# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  Vegan mandolins?

## robertbieber

I'm looking to upgrade to a better mandolin (I'm looking in the $450-500-ish range) and it seems that just about every mandolin I'm able to find in that price range uses either mother-of-pearl inlay, abalone dots, or a bone nut.  Is anyone aware of a builder that makes a decent mandolin in the range I'm looking without any animal-based parts?

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## Mandobart

Better check if the glue uses animal by-products as well (they don't call it hide glue cuz its hard to see :Wink: ).  Most mandos in that range are using plastic or other non-bone material for the nut (Tusq, corian, etc.).

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## robertbieber

Yeah, it's usually the inlay that's a problem, but it seems like whenever I do find one without MOP inlay they're using a bone nut.  I think hide glue has mostly fallen out of favor, but I'll be sure to check.

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## Bill Snyder

Hide glue is used extensively when you get to higher priced instruments but not much if at all in the price range you mention.

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## SGraham

> I think hide glue has mostly fallen out of favor


With who? I guess I hadn't heard this...

Regarding the bone nut--you can always change it for a plastic one. You could have a luthier do it so you don't have to touch it.

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## Mandobart

Hide glue is not typically used on factory produced mandolins.  However, it is not the only glue made with animal products.  It may be difficult to trace down what the contents of the glue used in the Asian imports are.  Also if there are any laminates used vs solid wood there's a chance animal products were used to bond the layers together.  Inlays can be removed and filled or replaced with a lighter wood if you like.  As stated above, nuts can be replaced with something non-animal related.  So I guess some questions could be does it have to absolutely _be_ vegan or just _look_ vegan?  Are you willing to buy an instrument that contains animal products and then replace things like inlays and nuts?  The cost of these mods may make you want to consider having a builder make a truly vegan model from the get-go.  But it will certainly exceed $500.

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## JEStanek

Mid Missouri / Big Muddy.  Flat top and back with minimal accoutrements. You could call Mike Dulak and specify exactly what you wanted.  If you're looking for a carved top/back instrument you may be a bit out of luck.  Are there issues with shellac finishes made from beetle excrement?  With the availability of computer cut, very thin veneers of shell that may not even be inlaid on a headstock (thus lowering the cost) this is a way for inexpensive instruments to look more expensive.

Jamie

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## robertbieber

Thanks for the info, everyone.  For a little more background, I'm contemplating on taking my local guitar store up on their trade-up policy, so I'd need something straightforward to have ordered, I'm afraid having custom modifications made is out.  If I can't find anything that's good for me stock, I'll just stick with what I have for now and wait until I've got the money for a custom order down the road.

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## MikeEdgerton

To be honest I don't think the inlay of the Loar mandolins is real shell. I can't vouch for the dots.

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## norm351

Some bone nuts, and bridge saddles, are made of deer antler, last I checked they drop those every year,, and some animals die of natural causes...just a thought., what ever I like real bone, and pearl..

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## Bertram Henze

Should be easier to be picky for a mandolinist than for a violinist...

But nobody asked the trees for their consent, for that matter. 
Nature is a live thing, and we cannot build anything without taking something from nature. The difference lies in the manner of our taking and how we give something in return.

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Jackgaryk, 

jshane, 

LongBlackVeil, 

Rob Zamites

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## Tim2723

The Ovation line of instruments uses no animal products whatsoever, and barely any wood (all of which are common species and renewable).  The inlays are wood, the nut and saddle synthetic.  It's hard to think of such a non-traditional instrument as being 'green' in any way, but they are surprisingly so.  The plastic is recyclable.

There are also some carbon fiber instruments out there that I believe use no living (or previously living) materials at all.

A conundrum occurs if we consider that the impact of producing the synthetics can be far more significant to the environment than using, for instance, a bit of fossil ivory or a discarded shell.

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## Bertram Henze

> There are also some carbon fiber instruments out there that I believe use no living (or previously living) materials at all.


Carbon fiber, yes, or aluminum:






> A conundrum occurs if we consider that the impact of producing the synthetics can be far more significant to the environment than using, for instance, a bit of fossil ivory or a discarded shell.


I thought of that, too. After all, nature works by discarding and recycling materials all the time, life is not dying but constantly changing form. The impact of our hightech materials which cannot be part of that is not to be underestimated.
Human communities living most close to nature have always been recognised by making the utmost use of every part of an animal they killed. And even in urban civilizations like ours, no cow is killed just to make mandolin saddles and nuts, no horse dies just to make a fiddle bow. All we must avoid is cruelty and waste.

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## Ben Milne

I'll take a natural organic piece of byproduct over petrochemically produced piece wherever I can... :Cow:  
Each to their own.

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## MikeEdgerton

Let's all attempt to stay away from the philosophical discussion on this. Make all the product suggestions you want to.

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## journeybear

Hear, hear! The OP simply wishes to use products that function satisfactorily while eschewing all animal-derived materials, regardless of how they were obtained. If I understand the vegan philosophy correctly, it doesn't matter whether the item in question came from an animal that was killed for it, was taken without harming the animal, or was found lying around, its life long ago having left it. They just want nothing to do with it. The OP is entitled to his beliefs and just wants some advice. Brave of him, coming to us for advice, knowing he might well get a few tweaks in the process.  :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

I think you can easily get a maker to make you whatever you want with whatever materials you prefer. The big problem, as i see it, is your price range limitation. Anything you buy in that price range will be pre-made and therefore using the std materials out there. As noted above the main problem areas where you would find animal products are the bone for the nut or bridge top and the pearl for the inlay. Only the cheapest of mandolins will have plastic nuts and will not sound all that good anyway. 

Most Asian instruments will use bone and pearl which readily appeal to most buyers and are very available in the countries of manufacture. You can replace those parts, of course, but the damage will already have been done.

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## Cheryl Watson

You can have your luthier change out the bone nut for a delrin nut.  Maybe the problem would be that most mandolins have pearl dots on the fretboard and some kind of pearl in the headstock.  I would think that it would be hard to find one with plastic inlay but I could be wrong.  Best of luck in your search.

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## Tim2723

Then it appears the task is to identify mandolins costing $450 - $500 that are assembled without bone, horn, ivory, or shell and are constructed with synthetic adhesives.  I believe the Ovation Celebrity or Applause mandolins still fit that bill.  I can think of no other except to have an instrument specially constructed, which might easily exceed the expected price range.

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## PJ Doland

As far as I understand, oysters don't have a central nervous system. Even Peter Singer said it's perfectly ethical to eat them (in _Animal Liberation_, no less). That means that mother of pearl is probably something you shouldn't worry about.

Just avoid abalone, leather, and bone and you should be good-to-go.

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## Tim2723

As I see it, assuming I understand the application of Vegan philosophy to this subject, the problem stems largely from the budget imposed.  If the OP had asked for a vegan mandolin under $3000 the answer would be easier.  An instrument could be custom built with all appropriate measures considered.  It's finding one for $500 that presents a problem.

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## brunello97

> As far as I understand, oysters don't have a central nervous system. Even Peter Singer said it's perfectly ethical to eat them (in _Animal Liberation_, no less). That means that mother of pearl is probably something you shouldn't worry about.
> 
> Just avoid abalone, leather, and bone and you should be good-to-go.


I like oysters and mandolins, both.  The OP has raised an interesting question.  I hope he follows up with his own research with builders and manufacturers and is able to come back with an informed report.  For me, tortoise shell and ivory are some of the grimmer reminders of some of our earlier sensibilities.  Can't turn that clock back, only move forward with a new set of values. Knowing what some options might be is helpful.  Hopefully Ovations (or aluminum) aren't our only solutions.

Good post.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I agree with Tim that to stay in that price range, prob the only instruments out there not using animal products would be the Ovations. You could easily swap out existing animal parts (Delrin for bone or wood for pearl inlay dots) but if your aim is to avoid using animal parts -- well,  those were used already.

It is an interesting exercise to think within these restrictions. Of course, luthiers these days are under many restrictions (see Gibson's latest wood woes). It would be quite easy to create a new mandolin using completely non-animal parts but, once again, a luthier would prob have to charge much more than $450-500. 

Also, the question is how far do you want to go with the vegan restrictions? I may be mistaken here but I believe that there are some plastics that are made with milk products. You would have to research which ones those are. And others have mentioned glues used to bind laminated wood esp in China.

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## Tim2723

That's how I view it: An interesting exercise.  With the possible exception of the Ovations I think the answer to the question is simply 'No' and that his plan to save for a custom instrument is his only reasonable course.

And for the record, I'm not 100% certain that the Ovations fit the bill.  I believe the adhesives are entirely synthetic, but I don't know that for a fact.

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## Tim2723

> There are also some carbon fiber instruments out there that I believe use no living (or previously living) materials at all..


Actually, I take that back.  It's entirely possible that some of the carbon used in those instruments might well have come from a previously living thing.  Consider that your own body might contain an atom of carbon that was once part of a fern in the Cretaceous era.

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## Jim Rowland

I have a nice Celerly mando which might fill the bill...if I remove the ivory nut and the Rhino Horn bridge.Changeing the strings is a hassel,though.
Jim

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## Jim Garber

Tim, if you want to go that far, even your plastic mandolins were made largely from petroleum which could have been a product of animal carcasses from millions of years ago. In all honesty, I doubt our OP is willing to go that far but it is a very interesting problem.

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## fatt-dad

I think this is an interesting post.  I just have nothing quite to contribute. . .

Inlay materials seem easy enough to avoid.  Binding can be wood.  That dang glue though. . .

I met a guy that used CA for gluing.  That stuff may be vegan?

For your budget, you may want to call Big Muddy and see about ordering a mandolin with wooden inlay (rather than shell materials) and ask about the glue.  Nothing wrong with an ebony nut either. My Flatiron 1N (pancake) started out with a wooden nut and it was good enough for me for quite a few years.

f-d

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## JEStanek

In an essentially closed system, our little blue ball spinning through the void, we/it are all recycled bits from other bits and likely from living things.  That argument is a ridiculous extension.  Short of going with the Big Muddy/Mid Mo I can't think of another in your price range that doesn't have pearl/shell.

Jamie

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## brunello97

> In an essentially closed system, our little blue ball spinning through the void, we/it are all recycled bits from other bits and likely from living things.  That argument is a ridiculous extension.  Short of going with the Big Muddy/Mid Mo I can't think of another in your price range that doesn't have pearl/shell.
> 
> Jamie


Right on, Jamie. Like the Temptations said: It's a Ball of Confusion.

Save up un poco más dinero and go Big Muddy.  Satisfaction guaranteed.

Mick

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## wildpikr

[QUOTE=Bertram Henze;1064501]Carbon fiber, yes, or aluminum:





I wouldn't want to put that under my chin after it sat a while in the sun... :Smile:

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## MikeEdgerton

In thinking about this there are mandolins that historically could get part of the way there with no problems but they can't get all the way there. The 20's Martin Style A mandolins used clay dots on the fretboard, a decal or nothing on the headstock, and an ebony nut but I'm sure they were using hide glue for the construction. The Gibson F9 would cost more and would be fine as it didn't even have fretboard dots but they did use an inlay on the headstock. The Eastman mandolins used a fiber headstock inlay but still had the inlaid dots and some had bone nuts. Other than the Ovation (and I'm taking that one on faith, I've spent very little time with them), this one is hard to come up with an answer on from the get go at the price point. I agree with fatt-dad, it is an interesting question.

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## SGraham

Maybe the OP's scruples will require him to stay with his present low-priced mandolin. Sort of a vegan badge-of-honor.

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## Ed Goist

What about getting a nice kit, and then discarding and swapping out any items that are suspect?
I'd say this is your best bet. Plus, by building the instrument yourself, you will not be left with gray areas or questions about the glue, etc.
Good luck. Keep us posted.

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## journeybear

I wonder if there are builders in this price range who would be willing to produce an instrument with no fretboard dots or headstock inlay? That's actually _less_ work. Then you'd just have the nut (and the glue) to worry about, and it seems some reasonable alternatives have been proposed.

As a proud owner of a fine 1917 plain A, I will attest to its appearing a bit unadorned - ok, plain - and hope to have it inlaid someday so as to display _The Gibson_ proudly. Until then, its blank black appearance is the essence of simplicity.

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## MikeEdgerton

Questioning why someone feels the need to do this really doesn't fit into the nurturing nature of this commmunity.

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## MikeEdgerton

> What about getting a nice kit, and then discarding and swapping out any items that are suspect?
> I'd say this is your best bet. Plus, by building the instrument yourself, you will not be left with gray areas or questions about the glue, etc.
> Good luck. Keep us posted.


At this price point an excellent suggestion.

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## greg_tsam

Actually, finding a mandolin that is vegan friendly may be near impossible since anything with petroleum products (plastics) were once dinosaurs that eventually turned to oil and made into tuner knobs, nuts, saddles, materials for the case.  Maybe the Amish make something for that?

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## oldwave maker

Out of the stated price range, but some folks offer both the vegan and the lacto-vegetarian options......

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## Jim Garber

> Questioning why someone feels the need to do this really doesn't fit into the nurturing nature of this commmunity.


Actually, I think all the posters on this thread are honestly trying to figure out the solution to this problem. I don't see anyone not being nurturing. For me, it just seems like an interesting puzzle to work out as a community.

It is funny, but I also thought of a kit just as I noticed Ed's post. That might be the solution and within his price range. Excellent!

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## brunello97

> …. just as I noticed Ed's post. That might be the solution and within his price range. Excellent!


Well, there has been a bit of what I think you Yankees call snarkiness around the edges…

But leave it to Ed.  :Wink:   Good man, good idea.

Mick

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## MikeEdgerton

> Actually, I think all the posters on this thread are honestly trying to figure out the solution to this problem. I don't see anyone not being nurturing.


There are at least three that fall way outside that. Carry on.

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## MikeEdgerton

> Out of the stated price range, but some folks offer both the vegan and the lacto-vegetarian options......


I never noticed the UPC truss rod cover on the watermellon before. That's perfect.

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## JEStanek

Look at Howard Morris as well.  He can build you something with no inlay or no animal origin inlay dots for under $1000 in an archtop arch back instrument.

Jamie

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## John Flynn

I think that in the OP's price range, the good news is that the least expensive "ingredients" will have been used, which probably means plastic instead of animal. Even the MOP is likely to be actually, as the saying goes, "Mother of Toilet Seat." The bad news is that it may be hard to get an accurate accounting of what materials have been used, so you won't know for sure. In that range, the instruments will have been generally made to spec in Asia and the spec may not have included a breakdown of whether animal products were used. One approach I might take is to send emails to to the bigger brands in that price range and ask them. I'm thinking of Kentucky (Saga), etc. They might have enough control of their specs to be able to tell you. 

I also like the suggestion of building a kit. That way you know for sure what's gone into it, besides wood and metal.

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## fatt-dad

I think it's important to realize the vegan community (which I don't speak for in the least, but somewhat familiar) avoids animal husbandry and to the best of my knowledge the killing of animals (i.e., no husbandry in hunting).  As such buying a kit that relies on exploitation of animals (i.e., the MOP) would be no good, even if you threw away the MOP. I'd think plastics (or petroleum derivatives) would be o.k. for vegan principals.

I just don't know about glues.  I think the tuner buttons (all metal), binding (plastic, wood or other non-animal derivatives), and inlay (wood or stones) are easy to deal with.  It would require custom work though. I also think a factory order would be risky as who'd tell you about the glue?

We just need a builder to suggest effective adhesives that are not animal based.  Then again, Dr. Dave Cohen has a great mandolin that he's assembled with screws (back, top and neck joint), but there's glue in there for the fretboard, etc.

f-d

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## Jim Garber

> Look at Howard Morris as well.  He can build you something with no inlay or no animal origin inlay dots for under $1000 in an archtop arch back instrument.


IIRC Howard's flattops are around $600 and the carved tops are around $1000 -- much more than the OP price ceiling. Mike Dulak/Big Muddy is also in that same range for the flattops.

Perhaps the best kit for the OP would Don Kawalek's since he puts them together himself and can prob tell him what is involved. And the price is definitely in his range.

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## billkilpatrick

cigarbox mando' - 'nuff said

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## billkilpatrick

carbon fiber mando' - 'nuff(er) said:

http://new-mad.com/

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## PJ Doland

I understand the desire to keep philosophical concerns out of this thread, but they're really essential to getting a good (_and respectful_) response for the OP, for several reasons that come readily to mind:

Is the removal and replacement of parts made from animals on a ready-made instrument acceptable to the OP, as the original purchase contributes to the demand for the killing of animals (even if the parts are replaced)? Should kits be viewed the same way, even if the manufacturer is willing to ship the kit without the offending parts?

What constitutes an animal for the purposes of defining what needs to be avoided? It may seem like an odd question, but that was at the crux of my point about MOP and oysters, as some ethical vegetarians and vegans disagree with one another on this issue (due to an oyster's inability to feel pain).

And what of the use of animal products during the manufacturing process which do not become part of the actual instrument?

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## Ben Milne

The Epiphone Mandobird has a plastic nut, and the inlays are quite small and only listed as dot inlays, no mention of MOP... I would think plastic though I wonder how easy confirmation would be.

Perhaps the OP could email this guy to find out what instrument he plays.

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## JEStanek

Titebond wood glue is all synthetic wood glue.  It would work fine.  The kit from International Violin has no inlays and only plastic bits.  The challenge with that (and the fun if you're so inclined) is to build it.

Jamie

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## fatt-dad

Problem with the IV kit is the glue used in the partial assembly.  Same is true for the stew-mac kit, which is the kit I'd like to try one day.

f-d

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## MikeEdgerton

I don't see anything on *this* mandolin that should cause a problem (assuming the nut isn't bone) for the OP and it's in his price range.

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## Bob Clark

How about Gypsy's Music in Maryland.  I've never seen one of their instruments, but their prices seem quite reasonable, their work looks great, and judging from their web site, they seem like really cool people.  It might not be a bad idea for the OP to check with them.  I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be willing to work something out that would be acceptable to the OP.

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## MikeEdgerton

I think Walt builds those in Arizona now.

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## Bill Snyder

HE WANTS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HIS DEALERS TRADE-UP POLICY. I doubt anything but a factory built instrument is going to work for him.
Perhaps his dealer can get a Big Muddy.
Even cheap mandolins probably use real MOP fretboard dots (the IV kits have them) because MOP dots are really cheap.

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## robertbieber

Woo, this thread blew up.  I'll try to address everything that's come up, sorry if I miss something.

For starters, the Ovation and Mandobird were both good suggestions...but I already own them both.  I bought them both from a local guitar store that offers a 100% back trade-up policy as long as the new one is at least $100 more than the original, so I was contemplating trading up the Ovation (which I paid around $350 for, IIRC) for something more traditional.  Since it seems like pretty much the only factory-built options for me are the ones I already have, it looks like I'm just going to have to wait a couple more months until I have the money for a custom build.

Regarding oysters: they're probably not sentient, but I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I just view anything from kingdom animalia as off-limits.

Regarding discarded antlers, shells, and etc.: Technically not vegan, but not something I personally have a problem with.  Of course, realistically if I were to buy a bone nut from a factory the bone would come from a slaughterhouse, not a discarded pair of antlers, so the only way I'd ever feel comfortable with a "discarded" animal product part would be if it came from someone who could personally vouch for its origins.

Regarding buying non-vegan instruments and replacing parts: Another poster got it right, I'd still be uncomfortable with it because the purchase creates demand for the product.  Whether I actually use the product after buying it is immaterial.

Regarding carbon fiber mandolins: That's unbelievable, and I really want to see one some day.

Anyways, thanks for the responses everyone!  It looks like I'll be holding on to my Ovation for now, but I did get a really promising contact from a builder because of this thread, so hopefully that will work out well  :Smile:

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## John Flynn

A couple of people have mentioned carbon fiber. Some issues there:
> Way out of your price range
> Still may use a bone nut, some hide glue and real abalone for the inlay and dot markers

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## Bertram Henze

Many years ago, I used to experiment building my own instruments from aluminum parts bought in DIY shops. They all looked a bit like this old commercial. This might be another option for you - you don't even need glue, just screws.

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## billkilpatrick

overlooking the fact that an animal is engaged in the process, i think singing, whistling, tapping toes, etc., etc. might be the only 100% guaranteed option.

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## journeybear

> The Epiphone Mandobird has a plastic nut, and the inlays are quite small and only listed as dot inlays, no mention of MOP... I would think plastic though I wonder how easy confirmation would be.


Yeah, I thought of electrics too, though it seemed the OP is looking for an acoustic. But the MandoBird is definitely as animal-free as it gets. They actually could come with something like that movie disclaimer: _No animals were harmed in the making of this produc_t. Heck, mine is pretty darn _plant-free_, other than the neck. Just have to find out what glue is used to bind  the fretboard to the neck, unless it's one piece.





> Woo, this thread blew up.


Here to help.  :Wink:  And yakking it up is one of the things we do best.  :Smile:

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## billkilpatrick

> ... the MandoBird is definitely as animal-free as it gets. ...


apart from its name, of course.

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## greg_tsam

Hey Robert with all these requirements you sure don't make it easy, do ya?  Come to think of it, do you have a sister because I think I dated here!   :Mandosmiley:

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## journeybear

> ... the MandoBird is definitely as animal-free as it gets. ...





> apart from its name, of course.


Naturally. So to speak.  :Wink:

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## Paul Busman

> As far as I understand, oysters don't have a central nervous system. Even Peter Singer said it's perfectly ethical to eat them (in _Animal Liberation_, no less). That means that mother of pearl is probably something you shouldn't worry about.
> 
> Just avoid abalone, leather, and bone and you should be good-to-go.


No CNS in an abalone either which is a mollusk just like an oyster. If the OP is OK with oysters, abalone should not be a problem either.
As far as switching out existing animal derived parts, most vegans I've known wouldn't buy the product in the first place since spending money on a product with animal products encourages their use in general.  If the OP just doesn't want to use a mandolin with animal parts, then he has a lot more options since a bone nut etc is relatively easy to change.

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## Tim2723

> ...it looks like i'll be holding on to my ovation for now...


I win!!  :Laughing:

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## Ed Goist

Robert; good luck in your future search for an upgrade.
If you do decide to work with a builder at some point on a vegan mandolin, please be sure to create a thread about the build process so we can follow it.
Thanks for starting this informative and interesting thread. 
Again, best wishes.

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## Bob Clark

Hello Robert,

I think you started an important thread here.  Others have asked similar questions in the past, but this particular thread explored the options perhaps a bit more thoroughly.  It will be a resource to others with views similar to your own.  I also hope some luthiers will get on board and start offering a vegan-type mandolin as one more option.  There may be some players among us who are not vegans, yet might be interested in this type of instrument for a variety of personal reason.

I hope you find what you are looking for.  Best wishes,

Bob

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## tkdboyd

Okay...so the serious stuff has been addressed (I am a Vegiaquarium: if it is a non-mammal in the water, I'll eat it. Was strict lacto-ovo vegetarian for 20 years, and had a change of heart/stomach). 

Can we make jokes about Mandolins being Banjo killers in spite of their vegan-ism?

:-)

Even more hypocrisy on my part--those are all leather straps hanging on my mandolins!

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## JEStanek

I came at it from another angle when I had my two custom instruments built, I didn't want any plastics (binding or buttons) on either of them.  There are plenty of builders who will make a great instrument following the requirements you put forward.  There are animal and environmentally friendly options out there for the components (woods, glues, finishes, etc).  The challenge is to get these things on a smaller budget but, I believe it can be done, even if you have to do it yourself.

Jamie

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## journeybear

I believe a vegan mandolin _can_ be a banjo killer. The _owner_ may be a vegan, but the _mandolin_ may determine its ethics for itself. Free will, self-determination, all that.  :Wink:  Also, powerful construction.  :Mandosmiley: 




> ... It looks like I'll be holding on to my Ovation for now...





> I win!!


So does the Ovation. It is free from the fear of harm from the self-avowed _mandolin_ killer.  :Wink:  Actually, come to think of it, since Tim embraced Ovations, I don't recall any accounts of him destroying one. Perhaps that is more good news!

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## Jim Garber

> I think Walt builds those in Arizona now.


Walt used to be in AZ and now is in New Market, MD.  Contact page

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## MikeEdgerton

> Walt used to be in AZ and now is in New Market, MD.  Contact page


Hang on a minute, nobody moves from Arizona to Maryland! The next thing you're gonna tell me someonbody moved from Florida *TO* New Jersey. I don't know if that's criminal or not but it might be unAmerican.

Thanks for the correction.

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## journeybear

Well, the seafood is fresher there, for one thing.  :Smile:

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## Virginian

> Regarding oysters: they're probably not sentient, but I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I just view anything from kingdom animalia as off-limits.


Is it a matter of sentience or dignity?  I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that abalone "typically" isn't harvested for the shell alone (at least not in the legal sense).  Most abalone is harvested for their meat due to their status as a delicacy in several countries not called "US" (save for California...weirdos) or "UK".  When the meat is harvested, the shell is discarded; it becomes trash.

I'm not necessarily trying to get into the philosphical discussion of "animal rights" (I've been on this site all of 1 day and don't necessarily want that to be my reputation), but I just wanted to give you something to think about.  I'm far from a vegan, but very much an animal lover and, IMHO, using the abalone shell (which is bare in mind is treated as "trash") is a far more dignified way to treat the animal than allowing the food industry, which is the cause of their harvesting, to throw their shell away.

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## brunello97

> Hang on a minute, nobody moves from Arizona to Maryland! The next thing you're gonna tell me someonbody moved from Florida *TO* New Jersey. I don't know if that's criminal or not but it might be unAmerican.
> 
> Thanks for the correction.


Ha! I have a Yankee friend down in TX who keeps reminding me what a great place New Jersey is to be FROM. So we've been spending our winters in Michigan and summers in Austin.  Makes sense, right?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

> Hang on a minute, nobody moves from Arizona to Maryland! The next thing you're gonna tell me someonbody moved from Florida *TO* New Jersey. I don't know if that's criminal or not but it might be unAmerican.
> 
> Thanks for the correction.


I enjoyed Astrid and Walter's (as well as Dave Cohen's) companionship and conversations at CMSA in the instrument room. Nice folks and I have a feeling they might not have made the trip all the way to Baltimore if they were in AZ.

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## terzinator

Seems pretty tough to live a completely vegan existence. I like the idea of trying, but at some point you just have to do your best, fight the good fight and live with small compromises. I'm sure it's possible that animals could get harmed or killed in the harvesting of vegan crops. Birds are displaced when trees are chopped down, too, etc... And I know we've run over a squirrel while riding in my buddy's Prius. (On my bike, too, come to think of it!)

I wonder about the argument where "the shell would be discarded otherwise"... I think of cows, and meat, and that one might argue that the leather would be discarded otherwise. So, we do try to make complete use of the animal, but it still goes against the OP's request of no animal-based products on the mandolin.

I know we're avoiding the philosophical, but I do think that, in that price range, we're talking about Pac-Rim instruments (there are exceptions!), and I wonder what the working conditions are where the mandolins are made. Are the workers earning a fair wage, treated with respect, etc...? I'm sure there are many admirable builders, but I'd probably want to research the company that made the instrument to get a feel for that, if I was really trying to be especially conscientious.

I like the Big Muddy idea (one of the exceptions!), as well as the kit. I like Big Muddy because you could actually talk to the builder and get first-hand information about what goes into their instruments. It might even spur a special line of vegan mandolins, if they don't already conform to those specs! 

Good luck in the search!

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## SGraham

> Most abalone is harvested for their meat due to their status as a delicacy in several countries not called "US" (save for California...weirdos)


 Here's an invitation from a weirdo if you're ever in California. We'll go diving and grab a couple of green abalone and cook them on the beach. Pound 'em out and cook 'em 30 seconds a side--a little butter and lemon...nectar and ambrosia! I'll keep the shells and use them for inlays.

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## CaskAle

> Hear, hear! The OP simply wishes to use products that function satisfactorily while eschewing all animal-derived materials, regardless of how they were obtained. If I understand the vegan philosophy correctly, it doesn't matter whether the item in question came from an animal that was killed for it, was taken without harming the animal, or was found lying around, its life long ago having left it. They just want nothing to do with it. The OP is entitled to his beliefs and just wants some advice. Brave of him, coming to us for advice, knowing he might well get a few tweaks in the process.


The vegan 'philosophy' should rule out petrol-based plastics as well, then. Those are derived from crude oil. Crude oil was of course formed from dead plants and animals. Or is it okay if those animals died millions of years ago rather than recently?

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Petrus

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## Tim2723

Well, we've been told to avoid philosophical debate, but after all, this topic is all about a philosophy to begin with.  I'm glad this thread started.  I've learned a lot.  I never really knew anything about the Vegan ideology until this thread prompted me to read up on it.  The same is true of 'kosher' for me.  We've had a little good-natured ribbing and that's to be expected from any group that calls itself a friendly community.  But I'm glad to be a part of a group that can treat others' sensitivities so respectfully.

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Petrus

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## Virginian

> think of cows, and meat, and that one might argue that the leather would be discarded otherwise. So, we do try to make complete use of the animal, but it still goes against the OP's request of no animal-based products on the mandolin.


Yeah, I know it goes against the OP request, but I guess I'm trying to see where that "compromise" boundary is that you are talking about.  To me, the biggest difference between your leather analogy and abalone is because people _have_ been known to kill animals just to take the hides in a mass/industrial sense.  There simply isn't the demand to do the same with abalone shells which makes the shell a by-product, not the cause for harvesting.  

The last couple of friends I had who were vegan told me they were vegan "on principle" meaning that they didn't want to contribute to the man-made killing of animals.  In that scenario, abalone shell isn't the cause of killing the animal.  I just wanted to see if the same principle applied here to the OP.  If it did, his search might be significantly easier.




> We'll go diving and grab a couple of green abalone and cook them on the beach. Pound 'em out and cook 'em 30 seconds a side--a little butter and lemon...nectar and ambrosia!


Weirdo.  Why don't you just gut a whole hog, stick him on a spick and roast the carcass for 8 hours.  Then we can cook some collards with the ham-bone for another 2 hours, drench it with apple-cider vinegar and drink some tea with the viscosity of used motor oil.

See?  Doesn’t that sound so much more normal?

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## catmandu2

> See?  Doesn’t that sound so much more normal?


"Normal" to me is macrobiotic.  But I've been on the fringes for most of my adult life

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## fatt-dad

. . . and then there are "freegans" who don't buy products derived from animals, but will consume them if freely given.

Somebody give this dude a mandolin!

f-d

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## CES

Regardless of the philosophical/political perspectives, I think this is an interesting exercise, and one that we're going to have to do with increasing frequency.  That is, utilizing alternative materials for many day to day items we presently utilize...

OP, I think you're thinking down the right path by saving for a custom build.  You'll get a much better instrument that way than if you try to get one of the bigger import makers to alter their typical production patterns (IMO), and you'll have much more control (via communication with the luthier) over exactly what products are used in your mandolin...and, with Big Muddy, Gypsy, Redline Traveller, Howard Morris, etc, you're not looking at having to save a ton more.  You won't get the 100% trade in value for your Ovation, but you can either keep it as your "beater," or sell it at a bit of a loss on the classifieds here, or perhaps via consignment...

I also must admit that the first instrument that popped into my head was the "Commodium."  A bit over your price range, but intriguing (and you could probably get it built with a Tusq or Corian nut.  I also thought of Recording King's all metal resonators, though their tone may be lacking a bit if you're looking for something more traditional...

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## JEStanek

CES for the WIN.  I completely forgot the Commodium or Bed-Pan-dolin.

Perfect solution, if you have the dollars, and don't need the trade in/trade up deal.

Jamie

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## CJoshuaV

I hope no one minds a newbie resurrecting a dead thread, but this is exactly the information I was looking for.  

As a fan of bluegrass and folk music, I have been thinking about coping with my empty nest syndrome by learning to play the mandolin.  I was thinking of starting with a Loar LM220 or a Kentucky KM151, but it looks like those have bone and other animal parts.

It looks like the Breedlove Crossover OO might be a good option.  Any thoughts for an absolute beginner?

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## Bill Snyder

I suspect the fretboard dots are mother of pearl on the Crossover. You could email Breedlove and ask.

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## MikeEdgerton

In a beginner mandolin like the Rogue from Musicians friend you're probably pretty safe. When you start to climb the ladder to a more expensive instrument then you run the risk of getting something that was built with horse hide glue and something that uses natural abalone or pearl products as well as the bone.

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## Bill Snyder

FWIW from frets.com:
_"In the U.S. edible gelatin is made from pork skins and hide glue from beef hides."_

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## CJoshuaV

From what I understand, animal hide glue is rarely used in the lower-end mandolins.  

I don't ever buy anything with gelatin in it.  Is gelatin somehow used in the manufacturing process?

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## DavidKOS

All my mandolins are vegan, I've never seen them eat any animal products at all.

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## CJoshuaV

> All my mandolins are vegan, I've never seen them eat any animal products at all.


Hahahaha!  You're not the first person to make that joke when I've had a discussion with someone about "vegan" clothing.  Likewise, none of my shoes have ever consumed an animal product!

With that said, a "vegan" product _contains_ no animal-derived components, whereas a vegan person does not _consume_ them.  :Smile:

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## journeybear

> With that said, a "vegan" product _contains_ no animal-derived components, whereas a vegan person does not _consume_ them.


I'm glad you made that distinction. Most vegans I've known do contain animal-derived components.  :Wink:  But there was that one who was putting on airs and seemed so phony she was probably plastic ...  :Whistling:

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## CJoshuaV

> But there was that one who was putting on airs and seemed so phony she was probably plastic ...


I think I dated her in college.

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## KGreene

Deleted.... Post was in response to outdated post.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> From what I understand, animal hide glue is rarely used in the lower-end mandolins.


That is true, but the lower-end mandolins are more likely to have binding or tuner buttons made of plastic. As pointed out in post #81, dinosours had to give their last full measure of devotion to provide the raw materials. 

And the lower-end mandolins are more likely to have been fashioned using a greater percentage of machine carving than hand carving. Those machines require energy of some sort. We're told that the electical energy converted by burning coal will eventually cause harm to polar bears. Even if you powered those carving machines using only electicity produced by wind power, you can bet there were at least a few of our feathered friends dismembered by the wind-turbine drive blades.  :Frown: 




> I don't ever buy anything with gelatin in it.  Is gelatin somehow used in the manufacturing process?


Gelatin is a major component of hide glue I believe.

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## CJoshuaV

Mike at Big Muddy has been hugely helpful.  That was a great suggestion.

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## Petrus

Not sure how relevant this is, but there is an alternative theory going around that suggests oil is created by abiogenic means deep within the earth and not by the decomposition of organic matter.  Some versions of this theory have been discredited or remain unproven, while others remain ambiguous.  They suggest, as a corollary, that the earth is continually replenishing its supply of oil (far under the surface.)

It's also a possibility that someday we may get our oil (and plastic mando buttons!) from comets.




> The presence of methane on Saturn's moon Titan and in the atmospheres of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune is cited as evidence of the formation of hydrocarbons without biology, for example by Thomas Gold.  (Terrestrial natural gas is composed primarily of methane). Some comets contain "massive amounts of an organic material almost identical to high grade oil shale (kerogen)," the equivalent of cubic kilometers of such mixed with other material; for instance, corresponding hydrocarbons were detected during a probe fly-by through the tail of Comet Halley in 1986.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

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## Zyzzyzus

Petrus, can you provide the source for that theory?

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Not sure how relevant this is, but there is an alternative theory going around that suggests oil is created by abiogenic means deep within the earth and not by the decomposition of organic matter.  Some versions of this theory have been discredited or remain unproven, while others remain ambiguous.  They suggest, as a corollary, that the earth is continually replenishing its supply of oil (far under the surface.)
> 
> It's also a possibility that someday we may get our oil (and plastic mando buttons!) from comets.


Thanks for that. I've read some pretty convincing evidence that suggests that the Earth's oil supply may not be as finite as once believed. 

Not too sure I can swallow the 'hydrocarbons without biology' idea though. 

Now...back to building a mandolin that doesn't harm any critters.  :Wink:

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## foldedpath

> Not sure how relevant this is, but there is an alternative theory going around that suggests oil is created by abiogenic means deep within the earth and not by the decomposition of organic matter.  Some versions of this theory have been discredited or remain unproven, while others remain ambiguous.  They suggest, as a corollary, that the earth is continually replenishing its supply of oil (far under the surface.)


I dunno... this seems like vegan handwaving to avoid dealing with the very likely biological origin of hydrocarbons. Isn't it enough to just want to avoid the source of materials from contemporary resources, like hide glue and bone nuts? 

I mean, if you go back far enough, we're all star stuff.... can't touch anything because we're all made of compounds formed in supernova explosions.

I have great respect for those that take the vegan path. I can't do it myself because I'm lazy, and my S.O. is a carnivore. But when the ethos stretches all the way back to fossil hydrocarbons, I think it's getting to that point where one has to consider where all these compounds came from, in the first place. The argument for vegetarianism is much stronger (IMO) when it's a bit more localized in time and place.

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Jim Garber

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## journeybear

> Now...back to building a mandolin that doesn't harm any critters.


Not meaning to split hairs (animal or human), but I believe you meant "*didn't* harm any critters." Any mandolin, however or with whatever it may have been built, may still cause harm to animals if improperly played, or if the victimized critter is just too sensitive. Dogs that howl while an instrument is being played may actually be expressing auditory anguish, not "singing along." Just sayin' ...  :Whistling: 




> The argument for vegetarianism is much stronger (IMO) when it's a bit more localized in time and place.


I agree. I've been rereading this thread since it got resurrected, and I've been surprised to see the emphasis on the arguments concerning fossil fuels. It hadn't occurred to me that vegans would object to using them and their by-products, believing their beliefs centered on how animals are treated in the present day-to-day context. It seems to me that if they were completely eschew petroleum-based products, vegans would not be able to participate in modern civilization at all. They could not drive cars, ride bikes, listen to music, watch TV, or communicate via phone or internet. They could, however, build a log cabin, grow vegetables, carve wooden flutes, fashion pottery ocarinas, and watch the stars at night. Perhaps this sort of living in harmony with nature is their goal. Seems extreme and atavistic to me.

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FLATROCK HILL, 

Jim Garber

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## Jim Garber

To me these questions present ultimate conundrums. One question I hv is what is the origin of a carpenter's glue such as Titebond. I always thought there were some milk products involved. Also, are we talking only of not harming creatures, then using milk products would be OK, right? I mean, a vegan diet is not eating any animal products, but unless we were to actually eat a mandolin that should be not if concern. 

Back to the recent inquiry: perhaps the best thing would be to contact a Usa maker who can follow the dictates but for a reasonable price, perhaps Mike at Big Muddy or Sonny Osborne. It really should not be all that difficult as long as we are not talking mandolins already built or right off the boat, so to speak.

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## Petrus

> Petrus, can you provide the source for that theory?


The Wikipedia article has a bunch of references linked at the bottom of the page.  I can't vouch for them specifically though.

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## Petrus

> Thanks for that. I've read some pretty convincing evidence that suggests that the Earth's oil supply may not be as finite as once believed.


Well, even if it is biologically created, it's not necessarily finite because all of us above ground today (including vegetation) will eventually be covered and compressed into oil. But that's going to take a while!




> Not too sure I can swallow the 'hydrocarbons without biology' idea though.


A hydrocarbon is just a compound with hydrogen and carbon in it.   IIRC, hydrocarbons have been found in space (nebula and interstellar medium), and they certainly exist on some planets and moons, so there is no necessarily requirement that you have biology in order to have hydrocarbons.  I think amino acids have also been found in space too but that's a whole 'nother thread.

Titan has more oil than earth does
http://www.space.com/4968-titan-oil-earth.html


Hydrocarbon fuels aren't fossils
http://www.mitosyfraudes.org/Ingles2/FossilFuels.html

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FLATROCK HILL

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## journeybear

Methane is a very simple compound, CH4, and need not be organic in origin (though it is technically an organic compound).

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## foldedpath

> Methane is a very simple compound, CH4, and need not be organic in origin (though it is technically an organic compound).


If we're going to outlaw Methane, then I'm in deep trouble after a few Guinnesses' at the local session. Or more likely, the ride home afterwards...

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## journeybear

No vegan, me. I don't want to say what's for dinner so as not to offend any, though.  :Wink:  

I believe Neptune has some methane in its atmosphere, which gives it a blue hue. And Saturn's moon Titan has seas of liquid methane. Mining it would be cost-prohibitive, of course.

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## Bill Snyder

Jim Garber, there is NO milk in Titebond or any other PVA (polyvinyl acetate) glue. Casein glue is made from milk.

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Jim Garber

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## brunello97

A vegan restaurant just opened in our building, Bill. We're looking forward to trying a few things out, including the 'coconut bacon' their menu promises.   A few interesting breakfasts ahead.  

I've used some milk based paints back in my old woodworking days.  Never could cotton to drinking the stuff, though.  Milk, that is.

Mick

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## Bertram Henze

> I believe Neptune has some methane in its atmosphere, which gives it a blue hue. And Saturn's moon Titan has seas of liquid methane. Mining it would be cost-prohibitive, of course.


Mining it can be done on earth by eating just enough broccoli. And as for finite oil resources: Scott Adams has predicted that scientists will discover oil in their own hair.  :Whistling:

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Ellen T

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## journeybear

Really? Fart jokes? Is that the best we can do? This isn't the Banjo Hangout!

BTW, at room temperature and standard pressure, methane is a colorless, odorless gas. Odors are introduced as impurities. It is not commonly produced industrially, as it is still abundant in nature.

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## Bertram Henze

> Is that the best we can do?


Not the best we can do, but convertible into banjo jokes, i.e. good for separating all veggie content from it in the process.
Another carbon hydrate that makes for a good joke conversion is ethanol, of course, and it's completely vegan...

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## Colin Lindsay

> Mining it would be cost-prohibitive, of course.


Just needs a very long pipe. Very long. If we wait until Titan is high in the sky then, using gravity, the methane will run downhill straight to us… so it’s cost effective too. 
Scientists? Who needs ’em?

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## Bertram Henze

> If we wait until Titan is high in the sky then, using gravity, the methane will run downhill straight to us…


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Crying:

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## Zyzzyzus

"I dunno... this seems like vegan handwaving to avoid dealing with the very likely biological origin of hydrocarbons."  

I don't know any vegan who objects to using oil or oil based products because it formed from zooplankton millions of years ago.  The point of veganism (according to the ones I know, and I'm one myself) is to do as little harm as possible.  So, yes, in the harvesting of plant crops mice and other small animals were likely killed.  But, animals like cows are fed plant crops too, so eating a cow means one is involved in the practice of raising an animal explicitly to be killed and also still 'causing' small animals to be harmed while harvesting the corn and whatnot that cows are fed.  So, vegans eat plants and don't eat animals.  Anybody who says they've never done anything that causes an animal's death is just being silly though.  

And since the plankton that formed oil is looooooong dead, I definitely can't see how a vegan would object to oil on those grounds  :Smile: 

I looked at the wikipedia article and I think some of the confusion is that methane (natural gas) and oil (petroleum) are not quite the same thing.  

Anyway, I have to say that I've only skimmed the recent posts on this thread but I really appreciate that it hasn't turned into a 'vegans are idiots' rant!

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## Bertram Henze

> Anyway, I have to say that I've only skimmed the recent posts on this thread but I really appreciate that it hasn't turned into a 'vegans are idiots' rant!


Such a rant would make any thread a shortlived one, on this forum. Also, we are a strange minority ourselves, playing these little instruments, so we have a built-in civility based on experience. I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm a tea drinker/coffee-hater so who am I to tell others they are off mainstream.

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## Jim Garber

> Jim Garber, there is NO milk in Titebond or any other PVA (polyvinyl acetate) glue. Casein glue is made from milk.


Thanks, Bill. I did check the bottle and their website but it is hard to tell where ingredients come from originally. I guess one answer for a budget vegan mandolin may be to remove all bone or she'll products from an import and replace with non-animal-sourced materials.

Maybe the most assured method would be to build from a kit and know exactly what you are putting into it.

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## DavidKOS

> Anyway, I have to say that I've only skimmed the recent posts on this thread but I really appreciate that it hasn't turned into a 'vegans are idiots' rant!


Although I do believe that everyone should spend some time as a vegetarian to learn some lessons, strict veganism may not be a great health choice for some people.

http://www.tbyil.com/Recovering_Vegan.htm

Just a thought.....

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## FLATROCK HILL

> Anyway, I have to say that I've only skimmed the recent posts on this thread but I really appreciate that it hasn't turned into a 'vegans are idiots' rant!


No one here would go on a 'vegans are idiots' rant. This is a civilized site, and the forum is composed of thoughtful and polite contributors. 

It is conceivable though, that a subset of vegans who don't believe that Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass, could become the target of such a rant.

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## Bertram Henze

> It is possible though, that a subset of vegans who don't believe that Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass, could become the target of such a rant.


I guess biting off the scroll from your headstock doesn't count as eating vegan.  :Whistling:

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## brunello97

> Although I do believe that everyone should spend some time as a vegetarian to learn some lessons, strict veganism may not be a great health choice for some people.
> 
> http://www.tbyil.com/Recovering_Vegan.htm
> 
> Just a thought.....


You're not really serious about this article, are you?

"Eating meat everyday turned out to be incredibly easy......My life is so yummy – I want to share every single bite!"  Is there an emoticon for "groan"?

I'm going to stick to listening to my MC colleagues in the once-and-forever 'archtop' vs 'bowlback' debate.

Mick

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## DavidKOS

> You're not really serious about this article, are you?
> 
> "Eating meat everyday turned out to be incredibly easy......My life is so yummy – I want to share every single bite!"  Is there an emoticon for "groan"?
> 
> I'm going to stick to listening to my MC colleagues in the once-and-forever 'archtop' vs 'bowlback' debate.
> 
> Mick


Not so much the goofy author's personal take, but the issues it brings up. I've been studying diet for decades, and between vegans on one hand and Paleo diet supporters on the other hand (as in "eat meat, your ancestors did and you're genetically the same"), there is some serious contradictory information, and I thought that article a good way to bring up the other side and not start anything disrespectful.

Like I said, everyone should spend some time as a vegetarian - but not everyone can do so forever in our modern stressful world.

Also, once you hear the screams of the plants, it's all over anyway.

And I like bowlbacks.

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## hjforsh

Interesting thread -- thanks!  I find the different perspectives and opinions (and even jokes!) quite thought-provoking.

I'm a brand new newbie here, and a many-year vegetarian who went vegan about a year ago.  For me it's about doing what's best for my own health, the amazing creatures we share this planet with, and the planet itself.  I'm far from perfect at this, just trying to do a little better today than I did yesterday.

So knowing that Great-Grandpa's old Gibson A may contain some animal parts doesn't worry me overmuch.  I believe that by learning to play this lovely old treasure I will be honoring the sentient beings whose lives went into making it, those beautiful trees whose wood forms its body, and all the human hands, now gone from this world, who formed it, played it and loved it.  I'm grateful to all of them, trees, abalone and humans as well.

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Bertram Henze, 

FLATROCK HILL, 

journeybear

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## journeybear

You see, now, this is an attitude and perspective I can appreciate and respect. You have to take into consideration all aspects of a situation or system with a balanced outlook in order to form an informed decision. Overly weighted opinions, especially when they become obsessions, give me pause, give me the willies, make me uneasy. I'm all for living in peace and harmony with my fellow inhabitants of this wondrous world, and I'm all right with a wide variety of manifestations of this. The key part is that peace and harmony, and even though I understand the way animals are turned onto food is not exactly humane, I don't want to have to fend for myself. So, yes, I'm living a compromised existence. But I'm already doing that in so many other aspects of my life, this is one that I'm OK with. It's expedient and efficient, and those are important factors in managing my existence. We have so many resources available to us, and our civilization has evolved to the current point, I'm for using what we have at hand to its fullest, without causing undue harm or damage to the world in the process.

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hjforsh

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