# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Bickford Mandolin Method

## domradave

I saw on Craigslist that someone is selling all 4 volumes of the Bickford Mandolin Method for just $25!  It is offered on the Rhode Island Craigslist.
The Bickford Method was endorsed by Marilyn Mair in her Mandolin World News column years ago.  I understand that volumes 3 and 4 are out of print.
She also endorsed the William Place, jr. method, 3 volumes, which I have used.
Is anybody familiar with both methods?
David

----------


## mandopops

I'm got the 4 Volumes of Bickford. The 1st 2 Volumes I used when I studied w/ Mr. Vicari. The other 2, I picked up years later-repro copies-from "someone" here. I think they are superb, very through, detailed and planned out. Highly recommended. For $25, sounds like a deal.

The Place, I have volume 1 & 3, I'd like to find Vol 2. I like the Place method also. Good details & organized.

 I also like the little Christofaro method. It's small, just one volume, but a nice compact method.

Joe B

----------


## mandoisland

You can find some information and a link to a download of the first book on my website:


Bickford Mandolin Method

A set of all 4 books for 25$ would be great, I have books 1 and 2 and copies of 3 and 4.

Bickford describes the technique very detailed, I think his method belongs to the very good ones.

----------


## Jim Garber

I have all 4 copies and was selling photocopied and coil-bound on quality paper a while ago. I believe the first book may still be in print but the others are not.

----------


## mandopops

I'm glad Jim jumped in. He was the "someone" I got Vols. 3 & 4 from.

Hey Jim,
 I didn't to put your name out there if you didn't want. They are excellent copies.

Joe B

----------


## domradave

If I get a mandolin and the Bickfords are not sold, I think I would get them.
Toni Nigrelli has the full set.  She also has the Bickford Mandocello Method book.

----------


## Beanzy

I used the four books, very methodically for book 1 but kind of superficially for the books 3-4 that I bought as PDF from Djangobooks because I was really focussing on other methods. I will go back to them in detail once there is space in my schedule. 

They're wonderfully 'old-school' but I found them rewarding. I would have liked to access the further tunes he lists after sets of exercises as the example ones are all too brief to spend too much time on.

----------


## Jim Garber

Michael from Djangobooks bought a copy of my volume 4 so he could scan it and sell it as an eBook. I think his source was not as clean as mine. So it goes...  :Smile:

----------


## Beanzy

:Grin:   is this "The Circle Of Lifts"?  

I meant to add that if anyone comes across any Bickford tunes it would be nice to get them on here so people could use them in conjunction with the books. ta

----------


## domradave

The set of Bickfords is not on the list any more. I will look for the Goichberg book of etudes.

----------


## MandoBetsy

Do you still have any copies of all four volumes available for purchase? If so, how much? Please send me a private message if you'd like.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Do you still have any copies of all four volumes available for purchase? If so, how much? Please send me a private message if you'd like.


I PMed you.

----------


## August Watters

> Michael from Djangobooks bought a copy of my volume 4 so he could scan it and sell it as an eBook.


I hope someone will just take all four books and put them on IMSLP for free download. It's in the public domain!

Thanks to Jim for making these available (at cost, I'm sure) up to this point, but sure would like to see this in free circulation like the other classic methods out there.

----------

DavidKOS, 

derbex, 

Hany Hayek, 

Jairo Ramos Parra

----------


## DavidKOS

> I hope someone will just take all four books and put them on IMSLP for free download. It's in the public domain!


Amen! I love IMSLP and the resources it provides for musicians.

----------

derbex, 

DougC, 

Hany Hayek, 

Martin Jonas

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

This subject hasn't come up in awhile. Noticed amazon.com added a listing since yesterday for The Bickford Mandolin Method as a reprint which has apparently occurred a number of times. At under $10 not a bad price for those that want a hard copy. Appears it might be available in electronic form in various places on the web.

----------


## Jim Garber

Django Books had it. In fact when I was selling comb-bound copies of the later volumes he bought a copy of my volume 4 to make his eBook.

It looks like the Amazon version is a print-on-demand edition. That would be an amazing bargain if it had all four volumes for under $10, although I do wonder about this:




> Product Dimensions: 6 x 0.2 x 9 inches
> Shipping Weight: 5 ounces


That is pretty small dimensions for the book which should be closer to letter size. Also all four volumes I would guess would weigh more than 5 ounces. I would also have it spiral bound for easier day-to-day use.

----------


## fatt-dad

Skeptic Alert!

Could it be a paperback "booklet" that holds a CD of the original restored pages?

f-d

----------


## SincereCorgi

I wonder whether their print-on-demand set-up requires typical paperback-novel dimensions. I find playing out of books that small to be a pain in the neck.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I wonder whether their print-on-demand set-up requires typical paperback-novel dimensions. I find playing out of books that small to be a pain in the neck.


That is sort of strange. I think Mel Bay does POD and sells them with a generic cover on a standard size, like their other books. For instance, see our friend *John Goodin's Telemann book*.

----------


## Vangelis M.

I have bought several technical books from this website, which as far as I am concerned offers free delivery everywhere:
https://www.bookdepository.com/searc...arch=Find+book
Bickford's Vol.1 seems to be available there too.  :Smile:

----------


## Martin Jonas

> I have bought several technical books from this website, which as far as I am concerned offers free delivery everywhere:
> https://www.bookdepository.com/searc...arch=Find+book
> Bickford's Vol.1 seems to be available there too.


Volume 1 is a free download from archive.com in wonderful quality -- no need to pay anybody:

https://archive.org/details/bickfordmandolin01bick

The other three volumes are harder to get at the moment, although equally public domain.  All of them are at Djangobooks.com (who also have the Bickford tenor banjo and ukulele methods and the Olcott-Bickford guitar method), but it feels wrong paying them for PDFs of public domain books although I did buy Volume 2 from them a while ago.  The Amazon.com deal linked by Scott above is much better value, we just need somebody to try it and confirm that it's all four volumes in decent quality.  I suspect it's actually only volume 1, prepared from the free archive.org scan.  The title page of the archive scan also refers to all four volumes, but includes only the first.

Martin

----------


## Beanzy

I suspect you're right about that being book 1 only Martin.

I bought books 2,3 & 4 but didn't mind paying Djangobooks for them as they've done the work of sourcing & scanning them for me so that's really what I thought I was buying there. I like to encourage that sort of effort so they see it as worthwhile and may try other similar publications from hard to get sources. I do think it would be good to get hold of the tune books with the additional examples listed in the text. I might make a list and post it here so we could go rummage various collections & see if any are available.

----------


## mandoisland

I think paying for a printed and bound copy is ok even if it's from a public domain PDF - if you take into account that paper, ink and binding is not free... 
But maybe sombody can make a good scan of the volumes 2, 3 and 4 and post it to IMSLP.

----------


## Scott Tichenor

OK, all these questions...

I did a lengthy recording session recently and the person that did it gave me a gift certificate for amazon.com as part of the payment. After my daughter bought a bunch of cosmetics I still have plenty left over. Who wants to be the recipient of a mighty $10 purchase I'm offering to make on your behalf? Would ask you post a review and answer questions about this publication for others. Would prefer it be someone that has already posted above and has questions and is truly interested in the content.

----------

Jim Garber

----------


## fatt-dad

Not sure. What I'm saying yes to. . . I'm interested in this publication to some degree and will give full report to the best of my ability. 

f-d

----------


## Peewee

> The Amazon.com deal linked by Scott above is much better value, we just need somebody to try it and confirm that it's all four volumes in decent quality.  I suspect it's actually only volume 1, prepared from the free archive.org scan.  The title page of the archive scan also refers to all four volumes, but includes only the first.
> 
> Martin


If you go to the publisher's website, they offer unlimited online access and pdf downloads of all of their books for $8.99 / month. They also have free previews of their books. Unfortunately, the Bickford isn't on their website, so I emailed them and got the following response:




> All new titles such as this one are added to the website in PDF format and available to order in print. We update our online collection once every 1-2 months, so I recommend that you do check our website soon to see if it has been added.


I also suspect it's only Volume One. When it shows up on their website, we'll be able to look inside and see.

----------


## Mandolin Cafe

> Not sure. What I'm saying yes to. . . I'm interested in this publication to some degree and will give full report to the best of my ability. 
> 
> f-d


Thanks to my superb mandolin playing skills in a recent recording session (you'll just have to take my word for it, but seriously, I was really good. Humble too) and the recipient of a nice amazon gift card for my efforts, a copy of Bickford is heading fatt-dad's way with the only stipulation that he can report back to us on what he finds within the contents.

----------

fatt-dad

----------


## Jeff Hildreth

"This subject hasn't come up in awhile. Noticed amazon.com added a listing since yesterday for The Bickford Mandolin Method as a reprint which has apparently occurred a number of times. At under $10 not a bad price for those that want a hard copy. Appears it might be available in electronic form in various places on the web."

Ordered, received and thrown on the pile of other books of little value.

Because its size, near unreadable.
If copied, fuzzy and unreadable.
Because of its binding.. near impossible to fold out for use.

I had all four copies of the original.. unable to find, thought this might be of use, not for me.

----------


## Mandobar

I got mine Friday and finally got a chance to look at it.  I had a set of the originals that I bought from Marilyn Mair, which gig lost in a move, so I am really skeptical that this is all four volumes.  This is a very thin volume, and I will have to verify, but I don't believe it's the full set.  if you look at the cover of the original printing of volume 1 it states "in four volumes".  that does not necessarily mean it contains all 4 volumes, and in fact it does not.  According to what I have seen on the archive files volume 1 is 104 pages alone.

----------


## Jeff Hildreth

Agreed , it is not all there.

A minor disappointment, should have known for $10.

----------


## Mandobar

Yes, its volume 1 only.  I compared what I downloaded from the web and the print copy.

----------


## fatt-dad

Dear All,

I won the prize and received the, "Classic Reprint Series" of, "Forgotten Books," "The Bickford Mandolin Method," "In Four Books," by Zarh Myron Bickford.

I knew nothing of this publication prior to clicking on the OP and reading.  

Here's what I received from Amazon.



Here's the inside.



Inside the cover flap is an advertisement for, "Forgotten Books" inviting you to have a one-month free subscription for their, "Forgotten Books" library.  I'd imagine the entire four volumes are there, and maybe it's on me to figure that out.  Just haven't done that yet. . .

Regarding the book I received, the print is small.  I'd like this at standard sheet music size where you could put it on your music stand or such.  No way at this size and I got new glasses!  

Regarding the content.  Volume 1 is very comprehensive if a bit dated.  I'm o.k. with the dated style and know that the early content is fundamental to all music instruction - i.e., how to build scales, chords and rhythm.  If sized properly it seems a great resource for a teacher when the student has no formal musical background!

I don't pick correctly!  They don't really like the upstroke or so it seems.  Not as much as I do at least.  

So, that's the review to date.  If I get my free month, I'll further comment.  

f-d

----------


## Jim Garber

> I'd imagine the entire four volumes are there, and maybe it's on me to figure that out.  Just haven't done that yet. . .


F-D: do let us know, however, I spent a few minutes searching through the other books and I believe that the only book of Bickford's is Volume 1. I hsve a feeling this is a large collection of scanned public domain books amny of which seem to be of little interest. Their search engine is a bit odd. I put mandolin in and figured there would be a handful of books but it seems like it searches over a wide range and gave me all sorts of books unrelated, as far as I could tell, to mandolin. Hmmmm...

Then again, maybe there is something of worth. Let us know if you find something.

----------


## Jairo Ramos Parra

> I hope someone will just take all four books and put them on IMSLP for free download. It's in the public domain!
> 
> Thanks to Jim for making these available (at cost, I'm sure) up to this point, but sure would like to see this in free circulation like the other classic methods out there.


2019 and still the 4 Bickford books are not available to download for free, neither those of Pettine, nor those of Ranieri, etc ... I hope someone finally put them on archive.org, IMSLP!  :Smile:

----------


## Classicalcomp

> 2019 and still the 4 Bickford books are not available to download for free, neither those of Pettine, nor those of Ranieri, etc ... I hope someone finally put them on archive.org, IMSLP!


I know they’re not free, but the 4 Bickford are available from the django site.  About $48 all together. I bought all of mine there. 

The pettine is still under copyright but I have my own personal edition of the 7 I purchased and made some backup pictures of. If there’s interest I’ll take them to the professional library scanner and make some copies since they are no longer for sale for educational purposes.

As for Ranieri, 3/4 are on the imslp, I have volumes 1/2 also.  Note it is public domain only in Canada right now.

----------

Jairo Ramos Parra

----------


## Jairo Ramos Parra

Yes, the 4 books of the Bickford Method are sold on that site, but (as August Watters wrote) since they are in the public domain, if anyone has them why not put them on IMSL or archive.org?

About the ranieri method, only volume I and II are currently sold, and they are a condensed version of some edition of the 50s, I think, and not of the 1925 edition ... and Pettine's method, as it was written More than 70 years ago it should already be in the public domain ...

  The same with the studies of Goichberg, Lansing, etc ... :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Doug Freeman

Here, you can get Vols. 1 & 2 in a Carl Fischer edition for $375, PLUS you get a free vintage Kay mandolin!

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sf...966196337.html

----------


## Jim Garber

> Yes, the 4 books of the Bickford Method are sold on that site, but (as August Watters wrote) since they are in the public domain, if anyone has them why not put them on IMSL or archive.org?
> 
> About the ranieri method, only volume I and II are currently sold, and they are a condensed version of some edition of the 50s, I think, and not of the 1925 edition ... and Pettine's method, as it was written More than 70 years ago it should already be in the public domain ...
> 
>   The same with the studies of Goichberg, Lansing, etc ...


I believe Bickford is pre-1923 and for those you may be correct. The edition of Ranieri I have is copyright 1959 so that may not be PD. This is published by Musikverlag Cranz, Mainz. I have a couple of sets of Pettine books and IIRC (I will check mine) these may have had the copyright renewed though I do think he original books were published much earlier. I see online that Pettine Method was revised and coyright renewed in 1930.

Also, here is a rather *old thread from 2010* on the subject. In that thread is a link to a *pdf from the US copyright office*.

----------


## jelhai

It's worth mentioning that even if a work was originally published in the US before 1924 (advanced from 1923 last January 1), a later translation of the work to another language may still have protection under copyright law. I don't know if this applies to any versions of the books under discussion here.

----------


## Jairo Ramos Parra

The pdf that Jim Garber posted about copyright is quite clear on the matter, especially if someone wants to read and understand the legal gibberish...

At the moment I would like to mention what I have observed in practice (and without wanting to establish endless discussions about copyright), as a mere user:

Archive.org has modern books with current copyright, and I think they manage them like any library by lending them for some time and through Adobe Digital Editions (I say I think because there are some books with current copyright free to download).

For example, on archive.org you can borrow Renaissance Solos for mandolin by John Holenko, Jack Tottle's book on Bluegrass mandolin and The early mandolin by Paul Sparks ...

I am studying Latin, and although some very valuable books can only be provided for a certain time and with limitations, The Sixth Edition of Latin Wheelock with a value of 30 dollars or so on Amazon and current copyright, can be downloaded freely ...

So I think that those classic mandolin methods and Etudes, which are no longer published and only have educational purposes, if anyone has them why not host them on archive.org? they will manage them ...

As for the ranieri method, a book one and two are currently sold with copyright, but they are condensed versions edited in the 50s ... not the original version ... so, citing Tavy in the thread about the pettine method:

 "Strictly speaking that's neither here nor there - as long as you don't scan from a modern copy as any changes made to the text will have a newer copyright. If you work from an old enough copy you should be OK though. It's a bit like Shakespear is still in print, but definitely not in copyright ... "

Jairo  :Mandosmiley:  :Mandosmiley:  :Mandosmiley:

----------


## Jairo Ramos Parra

It is understandable that people who have found and bought copies of these hard-to-find methods now want to make some money with them, but how much money can they make with them? Here in coffee the practice I have seen is to share freely ...

Sheri Mignano has done an enormous job collecting the old scores of the Italian 'ballo liscio', and posts them here in the forum freely for the use of the members. Evelyn Tiffany Castiglioni, has done the same. Pieter Van Tichelen in Europe has found invaluable baroque mandolin material, and posts it freely on his blog ... and there are many more examples ...

 :Mandosmiley:

----------


## mandoisland

I have posted several mandolin methods in he public domain in the Petrucci Library (mandolin methods - I think most of those method have been scanned or uploaded by me).

You can only upload books to IMSLP if those books are public domain. When you upload a book you have to confirm that it is public domain. This works fine for authors who have died before 1949.

Bickford died in 1961, Ranieri in 1956, Pettine in 1966 - so you will have to wait until those methods can be made available unless you find a printed copy from 1923 or earlier which makes this public domain in the USA, but not elsewhere.

It is necessary to follow this rules / laws if you want services like IMSLP to remain.

If you can read in German check this article
The header says: "because of IMSLP I have studied law and worked as an lawyer for five years"
Publishing companies are very strict if copyright laws are not followed. IMSLP would not exist if they would have sheet music that's still protected by copyright.

Many libraries have made scans of sheet music from their archives - but only for books that are public domain. Sometimes it is difficult to find out when an author has died, in this case books are made available after a reasonable time.

I am offering some of the methods that I have scanned at musicaneo for a small fee. I have spent many  to buy those methods, and spent many hours to make the scans. The money I get from selling the scans is very useful for me to buy other old methods (if I find those).

There are enough mandolin methods freely available to let you practice and learn the mandolin for years - the Pettine, Bickford or Ranieri books don't contain anything that's really necessary to become a good mandolin player.

----------

August Watters

----------


## jelhai

The creator's year of death does figure into the determination of public domain in many countries, but not in the US. The works of many creators who died before 1949 still enjoy US copyright protection. Anyone in the US who uploads or posts materials should keep that in mind. 

The Internet Archive (http://archive.org) makes practically no effort to monitor the copyright status of uploads from users. Many items you can find there in all media categories are posted in violation of someone's copyright. I am not a copyright attorney, but uploading copyrighted material and making it available to the world would probably not qualify as an educational use under US copyright law, although the law is vague on the meaning of educational use and fair use.

Why do I care? Hundreds of my works are protected by US copyright. (All literary, none musical.) Without that protection, I would lose my livelihood. I make my living by licensing my copyrighted work, and unauthorized users and people who post my work without permission are stealing from me. Just because a work is out of print does not mean it cannot be profitably licensed by the copyright holder, who is the owner.

----------


## Classicalcomp

> The creator's year of death does figure into the determination of public domain in many countries, but not in the US. The works of many creators who died before 1949 still enjoy US copyright protection. Anyone in the US who uploads or posts materials should keep that in mind. 
> 
> The Internet Archive (http://archive.org) makes practically no effort to monitor the copyright status of uploads from users. Many items you can find there in all media categories are posted in violation of someone's copyright. I am not a copyright attorney, but uploading copyrighted material and making it available to the world would probably not qualify as an educational use under US copyright law, although the law is vague on the meaning of educational use and fair use.
> 
> Why do I care? Hundreds of my works are protected by US copyright. (All literary, none musical.) Without that protection, I would lose my livelihood. I make my living by licensing my copyrighted work, and unauthorized users and people who post my work without permission are stealing from me. Just because a work is out of print does not mean it cannot be profitably licensed by the copyright holder, who is the owner.


I will say, I certainly agree with you to a point.  Having a copyright is meant to be a protection so that a persons works will not be profited by another individual and group.  It was also a recognition that it was never meant to extend indefinitely and these works were meant to be used by the public and enter the public domain after a reasonable timeframe.  

What happens when you have a copyright law as extended as ours is that we have no way of telling what's happened to the owners of copyrights.  There's no easy way to find out what company owns the rights to what.  So you have a number of works that are being lost to abandonment that may not have any copies in the foreseeable future.  

My opinion is a copyright holder should be required to make their works available for a period of time during the copyright or lose the rights outright.  They should have to register their work every 20 years, and show that for at least 5 of those years it's been available in some format.  If they fail, then it enters the public.  That way also, we would have a much better idea of who owns a copyright if we're looking for permission to use their works.  

As for fair use, the internet is the worlds library right now.  If I can't purchase a work, but someone has a copy of that work, I should be able to request a copy from them.  If I go to a library, many times I will get a photocopy of the work from a lending library.  It is still in copyright, but since it's for educational purposes, they do that for me.  

I'm very much supportive of people profiting off their works, but with that comes a responsibility to make works available to be profited from.  I would pay fairly for a hard copy of the bickford mando-cello book and that's in the public domain.  There are many works, I'd be more than happy to pay for, but if I'm not given the chance because a publisher no longer wants to publish it, then my fair use outweighs their copyright because I'm not impacting their ability to make money from their work.

----------

Beanzy, 

Jairo Ramos Parra

----------


## jelhai

I doubt that many copyright owners would fault someone who wants to make a photocopy of an out of print work for personal use. But that is very different from someone posting a scan of the out of print work on a website where anyone could download it. Posting the scan of the work can financially harm the copyright owner.

The Bickford mandocello method, which is still protected by copyright in the US in any edition published after 1923, is a perfect example. Today the audience for that book is small. If someone posts a scan online, a large percentage of that small audience will find and download it. This destroys the market in the event the copyright owner wants to license a new published edition.

Unfortunately, whether an out of print work appears in a new published edition is beyond the control or means of most copyright owners. How can the owner of the Bickford method force Mel Bay (or whomever) to publish it, especially if the intended audience is tiny? Self publishing any work (especially music) requires a significant investment of time and money. Do you wish to force copyright owners to make those risky investments every 20 years?

I appreciate that you see artistic creation as a form of public service in which users have a perceived right to buy or access the work over time. I don't see it that way, and my view accords with the brief mention of copyright in the US Constitution. To me, artistic creation is a form of property ownership. The creator, as owner, should determine how and if the copyrighted work is exploited, published, and distributed.

As things now stand, copyright in the US expires after 96 years. You may think that term is too long, as do I, but it is not an indefinite time. The way to change it is to lobby the US Congress.

----------


## dhbailey

As it stands now in the U.S. copyright for older works which were under copyright in either their first term or their renewal term when the U.S. Copyright law was re-written in 1978 have protection for a total of 95 years from the year of publication. However new works copyrighted in the U.S. are copyrighted for the life of the author plus 70 years, so that the effective term could be well over 100 years -- a person copyrights a work in 2019 when they're 18 years old, they live until they're 98 (so they get 80 years of protection until they die) and then that work is copryighted for an additional 70 years, so the copyright term for that work could be 150 years!  In most countries that "life plus 70" is the law.  Canada is "life plus 50" and there are a few other countries with that term, but most countries have "life plus 70."  "Work for hire" copyrights (where an individual or a corporation hires a person to create something but the copyright ownership rests with the employer) in the U.S. last for 95 years total.

----------

jelhai, 

Joe Bartl

----------

