# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  1934 Gibson F-10

## Michael Weaver

I just saw this on RetroFret and found it pretty interesting. I have no financial interest, just thought I would share the coolness. 



http://www.retrofret.com/products.as...D=3550&CartID=

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## Michael Weaver

Better picture

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## William Smith

Been eying that one for a few years now on their website. Really neat and rare mandolin with only 4 or so known to be out there and 2 have been converted in some ways. Them short necks don't have the power of a 5 but still great old Gibson tone and fun to play with the rare factor, a lot rarer than an old F-5! Wish I had the cash to get her to go with my prewar F-12 and F-7's, maybe some day.

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## Jim Garber

That is a sweet sounding mandolin for sure. Very different from the Loar they have but nice sounding. I was actually surprised.

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Michael Weaver

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## Marty Jacobson

Aha, that's what's got you thinking about black tops.. :-) That is a gorgeous instrument.

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Michael Weaver

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## f5loar

Years ago Gruhn had in all 3, the 7,10,12 and I got to play all 3 to compare at the same time.  I didn't see any difference in tone and how they played.  It's all cosmetics and trim difference.  The 10 is the rare one of the 3.  7 being the cheapest during a depression time in USA was the most popular.  I guess the black didn't catch on back then.

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Michael Weaver

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## Michael Weaver

> Aha, that's what's got you thinking about black tops.. :-) That is a gorgeous instrument.


Haha! Actually I was telling my significant other about getting a mandocello and she said "okay I will totally go for it if you get a black top". But....I'm still thinking about it.

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## Michael Weaver

> Been eying that one for a few years now on their website. Really neat and rare mandolin with only 4 or so known to be out there and 2 have been converted in some ways. Them short necks don't have the power of a 5 but still great old Gibson tone and fun to play with the rare factor, a lot rarer than an old F-5! Wish I had the cash to get her to go with my prewar F-12 and F-7's, maybe some day.


Years.....didn't realize it had been sitting that long. Kind of surprises me even with the price.

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## pfox14

Given the fact that Gibson's mandolin sales in the 30s was not good, it makes any of these pre-war Fs rare especially in nice condition like this one. I love the black finish.

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## Jim Garber

> Years.....didn't realize it had been sitting that long. Kind of surprises me even with the price.


It is more of a collector's piece than a player's one. For that price you can get a nice workhorse F5 with a longer neck and the right bluegrass sound. I liked the way it sounded but I am not sure that I would but it solely for its rarity.

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## William Smith

Yes that's been sitting for a while now, I know Retrofret sold this 10 to a guy in one of the New England states a few years ago,and for whatever reason he was trying to swap/sell it, when he got a hold of me I didn't have the $ to buy it so it found its way back to Retrofret. I don't think that's too high of a price for what that mandolin is, and yes its a rarity issue for a collector to love, for that kind of $ you can get a serious powerhouse F-5. I'd buy that black Betty if the wife didn't think we need an addition on our house. I love them mandolins, that's my thing.
  F5Loar, when did Gruhn have the set?, I can't believe I missed them, I'm usually pretty good at finding them through friends and dealers. Did they sell as a set or individually and if ya can remember how much $ were they going for at the time. That's my hobby I love finding and making a list of these mandolins, I think they are fantastic, something about them, I have a pretty good list I've been working on for a few years now on known examples and would love to add more to that list. So if anyone out there has some #'s or information they would like to share with me that would be great. I'll keep names confidential. I really love collecting and playing these obscure Gibsons from the 30's, I'm probably their biggest fan. Its a fun hobby and one that I can afford every few years to add another one to my collection. I don't have any pristine examples like the mint F-7 at Smokey Mountain Guitars, Check that one out that 34 F-7 looks like it stepped out of a time machine. Very nice.

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## Jim Garber

The only F-10 I could find in the archives is *this one*. I haven't yet figure out how to search for particular styles in the archives.

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## grassrootphilosopher

I find Tom´s (F5Loar) statement interesting, that the F-7, F-10 and F-12 of the 30ies sound the same with the outward appearance being the only difference. 

A "closet queen" F-7 goes for about 13.000 USD in this economy. I think the Smokey Mountain Guitars F-7 is overpriced. I draw my knowledge from the various ads for F-7s over the last couple of years. Those which were advertised (www.myguitarsyndrome.com, Charles Johnson, I think Grandpa Banana had a converted one sometime ago) all had an asking price in that region.

I am very interested in the tone. Reading Jim Garber´s comment about its sound probably not fitting bluegrass well finds me interested. If the F-10 (and F-7 as well as F-12) do not fit in the bluegrass niche it may be quite difficult to sell.

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## William Smith

They do have great tone, and basically F5 Loar is right they would all sound kinda the same, the 7,10,12 are the same mandolin except inlay pattern and finish, and the 12 has gold plating and pearl buttons. Tell ya get a long F-5 scale maple neck and ya have a poor mans vintage F-5. Some sound better than others with this modification as do some sound better than others with the short neck. I also think the F-7 at Smokey Mt. is way overpriced, I just bought a 34 F-7 a few months ago with some minor issues for 7G. I guess I don't understand the condition grading system some dealers use.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I find Tom´s (F5Loar) statement interesting, that the F-7, F-10 and F-12 of the 30ies sound the same with the outward appearance being the only difference. 
> I am very interested in the tone. Reading Jim Garber´s comment about its sound probably not fitting bluegrass well finds me interested. If the F-10 (and F-7 as well as F-12) do not fit in the bluegrass niche it may be quite difficult to sell.




What's peculiar about these instruments is that they "did" fit into the bluegrass niche at one time..Bill Monroe played one.  I think with the proliferation of other choices in this day and age, they no longer really fit.  If one thinks a 1940 A-50 fits, then they do.  But these are 10X the cost and sound roughly the same.

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## William Smith

That is the only 10 in the archives, and that says its been converted with long neck and brown sunburst finish, I don't know why someone would refinish such a rare mandolin?, I don't see a problem with the long neck as long as you save the original short neck! Hell people have been changing tenor and plectrum banjos into 5 string mastertones for years and years before that all the great old world builders of violins had there short necks taken off and new ones built for the new age.

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## Jim Garber

What I recall of playing the F-10 was that it did not sound quite like the F5s I have played but neither did it sound like 20s oval holes either. Maybe somewhere in between. Bear in mind that I played it in the same time frame as the Loar they have -- I mostly recall that they were very different. Also, I am not a bluegrass player and therefore no expert on the best sound for the genre.

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## William Smith

I think these instruments came out of production because of the great depression and it was the jazz age, Wanted a cheaper F hole model than the 5, Gibson probably had a bunch of necks laying around from the F-2 and F-4 so they decided to use em, kinda makes some sense but with that short neck it puts the bridge back behind the f hole points, the sweet spot. They could've designed the body with F holes to be placed better? They also probably had scraps of wood to use because on a bunch of these mandolins that I've seen, it doesn't look like they used matched sets of wood.

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## grassrootphilosopher

> What's peculiar about these instruments is that they "did" fit into the bluegrass niche at one time..Bill Monroe played one.  I think with the proliferation of other choices in this day and age, they no longer really fit.  If one thinks a 1940 A-50 fits, then they do.  But these are 10X the cost and sound roughly the same.


True, Darryl!

I simply did leave out the early Bill Monroe (pre 1942) and I also left out people like Buzz Busby. I do think that you are okay playing bluegrass with even an F-2 (Flatt & Scruggs - Sechler), an F-4 (?) (Jimmy Martin), an A-4 (Red Rector) etc.

But indeed there was a pardigm-shift and now the weapon of choice "must" be an F-5 of sorts.

Do F-10s really sound "roughly" the same like a 1940 A-50 (http://www.archtop.com/ac_40A50.html)? I am inclined to think that there is quite a difference because of the elevated fretboard on the F-10 (et. al).

Anybody on the cafe here willing to post a video/soundclip of a 40ies A-50?

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## uncle ken

Here are some pictures of an F7 conversion I had done this year. The donor F7 had a crummy neck extension from the 60's so it was a perfect candidate for this. Michael Lewis made a new maple neck so I was able to get the profile and neck angle I wanted. We reused the original headstock overlay and tuners and made a duplicate F7 fingerboard that is now in the F5 location. I like that the F7 boards are chopped off square, makes it easier to pick. The back and tone bars were too heavy so he re-graduated everything to Loar F5 dimensions. He had taken measurements in the past on some well know Loars for reference. The tone is pretty amazing, as good as many post Loar ferns I've played. So as someone else mentioned here, you can make a nice vintage player for low cost.

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Bernie Daniel, 

Bill Baldridge, 

DataNick, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

Russ Donahue, 

sgarrity, 

William Smith

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## Bernie Daniel

> Here are some pictures of an F7 conversion I had done this year. The donor F7 had a crummy neck extension from the 60's so it was a perfect candidate for this. Michael Lewis made a new maple neck so I was able to get the profile and neck angle I wanted. We reused the original headstock overlay and tuners and made a duplicate F7 fingerboard that is now in the F5 location. I like that the F7 boards are chopped off square, makes it easier to pick. The back and tone bars were too heavy so he re-graduated everything to Loar F5 dimensions. He had taken measurements in the past on some well know Loars for reference. The tone is pretty amazing, as good as many post Loar ferns I've played. So as someone else mentioned here, you can make a nice vintage player for low cost.


That is a beauty.  Did you consider distressing the new woods a bit?  Somehow the back of the new neck looks vintage to me.   Also the fact that smaller curl on the headstock (G-side) curves all the way back to the main part is unique.

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## pfox14

How long did Gibson make the F-10 & F-12? Can't be very long as they appeared & then disappeared from Gibson's catalogs after 1934.

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## f5loar

When Gruhn had all 3 at the same time it was back in the mid to late 80's.  I've got a photo of the trio here.  Send over a genuine certified geek or a teenager and I'll get them to scan it to post here.  The price I don't recall but the 10 was slightly more than the 12 To me they sound closer to the F4 sound. Monroe sure did a get a good tone out of his.

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## William Smith

Nice conversion Uncle Ken! I love it man!, Is that the same F-7 that was on Lowell Levingers website a few years ago, by the time I found out about it, it was sold and for a great price if I remember correctly. I've got 2 7 conversions just like yours but mine have the scooped extention, same inlay pattern, I like the "urn-curlycue" better than the fluer-de-lis, Very nice.

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## William Smith

Who made the pickguard for that one uncle ken? I'm in need of a few original type F-7 guards as the originals for 2 of my 7's are deteriorated beyond.

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## uncle ken

The F7 shown above was owned by a local guy since the 60's. It was already neck splice converted when he bought it. I asked Michael to do a bare neck so he gave it the vintage look you see in the picture but it still feels like bare wood. He sealed it with something that feels slippery. Steve Smith at Cumberland made the pick guard, I believe it is an F12 size. The headstock overlay and binding are the originals from 1938.

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## Retrofret

Hey guys,

We just made a quick video of the F-10 in question here.


Just have to warn you guys, I'm not the best mandolin player! I'll have to get someone more competent to demo this fine instrument soon.

Best,
Scott

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Michael Weaver

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## Gary Hedrick

> When Gruhn had all 3 at the same time it was back in the mid to late 80's.  I've got a photo of the trio here.  Send over a genuine certified geek or a teenager and I'll get them to scan it to post here.  The price I don't recall but the 10 was slightly more than the 12 To me they sound closer to the F4 sound. Monroe sure did a get a good tone out of his.


I believe you are correct that it was in the mid 80's ...I bought my Loar in 1984 and it was a year or two after that. I went to IBMA? in Nashville and he had them there. I also got to play the Henry Garrios (sp?)  red Loar at the same time.....my Loar was my ticket to get to play it. 

They were all about the same tone to me if I remember correctly ....not terrible but just not the projection and tone of a Loar.

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## William Smith

That F-10 sounds good to me, a bit out of tune! yep want it in a bad way, just out of my price range. For what it is, its great in my mind anyway, super rare, very kool and really don't sound bad but would like to hear some nasty fiddle tunes on it up to speed up and down the neck/ a little more bluegrass style to it than Scott played. Thanks a bunch for sharing this with us Scott.

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## Scott Tichenor

Just played it about an hour ago. Yowza. Very, very nice.

#kansasguyinbrooklyn

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Jim Garber, 

Michael Weaver

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## Gary Hedrick

How was the projection of it.....more of a mid 30's F5 sound?

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## Michael Weaver

Thank you Scott for the video....I would really like to shred that mando until my hand exploded!

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## William Smith

Yep still want her. Maybe I should sell my Gilchrist F-5 for it? What ya all think, Is I nuts?

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## Jim Garber

> Just played it about an hour ago. Yowza. Very, very nice.
> 
> #kansasguyinbrooklyn


Man, Scott, you just sneak into NY area and quietly sneak out. It would have been nice to meet up sometime. Did you also play the Loar? Anything else there that sparked your interest? I was there a few months ago.

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## Scott Tichenor

> Man, Scott, you just sneak into NY area and quietly sneak out. It would have been nice to meet up sometime. Did you also play the Loar? Anything else there that sparked your interest? I was there a few months ago.


Jim, just up for a few days to meet with Dan Beimborn and deliver an instrument to him. Some of you know this but Dan is in the employ of the Cafe for some sysadmin and programming and I pay him in fine vintage instruments. Not making that up. Headed back Thursday. We hung out last night most of the evening, had dinner, adult beverages and walked all over town trying to burn off some of the calories we took in. That Loar is off the charts for my hands and ears. One of the best ones I've ever played and I've played quite a few. It has everything I want in a mandolin and that first A chord chop was about all I needed to know it's really special. Retrofret is a hoot! May try to write an article about the place.

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## Jim Garber

So, Dan was in town too. I, too, thought the Loar was wonderful but, tho I have played a handful of them in my life, that one was the first that I got to play in a relaxed setting. I thought that that was the key to it. Well, anyway, have fun in the ciudad. i love Retrofret, too. In fact, Steve and I are friends from way back, played in quite a few bands and he repaired quite a few of my prized instrument back in the stony age in Brooklyn. Hey, i lived there when it was not so cool, but then again, I am not so cool anyway.  :Smile:

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## grassrootphilosopher

What a fine vintage sound that F-10 has! That is an instrument that would make anyone proud to own it (for a fair price... [not the former 25k]).

Indeed, the sound is not so much F-5ey and indeed more in the F-4/F-50 (fretboard glued to the top kind of) sound. Still I love the sound. I atribute the sound to the mahogany neck, the bridge placement and the shorter scale... (discuss).

I have seen a lot many pricey (modern and vintage) instruments that did not sound near as good.

@ Scott Tichenor: Do write an article about "the place". Don´t forget a comparison between the Lloyd Loar F-5, the F-10 and your Nugget that presumably was not with you on the trip. Don´t forget soundclips and/or videos...

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## William Smith

None of the F-7's/F-10's and prewar F-12's had the fretboard glued to the top, they were all elevated. And played right I've heard one of my F-7's "all original" compared to an unsigned Fern Loar and well it wa about the same sounding believe it or not.

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## Retrofret

Just for reference, here is a picture of the fingerboard on the F-10.

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## Retrofret

Sorry for the delay but we finally got some decent players to demo the loar f-5 and f-10 for us!  Let me know what you think.



Best,
Scott

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Hendrik Ahrend, 

William Smith

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## goaty76

Wow that was great.  A nice demo of the tone of each. It would have been interesting to have them trade instruments at the end and then play the same thing. I wonder how different each instrument would sound then. By the way, who are they?

Phil

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## Retrofret

> Wow that was great.  A nice demo of the tone of each. It would have been interesting to have them trade instruments at the end and then play the same thing. I wonder how different each instrument would sound then. By the way, who are they?
> 
> Phil


Eric Robertson of The Boston Boys is playing the Loar and Dominick Leslie from The Deadly Gentlemen is playing the F-10.  Both very talented young mandolinists! We should have at least one other video of the instruments coming soon.

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## AlanN

Isn't Eric (striped shirt) on the F-10? Nice pickin by them boys.

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## Gary Hedrick

I still think the Loar is a better sound.......

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## William Smith

YES. Thanks for that video so we can all get to hear the difference in both these fine horns...The Loar sounds like a Loar, the 10 sounds like them there other 2 kool mandos of the depression era. The 7&12! Yep I still want the 10! Just a rarer mandolin than those Loars.

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Gary Hedrick

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## Gary Hedrick

Didn't say bad......just like the Loar better....I have played the trio that Tom discusses earlier in the thread when George had them......nice instruments just like that Loar a little better...

Now all you have to do Mr Smith is pony up the $18k and you will have the a trio....

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## lenf12

Retrofret said: "Sorry for the delay but we finally got some decent players to demo the loar f-5 and f-10 for us! Let me know what you think."

Thanks very much Scott for posting this video. I'm just getting back to this thread to view this at home as it's blocked at work. The difference between them to my ears (listening on cheap computer audio speakers) is the Loar F-5 has a mid range punch that punctures through a multi-instrumental mix. The F-10 has better balance from bass thru trebles and seems to be equal in volume to the F-5. Both are great mandolins but my wallet and my tendancy towards the more obscure (especially if it's blacktop) got me leaning towards the F-10. It's a very cool mandolin and the BG police be damned. BTW- them boys are pretty darn good pickers, thanks again.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## Minorkey

Beautiful instrument there!

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## Retrofret

> Isn't Eric (striped shirt) on the F-10? Nice pickin by them boys.


Yes thanks for catching that! Eric is the one in the striped shirt playing the F10 and Dom is playing the Loar F5.

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## Retrofret

Thanks everyone for the feedback! Its a little late for christmas tunes but this was so much fun we just had to share it.

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## f5loar

Well you can sure tell the Loar sound in the above one but someone needs to tell Eric that there ain't not money past the 12th fret!
The F10/F5 duel off, I am hearing the F10 sounding more like a mid to late 30's F5 while the Loar still sounds Loarish in the other guys hands too.  The F10 does seem to have plenty of punch to it.

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Gary Hedrick

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## Don Julin

I played them both at RetroFret in November and they were both very fine Gibsons. The Loar has a virzi if I remember correctly. The F-10 was very responsive and really fun to play. This recording sounds pretty true to me. Nice folks and a very cool vintage music shop.

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## Hendrik Ahrend

Eric Robertson (striped shirt) plays the F10 further away from the bridge, while both Eric and Dominick pick the Loar closer to the bridge (seems natural, as it's positioned in the middle). I wonder how much that makes for an even mellower/rounder F10 sound.

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