# Music by Genre > Old-Time, Roots, Early Country, Cajun, Tex-Mex >  unexpected versions of old time music

## Jim Nollman

I'm producing a CD of "deconstructed" old-time and European tunes. The tune in my signature, Swinging on a Gate, offers one example of where I'm heading with this. The overall production includes unexpected musical styles such as bebop drums, plus a varied instrumentation which includes occasional tuba, bird samples, synths, blues bass, jazz bass, or for another example, a reggae rhythm that seems to fit perfectly to a  jig.  

My own mandolin playing anchors every tune of the 9 that are complete.

For homework, I have listened to a lot of fiddle tunes plus newgrass, plus the uniquely different jazz stylings of Grisman, Creaking Tree, Bela Fleck, Edgar Myer, Punch Brothers. All of this music is founded on a very high level of virtuosity. Nonetheless, a lot of this virtuoso music is starting to sound the same to me. Or should I say it sounds like one of two things. I hear EITHER jazz stylings (overwhelmingly a jazz before 1950) or modern classical stylings. Plus, all of it is  acoustic.

The question I'm putting out here, is if anyone can guide me to any other kinds of deconstructed arrangements of this music beyond the acoustic, and even beyond the virtuosic. For example, I am using MIDI to compose individual parts in several of these tunes. As a recording technique, this ends up sounding very different than what a virtuoso brings to the same part. For just one trivial example, I can make a tuba play chords. Or add cajun rhythms played on sampled drums.

Are there any good examples of old time melodies (or celtic melodies) done as rock and roll?  Or as techno? Or as integrated into the music of any modern composers? I think you all get the idea of what I seek. 

By the way, almost all my composed tracks, start off life being played live on a MIDI mandolin.

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## cstewart

I'm not certain its exactly what you're looking for, but are you familiar with the Peatbog Faeries?  Scottish folk/electronica/reggae/rock/etc.

http://www.peatbogfaeries.com/
http://www.myspace.com/peatbogfaeries

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## mandolirius

Try this one: 

Daniel Koulack "Clawhammer Your Way To The Top", 1991, Little Giant Records.

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## allenhopkins

Buffalo Springfield's song _Go And Say Goodbye_ is based around the melody of _Salt Creek._

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## JeffD

One of my favorites.

Great old fiddle tune.

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## JeffD

Then there is this famous re-take. Compare

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## Jim Nollman

yes, many thanks. keep them coming.

Found lots of stuff by the Peatbog Faeries on itunes. That's kind of in the pocket for where I am heading. Their use of sampled and looped Uillian pipes is inspiring. Can't believe I never heard them. 

I can see that this so-called genre doesn't have a lot of musicians exploring it. One thing itunes led me to, was John Fahey, whom i haven't heard in years. Now there's a master whose music lived way out on the edge. Makes me wonder if anyone has ever thought to remix his solo work with a rhythm section. 

Couldn't find the Koulack selection. What is available by him is what you'd expect from a traditional banjoist.

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## journeybear

Not sure I follow. Isn't what Stepp is doing (and ELP) "Hoedown" from Rodeo by Aaron Copland?  :Confused:  Don't hear a connection to "Bonaparte's Retreat."

I seem to recall Jethro Tull doing a little of this, but am still in the wondering stage. Fairport Convention did a fair amount of reworking olde British folk songs. Still thinking ...  :Coffee:

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## JeffD

They are all Boneparte's Retreat, which started as an OT fiddle tune. Aaron Coplan got it from a written out transcription of the tune, which is where Kay Starr got it for her song. The written transciption was from a field recording, if I remember the history right, and the transcriber was classically trained and did not catch the cross tuning. 

I forgot to put Copland's Rodeo in there.



and a quirky version by Tommy Jarrel, which is more what Aly Bain is playing:

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## Jim Nollman

Aha. I can see I got you thinking, Jeff. 

 I always thought Kay Starr was the stage name for Aaron Copeland. I'd like to order a few suits from Keith Emerson if it will make me play even 1/2 as frenetically as he does.

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## JeffD

Besides, its whats for dinner:

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## journeybear

Oh, OK, it's a second part in the original. I didn't hear it in the ELP version. Nor in the beef commercial. And anyway, Greek salad was what was for dinner.  :Smile:   :Popcorn: 

Oh - there it is. Emerson really blazes through it just once, about 1:05. My bad, but real easy to miss.

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## mandocrucian

Quicksilver Messneger Service - _"Shady Grove"_




Mountain - _"Nantucket Sleighride"_, (the instrumental interlude is _"The Cutty Wren"_)

Thin Lizzy - _"Whiskey In A Jar"_
and later, Metallica did a cover of Thin Lizzy's version of _"Whiskey In A Jar"_

The Byrds - _"Jack Tarr The Sailor"_ 
Led Zeppelin - _"Gallow's Pole"_
Jimmy Page - _"Blackwaterside"_
Jeff Beck - _"Greensleeves"_
Jefferson Airplane - _"Good Shepherd"_

And then of course, there are _plenty_ more examples from the Brit/Irish Folk-*Rock* bands such as:
Fairport Convention  (and its numerous offshoots)
Horslips 
Trees
Matthew's Southern Comfort
Five Hand Reel
The Pogues
Alan Stivell (Brittany/France)
Malicorne (France)
Hoven Droven (Sweden)
Garmarna (Sweden)
Hedningarna (Sweden/Finland)

and (in the USA)
The  Grateful Dead
Goose Creek Symphony
Kaleidoscope

- - - - -
I've been revamping trad. tunes into other genres for 20 years, some of that stuff has made it onto various CDs.

*Any* melody can be played with the 'pitch sets' of _any_ major/minor/jazz scale or mode or ethnic scale/mode, or moved into _any_ other time signature, or superimposed over _any_ different rhythmic groove/accompaniment or instrumentation.  It's just  raw material to be manipulated.

NH

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## allenhopkins

Obray Ramsey and Byard Ray, under the name _White Lightnin'_, released an album in 1969 with rock session musicians backing them up.  It's called _File Under 'Rock,'_ and it's downloadable *here.*  Haven't listened to it, but it sounds like the kinda stuff you're looking for.

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## Ed Goist

African American Spirituals:
_Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child_ - Sinéad O'Connor, Sarah Vaughn and Van Morrison 
_Swing Low, Sweet Chariot_ - Nina Simone, Stevie Wonder, The Grateful Dead, Joan Baez & many others
_Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho_ - Elvis Presley
_I Want Jesus to Walk with Me_ - Solomon Burke, Keith Richards
_In My Time of Dying_ - Bod Dylan, John Sebastian, Led Zeppelin, The Lovell Sisters.
_Moses_ - Tim O'Brien
_Oh Mary, Don't You Weep_ - Pete Seeger, Bruce Springsteen, and this stunning solo version by Theresa Andersson:

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## journeybear

This is probably _not_ what you're looking for, but I was reminded of its existence by some activity on it last night. As an example of the possibilities of interpretation:

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## Ed Goist

> African American Spirituals...snip...


Speaking of the rich tradition of African American Spirituals, and how they might apply to this topic, I thought this morning that it is almost a certainty that elements from these spirituals were used by George Gershwin for his opera _Porgy and Bess_, and by Scott Joplin (for just about everything he wrote).

Of course, I have no first hand references or citations to this effect, just a strong hunch.

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## catmandu2

> John Fahey, whom i haven't heard in years. Now there's a master whose music lived way out on the edge. Makes me wonder if anyone has ever thought to remix his solo work with a rhythm section. 
> .


One of Fahey's more obscure works is _City of Refuge_ where he adds techno and industrial elements.

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## Ed Goist

> They are all Boneparte's Retreat, which started as an OT fiddle tune. Aaron Coplan got it from a written out transcription of the tune, which is where Kay Starr got it for her song. The written transciption was from a field recording, if I remember the history right, and the transcriber was classically trained and did not catch the cross tuning...


For anyone interested...
Personally, I'm very much looking forward to trying these once I get my current projects more shored-up:
_Bonaparte's Retreat_ tab by Nigel Gatherer
_Bonaparte's Retreat_ tab by Strum Hollow

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## catmandu2

> Speaking of the rich tradition of African American Spirituals, and how they might apply to this topic, I thought this morning that it is almost a certainty that elements from these spirituals were used by George Gershwin for his opera _Porgy and Bess_, and by Scott Joplin (for just about everything he wrote).
> 
> Of course, I have no first hand references or citations to this effect, just a strong hunch.


I believe your intuition is well founded, Ed.  This has been well assimilated in the jazz vernacular.  Many jazz players have recorded orchestrated compositions as well--if you look under individual names, Jim, you'll likely find more.

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## Jim Nollman

Your comment, Cat, reminds me of an old thread on the Cafe about the origins of ragtime via hornpipes. In very general terms, I think we all agreed, at the time, that many hornpipes play with harmony and note selection in ways you'd never expect to hear in a jig or reel. 

I learned a lot about ragtime phrasing while recording a CD of a solo pianist playing rags a few years back. Then last summer I got into learning several hornpipes on mandolin. I immediately noticed that some of the phrases I was playing, were mirror image of phrases used by Scott Joplin. The best example may be  the relatively obscure tune called Garfield's  Hornpipe, which is in Bb, not a very common old-time key. It was probably written in the early 1880s, 15 years before Joplin started writing music. 

It's great hearing all these rock and folk versions of old time tunes. I am always amazed to realize how totally dated so much of the music from the 1960s sounds today. Of course, with some very notable exceptions, although Steeleye Span and Traffic are not quite among them. 

What interests me more than rock or folk versions, is whether any of the Bebop or cool jazz improvisers of the 1940s and 50s took on any of these tunes. I mean, something akin to the likes of  Sonny Rollins or Monk playing Shove the Pigs Foot. The classical world shows something similar to this. For example, Eastern European songs for folk dances stripped of all innate simplicity of melody and rhythm, to be transformed by Bartok into rather dark reflections of themselves.

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## catmandu2

I believe Joplin's father was a banjo player too.  It is interesting to observe the convergences among disparate idioms.

There is a tradition in jazz--especially prolific among be-boppers--to quote phrases from familiar melodies from folk and classical music.  Many recorded solos by Dexter Gordon, Bud, and Bird, for example, contain elements of well-known folk music.  They liked the music of Stravinsky, Debussy, and others.  And of course the European composers derived material from their ancestry.

Of course, standards are standard.  If one wants several versions of "All The Things You are," for example, one would logically look to jazz to find innumerable versions...with as many interesting treatments and deconstructions as imaginable...right on up to Mingus' "All The Things You Could Be If Your Mother Was Married To Sigmund Freud."

Check out Conlon Nancarrow for interesting approaches to standard repertoire.

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## Jim Nollman

I seem to recall Nancarrow  used a paper punch to compose for player piano. What an image. And very outside stuff. haven't heard anything about his music for years. I'll check it out.

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## catmandu2

Yeah, I'm not sure how relevant he is (I think he passed years ago) to your project, but he just came to mind in context: using a machine which plays nothing but "standards" to render non-standard music.

I like the sound of your recording, btw.  Do you have access to a synth, btw?

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## Jesse Harmon

That Theresa Andersson clip just knocked me out.  What an artist!

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## JeffD

I think one cool aspect of this is seeing the kernal of the tune, the part that is preserved despite the new version. Its the part of the tune that got the interest of the artists outside the genre to try the tune their way. Try and bring out what they love about the tune.

One of my favorit moments from Frank Zappa's book:

_Mr. Kavelman, the band instructor at Mission Bay High, gave me the answer to one of the burning musical questions of my youth. I came to him one day with a copy of "Angel in My Life" - my favorite R&B tune at the time. I couldn't understand why I loved that record so much, but I figured that, since he was a music teacher, maybe he knew.

"Listen to this," I said, "and tell me why I like it so much."

"Parallel fourths," he concluded._

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## farmerjones

John Hartford did a tune called (Makes Me) Come on Slowly. It was derived from the fiddle tune called the Cucoo's Nest.

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## Ed Goist

> That Theresa Andersson clip just knocked me out.  What an artist!


Another awesome version, though quite different:




You can probably tell this is one of my favorite songs....And also one of my 'go to songs' (in the key of G) at jams. Folks who haven't heard it before just go nuts over it, especially vocalists and fiddlers. Try it, it's guaranteed to get things kickin'!

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## Jim Nollman

can anyone ID those mics hanging over the fiddle players in the Springsteen video.

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## Jim Nollman

to answer Catamandu's question. I have lots of synths in software. My wife plays all the keyboard parts on this CD-in-progress. On "Swinging on a Gate, I seem to recall that I recorded her one-take electric piano part both direct and as MIDI. Then I fed the MIDI track into a bass synth, then blended it with the straight piano track to create something that seemed to fit the rhythmic niche I needed to fill.

There's another tune on the project, "Rights of Man" (I'm sure you all know it). I've always thought this fiddle tune has something special in terms of its harmonic potential. So I recorded the main melody on mandolin, then added a second track of mandolin playing double-stop  harmony. I then converted this harmony track to MIDI (using software called Melodyne). In Protools,  MIDI shows as notes on a musical staff which i was able to compose by adding notes to create complex harmony and then move these composed jazz chords back and forth in slight time increments, to create a solo that was deeply influenced by Thelonious Monk's piano style. I triggered this composed MIDI track with a piano sampler set to "upright". 

As this description tries to explain, I do like to use the studio to its utmost, but likewise insist that all the parts originate from a player's performance.

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## JeffD

I would like to distinguish between taking something and making it different for the sake of hearing it different, versus trying to express what is great in a tune in another way.

Printing the Mona Lisa entirely in ASCII characters, or adding a mustache, versus seeing how you do that enigmatic smile in three dimensions, or acrylic colors, or neon lights.

The second interests me greatly, the first not so much.

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## Jim Nollman

I appreciate your critique Jeff. 

Interpreting Mona Lisa may be a poor analogy for interpreting a piece of music. The Mona Lisa is a one-shot affair by a great painter. Everything that alludes to that image, exists primarily as a metaphor for how the culture views so-called "great art".

Composers write down music precisely so it can be interpreted by others.  One thing that has always been universal in this relationship, is that all interpreters hear greatness differently from each other. Even familiar music can hold many surprises.

No artist can safely put his work out for the world to examine, unless he is also willing to let go of it.  No doubt, the world is always going to chew it up and spit it out however it chooses. Those artists who hold back any part of their creative drive for fear of being judged, better consider other career options.

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## catmandu2

> I would like to distinguish between taking something and making it different for the sake of hearing it different, versus trying to express what is great in a tune in another way.


How do you propose to do this?

How is it known that the motive for one's "making it different for the sake of hearing it different" is anything other than creative, and of some aesthetic value?"

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## Jesse Harmon

> Another awesome version, though quite different:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can probably tell this is one of my favorite songs....And also one of my 'go to songs' (in the key of G) at jams. Folks who haven't heard it before just go nuts over it, especially vocalists and fiddlers. Try it, it's guaranteed to get things kickin'!


I'm with you on this one.  I'll probably be watching for more, but Theresa is definitely my new love.

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## Rob Norton

One of my favorite bands that did a little something like this was Area Code 615.  Here they are doing "Katy Hill" live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUGCxqrRJUY

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## allenhopkins

> One of my favorite bands that did a little something like this was Area Code 615....


Yes, _yes, yes!_  Two great LP's, _Area Code 615_ and _Trip In the Country_ -- Bobby Thompson, Charlie McCoy, Buddy Spicher, Mac Gayden etc.!

I think this _Johnny Cash Show_ performance was synched (unless there were about six more fiddles playing off-camera), but these Nashville session musicians were at the top of their game in 1969-70 when they recorded.  Apparently both recordings *available at CD Baby.*

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## Perry

> The question I'm putting out here, is if anyone can guide me to any other kinds of deconstructed arrangements of this music beyond the acoustic, and even beyond the virtuosic. 
> 
> Are there any good examples of old time melodies (or celtic melodies) done as rock and roll?  Or as techno? Or as integrated into the music of any modern composers? I think you all get the idea of what I seek.


Danny Barnes: Bad Livers "Blood and Mood" has some interesting old-time with drum machine along with cut and paste spoken word stuff. Some of his other projects touch on this concept too.

Joe Craven's "Camptown" has some very interesting rhythmic interpretations of traditional fiddle tunes. It's acoustic but worth checking out what he did.

Wasn't there a CD years ago that Ronnie McCoury was on that had a unusual mixture of funk and bluegrass?

Finally I had a kids CD that had I think hamsters on the cover and they did some techno fiddle tune stuff. Heavy drums and midi overload. It was catchy I kid you not.
If interested I will try to dig it up.

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## JeffD

> How is it known that the motive for one's "making it different for the sake of hearing it different" is anything other than creative, and of some aesthetic value?"


"What evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows."   --Lamont Cranston

Of course we can't know definitively. But what I would say is that I don't like it if it sounds as if someone is just screwing around with it to make it weird sounding. When it sounds like that, I don't like the sound - what ever the actual motivation.

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## catmandu2

> "What evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows."   --Lamont Cranston
> 
> Of course we can't know definitively. But what I would say is that I don't like it if it sounds as if someone is just screwing around with it to make it weird sounding. When it sounds like that, I don't like the sound - what ever the actual motivation.


Gotcha.

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## Jim Nollman

> I don't like it if it sounds as if someone is just screwing around with it to make it weird sounding.


My own best known piece of recorded music is Froggy Went a Courtin' performed with 300 turkeys, a CD distributed by the Smithsonian. The event was influenced by John Cage whose music i was often performing at the time. Catmandu's ever-shifting signature in this thread quotes both Cage and Foucault  on beauty.  Cage's most famous line is: "music is anything you can get away with".   :Disbelief: 

So I have some historical interest in hearing more about this aesthetic distinction between musical greatness vs musical weirdness. Let's keep it personal. And let's keep it to fiddle tunes.

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## catmandu2

> My own best known piece of recorded music is Froggy Went a Courtin' performed with 300 turkeys, a CD distributed by the Smithsonian. The event was influenced by John Cage


Well done, Jim.  :Coffee:

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## journeybear

That was you with the turkeys? Love that!

OK, not strictly a fiddle tune, but here is a rocking version of that same song:

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