# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Why do you play?

## sixwatergrog

Why do you play traditional music?  What joy do you get from it?  What motivates you? I'd like to hear from anyone who plays trad, but especially those who started as adults. Thanks.

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## chriss

Peace.  Joy.  The music is timeless.  The progressions, rhythms, and melodies have stayed in circulation cuz they feel good.  
A morning/evening with friends, maybe a beer or whiskey.

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## fatt-dad

therapy and fellowship.  It's quite an experience playing old-time fiddle tunes with a dozen or more folks too.

f-d

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## Eddie Sheehy

It's in my blood.  I can't help myself...

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## tburcham

Usually for my supper, but from time to time we actually get paid...in tens of dollars (-;

Seriously, because it puts a smile on my face and the fellowship is wonderful!

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## Sandy Beckler

The sense of accomplishment when you have worked through a tune and it sounds good.....(to me)  (and to piss off my wife)

Sandy

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## Galimando

To see my enemies driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

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## Bertram Henze

Because if I don't, I feel empty and depressed. How could I not play?

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## Japhy

I do it because I have to. After discovering ITM/Celtic everything else pretty much became irrelevant. I envy all you cats that actually have someone to play this music with. It's a barren wasteland of traditional musicians where I live.

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## wildpikr

Stress relief.

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## Bertram Henze

We are here because we have a common problem...

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## John Flynn

I posted these lists a long time ago, but they are still valid for me:

Why I Play (not necessarily in any priority order)
1. To simply enjoy playing music
2. To play music I enjoy (not the same as #1)
3. To enjoy fellowship with other musicians
4. To occasionally play for audiences and when I do, to create a meaningful experience for them
5. To generate internal feelings of accomplishment and personal satisfaction
6. To celebrate and continue the true spirit of musical traditions I care about
7. To be able to pass on the joy of playing to others, by helping them work on their playing when they ask for my help
8. To communicate ideas and feelings I have that I cannot express adequately any other way
9. To more actively be involved in my religious faith (church music)
10. To keep my brain working as I grow older
11. Because I can!

Not why I play (at least I hope it’s not)
1. Not to make money (not that there’s anything wrong with that, it’s just not my thing)
2. Not to be better than anyone else
3. Not to sound like anyone else
4. Not to impress other people 
5. Not as an excuse to buy the “hardware” (MAS)
6. Not to preserve any dogmatic ideas of traditionalism in music

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## Steve Ostrander

> To see my enemies driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women.


Wins the prize for best answer  :Smile:

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## sixwatergrog

Thanks. Keep the responses coming. I'm working on a blog post tentatively titled "The Joys of Learning Music As An Adult" or "Why I Play Traditional Music". Seeing other people's reasons for playing is helping me understand and articulate my own motivations. Cheers.

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## Denny Gies

Fun, getting to meet neat people, challenges to learn and improve, love the sounds of the instruments, enjoyment, tension outlet....I could go on and on but I'm going to pick now.

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## Bertram Henze

> To see my enemies driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women.


Interesting... wasn't Conan the Barbarian abducted as a child and forced to do hard labour until, as an adult, he picked up the sword to take revenge?

Well, I had to learn to play the violin and practice every day as a boy, until, as an adult I swore to never play music again. But then I saw this mandolin in a shop window...
My old violin is hanging from the wall today, bridge and soundpost rolling around inside, one E-string holding the tailpiece, powerless to ever play again...  :Cool:

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## Dan Hulse

I need to.

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## Jim Garber

> Thanks. Keep the responses coming. I'm working on a blog post tentatively titled "The Joys of Learning Music As An Adult" or "Why I Play Traditional Music". Seeing other people's reasons for playing is helping me understand and articulate my own motivations. Cheers.


It also might be nice if you would share your thoughts as well.

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## pefjr

In most cases and certainly in my case, seeds were planted in the fertile child's mind back when parents ruled. Today they grow and bud and flower in a linguistic expression that is pleasing to the ear. In some cases only pleasing to my ear. Yesterday afternoon I started playing a familiar melody, but not familiar enough to remember the words or the title, but enough to play a verse.  I haven't heard this melody for years, but it is a sweet one. It just surfaced from the back of the hard drive and now it will bug me until the full memory comes forth. In the meantime I am having fun jazzing  it up and down the fretboard.

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## JeffD

> To see my enemies driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women.


 :Laughing:

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## JeffD

The reasons why I play are spattered all over this forum, in various threads and my blog postings.

But the reason may be that my Dad would not let me open his ukulele case unless he was around, and then only to look. And I would watch as he reverently took that Martin Concert uke out, and got a green felt pick, and that little pitch pipe, his movements as practiced as any ritual. There was magic happening, and I wanted in.

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## JeffD

> I envy all you cats that actually have someone to play this music with. It's a barren wasteland of traditional musicians where I live.


Are these of any help? 

http://bluegrassbanjo.org/jams.html http://www.folkjam.org/local/map

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## Mark Robertson-Tessi

The natural high.

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## sixwatergrog

> It also might be nice if you would share your thoughts as well.


Sure:
I like the circular nature of the tunes; how they go round and round in a continuous curve that never ends. 

I like the symmetry of the tunes – AABB.  It’s all patterns and pattern recognition.

I like how it’s not a modern music.  It’s timeless.  The ultimate indie music; not trendy or popular.  There’s no marketing behind it.  It’s not a product of mass media.

I like how the tunes are purely musical, not verbal.

I like how tabbing out an arrangement from the “dots” on a page stimulates my brain like a book or crossword puzzle.

I like how it’s not a performance.  I’m playing for myself; not for others.  I don’t have to impress other people.

I like how with a little bit of practice you can quickly become a participant and contributor to your local scene, while at the same time you can always learn more.

I like how you get several opportunities to play this music with different people from all backgrounds and age groups.  It’s an interesting and enjoyable scene to be part of.

I like how you learn a common repertoire that allows you to go anywhere in the world and sit in on a jam or session.

I like the inclusiveness of the traditional music community - ordinary folks, not just the gifted and flashy, can make music together.  

I like the communal approach to creating sound.  Everyone plays in unison.

I like how personality, friendliness and etiquette are just as important as musical competence.

I like how it’s not prone to hero-worship; beginners and mentors/experts often play side by side.

I like how you don’t have to sound like anyone else or compare your playing with professionals or any other player.  You can do it your own way.

I like how the goal of most players is to simply be a competent amateur and not a professional, paid musician or entertainer.

I like how you also learn about musicology, history and folklore through your association traditional music.

I like how it increases you understanding and appreciation of music in general, even music you don’t play.

I like how it can be as non-intellectual or as intellectual as you want it to be.

I like how you learn through the medium of the tune rather than through scales and exercises.  

I like how you experience the music organically via real life music making and not just through formal theory and practice.

I like how it’s a type of music you can play your whole life.  

I like how it’s acoustic – no power needed when the coming apocalypse happens.

I like how it’s built-in entertainment and a creative outlet.

I like how the abundance of audio and transcriptions available online makes it easier than ever to get tunes and learn at your own pace.

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AnneFlies

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## rgray

> Why do you play traditional music?  What joy do you get from it?  What motivates you? I'd like to hear from anyone who plays trad, but especially those who started as adults. Thanks.


Why I started mandolin at 50? - I liked the sound, keep life fresh and exercise the few remaining brain cells.
Why traditional music? - The sound of a jig makes my heart leap.  (I guess my dad's Irish side beat out my mother's Indian side.)   Overall contentment.  Works well as a solitary activity given my somewhat isolated home and working hours.  (With full appreciation for those who enjoy playing with others.)
What joy do I get?  Joy in its most basic form.
What motivates me?  Pure pleasure and a sense of peace.

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## greg_tsam

> To see my enemies driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women.





> Interesting... wasn't Conan the Barbarian abducted as a child and forced to do hard labour until, as an adult, he picked up the sword to take revenge?


Yes and no.  He picked up the OM with the optional bayonet attachment first and later transitioned to the sword.

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## Eddie Sheehy

I thought he played the Bazooka...

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## JeffD

> Sure:
> I like the ...   ...   ...  ...


I love everything you said. The only addition I could add, two things: 

the thrill of being an important link in a chain stretching way back in time.

that this music respects its elders, so if I have any thought of wanting to be respected when I become an elder, this is where it is most likley to happen.

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## Vigee

Simple answer: to share thoughts and emotions with other people and appreciate their culture.

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## abuteague

Someone gave me a mandolin they inherited from a music teacher that past away on the condition that I learn to play it. I felt obligated to give it a good try.
Later I started playing with others so I started to play to be part of the community.
Now I play because I like to.

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## greg_tsam

I play so that by the time I'm an old man I can amuse myself.

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AnneFlies

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## John Kelly

Being Scottish and living here all my life and in close proximity to Ireland too.  Grew up listening to it and then playing it later.  All the reasons the other posters have said too.

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## Bertram Henze

> I like the communal approach to creating sound.  Everyone plays in unison.
> ....
> 
> I like how you dont have to sound like anyone else or compare your playing with professionals or any other player.  You can do it your own way.


That post is more than a sum of bullet points: these two should contradict, but the magic of ITM lets them coexist.

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## Bertram Henze

> ...that this music respects its elders, so if I have any thought of wanting to be respected when I become an elder, this is where it is most likley to happen.


The difference is not that other genres don't respect their elders. The difference is that their elders are dead.  :Cool:

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## Vigee

Oops! I forgot one major reason: to get free beer at the Irish pub.

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## JeffD

> The difference is not that other genres don't respect their elders. The difference is that their elders are dead.


Now now. 

All traditional music, OT, IT whatever, is passed down.  I wrote in my blog "Fiddlers now old, learned in their youth from fiddlers who were then old, who in their youth learned from the experienced fiddlers they knew and so on back and back and back."

Thats a great thing. Not many places in our culture where the young seek out the old to go about learning something.

And what of that. Death. I am not amazing enough at anything to be remembered long. I remember writing: 

"My source of inspiration?

I saw a show on geneology, and heard this woman talking about her great great grand uncle, from Eastern Kentucky, who 'invited fiddlers and banjo players over to his house and played all night.' That is all she could find. It was the only thing that lasted through time, but it was enough to make him immortal.

So my inspiraion is to be that long distant relative to future generations as yet unborn, who, 100 years hense, will be able to point way back up the family tree to "quirky uncle Jeff, Grandma Athalia's cousin twice removed (once for cause), who played music on the mandolin, of all things, and sometimes all night long."

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## Bertram Henze

I was thinking of classical music.

Traditional folk music genres, OTOH, are quite similar in respecting contemporary elders who don't have to be superstars. I'd like to distinguish "local respect" from "remote respect" or "global respect", all of them 4-dimensional (for instance, I might be tempted to respect my own future self, but that would not count as "elder").

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## Richard Eskite

When I was a kid in junior high, the local high school bagpipe band put on a presentation for us in the auditorium.  When I heard them march in, the hair on the back of my neck stood up.  I had to learn how to do this!  I joined up and played the pipes my whole time in high school.  We went all up and down the East Coast every summer, went to Scotland twice, marched down the Royal Mile and played at the Tattoo at Edinburgh Castle.  It was an amazing series of experiences I will never forget.  Although I find the highland pipes difficult to deal with these days, having an instrument suited to this music I learned in my youth has been really wonderful.  I just with I hadn't waited 40 years to start.

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## Randi Gormley

So many great answers -- it made the music on the page come alive (I learned from books before I sat in my first session), the thrill I get from playing for dancers, for the friendship and comraderie of a range of people whose lives all touch at this one point, for the sheer excitement of getting caught up in a whirl of sound and fury, for laughter and jokes, for expanding my expectations of myself and for the looks on the faces of kids who see us play in their schools and the looks on the faces of senior citizens we visit.

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## SincereCorgi

> Oops! I forgot one major reason: to get free beer at the Irish pub.


Ha, somebody beat me to it.

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## 250sc

I play music to keep my mind sharp. I always have at least 4 or 5 new concepts that I'm working on which keeps me learning and mentally engaged.

Related Story: Up to about 18 years ago I supported myself and family by playing music. I worked with the same dance band for over 17 years and worked constantly. (We would take two weeks off here or there for vacation but we normaly played at least 5 nights a week) When I "got a real job" my wife was suprise (and at least a little disapointed) that I still insisted on practicing every day. I have to admit that it wasn't easy to explain why I've always been driven to learn more about music and feel compelled to continue learning but it is so much of my life that she accepted the fact that it is a large part of who I am.

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## michaelpthompson

Because the music is there, crying out to be played. Somehow, Irish TRAD reaches across generations, national borders, cultures, or any other boundary like no other music seems to do. I don't recall anyone who ever heard it played who said they didn't appreciate it on some level.

I especially like the reasons given by sixwatergrog, but I identify with Mandolindian. My family is only a little Irish by background, we're more English and Scottish and Welsh, but somewhere along the line, the Irish part seems to have beat up all the others and taken dominance. So this is my music, and I belong to it.

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## Tim2723

I'm in it for the money.  There are enough 'Irish' pubs around to make real money here.  If they were Italian restaurants I'd pretend to be Italian.  Not that I don't love the music, I do, but I love lots of music.  I've played a dozen different genre over the years, but I play what pays at a particular time.

Often when we talk about 'professional' musicians we actually mean celebrities.  But 99% of professionals aren't ever known.  When you play trombone in a pit orchestra on Broadway you perform the score they put in front of you.  Whether or not you like the show is irrelevant because there's 100 other guys with trombones in line behind you.  So the fact that I really like Irish music is a big plus for me.

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## whistler

I play primarily to maintain the calluses on my fngertips.

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## JeffD

> I play primarily to maintain the calluses on my fngertips.



 :Laughing:  Works for me.


Actually I play in order to justify paying $35 for a pick.

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## Beanzy

*Why do you play?* 

Because they said they won't unlock the door until I can play something well.



Apart from that, because music really is the breath of life and happiness for me. If I get diverted from it I'm not as happy a person as when I just give myself up to the music. It's part of me and I need to just accept that and make it the best part of me. I used to try to see if I could justify the time spent on it, after all it all stops at the grave and I doubt I'll be good enough to be leaving my mark on posterity with it. But the alternative is to deny a really important part of what makes me who I am. At 46 I'm too old for excuses like work taking priority, so I better just get on and enjoy it.

 :Coffee:

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## AnneFlies

I play my mandolin because I enjoy it, I can do it alone or with others, and it's not a clarinet.

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## JeffD

The reason I play and the reason I started playing are very different. 

The reason I play, realistically, is that I would have this huge mandolin shaped hole in my life if I didn't. My life really has rearranged itself around the music.

Mandolin is cutting into my fishing time actually. Yikes! I always thought nothing could do that. And I haven't been in my canoe in two or three years.

I don't mean that without mandolin I would sit around strumming nothing, of course I would fill up the time with other stuff. But really, these days, I play because I can't conceive that life without playing would be as good.

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## Beanzy

> Mandolin is cutting into my fishing time actually. Yikes! I always thought nothing could do that.


You'll surely burn in hell for that one  :Wink:  . Where I'm sure they play mandolins instead of harps.

My aim this summer is to get out sea-trout fishing on the river the night of each jam. Finish jam, go fishing. I mean the visa is valid for the night so apart from sleep deprivation there's nowt to lose. Got out last night & blanked but missed a couple of takes. At least with the mandolin you don't blank.

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## billkilpatrick

i play early music (medieval, renaissance dance music, mosty) because i like the idea of treating these olde-worlde "classical" tunes to a little "folk" r-n'-r.  i also play 60's u.k. and mo-town songs for pretty much the same reason.

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## JeffD

> Finish jam, go fishing. ...so apart from sleep deprivation there's nowt to lose. .


Love it. The perfect day is one where I spent some time behind the mandolin, and some time on the water.

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## Phil Sussman

Why do I play? I just have to make musical sounds on something, anything.

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## Barefoot Bud

I play traditional for several reasons. One being that it's just cool to connect with the mind of someone who lived so long before you. But the bigger reason would be because my family has a strong Scott-Irish descent. 

Not long ago we were looking online for some free geneaology info and found that someone who shared a common ancestor had made a tree. Turns out that my great-great (more greats follow) grandfather was born in Scotland in the 1500's. His children moved to Ireland in the 1600's. And by 1790 they settled in the county I was raised and still live in. So it's a roots connection for me too. To think they might have liked one of those jigs, or even played them when they came here.

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## Loretta Callahan

To dance with my fingers and speak without opening my mouth.

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AnneFlies

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## allenhopkins

1. Got hooked on folk music in the later 1950's, Kingston Trio and all that, and stayed with it ever since.

2. I can make money playing; not very much, compared to my former pre-retirement day job, but averaging a couple hundred buxx weekly.  Nice supplement to the retirement check.

3. Music has taken me to some wonderful places, and made me some wonderful friends.  I get to travel regionally, sometimes further, and play at a variety of venues, from elementary schools to rural libraries to small festivals to small-town coffeehouses.

4. Specifically addressing traditional Celtic music, I love the instrumental virtuosity, the social aspect of ceilidhs, and the appealing generational mix of musicians; this is one musical genre where younger players are well represented, as opposed to the nearly universal graying of the folk constituency.

5. Why not?

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## Dave Weiss

I like it because for the most part, it's simple, happy music. I'm simple and want to be happy. Seems a perfect match...

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## Dobes2TBK

Not necessarily in order: 

1. (as opposed to sing)  Cuz I'm the one in pew behind you that's "making a joyful noise unto the Lord"  While it may be joyful, it's "noise" to them with pitch.

2. Why not til my 40's?  cuz they didn't have strings in band at school. And after marriage & kids, something ELSE always required my resources.  When I finally started making myself a priority, music became a priority as well.

3. Why Trad? connecting with my heritage. Mom's family goes back to County Tyrone. Altho he only owned a jaw-harp, Grandad it was said could play anything(string) he could pick up. Dad's family's from the Ozarks. Both branches included some generations in the hill country of southeast Ohio. 

4. Learning I can do something I'd been brainwashed into thinking was too hard to do.

5. Sense of community.  I was always among the last picked in gym. When I play, I may not be first chair, but I'm welcome (as long as I tune!)  And esp when the tune comes up that's something I know, or I'm able to quickly pick up, I'm a part of the whole that's producing something lovely.

6. Conversation starter.  I never did get the knack of starting off conversations.  I'm not a big sports fan, and my non-music hobby choices are a bit... eccentric... for the general public.  An instrument in your lap, played or not, there's an instant common ground, whether the other party is a musician or not.

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## Shanachie

For me, playing music replenishes the creative well in other areas of my life. 

Music doesn't come naturally to me, actually I find it really challenging. I enjoy the challenge and the fulfillment that comes with learning something difficult. Also, there is a reason these tunes have been around for so long. They get in your head and won't go away. I've even caught my wife, who doesn't play trad, humming tunes around the house. They are little ear worms.

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## RootsMusicVirginia

In part, golf.

In my 40s ... oh, so long ago, or was it yesterday? ... I realized I needed a hobby, a way to detoxify from the world of remunerative work.  In my analytical way, I brainstormed a list of hobbies I might pursue, among them playing guitar, camping, and golf.

I concluded that, although I was not the world's worst golfer, I was a contender.  That settled that.

I'd flirted with guitar in my 20s, to no great accomplishment, but always meant to "get back to it."  I'd taken a classical guitar course as an undergrad, so went to the nearest guitar shop and resumed classical lessons.

Meanwhile, our family wanted to try camping and bought the biggest tent Price Club offered.  Soon after, I visited a CD store and saw my very first bluegrass festival flyer, offering free "camping in the rough."  We spent most of that first camping trip at the Amelia Family BG Music Festival standing under a tarp with a dozen or so others, as the rain poured down, the water leaked into our tent, and the music poured forth.  We were hooked.

Around this time, the early 90s, my lifelong friend Wayne suggested I attend Old Time Music Week at Augusta Heritage Center in Elkins, West Virginia.  On the Halliehurst mansion's porch one night, the sound of old time echoing across the campus induced a musically spiritual epiphany.  I'd come home.  This was right.  This was as it should be.

Last year, mandolins joined my guitar collection.   :Mandosmiley:   Tony Rice and Sam Bush need not fear.

I'm a perpetual beginner, a porch picker.  Music is a delightful tonic, with homemade the very best kind.  Ah ... family, friends, and the primal connection of traditional music!

Music from the old time, bluegrass, and Celtic traditions has a hold on me, for reasons mentioned throughout this thread and many others.  We can talk on and on, yet perhaps never pin it down completely.  This is right.  This is as it should be.

Sláinte!

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## Bren

> a way to detoxify from the world of remunerative work.


There's certainly no danger of confusing mandolin-playing with remunerative work!

I always liked the sound of the mandolin and it's a great travel companion.

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## JeffD

I play the mandolin because its an outrageous amount of fun, hurts nobody, is legal, non-fattening.

Oh, and the social advantages.

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## greg_tsam

> Oh, and the social advantages.


Yea, you mean the mandolin groupies?

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## pjlama

Everybody knows chicks dig guys with little instruments  :Laughing:

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## Bear667

for a seance of acomplishment. I have never picked up any instrument, and I was given a mandolin by a friend. When I do pick at the strings (yep just got it, so I'm still learning the fretboard) I get a seance of peace.

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## sarai

Mainly because I have always had a love for music, I think harmonies drew me into bluegrass and it just grew on me from there.  I also find the musicianship to be very superior and from my classical background this is appealing.  Some of the best musicians I have ever heard played bluegrass so it gives me something to aspire to.   

Now a lot of people don't get why I like even listening to this music - and I have to admit some of the old old recordings I get a bit bored with myself but generally I just love this genre.  I don't know why I get joy out of hearing it and playing.  I just do.

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## zoukboy

Because it drowns out the voices in my head...

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## RobP

Because I can't stop!

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## Bertram Henze

> Because it drowns out the voices in my head...


Know what you mean.  :Cool:

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## zoukboy

> Know what you mean.


:-)

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## Peter Kurtze

> Because it drowns out the voices in my head...


In my case, it's a wind-up monkey with cymbals.

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## Miss Lonelyhearts

"In my case, it's a wind-up monkey with cymbals."

Ah, that would be the bodhran player at my local session. A perfect likeness....
 :Cool:

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## Ravenwood

Ok, I'll fess up! Because I've been asked not to sing.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Mandolin Mick

I've needed a musical outlet since I was about 13. Started with the guitar, then the bass, then piano ... but after I heard Bluegrass mandolin ... that was it!!! I get more fulfillment playing Bluegrass mandolin than any other instrument. It's like another voice for me. Hard to explain ... 
 :Mandosmiley:

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## DougC

When I play - the enemies _are_ before me  And the women weep too.

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## Darren Bailey

To overcome my deep insecuries and win my father's love.

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## Patrick Sylvest

I haven't given it a great deal of thought. It's fun and people say nice things and put money in my jar.  :Mandosmiley:

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## JeffD

> To overcome my deep insecuries and win my father's love.


 :Laughing: 

thats tragic.

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## Caleb

I discovered "old" music in my 30's.  It all came when I took up the mandolin. Discovering O'Carolan was like finding a musical soulmate. There is beauty, mystery, even dare I say "magic" in the old tunes. Many old fiddle tunes and ballads seem magical to me too. The modern world and modern music seem so dull in comparison.  There's just something about wood and strings that beg to speak the languages of antiquity. It would take a better poet than me to put it in the correct words though...

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## JeffD

> There is beauty, mystery, even dare I say "magic" in the old tunes. Many old fiddle tunes and ballads seem magical to me too. The modern world and modern music seem so dull in comparison.  There's just something about wood and strings that beg to speak the languages of antiquity. ...


If you want "old" music that has magic you couldn't pick a better example than O'Carolan. In a way its the perfect tonic when we need to wash off the residue of the constant barrage of incipid modern popular music. And the experience is all the more powerful when we play it, as opposed to just consuming it. When we indwell the tunes themselves.

In thinking critically about all of this, I have come up with part of the answer. The blues. I think blues and blues progressions and intervals are so prevelant in our music and musical culture that we no longer hear it as such. Its everywhere, and its immediately compelling. Then, when we hear something like O'Carolan, or Charlie Poole in old time music, or any of the traditional music, we hear all the subtle flavors, the intervals and phrases, that are so much more detectable when the blues is absent. I have used the food anology in other posts: blues is like garlic, and often the garlic covers up the more subtle dill and cilantro.

When a young person, someone new to listening to music critically, says that some piece of music or type of music is corny, I think what is really being said is: there are no blues intervals in there.

One reason, I believe, that bluegrass is so accessible is that it has incorporated many blues intervals and progressions into what had been old time music. 

Don't get me wrong, I can love Stevie Ray Vaughn as much if not more than the next fellow. But there is something refreshing, even bracing, like a cold shower, about music that is not blues influenced.

One reason to play, then, is to indwell the music we love. So that the music we might want to hear is getting played.

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## catmandu2

I usually disagree with Jeff as a general policy  :Wink: ...but I concur with this

I've studied classical, flamenco, scandi, afro-cuban, reggae, blues, cajun, jazz, and  (rock  :Frown: )...and probably others

And for the last, oh 15-20 years, I've played O'Carolan tunes througout.  I've played them on probably 6 or 8 or 10 different instruments.  I enjoy O'Carolan so much that I've been carting a hammered dulcimer around for 30 or so years--JUST to play O'Carolan.  And I recently acquired a lever harp proper--iin order to play O'Carolan in even purer form.  Still, I intend to acquire a clarsach proper...in which case my quest will cease

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## Bertram Henze

> But there is something refreshing, even bracing, like a cold shower, about music that is not blues influenced.


 :Smile:  Exactly what I think since 40+ years

And as for being corny...

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## DougC

Connie's #6 and AllenHopkins #4 for me. AND I get to share music with my wife-who really loves music too. She is much better than I'll ever be and I have the challenge of playing at a higher level.

Also BarefootBud said something important. Connecting with some musicians in the distant past. Yup that's me. 

 But the notion of roots connections is a fairly weak motivation for me. I often get asked, when playing Irish music, if I am Irish. Nope. English/German. When I play klezmer music, people say, you don't _look_ jewish. Nope, I grew up in a jewish neighborhood. So nu?

And hey, this is great stuff, you should try it. 
And yea I love the blues too esp. Sonny Terry and Brownie Magee and Robert Johnson.

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## mandocrucian

> When a young person, someone new to listening to music critically, says that some piece of music or type of music is corny, I think what is really being said is: there are no blues intervals in there.
> 
> One reason, I believe, that bluegrass is so accessible is that it has incorporated many blues intervals and progressions into what had been old time music.


?????   I have no idea what you are talking about. (pre-bluegrass) Old-time had plenty of "blues intervals" (whatever you mean by that). That old stuff had neutral tones, non-equal-tempered scales and intonation galore. And until the advent of fixed pitch instruments (accordions, pianos), Irish music was a lot more *non* equal-temperament in nature. Listen to recordings of any of the older Irish fiddlers and they weren't playing 12TET. Think bagpipes are on a piano scale?

Nordic music is full of quarter tones and wobbling between major and minor. Listen to Hungarian stuff like Muszikas...it's not "classical" pitch intonation at all.  In fact, the same is true of ethnic music all over...Greek, Italy,the Balkans, not to even mention India, east/southeast Asia, the Middle East, Africa etc. etc. 

Yeah, strict European 12TET pitch intonation is (except when used on the music it was designed for....European classical) "corny" - it's The Carpenters. And if you think that blues is _just_ playing the minor pentatonic fretted notes (and those frets are aligned to 12 TET intonation, BTW) superimposed over major chords ......... well, that's pretty corny too, (imo).

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## catmandu2

Even in the Western orchestra...cats tune to the oboe

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## greg_tsam

> And if you think that blues is _just_ playing the minor pentatonic fretted notes (and those frets are aligned to 12 TET intonation, BTW) superimposed over major chords ......... well, that's pretty corny too, (imo).


I love it when you start posting about music theory and such, Niles.

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## Bertram Henze

> And until the advent of fixed pitch instruments (accordions, pianos), Irish music was a lot more *non* equal-temperament in nature. Listen to recordings of any of the older Irish fiddlers and they weren't playing 12TET. Think bagpipes are on a piano scale?


True, but I am not sure deviation from equal temperament was even mentioned in the post addressed by this. I hear Blues as a collection of recognizable stylistic elements (which can be played on a piano, yes), and the ubiquitous use of these elements in many other genres lets the few remaining genres make a refreshing difference.

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## catmandu2

_Corny_ can certainly be evoked by any playing of notes without "feeling.". Blues are probably one of the most abused forms--as it is one of the hardest to "fake" convincingly and yet one subjected to all manner of dilettantish treatment by anyone with a guitar and a barre chord.  Nothing worse than hearing a cliche without at leadt some context--blues ( and jazz) figures heard in a sterile presentation like commercial media, ####ty bands, whatever you have--the void is conspicuously evident

Maybe one of the appealing things about bluegrass is that it presents some of these familiar stylistic elements in an "easy" and accessible form

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## JeffD

Niles is right about intervals being intervals, and were played before the blues. So thinking about this, I guess its bluesey when the blues intervals are emphasized as the dramatic arc of the piece. So I guess the more exact thing to say is that its the way certain intervals and chords are used to make drama in the tune.

We could have a whole discussion about what is and isn't blues and where it begins and ends, and believe me no thank you.

I am just getting starting to step out of, what did you call it 12TET (its as good a TLA (three letter acronym) as any), in Irish and in Nordic and in old time. And finally I see there are things the fiddle does better than the mandolin. With frets you are limited to what somebody said are the right notes, while with the fiddle you can shade them at a whim. Its a whole 'nother world. (I'll never give up mandolin, as I will not ever be more than a scrappy fiddler.)


Yes, Sonny and Brownie and Robert Johnson, of course real good stuff. But its too strong, to influencial. The modern western mind and ear jumps to those intervals and can't escape thinking that is where the tune is going. (There is a Beethoven string quartet, I forget which one, that I can't listen to because it sounds like ragtime to me.)

I am never, ever, going to have other than a modern western ear. Its impossible for me to be the listener from nowhere, (or no when.)

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## JeffD

> I usually disagree with Jeff as a general policy  ...


 :Laughing:    I think we have improved each others arguements over the years.

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## JeffD

> And I recently acquired a lever harp proper--iin order to play O'Carolan in even purer form.  Still, I intend to acquire a clarsach proper...in which case my quest will cease


I have a duet partner, a harpist. We do mostly O'C. Its wonderful. Works everywhere, at an Irish jam, for a dinner time concert, even at an OT festival.

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## catmandu2

> I am never, ever, going to have other than a modern western ear. Its impossible for me to be the listener from nowhere, (or no when.)


Well it's an interesting dialectic for sure--the best ones are when two folks from different traditions and sensibilities get together and flesh out some common feeling; the worst typically evincing when "institutions" clash: this is readily seen in "classical"/academia vs folk disputations.  :Laughing:   I tend to find myself involved with these--my recent foray impelled by an excursion into ITM with an oboe--easy with an iconoclastic general sensibility 

I certainly understand feeling bound by tradition, and being generally limited in musical vernacular--being raised on rock in the motor city. Nothing of course wrong with tradition in and of itself (we just tend to get crazy with it--as we tend toward ideologies))...music serves many functions--it can liberate in amazing ways--and can also be a political tool

####--phone is shutting down

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## catmandu2

Phone recharged--probably ran out at just the right time   :Wink: 




> I have a duet partner, a harpist. We do mostly O'C. Its wonderful. Works everywhere, at an Irish jam, for a dinner time concert, even at an OT festival.


Like blues, it's a potent oeuvre.  For me it's especially nice since having given up baroque playing with guitar.  It's a nice "bridge" across idioms--baroque, medieval, Irish folk, solo, duo, ensemble...and of course the melodies are wonderful

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## catmandu2

Obviously another diversion off-piste, but for the cursory discussion of _blues_ and the _musical dialectic_, see Bela's "Throw Down Your Heart"--an exceptional musical document

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