# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  The Art of PICKING

## vkioulaphides

So, then: on the "Vicarious Violinism" thread, Tartini's _The Art of Bowing_ has been generously linked by Eugene. It is, formally speaking, a theme with 50 variations, exemplifying just about every articulation under the sun.

This is the beginning of the second week of 2005 51 weeks to go. Ehm... you follow my sick, sick mind?  

I have printed Sr. Tartini's noble text, and will spend this week studying the theme _only_; next week, Variation I. 

I would love to have the vicarious participation of other MC-colleagues who in turn may wish to post their own experiences, questions, recommendations, etc. as we go along. This by way of a support group for a seriously demented individual.

All this so that, by the time we are about to wish each other Happy New Year again, we may have compounded our very own, informal, collective version of "The Art of PICKING", one incorporating all the fruit of our labors, all the helpful suggestions, all the good points made along the way.

Any takers?

----------


## Jim Garber

Great idea, Victor! Count me in for the weekly report. I hope that i can keep up with you.

I glanced at it the other day. Looks interesting. There is a midi file that goes with it, tho distasteful to listen to, allows for those of us without superior readign sckills to get the subtle rhythms.

Jim

----------


## JimD

Victor, I like the way you think!

Count me in as well. I love to have this kind of goal -- a kind of syllabus to keep me learning new stuff. The idea of kicking ideas around with this fine group is exciting. I haven't done any serious work with violin music on the mandolin except for the sonatas and partitas. 

I have another goal having to do with learning to play the entire Well-tempered Klavier on the piano. I started a year or so ago. I have 6 preludes and 3 fugues learned. I am shooting for a pace of one a month. Havn't been able to keep that up though -- too much else to do (earning a living, practicing the instruments that I actually perform on...) I am afraid I may not finish until I'm about 112 years old

----------


## John Bertotti

I hope you guys take copious notes and offer them for sale after. I would love to help but one look at it told me it was way over my head. Good luck by next Christmas I may be at a level to understand it. John

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well, John, I'm not so sure about "copious notes for sale"... Obviously, if either James makes a helpful point in the course of this exercise, I will jot it down in pencil on my own copy of the score; perhaps they, in turn, will do the same on their copies, if I am the one to be struck by sudden revelation. In this way, the cumulative benefit will be for all to share all, including yourself and anyone else who does not openly "sign on". 

Now, where is my pick?

----------


## John Craton

Victor et al.,

I wish you guys all the best, but I don't think I'll join you on this endeavor. Mainly because I've learned enough about myself that despite my best intentions (and there's a road somewhere paved with them) I'd never stick with it -- too undisciplined, I suppose. Besides, these pieces are hard enough on the violin  

I'll be curious to know how successfully you pick your way through some of the variations, esp. #32, 42 & 49. Please don't tell me it's possible to play these at tempo or I may just hang up my mandos on the wall for all time!

Seriously, though, it's a grand idea, Victor, and I'll be awaiting everyone's progress reports with bated breath. (When you finish these, I have some Locatelli that could be your challenge for 2006  )

----------


## vkioulaphides

I correct myself: Eugene linked the Tartini on the "Quarantine this Section" thread, not as I wrote incorrectly earlier on.

As for tempo, operaguy, well... this is a _learning_ experience, not an effort to bring this work to the stage; in other words, let each player do his/her best in bringing this up to the best, _reasonable_ tempo. I would not let such matters bother me too much at present.

Also, there will obviously be things that we mandolinists will have to do different than violinists do. For only one of many examples: in the case of trills marked on notes of minuscule duration, I think that plain mordents (or inverted such), "Spanish" trills and the like will do just fine. We don't want our picks to catch on FIRE, do we?

----------


## Eugene

Hmmm...sounds groovy. I won't promise to keep up, but I will try to hack at this on occasion and read the insights and experiences here.

----------


## Eugene

> There is a midi file that goes with it, tho distasteful to listen to, allows for those of us without superior readign sckills to get the subtle rhythms.


Much more tasteful, although less complete, Andrew Manze recorded the theme and highlights from the variations on his Tartini CD (Manze, A. 1998. Tartini: The Devil's Sonata. Harmonia Mundi, 907213).

----------


## Bob A

This seems a worthy, if perhaps optimistic, endeavor. Scrolling thru Tartini is pretty daunting; actually playing it might be more than I can handle, but why not try?

My problem (as if I could limit it to one problem, rather than one volume) is that my picking has no rigor of application. I suspect that every time I play something, it is picked differently. (Sometimes it seems to be noted differently as well, but that's another story). Still, I suppose a conscious effort to internalise picking patterns, and exploring different rhythms, is bound to have a salutory effect on some level.

I'll sign on, with more hope than skill, and the prospect of reversing the proportion. (More skill than hope? I dunno, that doesn't sound too optimistic either).

----------


## John Zimm

Count me in. I printed off the first page last night and began to work on the theme. I glanced at the first variation and then tried to play part of it, but found all of the ornaments a little tough at first. I can see where this will benefit my playing quite a lot. Great idea Victor. 

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Re: ornaments: Precisely, John! If you stay with the theme _only_ for this Week #1, you will immediately see the need to practice some trills in isolation, especially the always troublesome ring-finger-to-pinky (or vice versa) trill.

I will post my observations, questions, etc. on my first "weekly report" as soon as I get some more time to spend on Sr. Tartini's workout. 

My only advice at this point unqualified as that may be#would be to NOT move ahead of our self-imposed "schedule". Time is the greatest aid to learning; it is not the _sudden_ gale but the _continuous_ effect of the wind that gives the mountain its shape and contour.

----------


## John Zimm

> Time is the greatest aid to learning; it is not the sudden gale but the continuous effect of the wind that gives the mountain its shape and contour.


That's a nice quote. Mind if I use it for my signature, properly attributed of course? 

Great advice, as always. The theme, and the theme only, will occupy my attention this week. 

-John.

----------


## Martin Jonas

Well, I'm looking at the Tartini now. #I think I might manage the theme, but the variations seem to be escalating rapidly. #Still, I can at least contribute my native-German speaker status to the endeavour: I know Victor reads German, but not everybody else may have understood Icking's annotations on page two of the PDF. #The most important annotation is that there is a simplified MIDI version available of the theme and all 50 variations. #It leaves out the trills and the optional decorations and can be found here (the URL has changed from the one printed in the PDF). #Another potentially significant information is that Icking recommends a metronome tempo of 56 for the "finished product" and a tempo of 40 for practising. #He also recommends that all trills should be played top-down.

Martin

PS: I should really read the previous posts more carefully in future: I've just seen that Jim had already mentioned the existence of the MIDI file. Apologies for the redundancy.

----------


## vkioulaphides

So, then: 

Week #1 (Theme):

I. Obviously, we mandolinists use downstrokes a great deal more ehm... generously than violinists would have used downBOWS; I hold this truth to be self-evident, and applicable to most detached 8th-notes of the theme.

II. And yet, in m. 5 (second part of the theme, first full bar), the F and low B-flat call for something lighter; perhaps the "downstroke on ONE string only", as the modern German school of pick-micromanagement would have called it. Ditto on the respective notes in the next bar.

Regarding ornaments: 

III. In m. 4, I can get in a 6-note trill, no more than that: six "noodles" (E-D-E-D-E-D), then the printed C 32nd-note. There seems to be ample time for just that, considering the printed D is DOUBLE-dotted. If anyone here can cram in more notes than I, well, (s)he is obviously a better player than I.

IV. In m. 8, however, all I can do is a simple, upper-neighbor mordent, F-G-F,  like a 16th-note triplet, not a full trill. Ditto on better players than I.

V. Question: In m. 8, coming off the tied F, do you start the A with an upstroke (my "default instict" from bowing) or otherwise? Why? (if I may ask)

Comments, suggestions, ideas, experiences, welcome one and all.

----------


## John Zimm

Victor,

I come off the trill on measure 4 and hit the 32nd note not really sure if I am playing a 32nd note or just a C note as fast as I can pick. #Kinda like a musical afterthought, or rushing through dinner to get to dessert. #That 32nd note causes me some stress.

Likewise, in measure 8, I have been playing a mordent rather than a trill. #When I tried playing more than just the mordent it didn't sound quite right, as if the piece were ending on the wrong note.

In measure 8 I play the A note with an upstroke. #This is the only way I have trained my self to get the timing right when starting a passage on the offbeat (if that is what you call it. #My musical vocabulary is a little slim these days). #

-John.

----------


## MandoJon

> I. Obviously, we mandolinists use downstrokes a great deal more ehm... generously than violinists would have used downBOWS; I hold this truth to be self-evident, and applicable to most detached 8th-notes of the theme.


Aaah but... are not our downstrokes equivalent to an upbow? In effect we hold a mandolin the other way round to a violin (or am I wrong). The mandolin must turn round through 180 degrees if you were to try and tuck it under your chin. I might be out depending on whether a violin is strung in the same "direction" as a mandolin (I don't know, but just assumed it was).

Also, speaking in complete ignorance about violins... would not an up or down bow change depending on whether you were bowing the first of second pair of strings? i.e. the up for the treble-most string is in the opposite direction to the up for the bass-string.

This is just a thought and bear in mind I know nothing about playing a violin and will need neither a gale or a constant wind to blow me over on this issue.

Willing to learn though...

----------


## vkioulaphides

In reply to MandoJon:

1) "... are not our downstrokes equivalent to an upbow?" 
No. Same direction of the pick and the bow in relation to the instrument's body.

2) "...would not an up or down bow change depending on whether you were bowing the first of second pair of strings? #i.e. the up for the treble-most string is in the opposite direction to the up for the bass-string."
Also no. Downbow is downbow, upbow is upbow, regardless of what string you are playing on.

Perhaps it is my fault that I made the reference to bowing altogether; as this is not the, ehm... _Violin_ Café,  I ought to be more sparing and less confusing with my cross-references to bowed instrument. Hmmm...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Buckley, I agree with you on the 32nd-note after the trill. I, too, try to jam it as close to, and as immediately before the note of final resolution. I don't subdivide mentally into 32 little microbeats; that sort of thing can hurt a guy my age.  

And, oh... the quote was standard parlance of the Stoics, and no original saying of mine. The usual allusion was to the building of character, as they viewed virtue as a _habit_, using such metaphors as "the mask gradually becoming the _face_." But I digress...

Back to Tartini. Or was it "Tartini or *bust*"?

----------


## MandoJon

Ahh! so bow direction is in relation to the instrument body and not the floor! Please excuse my ignorance. 

I'll step back and lurk on this thread now because, while I am very interested in picking technique, my reading ability isn't up to the task. Though, I hope that by week 50, I'll be able to read well enough to try and repeat most of the experiences of the folk working on this.

----------


## Martin Jonas

How are you treating the 3/8 notes in measures 1, 2, 4 and 8? Tremolo or single-note? If tremoloed, then the 1/32-note disappears completely into the following resolving C, so I'd guess it has to be single-note.

Martin

----------


## vkioulaphides

Exactly, MandoJon: The motion from the G-string(s) and towards the E-string(s) is by definition "downbow/stroke", and vice versa. You are right to have thought otherwise at first. Part geometry, part convention...

Reading should not hamper you. We are not working this up for performance, so your own speed, your own comfort, and your own abilities are sufficient to participate in the learning experience. 

Besides, it's not like *I* know what I'm talking about...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Martin, I'd say single strokes _throughout_ this entire piece. I have already voiced my concern about incendiary effects on the pick...

----------


## John Zimm

Martin,

I have used no tremolo in this piece. Mainly this is because I am saving up my ornament energy supplies for the variations. 

-John.

----------


## John Zimm

> I don't subdivide mentally into 32 little microbeats; that sort of thing can hurt a guy my age.


That is funny. Thanks for the laugh. 

-John.

----------


## JimD

> II. And yet, in m. 5 (second part of the theme, first full bar), the F and low B-flat call for something lighter; perhaps the "downstroke on ONE string only", as the modern German school of pick-micromanagement would have called it. Ditto on the respective notes in the next bar.


Good call!

I agree that most of the eighth notes should be down strokes. I am not sure how I feel about the indicated up stroke in bar 7. To me it seems "fussy" at least from a mandolinist's viewpoint. Any thoughts? 

I agree that single strokes rather than tremelo should be the norm here.

Regarding the ornaments:

I've been doing a mordant at m.8 as well.

For m.4 I feel that either four or six "noodles" work just fine. (Thanks for the new term, Victor -- I like it.)

----------


## JimD

Another thought:

Regarding interpretation and the left hand.

In measures 5 and 6, in addition to differentiating the eighth notes by picking (down stroke on one string only), I am allowing the D in m.5 and the E in m. 6 to sustain while playing the other two "less significant" pitches.

This is an option available to us but not to violinists. The indications are tenuto, stacato, staccato (or are they marcato? -- hard to tell)

Anyone else doing anything similar?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Re: noodles: Well, Jim, you can always count on me for _sophisticated_ musical terminology.  I remember calling Vivaldi's habitual down-up-down-up in perpetual sequences "that jolly ruggah-ruggah on and on". So, there's more where that came from!

Re: upbow in m. 7: Bah! Yes, a violinist might/would; I call it "not applicable" to mandolin playing and ignore it summarily. Regular downstroke.

----------


## vkioulaphides

On sustaining while "filling in" the triad in light downstrokes: I don't know, Jim... I personally would not alter the composer's 8th-note to a full, dotted quarter; that goes a split hair beyond my comfort-zone in reading Tartini's text. I just make the D a _full_ 8th, the others shorter.

Your idea, of course, makes perfect musical sense and, say, if orchestrating this for an ensemble, I would do exactly as you describe; but that goes a bit deeper into _creative_ treatment of a score, as opposed to the performer's usual, REcreative approach. YMMV.

----------


## MandoJon

> Reading should not hamper you. We are not working this up for performance, so your own speed, your own comfort, and your own abilities are sufficient to participate in the learning experience.


I'm sure you said that somewhere before. OK I'm encouraged to give it a try, especially as there's a few of us (and now I know which direction to use my bow! Didn't one of the guys in Led Zep bow his electric guitar? Have we discovered a whole new madnolin technique?)

I will be a week or two behind you guys though because I sold my cheap mando (which I'd had about 10 years) thinking my new one would be ready by Christmas (all timed so there would be a decent overlap between acquiring the new one and parting with the old). I'm still waiting and have been told Tuesday  

On a more relevant note: I got as far as reading the "Explanation of Signs" section and came up short when I got to signs for "Whole bow" or "lower half" etc. I'm not sure when we first get to one of these so perhaps I shouldn't worry, but does the portion of the bow used affect the tone (if so we could experiment with the angle of attack of the pick on the strings or summat) or is it more to do with which bit of the bow it is more convenient to play with (in which case we might ignore these marks altogether). Thoughts?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Amount of bow used is, of course, of crucial importance to the playing of bowed instruments. The priorities involved are both and primarily artistic and mechanical, catering to convenience. But that is a whoooooooooole other, ENORMOUS subject, far beyond the scope of this thread.

To tell you the truth, I have not (yet) thought of correlations between "full bow", "upper half", etc. and picking. Besides, all said indications are editorial, i.e. stem from Mr. Icking's judgment and not from Tartini himself. So, at the very least, I pay very, very little heed to them, if at all.

----------


## JimD

> Amount of bow used is, of course, of crucial importance to the playing of bowed instruments. The priorities involved are both and primarily artistic and mechanical, catering to convenience. But that is a whoooooooooole other, ENORMOUS subject, far beyond the scope of this thread.


Aren't you glad we don't have to deal with "amount of pick"...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Shhhhhhhhhh...  Don't tell Dr. Wilden-Hüsgen; she is _sure_ to come up with some notation for THAT, too!

----------


## vkioulaphides

OK, folks, with the 3-day weekend ahead of us... onward to Variation I! Having arrived by consensus to a recommendation of simple, 3-note mordents for Tartini's "trills" on short-ish notes (e.g. 16th-notes, such as in m. 8), we forge fearlessly forwards or some other, goofy alliteration like that.  

Quite realistically, with this kind of ornament happening, oh... a *million* times or so in the following variations, I see ever so much more reason for sticking to modest mordents and forgoing treacherous trills.

----------


## John Bertotti

It would be great to hear mp3 of the variations played as you all go. I don't know if it is possible but it would be great. MP3 for each variation know that would be worth saving along with the progress of this thread. John

----------


## Jim Garber

> It would be great to hear mp3 of the variations played as you all go.


It is funny John, but I was going to attempt it of the theme (since it is relatively easy, but I couldn;t get my computer to record properly., Maybe later.

Jim

----------


## John Bertotti

Jim In the famous words of two well known musicians, (Bill and Ted),
 MOST EXCELLENT!. Thanks John

----------


## vkioulaphides

... continued from the last episode:

Week #2 (Variation 1): 

Having settled on simple, 3-note mordents for trills on 16th-notes (in the appoximate manner of a triplet) we proceed merrily. At the end of m. 2 (of this variation), said ornament is spelled out; I play this the same as all the respective, similar spots notated with the usual mordent "squiggle". I start the triplet-ish mordent on an upstroke (up-down-up), then the two, "written out" 16ths down-up. That way I land on my feet, coming out of the 5-note figure.

In m. 4. three grace-notes are already spelled out; that only leaves me time for 4 noodles on the trill, not 6 as in m. 4 of the theme (see above). Anything more than that sounds too cluttered and, quite frankly, is above my meager abilities and poor coordination.

In m. 3, I shift to second position, index on the final C, which lays out the entire next bar in position (from the F on, everything on the A-course).

Same principle in m. 6: I shift to third position, index on the D on the second beat. That way, all the following, up to the open E in the next measure, is in position, across the A- and E-course.

In m. 5, however, I only go up to second, not third position (as per Herr Icking): middle finger on the first D of the bar, not index. Minor matter, of course...

All this, of course, is still a "work in progress". Week #2 is just beginning...

What are you doing for m. 7? My first impression/intention for the trill, followed by double grace-note is to do is as a _gruppetto_, a turn comprised of a triplet mordent plus the two grace-notes. Dunno...

Also, in m. 7: Do you shift up the A-course to the F (last note), as suggested by Icking? Or do you go across the E-course, saving the shift for the more dramatic interval, up to the high D in m. 8?

----------


## John Zimm

> What are you doing for m. 7? My first impression/intention for the trill, followed by double grace-note is to do is as a gruppetto, a turn comprised of a triplet mordent plus the two grace-notes. Dunno...
> 
> Also, in m. 7: Do you shift up the A-course to the F (last note), as suggested by Icking? Or do you go across the E-course, saving the shift for the more dramatic interval, up to the high D in m. 8?


In measure 7, I have not been going to the 7th fret on the A course. I just find it easier to play on the E course. I should try the A course route, but right now I am just trying to play this variation and make it sound like music. 

I have been having troubles getting all of the ornaments in, so what I have done (starting yesterday) is play the variation without any of the ornaments at all. Once I have it down reasonably well (hopefully tonight), I will move on to the ornaments. It looks like there is a logical pattern to the ornaments. Hopefully they will make sense once I have the basic melody down.

It's funny-I was tempted to quit after looking at this variation, but I have to think that learning something so difficult (for me anyway, poor musician that I am right now) can only lead to some encouraging progress with a little patience.

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

John, I admire and wholeheartedly agree with your practice ethic: yes, if one can manage something as intricate as this, then a lot of other music seems quite accessible in hindsight.

And, also yes: I, too, play these for a few days _without_ any of the ornaments. Then, I decide on what is reasonable, effective, and musical: what ornaments can fit in the given duration of time, which sound best, which seem to be in the style of the composition.

As for the shift in m.7, it is Mr. Icking's suggestion that one go up to the *8th* fret, F on the A-course. And you, like me, are perhaps more inclined to cross over to the E-course for the F, then shift up "dramatically" by a 6th, up to the high D. 

Mr. Icking's fingering is quite "violinistic", I must admit. Then again, this thread is titled "The Art of *P*icking", not "The Art of *I*cking".  

Let each one do as his/her best musical judgment dictates.

----------


## John Zimm

> John, I admire and wholeheartedly agree with your practice ethic: yes, if one can manage something as intricate as this, then a lot of other music seems quite accessible in hindsight.
> 
> And, also yes: I, too, play these for a few days _without_ any of the ornaments. Then, I decide on what is reasonable, effective, and musical: what ornaments can fit in the given duration of time, which sound best, which seem to be in the style of the composition.
> 
> As for the shift in m.7, it is Mr. Icking's suggestion that one go up to the *8th* fret, F on the A-course. And you, like me, are perhaps more inclined to cross over to the E-course for the F, then shift up "dramatically" by a 6th, up to the high D. 
> 
> Mr. Icking's fingering is quite "violinistic", I must admit. Then again, this thread is titled "The Art of *P*icking", not "The Art of *I*cking". # 
> 
> Let each one do as his/her best musical judgment dictates.


Oop, right you are-it is the 8th fret and not the 7th. I guess it is doubly good that I have not been playing it that way, eh? 

"The Art of *P*icking", not "The Art of *I*cking"-that is funny. Thanks again for a laugh.


-John.

----------


## John Zimm

I thought I would report on my progress with variation 1 so far.

In the beginning it was very difficult. I played only the theme for a couple of days. Last night, I started to play the ornaments and found that there was such a predictable order to them, that since I had the basic melody down the variations were not a mental workout to play. My fingers on the other hand couldn't seem to execute the trills as fully as I would like, so they have been reduced to mordents. 

All in all, I think I've come a long way from the first time I looked at variation 1 and wondered how anyone could play it. 

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"... reduced to mordents."

Haven't we ALL?!?  

Yes, John, you have the right idea#or, at the very least, you and I are wrong together!  

I try to think of the underlying, basic theme, then do whatever ornaments I can fit in. And yes, mordents are the melodic morsels of choice.

----------


## John Bertotti

I am following you all closely but much is whooshing over my head. One question. What is a Mordent? Thanks John

----------


## vkioulaphides

Mordent: from the Latin _mordere_ = to bite. A short, clipped, "biting" ornament, consisting of the principal (i.e printed) note, the note a step above it (or below it, in the case of inverted mordents), and again the principal note. Thus: low-high-low, e.g. A-B-A. 

So, then... on to Week #3 (Variation 2):

Again, mordents to the rescue!  The point is that the recurrent, printed ornament consists of a trill PLUS two grace-notes, leading to the next note; even if the trill, however, is a single mordent, the complete ornament adds up to a full turn, a _gruppetto_, a *5*-note embellishment.

Well, dear friends... I can't do it!  To be more precise: Yes, I _could_ do it, I could cram it all in, but in some hypothetical, ridiculously slow tempo. And, after all, the underlying harmonic rhythm does mandate that we stay at around M.M.= 50-something.

So, here is my hack solution: I... *guilt-ridden gulp* shamelessly disregard the printed grace-notes. Then, doing a *single mordent* on every note marked with a _trill_, I can play this fluently, and at a musically reasonable tempo.

In other words, I have disreputably enough reduced Tartini's *5*-note ornaments into *3*-note ornaments. Obviously, if anyone here can keep the tempo flowing, AND do Tartini's ornaments as he intended them, well... (s)he is plainly a better mandolinist than I, a conclusion I am perfectly glad to accept.

----------


## JimD

So, after a week of spotty practicing due to the start of a new semester, I am finally back to my mandolin for a substantial amount of time due to the blizzard. We had about 28 inches in about 18 hours -- thereby increasing my available "free" time. Classes have already been cancelled for tomorrow -- so I'll have even more time --in between snow removal, that is...

Anyway, I agree with most of the comments and approaches to variation 1.

Regarding variation #2:

I can't do the 5-note ornament either -- if I pick each note of the ornament. 

Consider this though:

If we look at the phrasing and dynamics a less conventional approach presents itself. (at least to me...)

--the second through fifth 16th notes are indicated piano (after an 8th and a 16th sforzando)

--also, the third and fifth 16ths are accented and slurred to the following (inclusive of the ornament)

If we take a "guitarists approach" to this we can play the ornament --all five notes-- "left hand only" and remain in the spirit of the phrasing. 

So, to recap (in grueling detail) from the pickup note:

pickup -- downstroke, sforzando

First 16th -- downstroke, sforzando

second 16th -- upstroke, piano

third 16th --downstroke 

ornament -- "hammer on" C, "pulloff" to B then A, hammer on B and C

repeat last 2 steps 

then, sforzando, downstroke for the 8th note

etc.

This is not a normal mandolinistic approach but this isn't a mandolin piece either. I like this approach because I can get the spirit of the phrasing much more closely than I could with the pick and do it up to tempo.

As an aside, I intend to practice it very slowly picking each note of the ornament and see what results in the long term. I am pretty sure that the left hand ornament will be more effective.

Any thoughts or disagreements?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, "left hand only" is definitely a valid solution. I did try that, too#and liked it, as JimD did. It is, of course, (as JimD writes) not a typical technique in the arsenal of the classical mandolin; but, again, neither is the piece.

Also, yes: The dynamics are very user-friendly in this respect: the ornaments (whatever those might be) being soft, the hammer-on / pull-off does generate sufficient sonority, also considering the brevity of time involved.

So, JimD and I are on the same page, with the only difference that I have been picking each micro-note within the mordents _with some effort_, I might add.  Left-hand-only mordents would lighten this up a bit... I will spend the next day or two hammering and pulling.

----------


## Jim Garber

Sorry to be out of pocket on this project. Lots of family duties got in the way of coming near my mandolin in the last week or two. Now work (ugh!) gets in the way and I have to catch up there also.

I hope to catch up to you folks soon. Don't leave me too far behind!

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

You are hardly at risk of being left "too far behind", Jim. # 

The thing I find _particularly_ encouraging is that we are coming to some sort of concensus, such as on mordents instead of "notey-er" ornaments. This "collective resolution", in turn, is finding multiple applications in similar situations from one variation to the next and beyond.

So, fear not. (Well, both family and work are frightful prospects at times at least, have no fear of Tartini!) #

----------


## John Zimm

> The thing I find particularly encouraging is that we are coming to some sort of concensus, such as on mordents instead of "notey-er" ornaments. This "collective resolution", in turn, is finding multiple applications in similar situations from one variation to the next and beyond.


I don't play the violin, but I wonder if the more complicated ornaments are just more feasible on a bowed instrument.  If we resolve to pick each note of an ornament, it would be difficult to execute in time. If we slur the ornaments (or should I say, when _I_ slur the ornaments) it is difficult to sustain much volume for very long. Ergo, the mordent becomes highly desirable, even if it is not technically true to the score. 

Anyway, I better go practice...

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"... I wonder if the more complicated ornaments are just more feasible on a bowed instrument."

Definitely!

On mordents: those, too, like all ornaments, are routinely played with each note picked individually in traditional, classical mandolin playing. Hence JimD's presentation of the "left hand only" option as highly unorthodox.

I like both. In Tartini, I might after all stick to pick-stroke-per-note. I love that "crackling effect" of ornamentation on the mandolin provided I can do it proficiently enough!  

Generally speaking, I only do left-hand-only ornaments in folk music, or such as is directly influenced by, based on, or suggestive of folk music. YMMV.

----------


## Bob A

Were I to confine myself to actually picking each note, there would be (perhaps blissfully, insofar as auditors were concerned) many fewer notes played. The hammer-on is essential to my lack of technique. I can perform it smoothly, however, even though I know I'm cheating.

What is it with all the various unwritten or half-written notes implicit in these ornaments, so called? Is it an attempt to save space and ink? Tradition? Or would it make the music, if written as played, impossible to read? Or, as seems likely from my feeble attempts, impossible to play?

I've been having at it in a desultory fashion, playing the un-ornamented lines and trying to work in a low level of ornament as scored, but this stuff gets quite hair-raising (I wish!) pretty quickly. So tell me, how much of Tartini is actually possible to a violinist playing at a level below the professional? (Just my typical whine, before compulsive practice brings enough of the music to hand to still my grousing. But it does seem rather beyond the horizons of a hack like myself).

----------


## John Craton

> how much of Tartini is actually possible to a violinist playing at a level below the professional?


It requires a student of fairly advanced technique to conquer the Tartini "Art of Bowing." As an example, I am just now starting one of my violin students on it after finishing both the De Beriot 9th and Mendelssohn concertos. I've had him do a lot of Leclair, Corelli, and Biber in the past, so I believe he's ready for the heavily ornamented Tartini. Trust me, it's not a work for the faint of heart ... or finger. Don't get discouraged. (I didn't even sign on for this project on mando, though I will confess to having tinkered around a little with it this month -- with not much to show for it.)

----------


## vkioulaphides

Bob, you raise a broader, musicological and historical issue. In an oversimplified nutshell: 

Ornamentation was originally UNwritten, with the implicit expectation that the performer would embellish at will and in good taste, of course. 

In the "Mesozoic" era, ornamentation was codified with all the arsenal of the familiar signs for the various types of embellishments. 

It was Mr. J. S. Bach who O, scandal of scandals!#first wrote everything out, including "realized" continuo parts, etc. He was vehemently assaulted on that account by Herr Scheibe and others, as the one "undoing all that was good in music".

In short, Bob: The idea was to leave some degree of liberty to the performer, a degree that is naturally extended in the case of e.g. playing Tartini's Nifty Fifty on an instrument other than the violin. When I played this on bass (in Hermann Reinshagen's unpublished edition), the ornamentation was more sparse than in the original, with mordents far outnumbering longer trills, and other micro-ornaments omitted in the interest of clarity.

----------


## John Zimm

That's an interesting history lesson Victor. 

I have to confess that I have been playing the ornaments as slurs rather than picking each individual note. Last night I sat down with variation 1 and picked out each individual note in the ornaments. I have to say it was frustrating but very profitable I believe. From here on out I'll give it my best to pick the individual notes, but with the understanding that from time to time, I'll reserve the right to slur if it sounds better. A musician has to reserve some liberties, right?

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Of course! 

And I do not wish to sound like I am disagreeing with JimD; all I am setting forth is the fact of historical performance practice, i.e. that in traditional, classical mandolin playing, all individual pitches sounded in the course of an ornament are picked individually. 

In _agreeing_ with JimD, left-hand-only ornaments may well be the best course of action in this; I simply have not used them yet, but will gladly try them. As far as Jim's detailed outline of the pickstroke patterns involved is concerned, I agree with him 100%.

Oh... and the "history lesson" is truly of a "bare bones" nature, with all sorts of logical, historical, and cultural holes that can easily be punched in its simplistic presentation of the continuum in performance practice. Still, said continuum holds (roughly) true.

----------


## margora

My view on this particular variation is that the choice of how one articulates the ornamentation -- plucking every note or using the occasional slur -- is entirely a musical decision that may vary depending on one's mandolin. The great difficulty with left hand slurs on the mandolin is making them audible enough (there is no way to avoid some decay) to be musically worthwhile and this depends on the instrument (and of course on one's technique). On the other hand, articulating each note with the right hand requires that one's mandolin "speak" quickly -- very quickly if one takes the music at tempo -- and this too depends on the instrument. As for the variation in question, I've done it both ways on my Collings and think both can work.

----------


## John Zimm

I play an MK right now, and the slurred notes do tend to decay pretty quickly. I am in the process of building a bowlback as we speak-I bent the first rib two days ago and it went famously, so we'll see how that responds in six months or so when I complete it. 

As this is an exercise, I think I should be more concerned with building technique than I have been thus far, so I I think picking the ornaments will be good practice for my slow fingers. 

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Indeed. Ditto on both mechanisms of ornaments: they both ring out effectively on my nearly-year-old Calace. The character of left-hand-only ornaments is naturally more "laid back"; ornaments with each pitch rearticulated have a "crackling" effect, brilliant, more "active" #_because_ of the rearticulation.

All this, of course, with the usual disclaimer that words are a poor means of describing music.

----------


## JimD

In advocating left hand slurs in this variation, I am also simply avocating VARIETY of articulation. We should use all the resources available to us and put them at the service of our interpretation, right?

Again, since this isn't really mandolin music, I would take liberties (of technique) that I wouldn't take with something written for the instrument.

Of course, I agree that this all depends on our individual techniques and instruments.

----------


## margora

Agreed re: ornaments. On the same note, so to speak, I think it is worthwhile to use tremolo in this music on occasion, for the sole purpose of building technique.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Regarding full, cadential trills still speaking of Variation 2 I do 4 notes on m. 4, plus the anticipation C; in m. 8, I do 6+1, as before in the piece, on all similar spots of double-dotted eighth plus 32nd-note anticipation.

Contrary to the suggested fingerings, I do _not_ go up to third position in m. 5 (index finger on the D). A violinist might have opted for Icking's fingering here, so that the upcoming trill (B-flat to A) would not involve an _open_ A. I hear nothing offensive in my mordent on the open A, and therefore feel no need to shift.

The immediate consequence to this choice is that, for the very last note of the bar (F-sharp), I am not higher up on the A-course. So, I simply play the F-sharp with the *second* finger (i.e. in "half" position) on the E-course, then slide the same finger up to the G on the next bar. All the rest falls into place nicely by itself.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Onwards!

Week 4 (Variation 3):

For once, a somewhat, ah... _less busy_ variation. And yet, one allowing for more, hmmm... *variation*. # 

All trills on quarter-notes, preceded by a grace-note (e.g. in m. 1), get 6 "noodles" by yours truly better players might do more. By the way: Why does the C in m.2 NOT have a trill? Icking's error? Those with a printed edition, please inform us. One would expect it...

In m. 4, A-course seems preferable for the entire first beat; ditto on m. 5 (with pickup), in the interest of uniformity in tone-color, all the way up to the penultimate note, B. By way of aural experience: the flatwound A's of Lenzner Consort strings were MADE for this kind of phrase. What a sheer delight! Velvety, sweet, smooth, lyrical... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

The cadential trills on dotted 16ths, with 32nd-note anticipation (e.g. in m. 4 or m. 5), I play as 4-note noodles; pedantically speaking: 32nd, two 64ths, 32nd; then the anticipation 32nd _upstroke_.

The trill in m.7 I play as a single mordent, without the following double grace-note; it seems awfully cluttered otherwise, especially as this lies in the middle of the phrase, and is therefore not cadential.

I find no good effect in the grace-note E in m.8. Perhaps the bowed version of the piece makes the effect more palatable; as picked by clumsy, inept me it simply sounds jerky and awkward. Bah!

Eager to hear how others are coming along with this.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Coming up, Week #5 (Variation 4):

A thankfully straightforward, unproblematic variation; everything falls into place automatically.

The only "fancy" picking I can think of hardly fancy, of course are three, consecutive downstrokes on the _second_ of each group of triplets, throughout this variation.

The cadential trill in m.4: 6 noodles, grace-note included, as before. The very last trill, in m.8, simple mordent on the 16th-note.

In the "B section", mm. 5-6, I do like going up the A-course, as printed. While the open E is more tolerable on mandolin than it is on violin *ouch*, I still like the A-course here: the sound is lovely, PLUS all the ornaments lay better under the fingers this way.

Courage, mando-brethren! *46* variations to go!

----------


## John Zimm

I have to start this again. I have been sick, and preoccupied with building a mandola. Sadly, the art of picking has suffered.

I did check out Andrew Manze's _The Devil's Sonata and other works_  to hear how he plays these pieces. Impressive. They sound so lovely coming from his violin. He'd cry if he heard my sparse renditions. 

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

No loss, there, John. My arbitrary, or rather concurrent/coincidental plan to parcel this work all across the year is no hard and fast "rule"#to each his/own pace.

First of all, I wish you health! 

Beyond that, I always recommend study of the score _before_ "comparative listening"; what makes Manze is Manze's making. I mean no disrespect to such a fine artist; all I am saying is that listening to someone ELSE's reading of a score, compared to reading it oneself, is simply second-hand.

As a final thought: I think that, generally speaking, sparse is better. The bow glosses over a multitude of sins; the pick is rather, ah... unforgiving. Less IS more, as far as I can tell.

----------


## Bob A

Less is more, indeed. While spending most of my mandotime on other things, I continue to pick away at these variations, with success measured measure-by-measure, putting in such sparse ornament as can be squeezed between the notes by wooden fingers, interpreted by a tin ear. I look at sucess in terms of a gradual suppling, with little hope of even approximating the sins artfully covered by the bow, while untangling my knotted fingers as I go.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Oh, Bob... the Italians have a most wonderful, indeed sublime expression for all that has come down to us by way of technique-building materials, such as the Tartini: _patrimonio scioglidita_ = "finger-loosening patrimony".

Yes, I KNOW it sounds positively stupid in English, but please, let us get past that. What it means, in the truest, profoundest, downright most _touching_ way is this: The way we play, our technique, our bag-of-tricks (if you prefer), are all a wonderous patrimony that we have inherited from our surrogate great-great-great-grandparents, all those fine artists who devoted their lives to building the rich corpus of instrumental-technique-minded works.

At risk of tiring you all more than I already have with Latin dicta, _semper reverendum!_

----------


## vkioulaphides

Week #6 (Variation 5)

What a thorny, complicated little thing, this one... # Let's try to EXplicate it, if we can:

In m. 1, I do the usual, 4 noodles on the trill, but simply _omit_ the grace-notes. I must confess that incessant, garbled micro-noodling gets on my nerves. # So, trill plus the two 32nds is plenty for this old man. Besides, there is already a mordent coming up on the immediately next beat; enough is enough!

Nicely, now the ornament in m. 2 _sounds_ consistent, identical: 4-noodle trill plus two 32nds.

I glide the pick across the barline to m. 3, disregard the first two trills in m. 4 again, too busy for my taste and close with the usual, 6-noodle cadential trill. Phew! (Of course, said trills would be simple mordents at tempo; I still find them overburdened, though...)

In mm. 5 and 6, again no grace-notes. If you can fit them in, better #person than I... Of course, with or without them, please observe the E-flat in m. 5, then returning to E-natural in m. 6.

In m. 8, again glide across the A- and E-course for the first two 16ths, then again two more downstrokes on the third and fourth one. 6-noodle trill, and we're home.

As regards fingering, I shift far, far less than this edition suggests: not in m. 1, not in m. 4. I do, however, go up to second position in the beginning of m. 6, as well as for the run of 32nds in m. 7 in which case I find the editorial _barré_ on the pinky most awkward and easily avoidable.

Still, I have a long way to go before I can get this to flow like _music_... #

----------


## Daymando

> So, then: on the "Vicarious Violinism" thread, Tartini's _The Art of Bowing_ has been generously linked by Eugene. It is, formally speaking, a theme with 50 variations, exemplifying just about every articulation under the sun.
> 
> This is the beginning of the second week of 2005— 51 weeks to go. Ehm... you follow my sick, sick mind? # 
> -//-
> Any takers?


As with many things of late (must new year time always be so _hectic!?_), I'm coming into this topic rather belatedly -- apparently I have six weeks and four variations of material to cover before variation five; a daunting task, from the posts to date!  

I've reviewed the "Vicarious Violinism" thread, yet I'm missing the link Eugene generously posted. (Too much dancing with lunatics of late, I fear, has temporarily blinded me to the obvious...) A repost would be well-received, even if nothing else than to satiate my curious mind.  :Wink: 

Danke im voraus!

Allen

----------


## vkioulaphides

It's here.

Welcome, Allen! So glad you could join us. I am starting to get the dreary feeling of a rambling soliloquy...

P.S. The misdirection to the "Vicarious Violinism" thread was entirely MY fault, Allen, not yours; I had meant the "Quarantine" thread of that time. Apologies and amends made.

----------


## NYClassical

I think I'm gonna jump on board, too... just picked up a copy yesterday and had a look.....wow! some of these look hard! interesting he should call it 'the art of bowing' when it involves all of this complicated left-hand stuff! Was that some kind of a cruel joke?

adam

----------


## JimD

I've been dropping the ball a bit on this one. Most of my attention has been focused on composition projects and my practice time has been limited to just what is coming up in performances.

I hope to catch up some time soon. Meanwhile, I'll read on and live this project vicariously.

Hopefully only temporarily vicariously...

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"...#interesting he should call it 'the art of bowing' when it involves all of this complicated left-hand stuff..."

Well, my understanding is that, as regards the _left-hand_ techniques involved, much of what Tartini employed in this piece was already standard fare by his time. Anecdote has it that, when he was invited to a "violinist contest" with Veracini, he was so awestruck by the latter's virtuosity that he simply chickened out, left Venice, went back to Ancona, and somehow, somewhere, wrote his now legendary _L' Arte dell' Arco_. 

Who knows? Perhaps it was Veracini's reputedly stunning use of the bow that so astounded and humbled Tartini no slouch himself! Perhaps it was that, in his mind, this work was more to showcase the various bowings, rather than the various (left-hand) ornaments. 

But we, of course, must focus our attention to these left-hand-related matters, as ornamentation on a picked instrument is significantly different from the usual practices of our bow-wielding brethren.

Oh, and... Jim: far be it from me to imply that I am bringing this to _performance_ level! Creeping along...

----------


## John Craton

> Anecdote has it that, when he was invited to a "violinist contest" with Veracini, he was so awestruck by the latter's virtuosity that he simply chickened out, left Venice, went back to Ancona, and somehow, somewhere, wrote his now legendary _L' Arte dell' Arco_.


It appears to be more than anecdotal. Tartini is reported to have been so impressed with Veracini's bowing that he withdrew from a planned contest and went into temporary retirement to perfect his technique, practicing eight hours a day. Veracini's bowing was renowned, and from the engravings of him it seems he used an unusually long bow. Tartini experimented with various bow lengths and sticks, and it was likely during this time of experimentation he wrote the work that has brought frustration to any number of students ever since.

As an aside, Veracini lived with a dark cloud over his life, despite his incredible virtuosity. Once he was asked to sight-read a concerto by Pisendel, an arch-rival, in the presence of king and court. He did it poorly. Pisendel then asked one of the orchestral violinists, whom he had secretly coached beforehand, to play the concerto, and he did it with great aplomb. Humiliated, Veracini went home and attempted suicide by jumping out of a window. He succeeded only in breaking his leg and walked with a limp thereafter. After a tour of England in 1745, Veracini was shipwrecked and lost all his belongings, including his two Stainer violins which were considered to be the best of all Stainer's works. He died almost forgotten in 1768.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ah, but all that was way back when artists were presumed to be (at least) half-mad. Fortunately *sound of creaking screws*... I say _fortunately_ *blinking eyes, furrowed eyebrows, nervous twitch on one side*... people no longer think of us in such terms.

----------


## Bob A

"Way back when artists were presumed to be (at least) half-mad)".

That would be, roughly, 1950? I still recall my aunt chiding me about needing a haircut, comparing me to the now unremembered violinist/comedian (aren't they all?) Ish Kabibble, whose long locks perhaps parodied the more theatrical of the virtuosi of the period.

Perhaps half-mad ain't bad. Think of the notorious Tiny Tim, who did so much to suppress the ukulele in his heyday.

----------


## vkioulaphides

1950's, 1*8*50's, 1*7*50's... bah! You are right on, Bob.

To tie this veeeeeeery surreptitiously to the argument over High Art in *that other thread* (shhhhhhhhhhhh...), the music we nowadays consider "serious" was rarely, if ever, treated as such in its own time.

Let leonine manes fly in the Adriatic breeze, let overly long bows criss-cross the evening air, let motley attire dazzle the (often clueless) nobility in attendance... ah, art, "The Great As If", Balanchine was used to saying.

But I didn't just say all this, nor do I know who did originally, and I would deny it in court, if subpoenaed to testify.

----------


## NYClassical

> But I didn't just say all this, nor do I know who did originally, and I would deny it in court, if subpoenaed to testify. #


you could plead insanity...occupation-induced insanity

----------


## John Craton

For those who've never had the pleasure, I thought I would post an engraving of the Master himself. Giuseppe Tartini, inspiration to countless violinists, composers, mandolinists, and at least one playwrite (Edmond Rostand, of course  )

----------


## Bob A

Let us dress in motley and dance and play our gavottes in the coming zephyrs of Springtime, let our hairs wave in the breeze, let the sound of the mandolin be heard in the balmy evenings of our days.

----------


## John Zimm

> Let leonine manes fly in the Adriatic breeze, let overly long bows criss-cross the evening air, let motley attire dazzle the (often clueless) nobility in attendance... ah, art, "The Great As If", Balanchine was used to saying.


That's awesome. Thanks, again, for the laugh.

This week's variation has uncovered a problem I have with my playing. I am not very skilled at playing pieces with great, I don't know how to say it, speed variation? To go from eight notes to thirty-second notes (is there a metric system for music?)...I suppose I could think of them as whole notes and sixteenth notes, but in my mind I am still trying to break the passages up into 32 pieces and spit them out musically. So far, it is a little tough on the ears (mine, my wife's, and the dog's. The cat doesn't seem to mind). Anyone else have the same trouble?

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"...is there a metric system for music?"

There certainly is. The good Prof. Robert Starer wrote THE book on this (Rhythmic Training) waaaaaaaay back when the earth was molten.  Still in print and widely available, though.

We _all_ have had this problem, buckley, just as we all have had a "problem" riding a bicycle for the first time; practice (and many, many falls) does away with it in time.

----------


## John Zimm

> We all have had this problem, buckley, just as we all have had a "problem" riding a bicycle for the first time; practice (and many, many falls) does away with it in time.


Yes, I think you are right. A guy just has to continue on like the continuous wind-not the sudden gale of picking, eh...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Coming right up, Week #7 (Variation 6):

O, Heavens be praised! A variation that simply "plays itself" at first sight with, uhm... _some_ compromise.

Once a pattern is set, it repeats virtually without change: 

A. Disregard those nasty, little grace-notes; I prefer to call such DISgrace-notes, as that is their effect, when played by me.

B. On the _saltato_ notes, we can easily play lightly; to borrow a page from the book of the meticulous New German School, *one* string per course struck.

C. Five-noodle trills, the last one longer (as usual).

We are *there*!

Minor issues: 

a. I hear nothing offensive in our open E's, and don't mind trilling on them, either. 

b. On the descending 32nds in m. 4, _forte_, I make sure to strike *both* strings of the course I am on, to clearly differentiate these from the _saltato_ stroke; I also disregard mordents on this occasion.

c. Usual, 4-noodle cadential trill in m. 4, plus anticipation as printed.

Hmm... deceptively easy, this one...

----------


## John Zimm

> Hmm... deceptively easy, this one...


I've been thinking that, but it is a fine right hand workout. At least for me. 

DISgrace notes-well put. 

-John

----------


## OdnamNool

> For those who've never had the pleasure, I thought I would post an engraving of the Master himself. Giuseppe Tartini, inspiration to countless violinists, composers, mandolinists, and at least one playwrite (Edmond Rostand, of course # #)


Rightio!

That Tartini dude _musta_ been _very_ skilled at, "the art of picking."

*Nice Beak!* #

----------


## vkioulaphides

Just imagine: Had that bygone era "screened" artists for who-makes-it, who-does-not on the basis of _looks_, as our popular culture does... heavens! Who would have "made the cut"?

----------


## John Craton

Too true, Victor. In our modern society, Pugnani would have been dead in the water. Leclair, on the other hand, would have had to fight off groupies with a stick (much as Liszt should have done).

----------


## OdnamNool

Oh dear... #_for the record..._

I was _not_ making fun of his looks... #In fact, I rather like the chiseled, prominent featured look...

What I was _trying_ to do was to make a joke about the title of the thread, "The Art of PICKING", and, ur... the rather pronounced... #yes.... #Get it? #NOSE-PICKING!

Pardon my sore throat... I've been trying to numb it with an adult beverage that contains orange juice... Hense, the stupid post... #

----------


## vkioulaphides

Oh, all in good fun... Besides, Sr. Tartini's, ah... _prominent_ proboscis makes a better and certainly BIGGER impression than my own, stubby one. # 

Say, have you ever seen/heard Shostakovich' comic opera "The Nose"?

But, once again, I digress...

Back to practicing those *variations*! #

----------


## John Craton

> Say, have you ever seen/heard Shostakovich' comic opera "The Nose"?


Yes, a wonderfully comic opera based on Gogol's short story of the same name. The waking scene is one of the funniest in all of opera.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yup, terrific, fun piece! The only thing missing from that score is a _mandolin_ part!  

Then, again, there ought to be a whole new opera, called "The PICK", with a plot involving an ever dissatisfied mandolinist, seeking in vain the pick of his/her dreams, when suddenly...

 John (et al), we are bad, bad, baaaaaaad company for each other, when it comes to digression. 

Say, is there a Guiness record of just how _off topic_ a stream of consciousness has ever been?

 I bow and exit, as I must run to an evening rehearsal, cross-town. My absence can only help...

----------


## John Craton

> Say, is there a Guiness record of just how _off topic_ a stream of consciousness has ever been?


I think that record is held by William S. Burroughs

----------


## vkioulaphides

I am (somewhat) remiss with my installment for Week #8 (i.e. the current one). I have just returned from a brief, yet gruelling stint of performances at Princeton's Institute for Advanced Study - playing modern works from the South Caucasus for a bunch of "extreme" physicists  

Said sequestration has set me back a day or two... sorry, folks. Of course, this is hardly _my_ thread, so I gladly invite anyone here to post their experiences with Variation 7, well ahead of mine. That, or await my recovery.

----------


## Bob A

Heady company indeed. While the south Caucasus reains the source for some of my favorite antique textiles, I had no idea they were exporting anything modern except for, well, let's not go there.

IAS and hypermodern music seems to be a curious juxtaposition. But why not? Even the NSA is well aware of the intimate connection between music, mathematics and cryptography. 

I trust you'll pardon my digression, bereft as it is of mandocontent, and rather lean on any other sort. Consider it my blessing on the topic of digression in general. And best wishes for a rapid recovery.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Alright: Let the recovery begin! Week #8, Variation 7:

While this is obviously a variation focused on string-crossings (as an etude for either the bow or the pick), the actual issue is perhaps ironically planning out the _fingering_, so that one does not need to jump like a jackrabbit from one location on the fingerboard to another, with the *same* finger, and with no time to spare.

So, then: In m. 1, I go down to "half" position, playing the E with the _middle_ finger; ring-finger on the G, pinky on the C (G-course). While this might seem awkward at first, the benefit is obvious and appreciable: You wouldn't want to rush your index from the F to the E, a NINTH lower, and across THREE courses in a nanosecond!

On similar grounds: in m. 3, middle finger on the F; in m. 4, index on F, ring-finger on A, sliding down to _index AGAIN_ on the E, middle finger on G; finally, four-note noodle on the trill#I have no problem with trilling on the open D, as previously noted. Others may feel otherwise...

In m. 5 and m. 6, I would make sure to "bar" early, not too late. I understand, of course, that whereas some may do so in "guitaristic" _barré_, while others with one-finger-on-two-courses, the point remains the same: it is essential to have both notes of a fingered fifth under one's grip from the last 16th of the PREVIOUS beat on. Thus, F and B-flat in m. 5, C and G in m. 6.

Finally, for the same reasons suggested above, in m. 7, I shift on the middle finger from the E (second beat) to the F (third beat). To conclude, four-note noodle on the trill.

A curious "mutation" happens in this variation: the original, violin version, is "choppy"; the mandolin, au contraire, lends this variation an almost inevitable blend, a chordal sonority. For my meager skills, at least, and in a reasonable tempo, I find no way to stop/mute the strings for a short, "pecky" staccato. My fault, perhaps...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Moving right along, Week # 9 (Variation 8):

One more opportunity for Dr. K to eat his own words: having written frequently #and at tedious length about picking each note individually, here is a case where "pull-offs" are not only "permissible" #but, to my ear, inevitable.

I start each phrase with an UPstroke, not as indicated by Icking. Then, I imagine the _acciaccatura_ (the slashed, little grace-note) to be the *primary* note, at least subconsciously so; I pick THAT note, then pull the finger off instantaneously, sounding the "real" note, a step below with the left hand alone. I see no other way of getting the desired effect, the "grace and tranquility". (Again, just a hack's opinion...)

By way of exception, I play the 32nd note preceding each triplet with a #DOWNstroke. Again, I must eat my words: the suncopated quarter note a very long note, in this rhythmic context I am seriously tempted to play tremolo. Otherwise, I lose aurally the true effect of the syncopation. (So much for consistency... # )

As usual, 6-note noodle on the cadential trill in m. 4; 4-note noodle on the one in m. 8.

In m. 5, I don't need to shift as far up as Icking suggests; *third* finger on the E-flat is good enough for _this_ old dog. 

The legato flourishes in mm. 5 and 6 call again for a relaxation of the pick-every-note "rule": I slur (i.e. left hand only) the couples of 32nd-notes; otherwise, the effect becomes hopelessly frantic as played by me, of course.

A nifty solution to a thorny problem: at the tail end of both flourishes, there is a fingered 5th: F to B-flat, in m. 5, G to C in m. 6. I find no time to bar; simply, frankly, uncontestably impossible for me to do. So, after the F with the middle finger, I bring over the *index* to play the B-flat on the G-course; similarly, after the G with the ring-finger, I bring over the *middle* finger to play the C. It takes a bit of flexibility, octapus-like, to do so, but I find no other way I could possibly get the clarity and security I need.

In m. 7, again, tempted to tremolo on the high F. Then, obviously, pinky on the E as we descend, cascading down to the middle C.

Lovely variation, isn't it? #

----------


## Marc

I love this site - I've been 'offlist' for a while (variety of reasons not least we've taken delivery of a new baby - a Steinway baby grand that is, which my 14 year old son is relentlessly thundering away on making mandolin practice nigh on impossible!), but a resource like this is too good to miss! So it seems I've got a bit of catching up to do before I try variation 8, but I'll let you know when I'm up too speed!
Marc

----------


## Jim Garber

Marc,
Nice to have you back. Congrats on the new addition.

You are not alone. I have not at all kept pace with these wizards either. I have been distracted by a group i am in where I play, of all things, violin. It doesn't hurt my mandolin playing all that much, but i yeard to return to the plectrum.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

OK: Week #10 (Variation 9).

(I am too distracted, _pleasantly_ so, to post much these days... # )

I do mostly downstrokes in this entire variation; the pace is tranquil enough to allow for that. Gliding across strings also sounds very nice, very "in style" for this variation.

I do all mordents as triplets, not terribly fast, not frantic; I resume with a downstroke afterwards, "as it comes".

In m. 3, I don't need to shift back and forth; first position is good enough for me.

In m. 4 (and, similarly, in m. 8), I start again, after the mordent, from the second 16th-note with an UPstroke, "evening out" the pattern. In these two instances, I disregard the mordents altogether, as they sound awfully frantic to me. I land safely on the cadential trill, do a 4-noodle plus the anticipation, and cadence on the dotted quarter.

For the "B section", I put my *index* finger on the C, i.e. the pickup to m. 5. Having done that, everything else falls into place automatically. Obviously, I go back for the B-flat, later on in m. 5.

In m. 7, I see no reason to shift in advance. I simply shift up for the all-important high note: first the B-flat, then the C, both on the ring-finger.

M. 8 just like m. 4; exactly the same idea.

Next installment, post-Holland. #

----------


## vkioulaphides

I'm baaaaaaaack... and up to my old tricks. So: Week #11 (Variation 10)

This variation is really all about mordents; in fact, even the trills on 16th notes are (to my humble abilities) effectively mordents: 3 "micro-notes". Such is the trill in m. 1, after which I resume with a new downstroke on the 32nd-note G. Ditto in m. 2.

In m. 3, mordents (instead of a longer trills) and, on the chromatically ascending 16ths, consecutive downstrokes. On these chromatics, at the end of the bar, I _really_ dislike crossing over to an open E; it seems such a lousy idea... I consequently put my index on the E-flat and go up the A-course.

In m. 4, 4-note noodle (with the last note longest), plus the anticipation.

In m. 5, I do the "new" ornament (the one with the grace-note preceding the trill) with a single stroke on the grace-note (obviously), then a common, 3-note mordent in lieu of a trill.

In the rest of the variation, I differ from Mr. Icking rather consistently regarding choice of string. In m. 6, I play D-to-G on the A-course; then, G-to-B on the E-course. I trust the point is obvious.

In m. 7, second beat, I still prefer to stretch for the C-to-G on the A-course, as opposed to crossing strings. Even in the fourth beat, in a flight of fancy rare to such a pedantic individual as myself, I swoop up to an A-*harmonic* at the 12th-fret-point of the A-course; then A-to-C on the E-course.

The somewhat puzzling ornament in the last beat of m. 7... I treat the grace-note as a _measured_ note (a 32nd, to be precise), then do a long trill, 8 micro-notes, with the last one longest. Ditto on the long trill at the end of m. 8.

How is everybody else coming along?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Coming right up: Week #12 (Variation 11)

Now, I _know_ this is NOT what the violin version is all about but... what the heck? The point is to play this well on the *mandolin*, despite my wretched non-technique on the plucky little chordophone. So...

I put my _index_ on the pickup C, then avail myself of the open A; G's on the D-course, second finger. (I can hear the violinists hollering: "no, no, NO!" # )

The technically fine point in this variation is the one-finger-on-two-courses for all those 5ths. No big problem, really... (on my slender Calace, that is)

In m. 4, second finger on the G, index on B-natural, stretch to the F with the pinky. I don't bother with the mordent on the final note.

Same string-crossings-made-simple principle in the "B" section: one note on the lower course, three on the higher one.

In m. 5, I inch up to third finger on the B-natural (D-course), so as to reach the high G with the pinky (third position); ditto with the B-flat in m. 8.

_Voila!_

(With apologies to all violinist friends, who _know_ that the _raison d'etre_ of this variation is THREE-string crossings.)

----------


## VKochetta

I appreciate the discussion on all this. I dont have a classical background, so about half seems like a foreign language to me but thats ok, the parts I DO understand are enough for me.

Although my sight reading, technique and background are all weak, Im still getting some benefit at the low level Im at. Ive been putting the variations into Tabledit and tagging along, a few variations behind. Im finding my left hand fingerings playing patterns not in my usual practice time, so Im gaining some flexibilities and, I think, a better knowledge of the fretboard.

A quick question: when playing music written for the violin on the mandolin, do you generally try to follow the fingering suggestions provided?

Thanks for your input.

   --- Vinny [the guy sitting off to the side, with a blank look on his face]

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"A quick question: when playing music written for the violin on the mandolin, do you generally try to follow the fingering suggestions provided?"

Not necessarily. I would advise at least _trying_ the violin fingerings first and then experimenting with whatever else might work best. And I am glad that you are getting something out of this; at times it feels awfully lonely over here on this thread...

Onwards, then: Week #13 (Variation 12):

To maintain a reasonable tempo, I play all short trills as mordents, i.e. 3-note noodles. For example:

The pickup to m. 1: mordent plus the two grace-notes add up to a _gruppetto_ or "turn", i.e. a 5-note ornament. In this and in all similar patterns, I pick the mordent down-up-down, then *resume* pick-direction with down-up for the two grace-notes.

Vinny, perfect case-in-point to answer your question: I prefer to play the F on the downbeat of m. 1 across strings, i.e. on the E-course, not on the 8th fret of the A-course, as the violin fingering would require.

The 3-grace-note-plus-principal-note patterns I place ON the beat.

The pattern I described above (mordent in lieu of trill, plus two 32nds) serves me well throughout this variation. Ditto for all such, similar instances.

6-note noodles for the cadential trills on m. 4. and m. 8, plus the anticipation.

We're home!

----------


## John Bertotti

Victor don't feel lonely a lot of people are following this I bet. I know I'll be saving it all as the end approaches. John

----------


## Arto

So do I.

----------


## vkioulaphides

[QUOTE]"...as the end approaches."

 Most times I hear this phrase (as hollered by New York's numerous, errant, self-appointed street-evangelists), it is usually followed by "Repent!"

 

Let us hope that the end at least of this year-long thread will be somewhat ehm... less _terminal_.

Nice to hear that I am no Moses crying in the desert.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Week #14 (Variation 13):

Nothing really to point out, other than the minor point that open A's sound just fine (to my ear) in m. 1 and all similar instances.

This variation ties in nicely with a conversation John (reesaber) started on the "Chords" thread: while Variation 13 has no actual, _sounding_ double-stops, it obviously requires fingering two (adjacent) courses simultaneously on a myriad occasions. Otherwise, string-crossings would be impossible in any reasonable tempo.

To mention only one of these many occasions, by way of illustration of the general point: 

When the three legato notes are C-B-C, then the separate note a G (on the E-course), then the _next_ three legato notes _also_ C-B-C, the only way to play this is to fret *both* the C and the G under the same fingertip. I know of no other way to play such a pattern and ye violinists, please correct me if I am wrong this is also the standard, "violinistic" way of playing such patterns.

Having developed this simple technique and to borrow Mozart's expression this variation "flows like oil". 

Nothing more to say, really... A nimble stretch to the high C is needed; this "extended first position", too, is a standard technique, both on the mandolin and the violin.

----------


## John Bertotti

I just realized I didn't copy the link that originally started all of this. I searched the "Vicarious Violinism" thread but don't see the link. Anyone still have it? Tartini's Ahe Art of Bowing! Thanks John

----------


## Bob A

This may work.

----------


## John Bertotti

Bob A, that did it thanks. Man that came out real clear also. Thanks John

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 14, coming right up! # 

To my abilities, the trill on a 16th-note is inevitably, necessarily a simple mordent (3-note noodle); then, downstroke again on the first 32nd.

As before, I hear nothing offensive in playing the F (m.1 and elsewhere) across, on the E-course. If others find it objectionable, well, there _is_ the F on the 8th fret of the A-course.

In m. 2, I am tempted to play _tremolo_ on the F/A double-stop; that brings out the tension in the voice-leading of the implicit tonic chord, second inversion.

Same principle in m. 4: I am tempted to play tremolo on the second and third beats#the third beat tremolo on the upper *two* notes only. That seems to accentuate the momentary dissonance of the suspended C. 

Ditto on the final cadence in m. 8. I doubt that this is acceptable to more "performance-practice minded" players but I only have my ear to trust: the lively sustain of the tremolo _sounds_ most convincing. # 

Otherwise, no news; this is a nice etude, by the way, for double-stops in thirds. #

----------


## vkioulaphides

Moving right along with Variation 15:

The basic pattern of this variation, i.e. triplet with the last note cut short, is _ideal_ for the mandolin: down-up-down in perpetuity; the minuscule "lift" in the rhythm happens automatically as we lift the pick for the next downstroke.

I do, however, have a general problem with this variation: if I _do_ play the mordents, out the window goes my _con grazia_.  I trust that more graceful mandolinists than I can include the mordents and STILL sound good; I cannot, unless of course I keep the tempo ridiculously slow. I opt for no mordents but a flowing tempo, _leggieramente_.

The cadential patterns of descending, staccato notes in m. 4 and m. 8 I play ALL-downstrokes; then, 6-note noodle on the trills, plus the anticipation.

A few fingering differences between Yours Truly and Mr. Icking: 

In m. 5, I take the F that belongs with the E-flat and D on the *A*- course, *4th* finger. Then, the D of the last group in this bar with the *2nd* finger.

That sets me up to have the first note (G) of the next bar under the *1st* finger; then all the rest falls into place.

With a little practice, this variation can sound quite charming. Now, the trick is to find some _time_ for that "little practice"...

----------


## Eugene

Thanks for keeping after this massive effort, Victor. I will have a lapse in required musical activity in approximately two weeks. I still hope to peruse some of this stuff in more detail...eventually.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well, I _try_...  

Got back from that hellatious run-out I told you about around 1:15 *a.m.*, groggy and exhausted. This post is my first attempt at an activity involving at least _some_ mental presence.

Perhaps I will print, save, and review some of my own comments on Sr. Tartini's masterpiece... in retirement!

----------


## vkioulaphides

All right, then: Variation 16

I must admit that this one is more controllable -and more musical, I think- at a slightly slower tempo than the one(s) before.

In m. 1, I play the F with the first finger on the E-course; as I wrote earlier, I find no problem with the sound of the ensuing open E within the ornament.

Those pickup C's, all with the 2nd finger.

In m. 2, I do F and G ONLY (i.e. only TWO grace-notes) before the group of triplets; three, as written, throws me off- don't quite know why.

In m. 4, mordent on the downbeat, in lieu of a trill; of course, B-FLAT within the mordent.

In this slower tempo, I can easily do an 8-note noodle on the cadential trills in m. 4 and m. 8.

In m. 5, descending from the F, all on the A-course; similarly, in m. 6, downbeat on the D-course.

In m. 7, again 8-note noodle on the trill.

I wish I could speed this up but, part my sloppy technique, part my musical sense of pacing, I keep staying on the low end of the metronome. Your mileage, speed, and endurance may vary.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Sooooooooo... Variation 17:

There is precious little to say about this one; by far the most self-explanatory one yet...  

I opt for light and fast on this, as opposed to the more, ehm... _cautious_ tempo for the previous one. 

I do downstrokes on the accented notes, even when or rather _especially_ when there are two, consecutive ones of them. That way, they stick out prominently from the generally legato texture.

At this tempo, I can only do 4-note noodles for the trills, UNeven, double-mordend-like, plus the printed anticipation.

Obviously, in m. 6, both the A (second beat) and the E (third beat) with the pinky, 7th fret of the D- and A-course respectively; open strings would only make the crossings too awkward (for me, at least) plus would sound rather unattractive (again, as played by Yours Truly).

To my undestanding, the point illustrated by this variation is the clear, smooth, even digitation needed for the legato effect, as picked/bowed lightly and rapidly.

If I am missing something (hmm... or EVERYthing), please, someone let me know!

----------


## vkioulaphides

OK, time for our dosage  Variation 18:

I think of the tempo for this variation as "in vigorous 8th-notes" others might think otherwise.

For the pickup (and all similar patterns), I do a 5-note _gruppetto_ or "turn", i.e. C-D-C-B-C; no real trill. And, as said before, either F (across, on the E-course, or with a "mini-shift", up the A-course) sounds/feels fine on the downbeat after each turn.

Everything works just swell, if the tempo is moderate; higher up on the metronome, double grace-notes would fall by the wayside, I'm afraid...

I avail myself of any and all opportunities for "glide-strokes", gliding a downstroke across to the next higher course, when the music allows. Too many instances to single any one out; I trust you all know what I mean. 

On the _sforzato_ cadential trills, I can only do 4-note noodles, with all the force involved; add to that Tartini's double grace-note and the effect is (I believe) sufficiently vigorous and energetic.

In m. 7, I shift _between_ the A and the high C, both with the third finger.

What a treasure these variations are!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 19:

*Glide-strokes.*

(Whoever said the telegraph was a thing of the past?) Nothing more to say; glide-strokes, all downstrokes, light and graceful; a wonderful practice-piece for clean fingering of chords across three strings.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 20:

As before, I can only do simple mordents (i.e. three-note noodles) in lieu of longer trills. They sound perfectly sufficient (to me, at least).

When one of Tartini's trills is followed by double grace-notes, e.g. at the cadences in m. 4 or 8, the cumulative ornament is a _gruppetto_ or "turn" (i.e. a FIVE-note noodle). 

As I have mentioned earlier, open strings (especially E's) stick out quite unpleasantly on the _violin_, that is; I hear no such offense on a mandolin. Accordingly, the editorial fingerings that strive to avoid the open strings are unnecessary IMHO in my/our case.

Sooooo, then: on the third beat of m. 3, I play the E with my *second* finger (i.e. recoil into "half position"), and the following G with the *third*; this gives me the best effect and most comfort. Ditto on all similar occasions.

In m. 5, obviously, both the A and the D beginning the descending lines, and included in the following trill/mordent, need to be taken with the *fourth* finger.

In m. 6, I don't need the high G to be on the A-course; again, the logic behind the editorial fingering is to avoid a trill/mordent on an open E. Not a problem for us mandolinists, I think...

In m. 7, I play both the high B-flat and the high C beginning the descending lines with the *fourth* finger, not Icking's third. 

For the shortness of the first-of-four notes, I do the usual "left-hand staccato", i.e. lift the finger instantaneously after picking the note; for the legato three notes, obviously again, the opposite.

Cheers to all!

----------


## vkioulaphides

I hope there are no "pre-payment penalties"...  In light of our upcoming vacation (late July to early August), I would like to put in four installments in advance within the next few weeks at home, if it's OK with everybody. The intention, as stated eons ago, is to have this project complete by year's end.

Sooooo... (for the week of July 18), Variation 21:

Mordents, hmmm... of course! As we would say in New Yawk, "mordents, shmordents..."  I don't see how these are different realistically speaking than the *trills* on 16th-notes elsewhere. Hmmm...

Many opportunities for an elegant "strong-weak" on the abundant duplets; down-up (of course), light on the "up", etc. Lovely music!

The cadential trills, on the other hand (and at a comfortable tempo) could well be 8-note noodles, preceded by the jaggedly descending grace-note, and followed by the anticipation.

A few fingering niceties (if also commonplaces): 

In m. 1, beat #3, first open (short) E, then fingered (long) E on the A-course.

In mm. 5 and 6 (obviously) descending on the A-course, after having shot up the E-course on the 32nd-notes.

I can think of 1,001 variants in fingering but refrain from belaboring the possibilities because A. "differeng strokes for different folks", and B. I wouldn't want folks to get the silly impression _that I know what I'm talking about._

Happy Memorial Day to all!

(OK, back to those burgers!  )

----------


## vkioulaphides

Onwards! Variation 22:

Obviously, a study for double-stopped thirds. 

I find the fingering in beat #2 of m. 1 nifty, with the open D sounding against the F as fingered on the *G*-course; a customary trick-of-the-trade among string players, the "upper note on the lower string" and vice versa. I do not, however, see much reason for it elsewhere. In mm. 3, 6, and 7, it somehow "breaks my flow": I rather finger this third just like the others, descending the fingerboard with paralled 1st/3rd fingers on the thirds.

In m. 4, beat #2, I go up the A- and D-courses for the F/D double-stop and descend from there; far less trouble and better consistency of tone than crossing strings.

I take exception to the mordents on the very last notes of final phrases on mm. 4 and 8: yes, they may sound passable and even elegant on a _violin_; still, on a mandolin (especially as played by clumsy me), all those sudden pick-attacks, AFTER the final cadence has been reached, sound plain ol' jerky. Not a good effect...

The final, scalar run in m. 8 can easily and convincingly be done across strings; I feel no need for a higher position here.

----------


## vkioulaphides

By way of "advance payment" for the week of July 25 during which we will be on the verdant island of Zákynthos in the Ionian Sea   Variation 23:

In this case, I find the grace-note-plus-trill patterns in mm. 1 and 2 inconsistent with the _tranquillo_ character; besides, observe how nearly identical music in mm. 5 and 6 is NOT burdened with such ornamentation. Off with their heads, say I!

In m. 1, I go to the A-course from the F on; au contraire, in m. 2, F on the *E*-course, etc.

There ought to be a trill on the *fourth* beat of m. 3, just as there is one on the second one; in both cases, I can fit in 8-note noodles at a comfortable tempo. Those two grace-notes in beat #4, however, crowd the effect of the trill; who needs them?

The technical task in mm. 5 and 6 is good, clean, legato bridging across strings with the pinky; practice, practice, practice (I keep telling myself)...

In m. 7, the trills add up to 8-note noodles, the final note being always longer than the others; in mm. 4 and 8 (as throughout this work), the first note of the trill is actually "spelled out" as the grace-note _preceding_ the trill. The effect, of course, is largely the same#early music _savants_, please correct me if I'm wrong.

----------


## vkioulaphides

In "advance payment" for the week of August 1, Variation 24:

Again, a case of "picker's heaven, bower's hell" (or vice versa  )

The ornament most fitting IMHO to the first-of-three-notes of a beat in m. 1 (and all similar cases) is a grace-note withOUT the trill: it is graceful, it is tranquil... not to mention that the picking-pattern works beautifully, as it comes (grace-note on a DOWNstroke, that is).

Au contraire, on the third beat of m. 2, we pickers need some more sustain than a bare-bones grace-note to effect the implicit _appoggiatura_: here, I do a 6-noodle trill.

For the C-to-C leaps, I do glide-strokes, so that the ornaments coming up fall automatically on a downstroke. 

I do mordents on all the ornaments that fall on the second-of-three-notes in a beat, not trills (which would sound awfully crowded).

In m. 4, as printed, up the A-course from the B-natural on.

To continue with my perhaps iconoclastic disregard of ink-on-paper, I do NO ornaments on 16th-notes in the "B" section of the variation; I don' t miss them.  

As before, I try to work my way backwards and plan ahead, so that ornaments fall on downstrokes; whatever that takes... For example, in m. 8, another downstroke on the open E, etc. etc.

What a lovely variation!  Sure, ANYone can vary a tune but, ah... it takes the great Tartini to do so with such beauty and grace!

----------


## Jim Garber

Hi Victor:
Ah, so lonely at the top! :-) Alas, I have fallen way benind on this, working on work projects and trying to keep my head above water on the mandolin. I do appreciate your Tartini blog here and will archive it for the future. Keep up the good work.

Jim

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well, Jim... I would hardly call my location "the top". # More like "bottom of the quagmire" or something of the sort. But the exercise is still worth it, for me at least: the idea is that I would never have the time to work out the kinks of such an enormous piece in one sitting; not in a week, not in a month... So, the "weekly installment plan" seems like my only chance.

And, bottom-line, this is just what you called it: a blog. # It would be unbearably pretentious if I claimed any expertise at this; the only thing that makes it forgiveable I sure hope so! is that it is written strictly in the spirit of one struggling amateur's trials and tribulations with a piece clearly intended for FAR more adept instrumentalists.

Forging on, then!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 25:

Oh, I feel fanciful these days...  So, what about _una corda_ on all those _saltato_ 16ths? I simply LOVE that fleeting lightness! (In quite anachronistic terms, I keep thinking "Ah... Mendelssohn!")

Obviously, staccato 8ths should probably be all downstrokes; legato 8ths, au contraire, should be nice, smooth down-ups with good left-hand sustain. 

I can get 6-note noodles on the trills without cramming the generally light and graceful effect of this variation; naturally, the last-of-six ought to be the longest one, resolving properly as the appoggiatura it is to the next 8th-note.

In m. 2, after an open A (the 3rd-of-four 16th-notes), I shift swiftly to nearby *second* position, with the middle finger on the G; that sets up the entire figure coming up.

In mm. 6, 7, and 8, I hear nothing offensive to crossing over to the E-course; I disregard consequently the printed fingerings that involve higher positions.

In all beats involving one staccato 8th and two legato ones, I naturally retake a downstroke on the first legato 8th but that is pointing out the obvious.   

Again, what a wonderful variation this is!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 26:

In truth, very little to say about this one: naturally, down-*down*-up on all triplets; that goes without saying in accommodation of all the _sforzati_ but I like the uniformity and consistency of that stroke-pattern for ALL triplets. 

Also, consecutive downstrokes on the "thumpy", octave-displaced, low repeated notes as in m. 3, 5, and 6.

As regards fingering (and as suggested in the Icking edition), 2nd position from the second beat of m. 6 onwards; 3rd position from the third beat of m. 7; open E why not? on the second beat of m. 8, during which split second we can easily shift back to home-base, 1st position for the final cadence.

Looking at the next few of these variations, this one is truly the proverbial "calm before the storm"....

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well... maybe not yet. # #This is the "advance payment" for the week of August 8 (when we will be returning to the U.S. from vacation). So, then: Variation 27:

I can do no better that the fine editorial suggestions as printed; I particularly appreciate the well-planned placement of one finger over _two_ courses (e.g. across the barline between mm. 5 and 6, as well as several other occasions) That sort of forethought is always helpful and sometimes necessary!

I vary the fingering of E's depending on beat-placement and pick-pattern: in m. 4, for example, I play an _open_ in the first run of 16th-notes but do NOT let the open string ring! yet a _fingered_ E in the second such descending run. I trust the logic behind this choice is apparent... 

This variation has a nice, rolling character... #

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 28:

The "core comment" regarding this one is: NOT too many notes! In all those four-note turns, I can fathom playing only the first TWO, by way of an "upper neighbor" double grace-note. Let violinists do them all; we pickers, thanks to the _crackling_ brilliance of the pick-stroke (as opposed to the inherent smoothness of the bow) don't need no (*#*$^#&%#$ gazillion micro-notes to sound virtuosic. *humph!*  

Consequently: the very first note could be on the E-course and all fingerings could stay in the lower positions.

At the very end of m. 1, I curl up my hand with the ring finger on A, index on G: that way, the G-sharp comes out clean under the middle finger; that also sets me up for second position, so that the rest of m. 2 is automatically taken care of.

As usual, 8-note noodles on the cadential trills in m. 4 and 8.

The only ornaments that I DO play as printed are the 3-note groups (i.e. in m. 5 and 6), for obvious reasons of melodic contour, as well as the final flourish in m. 8.

In m. 7, I play the first B-flat with the third finger, unlike the printed suggestion (third finger on the first A of the turn); on the next beat, third finger on the A.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 29:

Clearly, "a dog that only knows one trick": on each triplet, upstroke on the first note, glide-stroke (down, of course) on the other two; the left hand must create the _staccato_ effect so that, especially when the octave lies on immediately adjacent strings, the second and third notes of the triplet do NOT sound slurred.

Consequently, I stay in 1st position throughout, as octaves across _three_ strings are a plus, not a minus; the only octaves that require momentary excursions into 2nd position are the C's. 

All is well.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Dear mando-friends:

This installment, of Variation 30, is the last one for the time being, as we are leaving on vacation this coming week; thanks to my four "advance payments" however, we will be right on schedule, come the second week of August, when we return.  

Actually, not much to say about this one:

If one begins from the very first note with the index finger (i.e. in *second* position), everything falls into place, without any shifts, up until m. 4, when we recoil to first position with the (perfectly comfortable) stretch down from F to B-natural.

We stay for a while in first position, creeping up again to second in m. 6#my choice is on the first 32nd-note C; others may find other spots more convenient.

So, then: second position for a while, until m. 8 where, right on the downbeat, we shift to *third* position, with the index finger on the first D of the bar.

_Perfetto!_

----------


## vkioulaphides

Time for me to return to my old tricks!  I shall have a new and "calendar-correct" installment to this thread by this coming weekend.

Soooooooo... how are _you_ all coming along Sr. Tartini?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 31:

This is obviously an excercise for legato and the all-important _fortepiano_ effect, of course.

The legato will naturally necessitate fingered 7th-fret notes in descending passages (e.g. the A in the first beat of m. 1, etc.), as opposed to open strings. But all that is known to all...

I do downstrokes (of course) on all staccato 16ths and have nothing to report by way of extraordinary picking.

Left-hand-wise, I creep up to *second* position on the pickup to m. 7, so that all the rest falls into position niftily.

On the very last note of m. 7, however, I do another mini-shift upwards, playing the F with the *third* finger. Then I am all set for the high D, from which I descend with two similar shifts downwards: between the C and B-flat on the third finger (beat 1), and between the A and the G on the second finger (beat 2).

All is well.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 32:

Ehm... I don't want to give the impression that I am slouching with advancing age but...  there really is very, very little to say about this one:

The pick-pattern is as obvious as it is repetitious. The trick is developing a clean, swift down-up motion: down both courses, up ONLY on the A-course (obviously, less impact on the upstroke). Naturally, beware of accidentally striking BOTH courses on the upstroke! (...spoken by The Great Clumsy himself) 

This "Lombardic rhythm" is perfectly native to the natural mechanics of the pick; and, even if only ONE string of the A-course is struck on the upstroke, well, so much the better! Going lighter on the LONGER note is perfectly OK, I believe.

The one and only fingering issue is the needed, implicit double-stopping of fifths across two adjacent courses: obviously, for the upper line to sound in _tenuto_, i.e. FULL-length eighth-notes, the more active lower part should be coordinated with it, fingering-wise; otherwise, the notes of the upper line will be deprived of their required full duration. 

In other words, there are several occasions where the upper note and the SECOND of each two lower notes are a fifth apart; that is precisely what I am referring to: those are the notes to be held under the same finger, parallel across two adjacent courses. Not so easy... practice needed...  

For once, I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Icking's fingering suggestions and have absolutely nothing to suggest by way of alternative.

OK: back to practice!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 33:

This one, too, is a matter of setting the one, recurrent motive in terms of pick-stroke pattern, to wit: "chiseled", forte 16ths, all downstrokes; simple (i.e. three-note) mordents in lieu of longer trills, down-up on the 32nds; then, on the _saltato_ 16ths, I like to do all downstrokes, striking only ONE string of the course#others might find this a bit too, ehm... precious. As always, of course, I am simply voicing my own preferences and pretend to "instruct" no one else.

By the way, John (a.k.a. operaguy), Richard, Eric, and all violinists present on board: are the actual *pitches* correct on beat #4 of m. 1? It seems to me that they should be C-G-E-C, instead, as the harmony has clearly moved to the dominant. Did Mr. Icking have a mental slip? If correct, this would be a very striking indeed, pedal-point-like effect! Please inform... (Obviously, ditto on m. 2)

I do NOT shift on the downbeat of m. 3; however, in agreement with Mr. Icking, I DO shift up to third position on the low C in beat #3.

In m. 4, I do two glide-strokes across the A- and E-course, and conclude with an 8-note trill (grace-note included), plus, of course, the anticipation.

I also do NOT shift in m. 5#what a great opportunity to work out that pinky!  

In mm. 7 and 8, I always shift ON the beat (or on its half-way subdivision), always with the *second* finger. The final trill, naturally, I do on the A-course, in position, i.e. without a headlong plunge BACK to first position; ditto, 8-note noodle plus anticipation.

What a fun variation this is!

----------


## John Craton

> are the actual *pitches* correct on beat #4 of m. 1? It seems to me that they should be C-G-E-C, instead, as the harmony has clearly moved to the dominant. Did Mr. Icking have a mental slip?


The Luchtenberg edition gives C-G-E-C. I don't have the Icking, so I don't know what he shows there. Could be that Icking used an autograph ms, but even these are not without errors. (Witness some of the Biber autographs, one with an extra beat in a 4/4 measure!)

----------


## vkioulaphides

Ah, THANK you, John! Just as I thought... No, Icking has an *F* major arpeggio, which, of course, sounds glaringly wrong. Thank you.

----------


## John Craton

I am amazed at how many errors one can find in printed music. Being an ersatz publisher myself, I know mistakes are bound to creep in occasionally, but I always try to make corrections on new press runs. The Schirmer Wohlfahrt 60 Studies, to cite but one example, has errors that have been there since they first published it in 1905! Even their newest incarnation of the complete op. 45 in one volume contains the same uncorrected errors. Certain publishers (who will remain nameless here) are notorious for sloppy editing. It's always best to consult several editions of works when a passage is in question.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Going once, going twice... GONE! 

All readers/pickers please take notice that, thanks to John's reference and absent any dissenting voice the pitches on the last beat of both measures 1 and 2 are NOT C-F-A-C (as Icking printed erroneously) but C-G-E-C, which, after all, only makes sense harmonically.

Well... regardless of the highly dubious value of all my own commentary, we have at the very least corrected something objectively, thereby improving on the downloadable score. Martin (or someone else), might you wish to send a polite e-mail to Mr. Icking (in German, #presumably), informing him of the typo? 

Cheers to all!

----------


## vkioulaphides

I hope you (on this side of the Atlantic) are enjoying your Labor Day weekend; this is how I am spending mine:  

Variation 34:

I fundamentally disagree with Icking's suggested extension (pinky-to-ring-finger) for the pickup, presumably stretching back DOWN to first position. Instead, I propose the following, "systemic" alternative:

Use the *second* finger on the A, thus settling into *second* position; if you do that, _you can stay in second position ALL THE WAY to m. 4, beat #2_. A HUGE benefit in efficiency, I believe!

What is mechanically crucial, of course, is that one _leave whatever finger lies on the E-course_ DOWN on the strings, while the other fingers play the full arpeggios; this one technical point plays out beautifully, all the way to the end of this variation.

On the aforementioned beat #2 of m. 4, I simply shift up to *third* position, with the second finger on the B-natural. In beat #3, during an _open_ E, I simply shift all the way back down to first position, second finger on the (first) C.

Ditto for the second half of this variation: begin in second position, up to third on the high D, _staying_ in third position until the familiar C-major arpeggio, fingered as before. Back up to third position on the pickup to m. 7, etc.

Only the very last bar fittingly so involves more shifting activity: beat #1 in third position, "micro-shifting" to *third* finger on the B-flat (beat #2, second position), then AGAIN micro-shifting in the middle of beat #2 (during the open E) down to first position.

Finally, a last micro-shift, creepy-crawling up to second position for the F in beat #3, back as before on the C-major arpeggio.

Piece of cake! Now, back to practice, _clarity_ being of the essence...  

Cheers to all!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 35:

One, general, sweeping choice: down-up on the grace-note-to-principal note. Others may of course disagree...

Fingering-wise, few remarks:

In m. 3, second half of the second beat, it feels awkward, shifting ON the grace note; I prefer second finger on the G 16th-note. Then, on the second half of the _third_ beat, I go to the A-course, third position, which sets me up nicely for the high D, fourth beat.

In m. 6, I stretch i.e. do NOT shift for the high E; easily reachable...

In m. 7, second half of the first beat, third finger on the B-flat grace-note, thus setting up second position, going into the next beat.

Naturally, several of the larger shifts can handily be "partitioned", sliced up into many, smaller ones; that, however, goes into the domain of personal choice more than I care to micromanage. Besides, what do I know?

Hard to inject any beauty and grace into _this_ one...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 36:

A case in point of "oiling the cogwheels" before running the motor: I spent a day or so playing F major scales in double-stop thirds; that, of course, solved most problems of this variation well BEFORE I even got to playing the variation itself.

Simple, 3-note mordents in lieu of longer trills; then, of course, the two 32nds, down-up again. I would need a ridiculously slow tempo in order to be able to do longer trills, so I will have to settle for decent tempo, simpler ornaments. To others, their own...

As usual, I hear nothing offensive in playing across to the E-course (for those F's and G's) and therefore shun all those split-second microshifts to avoid same. Bah!

In m.5, Icking's fingering is a cop-out. No, no, Werner... _third_ finger on the E-flat, _third_ finger on the D on the next beat, mordents and all. *Work that pinky!* # #After all, this IS a pedagogical work, no?

Now, where did I put those _analgesics_? #

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 37:

*ekhm* This one provokes me to an uncommon for me!   economy of words: I have absolutely NOthing to say about it.  

This variation is self-evident, its _raison d'etre_ the efficient, "clean" stopping of two adjacent courses with one finger, plus one third, non-parallel finger on a third course. Obviously, as the configuration changes along with the changing harmonies, so do the roles of the various fingers used for the various triple-stops.

Hardly a charmer but, oh, well, a terrific excercise.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 38:

A simple yet elegant one...

I like to start with a glide-stroke across the strings although, on grounds of consistency with the other pick-ups, I can foresee the argument(s) against my choice. Oh, well...

At the very end of m.2, I prefer going up to third position (second finger on the last B-flat) and staying there until the middle of m. 3, where I go back to second position, with the index on the G. Ditto on preferences, tastes, etc.

The pickup of the "B" section, index finger, stretching to ring-finger for the _first_ F on the downbeat; violinistic finger-substitutions on one and the same note are not of audible substance on the mandolin, not to my ear at least.

All in all, Icking's fingerings are fine. In terms of pick-strokes, well... retake and downstroke on syncopated notes on the second half of the beat, throughout the variation.

Quite lovely, no?

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 39: (What _else_ are weekends for?  )

For once *whew!* a really, _really_ easy variation; virtually nothing to say about it.

In observation of the change from legato to staccato, I might be tempted to do four, consecutive downstrokes on the notes in the latter half of each beat. The feasibility of that, of course, depends strictly on tempo; if the tempo gets quite fast, I suppose that "left-hand staccato" is all we can hope for. 

Fingering-wise, precious little to say: in m. 3, in the latter half of the third beat, I finger the G after the open E with the *third* finger, finding myself momentarily in the cozy "half-position"; a good place to be, for a while at least.  

All those octave-B's, index to *pinky*, to my taste, NOT ring-finger, as suggested tentatively by Icking; taller players, with longer fingers, might prefer to stretch, thereby avoiding my own micro-shift up to second position for the octave-C's. Nothing to argue about, of course...

I _love_ it when things work out so, ehm... by themselves!  (spoken in the spirit of a fundamentally lazy individual)

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

Woe! The Gods of Strenuous Fingerings have punished me for my hybrous insolence!  

Having realized that I will be out of town for the last week of the year, I jumped ahead to...

Variation 40:

*OUCH!* 

I have nothing really to report other than stress and strain, that is. Landing, legato, into m. 3, I slide the index finger onto the F; on the latter half of the bar, I _barré_ with the middle finger (on C/G), THEN shift up. I can think of a few other nifty alternatives...

Otherwise, absolutely nothing I can add by way or recommendation. It's just a difficult (for me), strenuous, finger-twisting exercise of double-stops in various configurations and all under the implicit burden of making this variation sound like _music_.  

OK. Back to work!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 41:

Again, another one-trick pony; but, what a trick! 

I think that the core issue in this variation is a rhythmic one, i.e. avoiding the ever-present danger of slipping into _continuous triplets_. Beware! The trill reduced, of course, to a three-note, simple mordent has to be done at lightning speed, and with perfect coordination of the two hands, in order for the intended DUPLET rhythm to be clear; then, the triplet (preferably all downstrokes, lightly), to counterbalance each beat.

Other than that, nothing to report. For the two cadential trills, 6-note noodles plus the anticipation.

A lovely variation! In fact, I have enjoyed this self-imposed regimen so immensely that, after this year is over, I intend to incorporate Sr. Tartini's text into my regular diet. Hey, it even allows for two weeks off each year!

----------


## mandoisland

Hi Victor - I am a little late for this projet, but I have just downloaded a copy of the Art of Bowing by Tartini. I will have a look at it and to the discussion in this topic during the next week. Which version / download are you using? I found a free pdf in the Werner Icking Music Archive.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Yes, Michael, I am also using the Icking edition, since it is readily available as a free download. Please note, however, the misprints we corrected above by comparing with a standard, published edition.

I am happy to have you#join me in this lonely "Gradus ad Parnassum".  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 42:

Oh, a tough, tough day at the bench: not MY cup of tea, those chains of double-stops...  

I (obviously) do simple, 3-note mordents in lieu of trills. I also play the double-stops with consecutive downstrokes, attempting to get the best legato possible by left-hand clarity and smoothness. The operative term being _attempt_...

I do not, however, do all those violinistic finger-substitutions on the same note(s) that Icking suggests. For example, in m. 3, I use the first and third fingers on the *first* C/A double-stop, simply shifting upwards from the B/G double-stop with the same two fingers. Ditto, of course, on all similar occasions later.

Argh... back to toil and sweat!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 43:

Ah, what a jolly, rambunctious one! LOVE it! # 

Lots, and lots, and LOTS of open strings! Open A on beat #2 in m. 1, lots of open E's throughout. The noisier the better#make a _joyful_ noise!

Obviously, downstrokes on the chiseled 16ths.

On beat #4 of m. 1 (and similar occasions), one must choose between barring the G and the C under the second finger, and swiftly slipping the _first_ finger onto the C, as it sounds together with the B-flat.

On beat #3 of m. 3, after an open E, I shift to second position (first finger on the G); on beat #2 of m. 6, second position on the D; in beat #3 of the very last bar, as Icking suggests (second position on beat #2).

What fun! #

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 44:

By way of preface I must say that, in the process of working on this piece over the span of 2005, I have developed such ENORMOUS respect for Tartini, both as a violinist and as a composer: amazing, in both capacities!

This one poses absolutely no fingering problems; instead, it offers ample opportunity for elegant use of the pick. Here are some of my humble suggestions:

* Down-down-up on the three-note pickups to mm. 1 and 5.

* Downstrokes on the _tenuto_ 16ths.

* Glide-strokes across three strings, anywhere possible, e.g. m. 2 (beat #2), m. 3 (beat #3) et al.

* Three-note mordents in lieu of longer trills (as usual).

* Swift, light down-up on the _acciaccature_, e.g. pickup to m. 5, to m. 6, et al.

* Finally, in m. 7, downstroke on the _martellato_ first 32nd; *another* downstroke on the second note, _glide-stroke_ across the E-course to the third note; ditto on the following two beats.

With only a little effort, this one sounds so lovely, so graceful...  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Yes wonderful this one! Thanks again, Victor.

Best, Alex.

----------


## vkioulaphides

Hello, Alex.

I must admit that, when I first saw your name on this thread, I got a bit scared: "Uh-oh", I thought; "don't tell me that a REAL mandolinist is actually following my crazy thoughts!"  

*Whew!* 

Yes, it's a terrific piece, both as a purely _musical_ work AND as an educational, pedagogic compendium for the violinist's art. After this year (and the first time around Sr. Tartini) is over, I definitely intend to come back to it, perhaps making it part of my "regular diet".

Greetings to you, my friend!

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 45:

Contrary to the previous one and what a delightful contrast! this one is all about _fingering_, not picking. As regards picking, well... as it comes: no fancy retakes, no glide-strokes, just light, crisp, alternating strokes. (Obviously, the two 8th-note pickups are DOWNstrokes.)

At the end of m. 1, I prefer to slip into second position on the penultimate note (G) rather than stretching; others might find the opposite more comfortable.

I land on m. 4 with my _ring_-finger on the A, by slightly stretching backwards from the high C; the benefit of avoiding some other "shifting syncopation" is worth the stretch, IMO.

In m. 6, on the second half of the second beat, I creep up to 2nd position, _second_ finger on the D; the rest takes care of itself.

In m. 7, on the second half of the last beat, I go up to *third* position, middle finger on the A (on the D-course); thus the fingering across the barline, onto the higd D on the downbeat of m. 8, is all set into place.

In m. 8, again on grounds of avoiding a jerky, off-beat shift, I shift on the second half of the first beat, middle finger on the A. 

Finally, in this last measure, last beat: I take the plunge and land on my *first* finger on the F (A-course); then the last flourish is laid out securely in position.

After the two, relatively "big" shifts described above are practiced, oh... a dozen times or so, they become secure, "second nature". I think the plunge pays...

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 46:

Quite frankly, I don't see the point behind all the many, little shifts Icking recommends; perhaps they make the legato more practical on violin...  I play more or less the whole variation in first position. By way of exception, in m. 5, I go up to second position, third finger on the B-flat, so that the following four 64ths lie in position, on the A-course; crossing strings in the middle would be too awkward, I think.

Obviously, I retake, starting with another downstroke at the beginning of all those 64th-note runs. For the staccato 16ths across three courses, I do down-up when going from lower to higher pitch, up-down when going from higher to lower; the reason is self-evident and common practice.

Also obviously, when a 64th-note run begins on a note that can either be played open or on the 7th fret, I opt for the fingered note; the clumsiness of a string-crossing, immediately at the beginning of a run, is too annoying and throws me off each and every time.

The staccato 32nds in mm. 4, 7 and 8 could be done all down-stroke, if the tempo allows#I believe it does, as it cannot be terribly fast, considering the note-values involved in this variation.

I must admit that, when I first looked at this variation, I was afraid that it would be one of those that work automatically on violin the bow DOES make those runs easy but remain hellishly difficult on mandolin. I am delighted to have proven myself wrong; with a bit of practice for coordination of the two hands, this variation has surprised me with its beauty and grace.  

Cheers,

Victor

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 47:

Considering the _forte_, downstrokes a-plenty; considering the _largamente_, trills can easily take *6* notes each, _plus_, of course, the two grace-notes.

At the end of m. 1, I prefer to bar C/G under the _third_ finger; I hear nothing offensive in using an open course within a double-stop (e.g. F/A); needless to say, the A 64th-note right before the second beat of m. 2 NEEDS to be fingered, on the D-course.

Otherwise, not much to report. Re-take downstrokes on syncopations (pro forma), a good exercise for trills with all fingers. In general, I prefer staying in the lower positions, if at all possible. The longer string-length has more "boom" to it...

All in all, a nice, majestic variation, stately, sonorous but not forced.

Now, all I need is to DO as I SAY!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 48:

While this one is hardly easy to actually _play_, there is precious little to _say_ about it.

It is crucially important, of course, to keep the (left-hand) finger down for the melodic note, for it to be fully sustained. Otherwise, the trills are obviously three-note mordents in any reasonable tempo.

Some of the higher positions recommended can be avoided at will, as the alternative, lower ones sound quite good on mandolin; but the recommended fingerings and choices of position are just fine. It must not be forgotten that the violinist must KEEP BOWING the upper, sustained note, while playing the lower voice (the one with the trills); his/her fingering of the second voice, therefore, MUST be on an adjacent string. Absent that need on the mandolin, our choices are comparatively free.

The difficulty#for me at least is good coordination of the hands for all those mordents to sound effortless, _tranquillo_. But, after all, this IS supposed to be pedagogical material... #

----------


## vkioulaphides

Variation 49:

In this, I prefer to stay in first position (i.e. starting with the _second_ finger on C) for the ENTIRE variation; I would much rather do 3-course crossings than all that playing within octave-stretches. I understand, of course, that most violinists will probably disagree.

In m. 4, third beat, I "come around" with the *second* finger on G, *first* on F, then first AGAIN (i.e. with a "micro-shift") on E. I apply exactly the same principle on the next half-beat of this measure, as well as to the similar instance in the very last measure of this variation.

In mm. 7 and 8, I think the challenge is to bar (fingered) 5ths, then release them at lightning speed! It CAN be done, of course; it just takes practice.

And, to that I return.

P.S. I see _liiiiiiiiiiiiight_!

----------


## vkioulaphides

Well, dear friends... all things, good or bad, must come to an end. And thus, this year-long labor of love is finally wrapping itself up this week. The score? you ask... Tartini, good; Victor's _playing_ thereof, ehm... not *quite* as good.  

Variation 50:

Precious little to say about this, although, of course, much actual *practice* needs to go into this final spray of pyrotechnics.

Obviously, three-note mordents in lieu of trills; just as obviously, there ought to be one in the second ending, just as there is one in the first one. (... missing from Icking).

It might be good to first condition the left hand with some cautious, preliminary exercises on stretches, so as to be able to eventually accommodate such extensions as the one needed on the third beat of m. 5 without undue pains and aches.

The character of this final flourish, as stately as it is flashy, certainly needs no elaboration by Yours Truly.

I leave Tartini enriched, delighted, and humbled or rather...  I am not leaving Sr. Tartini at all, really. I do intend to incorporate the lessons of this most remarkable piece in my mandolin-playing life henceforth.

Happy New Year to all!

Victor

----------


## Martin Jonas

I've only now come back to look at this thread after a little while and have noticed that Victor, in perfect timing with his holiday and his embarcation on full-time musicianship, has reached the end of his monumental project of the performance notes for these variation. Congratulation and the greatest respect for your perseverance and the always-insightful notes! 

As part of my New Year's resolutions, I want to have another look at Tartini, and see whether I can follow Victor's epic journey at least in my own stumbling way a little distance. So, I have extracted Victor's notes on each variation from this thread and have saved it on my hard disc as a word file. Attached to my printout of the Icking edition, it makes a perfect package of score and performance notes, hopefully to be digested and followed at some stage in my mandolin progress...

Martin

----------


## John Zimm

I tried to keep up last year, but it was a busy spring with a new baby coming along in May. Now that Victor has paved the way for the rest of us, I may try this experiment for the upcoming year. 

MartinJonas-good idea, printing off Victor's comments on the various variations. I'll have to do that as well.

-John.

----------


## vkioulaphides

I am honored by your attention to my efforts, dear mando-friends. 

One should not, however, ever lose sight of my original disclaimer: had this "annotation" been done by a REAL mandolinist (e.g. Richard), or a true pedagogue (e.g. Alex), or someone with a thorough background in _violin_ pedagogy (e.g. operaguy), it would have become a veritable dissertation, with extensive, historical performance-practice notes and what not... 

So, the proverbial grain of salt is healthy and highly recommendable; I have embarked upon this _unus inter pares_ and, if I only knew how to say "one amongst *struggling* equals" in Latin, well, I sure _would_ have.  

Cheers to one and all!

Victor

----------


## Bob A

I'd been doing a little reading about baroque violins, and found an article by violinist Andrew Manze on the subject; then somehow I got diverted toward Tartini, and found Manze had recorded his Devil's Trill sonata as a solo violin piece (presumably as Tartini had intended). So I picked up a CD, Harmonia Mundi HMU 907213. After the Trill a very engaging set of variations began to play. "Boy, this is sweet" i thought to myself, and took a look at the pkg.

Darn if it wasn't fourteen variations from L'arte del arco. Didn't recognise them - of course, they don't sound like anything that's ever come from MY mandolin - but I'm here to report that it's very well done, and even took me back to my Tartini to have another go at it. Well, the theme, anyway. Even the granddaughter picked up on it, and worked thru the first 3 or 4. Most annoying to find she sounds better than I.

So if you got hung up in the minutiae of the music, or found your hairs standing on end just looking at it, I suggest you might want to hear some of it played by a pro.

Beyond all that, it's remarkably fine music. I have to deplore the Concerto mentality that has driven short pieces off the concert stage. There is a huge amount of music that's delightful to hear and play, that is in danger of disappearing from view now that the classical stage has become a venue for Big Works. Airs and variations of all sorts are perhaps not the most profound sort of thing, but they deserve to be heard far more than they have been. 

Whoops, sorry about the rant.

Thanks, Victor, for bringing this music to our attention.

----------

