# General Mandolin Topics > Looking for Information About Mandolins >  Ellis F5 vs. Gibson F5 vs. Collings MF5

## CollingsFever101

Recently, I attended a Bluegrass music festival where I had the opportunity to compare the tonal characteristics of three top flight mandolins: a 2006 Ellis F5, a 2003 Gibson F5 Fern, and my 2008 Collings MF5.  The owner of the Gibson (Hallmark498) and I borrowed the Ellis from the owner, and we played various licks and tunes on each of them to test the response of the treble, the mid-range, and the bass of each instrument.  We selected two non-mandolin players to offer their own unbiased judgments: a fiddle player (Danbanjovi) and a banjo player.  The mandolins were set up with D'Addario strings with mid to low action and two feet bridges except for the Collings which had a full contact bridge.  The following details our observations:

The Ellis clearly won the bass battle between the three.  Tonally speaking, this was its most definitive quality.  It possessed an incredibly deep, resonant, and powerful forth string which never once became "muddy" in its projection.  Its bass was not offensive in any way, but I can imagine as the instrument ages it will only become more bass heavy.  By comparison, its mid-range and treble were not as powerful or resonant but were still very clear and crisp.  Overall, the Ellis produced a very "wide-open" tone that when played projected a broad sound.

The Gibson in our estimation won the treble/mid-range battle and was, thus, its most noticeable quality.  It produced a bell-like clarity up the neck on the first and second strings which seemed under developed in the other two mandolins.  The exceptional treble and mid-range was loud and open which precipitated and showcased note clarity.  On the flip side, its bass was not as present as the other two mandolins.  Overall, we seemed to agree that the Gibson produced a very "focused" tone which when played projected a more directional sound.

The Collings on the other hand seemed to possess a very even, commensurate quality.  The second and third strings produced a very punchy, clear, and round sound which we felt set it apart from the Ellis but not the Gibson.  Its treble was more brilliant than the Ellis, and it had a similar tone to the Gibson but was perhaps a bit "drier" by comparison.  The bass wasn't as powerful as the Ellis but was more powerful than the Gibson's.  Overall, we observed that the Collings produced a very "balanced," "blended" tone which when played projected a woody/punchy sound.

A few caveats to this experiment must be noted.  Clearly, the conclusions/observations we arrived at concerning each instrument are not an across-the-board representation of the three respective brands.  Since the mandolin is a wood instrument, the properties of the various mandolins within their brand will have some variation due to the organic materials utilized.  This experiment was an attempt to compare their strengths/weaknesses between each other so as to determine their particular "voice."  One of the draw backs to this experiment was that both the Ellis and Collings were equipped with bigger frets than the Gibson which was fitted with the standard, thinner fret wire.  This produced a "thinner" tone in relation to the other two.  However, the Gibson had been played for many more years than either the Ellis or Collings.  Admittedly, the extra years of play time on the Gibson has done it a great credit in maturing its sound production.  The Ellis had recently been purchased by the owner and, thus, lacked the development extended play time brings, although it did open up significantly during our experiment.  Finally, the ages of the strings on the three mandolins was varied.

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Bradley, 

brunello97, 

carleshicks, 

DataNick, 

DaveBCC, 

Glassweb, 

hank, 

Jerry Byers, 

Pick&Grin, 

Ryk Loske, 

stevedenver

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## Glassweb

This is a very good, informative and well written piece... thanks much for the run down. And how refreshing it is to see three lovely mandolins in their original, "as-intended" form... i.e. none of them being afflicted with the "dreaded black tongue".

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CollingsFever101, 

stevedenver

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## Hallmark498

It was a blast!  Tone is so subjective as well as personal tast.  A few things I found interesting is the difference in tone collingsfever and I pulled from each mandolin.  When I was playing both listeners choose the ellis, mind you this was a blind test.  Even better I asked them which mandolin they thought I was playing and they were wrong, didnt get one correct.  Now what really blew me away was the non player choose the ellis when I played but choose the gibson when cfever played.

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CollingsFever101, 

hank, 

Paul Statman

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Ha, I love the black tongue-both sonically and aesthetically.  I would scoop even if there was no pick clink...and I have!!

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## Tobin

Judging by the photos, the Collings has a ToneGard on it, while the others don't.  That will make a huge difference.  Did you remove the ToneGard during the testing so you could get an apples-to-apples comparison?

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## KTB

Nice review. I've played all three makes and would agree with your descriptions of the sounds. The one part I don't understand is how the thinner fret wire makes a "thinner" tone.

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hank, 

Paul Statman

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## Hallmark498

The tone guard stayed on.  Im not sure about the frets, but the difference in thickness of the pick cfever vs what I used would have (BC TPR 45)

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hank

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## almeriastrings

Interesting... I'd broadly agree with everything said. One thing to note is that the Gibson F-5's from that period are quite different sounding from the current (post-flood, Dave Harvey) examples. I would place these latter ones a couple of notches closer to the Ellis 'voicing' - stronger low end and a more complex voice than the ones from say, 10-15 years ago, which tend to be 'drier' and more mid-rangy. All very fine mandolins, though, and very much a matter of taste as to which you might prefer, also, as you say, different pickers bring out different things in them.

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DataNick, 

hank, 

Paul Statman

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## Ken Waltham

> This is a very good, informative and well written piece... thanks much for the run down. And how refreshing it is to see three lovely mandolins in their original, "as-intended" form... i.e. none of them being afflicted with the "dreaded black tongue".


To me, there's very little that ruins a mandolin, in both beauty and value, like the "Black Tongue". I can't imagine such a forward motion on a pick, that would reach right in between the strings and hit the fingerboard...
 :Smile:

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stevedenver

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## JeffD

I think, of all that was described, the tone guard and the age and type of strings would have the most effect on "skewing" the results, especially as how you folks were listening so hard. Both, I would guess, would impact the tone more than the width of the frets.

But as a comparison of individual instruments as is, that was great. Not, perhaps, to accurately be generalized from, but still a great analysis.

I especially prize evenness across the range, and I am glad to see that addressed. I like it when the instrument has a consistent voice regardless of where it is played.

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CollingsFever101, 

Paul Statman

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## Tobin

I was thinking about these results, and one of the first things that kind of surprised me was the comment about Ellis having a strong bass response with the mid-range and treble not as strong in comparison.  Even without the comparison to the other two mandolins, and only comparing to itself, I've never considered Ellis F5s to be strongest in bass response.  The mid-range on these is really what stands out to my ear on all that I've played.  

I will admit that over time, as my Ellis F5 has been played in, the bass response has become much more pronounced and balanced with the mid-range.  It's actually something I've noticed changing over the last few months (I've had mine about a year and a half).  It has developed a booming bass response, especially on chop chords.  But I still wouldn't call it more powerful than the mid-range, which is where I spend most of my time.  Maybe by the time mine reaches the same age as the 2006 model that was part of this comparison, that bass will come out even more.  I'll be definitely keeping that in mind.

On the few Collings I've played, it was the piercing trebles that caught my attention, so on that count I think I agree with the OP that it's one of the strong suits of Collings.  The treble struck me as out of balance with the rest, though.  But this was on brand-new floor models, and I'm sure that the playing-in or opening-up process changes over time, with more balance developing.  The "dry" sound of Collings is something with which I concur.

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CollingsFever101, 

hank

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## carleshicks

Very well written review.

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CollingsFever101

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## JFDilmando

leaving the tone guard was a pretty big... "oops".....either should have pulled it off, or added it to the other two....

Nice write up

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

Yes, if one mandolin had a toneguard on it and the others didn't then the results aren't even comparable.

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

they just add so much volume and body to the tone.

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

That said, I love writeups like this  Great job.  There is nothing better than a mando tasting.

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CollingsFever101

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## FLATROCK HILL

A very interesting and nice write-up. 
I agree with the earlier comments that in the interest of an apples to apples comparison, all three mandolins should have either had toneguards, or not had toneguards. 

I do not agree however that a toneguard adds any "volume" or "body" to the tone. It only serves to prevent the lessening of volume and body to the tone.
If the 3 mandolins were played with no contact between the mandolin's back and the player's 'front', the toneguard would have made no difference either way.

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CollingsFever101

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## John Adrihan

> This is a very good, informative and well written piece... thanks much for the run down. And how refreshing it is to see three lovely mandolins in their original, "as-intended" form... i.e. none of them being afflicted with the "dreaded black tongue".


And the OP did not use the word MANDO :Grin:  Great respect to three fine instruments!!

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CollingsFever101, 

Denman John

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## JeffD

> If the 3 mandolins were played with no contact between the mandolin's back and the player's 'front', the toneguard would have made no difference either way.


Absolutley, but, what are the chances.   :Smile:

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Atlanta Mando Mike, 

FLATROCK HILL

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## KevinM

And here I thought I was an oddball for not liking that which I now understand to be known as the "black tongue." A form of mutilation, I have privately mused, a sort of instrument tattoo or a piercing, which view, I hasten to add, is delivered with the complete understanding that these things are a matter of personal taste and nothing more, and one should feel free to do with one's instrument as one wishes at all times.

MMM, love that dark sunburst on the Ellis.

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## FLATROCK HILL

> And here I thought I was an oddball for not liking that which I now understand to be known as the "black tongue." A form of mutilation, I have privately mused, a sort of instrument tattoo or a piercing...


I think calling what I had done to my Florida a 'mutilation' is a little bit extreme. I just had a few millimeters of 'Florskin' removed.

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Atlanta Mando Mike, 

KevinM, 

Paul Statman, 

sgarrity, 

Tobin

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## Hallmark498

Let me say ALL of these F5s are exceptional in sound and playability.  Only after playing them back to back and really listening did we start to hear the differences.  NONE of them were weak in any area of tone.  What we did find were the strong points, or best points to our ears.  

I dont believe the tone guard had much if any impact.   We were sitting down with the mandolins off our bodies for the most part.  i hope to do it again and get some video or sound clips.

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CollingsFever101, 

DataNick

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## Bernie Daniel

> leaving the tone guard was a pretty big... "oops".....either should have pulled it off, or added it to the other two....
> 
> Nice write up


Good review.   Exactly right on the tone guard.  Depending on how you held the mandolins the tone guard might or might not be a confounding item.  

FWIIW,  took the tone guards off all my mandolins because I consider it to be of little to no value. I always hold to back of my mandolin away from my body so it adds nothing to the sound.

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## Tobin

> FWIIW,  took the tone guards off all my mandolins because I consider it to be of little to no value. I always hold to back of my mandolin away from my body so it adds nothing to the sound.


Not to change this discussion to one about ToneGards, but I just recently put mine back on.  I had taken it off because it was damaging the finish during that new first-six-month phase where the finish is still soft and curing.  And I just didn't feel like putting it back on.  Recently I started holding the mandolin away from my body with only the tail end touching my torso, loving the boost in volume and sexier tone I was getting by not holding the back against my chest.  I tried and tried to adjust to that hold, but it's not for me.  My left hand just isn't free enough when it's constantly having to push the neck out from my body.  So the ToneGard went back on, and I'm loving the sound while still enjoying an unencumbered left hand.  

Different strokes and all, but it does exactly what it was meant to in my case.

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CollingsFever101

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## CollingsFever101

> ...I'm loving the sound while still enjoying an unencumbered left hand.  
> 
> Different strokes and all, but it does exactly what it was meant to in my case.


I couldn't agree more!

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## CollingsFever101

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments!

*Tobin, JeffD, JFDilmando, & AMM:* The ToneGard did not make a noticeable difference whatsoever in our experiment as far as the mandolin's tonal qualities were concerned.  We didn't worry about the ToneGard staying on because, as Flatrock pointed out, it only prevents the lessening of volume/body to the tone and does _NOT_ amplify the volume/body in any way.  For my part, when I played the three mandolins I made certain to keep them away from my body so as to hear their truest qualities as much as possible and to stay in keeping with what the TGard was doing for the Collings.

*KTB and Jeff D:* The thinner frets did not produce a "weak" tone in the slightest; the Gibson had a power and a voice that was all its own.  However, the thin frets did cause the notes to sound more "lean" in strength rather than "beefy" or "robust" in strength like the other two.  In my opinion, those were the differences my ears were noticing.  I know a recording would have helped explain this better than mere words, but we did not have access to recording equipment at the time.

*Tobin:* Regarding the range response of the Ellis, there was NO doubt in any of our minds that the Ellis had absolutely killer bass; it unmistakably "boomed" beyond the other two.  Don't forget that the Ellis had not been played up to that point as much or as long as the Gibson or Collings.  The Ellis may yet produce comparable mid-range and treble because Hallmark and I put it through its paces to wake it up which it definitely began doing during our experiment.  Perhaps you are not familiar with a bass-heavy Ellis because you have not had anything to compare it to.  Thank you for your Ellis-owner thoughts and personal experience.  It is very helpful regarding our topic here.

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## Atlanta Mando Mike

All I'm saying is that by leaving on the tonegard you added an element that can change the mandolin's tonal output compared to mandolins that don't have one on.  It doesn't mean it did but it can and that creates questions when we are looking to differentiate what are often very minute tonal and volume differences.

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FLATROCK HILL

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## Hallmark498

I believe the ellis was the loudest even without the toneguard.  I would like very much to take and play it for a month and then do another test.  

The (my) gibson had the lowest action of the mandolins, I think most everyone was in awe of how low.

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## Tobin

> *Tobin:* Regarding the range response of the Ellis, there was NO doubt in any of our minds that the Ellis had absolutely killer bass; it unmistakably "boomed" beyond the other two.  Don't forget that the Ellis had not been played up to that point as much or as long as the Gibson or Collings.  The Ellis may yet produce comparable mid-range and treble because Hallmark and I put it through its paces to wake it up which it definitely began doing during our experiment.  Perhaps you are not familiar with a bass-heavy Ellis because you have not had anything to compare it to.  Thank you for your Ellis-owner thoughts and personal experience.  It is very helpful regarding our topic here.


In case I hadn't said it before: I wasn't doubting what you experienced.  It just surprised me a bit, as I hadn't ever really thought of Ellis mandolins as being so bassy.  If nothing else, you've piqued my interest on that count, and I'll be paying attention to it more.  You may be right about my exposure, since I don't play with anyone who plays a Collings or Gibson.  Nor do I ever get to hear my Ellis from anywhere but right on top of it.  Anyway, I appreciate your comparisons.  It's good food for thought, especially with regards to different responses as the instruments get played in over time and mature in their sound, or just 'wake up' after playing for a while.

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## Hallmark498

I have played several Ellis mandolins and every time I would walk away thinking, my mandolin lacked in the bass department.

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## KevinM

> I think calling what I had done to my Florida a 'mutilation' is a little bit extreme. I just had a few millimeters of 'Florskin' removed.


- hilarious.  

I can't stress enough that my feelings about going for the black tongue are strictly a matter of taste and I do not think anyone desiring one should be denied that privilege. To each his (or her) own!

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FLATROCK HILL

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## Mandoplumb

I never have considered the size of frets affecting sound in any way. I don't like big frets because it feels like I'm between the rails of railroad tracks when I move up the fingerboard.

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Paul Statman

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## DataNick

> I never have considered the size of frets affecting sound in any way. I don't like big frets because it feels like I'm between the rails of railroad tracks when I move up the fingerboard.


Fret size and composition do affect tonal quality in varying degrees...

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cayuga red, 

stevedenver

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## Mike Scaggs

Looks like i will be refreshing this thread.
I just came from Carter Vintage Guitars in Nashville where I played several Mandolins for quite some time.  The ones I played were:

Gilchrist 5 (2005)
Gibson Fern (1999)
Ellis Traditional (new)
Collings MF5 (new)

To my ears the Ellis was the clear winner for me.  They were all beautiful and fit and finish was superb on all I played.  I was surprised however how I was not blown away by the big money Gilchrist given their high reputation.  Don't get me wrong, it was really great but I couldn't hear $10,000 bucks more tone.  I wanted to but it didn't happen for me.

The Ellis on the other hand spoke to me like an old friend.  The overtones were amazing and the tone was what I imagined it could be.  Very even throughout the neck and a joy to play.  

Just one guys experience and thought I would share...

Cheers!

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## yankees1

You have good ears !! Hard to beat an Ellis at any price ! You should try a Girouard ! Another great one at a lower price !

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## Mark Seale

I'd really like to try one of the new Ellis Traditional models. I've always admired Tom's instruments from a build quality standpoint, but his sound and what I wanted didn't always overlap.  The Traditional being based on Crusher makes me think this would be more in line with what I'm after.

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cayuga red

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## LadysSolo

> Looks like i will be refreshing this thread.
> I just came from Carter Vintage Guitars in Nashville where I played several Mandolins for quite some time.  
> 
> The Ellis on the other hand spoke to me like an old friend.  The overtones were amazing and the tone was what I imagined it could be.  Very even throughout the neck and a joy to play.  
> 
> Just one guys experience and thought I would share...
> 
> Cheers!


So did you buy the Ellis? If a mandolin speaks to me like an old friend, generally it comes home with me.

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## Br1ck

If an old friend speaks to me, it is generally because they have forgotten our last encounter.

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cayuga red, 

ColdBeerGoCubs, 

Paul Statman, 

Timbofood

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## lflngpicker

> Fret size and composition do affect tonal quality in varying degrees...


Hey Nick, Where are you, my friend?  Been missing hearing from you.  I hope to catch you this spring at the Temecula BG Fest.

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