# General Mandolin Topics > Vintage Instruments >  1923 Loar at Christies

## Charles E.

This is coming up Oct. 14th, do any of the experts know this instrument? I have no plans to bid, just wondering about it.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/g...4-ee9973493a17

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## Charles E.

It looks like the large scroll on the peg head was broken off at one time.

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## Clement Barrera-Ng

Estimate $70,000 - $90,000.....  Something tells me that's probably a bit conservative  :Mandosmiley:

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## f5loar

They got's lots of fiddles and bows to auction off.   They tend to be low ballers on estimates.  This Loar is not a side bound July 9th.
It's nowhere near collector's conditon but is a really fine picker's dream mandolin (you don't have to worries about putting a pick scratch on it.).   It's in the F5Journal listings and a well known Loar.  Very nice and punchy.  Cut's like a 45 and drives like a Cadillac.

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## Jonathan James

Plus there is a rather hefty "processing" fee with these auctions, isnt there?

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## almeriastrings

Yes... horrendous fees with Christies. They call it a "buyers premium". That makes it sound like something good, something you'd aspire too, maybe? The truth is rather different!

http://www.christies.com/features/gu...s-premium.aspx

I would be pretty sure this will generate an extra 20% of "premium". You could buy yourself a nice Gil with that....and probably a Nugget too.

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## Glassweb

"buyer's premium" my ass... what a bunch of BS! all the major auction houses (except maybe Skinner) are colluding criminals. i know... i was a winner in a huge collusion lawsuit involving Sotheby's and Christie's several years ago. in the end the premium really has no effect on the bidders... everyone bidding takes the "premium" into account when they bid so the hammer price may actually be quite low. "oh the prestige and glamour of the auction world"... phooey! sez I... they screw people from both ends now!

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## f5loar

And pick it up in person and they add another 7 to 9% state sales tax to it.  Or ship it out of state and they sock it to you on their 3rd party shipping company.

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## Glassweb

You know Tom, t'wasn't all that long ago that there were no "buyer's premiums". yes, we all get to support these "houses of ill repute" but with no dividends! of course Ebad is the biggest scam of all. at least the houses make an effort to guarantee authenticity. Ebad should be shut down. Hey, ask me how I REALLY feel!

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## Links

> You know Tom, t'wasn't all that long ago that there were no "buyer's premiums". yes, we all get to support these "houses of ill repute" but with no dividends! of course Ebad is the biggest scam of all. at least the houses make an effort to guarantee authenticity. Ebad should be shut down. Hey, ask me how I REALLY feel!


Alan  -  as always, you are right on the money.  I have pointed out numerous times that these auction houses (Christies & Sothebys) are as you describe them and are bona fide and documented crooks.  That should not stop people from using their services  -  just go in with open eyes and know who you are dealing with.  In addition to their ridiculous "buyers premium", they also charge the seller a premium (probably 15 - 20%), plus fees for insuring, photographing (for catalog), etc.  You are correct that buyers figure in the premium when bidding, so ultimately the seller is the one that takes about a 40% hit for the privilege of these bozos selling their property.

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## Bernie Daniel

> Alan  -  as always, you are right on the money.  I have pointed out numerous times that these auction houses (Christies & Sothebys) are as you describe them and are bona fide and documented crooks.  That should not stop people from using their services  -  just go in with open eyes and know who you are dealing with.  In addition to their ridiculous "buyers premium", they also charge the seller a premium (probably 15 - 20%), plus fees for insuring, photographing (for catalog), etc.  You are correct that buyers figure in the premium when bidding, so ultimately the seller is the one that takes about a 40% hit for the privilege of these bozos selling their property.


So when it comes to something like a vintage stringed instrument why does anyone bother to sell with them? 

There are several (at least) very reputable instruments dealers that will consign and advertise and that can facilitate big money transactions between individuals (sellers and buyers) --- e.g., Elderly's or Mandolin Brothers etc.

I know that the big automobile auction houses are the same way -- I watched a '68 Plymouth Hemi-Cuda (one of fifty) go for about $200K on the Barrett-Jackson Auction and the commentators described all the buyer's and seller's fees that were attached to the deal -- they were a *significant percentage* of the winning bid.  But there at least you have the advantage of presenting to thousands of the deep-pockets car buyers all assembled in the stands and on-line.

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## Charles E.

I was interested in the mandolin (thanks F5loar for your comment), not the ethics of auction houses.

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## mtucker

> I was interested in the mandolin (thanks F5loar for your comment), *not the ethics of auction houses*.


that's what you get on an open forum ... i think folks were just looking out for everyone's best interest by providing some 'auction speak' and commentary on commissions, etc. upwards of 30% commish, is no small matter by any stretch..

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## Charles E.

mtucker, thanks but I clearly stated that I had no intention of bidding on it. I think glassweb, who I was hopeing, might know this mandolin, got burned in the past and was expressing his frustration. It's cool though, I just thought it is a nice mandolin and was hopeing for a little back story.

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## Glassweb

Charley - I've never seen or played that one. And yes, I've had a couple of bad experiences with Sotheby's and Christie's... although Christie's doorman in NYC is the coolest guy in the world!

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## mtucker

it's all good. ...i'm with Almeria...i would buy a nice Gil or Nug ...or several Gils and Nugs, instead...  :Grin:

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## Ken Waltham

It looks to me, by the Archive pictures, that this f5 is French polished. If that matters to anyone. It does affect it's originality and price.
Nice wood, somewhat unusual on the back. I like it.
Ken

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## Links

> It looks to me, by the Archive pictures, that this f5 is French polished. If that matters to anyone. It does affect it's originality and price.
> Nice wood, somewhat unusual on the back. I like it.
> Ken


There you go Charley  -  one of a number of folks on this site that know what they are talking about.  I always try and alert bidders that just about all of these auction houses have fees and rules that may not be apparent to some potential bidders.  You may know that the auction house is allowed to bid on an item to get the price up to a level that they think is appropriate.  Sometimes you are bidding against another bidder  -  sometimes against a lamp post!

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## Charles E.

Thanks to all the replys, let's see what it brings. Flaws and all, it is a pretty mandolin.

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## JFDilmando

well... this Loar went for $85,000 hammer price... close to $100,000 with fees I would expect...  for my two cents, a telling price reflecting what we have all recognized as a continuing down market....  When was the last bonified $100,000 documented sale of a Loar ?? Anyone ?   i would expect that Elderly, Ghrun, and Mandolin Bros, might take notice with their 5 or so Loars still listed for $150k-225k.
JohnD

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## pjlama

Very interesting, I wonder who bought it. I'd imagine it will be held for a while and reappear for twice the auction price. I guess we can sit back and wait to see where and when it surfaces.

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## William Smith

100 G for that Loar?Hey there is some serius financial issues goin on in this country,,so whoever wants 200 or 250G for their Loar ,,best O'luck to ya,, just sit on em and they'll go up again...

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## Gary Hedrick

I think the value issue is hitting the Loar era F4's as well.  Not that long ago $9,800 was not out of the question.....today.....selling for $7k or less is likely.

The money isn't there to do it at the truly big bucks and has found its way into the less valuable ones  too.

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## f5loar

Don't discount this was a picker's Loar not a collector's Loar.  Generally speaking a picker has less money to spend on a Loar than a collector.  I doubt any serious collectors even bid on this one.  I can think of only one Loar with a broken headstock bring more money than market value.

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## Gary Hedrick

Tom, that is a very good point. Some of these Loars at Elderly and Gruhn are truly "pristine" and also are unique with the date etc.
But that said, it wasn't that long ago that even picker's Loars were $150k. So if these folks really want to sell now then the price will be reduced. 
Or better yet, take them back and sell them here for $20% less (which is what they would net anyway).......

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## barry

f5loar says,

"Don't discount this was a picker's Loar not a collector's Loar. Generally speaking a picker has less money to spend on a Loar than a collector."....... 

Realistically, there are only 250 or so Loar-signed mandolins out there.  They are ALL, technically, collectible.  Certainly some are more desirable than others.  I don't think there are any pickers out there willing and able to pay 100 large for a mandolin unless they are a collector on some level.  Admittedly, this instrument has some issues that would prevent it from being in the top tier of Loars. However, it was not a re-finish, re-top, re-neck, re-glued.....you get the point.  Still a very beatiful piece.

I think the price is very indicative of the state of the market as a whole, not just for Loar mandolins, and other vintage instruments.  All "collectibles" are taking a hit right now.

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## f5loar

I can name 3 "pros" that have bought Loars in the past few years way over $100K and they were all picker's grade.  None of these pros are collectors.  They just wanted a really good mandolin no matter the price or condition and they all seem to have found what they wanted.  A collector on the other hand will go beyond market value to find what they want thereby making this one not even in the running to a collector.  It is not investment grade.  Like in vintage cars you got your daily drivers and then you got your ready for Barrett Jackson Auctions.  There are Loars that change hands without the general public even knowing what price was exchanged.  By the time a Loar reaches the big dealers it has already been passed over by the big wheel collectors.  The majority of serious collectors who wanted Loars already have them.  I know plenty of collectors that have such pristine examples of the F5 you would think it had to be newly refinished.  I've seen some with the silver still on the top of the tuners.  Now that's mint because it means it's not had too many changes of strings on it.

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## Links

Quote:  "The majority of serious collectors who wanted Loars already have them."

Tom, if that's indeed the case then there is not much of a market for them and some of the steep prices that we have seen in recent years must be way out of whack.  People that are paying 100k for a "players" mandolin may not be collectors, but you can bet your sweet fanny that they must think that their value will be maintained or increased.  If that is the case then they are "investors" and you know what kind of advice people posting here get when they ask about instruments as investments. :Wink:

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## greg_tsam

Yea, I learned what a "buyer's premium" was the hard way.  I thought I was getting a great deal and wondered why the other bidders dropped out.  I messed with the Bull and got the HORNS.   :Smile:   Lesson learned and well paid for.




> "buyer's premium" my ass... what a bunch of BS! all the major auction houses (except maybe Skinner) are colluding criminals. i know... i was a winner in a huge collusion lawsuit involving Sotheby's and Christie's several years ago. in the end the premium really has no effect on the bidders... everyone bidding takes the "premium" into account when they bid so the hammer price may actually be quite low. "oh the prestige and glamour of the auction world"... phooey! sez I... they screw people from both ends now!

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## jmalmsteen

Mandolin Brothers is still asking that much for their F-4. I think 7k is fair. Where have you seen them for this much? (I would like one of these if I see one for a good price)

Since there are so few Loars, they are all collector instruments. If you are spending 100k, you know about the value of these instruments so even if you bought it to play everyday, with such a significant investment you are a collector to many people even if you do not label yourself as such.

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## mtucker

There's a fine line between a 'collector' and a 'hoarder'!  ....this guys a hoarder!  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## Gary Hedrick

> Mandolin Brothers is still asking that much for their F-4. I think 7k is fair. Where have you seen them for this much? (I would like one of these if I see one for a good price)
> 
> Since there are so few Loars, they are all collector instruments. If you are spending 100k, you know about the value of these instruments so even if you bought it to play everyday, with such a significant investment you are a collector to many people even if you do not label yourself as such.


If you are looking for a Loar era F4...the classifieds has at least 2 of them....a 24 for 7k  and a 22 for 6.5k....there are a few others out there if you look hard enough....

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## Gary Hedrick

Oops I spoke too soon.....looks like Ken Waltham's F4 is sold but the 22 is still there.

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## mritter

Regarding the Loar instruments that have been on the market for a while...Seems fairly simple to me.  If they aren't selling then it's one of two things;

1. There is something 'wrong' with them, or
2. They're priced too high.

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## f5loar

or................ their owners don't have to sell them unless they get their price.  No doubt the downturn in the world's economy has forced some low sales of anything of value.  I just bought a .5liter bottle of Pepsi Max and got one free without asking.

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## Links

*Warning  -  don't pay any attention to posts by forum members who own Loars   -  or by posters (like me) that want to own one![*B][/B]

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## Gary Hedrick

?????   well then let's put another bunch into that group....anyone that has owned one.....played one....admired one from afar and well heck......anyone that's read a article or posting about one.......

There that covers 95% of the mandolin world......

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## f5loar

...........or dreamed of owning one.  It's been rumored that under the influence of Propfal Michael Jackson wanted to own a July 9th, 1923 reserve binding F5 Loar.  I know of a few others that have dreamed of owning one.  And then you got pickers like Chris Hillman that was just given one by his best buddy at the time.

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## AlanN

Now, f5loar:

I Still Nash teeth over that one, cause once we were Young, but are now over the Hill, Man

 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## evanreilly

And some of us is over the hill to the poorhouse.....  as well!!!!

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