# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Gibson mandolin repair and parts

## Bernie Daniel

In answer to a question about a player wanting to put a new fingerboard on his Gibson F5 the following quote was made in another string on the Cafe:




> Big Joe: Mark...Gibson does not sell parts like that to consumers. #Unfortunately they only use them in manufacturing and even the repair department must get them from where they can (often Cumberland Acoustics), though they DO NOT buy them pre-fretted. #That would be a real mistake. #Even then they must be fitted to the existing neck to fit perfectly.


Now three things to set the stage: #1) I have 6 Gibson mandolins both new and vintage -- in fact I have only brand Gibson for my mandolins, guitars and banjos -- so by deduction I am not hostile to the company.

2) Big Joe is a former high ranking Gibson employee so he should know the company policy -- and he was only trying to help the OP.

3) My conversations with folks in Gibson repair like Danny Roberts and others have been very pleasant.

But for the life of me I cannot imagine why a company wants to sell you an expensive mandolin and then tell you sorry we do not sell fingerboards bridges, pickguards, inlay or anything else - save strings. #Can you even buy a tailpice or a truss rod cover from Gibson?

In fact even the Gibson repair shop out sources for mandolin parts. #If this is good public relations and customer support then I am a monkey's uncle. (pass the banannas).

What would happen if you wanted a Fender fingerboard or even a Gibson guitar fingerboard or a banjo part -- same thing?

When most of us old guys die off will there be any folks willing to shell out extra for the name Gibson on the headstock?

I do realize this policy keeps good companys like Cumberland Acoustic in business so that is one upside.

I have no interest in bashing Gibson - I just wonder how and when a policy like that got started -- in 1970 a luthier bought a rosewood bridge for a Gibson guitar from the factory in Kalamazoo and repaired my guitar -- when did things change?

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## Crowder

Strange are the ways of the Gibson Musical Instrument Company.

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## woodwizard

Under warranty of the original owner you wouldn't have a a problem I think. But many are not original owners and are left out in the cold. I use to have a A5L I purchaced brand new and while visiting the showcase one time I asked if I could purchase a backup new gold tailpiece for it sense I usually put a lot of wear on a tailpiece. First was told probably not then was told I could sense I was really a owner of the A5L. They were very nice. Eric Sullivan said a lot of people buy Gibson parts to resale and they frown on that and that was what they were watching out for. This was right around or just before Gibson cut down their dealers to just a few. Danny Roberts has been a big help to me in the past. But sometimes Gibson is hard to figure out for sure. They still make my favorite instrument tho.

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## Chris Biorkman

I think this is a big part of the reason why more and more people are gravitating to other brands these days. Gibson needs to realize that people have options now and such business practices don't really endear them to the public.

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## jim_n_virginia

There are a lot of companies and not just musical instruments, that will sell you the machine, product, thing whatever but they are not in the business of selling you parts.

I trhink it doesn't have anything to do with customer relations but more of a business decision. I mean if you stock parts then you stock all parts, then you need part inventry, people to work the parts department, it turns into a whole separate sub department.

I could see where someone might not want to go that way business wise.

I will say this... maybe Gibson doesn't sell parts but once when I need one they sent it to me free. In fact they sent me four of the parts I needed. I'd call that pretty good customer service.

Wouldn't it just be easy enough to find out where Gibson gets it's parts and get it straight from the source? Probably save you money too.

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## Bernie Daniel

> There are a lot of companies and not just musical instruments, that will sell you the machine, product, thing whatever but they are not in the business of selling you parts.


Not to be argumentative but not many companies like that come quickly to mind -- in fact aren't a large percentage of companies in the "razor blade business" -- the razor is free but the blades will cost you etc.

What would you say to a Ford dealer who told you "No we do not carry wheel bearings for your Escape -- you could try calling Timken"

OTOH, nice that you were able to get the Gibson parts you needed. Wonder it that would happen today?

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## Chris Biorkman

I doubt if you were to contact Weber or Collings that they would refer you to a third party vendor to get replacement parts. I'm sure that Gibson has great people working for them as they have in the past (Derrington, Big Joe, and others), but they have definitely been doing things, as a corporation, that are bad for retaining the future business of many acoustic, and more specifically bluegrass musicians, in the years to come. 

They don't really make most of the parts for their banjos, instead assembling parts made by other companies and charging a huge premium for the name on the headstock. I would venture to say that the brand has lost a lot of prestige in recent years, especially since newcomers like Huber are putting out such a great product at a competitive price.

They bought the Dobro brand name and have run it into the ground.

Same with Flatiron.

We are in an age of unprecedented skill and options in acoustic luthiery and unless Gibson makes some changes in the way they operate, I think they are going to see their market share decrease in the years to come. My intention isn't to "bash" Gibson. I know they make some great instruments, so no flaming please.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Can you even buy a tailpice or a truss rod cover from Gibson?


Yes.

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## Big Joe

First remember they are a manufacturing facility and not a retail conglomerate. Thier first concern is for building instruments. They order parts as needed for the runs they do. They do NOT sell parts to consumers but will make them available to authorized warranty centers when they are available. Of course, many of the sources are not that secretive and the parts can be obtained elsewhere if needed. It is not intended to be a pain to the consumer, it is designed to protect the quantity needed for manufacture and to force the consumer to the authorized repair centers rather than do the work themselves. 

I have no dog in this argument either way, just explaining things a bit. While I ran the repair/ restoration division we had the same frustration when parts were not available for periods of time. In retail we were always at the mercy of the individual division for the parts. I could usually get them for either division if I worked hard enough on it. It usually took getting hooked up with someone from that particular division who would be kind to me and let me have the parts I should have had readily available (we were Gibson after all). Nonetheless, I could understand the dilemma each division faced in the parts arena.

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## woodwizard

Not that very long ago Danny Roberts from Gibson mailed me some extra pearl knobs and those little gold screws when I called him up and told him one of my pearl key knobs cracked. I thought that was pretty good service. So far I haven't anything to complain about personally and a lot to be happy that I am a Gibson customer. Just thought I mention that. I'm sure there are some unhappy campers out there. I'm just not one.

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## Chris Biorkman

To me it doesn't sound like the people who have problems are the original, warranty holding owners. I've never heard of any of them having problems.

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## Big Joe

When Charlie or I were there we did all we could to accomadate the customers needs. We tried to go out of our way to do the right thing for every customer. Danny is doing the same and he is one of the finest people you could ever know. If one cannot get what they want from the retail or repair divisions it is not because the employees of those divisions don't want to help. It is simply that they cannot. Danny will go out of his way to help anyone when it is possible and he has a reputation for doing that. Please remember these guys are doing a job that can be frustrating to them also. They work very hard to overcome the obstacles that often face any job one must do. I think they do a great job considering everything.

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## atetone

I think it would be fair to say that Gibson OAI has had (and still has) some great, dedicated people doing the best they can, in a disfunctional corporate structure.
I work for a company like that. 
In spite of all of the pitfalls we actually manage to acheive some good results sometimes too

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## Ivan Kelsall

From what Big Joe's saying,it looks as though Gibson themselves have a difficult time sourcing parts for any repair they wish to make,that can't be good. 
  Having worked in a manufacturing industry all my life,i understand about carrying stocks of parts that may not be used for months,even years & having cash tied up in that stock - hence the fact that the majority of companies employ a "just-in-time" policy
for the sourcing of parts. That way they only get 'what they need' in the 'quantities they want' 'when the parts are required'. The Japanese have a word for it "Kanban".From what i remember having seen a TV programme about this many years ago,the "just-in-time" principle was an American invention employed in the Auto.industry.However,the Japanese took it to heart & in their usual methodic manner perfected it & exported the principle.
  I read an article quite a few years ago,written by a guy who was in the HI-Fi manufacturing industry,making very well known record turntables. He employed the "just-in-time" principle within his company. He decided to visit a japanese company to fully understand how they employed "just-in-time2 & was very surprised to find that they did indeed carry stock of certain critical items that if not available,would halt production.
  So not only did they persue a "just-in-time" policy,they also employed a "just-in-case" policy. I can't understand Gibson not enabling their employees to obtain parts/materials they require in order to do their jobs as fully as they would wish.
  Although Big Joe points out some mitigating circumstances in his post above,it really does not send out a good message to would-be Gibson owners. A 'frustrated' workforce can only be detrimental. All in all,it would seem like Gibson have maybe 'lost the plot' a little,which is a shame,
            Saska

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## jim_n_virginia

> A 'frustrated' workforce can only be detrimental. All in all,it would seem like Gibson have maybe 'lost the plot' a little,which is a shame,
>  # # # # # # # # # # # #Saska


Frustrated workforce? where do you get that?

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## jim_n_virginia

[QUOTE= (Mandolin1944 @ April 08 2008, 23:20)]


> What would you say to a Ford dealer who told you "No we do not carry wheel bearings for your Escape -- you could try calling Timken"
> 
> OTOH, nice that you were able to get the Gibson parts you needed. #Wonder it that would happen today?


There are many companies out there that will not sell you parts and NOT just because thet want to be difficult but they have their reasons.

I'll give you one example... I bought last year an XD-45 Springfield .45 caliber handgun from Springfield Arms, one of the oldest and respected firearms makers in the country and they will not sell parts to this handgun. You have to send it in to their gunsmiths and they will take care of it. And it is not a money issue because any Springfield firearm has a Lifetime Warranty even if you are not the original owner.

The reason they don't sell parts is because they don't want wannabe home gunsmiths working on their product because they have a good name for quality and if some YOYO works on their stuff and it malfunctions later and it gets sold then people are blaming the company not someone who worked on the product who didn't know what they are doing. 

There are MANY valid reasons for not selling parts for a product that is sold.

I could name you as many products that won't sell you parts as there are that will. It is purely a business decision nothing more or less.

And not to be presumptious but YES I do believe Gibson would take care of me, there is a good bunch of guys over there.

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## jim_n_virginia

> My intention isn't to "bash" Gibson. I know they make some great instruments, so no flaming please.


You Gibson bashers crack me up!

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## Bernie Daniel

Well thanks for all the comments. #What is is.

Like I said originally I just find this an unfortunate situation and I wonder if it is not one that could be handled much more expeditiously -- that is the company deciding to take a more cumstomer oriented approach to their business? #It is a no brainer I think.

It is good the original owners of Gibson mandolins are supported - but does it not diminish the value of your Gibson vis a vis your selling it when the potential buyer is aware of the company policy towards the second and subsequent owners of this fine instrument? 

I think it becomes more of an issue with the vintage instruments. #Where would you be if you damaged the neck of a 1953 Gibson F-5 (wide headstock, block Gibson inlay and wider nut)? #I guess you'd have to have a luthier make it up from wood stock? #Or more typical what if you damaged one of the Flatiron era Gibsons with a bolt on neck?

Gibson is back into dovetails and no longer has any new necks like that even though they have 200 customers out there with Bill Monroe signature series mandolins - for example.

I think somewhere along the way the company lost a certain level of committment to their customers. #Restoring it might be a wise move.

I would certainly guess that the number of top mandolin players that step up on stage with a Gibson mandolin will continue to diminish and I wonder what their market share in the mandolin world really is?

Wonder if there would be money in it for Gibson to sell used instrument warranties?

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## jim_n_virginia

> I think somewhere along the way the company lost a certain level of committment to their customers. #


Sorry I completely disagree with that. But thats OK I disagree with a LOT of folks!  

I think Gibson is at the top of their game and making the best instruments they have ever made.

I think the issue is that there are always those who will dislike whoever is on top. 

Microsoft is a good example.

All I know is at any jam, festival, workshop or concert Gibson seems to dominate.

And yes there are a lot of really great builders out there but never forget that most of them are building a Gibson copies.

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## Ivan Kelsall

Read Big Joe's post above - Quote :- "... Please remember these guys are doing a job that can be frustrating to them also", kindly note that i am also NOT bashing Gibson,i'm just at a loss as to why the workforce should be 'frustrated' for any reason at all. I also agree with your statement that most other builders are building to a Gibson 'design',i hesitate to say that they're 'copying'. I also agree that Gibson are probably making some of the best instruments that they've ever made,but if a prospective customer heard that only MAYBE,if his instrument were to develop a fault,it might take a while to get it sorted. That in itself is an 'unknown quantity',but it could deter some buyers - that's my point of view,
                 Saska

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## TomTyrrell

I think somebody misunderstood the quoted post in the OP. Gibson doesn't _sell parts to consumers_, that doesn't mean Gibson won't repair your instrument and replace a part if necessary. It means if you need a new fingerboard for your Gibson mandolin you are going to have to send it to Gibson or an authorized Gibson repair center. Then you wait while they make and install a new fingerboard.

Mandolin fingerboards are not anything like wheel bearings. Most fingerboards never have to be replaced. It would be a business fiasco to try to keep every possible repair part in stock when most of those parts would never be needed. 

I'd be interested in the reactions you would get if you called a few repair folks and asked them to make a new fingerboard for your mandolin and then _send it out to you_ so you can glue it on yourself.

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm going to guess that if you sent Gibson a 1950's mandolin to reneck that wasn't under warranty they would be happy to do it. They'd do a great job and you'd probably choke on the price. When I needed parts for my Gibson that was under warranty they sent them to me. When I needed parts for Gibson products I owned that were not under warranty they sent me a list of suppliers. It's obvious that they don't want to be in the retail parts business or they would have a division doing that. If another manufacturer chooses to be in that business more power to them. They see a place in the market they want to be in and they are there. You as a consumer have the ultimate power to not do business with the folks that don't operate the way you want them to. Everyone has choices.

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## TonyP

Having been in the auto repair biz for years, then manufacturing of machinery, this is an interesting discussion. What I think is really interesting is the analogy of fingerboards and wheel bearings.

 I DO see them as the same in another respect. Wheel bearings like fingerboards, are a crucial part. If properly first installed and taken care of, last a loooong time. But can be installed wrong, wear out, be damaged and potentially be a custom part all the same. And neither in my book would warrant being made in house when they can be manufactured by a supplier, who that's their job. So, they can make it quicker, easier, and cheaper and leave the overall manufacturing to OAI. And going to like Cumberland, who supplies Gibson, is somehow not as good? I guess I don't get it. You have close to the same advantage as Gibson to get the same part, WITHOUT the middleman. How is that a bad thing? 

Wheel bearings are exactly the same. When I was having to work on Dodge motorhomes, you couldn't just go the parts book and get the right #. Depending on what run they were on, they would buy different axles, hubs, bearings, seals etc.. You needed the part in hand and get the #'s from it to get the right replacement. Almost any manufacturing that has bean counters and engineers in the loop are going to be like this. They want the most cost effective part that will do the same function, and go to their suppliers for it. What I call engineer to stock. 

I remember making a machine that needed a simple T-handle. Our engineer decided that we should make it in house. So, somebody had to fab the parts, machine it, then weld it, then paint it. 3 different depts. and took forever. When I pointed out to the engineer this was WAAAAAAAY more expensive than what we could buy the part for, of course he disagreed. He actually thought one guy was doing it. But ultimately the part we made didn't look a millionth as good as the one we could buy. How could it? We weren't set up to cast and produce that part.

To me, that was the height of customer service to give you the list of suppliers. Not many manufacturers I know would do that.

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## TomTyrrell

Obviously you've never replaced a fingerboard.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Tom Tyrrell:I'd be interested in the reactions you would get if you called a few repair folks and asked them to make a new fingerboard for your mandolin and then send it out to you so you can glue it on yourself.


Well you more or less set up that analogy and then answered your own question. #

Obviously, most would not want to glue a fingerboard on themselves -- rather they would probably like to buy a fingerboard and have a luthier fit it up. #For most mandolins you could go to StewMac or whatever. #But what about a wide nut/neck F5?

As to fingerboards usually never needing replacement that depends. #Sam Bush has had a number of new fingerboards installed on his mandolins -- and I assume other pros do too. But if you name is Sam the man Bush then getting the repair is not an issue (and I am not complaining about that).

As to Mike's point the problem is most 1950 F mandolins are probably not under warrenty to the first owner -- they are on their 2nd, 3rd, or even 10th owner by now. #

In my opinion, no one should expect that the Gibson factory should support free repairs -- but they might at least consider stocking parts for their products and yes even for the older oval hole A models, and F2's and F4's and necks with different joints. # 

Also as to the point made that you can always send the mandolin in to Gibson and wait for repairs -- again it depends. #

About mid-year last I called Gibson repair and asked about the wisdom or acquiring -- for a pretty good price!--a Montana Gibson F-5 that had suffered a severe break on the neck including a partially crushed headstock and bent truss rod from being having been partially backed over while in an opened case. #

A manager at Gibson the repair center did return my message but he told me that the Gibson repair center could not do the repair I wanted -- that is to install a new neck, fingerboard and headstock on that F-model which had the bolt on straight slot neck joint. (as an aside they told me a new neck on an F-model will cost 3,000 to 3,500 so it might not have been a winning idea in any case).

But expensive or not I was told there was no way to re-neck it - even though it was a Gibson mandolin only about 25 years old at the time. #The reason was necks with those joints were longer made, there were no spare parts in stock, and they had no access the a replacement neck. 

But they are the Gibson *factory* aren't they? #I guess I could have better accepted the answer -- yes we can fix it for you but it will cost you over 3 grand! #

They did offer to take a look into the possibilty of doing a repair using all with the damaged pieces with special glues for me. #But that did not appeal to me.

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## MikeEdgerton

> as an aside they told me a new neck on an F-model will cost 3,000 to 3,500 so it might not have been a winning idea in any case


I'm going to guess, push come to shove they would do the repair for anyone willing to pay enough. I'd like to know what the repair bill was on Monroe's mandolin. I'm sure there was an insurance company involved somewhere.

I sat and watched a Gibson Employee at Opry Mills rough out a mandolin neck with a Dremel tool. Some place along the line they should be able to do the work but I'm still guesing that Randy Wood or Gail Hester (as well as others) might know a little more about doing that repair and be a better place to take that mandolin.

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## Danny Roberts

Hi everybody I just wanted to help clear up a few things.
I receive parts requests on a daily basis, warranty and non warranty, if it is a simple thing like a tuner button or screw it is no problem for me to send one out, but when I have requests for necks, finger boards, tops, backs, anything that is important to building an instrument I can only sell it if we install it, I have to verify that the part is going on an original Gibson instrument. 
Due to all of the copies that are being built these days, mandolins, banjo's, guitars and Dobro's Gibson policy does not let us sell parts.
I'll do anything I can to help anyone that has a need for repair or Gibson parts, I am just limited in what I am allowed to do.
If anybody has a need for repair or parts please don't hesitate to contact me I'll be glad to help anyway that I can.

Danny Roberts
O.M. Repair Supervisor
615/514/2200 ext 2265

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## MikeEdgerton

I will vouch for the fact that Danny does indeed provide the service he says he does. I got tuner parts for my F5G from Danny and a friend of mine was able to obtain a tailpiece.

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## jim_n_virginia

wow Danny joined in 2005 and this is his third post! 

He sure does jabber jaw on here a lot don't he! 

Don't he have better things to do I thought he was a busy man!

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## TomTyrrell

The thing about trying to install a completed fingerboard on an existing finished neck is the dimensions. If the board is only .001" too wide or too narrow that tiny little step will be obvious to the player. Even if you can't really see it you will be able to feel it.

There are a lot of parts that can't just be bolted or glued on a mandolin without any fitting. 

If you need a new Gibson tailpiece for your Gibson mandolin you can get a new one. You can't get a New Old Stock tailpiece from 1923. That isn't how it works.

BTW, go to your local Volkswagen dealer and ask if they can service one of the old pre-1979 Beetles. They can't. They aren't _allowed_ to. And no, they don't have the parts. Go to your Ford dealer and ask for replacement body panels for a Pinto. Nope, they don't have them. It goes on and on.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Tom Tyrrell: BTW, go to your local Volkswagen dealer and ask if they can service one of the old pre-1979 Beetles. They can't. They aren't allowed to. And no, they don't have the parts. Go to your Ford dealer and ask for replacement body panels for a Pinto. Nope, they don't have them. It goes on and on.


Yeah Tom -- but I was kinda hoping my Gibson would out last my Pinto!

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## allenhopkins

> ...when I have requests for necks, finger boards, tops, backs, anything that is important to building an instrument I can only sell it if we install it, I have to verify that the part is going on an original Gibson instrument. 
> Due to all of the copies that are being built these days, mandolins, banjo's, guitars and Dobro's Gibson policy does not let us sell parts.


You know, I was going to say that one of the factors influencing Gibson's decision not to sell instrument parts, might well be the prevalence of copies.

I didn't post that opinion, 'cause I was afraid I'd be accused by the G-loyalists of "Gibson bashing."

Now that Mr. Roberts has weighed in with a similar opinion, I feel safe from that accusation.

I have a '20's GB-3 Gibson guitar-banjo, that I had Bernie Lehmann here in Rochester make a replica 5-string neck for. #He added a "Gibson" logo and "diamonds and squares" inlays such as a "ball-bearing" RB-3 would have had. #It's still a Gibson banjo, in my opinion, but availability of Gibson parts does make the work of the copyist or counterfeiter easier.

And, with four *authentic* Gibson mandolins, plus guitars, banjo etc., I feel I'm a fully credentialed G-loyalist.

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## cooper4205

> I'd like to know what the repair bill was on Monroe's mandolin. I'm sure there was an insurance company involved somewhere.


I always thought Monroe's repairs were "on the house" so to speak

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## Big Joe

Mandolin1944...you probably talked to the guys who do the electric guitars. Had you talked to Danny or Josh at Opry Mill repair (where all the mandolin repairs are done) you would have discovered they could make the neck for you. I am sure it would have cost 3K or more, but they could do it. They do them when needed for any vintage mandolin...or guitar...or . While it may or may not be worth the cost on a particular instrument, they can certainly do the job. The hard part is finding the right number to the right guys to find what can be done. 

Gibson is concerned about consumers, but they are not in the retail parts business and probably never will be. While I was there we tried valiantly, but without success to bring a retail or consumer parts department into existence. After a good number of years of trying it became apparant that was not what they wanted and it has never been done. It is not to make it more difficult for the consumer, but to force the consumer to an authorized Gibson repair facility for repairs for the exact reasons Danny Roberts stated above. If you ever need repairs on any Gibson (or other brand) and you call Danny you will find they are capable of any job you throw at them.

Again, I am not in ANY way affiliated with the big G any more, but I do have more than a passing aquaintance with the way they operate.

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## Hans

C'mon Danny, you can't send me a new top for my '21 F4? # 
Give these guys a break. You get the fingerboard from Steve Smith and get a builder to put it on, or have Gibson do it. Simple as that.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Hans: C'mon Danny, you can't send me a new top for my '21 F4?


And I will take the same for my 1919 F2 - I am seeing some sag start to set in! #Thanks in advance.




> Hans: Give these guys a break. You get the fingerboard from Steve Smith and get a builder to put it on, or have Gibson do it. Simple as that.


So Hans how much(estimate) would you have to charge to make the kind of repair that I described above? #New neck, headstock (with Gibson and flowerpot), and fingerboard (and #frets please) with all binding matched for a Montana Gibson (with bolt on straight slot neck)?

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## TomTyrrell

I'm gonna need a top, back, sides, neck, fingerboard, bridge, tailpiece, tuners and some other stuff to get my original F5 back up to speed. Please be sure to grab the parts from the "1923" vault!

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## MikeEdgerton

> I always thought Monroe's repairs were "on the house" so to speak


Gibson is a business. If it took Charlie that much time I'm going to guess somebody paid for some part of it. I don't think Monroe was destitute at that point in time.

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## Stephen Perry

Gibson OAI has one of those odd problems of being both a retailer and a wholesaler. I suspect some of schizoid response to inquiries comes from this aspect.

I don't find unreasonable that Gibson can't reasonably fix obsolete products. That's not unusual. I've dealt with a surprising number of firms that don't even have specs or plans or marketing materials for models from the distant past - say 10 years ago. Aftermarket repair facilities exist, supporting this need.

For a neck Gibson no longer stocks, that's no big deal. An independent can simply make a neck from scratch to fit. That's not something a manufacturing firm is going to be able to efficiently do. 

The Springfield Arms analogy above is right on target. Gibson sends out a Gibson fingerboard and a less skilled worker puts it on. Yuck. 

Ford isn't going to fix a smashed up Ford truck. Ford isn't even going to sell you direct the parts to do so.

Eastman isn't going to sell you a neck. They don't have them here, and they're probably all custom fitted, being handmade.

Ramirez isn't going to sell you a guitar neck.

Colnago isn't going to sell you the lugset for a masterlite frame so you can repair it. Their US distributor isn't going to replace a downtube for you either.

Somehow Gibson seems to be held to a different standard. I suspect this is in part from their willingness to retail as well as wholesale. I wonder if their high repair prices are in part to discourage using them as a repair shop.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Colnago isn't going to sell you the lugset for a masterlite frame so you can repair it. Their US distributor isn't going to replace a downtube for you either.


For those unfamiliar with the brand or lingo this is a bicycle.

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## TomTyrrell

Thank you Mike!!!

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## cooper4205

> Originally Posted by  (cooper4205 @ April 09 2008, 23:08)
> 
> I always thought Monroe's repairs were "on the house" so to speak
> 
> 
> Gibson is a business. If it took Charlie that much time I'm going to guess somebody paid for some part of it. I don't think Monroe was destitute at that point in time.


I pretty sure he wasn't charged for it. I found some info on it from a 1986 article in the Tennessean about the repairs. It seems like the second one took a while because the tone bars were damaged and Derrington had other projects that he had to neglect while tending to Bill's main mandolin. 

As far as cost, I think fixing it for free was a good PR move for Gibson and a way to keep their most treasured mandolin player happy. In an article in Frets about the ordeal, it seems they had promised Bill they would do all of the repairs on his instruments for free when they first worked on his mandolin in 1980 and presented him with an F5-L (the first one I think?) 

_February 25, 1986 was the day that the company (Gibson) would return Bill Monroe's Gibson "Lloyd Loar" F5, completely restored, to him. For this major restoration job, they charged him nothing_

and 

_The job on the first mandolin alone would consume three months of 40-hour weeks for Derrington. The work was to be paid for by Gibson_

this is from the Frets article about Bill's F5

_But again, enter Gibson. The company volunteered to see if -- at its own expense -- it could restore the broken instruments_

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## MikeEdgerton

I'm shocked.

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## Bitterbrush

I'm betting that Cooper is correct concerning the repair of the famous Monroe Loar...since THAT mandolin and Mr. Monroe himself had an enormous influence on the popularity of Gibson mandolins. Though a time consuming project to say the least, it'd be a wise business decision for them I believe. You wouldn't want Mr. Monroe to dig out his pocket knife again and carve the Gibson name from the headstock.

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## Hans

> So Hans how much(estimate) would you have to charge to make the kind of repair that I described above? #New neck, headstock (with Gibson and flowerpot), and fingerboard (and #frets please) with all binding matched for a Montana Gibson (with bolt on straight slot neck)?


You ain't gonna get me to make a new neck for your Gibson...

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## MikeEdgerton

> I'm betting that Cooper is correct concerning the repair of the famous Monroe Loar...since THAT mandolin and Mr. Monroe himself had an enormous influence on the popularity of Gibson mandolins. #Though a time consuming project to say the least, it'd be a wise business decision for them I believe. #You wouldn't want Mr. Monroe to dig out his pocket knife again and carve the Gibson name from the headstock.


But this seems such a stark contrast to the company that doesn't care enough for it's customers to have a parts department or a company that is so ungrateful to Bill that they don't buy his mandolin and put it on display. I'm shocked that they would be so in tune to his contribution that they would spend a year or so (give or take) of Charlie's salary to repair his mandolin. 

Or maybe Gibson isn't the evil empire after all.

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## Bitterbrush

Mike,
I'd venture to say you're correct as well

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## TomTyrrell

Henry didn't buy Gibson until January 1986. The repairs to Bill's mandolin were pretty much done by then so all he could do was grab the PR.

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## jk245

> It is good the original owners of Gibson mandolins are supported - but does it not diminish the value of your Gibson vis a vis your selling it when the potential buyer is aware of the company policy towards the second and subsequent owners of this fine instrument?


This is the very reason that I purchased my new (recently discontinued) Gibson rather than purchase a good used one. The price would have been about the same but my instrument is registered with Gibson; I can have original owner support if I need it.

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## John Kasley

The opinions expressed in this thread have been interesting to me, to say the least. So, I'd like to offer my own. The Gibson company, as a company, bears little relationship to the original business started by Orville Gibson. There have been changes of ownership, acquisition/mergers with other companies,acquisition of other brands, etc. When companies change ownership they are not necessarily obliged to continue the policies and obligations of the predecessor companies. In many cases, the acquiring company is primarily obtaining the right to a brand and access to customers of the predecessor company. So when we talk of "Gibson" today,it might be wise to keep in mind that today's Gibson is not your father's or grandfather's Gibson. Personally, I think they do a good job delivering on the Gibson brand promise in the areas I'm familiar with: mandolins and banjos. From what I've read, the employees of Gibson's OAI divison seem to really care about and value the tradition of the Gibson brand and assist customers in any way they can. 
By way of contrast, I have on my desk a rotary dial phone manufactured by Western Electric for the Bell System companies in the 1930's. What do you think are the chances that I could call the current AT&T (whose predecessor company owned Western Electric) and obtain a replacement handset or even a reach a person who cared?

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## jim simpson

I remember being in the late John Zeidler's shop when John told me of folks wanting to buy his mandolin tailpiece. He said if folks wanted it, they could buy it as long as it was attached to his mandolin.

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## Salty Dog

In spite of all the above rationalizations and explanations for Gibson's seemingly erratic marketplace behaviour, I was personally involved in one of their recent marketing "hissy" fits. #They routinely sold the Gibson Grover tuners to small builders such as Ben Wilcox (BRW mandolins). #I ordered what became BRW #61 with Gibson gold Grovers with pearl buttons. #Ben later informed me that because of a marketing change, he could no longer obtain the Gibson Grovers. #It didn't make any sense to me that Gibson could feel threatened by a small builder and furthermore miss the opportunity to profit from his business, as they were not donating these tuners to small builders. #The good news is that I later purchased a set of Gibson Grover gold tuners with pearl buttons off our own Mandolin Cafe classifieds, so the mandolin is now as I wanted it to be - (they were removed from a Gibson). #They are excellent tuners but I am still mystified that Gibson initially declined an opportunity to make a profit from me on those tuners. #Are they trying corporately, to isolate themselves as mandolin world snobs, rather than being a happy and cooperative part of the mandolin community?

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## TomTyrrell

It isn't too unusual for any fairly large company to act in an apparently illogical manner. In the case of the tuners, and a number of other instances, I'm thinking somebody sold a part they shouldn't have sold or they sold a part to someone they shouldn't have sold it to. The excrement hit the air conditioning and the fallout is nobody at the company will sell any part to anyone under any circumstance. This is the safe way for an employee to act.

Gibson's P&L statement isn't going to be affected by the sale or non-sale of one set of tuners.

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## Jeff Hildreth

To paraphrase an earlier post
... a VW dealer is NOT allowed to work on a pre 1979 VW....
Where did you get that bull ?
A manufacturer cannot prohbit a dealer from working on anything they choose.
Dealerships are independent businesses
As a former retail service manager and a former factory field rep I can attest to that with some assurance

As to Gibson not supplying parts.. I agree it is their choice Unlike Martin who will willingly sell parts except for labels and decals and some decorative specialty bits ( some woods in short supply) ... which require special circumstances or an authorized repair shop

Part of the difference here is that Martin actually makes most of their parts...

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## TomTyrrell

Jeff, I got that _bull_ from Volkswagen of America. BTW, I'm surprised you didn't know that VW dealerships are _franchises_.

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## John Kasley

Part of the difference between Martin and Gibson is that the Martin company has had consistent ownership and business strategies since it's inception, as opposed to Gibson which has change hands and strategies numerous times since it was founded.
Also, Martin has decided to do one thing really well...make high quality acoustic guitars (although it had some missteps in the past). Gibson has its fingers in lots of corners of the instrument biz. It's a testament to the dedication and efforts of Gibson/OAI employees that the quality of their mandolins and banjos is so high. It doesn't appear to be the result of any Gibson corporate focus.

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## allenhopkins

> Part of the difference between Martin and Gibson is that the Martin company has had consistent ownership and business strategies since its inception, ..., Martin has decided to do one thing really well...make high quality acoustic guitars (although it had some missteps in the past).


I agree with you overall, but I've been bewildered in the last few years by the slew of Martin models that have been pumped out, some with "formica" tops, decorated with cowboy scenes and Felix the Cat and who knows what else.

When I bought my first Martin in the '60's, I think they made four or five dreadnaught models. #Now there are probably 40-50 if you count all the "signature" and "vintage" and "special edition" models that are issued almost monthly. #Plus Martin's doing so much more with J, OM, and 000 models than they ever did.

My friend the Martin dealer says that the company's requiring its dealers to buy some of the non-wood, "art" top instruments, so he has a "175th anniversary" laminated-top model, with a portrait of ol' C.F. Martin, and a black one with Felix the Feline dancing under the soundhole. #I won't share with you his opinion of these as acoustic instruments, but I think you can infer that they ain't no herringbone D-28's.

I surely don't begrudge Martin their success, and if having a "complete line" of guitars, some great and some, well, marginal, is working for them economically, more power to them. #But part of me longs for the days of "doing one thing really well...making high quality acoustic guitars." #With all due respect to Felix the Cat...

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## man dough nollij

It makes a lot of sense to me that big name makers like Gibson and Martin should go to great lengths to protect the value of their names. Trying to order a fingerboard or tailpiece is a one-off, unusual request, handled by the repair department, not the international purchasing and marketing folks. They no doubt have hundreds of neck blanks and fingerboards (and parts like that), but it makes a lot of sense to me that they limit distribution of those parts to their own authorized repair centers. 

Having recently ordered a custom instrument, I'm curious to hear what some of you think of this scenario: varnished instruments are generally WAY more expensive than laquer finished ones. Since almost all of the cost of varnished finishes is in the labor, I wondered about the possibility of ordering a custom mando (Collings, Weber, et al) unfinished, and varnishing it myself. I would get the benefit of hand-voicing and top notch construction, but would apply the elbow grease of french polishing it myself. It then occurred to me that the maker would be very unlikely to go with that plan, though they could make good money on the transaction. If I were to order an unfinished Weber Fern (for example), then put a nasty, amateurish finish on it, I would be creating a monster. People would see it and infer that Weber (for example) puts out shoddily finished instruments. If it were me (as Gibson, Collings, Weber, etc.) I wouldn't let someone possibly trash my name value by adding their amateur modification to an unfinished instrument. Is it any different with a headstock blank, a fretboard, or other integral part? Something to think about.

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## Jeff Hildreth

I think companies should protect their interests and restrict some materials to the public at large... Gibson chooses to be a bit tighter than Martin.. can you imagine Gibson selling #F-5 #kits ?? # #


Having not only read but assisted in writing dealer franchise agreements and signed up auto dealers as a District Manager .... yes I am fully aware that VW is a franchise...and franchises are privately owned... including VW

To follow up, I called a dealer and former client.. #They can and do work on anything.... there is nothing in the dealer agreement that prohibits them from working on older product..
May I suggest that you have them recite the page and line in the dealer agreement that prohibits the dealer from working on older product..
No dealer agreement I have ever seen contains anything remotely like that.. which would include # a few Euro manufacturers ,Japanese as well as American.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Part of the difference between Martin and Gibson is that the Martin company has had consistent ownership and business strategies since it's inception, as opposed to Gibson which has change hands and strategies numerous times since it was founded.


I think if you read the history of Martin you'd conclude that the business strategies weren't all that consistent. They have been pretty close to the end a few times due to very inconsistent business strategies. That isn't uncommon in any business that has been around as long as Martin has.

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## Jeff Hildreth

Another distinction #mentioned briefly is that Gibson has had many reincarnations. #Specifically there has been no GIBSON, family or otherwise ,involvement since 1908.

Only in recent history did Martin have an "outsider" as a corporate member ie the vp of operations ( from a bank background no less)

Gibson has been a true corporation for many years.. I think some of us remember Norlin.. they also owned parking lots.. seems like a good match to instruments.. # ( parking lot pickers)

Update:

April 18 8:26 Am PST

Per VW of America Customer Service 

" There is nothing in the dealer agreement that prohibits an individual dealer from working on older product. If they have the tools and parts resources they are free to do as they wish. They are independent dealers, it is their call. Volkswagen of America has no restrictions on what a dealer may or may not work on. They must be willing and equipped to service and repair all Volkswagens currently in production and/or covered by warranty or special recall. "

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## Bernie Daniel

> jaka: By way of contrast, I have on my desk a rotary dial phone manufactured by Western Electric for the Bell System companies in the 1930's. What do you think are the chances that I could call the current AT&T (whose predecessor company owned Western Electric) and obtain a replacement handset or even a reach a person who cared?


Jaka that is a pretty poor analogy with all due respect. #

The first Gibson F-5 built in 1922 is essentially the same as a 2008 Gibson F-5 MM. #Certainly you cannot say that about that old rotary phone and new ditigal with caller ID and all the other features. #The analogy makes no sense does it? #For the mandolins all the parts are are the same for the phones none of them are.

Why do you still have that old thing on your desk? #

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## John Kasley

I have this phone on my desk for two reasons: 
1) I like the retro look.
2) It works when the power is out, provided Verizon's battery backup is still working. This comes in handy during the occasional hurricane in our neck of the woods. OK,it's an imperfect analogy. On the other hand, by definition, no analogy is perfect. The point I was trying to make: The successor company to AT&T no longer supplies parts for this device. (although there are individuals/businesses that do offer original or reproduction replacement parts). I don't expect, nor do I think others expect, AT&T to supply parts for this old phone. 
Gibson has had many suppliers of various parts over the years, I don't expect the current Gibson company to stock replacement parts for old models. Why would they? I can't think of a good business reason why they would. Just as I can't think of a good business reason why the current AT&T would stock replacement parts for my Western Electric Model 302.

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