# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Custom Build Luthiers

## treidm

Who are the Custom Build Luthiers, that can build mandolins that can equal or outshine production models from the big boys?

It just seems to make sense if a Luthier can make one as good or better and still be cheaper in price, it's a good thing to consider it, unless your hung up on the brand thing.
I also don't mind if it's an A5 instead of F5 Style

I live in KC area so we do have some locals. Leo Posch, Jim Trigg and a few more. Trigg mostly did guitars but does mando's more now days. Leo is more known for banjos and guitars but does do mandos. Which builders have the best reputations in your opinions?
Thanks, Reid

Current Mandolins:
1952 Gibson A-40 (x-Braced)
1993 Washburn M3 SW/TS (F-Style, Tone Bars, Radiused Fingerboard)

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lflngpicker

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## yankees1

Production models from the "big boys" ?? Like who?

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## sunburst

> ...It just seems to make sense if a Luthier can make one as good or better and still be cheaper in price...


That does seem to be a common notion among people, but I don't understand why. It seems obvious to me that a custom guilder can build a superior product compared to a production instrument ("big boys" or otherwise), but why people thing we can do it cheaper is beyond me.

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Bill Kammerzell, 

Bob Clark, 

Charles E., 

craigw, 

JEStanek, 

JFDilmando, 

Jill McAuley, 

Joe Mendel, 

John Lloyd, 

Northwest Steve, 

Randolph, 

Robert Mitchell, 

TC-in-NC, 

thecelloronin, 

Timbofood, 

Tom Haywood

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## peter.coombe

+1!!

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## KGreene

_"Who are the Custom Build Luthiers, that can build mandolins that can equal or outshine production models from the big boys?"_

Steve Gilchrist …  :Grin:

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lflngpicker

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## vic-victor

It really depends on what you mean by "the big boys". If you mean the top grade luthiers that charge 10's of thousands for their work is one thing and the answer is probably yes. A little known skilled luthier sometimes can make an equally good instrument and sell it at a fraction of the price the top luthiers charge. But if by the big boys you mean, say Weber or Northfield, the better grade individually made instrument will likely cost more, not less.

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yankees1

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## Bob Clark

Good luthiers have spent years perfecting their craft and a small fortune on tools.  I, for one, do not want to pay them bare-bones minimum for their work.  I appreciate their artistry and want to pay a fair price for it.  Good factory made instruments can be had for relatively little money.  Let's pay a fair price for the craftspersonship provided by our small shop luthiers.

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EvanElk, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

TC-in-NC

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## treidm

> Production models from the "big boys" ?? Like who?


Sorry, not specific enough. By big boys, I meant Gibson, Collings, Weber etc..
Larger manufacturing companies that one might assume would have a much larger overhead that they pass on to consumer and/or brand recognition that many times require you to pay a little for the name.

My thoughts may be wrong. I thought it was a worthwhile thing to ask, as the insight from those more experienced could prove to be helpful and if not it will still be interesting and informative to me. Thanks for the responses
Reid

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## treidm

Thank you KGreene
Is that the guy who worked on Monroe's Mandolin?

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## Ivan Kelsall

Both Weber & Collings were considered as ''single build'' luthiers at one time. They certainly weren't large companies like Gibson. Bruce Weber joined up with ''The 2 Old Hippies'' group. He's now left them & is a 'single build'' luthier once more,so put Bruce Weber on your list under his new Co.name,''Montana Lutherie'' :- https://www.montanalutherie.com/bruc...therie-future/

   I don't know how others view the Collings Co.,but IMHO,they're still pretty much as they were prior to the passing of Bill Collings,basically a 'family' brand. 

    For other 'single build' luthiers,look under the 'Builders' section at the top of the page - there's more than anybody could sensibly list in a single post - however,if you want to know 'who' are considered to be the top 10,then maybe the members could help out - but expect far more than 10. The best builders don't come cheap ,& as with all other 'top notch' products,we don't expect them to be,
                          Ivan

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lflngpicker, 

yankees1

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## William Smith

There are many GREAT custom builders, here is my list and just a quick one who pops in my gourd! Gary Vessel, John Hamlett, Steve Gilchrist, John Monteleone, John Paganoni, Bill Halsey, Lou Stiver,
Randy Wood-pry the pioneer right there along with Givens! Dudenbostel, Adrian Miroslav? sorry can't get the last name right in my mind as of now :Whistling:  Don MacRostie, Altman, Love the work of the builder of Silver Angels with the carving and paintings! Is his name Ken? Paul Duff, Campanella etc....No disrespect to any that I've missed but this is a list that can go on and on as there are so many builders out there building top notch mandolins that's why I believe there is a big price reduction in the originals Loar signed F-5's and Ferns etc...
   Some peoples logic why spend all that cash on an original 20's F-5 when I can get something just as great for a fraction of the cost! For me while I'd rather have an old F-5, to me anyway there is something in the old dried out wood, an unspoken history that's inside those old "antiques" They are the originals that everyone since has tried to copy in a sense. The original F-5's are just  :Cool:  OH YEAH!

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treidm

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## rowka

Great old instruments were once great new instruments.

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## CES

Skip Kelley is building some awesome mandolins!

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lflngpicker

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## Michael Neverisky

> Great old instruments were once great new instruments.



Indeed. And they were made by a large manufacturer named Gibson (or Martin in the guitar world). 

I've had my hands on a few pricey instruments, the benefit of living near a major retail store, and have concluded that the value ratio of price / performance is at its best with manufacturers like Collings and Northfield. Regarding tone and playability, there is no equivalent improvement that comes with paying 2x or even 10x more. Which is not to say that small shops don't compete. I've played a few Campanella instruments that I thought were fine. They were priced similarly to a Collings.

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## Charles E.

Just look at the builders data base here on the cafe.....

https://www.mandolincafe.com/builders.html

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treidm

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## MontanaMatt

I was in the same lane as you two years ago.  I got a custom Ratliff.  I love it!  It is only one year old, and will be awesome for several generations to come, after I'm done with it.
Having a instrument made just for you is a special treat, if you can, do it.

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lflngpicker, 

treidm

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## pheffernan

> I live in KC area so we do have some locals. Leo Posch, Jim Trigg and a few more.


I'd add Mike Black who makes very attractive A5's based on the Griffith Loar body style.

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Bob Clark, 

David L, 

lflngpicker, 

treidm

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## Br1ck

I'll tell you something. After putting my Arches kit together, I will never again think luthiers charge too much for a mandolin. And people like Frank Ford think Collings  puts together a mandolin as good as any. And any luthier that can build an instrument someone would pick over an Ellis or a Gilchrist deserves to charge what they can get.

There are a lot of builders building F 5s for less than 5k, a steal I M H O.   The only problem I have with that is not having the dough.

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lflngpicker

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## lflngpicker

This is a really good discussion on a topic that can go many directions.  Each of those lead to some ideas and new thinking that will benefit those of us trying to gain as much mandolin knowledge as possible.

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treidm

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## KGreene

> Thank you KGreene
> Is that the guy who worked on Monroe's Mandolin?


First off... my statement was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek, focusing only on your first sentence, (Sorry, couldn't resist). I've only had the opportunity to play one Gil (a phenomenal instrument), and I would venture a guess that they'd all be more expensive than "the production big boys"... Mr. Gilchrist obviously has some crazy talent for making wood and wire sound the way he does. Listen to anything Ronnie McCoury does on his Gil for one example.  I believe he did do some work on 22/23(?) Loar at Carters some time back, but honestly couldn't say if it was Monroes or not (I don't think so though ..??).

If I had to make a recommendation based on your question... with all components being equal . David Houchens here in Va.

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lflngpicker

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## MikeEdgerton

> Thank you KGreene
> Is that the guy who worked on Monroe's Mandolin?


The late *Charlie Derrington* at Gibson rebuilt Monroe's mandolin. *Steve Gilchrist* is a well known builder based in Australia.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Who are the Custom Build Luthiers, that can build mandolins that can equal or outshine production models from the big boys?
> 
> It just seems to make sense if a Luthier can make one as good or better and still be cheaper in price, it's a good thing to consider it, unless your hung up on the brand thing.
> I also don't mind if it's an A5 instead of F5 Style
> 
> I live in KC area so we do have some locals. Leo Posch, Jim Trigg and a few more. Trigg mostly did guitars but does mando's more now days. Leo is more known for banjos and guitars but does do mandos. Which builders have the best reputations in your opinions?
> Thanks, Reid
> 
> Current Mandolins:
> ...


It's Triggs not Trigg. Jim is well known in the community.

http://www.triggsmandolins.com/

I should also note that The Mandolin Cafe is based in Lawrence, Ks.

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## colorado_al

KC is a great region for mandolins! Bradford Fret Shop in KC and Mass St Music in Lawrence are 2 great shops.
https://www.bfstrings.com/store/c5/Mandolins.html
https://massstreetmusic.com/pages/se...ions-mandolins

I would check out Mark Franzke and Mike Black for local, high quality, luthiers. Both are building great mandolins!
https://www.mfstrings.com/
http://www.blackmandolins.com/index.html

I think the best buy in your area is the shop brand at Bradford Fret Shop. They are called the Hawthorn and are made by Mike Black, but are considerably less expensive than Mike's personal brand. They are excellent mandolins at very good prices
https://www.bfstrings.com/store/p44/..._Mandolin.html

$2,995

https://www.bfstrings.com/store/p101..._Mandolin.html
https://www.bfstrings.com/uploads/1/...1_i2_w516.jpeg

$1,900

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treidm

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## treidm

> Love the work of the builder of Silver Angels with the carving and paintings! Is his name Ken?


If you happen to remember his name, sounds very interesting with carvings and art. would like to see photos of some of his work.
thanks for all the names, I've jotted them all down.

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## treidm

colorado_al on KC area
Soooooo helpful! Thanks.....
I bought a Martin Guitar, had Gibson Mandolin worked on, Gibson guitar worked on, all at mass street
love the place! I'm close to Lawrence
on the KC ones I will definitely check them out...

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colorado_al

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## treidm

> It's Triggs not Trigg.


I'm very sorry, I know it's triggs, I just made an error in typing. I will go back and see if I can edit and correct it. Again sorry for the typo mistake, please forgive...

It's letting me edit this post, but won't let me fix my mistake, sorry.
I will try and read more carefully what I've typed before I post it.

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## rowka

Silverangel are made by Ken Ratcliff. 

Search the forum for Silverangel, you’ll find plenty of info.  He’s sending me a new El Fantasma, due to arrive today.

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lflngpicker, 

treidm

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## MikeEdgerton

Lawrence Kansas is the home to another Mandolin great as well.  :Cool:

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## Ivan Kelsall

I'd maybe add ''Girouard'' mandolins to the list. Everything i've read about them on here has been very positive. Jamie Weins builds some fabulous mandolins,certainly amongst the _very nicest in appearance_ that i've ever seen on here,& i believe that they sound as good as they look. Jonathan McClanahan also builds superior quality mandolins. I'd have both those guys on my short list of builders,
             Ivan :Wink:

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lflngpicker, 

treidm, 

yankees1

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## treidm

Thanks so much for all the opinions!
So far just by looks and reading about them, I really like Mike Black's A5 & Northfield's A5 Special
Sooo many pieces of candy in the jar....
If I go through with this, it will be my first buy into the luxury models, so to speak. Although my mandolins have served well and the Gibson is Wide open, it's either a nice mandolin or 4-string tenor banjo that I'm thinking about.
Not rushed for time, so I can be patient and hopefully make a good decision.
Thanks again for all opinions, they are very informative to me....

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## DataNick

The popular luthiers getting a lot of play from the pros, and rightfully so are Sorensen and McClanahan

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Ivan Kelsall, 

John Soper, 

lflngpicker, 

treidm

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## Ranger Bob

> If you happen to remember his name, sounds very interesting with carvings and art. would like to see photos of some of his work.
> thanks for all the names, I've jotted them all down.


Ken Ratcliff

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treidm

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## Mandobart

Sonny Morris (Howard) builds great fiddles and mandolins.  His style is intentionally understated - you won't see any fancy inlay or even binding.  He builds for tone and playability, and excels at both.  He is based not far from me in Oregon.  I have a custom hybrid F4 he built that has a better low end response than anything else I've played, which includes quite a few of the "big boys."  A Morris mando will set you back about a third to a half of a Weber, Collings, Gibson, etc.

Another favorite builder is Tom TJ Jessen of Cricketfiddle.  Somehow I've ended up with 5 of his instruments - an F5 mandolin, A4 10 string mandola, F4 octave mando, custom 10 string F4 mandocello and custom 10 string hardanger viola.  Very reasonable prices, very easy to work with, beautifully built and awesome sounding.

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lflngpicker

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## MikeEdgerton

Tom Jessen's work is interesting. It's probably a good thing that he includes custom cases with his instruments.

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## treidm

Scratch Northfield, didn't realize some or most were made in China.  :Frown: 
Quite a few of the Brands mentioned look promising, Thanks for all the tips....

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## Willem

I second Mandobart's recommendation of Sonny Morris. I am beyond thrilled with my Morris A5. Best $995 I have ever spent. He is certainly willing to customize for ya.

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lflngpicker

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## colorado_al

> Scratch Northfield, didn't realize some or most were made in China. 
> Quite a few of the Brands mentioned look promising, Thanks for all the tips....


Some of the Northfields are made in Michigan, some in China. I wouldn't scratch them off though. They are still hand built, in a small shop, and very well made. Just because their facility is in China doesn't mean they are mass produced in a big instrument factory.

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lflngpicker

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## lflngpicker

I agree with Al regarding Northfield.  The proof is in the pudding-- great instruments that are being played by people such as Mike Marshall.  And a second to Howard Morris' work-- the tone and action of his instruments are very impressive.  You select the woods, finish and nut width, etc.

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## treidm

> Some of the Northfields are made in Michigan, some in China. I wouldn't scratch them off though. They are still hand built, in a small shop, and very well made. Just because their facility is in China doesn't mean they are mass produced in a big instrument factory.


It's not mass produced in big factory that makes me scratch them off my list.
I am retired Union worker. If possible our family buys from USA co. made in USA, if not available next will be American co and assembled here and down the line.... Then with foreign made we do strong union country's that have great workers rights records like France, Germany, Sweden etc.. If at last resort, nothing but Asian is available like TVs DVD players etc, then we have to, but we prefer to use American made if we can. We also shop at local hardware stores etc.. and only if we have to use Walmart
There are plenty Mandolin makers that are USA made. Others may choose to buy by their criteria and that's great and the American way. Ours is a preference to USA made by American co. It looks as though northfield is double breasted co. and has alot done in china, so we'll pass on them. They do look very nice and by the youtubes, they sound very good also, just not for us.
There are quite a few that have been mentioned that I'm really diggin' !  So thanks again for all the tips. I've settled on getting an A-5 style so far. In no hurry, as I'm still building the stack of cash it's gonna take to do this....

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## Ron McMillan

Best bang for the buck custom A5s that satisfy your need for American manufacture, in no particular order (and all of whom have been mentioned already) 

** Girouard
** Mike Black
** Pava
** Northfield (at least two A5 models and one A4 made entirely in Michigan)

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lflngpicker

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## treidm

I've been looking at the Blacks and like them. I will now look into  the Girouard & Pava. Thanks...
I still will stay away from a dbl breasted co, that has many made in china. Again, it's our preference to buy from USA co. that makes them All in the USA. Plenty available for me to choose from. There will be plenty that can buy from northfield, just not me.   :Smile: 
Thanks again for all the names for me to check out. VERY helpful!

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## colorado_al

> I've been looking at the Blacks and like them. I will now look into  the Girouard & Pava. Thanks...
> I still will stay away from a dbl breasted co, that has many made in china. Again, it's our preference to buy from USA co. that makes them All in the USA. Plenty available for me to choose from. There will be plenty that can buy from northfield, just not me.  
> Thanks again for all the names for me to check out. VERY helpful!


Understood.
Where are you located? There may be someone local to you as well where you can try some of their builds. 
If you're looking for A5 models,
You might also consider Mark Franzke also in the KC area https://www.mfstrings.com/about.html

I'm also a fan of Steve Smith @ Cumberland Acoustic. His line of Redline A5 mandolins is worth well more than the $2000 he asks for them
https://redlineacoustics.com/mandolins/a-5-mandolins

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lflngpicker, 

treidm

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## yankees1

> I've been looking at the Blacks and like them. I will now look into  the Girouard & Pava. Thanks...
> I still will stay away from a dbl breasted co, that has many made in china. Again, it's our preference to buy from USA co. that makes them All in the USA. Plenty available for me to choose from. There will be plenty that can buy from northfield, just not me.  
> Thanks again for all the names for me to check out. VERY helpful!


  You can't go wrong with any of your three potential choices of Girouard, Pava or Black. I went with Girouard and absolutely love it !

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treidm

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## Mandobar

> Scratch Northfield, didn't realize some or most were made in China. 
> Quite a few of the Brands mentioned look promising, Thanks for all the tips....


Sooner or later people need to “absorb” the fact that the portion of Northfield mandolins actually constructed in China are made there because that is where the individual within the company responsible for those tasks has chosen to live.  None of the Northfield models are made en masses like Eastman or Kentucky.  Would you feel the same if he/she did the same tasks in Portugal or Peru?

Judge the builder and instrument by how well it suits your needs and the budget, not where it’s being made.  I’ve seen some pretty rough looking and sounding instruments come out of luthier-built shops located in the US.  I wouldn’t buy them over a Northfield.

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lflngpicker, 

yankees1

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## Eric Hanson

Time to throw another up and coming luthier into the works. 
If you aren’t looking for a strickly “Gibson” toned instrument, it might be of interest to look at Tyler White, of “White Mandolins”. 
I have seen a number of his instruments first hand. While each of them has its own voice they all tend to be very pleasant to the ear. 
His work is just beautiful. He handrubs the stain to get a real vinatage look. And, has developed some wonderful skill in doing so, getting the wood grain to POP. 
He is VERY picky with his coice of woods. He also puts very great thought into what woods he uses. He often chooses Red Spruce for tops, though he has used Engleman on a few, and uses primarily Sugar Maple for the backs. This too is not an absolute as he built a Red Maple backed one lately that was really nice. 
He takes a respectful amount of pride in his work knowing that his name is on each one that goes out the door. 
Add to this he is quite a pleasant individual to talk with about his process of building. He is open to hearing choices of different options/appointments on the instruments he builds. He also has enough experience to give a bit of feedback on why he would or would not recommend doing so. 
One more great thing. At this point in his history of building his price point is very desirable. Giving amazing value to what he is building. 
He can be found on the Builders List here on the cafe, or a quick google search will find him. He has some very attractive pics on his website of his previous builds. He can also be found on Instagram, showing his builds and his shop. One other place is to look on YouTube; a number of videos there to hear the tone and power of his mandolins.

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geechee, 

lflngpicker, 

treidm

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## Timbofood

Sad to say, I heard that Bill Halsey has decided that he’s retiring from the Mandolin building facet of his considerable woodworking talents. He will continue to make bows but, mandolins are no longer on the Bill of fare. (Sorry, I’ll go to the corner)

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## treidm

> Sooner or later people need to absorb the fact that the portion of Northfield mandolins actually constructed in China are made there because that is where the individual within the company responsible for those tasks has chosen to live.  None of the Northfield models are made en masses like Eastman or Kentucky.  Would you feel the same if he/she did the same tasks in Portugal or Peru?
> 
> Judge the builder and instrument by how well it suits your needs and the budget, not where its being made.  Ive seen some pretty rough looking and sounding instruments come out of luthier-built shops located in the US.  I wouldnt buy them over a Northfield.


Please don't judge me, on my choice to buy by my criteria, thanks.
This is a major large buy in our budget, and it's taken very serious with the choices we make

If I have a choice, I personalty choose to buy American made by American co., but have no judgements on anyone that wishes to buy them. If you like them, don't mind the china thing, by all means, buy one or two or more.

There are so many American made ones out there.
I don't think I'll have any trouble finding quality and not "rough looking and sounding" ones you wrote of.

Thanks again to all who have offered names for me to look into!
Very informative and helping me make a decision, while I build my cash pile for this expenditure.

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## doc holiday

> colorado_al on KC area
> Soooooo helpful! Thanks.....
> I bought a Martin Guitar, had Gibson Mandolin worked on, Gibson guitar worked on, all at mass street
> love the place! I'm close to Lawrence
> on the KC ones I will definitely check them out...


Jim Baggett (owner of Mass St Music)is an incredibly knowledgeable man as well being a nice guy.  He won't steer you wrong.

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## Bob Clark

Hi Treidm,

I just had Mike Black do a build for me.  I also have a flat-top Terry Majewski of Crystal Forest built (I bought it new but it was not specifically built for me).  It is a real treat to be able to have one specifically built for you, like my interaction with Mike.  It is also a treat to be able to speak directly with a builder even if it is not a 'built for you' deal.  In fact, Terry and I have kept in touch for years now.

If that is what makes you happy, go for it.  I probably will again one day.  It really does add to the experience of getting a new instrument, at least for me.

Be aware, though, that there is often a waiting line before your build starts.  Once you decide on a builder, as you are nearing piling up all the cash, but before you are quite there, speak with the builder and get on the waiting list.  It will be limit the time you will ultimately be waiting.

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treidm

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## treidm

> If you aren’t looking for a strickly “Gibson” toned instrument, it might be of interest to look at Tyler White, of “White Mandolins”.


I will absolutely check him out!

Very good question, as I never mentioned the type of sound or music it will be played in.

I prefer tone bars over x-braced
I prefer F-holes over round or oval
I prefer A-style, due to cost of F's [But F-style would be great]
I prefer NOT having gold colored tailpiece or tuning pegs
I prefer NOT having a lot of fancy inlays
I prefer Varnish finish
I prefer having a pick-guard

I would like having excellent bottom end, deep, and woody, very good to excellent mids and good to very good highs.

We play:
Bluegrass, Folk, Folk Rock, Blues and Original music that we or friends have written

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## treidm

> Hi Treidm,
> 
> I just had Mike Black do a build for me.  I also have a flat-top Terry Majewski of Crystal Forest built (I bought it new but it was not specifically built for me).  It is a real treat to be able to have one specifically built for you, like my interaction with Mike.  It is also a treat to be able to speak directly with a builder even if it is not a 'built for you' deal.  In fact, Terry and I have kept in touch for years now.
> 
> If that is what makes you happy, go for it.  I probably will again one day.  It really does add to the experience of getting a new instrument, at least for me.
> 
> Be aware, though, that there is often a waiting line before your build starts.  Once you decide on a builder, as you are nearing piling up all the cash, but before you are quite there, speak with the builder and get on the waiting list.  It will be limit the time you will ultimately be waiting.


So glad you mentioned getting on list, just before I have cash ready. VERY good tips, Thank you!

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## Bill McCall

I've had two custom instruments built by folks who have been mentioned.  They will build and appoint an instrument exactly as you specify.  You just have to write the check to meet those specifications.

Handmade instruments do not get large economies of scale, so they are typically more expensive than 'the big boys'.

My guys were Audie Ratliff and Austin Clark.  Each instrument I have I am quite pleased with, A style and 2 point.

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MontanaMatt, 

treidm

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## George R. Lane

> I've been looking at the Blacks and like them. I will now look into  the Girouard & Pava. Thanks...
> I still will stay away from a dbl breasted co, that has many made in china. Again, it's our preference to buy from USA co. that makes them All in the USA. Plenty available for me to choose from. There will be plenty that can buy from northfield, just not me.  
> Thanks again for all the names for me to check out. VERY helpful!


Bruce Weber has started building again. You should call him and discuss what you are looking for. NFI

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Doc Ivory, 

MontanaMatt, 

treidm

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## pheffernan

> Jim Baggett (owner of Mass St Music)is an incredibly knowledgeable man as well being a nice guy.  He won't steer you wrong.


What mandolin(s) does Jim play?

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lflngpicker

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## Jesse Kinman

I second Eric Hanson on Tyler White’s mandolins, but he currently has over a two year wait last I heard.

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## Br1ck

I personally would be wary of commissioning a custom build. First, the wait. Second, no telling what you get will be exactly what you want. Not saying they won't be really good, but think about it. All those nice instruments hanging on the walls at Carter's were once someone's dream acquision. So I would just want to go to Nashville, play everything, and buy the one I liked the best.

One of them is bound to be the one. Maybe ordering an Ellis would be the right choice, maybe not. Sure, I'd like one, but who's to say the Heiden wouldn't have rocked my world. A bird in the hand......

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## Bill McCall

> I personally would be wary of commissioning a custom build. First, the wait. Second, no telling what you get will be exactly what you want. Not saying they won't be really good, but think about it. All those nice instruments hanging on the walls at Carter's were once someone's dream acquision. So I would just want to go to Nashville, play everything, and buy the one I liked the best.
> ......


And thats the crux of the issue, finding an existing instrument with the right sound and playability to show up at a store near you  versus ordering one based on the makers existing body of work and your specified playing characteristics.  At least you know you'll get something that fits your hands as you want.  But of course you could find the right sound and change the fingerboard (radius/flat) but you couldn't make it wider or narrower, at least easily.  Not to mention the neck profile.

Probably no longer wait to order than to have one show up at a store with the right characteristics.

No guarantees either way.

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lflngpicker

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## pheffernan

> I personally would be wary of commissioning a custom build. First, the wait. Second, no telling what you get will be exactly what you want. Not saying they won't be really good, but think about it. All those nice instruments hanging on the walls at Carter's were once someone's dream acquision. So I would just want to go to Nashville, play everything, and buy the one I liked the best.


My notion is that I only custom order an instrument if it doesn't otherwise exist in nature and would show up in the classifieds with a little patience. Want a true blacktop A2-z? Call Mike Black. Crave a modern Alrite flattop? Contact Andy Poe. Otherwise, wait.  :Coffee:

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lflngpicker

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## Br1ck

I can see now that the only way out is to buy a really good mandolin at a well stocked store and play it while you wait for the custom build. Then keep them both.

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Jesse Kinman, 

John Soper, 

MontanaMatt, 

treidm

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## lflngpicker

> I can see now that the only way out is to buy a really good mandolin at a well stocked store and play it while you wait for the custom build. Then keep them both.


Br1ck, This is the fool proof plan, right here!  :Laughing:

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## fatt-dad

if you want to temporarily cure MAS, order a mandolin with a 2-yr wait.

f-d

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John Soper, 

lflngpicker, 

Papawooly

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## JEStanek

Silver Angel is Ken Ratcliff. Website.

I think you should expect many small shop builders to be at similar prices to  the bigger production builders in terms of price for similar quality and appointments.  They want to eat, too.  If want a builder that sounds like an X or Y or Z, you should likely purchase from X or Y or Z.  I've had two custom builds and had great experiences.  It was fun to interact and feel like I was involved in the process.

You can search the Builder Archive here by state. Both of mine were built out of the country (Canada - Brian Dean and Australia - Jack Spira).

I think before you really get to awash in various builder recommendations, you may want to define your requirements some more for what you're after.  So far all I know you're after is a carved mandolin with ff holes.

Jamie

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## Br1ck

> if you want to temporarily cure MAS, order a mandolin with a 2-yr wait.
> 
> f-d


I have found this to be a great way to get more instruments. I had lived happily with one nice guitar. I bought another in need of a lot of work. My luthier was backed up a year. In that year I bought two more guitars. Once I decided one wasn't enough, getting more was all I thought about.

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lflngpicker

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## MontanaMatt

I discovered a way to affect the rate of time...
When I ordered my last custom mando, I was told that the wait would be over a year...time stood still.
After three months, I got a update that most of the construction was done, ZAP...I zoomed forward in time like a spaceship with warp drive!

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lflngpicker

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## treidm

> I think before you really get to awash in various builder recommendations, you may want to define your requirements some more for what you're after.  So far all I know you're after is a carved mandolin with ff holes.
> Jamie


In previous post I put....

I prefer tone bars over x-braced
I prefer F-holes over round or oval
I prefer A-style, due to cost of F's [But F-style would be great]
I prefer NOT having gold colored tailpiece or tuning pegs
I prefer NOT having a lot of fancy inlays
I prefer Varnish finish
I prefer having a pick-guard

I would like having excellent bottom end, deep, and woody, very good to excellent mids and good to very good highs.

We play:
Bluegrass, Folk, Folk Rock, Blues and Original music that we or friends have written

Please help me in knowing what types of things I should add, to help?
Thanks....

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## JEStanek

Oops. Missed that post. _mea culpa_.  That's a good list.

I think a lot of that many of the builders you see participating and posting photos of their instruments can meet. His web site is a bit out of date in this facebook age the facebook page for Old Wave Mandolins is a good representation.  Bill can certainly get the hardware and tone specs for you. I feel his mandolins are very well built and lively.  I've had a chance to play a few.

One spec I didn't notice, is neck profile, to you like them smaller or clubbier, V or D or C chaped?

Jamie

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treidm

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## Joe Mendel

Paul Schnieder builds some great mandolins too. His brand is Summit. http://www.summitmandolins.com/index.html

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treidm

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## soliver

> I would like having excellent bottom end, deep, and woody, very good to excellent mids and good to very good highs.


You really ought to look at Ken Ratcliff's Silverangel Mandolins, as mentioned above. I recently put my hands on another Cafe member's SA and it was so rich and full and deep while maintaining a great quality in the mids and highs,... just a SUPER instrument, and I do believe his prices are very doable. He has an "Econo A model" that is only "Econo" in that it has no binding on the back... Otherwise it is just as Heirloom quality as his non-"Econo" models. He starts these models at $1250.... a steal IMHO. I plan to order one in the next month or so.

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treidm

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## treidm

> One spec I didn't notice, is neck profile, to you like them smaller or clubbier, V or D or C chaped?
> Jamie


Very good thought, thank you.

I have large hands with fairly long slender fingers.
The Gibson I play is 1952 A-40. It is very flat fingerboard with 1-1/8" nut (I think). never really thought about neck profile, but I need to understand and learn the pros and cons of each. I also play a Washburn F5 that has radiused fingerboard with 1-1/16" nut
And of course friends mandolins or others at stores. The two I play feel totally different in hand and one is faster for lead, the other isnt as fast but more comfortable in lower register and chords and chops. Guess I need to start searching for info on neck profile advice...

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## fatt-dad

Hi Triedm,

I pretty much started on an old Kay.  Then I got an Aria Pro II f-model (narrow nut) and a Gibson A3 (1-1/4 nut).  I'd take my f-model to jams.  I did enjoy and practiced a lot on my a3 though.  That was all like 33 years ago.  There was a spell of kids in diapers, then I returned to playing.  I bought a few, "Made in Japan" solid-body mandolins and sold them in time.

Through all that I spent my first real money (early-internet) on a Flatiron A5-1 (1984?) and then a Stiver A5, both with 1-1/8 in nuts.  Finally, in good time, I ordered two mandolins with 1-3/16ths in nut.  I like them!  Main reason I no longer have my Stiver and Flatiron mandolins - both great instruments!

You can get mandolins custom made with 1-3/16ths in nut width.  Factory versions are available through Collings, maybe others - I haven't checked.

Both of my custom mandolins have radius fretboards.  My Gibson does not.  I find it easy to adapt, but I'm no pro!  I'm just a dude having fun!

Enjoy the hunt!

f-d

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treidm

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## Mike Arakelian

> If you happen to remember his name, sounds very interesting with carvings and art. would like to see photos of some of his work.
> thanks for all the names, I've jotted them all down.


His name is Ken Ratliff.

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treidm

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## Br1ck

One aspect of Ken's expertise is his ability to realistically distress a mandolin. Slight or extreme, his distressing is remarkable. My A is slightly reliced and looks like a well taken care of mandolin from the twenties.

They do sound great. I've not played another brand that captured the low end warmth of a SA, while still retaining the highs.

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treidm

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## colorado_al

Here's a used Mike Black A5 you might be interested in for $2600
https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/128973#128973


I still think the best buy for his work is the Bradford Fret Shop Hawthorn A5 which are built by Mike Black. New for $1900 with James tailpiece and fiberglass case as well.
https://www.bfstrings.com/store/p101..._Mandolin.html

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treidm

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## rowka

> His name is Ken Ratliff.


His name is Ken Ratcliff
Audie Ratliff is another builder.

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## Marcus CA

Take a few days and head over to Nashville.  Both Carter’s and Gruhn’s have used mandolins built by lots of the builders raved about on the Cafe.  I got an incredible education there last summer, and it was tons of fun!

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## slimt

Hope Im allowed to chime in here...   I have this No. 2 build..  Hes only done 2...   but from what Ive listened to and Played on this Moon..   its a outstanding mandolin.. fit and French polish finish and attention to detail is very well done... 

Sota Mori designer and Builder of this mandolin..  built in 2016...  not sure when another will be done...

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## MontanaMatt

> Hope Im allowed to chime in here...   I have this No. 2 build..  Hes only done 2...   but from what Ive listened to and Played on this Moon..   its a outstanding mandolin.. fit and French polish finish and attention to detail is very well done... 
> 
> Sota Mori designer and Builder of this mandolin..  built in 2016...  not sure when another will be done...


That there is a unique axe!

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## slimt

> That there is a unique axe!


Thanks.. its a cool piece..

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## treidm

Thanks to all for interesting opinions
I've been reading, studying and thinking a lot about it

I had decided to look into having a Silverangel A made, so went to web site and did the Contact Silverangel tab
It says, fill out the following form and I’ll get back to you

So I did and waited a week with no reply
So, sent another message and again waited over a week and still NO reply

I just sent a third message and will see if he contacts me, this time
Is he still making them, or out of town or does my breath stink?
Anyone know if he is still around?

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## Blues Healer

Ken posted in the classifieds a couple of weeks ago.

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## treidm

Am I allowed to post a URL to a reverb ad and ask you all opinions?

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## Timbofood

Not everyone has enough hours in a week to build and answer email very promptly. I’d just relax and dream of your new toy!
I do understand the frustration with response time, just try dealing with an insurance company!!!

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## geoffa

> I just sent a third message and will see if he contacts me, this time
> Is he still making them, or out of town or does my breath stink?
> Anyone know if he is still around?


Sent you a PM with Ken's email address. He is still making mandolins. I'm considering having one built by him too and we've been emailing back and forth a bit.

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## mandroid

One at a time name dropping aside , the site has had a builder's data base you missed  finding.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/builders.html

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## JeffD

> Larger manufacturing companies that one might assume would have a much larger overhead that they pass on to consumer and/or brand recognition that many times require you to pay a little for the name.


That seems counter intuitive to me. That larger overhead is spread over many many more instruments, while a small builder, even admitting a smaller overhead, has to cover a much larger percentage of it with each instrument. The smaller builder is, I think, more likely to do many of the building tasks by hand, for many and various reasons, which is time consuming. In addition those parts and pieces a luthier doesn't make but purchases really add up. The small builder doesn't, I would guess, have the purchasing power to get a gazzilion tail pieces at a discount.

My direct experience kicking tires and checking prices leads me to believe the that custom builders are not consistently less expensive than the "big boys", if anything, the opposite. Comparing quality to quality, that is.

The reason to go with a small luthier custom build, it seems to me, is to get something not available elsewhere. It is not necessarily (or even typically IMO) the way to go to save money.

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DougC

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## Br1ck

To me supporting a small builder is in a great part fueled by the desire to support old school craftsmanship. 

Sure would be nice to have one of the unique designs from Sorenson. 

I did not commission my Silverangel, bought it used, but enjoy having a luthier built instrument. So much skill is required.

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Timbofood

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## Mandobar

I think it all depends on the builder.  I don’t think you can generalize based on categories.

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## rowka

Ken at Silverangel had posted on the cafe that his web site has been giving him troubles with the contact function.  Take advantage of his email provided by geoffa. My experience is that Ken responds within a day to direct emails.

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## treidm

> The reason to go with a small luthier custom build, it seems to me, is to get something not available elsewhere. It is not necessarily (or even typically IMO) the way to go to save money.


It never was about "just the money", I was thinking, getting best bang for buck.
If quality was same on 2 instruments, but one is cheaper in price, I don't mind getting better bang for buck.
And that goes for my vehicles, TV's or any other item I'm buying unless there is a reason I support a particular brand.
And I do like supporting smaller businesses also

And as far as getting something not available to others, I really don't care if everyone has the same as me or not, as long as I like it, it's cool...

I just want quality, American made, and the deep dark sound I like. If I can save a little by buying from a good quality small maker, I would like that. Although it looks like big boy Gibson may need help. But that's another subject
I can't afford a Gilchrist or Monteleone, but Silverangel and a few other small makers. are in my range
As long as their quality is up to par, and I suspect they are, and they are cheaper than say, Gibson, I may go with the smaller maker

BUT there never are absolutes in this. I could suddenly decide I HAVE to have something. It just happens sometimes, then you can throw all the previous logic, out the door...

You can still find something nobody else has for yourself and spend whatever you want. I won't knock you, I congratulate you for getting what you want and wish you well.

In my real life music has always been an inclusive culture to me. It brings people of different ideals, races, stations in life etc. together. Where we can enjoy this wonderful thing together....   :Smile:

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## treidm

> Sent you a PM with Ken's email address. He is still making mandolins. I'm considering having one built by him too and we've been emailing back and forth a bit.


Thank you Geoffa!
I sent him an email
Reid

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## Kevin Winn

Can't believe no one has mentioned Will Kimble in this thread...

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DougC

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## kyken

> Thank you Geoffa!
> I sent him an email
> Reid


Got it treidm. answered. Did u get mine? Having problems with my web site. I'm not up on high tech stuff, sorry, pm me if you want., that's no problem.

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## JeffD

> I was thinking, getting best bang for buck.
> If quality was same on 2 instruments, but one is cheaper in price, I don't mind getting better bang for buck.


I agree. But boy that is a hard thing to determine. I tend towards some of the comments above that one cannot for sure say that one category (large manufacturer) is more for the dollar or less that the other (small builder). It likely depends on the instrument. 

The very best bang for the buck is a previously owned instrument. 




> And as far as getting something not available to others, I really don't care if everyone has the same as me or not, as long as I like it, it's cool...


I agree also. I am not so interested in what others think of my choice of instruments, or think of me owning them. My angle was that there are a lot of really creative luthiers out there, who have different ideas and different takes, without compromising quality, and the courage to break away from "the standard". I think this is more easily found with the small build individual luthiers. 

A typical example would Joe Campanella, whose mandolin designs really really appeal to me. As soon as I can put enough nickles in a row...

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DougC, 

Drew Streip

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## DougC

The cafe has a lot of discussion about neck profiles and other things to consider. Personally I don't like strap buttons attached to the heel. But a trip to a store with mandolins is quite an education. And you will need to know what you want before trying a custom build. 
It would be really cool to have one built to to my own 'specs' and to develop a friendship with a luthier. 

But I have a different outlook you might consider. That is that a used instrument, especially one from a maker that has a reputation for high value when bought from a place that is also highly respected is 'hand's down' the best. 

You can meet and make friends with people on the classifieds at Mandolin Cafe. For example, I bought a Collings mandola from the guys at the Mandolin Store and I feel like _I supported some great guys and I bought_ _a outstanding__ instrument at a great price._ 

This is just one example. There are other really fine stores around the country. (And you will find the best here...)

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## treidm

> Got it treidm. answered. Did u get mine? Having problems with my web site. I'm not up on high tech stuff, sorry, pm me if you want., that's no problem.


Yes, I got your email, thanks..

I will email you and let you know what I'm looking for..

, Reid

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## ollaimh

when i see a great second hand instrument at a "steal" price, like a model i ordered and paid for directly, i never regret paying top dollar. great lutheirs are what people like us need to make our music and they are worth every penny.  (but i will pick up a second one if that happens). and i wheel and deal often in the big company made instruments.


i did just do a trade locally for a bill davis artist model A.  it sings. i normally like the round sound hole, but these f holes have both chop and bright bright projection for my jigs and reels.  so i vote for bill davis.


however sometimes when a great builder is not well known you can get a great instrument before they become famous, and it may be a lot cheaper.  in guitars i bought a ted thompson T 1 with brazillian rosewood back and sides and engleman spruce top before he got better known, and it was $1900 with tax case and all.  but i special ordered one of his jumbos a few years ago and paid a lot more, because his instrument gave me decades of joy and i always wanted a jumbo and he deserves every penny, but i recently traded for another thompson jumbo!!!

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## Old Growth

Matt Ruhland fits this category. Not yet well known, great mandolins, exceptional value.

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DataNick

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## soliver

Somehow, I double posted ... see below vvvv

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## soliver

Treidm, Ken Ratcliff has had trouble with his website; particularly the contact portion. He's just finished up the mandolin I custom ordered and is shipping it out tomorrow. I will pm you his email address so you can contact him directly. His production time is a very bearable 3-4 weeks.. for all intents and purpose I will be receiving my mandolin exactly 4 weeks to the day I ordered it... at a very affordable price too. Ken works very hard and very fast!

Here's the thread on the build: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...lverangel-Fray

Custom made "Econo A" model:
Cedar top
Soft Maple 1 piece back and sides 
Gold colored hardware
K&K Mandolin Twin installed
Ebony radiused fretboard 
Speed Neck
Lightly distressed "Old Violin" finish.
Excited to receive it soon!

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## George R. Lane

> Treidm, Ken Ratcliff has had trouble with his website; particularly the contact portion. He's just finished up the mandolin I custom ordered and is shipping it out tomorrow. I will pm you his email address so you can contact him directly. His production time is a very bearable 3-4 weeks.. for all intents and purpose I will be receiving my mandolin exactly 4 weeks to the day I ordered it... at a very affordable price too. Ken works very hard and very fast!
> 
> Here's the thread on the build: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...lverangel-Fray
> 
> Custom made "Econo A" model:
> Cedar top
> Soft Maple 1 piece back and sides 
> Gold colored hardware
> K&K Mandolin Twin installed
> ...


Check post #95. He and Ken have contacted each other.

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## soliver

Ha! Missed that!... my bad, lol

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## Bill Kammerzell

> Am I allowed to post a URL to a reverb ad and ask you all opinions?


If you go to the classifieds Mando Mutt has a brand new Silverangel El Toro for sale at a nicely reduced price. He has always gotten right back to me. NFI.

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## Classicalcomp

I own a franzke mandola. Ill say the quality is excellent and the guy is really nice also

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## treidm

Thanks to all for the great responses and informative reading!

I have reduced my A-Style choices, so far, to...
"In no particular order"

Black
Pava
Silverangel
Girouard
Sorensen

Any comments pro or con are still welcome on my choices  :Smile:

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## Phil Goodson

> If you happen to remember his name, sounds very interesting with carvings and art. would like to see photos of some of his work.
> thanks for all the names, I've jotted them all down.


Silver Angels are made by Ken Ratcliff in Kentucky.(link)

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## pheffernan

> Any comments pro or con are still welcome on my choices


All are fine builders with established reputations. I have never played a Sorensen or a Girouard, but I have owned both a Silverangel and a Pava and still have an oval and a GBOM from Mike Black. Were I in your position, I'd probably buy the used Black A5 from Vintage Mandolin Headquarters and have Mike service it as he's local to you. However, if your primary objectives are "dark and deep" tonality and "bang for your buck" economics, then I would think that Silverangel would be the best match.

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## treidm

> Were I in your position, I'd probably buy the used Black A5 from Vintage Mandolin Headquarters and have Mike service it as he's local to you.


Glad you brought this up...
Having the maker local would be a major advantage!
That could outweigh some other thoughts...

But buying used...
Hopefully the maker honors warranty past 1st owner to some degree
Like comes unglued or some big problem because of materials or assembly etc.
I talked to one that does, but some say to original owner only

----------


## pheffernan

> Glad you brought this up...
> Having the maker local would be a major advantage!
> That could outweigh some other thoughts...
> 
> Hopefully the maker honors warranty past 1st owner to some degree
> I talked to one that does, but some don't


IIRC, the label inside my Black A2-z says that the instrument’s warranty is for the lifetime of the builder, not the original owner.

edited to add: Ken Ratcliff generously retopped my Silverangel A5 for free even though I was not its original owner.

----------


## treidm

> IIRC, the label inside my Black A2-z says that the instrument’s warranty is for the lifetime of the builder, not the original owner.
> 
> edited to add: Ken Ratcliff generously retopped my Silverangel A5 for free even though I was not its original owner.


So thankful for your response!

This helps with my thoughts of Black, because of locality of maker and myself.
Lawrence KS is about 45 minutes from Leavenworth KS, where I am. My wife and I both like Lawrence. We have most work done on our instruments at Mass Street in Lawrence
, Reid

----------


## pheffernan

> So thankful for your response! This helps with my thoughts of Black, because of locality of maker and myself. Lawrence KS is about 45 minutes from Leavenworth KS, where I am. My wife and I both like Lawrence. We have most work done on our instruments at Mass Street in Lawrence, Reid


I definitely think that there is added value in having access to the builder so that he can periodically look over the instrument. I also think that there is some extra cache in that Mike builds his A5's modeled after the Mrs. Griffith Loar. My Hester A5 is of the same design, and it is an absolut cannon.

----------


## Papalobo

regarding custom instrument pricing vs. the Big Boys .  Due to economy of scale alone direct competition is not even an option. 
I've been building going on 20 years and price and profit haven't been part of the equation yet. My experience has shown folks buy custom to get what they can't anywhere else . That always seems to be their prime motivation .

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## treidm

> I've been building going on 20 years and price and profit haven't been part of the equation yet. My experience has shown folks buy custom to get what they can't anywhere else . That always seems to be their prime motivation .


Hmmm, sorry you say always, when that's not my motivation at all. Getting something different has not entered into my thoughts regarding this possible purchase any whatsoever...

The advantage of a new build opposed to a used one, would allow you to see if certain things could be done. maybe you want a wider nut or a different tailpiece etc.., But I've never thought getting what no one else has as a prime motivation

Wouldn't bother me at all if everyone had one just like mine. As long as I like it, then it's cool with me...

Reid

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## Rashi63

> If you go to the classifieds Mando Mutt has a brand new Silverangel El Toro for sale at a nicely reduced price. He has always gotten right back to me. NFI.


Not anymore....in my hands now and it is beautiful!!

----------

