# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Classical style plectrum

## MLT

Hi all, 

I hope this is the correct board to ask this. #I would like to try a classical style plectrum. #

As I start to explore playing old style Italian and classical I would like to experiment with one, but can't find where to buy one. 

Any help in pointing me in the right direction would be great.

----------


## Jim Garber

I am not sure what you mean by a classical style plectrum. There are quite a few varieties used by players of classical music. Some use the slim pointy Pettine ones; some use the long double pointed Ranieri picks. Some of the players in the German school of playing use sort of rubber-type picks to avoid pick noise. Some folks just use small "jazz-style" picks. Some may just use std picks like anyone else. 

I think it also depends on the type of music you are playing and your playing style. I am sure that others will chime in here.

What are you using at the moment? Does it inhibit your playing?

----------


## Bob A

WHile I have a couple Pettine picks and a whole slew of others, the ones that get the nod are either TS or Wegen or a strange old beveled pick made for a Rochester mando instructor, stamped very lightly "Santos Supreme". I'll give you a dollar for every one of those you send me.

For no particular reason, I've grown accustomed to large triangular picks. They seem to fit nicely against my first finger joint and don't tend to rotate much, keeping the point pointed at the strings. It works for me, and if you could hear my playing you'd avoid them like the plague.

Aside from that, I find each instrument/string combination responds differently to different picks. On the other hand, good players that I know use only one kind of pick, sometimes highly personalised thru shaping and buffing. It seems to be a very personal thing.

So what do you play on? Bowlback, Gibson, flatback? String gauge may also determine pick thickness preferences.

----------


## Ali

hi Jim, 
I hate to be "picky" - pun intended .....but its not just the German-style players who use various more rubbery style materials - Woll picks come in blue and white and there is a black pick called a Roland pick that many use for Calace. The German-style players were certainly the instigator of this pick of course.
They do sort of cut down on pick noise (clicks are replaced with a dull thud!) but they also get much more tone out of many instruments and take the high-end frequency off, often making the sound less tinny and brittle.
No-one has mentioned tortoiseshell picks yet or Dogul (used by many of Ugo Orlandi's followers).......
Also recently discovered the yellow Dava control picks - they're pretty interesting as are the Clayton little ones - the white ones.....again they get a lovely warm tone, though I find them a little "clicky" for my own personal taste.
Shaping any of the above mentioned picks with fine sandpaper followed by 2000 grade polishing paper (like guitarists use) is a MUST though - you can achieve the degree of point you want and keep the tip really smooth and fine.
I'll stop now!
All the best
Ali

----------


## Jim Garber

I have a Dogal pick somewhere that Eugene gave me but it is so small I probably misplaced it. 

I mainly play with a John Pearse jazz heavy pick or a TS one that was shped to that same shape. I need to thin down that TS one tho since it is pretty heavy weight and is too much for even the Pandini. 

I have been fooling around with the Ranieri pick that Ralf sent me when I got my Embergher. It takes a little while to get used to esp for tremelo but I can see how you can control tone with it. That pick would definitely not be a bluegrass one tho 

BTW Ali, I did not mean to lump you with the German style players or imply that only those who play in that style use those Woll picks.

----------


## MLT

Thank you all for your thoughts and practices.

Currently I am using "Dog-Like" picks and have used Dunlop 207s and JazzMando Plecs. #I like the feel of all of these but have really gotten a feel for the Dog-like ones. #

As I am hoping to begin to play music of the style listed in this forum and traditional italian, I thought that a plec in the style that I have seen like these...for no other reason that experimentation.

Thanks again.

----------


## Jim Garber

Those are Ranieri picks.

----------


## Embergher

> Those are Ranieri picks.


Yes, they're similar ... this material is different though (not TS) and also the way they're shaped. 

About the German "rubber" plectrums I wanted to say that I do agree with Ali about them "replacing the clicks with a dull thud", but I can't agree that they get "much more tone" out of many instruments. Any rubber plectrum I've seen or heard so far always sounded "less" than a (decent) traditional plectrum, both in "real volume" and "perceived volume". 

To be honest, I find the "dull thud" quite disturbing as it's never been part of the sound of a classical mandolin.
By eliminating the typical "click", you no longer have an authentical mandolin sound. 
(Would a harpsichord still sound like a harpichord if the clicks were eliminated?  )

----------


## margora

FWIW, my opinion (having tried all of the above plectrums) is that mostly this is a matter of personal choice and taste. Certainly, in the list of things that can go wrong in a mandolin performance, "clicks" vs. "thuds" are about fifth or sixth-order, as an economist would say (way down the list, in other words). In my experience, if you are sitting, say, 30-50 feet away in the audience, it gets lost in the room ambience, unless you are in a very special room and you have much better hearing. Over time, I have gravitated towards lighter gauge picks because, as it happens, that is what most of the other players in the Providence Mandolin Orchestra use. If we all used heavy-duty Wegen's, I use that (I have a bunch in my pick box at home).

----------


## Embergher

> In my experience, if you are sitting, say, 30-50 feet away in the audience, it gets lost in the room ambience, unless you are in a very special room and you have much better hearing.


Yes, I completely agree: as you go further away those clicks and thuds disappear, but the initial sound you make determines what part of the sound does reach the audience.
So if your plectrum produces fewer high harmonics than is typical for a mandolin, they can't be projected into the concert hall to start with. #
Without these typical high harmonics, it often ends up sounding like a guitar played in the higher positions ... a wonderful sound indeed, but it's not what a mandolin is supposed to sound like ...

The choice of the Providence Mandolin Orchestra seems very logical to me: when speaking of non-TS plectrums, the lighter gauges are generally the ones that produces more high harmonics and sound more like a classical mandolin.

----------


## Ali

Ah-ha - I think we are all falling into the trap of judging the typical combination of strings, pick, make of mandolin AND style of playing! Not just the pick itself!
I have been experimenting alot using musical collegaues as guinea pigs and various acoustics.....and the conclusion is surprising........and dispels many myths about needing a bright metallic sound to project.......
Of course, a mandolin should be sparkly and bright and all those things but it can also have a lovely depth of sound and tone that perhaps it is not always noted for.......this topic is progressing away from picks themselves.....
I think this conversation is far more reaching than simply german style mandolin versus "traditional" style.....which is what seems to have been implied the moment anyone mentioned rubber picks - by the way, they are not rubber, merely a very slightly rubbery material......
Ali

----------


## Linda Binder

As to where to get the Woll picks....I bought mine from Trekel ( trekel.de). #I like the white ones very much but still mostly use the Tortis picks on the Pandini. #I have two tortise picks but one is too thick and the other too thin... #The Tortis is just right! --A Goldilocks moment.
The blue Woll was too soft, but what a stunning color. # I was tempted to make earrings out of them, but a mandocellist in the orchestra who tried it loves it so now I only have one. #The white Woll produces a really pleasing sound. #It gives a little more body to the tone than most other picks but, in my opinion, it still has brightness. # As to where to get a Ranieri style pick... I think making one is about your only option. #There was a very good thread on just how to do that.

----------


## Linda Binder

I'd love to try one of these traditional Italian models...0-160 b.p.m. in sixty seconds or less.

----------


## Embergher

Hello Ali, 
I'm sure you don't mind these replies ... it's just because I think we agree more on this subject than what appears from the previous posts ...




> Ah-ha - I think we are all falling into the trap of judging the typical combination of strings, pick, make of mandolin AND style of playing! Not just the pick itself!


I'm sorry, but I don't see it as a trap ... according to the title of the thread, we have been discussing the "classical style plectrum", but I think we all agree that the total sound is made by the combination of mandolin, plectrum, strings, and - in my opinion for at least 50%: the player's technique. However, the plectrum is quite important.




> I have been experimenting alot using musical collegaues as guinea pigs and various acoustics.....and the conclusion is surprising........and dispels many myths about needing a bright metallic sound to project.......


Here is a little confusion about what I said about projection: I never said we need "a" bright sound "to be able" to project ... but we need "the" bright sound (typical for the mandolin) "to be projected" into the concert hall. And of course a mandolin can never project what isn't there ... 




> Of course, a mandolin should be sparkly and bright and all those things but it can also have a lovely depth of sound and tone that perhaps it is not always noted for.......


I absolutely agree ... both brightness and depth of sound should be possible on the same instrument, with the same strings and plectrum.




> this topic is progressing away from picks themselves.....
> I think this conversation is far more reaching than simply german style mandolin versus "traditional" style.....which is what seems to have been implied the moment anyone mentioned rubber picks - by the way, they are not rubber, merely a very slightly rubbery material......


The German style implies indeed much more than just another plectrum (whatever material it is made of). They also use different instruments with strings that prevent the mandolin from making a bright sound, and a different technique. It's very well thought of ... no risk of making a bright sound on the mandolin ... as they call it: only "full and warm tones"!

----------


## margora

"The choice of the Providence Mandolin Orchestra seems very logical to me: when speaking of non-TS plectrums, the lighter gauges are generally the ones that produces more high harmonics and sound more like a classical mandolin."

Except that none of play bowlbacks, and lighter here is not light by European standards, and (speaking only for myself) trying to achieve a sound "more like a classical mandolin" is not a specific goal in mind, since it would be inappropriate to quite a lot of the music we play.

----------


## margora

"Without these typical high harmonics, it often ends up sounding like a guitar played in the higher positions ... a wonderful sound indeed, but it's not what a mandolin is supposed to sound like ..."

Depends on the music one is playing.

----------


## Embergher

> Except that none of play bowlbacks, and lighter here is not light by European standards, and (speaking only for myself) trying to achieve a sound "more like a classical mandolin" is not a specific goal in mind, since it would be inappropriate to quite a lot of the music we play.





> Depends on the music one is playing.


Well, if we're not talking about classical mandolins or classical mandolin music, there's no need for "the classical mandolin sound" ... which is what I thought this thread was about.

----------


## margora

"Well, if we're not talking about classical mandolins or classical mandolin music, there's no need for "the classical mandolin sound" ... which is what I thought this thread was about." 

I thought we were talking about the types of picks we used.

Anyway, if one's definition of "classical mandolin sound" or "classical mandolin music" refers to music composed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries primarily in Italy, Belgium, etc. plus the considerable quantity of modern Japanese pastiches in this style then I certainly agree that Ralf's point of view is legitimate. This is also the point of view that Paul Sparks expresses in his book. To me the legitimacy derives from the fact that the composers of such music had this sound ideal in mind and one should, at the very least, be mindful of compositional intent. One should not do so slavishly, however, and this is different, in any case, from assertions about projection and so forth which as Ms. Stephens rightly points out, are, or may be, highly suspect on empirical grounds.

With regard to the PMO, with one exception (Calace's "Impressioni Orientali", which is hardly representative) we play none of this music. To perform a modern German work with a "classical mandolin sound" as Ralf has described, IMHO, would simply be wrong. Some of the pieces that we play, such as the Kioulaphides concerto, sound fine either way, again, IMHO.

----------


## Linda Binder

I dont mean to run over anyones dogma with my karma, but I think it can be acknowledged that there is variation in what is considered correct and/or desirable in classical mandolin tone. #A dogmatic allegiance to a certain way of doing things is, of course, a long tradition in classical music and I have a certain amount of respect for that... #I think it just means people A) care a lot about the sound theyre producing. #B) have a clear idea of what that sound should be like and C) think theyve found the means to produce it. #On the other hand..I listen to Caterina Lichetnbergs playing (German instrument, pick, strings, training.) and I LOVE what I hear. #I listen to Carlo Aonzos playing (Italian instrument, strings, heart and soul) and I LOVE what I hear. #Ive never had a moment of thinking Gee, if only Carlo were using a Knorr mandolin or Ah, Caternina would be sound so much better if only shed trade in those Thomastiks for a set of Dogals. #The German school is well established enough that I dont think it can be dismissed as incorrect because its of more recent development. #I also dont think members of the German school should tout their way of doing things as the only correct way of approaching classical mandolin, as some have been known to do. #I guess I favor a certain amount of growth, development and experimentation as a healthy approach to musical expression, even in the Classical realm. #This, of course, doesnt lend itself to an easy answer to What kind of pick should I use for classical music. #

----------


## Embergher

> I thought we were talking about the types of picks we used.


Yes, but as the title of the thread says: "classical style plectrums". 




> To perform a modern German work with a "classical mandolin sound" as Ralf has described, IMHO, would simply be wrong. #Some of the pieces that we play, such as the Kioulaphides concerto, sound fine either way, again, IMHO.


I will not easily perform modern German works, but only because I don't like most of them. However, if I do like one, and I find it suitable for my type of instrument, I see no problem in playing it, as I don't see any problem in playing Bach or other violin music, which was also composed for a different instrument. For the same reason I have no problem with Bach played on guitar, etc ...
Even violin players, who have an enormous high quality repertoire, play transcriptions ... why not ... 

I have only one problem with the German mandolin school: Those who have (in recent years) completely modified the sound and technique of the classical mandolin, think they can just ignore the complete history of players and master luthiers of the past 150 years and teach this new method as being the only correct classical style. Of course, by now, things have developed so far that you can't blaim the new generation of that school, who have never known anything else and didn't have the opportunity to choose when they started to play mandolin. I've heard of several players who have been to masterclasses in Germany with their italian mandolin and plectrum, and were being laughed at and made fun of ... #the situation is getting a bit better nowadays, but it's still sad when such things happen.

----------


## Ali

Very well and eloquently said: Robert and Linda - ultimately it comes down to personal taste.
Long live free choice and diversity in every walk of life!
Ali

----------


## Embergher

Once again, it's the world upside down ... people who continue a tradition are being told that what they're doing is wrong.
This is not hearsay, it's my own experience: twenty years ago I have had mandolin lessons from people who told me that I shouldn't use that long TS plectrum anymore because it makes too many side noises and I was given this "rubbery" plectrum. For some reason I also had to change the position of my left hand into a guitar position. I was recommended to put a hot iron on the 4 last frets and remove them, because they were in the way for the plectrum and I wouldn't need them anymore ... if I had to play those high notes, they would sound equally well without the fret.
The brass wound strings I was using were no good and had to be replaced by flatwound strings. For the time being, I could continue to use my Embergher mandolin, but it would be better if I looked out for a mandolin that would also be suitable for classical music. I would also need a footstool, and put both feet on it, which would be the only way to hold the mandolin properly ... #This is what I've been told on my first mandolin lesson with this teacher at the music school, after I played Calace's Moto Perpetuo during the audition.
And this kind of manipulation is what happened to hundreds of people in the 1980s. #
I'm now very happy that after a few lessons I've had the guts to say "no, I won't do this, I rather quit these lessons and get no diploma, and continue with the private lessons of my own teacher!" Almost all players in Belgium switched to this new method and if I had done so too, there would have been very little chance that you would ever have heard of a Roman plectrum and that the Roman plectrum technique would have continued to be passed on from one person to another.
I can assure you, you'd have a different view on the situation, if you had experienced all this and seen what happened to so many players over all these years, and found Embergher mandolins with a modified flat fingerboard, heavy flat wound strings and a sunk table ...

Now, after so many years, when this new method has been well established, the situation is reversed and I'm being accused of not accepting the German mandolin school as an "improvement". Only because I'm defending and trying to keep alive an old Italian mandolin school, people say that I'm "offending" the new German school! 
I don't blaim any of today's players who are only doing their best to make the best possible music on their instrument. They can't help what happened and should by all means continue and have confidence in what they're doing. 
I also can't change what happened, but I can't lie about the facts and will never accept lies about them either. No one can blaim me for preventing an old tradition from being ignored and replaced by a new one.

However, I'm not at all alone in this ... I know many people who know the situation exactly and fully agree with me, but I understand not everyone can afford to speak openly about it: a lot of them have to make a living with the mandolin and can't risk not to be accepted in the European mandolin world for some reason.

So, yes indeed, "long live free choice", only pity English isn't my first language so I can't say all this very eloquently.
Finally, as with so many things - and I really hate to say so - it often comes down to "making money". 

I will follow the example of the wiser members of this board and say no more about this matter. They're absulotely right: it's a waste of time.
So please go on and continue with the real subject of this thread. Actually it was #*"Where to get"* a classical style plectrum. #

----------


## MLT

Ralf, 

As I was the one who started this thread, I would like to say two things. First, I believe that your english is very eloquent and you make a very good point. Secondly, thank you for pointing out the original intent of this thread, which is *where can I get a classical style plectrum*. Albeit I was very inefficient in my own english, but I had hoped that the picture helped. It was never my intent to start such a deep discussion on schools and styles--especially since I do not believe I have the appropriate depth of knowedge to have an opninion.

I beieve that I understand now that these are considered "Roman" and the fact remains that I would still like to know where to acquire (get) one so that I can try it out.

Thank you all.

----------


## Linda Binder

Ralf, I have great respect for you. #I'm sure everyone on this board does. #You've educated people about a school of mandolin playing that was, and is, in danger of being completely forgotten, which is astonishing given the beauty of the music that can be made with it, as evidenced by your own performances. You are not alone in having to suffer through dogmatic, pedantic teachers, the bane of students everywhere. #In my studies on violin I've had my bowhold completely "remade" three times because -- "You'll never be able to play with power and conviction with your Belgian style bowhold" (Although evidently Ysaye did OK ) Next it was "Your Russian bowhold is holding back the expressive potential of your bowstroke"(although Heifetz did OK with it) #and now I can't even remember what the next "correct" method was...French maybe?. #I think I ended up with an international hybrid! #My problem is when people say "The method I adhere to is THE way" instead of "A" way of playing. I'm not in any way saying the German school is an improvement. #I'm saying it results in a very different sound but I believe that sound is also relevant. #I'm not sure you agree with me on that. #One method doesn't need to replace another. #There are different desirable sounds...it's simply another way of being a musician on the mandolin.

----------


## Linda Binder

MLT, are you planning to use a Roman plectrum on your Breedlove? #A second Pandora's box awaits opening....

----------


## Linda Binder

&lt;&lt;&lt;As to where to get the Woll picks....I bought mine from Trekel ( trekel.de)
As to where to get a Ranieri style pick... I think making one is about your only option. #There was a very good thread on just how to do that. &gt;&gt;&gt; 

Can someone provide a link to that thread for MLT? #I don't know how to that. #Ralf and Alex were instrumental in providing the information in that thread I recall.

----------


## MLT

Linda, 

Yes and No. Actually I am on Brian Dean's list with anticipated delivery of a Cytole style semi-bowl next summer. #

I am very excited, just haven't put it out on any the boards.

But, I thought I would like to get a feel for this style of pick.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Linda and others,

Here you can see how a Roman plectra can be made. 
Click here for the link.

The celluloid tortoise shell imitation material we use can be bought from Stewart-MacDonald in the USA.


Many Greetings, 

Alex

----------


## Linda Binder

Thanks Alex! #I find myself confused at the moment about Ranieri and Roman plectra. #How is a Ranieri different?

----------


## MLT

Thank you Alex, Linda, and Others, 

I will really think about the prospect of making one. I have the tools, just not sure I have the patience.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

> Thanks Alex! #I find myself confused at the moment about Ranieri and Roman plectra. #How is a Ranieri different?


Hello Linda,

I had overlooked your question, but here I am with a reply:

Towards the end of the 19th. century there were Roman mandolinists who used the long two pointed plectrum that we are discussing here. Later Luigi Embergher advertised this kind of plectra in his catalogues with the indication *'Sistema Romano "Embergher"*  selling them through his shop in Rome. 

The Plectra known to have been used by the Roman mandolinist Silvio Ranieri differ only in size; a Ranieri plectrum is up to resp. circa 65mm long, with a 18mm. width and a thickness of about 2,5mm. That is, when they are new, of course, while the original Embergher plectra that have 'survived' (Giannino Cerrone donated six Embergher plectra on a selling card with the imprint "Plettri sistema Embergher" to the Embergher - Cerrone museum) #measure 45mm x 15 x 2mm. These six are not of the best quality but nevertheless give an insight to the matter. 

That the Embergher plectra were of a slightly smaller size I experienced myself, for back in the early 70-ties I bought an Embergher mandolin with 5 long tortoise shell plectra that were put away in the little box of the case that came with the instrument. These old plectra were excellently polished and beautiful symmetrical shaped. All of them being of a slightly smaller size than a 'Ranieri' plectrum. The excistance of the latter's model I learned some ten years later because of an excellent technical drawing (with all the measurements) of a plectrum described as _"Measurements of a pectrum for mandolin, mandola and mandoloncello; after a model by Silvio Ranieri"_ in the book 'Geschiedenis van de mandoline', p. 240, by Robert Janssens (publ. 1982). Then, that source was my only reference to a 'Ranieri' plectrum. 

Therefore I think that if both plectra are compared, the shape and #size of a new made original 'Embergher' plectrum would have been about 60mm long, 13 to 15 mm wide and about 2mm thick at the in the middle (where these plectra are at their thickest). They are very elegant and light to play with.


Attached below is a photo showing 2 of the 5 old tortoise shell plectra mentioned above, together with a larger one made from celluloid, that will give you a good idea of it all.

Now I have learned more, and I think the name *Roman Plectrum* is a good and perhaps even the best indication, so that people will know that this plectrum kind is the long two pointed plectrum. How long, wide and thick is a personal matter and is less important. # 
So that is why I use the name *Roman Plectrum* for this type. And fortunately there is a fine quality celluloid tortoise shell immitation material that matches excellently the original Tortoise shell of the nowadays protected turtles.


Many greetings, 

Alex

Photo Alex Timmerman: 'Plettri sistema Romano' (shown here in real size) .

----------


## Linda Binder

Thank you for your enlightening answer Alex! # I will follow your lead and refer to this type of plectrum as "Roman" in the future.
Best Regards,
Linda

----------


## Bob A

I'm curious about the different lengths of the illustrated Roman plectra. How dofferent are the playng characteristics? Which length would be best to begin learning th techniques appropriate to this style of pick?

Thanks.

----------


## Jonathan Peck

I just contacted Dave Skowron at Red Bear Trading Co. and he said that he has made a few of these over the years. While he doesn't get many requests for these Ranieri style picks, he can make them for anyone who asks.

----------


## Jim Garber

I am just curious what Dave asks for these and whether there is some range as to thickness.

----------


## Jonathan Peck

Jim, you can contact Dave directly at flatpicks@gmail.com

I will also be happy to pass along any information as I receive it.

----------


## MLT

> I will also be happy to pass along any information as I receive it.


I would be interested in seeing the information that you get. Thanks for doing the investigative work.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Thanks to the voracious appetite of tortoise-shell-eating beetles, I am the happy owner of *both* sizes, small-ish and big-ish.  I love both my Romanesque picks!

Once I wear them down with _my_ voracious appetite for mandolin playing, Alex, I will contact you regarding the synthetic substitute that you recommend. 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jonathan Peck

I just heard back from Dave. He has one made up to the dimensions in the attached picture. It is (approx.) 3mm thick and he is selling it for $35-

----------


## Arto

Alex:
"The celluloid tortoise shell imitation material we use can be bought from Stewart-MacDonald in the USA."

Alex, the link shows pickguard material that is self-adhesive on the other side, and only 0.64 mm thick. Surely thïs is not suitable for making plectrums?

----------


## Jim MacDaniel

This eBay seller was recently selling some Pettine picks for $7.00 each. They don't have any listed now, but it might be worth emailing them if this is the style you are leaning towards.

----------


## mandroid

Heck, file a sharp point on a common pick, and see if thats good enough.. audience is listening to the music not seeing if you got a period correct pick in your fist.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hello Arto,

Yes that is what the link shows but the pickguard material is not that what I use. The Tortoise-celluloid I got from them at the time has a thickness of 2.6mm. From that you can go down to as thin as you like best yourself.


Cheers,

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

Hey! We classical folks made the mainstream! Looks like Red Bear Trading is now making Roman plectra as part of their regular line. Sort of on the thick side tho -- the Leenen model I have seems much thinner than 2.5-3mm, I think.

----------


## Jim Garber

The pick I have is quite thin overall, definitely under 1mm. I asked Dave Skowron if it is possible to sand one of his down to that thinness. I know he will not make his picks that thin. In any case, I may just order one to see how they are and how I would play with it.

----------


## MLT

Having started this thread I am very interested. I normally use a pretty thick pick. But I have also made a few of my own Pettine (style) out of Fender Heavy's based on Marilyn Mair's recent book and found that I like them a lot. 

I really appreciate that Red Bear Trading has created this pick style, but I am really unsure if I can bring myself to spend this much on a pick that I have never even tried the style of before. I am looking forward to Jim's evaluation of the full thickness as well as the sanded down version.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Being quite ignorant, even by the kindest standards, of all the subtle mechanics of the pick, I will hazard a sceptical guess: what _I_ have personally appreciated in Roman picks is at least _some_ degree of flexibility; take that away, and the long pick would, IMHO, become an unwieldy, clunky piece of foreign matter caught up between me and my mandolin. YMMV, of course.

The _Neapolitan_ pick, au contraire, should be rather rigid. In his Method, Calace specified that the pick ought to be _piuttosto dura, inflessibile_. Again, a personal bias, but short-and-rigid does it for me; if a _short_ pick is also _flexible_, I get no sense of leverage, of energy directed into the string. I have a lovely TS Neapolitan (courtesy of St. James Garber, guardian of wayward mandolinists worldwide), which exhibits IMHO the superior combination of shape, size, and appropriate rigidity. If I ever use a Neapolitan pick, that's the one.

Ditto, YMMV...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

The pick I have been playing with is stiff but thin, prob the nature and the ideal qualities of TS. Dave informed me that he would make me a thinner one out of his Tortis material and I am willing to gamble on it. It would be exactly the same shape but thinner than the 2.5-3mm he mentions, still probably thicker than the one I play with. 

I think the control aspect of this pick compares to how a baseball player chokes up or down on the length to get different effects. In any case, I am pretty comfortable playing with mine esp on my Pandini.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

The 2.5 mm thickness (in the middle) of the Roman plectrum is not that important. At least not when one is starting to play with one. What IS important is the thickness of the material at the point(s). Let's say that of the last centimetre towards the point. To begin learning how to play with the Roman plectrum it is best to start with one that is rather thin (also in the middle; about 1 to 1.5mm.). This gives the plectrum a greater flexibility and a greater control over it when playing with it at that learning fase. A nice coincedence is that then it can also be more flat (and not radius) in the middle of the plectrum. This will give more 'grip' and control over it.
The side effect of such a thin plectrum is that it produces (as all thin [and 'floppy' or thick and soft material] plectras) string attack noises. 

Once a better control over the somewhat thin 'beginners' Roman plectrum is gained, a thicker and more rigid one should be taken to improve this playing technick. Once that feels comfortable a thicker one can be taken etc. In the end the string attack noises will have been reduced to almost nothing. 

These gradual steps are needed IMO to master the technick of the playing with the long Roman plectrum. At least that is what I teach my students.

One must also be aware that to achieve the best result knowing HOW to hold the Roman plectrum is of great importance. The plectrum should be held between the thumb and forefinger taking in account the positions of the low right hand wrist and the rest of the fingers. This is often quite different than that what is seen of how players hold all other (shorter) plectrum kinds (Neapolitan kinds, Pettine, etc. etc).

Perhaps it is a good idea to also view some close up playing that you can find here, for instance.


Best, don't give up and success,

Alex

----------


## vkioulaphides

All that makes perfect sense, Alex. Now, for the tricky part: putting good advice into _practice_.  Tonight --as the singers are resting their precious vocal chords prior to opening night, and the orchestra is off-- I will _pretend_ being a mandolinist and try to watch what I'm doing while working on some music.

Scandalously, I am gearing up for --oh, horror of horrors!-- an actual _performance_ later on this spring. But I take consolation in the fact that, at the time of that performance, no *experts* on such matters as these will be in the audience. *Whew!*  

Thanks for the advice. I will work on this. Far wiser, perhaps, to give up on all efforts to improve my playing, and just continue picking away, blissful in my ignorance.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

> Scandalously, I am gearing up for --oh, horror of horrors!-- an actual _performance_ later on this spring. But I take consolation in the fact that, at the time of that performance, no *experts* on such matters as these will be in the audience. *Whew!*


What... are you denying your fans the joy of seeing you perform?? How selfish!

----------


## Jim Garber

Well... I bit the bullet... er.. plectrum... and ordered a Roman plectrum from Red Bear Trading. Dave says he is making some thinner picks in general and will send me a Roman one that will be thinner than what the specs say on his site.

I will report back when I get it.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Eagerly awaiting your report, Jim. Please post-- as I'm sure you will. Better yet *snicker*  we can _get together_ on one of your visits to the city, and I can try said pick hands-on, order one (or more) for myself if I like it, etc.

[As for the performance, I was not selfish but unclear myself; the date was only carved in stone yesterday evening, _after_ my latest post. It will be on June 11, at the China Institute in Manhattan. The performers will be a newfangled trio comprised of Bob Rose and Yours Truly, alternating as 1st/2nd mandolinist, and Steven Antonelli, our staunch bass-liner on mandocello. The program will consist of two Corelli Trio Sonatas, one of Haydn's "Baryton" Trios, a Mozart String Trio, and perhaps some smaller works. One of us will post further details as they emerge.]

OK, back to pick-talk.

----------


## Jonathan Peck

Mine has been shipped and I will likely have it in a day or so. Unfortunately, my report would be worthless, so I'm just happy that Dave has agreed to make these available to anyone who would like to find a traditional styled roman pick. Perhaps with experienced players giving direct feedback, Dave will be able to fine tune these to ready stock to player specs.

As far as the cost is concerned, if not lost or mistreated, they should provide years of service without wearing out or breaking.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Coming from the world of _bowed_ strings --a professional millieu where musicians will gladly pay a few THOUSAND dollars for a quality bow-- I have always found that picks are routinely underestimated, most of all by mandolinists themselves.

No, I do NOT mean that a decent pick ought to cost thousands. Still, a good pick is a VERY crucial part of one's equipment, and ought to be thought of a such. Many picks, of course, of the dime-a-dozen sort, ARE worth, well... a few pennies each. No problem, if you want to stack a handful of them in your backpack, or keep with your extra mando, the one you play at the beach, or lend to your offspring. But as regards my day-in, day-out pick, I wouldn't mind spending a little more, and getting a quality *instrument*-- yes, I DO call the pick deliberately so, just as the violinist considers the bow to be a "core" part of the instrument he/she plays (as opposed, say, to the regularly replaceable horsehair, strings, rosin, etc.)

Then, of course, I try my best not to lose my pick(s).  I wish anyone who offers to make quality mandolin picks, of whatEVER shape and type, all the success they deserve. My pseudo-economist self suggests that, if players were willing to spend a bit more on picks than the dime-a-dozen standard of the local guitar shop, better mandolin picks would be produced by cross-incentive. My $0.02 worth on the _far greater_ worth of a good pick.

----------


## Paul Kotapish

Well said, Victor.

I agree. A few dollars--or even tens of dollars--is money well spent on a pick (plectrum, strumming device, picking unit) that improves ones touch, tone, volume, technique, and/or pleasure in playing.

----------


## Duc Vu

Bump.

----------


## Jim Garber

I guess this post above was a hint for me to post my impressions of the Red Bear Tortis Roman style pick. I have had it for some time but unfortunately have been snowed under with work so barely had time to play.

Here is it side by size with my usual Leenen pick. I have Dave of Red Bear make it thinner than he usually does. I think his usual picks are 2.5-3mm thick with a beveled edge. This one is  1.09 mm which seems about right. I think thinner will make itn prone to breaking. My TS one is thinner tho and gives a little more bite in terms of brightness.

However this Red Bear Tortis one is quite nice and good sounding for a slightly different tone, a hair more mellower. If you wanted to try a Roman style pick this might eb one way to go and I dom like the tone I get from it.

----------


## Duc Vu

Thanks, Jim.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim and others,


The photo of the Roman celluloid 'Tortis' Plectrum made by Red Bear shows a Roman plectrum that still is quite rectangular right across the width of it. At least that is how it looks to me. 

To be sure the advantages of the long Roman Plectrum is understood well, I have made a quick drawing of the plectrum's cross section. Starting at the middle of it towards one of it's two tips at the very end of the plectrum.
The two points must be very smooth and sharp as well as the side(s) of the plectrum. Of course this is especially needed at the sides starting about 1 cm. towards the very point of the plectrum, since that's about the hight where the string will be touched initially by it. 

The idea of it is that after stroking a string-pair with a Roman plectrum the strings always slip of very smoothly, causing as little undesired and irritating background noises of the string(attack) as possible. 



Best regards,

Alex

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Here is a picture of one being made that shows how smooth and sharp towards the very point it should be.


Regards, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

The one I play with is quite thin tho does have a slight bevel. I had Dave make it as thin as possible. Originally I think he made the first ones thicker (close to 3mm) with more of the bevel you show.

I am certainly no expert on playing with these since I just play with it in a way that feels comfortable to me. I look fwd to having a real Roman-style player show me how to get the most of it one of these days.

In any case, I also bought one of Dave's pick-care kits and I an sure that I can work on the bevel on this pick.

----------


## Jason Nagati

I was given the impression that the main advantage of a Roman style plectrum was the speed and control gained during tremolo. If so, a pointed "speed" or sharp pick may also help. I've used a pointed Dunlop stubby. I didn't like it for bluegrass or Celtic, but I could tremble faster for Italian pieces.

Personally, I have a limit to the premium I would pay above an object's material and labor value (I don't own a Wegen). That may change once I start to record, gig, not suck, get rich, etc.

----------


## Bob A

I have to say that I've picked up a number of Wegen picks from the cafe classifieds, and find that they are excellent on both my bowlbacks and my Gibsons. The cost was minimal; the most reccent batch came in a package deal with 53 picks (!) for forty bucks. At least 5 of the picks were Wegens, and there was an ivory pick as well as scores of others. 

I now have enough picks to last thru my current lifetime, and several decades into eternity. Y'all want to come to the post-wake yard sale.

----------


## Jim Garber

Another bump for this thread. In the equipment section a member reports that Vinnie of V-picks has produced some Roman plectra. I ordered a 1mm version in the usual clear acrylic plastic he uses. Here is the thread.

I have been experimenting with a different material and will report back assuming I can get somthing workable. I will also report back on the v-pick version.

----------


## Jim Garber

I received the pick from Vinnie today. It actually is quite nice tho about 1mm smaller in size all around than my Euro-made Roman plectra. The sound is also quite nice. I may order a thicker one (1.5mm) and wonder if  it could be made with a more-pronounced bevel. In other words, that it thins more gradually from the center to the edges?

----------


## MLT

Thanks Jim for the quick review.  

Based on what you are saying about the bevel can we assume that the current bevel/edge is more like standard (I use the term very loosely) guitar/mandolin picks?  What I mean is that the plectrum is basically flat with a quick (or some times gradual) drop to a sharp edge?

----------


## Jim Garber

Exactly -- with quick drop to edge.

----------


## MLT

As I thought.  Thanks for the confirmation Jim.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi all,

For a better understanding of the Roman plectrum I enclose a photo that (hopefully) gives a good idea of what it is about. 

Those Roman plectra with both sides having a compleatly flat surface have the (only) advantage of being easily held between thumb and forefinger. As a disturbing side effect it should be noted that the edge (or better _two_ edges) of this plectrum 'rubs' as it were, against the string(s) causing of course un-wanted noises. This is a dis-advantage of the flat model. However, it is because it's easier to hold, good for people who start to play with the Roman plectrum. 

The slightly convex/radius/conical shape of the 'real' Roman plectrum smoothly descends to its sides. It is (compared with flat plectra) more difficult to handle in the beginning but with enough patience and practise one will soon get used to how to handle it properly. 
The big advantage of this more conical Roman Plectrum model is that while playing with it un-wanted plectrum noises are brought back to an absolute minimum. Due to the polished razor sharp edge of the plectrum the string(s) - when hit - slides smoothly towards the very tip of the plectrum and bounces, so to speak, from the plectrum. Creating what it is only made for: _sound_. 
When playing with it in the proper manner, one will also notiche the wonderful clean overall sound that you can make with it and gaine from your instrument. 
And last but certainly not least; it feels good. 


Good luck, enjoy and best greetings, 

Alex

----------


## Jim Garber

So, I guess I am playing with the transitional model, sort of on the thin side and that the ideal would be a thicker one with that tapering toward the edges. Interesting. I have been attempting (slowly) to smooth out the edges of the thinner of the plastic (Ultem) I bought to make a pick and I am thinking that I may need to use the thicker piece for the next attempt to get that tapering.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Jim,

Yes, that is indeed the case. Try to find celluloid or plastic that, remains rigid towards both tips of the plectrum. Just keep in mind the stiffness of the original material; the tortoise shield of the turtle. The Roman Plectrum _never_ is floppy at it's points. 

I have several old Roman tortoise plectra which I only use very sparingly. They are a little shorter, narrower and rigid (see if I can make a scan for you). And I am always pleasantly surprised what a clear and brilliant sound they produce. 
It's not so simple to explain in words for me, but it's like these plectra can get from your mandolin the sound that has been given to it by its maker. 


good luck,

Alex.

----------


## Jim Garber

I did roughly cut out a piece of this Ultem plastic in the outline and tried it as-is and it sounds quite good, very similar to TS. It is pretty tough stuff and not so easy to hand sand so I will try to use my Dremel tool to do so.

Ultem makes very nice picks: Clayton and Dunlop use this plastic for some of their picks. It also has a similar sound to TS when dropped on a hard surface.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi again Jim,

I have not tried Ultem plastic sofar but it 'sounds' as it may well be a good alternative for TS. It is nice to have several good materials available. 


Cheers,

Alex.

----------


## Eugene

I use Clayton's "Ultem Gold" to fabricate Neapolitan-type plectra using their large triangles as raw material.  Where did you procure a sheet big enough for Roman-type plectra, Jim?

----------


## Roger Mace

Eugene, I tried superglue - I glued the tips of two triangular picks together then laminated them with smaller, thinner picks on both sides (now 4 picks involved), then shaped them (go ahead and laugh - I did :-).  It worked structurally but of course the pick is still small and a bit difficult to control, although the fingertips only have to contend with the original triangular pick's material.  (see attached scan)

But recently I asked Red Bear to make their Tortis Roman pick for me a lot thinner and just received two of them - they are excellent IMHO.  I did slightly shape just the clear side of this pick in the scan for a smoother tremolo.  I find it excellent!  The first Roman pick I got from Red Bear was very thick and hard to hold stable and I rarely used it - but the newer thinner model has great control and plays very well, at least for my fat little fingers.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I use Clayton's "Ultem Gold" to fabricate Neapolitan-type plectra using their large triangles as raw material.  Where did you procure a sheet big enough for Roman-type plectra, Jim?


smallparts.com -- they sell 12"X12" sheets:

1/16" thickness (about 1.58mm)

1/32" thickness (about .80mm) 

So far I cut and smoothed the thinner stuff and it works pretty favorably for playing. I will try the thicker and bevel it more, but the thinner is closer to what I am used to playing right now. The stuff is pretty tough so hand snading takes some time, but it was pretty quick using my Dremel tool. Not perfect, I am sure but so far usable.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is my small but potent  :Smile:  collection of Roman plectra. 

Top to bottom: V-pick, Tortis, Ultem, 3 natural including one "collar stay".

I have to say that the Ultem works quite nicely for me, tho I am no expert in this technique or playing or making these.

----------


## Bob A

What's the thickness on the thinner Red Bear, Roger? Are they making that size generally available? And which of the two is the thinner? (I'm guessing bottom).

Jim's industry and initiative are wonderful to see, but I'm far too lazy to roll my own.

----------


## Jim Garber

I think that the thickness of my red bear is a little over 1mm maybe 1.3mm. I also asked that they made it as thin as possible.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I have Dave of Red Bear make it thinner than he usually does. I think his usual picks are 2.5-3mm thick with a beveled edge. This one is  1.09 mm which seems about right.


I was looking for the info on how thick my Red bear pick is and I did not think to look in this same thread.(see above)

----------


## AlanN

Those picks look impressive. I am *no* classical picker, but those things looks like a bear to hold/use.

----------


## Jim Garber

Alan, if you read thru the thread, the technique is different from a standard pick. You want a loose grip. Roughly speaking, as I understand it, part of it is also similar (sort of) to choking up on a baseball bat. There is also some sort of leverage involved. I am pretty comfortable with it but can switch off and use other picks as well.

These are not for everyone and not even for every classical player. BTW I intend to review my Ranieri method book and see what inspiration I can gather and impart. Silvio Ranieri was one of the foremost proponents of playing with such a plectrum.

----------


## AlanN

Thanks, Jim. You saved me from looking through the thread. So, it's kind of like holding a pencil? Where the bulk of the pick stands above the grip? Interesting.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, Alan-- at least _sort_ of.  :Wink:  In other words, UNlike holding a pencil, the middle finger is NOT used in holding the Roman pick, to the best of my knowledge. (I'm no expert, of course...) But you are right in one, all-important respect: the greater part of the Roman pick is, as you say, _above_ the grip; as it see-saws in the grip, relative to the end that comes in contact with the strings, it automatically refocuses the pick on the strings. That is, IMHO, perhaps THE hallmark of this technique-- which, again, I do _not_ claim to have mastered.  :Confused: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## AlanN

Makes using chopsticks a no-brainer! Thanks.

----------


## Roger Mace

My original Red Bear was about 3 mm - this one is just over 2 mm in the center.  The Ranieri style I made (above picture) is from 1.5mm triangular picks and works surprisingly well.  I would be curious to try a 1 mm Red Bear - I'm sure its strength would be sufficient.  I notice that the Embergher's site directions for making such a pick starts with 2.6 mm tortoise shell material - perhaps that is where Red Bear got their initial directions?

----------


## Jim Garber

As I get deeper into playing with this style of pick, I am leaning now toward using the heavier pick, tho I don't think that the one I prefer is quite that thick. The one I preferred was around .80mm but after playing some I did try a much thicker one and it was a different feel but worked quite nicely on a fater tempo piece of music. I wonder how the thicker one feels for tremelo, tho. 

I think a lot of this has to do with the way the edge is bevelled. I tried reworking my 1.58mm Ultem homemade job but I think I ruined one of the tips bevelled. I may have to make another. They are a real pain since the material is so hard. I had to cut it with a tin snip.

----------


## Roger Mace

I just checked and the original pick material I started out with was D'Andrea Pro-Plec 1.5mm.  Its fairly easy to shape.  I have one end filed to a rather sharp point and the other has a more-or-less softer speed bevel - both points are highly polished.  The concert mistress in our orchestra tried my Rube Goldberg (sp?) last night and was very surprised how well it worked for her tremolo and the tone it pulled from her L&H A.  She normally uses a Pettine but once she adjusted her grip, it seemed to work very well.   I had forgotten my Red Bear but will let her try them next time.

----------


## Jim Garber

A couple of quotes about the use of the plectrum according to Silvio Ranieri in his method book, _L'Art de la Mandoline_:




> The beginner ought to use a rather flexible plectrum which will make it easier for him to learn the tremelo. As soon as the wrist has become suppler, the pupil should use a harder plectrum which produces more volume of sound.





> As emphasized in the case of the thumb and forefinger, all pressure must be avoided from the other fingers. This is the necessary condition for obtaining a fine rich tone.
> 
> The plectrum must be able to oscillate freely and must retain the utmost elasticity.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I just checked and the original pick material I started out with was D'Andrea Pro-Plec 1.5mm.  Its fairly easy to shape.  I have one end filed to a rather sharp point and the other has a more-or-less softer speed bevel - both points are highly polished.


Roger:
I can certainly find materials easier to shape but I have been actually trying to find something that comes closer to TS in sound and playability. IMHO this Ultem has come closest, even closer than the Tortis material that Red Bear uses, which I find duller in sound production tho pleasing for some applications. It even has almost the same plunk as TS when dropped on a hard surface. The thinner sheet I have is easily cut but the 1/16"/1.58mm is more difficult. I shape it roughly (including the edges) with a Dremel tool and then smooth it down with my Red Bear pick shaping kit. I am pleased so far with the results. My thin pick on the first try came out very well.

----------


## vkioulaphides

A finely wrought, Ultem GarberPick ® is safely tucked in my travel-pouch, as we depart for Greece this afternoon. While, under other circumstances, the proverbial Gift Horse Clause should preclude any public comments, I trust that Jim won't object if I offer some upon our return. With the jolly madness that is pre-vacation packing and preparation, I must admit I have not had a chance to try it so far; still, I can already tell that it feels good in the grip, and looks good all around: the beveling also looks and feels fine, although (with Jim's consent) I may do some further, finer filing with the finest-grade sandpaper I can find or maybe not; I am ever in favor of "leaving good enough alone". More, later. Extra-musically, this pick will always carry with it happy  associations of Jim's truly extraordinary generosity, and memories of what promises to be a lovely vacation.

OK, got to catch that plane...  :Smile: 

Cheers to one and all.

Victor

----------


## Eugene

Thanks for the links, Jim.  I'll have to order a sheet for my own Neapolitan-type plectrum fabrication.

----------


## Jim Garber

Victor:
Feel free to adjust that pick to whatever your playing needs require. No ego here. I am but an amateur when it comes to shaping these picks. Luckily I have some real examples to copy.

And have a great vacation!

----------


## Richard Sanabia

[QUOTE=Jim Garber;688396]smallparts.com -- they sell 12"X12" sheets:

1/16" thickness (about 1.58mm)

1/32" thickness (about .80mm) 

Jim, Which flat material are you using from smallparts.com? What a great site! Thanks for the link...

----------


## Jim Garber

Richard:
I first used the thinner since that was closest to the TS pick I use. I tried to copy the shape and bevel closely and, for some reason, it worked very nicely. My first was, so far, the best.

I then made two others -- one for Victor (under deadline) and another for another good friend who plays with this style pick. I also made a third of the thicker material. I tried reworking the thicker one but may have ruined it. I may have to start over on one of those or else re-re-work that first one -- I ruined one of the points.

I may be leaning toward a thicker pick tho. Faster passages work nicely with those, tho tremelo is easier with the thinner one.

BTW I saw this on the smallparts site, so don't wash yours with bleach:



> It is prone to stress cracking in chlorinated solvents.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Greetings, friends.

I am posting from an internet cafe in Rhodes, Greece's southernmost, easternmost major island. I hope the maritime atmo comes through...  :Wink:  I have played the pick Jim was kind enough to make for me for as many hours as I have had available (i.e. away from the beach, and other forms of revelry). It is a fine instrument, and highly compatible with my modern Greek mando. Contrary to my earlier, cautious comments, I have found no reason(s) to further modify this pick; I am ever the one to leave good enough alone. I will play it some more once we return to Athens tomorrow evening.

OK. Off to the Castle of the Grand Master (Rhodes being a medieval city, built and fortified by the Knights Hospitaller, the Johannites of Auverne, of Crusader fame/infamy, vintage 1309, before their most recent relocation to Malta), then off to the nearest beach.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Bob A

I still regret not buying that statue of a black bird, some years ago. If it's still languishing in a local antique shop, you might want to give it a look, Victor.

----------


## Treble in mind

I notice that there's now a Neopolitan style plectrum shown on the Red Bear site.  Have any of you ordered these?  If so, what gauge did you order (Dave leaves the choice of gauge on these totally open, unlike the "stock"  gauge for his Roman plectrum)?   

In a similar vein (artery? capillary?), could someone please tell me the gauge of the Pettine picks?   Thank you!

----------


## vkioulaphides

As this is my first post-vacation post, and while memory (both auditory and tactile) is still fresh, a few words on the Ultem pick that Jim was kind and generous enough to send me before we departed: BINGO! It is a fine, perfectly workable Roman pick, and does the job admirably. It needed none of the heavy (i.e. file- or sandpaper-grade) work that Jim graciously allowed me to put into it, had I wished to; only very minor, light-handed buffing.

While hardly destitute, my parents always practiced --and still do-- that maniacal, compulsive frugality typical of Mediterranean bourgeois; more flatteringly, perhaps, they were environmentalists well before the concept even existed!  :Wink:  Thus nothing was ever cast out entirely: old corduroy pants, for example, once stripped of their ridged texture by wear and tear, had their legs sliced, calamari-like, which slices were then redeployed as (ideal!) appliers of polish on furniture, dusters of mirrors, ledge-drapes on window-sills, etc., etc. So, I buffed the pick, "picking" to and fro, on not one but _several_ such scraps of loose, used-to-be-garment matter that I found floating abundantly about the apartment, bringing the beveled edge to a super-SUPER-fine smoothness that made the mandolin sing like a nightingale-- my own ham-fisted inadequacy notwithstanding.

So, all in all, kudos (and many thanks) to Jim. The pick both _felt_ and _sounded_ juuuuuuuuuust fine.  :Smile: 

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

You are quite welcome, Victor. I am glad to make the deadline for you to take that. I have a feeling that it comes somewhat close to the organic variety ... certainly closer to the credit card plastic otherwise engaged.

----------


## vkioulaphides

> I still regret not buying that statue of a black bird, some years ago. If it's still languishing in a local antique shop, you might want to give it a look, Victor.


Alas, no sighting(s) of said avian statue, Bob...  :Frown:  Trinkets on sale ranged, as usual, from the forgivably tasteful to the unabashedly ghastly. The embroidery theme of choice seems to have been olives, olive branches, olive leaves, and the like, so we purged our purses of all their contents in order to procure our large and loving families their respective runners, tablecloths, curtains, doilies, what-have-you, all olive-themed and jolly. No birds, though...

On a more musically productive note, I _did_ find some lovely folk music involving mandolin(s), and will take a more careful, "editorial" look at it as soon as time allows, and jet-lag subsides. Better yet, I actually _heard_ some wonderful, local, Dodecannesian tunes, as hummed by our octagenarian neighbor in her interior courtyard, while attending to her daily chores. More so than either printed or recorded music, THAT's the stuff that gets me excited to pun pen to paper!

As is often the case, I have spent much of this year beating my brains, debating Project A vs Project B, vis-a-vis my GrecoMando Editions issue of 2009; I now foresee Project *C* as the most likely to materialize.  :Laughing:  *sigh* So much for planning...

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Jim Garber

I always learn something from your posts, Victor, tho I often have to run to the reference sites:



> Do·deca·nese (do dek′ə nēz′, -nēs′)
> group of Greek islands in the Aegean, off the SW coast of Turkey: 1,048 sq mi (2,714 sq km); pop. 163,000

----------


## vkioulaphides

I'm glad that my posts, inane as they often are, contain a morsel of information here and there, even accidentally.  :Wink:  (I also apologize that I --old fashioned character that I am-- may have led you astray with my 1960's spelling of Dodecan*n*ese, as in Pelopon*n*ese, which is now simplified, with only one "n".) Indeed, Greece's 6,000+ islands are grouped into the Cyclades ("circle-like"), the islands of the Argosaronic Gulf (nearest to Athens), Crete (+ satellites), the Sporades (the "scattered" ones), the Dodecanese ("twelve-island" group), the islands of the Northern Aegean (right across the west coast of Asia Minor, Turkey), and the Ionian Islands, between Greece and Italy, also known as Heptanese ("seven-island" group). Hard to keep track of SO many bits and pieces of rock sticking out of the water...  :Confused: 

But I must return to topic: yes, Ultem felt and sounded as close to tortoise-shell as I can imagine; it was comfortable to handle, and played evenly across all strings, and on all registers. Better yet, I am happy to report that I did NOT lose this pick  :Wink:  --such losses being dreadfully common during vacations-- and that I have left it safely tucked under the strings of my trusty Greek mando, awaiting my next visit in March. For the information of all those reading this post, this is a a bright and chirpy instrument, built by/for Pavlos Kevorkian in 2001, strung with Lenzner "Consort" strings. My comments therefore apply to that particular combination of factors-- although, of course, I would hope they also hold some broader, more "universal" applicability.

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Chris Berardi

> I notice that there's now a Neopolitan style plectrum shown on the Red Bear site.  Have any of you ordered these?  If so, what gauge did you order (Dave leaves the choice of gauge on these totally open, unlike the "stock"  gauge for his Roman plectrum)?   
> 
> In a similar vein (artery? capillary?), could someone please tell me the gauge of the Pettine picks?   Thank you!


I'm looking at getting one of these new picks soon -- I'm thinking 1.5-2 mm thickness.

----------


## dave17120

I'm probably a bit late to 'pick' up on this discussion........ but thought you might find this interesting. Its a page from the 1901 Thibouville Lamy catalogue........ nuff said.......

----------


## Jim Garber

You are never too late, Dave. Nice to hear from you once again. That is an interesting page. I have seen and posted a page with American plectra including that tri point one but don't recall if the Roman style ever really made it over here. I like that pick purse but do they mention the sort of corrugated pick that is picture in that purse?

I also like the french term médiators.

----------

