the buyer....

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## JeffD

> that a good portion of an instrument's tone really comes from the player.


While there is truth to that, it is a distraction and besides the point. What Dave Grisman or Mike Marshall can do on an economy mandolin is irrelevant. What difference could it make to my decision, what Dave Grisman could do on my mandolin or the ones I might be choosing from.

Yes we could all sound much better if we practiced more and worked harder. Of course. And buying a better mandolin won't take the place of hard work. Nobody thinks they can buy talent from a luthier. 

OTOH, does anyone really think that if you get good enough you will no longer need a high end mandolin? Does anyone really think that at some level ability the better mandolin makes no difference? That if you are good enough any old mandolin will do? 

I sound better on a better mandolin. That is all that matters to me. On a better mandolin my tone and volume will sound better, my playing may come a bit easier, and I may even be motivated to practice more. What Mike Marshall might could do is of no consequence.

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## JeffD

And if the amount better isn't justified by the amount costlier, I don't buy it. Its not rocket science.

----------


## Amanda Gregg

Does it make my life worse that there are mandolins I want that cost more than I can afford?  Yes.  Do I believe that such a mandolin, not accessible to me (right now), could be worth every penny?  Yes.

----------

DataNick, 

MikeEdgerton, 

sgrexa

----------


## Timbofood

I sold my Stiver because I didn't like it.
Kept the Alvarez because I do.
Will buy something else when I can afford it and find one that I "must have!"

----------

MikeEdgerton

----------


## JeffD

> Does it make my life worse that there are mandolins I want that cost more than I can afford?  Yes. .


Its a real sweet kind of worse, in my experience. Wanting is half the fun. (Even if the other half never happens.)

----------

Amanda Gregg, 

Astro

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## sgrexa

> OTOH, does anyone really think that if you get good enough you will no longer need a high end mandolin? Does anyone really think that at some level ability the better mandolin makes no difference? That if you are good enough any old mandolin will do?


I have given this some thought, and the answer to me is yes, though not "any old mandolin" would do. It would have to play and sound good, and be well built but not necessarily ultra expensive. I think you see a lot of pro guitar and mandolin players that regularly tour use "serviceable" instruments on stage, many opting to leave the good stuff safe at home. Some really do not seem to care about the good stuff at all and opt to play middle of the road instruments all the time. One of my favorite guitar players is Chet Atkin's longtime sidekick and C.G.P. himself, Paul Yandell (RIP). I found the F.A.Q. on his website to be a fascinating read and you can clearly see the humility that both he and of course Chet possessed.  I strongly urge you to take a few minutes and read through this: 

http://www.studio9kc.co.uk/paul/paul..._questions.pdf

These two didn't need high end gear to sound great, they just needed gear that worked efficiently and got the job done. I think they both realized long ago that 99% of the audience doesn't really care about any of that stuff.  Country gentlemen indeed.  

Sean 

PS- Mark Knopfler has a slightly different approach  :Wink: , but is still great!

----------

DataNick

----------


## FLATROCK HILL

> $5k is barely scratching the surface of quality new F5 mandolins.  To me a $5k F5 is not a high end mandolin, no offense intended.  $8-10k is pretty much in the middle of the pack for a quality new F5.  $15-20K+ is the high end market to me.


No offense taken. 
I'm sure I'm not qualified to draw any lines between low, middle or high-end. 
I would agree though, that your "$15-20K+" figure is probably a reasonable range for high-end (emphasis on the '+'). 
I was just curious about the 5K price-point mentioned in Astro's post as it relates to the subject of this thread...High end Mandolins. 

Oh well. For one brief, shining moment....

----------


## Nick Gellie

I remember reading a thread where it was estimated that 250 hours was required to make a top end F5. That is equivalent to $60/h.  A luthier has to make a living making mandolins.  It seems as if Steve Gilchrist is one who is making a decent living from luthiery.  I will leave it up to your consciences what  Chinese workers are being paid to make a $1000 F5 mandolin.

----------


## Willie Poole

Did I become a better baseball player with a high priced glove?  YES...  Did I become a better golfer with high priced clubs?  YES... Did I become a better mandolin player with a high priced mandolin?  NO....I played four different mandolins on a recording and not one person could tell I had changed from one to another, they ranged from $700 to $5,000 instruments....Same pick, same brand of strings and they all sounded pretty much the same when I played them....

   JUST  SAYING...

----------

Nick Gellie, 

sgrexa

----------


## Mandobar

> $5k is barely scratching the surface of quality new F5 mandolins.  To me a $5k F5 is not a high end mandolin, no offense intended.  $8-10k is pretty much in the middle of the pack for a quality new F5.  $15-20K+ is the high end market to me.


I would say, in general, that would be true, but there are examples that go either way (meaning those $5k+ that leave one feeling cheated, and those under $5k that are truly amazing).  It ALL depends on the builder, and on what you are looking for as far as tone, etc.  The depreciation in value depends on ECONOMICS right now and will probably be for a while.  Lots of people selling off collections as they enter retirement.  Prices have come down on used mandos and guitars quite a bit.

----------

sgrexa

----------


## Mandobar

> I remember reading a thread where it was estimated that 250 hours was required to make a top end F5. That is equivalent to $60/h.  A luthier has to make a living making mandolins.  It seems as if Steve Gilchrist is one who is making a decent living from luthiery.  I will leave it up to your consciences what  Chinese workers are being paid to make a $1000 F5 mandolin.


Actually if you follow what's going on in China they have been having wildcat strikes with workers demanding better wages, health care, etc.  This had been going on for a few years, so labor costs in China have gone up and the price of goods from this area has increased.  Just look at Kentucky's price increases.

----------


## Jim Garber

One of my interests is to find instruments that meets my requirements for excellence in the lower price range. I have come across a few guitars in stores. There was one $89 Chinese-made guitar I had wish I bought. I did buy a small-bodied Yamaha that was only made for a year or so and at a reasonable price. An excellent guitar for the money for sure.

I generally look for vintage instruments in the same way but have yet to find that cheapo off-brand that meets my mandolin needs. OTOH I do appreciate the upper end makers but do look in all ranges for the less-expensive tone masters.

I also find that this thread seems to bring out some hot discussions here. I am not sure why anyone resents that a luthier charges large amounts of cash for an instrument. Or is that resentment for someone who actually pays those prices or can?

----------


## JeffD

> I strongly urge you to take a few minutes and read through this: 
> 
> http://www.studio9kc.co.uk/paul/paul..._questions.pdf
> 
>  These two didn't need high end gear to sound great, they just needed gear that worked efficiently and got the job done. I think they both realized long ago that 99% of the audience doesn't really care about any of that stuff. Country gentlemen indeed.



I think I have seen some of that before. Very interesting read. I have been a Chet Atkins fanboy. 

Most of the top players have very good instruments. Perhaps not the top end, and perhaps there are a few who play more economy models, but in general top players have good to very good instruments. There are some who really don't care. But that's not the rule.

I agree that 99% of the audience doesn't really care about the equipment. But performers don't get the equipment for the audience. They get it in order to create the kind of performance they want to craft and that the audience expects.

Its not the equipment, its the music. The professionals probably don't get as emotional as we do - and don't go all dewy eyed as I do hearing a great mandolin in the hands of a great player, or considering an opportunity to play a '23 F5. Probably more like tools of the trade. 

That said, they do get good tools.

----------


## fatt-dad

I'd rather have $15,000.00 tied up in a couple of guitars and a quartet of mandolin voices.  Oh wait, that's what I've done!

f-d

----------


## JeffD

> I also find that this thread seems to bring out some hot discussions here. I am not sure why anyone resents that a luthier charges large amounts of cash for an instrument. Or is that resentment for someone who actually pays those prices or can?


A little of that comes out, but sometimes there is a culture clash too. Guitar culture seems to have more folks who are of the more with less philosophy. My guitar has to look and feel as rough and beat up and down and out as the blues I play on it. To be authentic. Some folks can't get past the cognitive dissonance of playing a po' boy blues on a $4000.00 guitar.

Not everyone, but more, I think, than in the mandolin culture.

Look, when it comes down to it, I don't really need a mandolin at all. Playing a mandolin is itself an indulgence. All we really need in life is food, shelter, community, and some decent cowboy boots. So right from the beginning I have more and better mandolins than I need, or will ever need, especially considering how and where and what I play. 

I just like nice things. Its worth it.

----------

Astro, 

Bill Baldridge, 

DataNick, 

Jim Garber

----------


## Nick Gellie

Fine tuning a mandolin with F5 specs does not leave much room to vary the tone and projection.  These are based on slight variations to the graduations of the backboard and soundboard.  I have researched this as part of making an Arches F5 kit. Choice of woods do of course come into it. The differences are very subtle and most people cannot tell the difference in tone between a top end and a medium end mandolin.

I have an Arches FT-O that has a completely different tonality to an A-5 or F-5.  It is a great instrument and I did n't pay $15k for it. Based on my experience a 15k F-5 mandolin would not be worth it.

----------


## trevor

How many $15k mandolins have you played? 

To make a valid comparison IMHO it is necessary to play a selection of mandolins in the same place at the same time. I think some peoples opinions (emphasise some) are based on playing relatively few instruments in different places at different times.

----------

DataNick, 

Mike Bunting, 

MikeEdgerton, 

sgarrity, 

Tom Sanderson

----------


## MikeEdgerton

Just a warning, let's not make this about world politics. Carry on.

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## trevor

"Fine tuning a mandolin with F5 specs does not leave much room to vary the tone and projection." I think a lot of luthiers would disagree with that, I certainly would, different bracing, different top and back graduations and thickness's...  and a whole lot more.

"The differences are very subtle and most people cannot tell the difference in tone between a top end and a medium end mandolin" I am very happy for anyone who can visit to lay out half a dozen mandolins, all in the mid range or all high end or a mixture, and folks can hear the difference for them selves. The variations are very clear.

----------


## RichM

If you can't hear the difference between an inexpensive instrument and an expensive one, save your money and be happy with your life.

For those who _can_ hear the difference, and have the means, let them play what they want. There, problem solved.

----------

DataNick, 

Jim Garber, 

Mike Bunting, 

Nick Gellie, 

nickster60, 

sgarrity

----------


## Jeff Mando

> One of my favorite guitar players is Chet Atkin's longtime sidekick and C.G.P. himself, Paul Yandell (RIP). I found the F.A.Q. on his website to be a fascinating read and you can clearly see the humility that both he and of course Chet possessed.  I strongly urge you to take a few minutes and read through this: 
> 
> http://www.studio9kc.co.uk/paul/paul..._questions.pdf
> 
> These two didn't need high end gear to sound great, they just needed gear that worked efficiently and got the job done. I think they both realized long ago that 99% of the audience doesn't really care about any of that stuff.  Country gentlemen indeed.



Big fan of Chet and Paul, also.  Keep in mind from the mid-50's on Chet got his guitars FREE from Gretsch and later from Gibson, basically for the rest of his life.  BEFORE THAT, you may recall he played a D'Angelico archtop that he electrified with pickups he purchased from Paul Bigsby and Ray Butts, and of course he added a vibrola, as well!  He used that guitar to back artists such as Hank Sr. on the Grand Ole Opry.  So, guitarwise, Chet wasn't slumming it too badly!!!

----------

sgrexa

----------


## nickster60

I don't think it is necessary to have a great mandolin to be a great player but it certainly doesn't hurt. Is a high end mandolin worth it? Well that is up to the buyer, its your money spend it how you please. One thing you cant escape is, as you mature as a musician your ear develops and you hear thing you didn't early on. Better instruments offer incremental improvements and some people will never hear the difference. Then there are the unfortunate souls who are just cheap,frugal,stingy or just plain skin flints. And unfortunately there is no cure for that.

----------


## Tom Sanderson

> Did I become a better baseball player with a high priced glove?  YES...  Did I become a better golfer with high priced clubs?  YES... Did I become a better mandolin player with a high priced mandolin?  NO....I played four different mandolins on a recording and not one person could tell I had changed from one to another, they ranged from $700 to $5,000 instruments....Same pick, same brand of strings and they all sounded pretty much the same when I played them....
> 
>    JUST  SAYING...


I did become a better mandolin player when I got my first Nugget because it was so much nicer to play that I couldn't put it down.

----------

DataNick, 

nickster60, 

sgarrity, 

sgrexa

----------


## trevor

Agreed, I often say to customers that a better instrument won't make them play better but if they are excited about it and can't put it down then playing more will make them better. If looking at great instruments made you play better I would be playing better than all the greats out there.

----------


## nickster60

There are worse things you could look at all day.

----------


## Mike Bunting

> you mature as a musician your ear develops and you hear thing you didn't early on. .


That is a very important point! I've experienced that in my own development, I can hear far more nuances in tone now than I ever could.

----------


## mandroid

Then theres the downslope of the bell curve  when age starts taking out the higher frequency hearing..

then your same  mandolin starts sounding different, to you..

----------

Timbofood

----------


## nickster60

If you spend anytime messing about with motorbikes it happens much sooner. My wife says my hearing is fading, it can be an advantage at times.

----------


## LongBlackVeil

> I remember reading a thread where it was estimated that 250 hours was required to make a top end F5. That is equivalent to $60/h.  A luthier has to make a living making mandolins.  It seems as if Steve Gilchrist is one who is making a decent living from luthiery.  I will leave it up to your consciences what  Chinese workers are being paid to make a $1000 F5 mandolin.


You can't use that to determine how much they make though because they don't work by themselves and build more than one at a time, so you can't figure the rate the same way

And I can pretty much guarantee you they don't take 250 hours to build a PAC rim instrument in a factory

----------


## Jeff Mando

> You can't use that to determine how much they make though because they don't work by themselves and build more than one at a time, so you can't figure the rate the same way
> 
> And I can pretty much guarantee you they don't take 250 hours to build a PAC rim instrument in a factory


So, considering material cost, shipping, wholesale middle men, customs duties, etc., after expenses, I'd say they probably make about 3 cents an hour.  I think prisoners in the USA make more than that.

----------


## MikeEdgerton

And we're done. Thanks.

----------

abuteague, 

bigskygirl, 

Bill Baldridge, 

Eric C., 

farmerjones, 

George R. Lane, 

JEStanek, 

Jim Garber, 

sblock, 

Timbofood

----------

