# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  How did the "curl" on the mandolin body evolve?

## poul hansen

Why do so many mandolins have that silly looking and useless curl on the body?

I find it ugly and it must make a mandolin a lot more expensive, to make it.

It would be much more practical, to make some extrusion that makes it easier to sit with the mandolin, so it doesn't slide down your thigh f.x.

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James Vwaal

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## pit lenz

Oh, youre ralking about the thousand-dollar-strapholder?

http://www.vintagemandolin.com/mandohistory.html
Here you will find a brief history about it.
The scroll is said to make a (aesthetic) difference between the A (artist) and the F (florentine) models around 1900, when Gibson came up with it.
Be prepared to have opened a can of worms if your question about the scroll' history will eventually evolve into a discussion about its functionality ... :Popcorn: 

I have to say that at first I didnt dig the scroll (especially with the headstock) but always appreciated the projecting points at the bottom to help the instrument stay in position. Now I got used to it and even learned to like the look.

Even though most builders will pretty much stick close to the "A" and "F" models, there are some interesting other shapes out there: Most common might be the "two-point" shape (look for Don Steirnbergs two-point "Nugget") and make sure to check out Sorensen or Breedlove mandolins for some interesting ideas.

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DavidKOS, 

Pittsburgh Bill, 

poul hansen, 

soliver

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## Murphy Slaw

High humidity....

 :Smile:

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## pheffernan

> Why do so many mandolins have that silly looking and useless curl on the body?


The modern mandolin as developed by Orville Gibson borrowed heavily from the violin tradition at the end of the Victorian Period in which ornamentation was an important aesthetic consideration. It was later popularized by Bill Monroe and widely associated with bluegrass by generations of players. 




> I find it ugly and it must make a mandolin a lot more expensive, to make it.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the asymmetry of an F5 was an acquired taste for me. Either way, ornament takes time to produce which does generally increase its cost. 




> It would be much more practical, to make some extrusion that makes it easier to sit with the mandolin, so it doesn't slide down your thigh f.x.


The F-style you are disparaging has such an extrusion, two in fact: they’re called points. Although one can occasionally be found on the rare A-style as well.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/156744#156744

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poul hansen

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## MikeEdgerton

While you're waiting for the definitive answer that is sure to surface take a look through these past discussions of the subject. Some are quite educational, well perhaps a better description would be entertaining.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...nd-f-headstock

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-of-the-scroll

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...e-first-scroll

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DougC, 

poul hansen, 

Timbofood

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## T.D.Nydn

I think the F model design came about because of the time period in which it was developed..it was the late Victorian era,,where people like Gibson and Fairbanks were heavily influenced by the style back then,in which everything had ornate scrolls,leaves and vines all over them..

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j. condino, 

poul hansen, 

Timbofood

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## poul hansen

So again old Gibsons bad taste in design is at fault, just like the yellowed "white" plastic they chose to their Les Paul guitars in the 50'es, that has been used on most LP guitars since.  :Laughing: 

Luckily there are exceptions to those designs for me to buy.

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## Russ Donahue

:Popcorn:

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j. condino

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## pheffernan

> So again old Gibsons bad taste in design is at fault


Yes, old Gibson’s bad taste in design is at fault for creating some of the most iconic mandolins, banjos, and guitars (acoustic and electric) over the last 120 years. Gibson has had (and continues to have) its issues (and critics), but bad taste in design is rarely cited as one of them.

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BG_Dana, 

Drew Egerton, 

John Soper, 

Pittsburgh Bill, 

Timbofood, 

William Smith

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## bgpete

Google "tamburitza orchestra" and look at the older images of Balkan musicians. (Many of these bands would have been around when Orville G. was young.)
Some of the scrolls on those Balkan instruments look kinda familiar, don't they...?

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DavidKOS, 

Timbofood

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## Pittsburgh Bill

> Why do so many mandolins have that silly looking and useless curl on the body?
> 
> I find it ugly and it must make a mandolin a lot more expensive, to make it.
> 
> .


While I fall into your camp of thinking about the "curl", keep in mind that it is obvious that not everyone feels the same way. I am glad choices exist and especially glad that the style I prefer is the least expensive.
I once owned F styles (as I think most newbies prefer) but quickly found their looks non appealing. 
In Europe, especially the UK, Ireland, e.t.c. builders seem to prefer a rounder A style that is less pear shaped (I once asked builders to explain if a tonal difference exists for this round style). Personally, I do not care for the  rounder A style look. But, again, obviously some people do. 
I think the world of mandolins would be less exciting without the variety of choices we face when purchasing a new instrument. 
And most of all, be glad that the style you prefer is the least labor intense to build and thusly the least expensive.

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## Drew Egerton

I like F style mandolins, but I don't go around talking trash about how "Silly" of a "bad taste" in design the A style is, because for some people it is exactly what they want. It's OK to have a personal preference but you don't have to trash the other options.

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Nbayrfr, 

pheffernan, 

Pittsburgh Bill

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## allenhopkins

> ...The scroll is said to make a (aesthetic) difference between the A (artist) and the F (florentine) models around 1900, when Gibson came up with it...


Quote above continues a misunderstanding of Gibson's model designations, that "A" and "F" were initials for words like "Artist" and "Florentine."  Gibson assigned letters to different model series, "L" to guitars, "H" to mandolas, "K" to mandocelli, "J" to mando-basses, "U" to harp-guitars.  With regard to their banjo lines, the letters did stand for descriptions: "RB" for "regular [or 5-string] banjo," "TB" for tenor banjo, "MB" for mandolin-banjo, etc.

As far as we can tell, the letters were for manufacturing batching and cataloging purposes, though it would be fun to come up with possibilities: "L" = "Legendary," "H" = "Heavenly," "K" = "King-size," "J" = "Jumbo," "U" = "Unusual," maybe?

Gibson didn't make a mandolin they called "Florentine" until the 1950's, and then it was the electric *EM-150,* which was a two-point model with no scroll.  Their Florentine models from the 1920's/30's were banjos, with fingerboards decorated with Italian scenes.  Oddly, the scenes were of Venice, but Gibson didn't call the banjos "Venetian."  (Oh well, you know Gibson...)

Usage has made the "Florentine" meaning for "F" pretty much accepted, and I think (?) Gibson has even used it now, but its origins are not, apparently, in Gibson's early-20th-century literature.  

As for the origins of the scroll, Orville Gibson made a scrolled mandolin as early as 1899 (*article*), probably just to incorporate the somewhat florid ornamentation of the Gilded Age.  It became a feature of Gibson's more expensive models -- as pointed out, carving the ornamental features added significantly to production costs -- and when Lloyd Loar famously developed the F-5 design, his innovations were applied to the "top of the line" scrolled mandolins, rather than the lower priced "A" models.

Some like the scroll (I do), some don't, but there's no doubt that Orville's taste for mandolin body silhouette has persisted and spread to many, many later mandolin designers and builders.  Some have introduced shapes that pay _hommage_ to the scroll, while shortening it, squaring it off, turning it into a "hook," even just adding a solid, vaguely scroll-shaped bulge to the body line -- Gibson did that with their "lump scroll" models.  Like it, hate it, it's here to stay, IMHO.

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Crobanjoman, 

DavidKOS, 

Drew Egerton, 

GeoMandoAlex, 

John Soper, 

MikeEdgerton, 

pit lenz, 

Timbofood

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## GeoMandoAlex

Well said, Allen

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allenhopkins

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## j. condino

Gibson has always been known for practical design and function.  :Popcorn:

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## David Lewis

> Yes, old Gibson’s bad taste in design is at fault for creating some of the most iconic mandolins, banjos, and guitars (acoustic and electric) over the last 120 years. Gibson has had (and continues to have) its issues (and critics), but bad taste in design is rarely cited as one of them.


As a guitarist I am really a fender guy preferring telecasters. I cant get a good sound out of a Gibson. (This is my flaw not theirs). However the LES Paul is a beautiful instrument. It really is.

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## Mandolin Cafe

> Yes, old Gibson’s bad taste in design is at fault for creating some of the most iconic mandolins, banjos, and guitars (acoustic and electric) over the last 120 years. Gibson has had (and continues to have) its issues (and critics), but bad taste in design is rarely cited as one of them.


True, the good has been emulated, while the rest--let's just say sometimes beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Then there's all the bizarre stuff they delved into in the past 25 years that got them in the huge financial mess they're in right now and still trying to find their way out of. After you've listened to people saying, "Gibson right now is making _some_ of their best mandolins since the 20s..." with every new manager that comes along it gets a bit hard to believe. I maintain the company pretty much peaked at Lloyd Loar's departure for mandolins and has struggled to come close since. Great, even iconic guitars after that, but plenty of the rest to make up for them. No one is in business that long without their share of clams.

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DavidKOS

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## James Vwaal

> Why do so many mandolins have that silly looking and useless curl on the body?
> 
> I find it ugly and it must make a mandolin a lot more expensive, to make it.


I am with you on this. Big hunk of wood getting in the way of viewing the higher registers. Thus, I will answer your question: How did the "curl" evolve? Poorly.

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## John Soper

Big fan of pre Loar oval holes (A and F), Loar era instruments (oval or FF holes) - and have owned a few (but not the Holy Grail).  Despite the management over the past 20 + years, the mandolin division at Gibson has put out a good product and David Harvey is a great guy and great luthier.  Several other  luthiers hit a tonality that is "NOT GIBSON" and I prefer.  

As for the "curl" or strap holder, I've always listened to a mandolin before I decided to keep it.  I've found that A models get between 99 - 101% of the tone of a comparable F-style, if the builder and woods are the same.  However, I do like me a sexy F5 mandolin!

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David Lewis

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## sblock

> So again old Gibsons bad taste in design is at fault, just like the yellowed "white" plastic they chose to their Les Paul guitars in the 50'es, that has been used on most LP guitars since. 
> 
> Luckily there are exceptions to those designs for me to buy.


Oh, c'mon!! *This is just Internet trolling*.  Shame on you.  You seem to be trying to get a rise. Folks on the MC really shouldn't take the bait. Of course, you're welcome to dislike the aesthetics of the scroll on the F5 model. _De gustibus non est disptutandum_.  You can like or dislike whatever you wish. But you ought to realize that many others don't necessarily share your jaded opinions. Some of the very best mandolin players out there play F5 models, and we certainly don't hear them complaining much about the F5 aesthetics. Not like you. The look is true to its age, namely, the late Victorian era. Historically, Gibson has been responsible for producing some of the most iconic stringed instrument designs, ever! YOU might happen to think these are all in "bad taste."  I certainly don't.  Gibson has also had its share of spectacular failures of aesthetic design, as well -- like the Mickey Mouse ear solid scroll on the '60's A12. Ugh! But on balance, Gibson designs, and simple variations on these pursued by others, remain the _dominant designs_ in the area of mandolins to this day.  Unless you happen to play a bowlback or a flattop, you probably have Orville Gibson to thank for the design of your modern mandolin, whether it carries a scroll or not.  I'd urge you to lay off the cheap shots and learn some of the history of the modern mandolin; it's fascinating.

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DavidKOS, 

Drew Egerton, 

Hudmister, 

Nbayrfr, 

T.D.Nydn, 

Timbofood

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## David Lewis

I thought wishing to inflame a situation further, do we think the curl adds or the sound? I’ve seen somewhere that it may add a bit of what might be termed compression, with that extra 10cm of air. 

While I have both F and A styles, they’re all different, so I can’t do an a b test.

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## Bertram Henze

We are all divided on this. 
Personally, I like the scroll because it uses misplaced stylistic elements to mock the violin, which I was forced to learn to play in my youth and have hated ever since. However, I wouldn't spend the extra $$ for it, so I have no instrument with one.
Then, there are those who are secretly ashamed of their irrational love with inaudible appendage and therefore frantically try to construct an acoustic benefit from it in a kind of a-posteriori rationalization.

What's your Freudian reason? The good news is: it's all optional. Nobody is obliged to follow anybody else in this, and nobody is obliged to have a good reason for having no reason at all.

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David Lewis, 

DavidKOS, 

foldedpath, 

Nbayrfr, 

sblock

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## Steve Sorensen

Makes a great strap holder, and it sure is fun to play with variations on the theme --

 









Steve

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j. condino, 

John Soper

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## Ray(T)

I’ve always had much the same opinion about neck ties - a totally superfluous accessory which I pretty much avoided throughout my professional life. Ties are pretty much compulsory in certain circles but I suppose the same applies to scrolls with some of the bluegrass community.

Serious mandolin players aren’t so much bothered whether an instrument has a scroll though. Logic should dictate that it should be down to the sound it produces.

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David Lewis

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## Frankdolin

I don't know how the curl came about nor am I a "Huge", fan. But thank goodness it exists or we would have only 2 choices, A or Bowlback.

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Pittsburgh Bill

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## dhergert

It's important to look at period-specific Gibson mandolin markets to understand the popularity of the scroll.

Historically, there was a ping of intense mandolin interest from the late 1800s to the end of WW1 during which Orville Gibson's mandolin work became socially popular among the well-heeled in the parlor and for community and university mandolin orchestras, similar to S.S. Stewart's work during the "classic banjo" period that predated the mandolin's musical period in time.  Orville Gibson built his instruments either with or without the scroll.  The more expensive instruments had them, they added visual appeal and balance and perhaps some physical balance along with the points that had recognizable utility value.  The scroll on fine violin family acoustic instruments has actually been attributed to provide tonal differences, so there may have been some mandolin related logic for that.  Most mandolins were played sitting, so the concept of putting a strap through the scroll wasn't a big influence, and wouldn't be until much later in the mid-1900s.

Once WW1 ended and the Jazz Period began in earnest, the mandolin could not compete for volume with the horns, jazz banjos and drums, and the semi-classical mandolin had begun slipping out of popularity, along with the 5-string classic-style banjo.  By the time Lloyd Loar came along, Orville Gibson's influence in the company had ended and he had subsequently passed away.  Gibson as a company hadn't made big commitments to jazz banjos yet and was looking for a way to keep their aging mandolin and meager banjo investments profitable.  While a few notable period musicians would continue their work, the Jazz Period would eventually nail the lid on the coffin for both the semi-classical parlor mandolin period and classic banjo period in popular music.  

At this time the mandolin in Gibson's eyes was still a semi-classical instrument.  Mandolin was not widely considered a full classical instrument.  Bluegrass didn't exist yet and wouldn't be strikingly popular until the mid-to-late 50s and even then interest in new Gibson mandolins for bluegrass would not inspire Gibson to listen to popular demand with its model designs for another 25-30 years.  So Loar's mandolin design changes were made to appeal to the dwindling pre-WW1 semi-classical parlor-mandolin period players.  In contrast, Loar's guitar designs were extremely successful and popular for this pre-electric Jazz Period because their tone and volume could penetrate better.

By the time the mid-20s came along, the Gibson company had fully invested in banjos and was successfully pressing them forward for Jazz, and the mandolin fell quietly into the background.  Loar had left Gibson on less than pleasant terms and was striking out on his own endeavors, which unfortunately never reached into serious popularity or profitability.  His time at Gibson was really a last-ditch stop-gap effort for the company as they switched gears in production to the jazz banjo.

So the scroll was Orville's design, primarily for visual appeal and balance for his higher-end instruments, but it may also have added some tonal differences.  Loar may have specifically changed Orville's design of the scroll in various ways, but it still was primarily on the higher-end instruments.  Unlike many other specific features, the scroll wasn't described in Gibson catalogs as being specifically a source of any different sound quality, but was part of the package with the higher-end instruments.

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DavidKOS, 

GrooverMcTube, 

j. condino, 

Sue Rieter

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## MikeEdgerton

> Quote above continues a misunderstanding of Gibson's model designations, that "A" and "F" were initials for words like "Artist" and "Florentine."  Gibson assigned letters to different model series, "L" to guitars, "H" to mandolas, "K" to mandocelli, "J" to mando-basses, "U" to harp-guitars.  With regard to their banjo lines, the letters did stand for descriptions: "RB" for "regular [or 5-string] banjo," "TB" for tenor banjo, "MB" for mandolin-banjo, etc...


I missed this, thanks for picking it up. I'm slowing down in my old age.

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allenhopkins

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## DavidKOS

> Oh, youre talking about the thousand-dollar-strapholder?





> Makes a great strap holder,


This is the best reason I've heard for the existence of the scroll! lol

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## MikeEdgerton

I suspect that the Gibson Lyre Mandolins most likely had a letter designation in Orville's records. I'm guessing it would have been B, C, D, or E but that is strictly conjecture on my part. This would have been a great strap hanger as well as having a place to hang your wet socks to dry them out as well.

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DavidKOS, 

j. condino, 

Russ Donahue, 

Timbofood

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## Charles E.

If the OP thinks the scroll on the standard F-5 is ugly, he ain't seen nothing yet.....

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...light=oddities

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David Lewis, 

Joe Bartl, 

Timbofood

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## Astro

Some argue its a vestigial appendage left over from when mandolins lived in the sea. Possibly a flipper. From the Mandozoic Period.

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Erin M, 

Hudmister, 

Mark Gunter, 

MikeEdgerton, 

Russ Donahue, 

Southern Man, 

Trubadur

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## David L

> I thought wishing to inflame a situation further, do we think the curl adds or the sound? Ive seen somewhere that it may add a bit of what might be termed compression, with that extra 10cm of air. 
> 
> While I have both F and A styles, theyre all different, so I cant do an a b test.


I believe that most modern instruments have a solid block inside the scroll, which doesn't add any space to the inside. My 1906 three-point is actually hollow inside the scroll, which might slightly change the tone.

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## Russ Donahue

I can't believe how long this has gone on without one of the cognescenti revealing the true source of "THE CURL." As the illuminated know, it was the Shermgel Family in Bavaria during the 14th century that originated the idea of adding a symbol of power to the stringed instruments coming from their workshops. Passed through the brotherhood, their instruments were used by traveling instrumentalists/proselytizers for the cause. As with any good symbol, it was mistaken, adopted and perverted. Now it is seen as nothing more than fancy (useless) decoration on what once was held to be an icon of authority. For a more complete history, see the Wikipedia entry on Shmergel Destroyer or Shmergel Devestator (that is, if you have the correct code to open THAT version of Wikipedia.)

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MikeEdgerton

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## Russ Donahue

Or ask Allen Hopkins.... :Wink:

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MikeEdgerton

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## Pittsburgh Bill

> I believe that most modern instruments have a solid block inside the scroll, which doesn't add any space to the inside. My 1906 three-point is actually hollow inside the scroll, which might slightly change the tone.


I, too, believe this to be accurate for most builders. Of course, builders that are on this site may endorse or debunk this notion. I base my thoughts upon a well known builder recently telling me that he uses his CNC to cut out the tops and bottoms the same for both A and F styles. I do not recall if he included two points in his remarks. He also brought up the fact that at one time A styles were not built with an elevated fret board which did not permit the top to vibrate as an F style did resulting in superior sound from the F Style. He went on to say that he believed the modern A Style with an elevated fret board offers no tonal differences from an F Style when built the same way excluding the fact that no two mandolins sound exactly the same.

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## MikeEdgerton

I think you'll find most of the F5 scrolls resemble this on the inside. That doesn't mean everybody does it that way but I'm pretty sure it's the accepted norm. This is the Stewmac F5 kit by the way. I'm pretty sure Don Macrostie probably knows how it's done.

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## allenhopkins

> Or ask Allen Hopkins....


The only Shmergel model with which I'm familiar is the Devastator -- I think I saw the back of one once, for about 1/4 second, before the guards hurried me away.  (_That's_ a-whole-nother story...)  Don't think it had a scroll, though the coruscating brilliance of its finish made it hard to pick out details.

However, rest assured that whatever features a Shmergel may have, they'll be so perfectly functional and esthetically appropriate, that there'll be no argument -- and no extended discussion threads -- about whether we like them or not.  The entire design will be accepted by anyone with interest in mandolins.

Those of you who've read Plato's philosophy extensively -- and I assume there are many out there in Mandolinland -- will recall the idea of the "perfect form" of which any earthly object is only an approximation.  (Those a bit rusty on their Plato can catch up in the _Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy._)  I would contend that Shmergel mandolins, if not the true Platonic forms of the instrument, approach that form more closely than any other mandolinic effort.  

But, of course, that's just one person's opinion.

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Mark Gunter, 

Russ Donahue

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## dhergert

> I think you'll find most of the F5 scrolls resemble this on the inside. That doesn't mean everybody does it that way but I'm pretty sure it's the accepted norm. This is the Stewmac F5 kit by the way. I'm pretty sure Don Macrostie probably knows how it's done.


That's how my F-9 looks inside the scroll.  Not completely hollow, but there is some space there.  I used to think the points had some space hollowed out too, but nope.

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## David Lewis

> I believe that most modern instruments have a solid block inside the scroll, which doesn't add any space to the inside. My 1906 three-point is actually hollow inside the scroll, which might slightly change the tone.


Thats interesting. That still might make some difference, maybe. Im now going to grab my mirror and have a look and see if they are hollow or solid.

- - - Updated - - -

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## Tom C

Just view this thread... https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...e-last-century

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## MikeEdgerton

> Just view this thread... https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...e-last-century


It's featured above in Post 30.

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## Mando a Mando

I've found another practical use for the scroll besides a place to hook a strap. When tuning in a noisy room, I tune the first course of strings with a tuner then press the scroll to my cheekbone to tune the unison strings. Try that with an A model.

Werter

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## Bertram Henze

> Try that with an A model.


I did something like that with a two-point a couple of times: looked to the right, pressed the back of the mandolin against my right ear and moved the tuners behind my left shoulder.

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