# Instruments and Equipment > Videos, Pictures & Sound Files >  Loar Picture of the Day

## Darryl Wolfe

Serial No. 73732 #July 9, 1923 "Top Bound"

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## mandodude

Darryl,

Thanks for the pic, man!! I hope you're serious about this "Loar Picture of the Day" thing... I think it's a great idea! Boy, if _anybody's_ got Loar pics to share with us, it's gotta be you!!

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## J. Wiens

Thanks Darryl, you gonna spoil us with one of these everyday?   ....Kidding! Your posts are always insightful and very much appreciated.......Jamie

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## Darryl Wolfe

..can't promise "everyday"..but we'll see..I'll try for 5-7/week

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## tope

Thx F5, I would love to see more pics. I bought the F5 journal because I had read that there were lots of pics in it. that doesn't seem to be the case. As I recall 2 peghead pics, but a good buy anyhow with lots of good info.   Gary

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## Spruce

> I bought the F5 journal because I had read that there were lots of pics in it. that doesn't seem to be the case. As I recall 2 peghead pics, but a good buy anyhow with lots of good info. # # Gary


Hmmm...
I just counted 16 or so peghead pics in "The F5 Journal", and other pics of Lloyd, catalogs and a few instruments...

The Journal is simply a must-have for anyone even remotely interested in the Loars...a very cool resource indeed...

I don't think you can get enough Loar pics, so a hearty "thank you" to Darryl for this thread...

Pics of the points are especially helpful as I'm putting together my own Loar these days...

Thanks!

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## tope

I appologize, hangs his head. there are more pics than I had remembered...Gary

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## Darryl Wolfe

Spruce/Bruce..I know where you got that..I couldn't shake it out..dgw

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992 July 9, 1923 "side bound" (mine)

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

70281 June 1, 1922 The First Loar Mandolin (may be last post til Tues)

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## Tom C

Thanks for the online museum of Loars!

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## evanreilly

Does 70281 have the 3-piece neck?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yes..other anomolies..double bound body..single bound p/g..odd truss rod location..both labels in ink/Loars handwriting w/signiture label under bass f-hole..arrow end tuners in the correct position (8 months before they show up again) odd p/g bracket..ebony f/b extender piece...original F4 nickle tailpiece..mitered corner on f/b binding....nearly 6 month between this and next signed Loar

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## Kevin K

Thanks for sharing the pictures.

Those are nice to see first thing this morning.

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## avanti

Hey, #73732 is my mandolin! Kinda like seeing a picture of your girlfriend someone else posted on the Internet.

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## Bradley

That is so awesome.....

You really know how to hurt a guy::D

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## Jim Hilburn

What gets missed most by modern builders is how close to the fingerboard the scroll is. Is that explained by the off-center ,assymetric nature of of Loars?

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## Darryl Wolfe

absolutely..the dovetail is cut left of center and at a slight angle so that the centerline of neck crosses the centerline of the body at or near the bridge

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## Darryl Wolfe

73013 April 25, 1923

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## Charlie Derrington

It is also interesting to note that the original blueprint for the tuner placement is also correct. It is dated 7/27/22.

Hey Bruce.......where did you get the fixture?

Charlie

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## BenE

What is the difference between the top bound and the side bound? I'm looking at the pics but can't seem to figure it out...
Thanks,

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## Darryl Wolfe

I know where he got the fixture if it's the one I have some pics of......It never left Kalamazoo

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## Darryl Wolfe

Top bound ..black line on top
Side bound...black line on side..like Monroe's
Double bound..(The '22)...White/black..on top
Single bound..white only

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## Spruce

> absolutely..the dovetail is cut left of center and at a slight angle so that the centerline of neck crosses the centerline of the body at or near the bridge


Wow...
I thought so...
The 2 non-symetrical side buttons are kinda a giveaway, no?
How much off center?
Do the Morgan (or any other) plans depict this?

Great thread!

"Hey Bruce.......where did you get the fixture?"

I've been collecting Loar pics for awhile now in anticipation of building one (man, now I know why I gave up building these things&#33, but I'm not really sure where that picture came from...

Darryl....
Have you ever noticed how many of the Loars have miss-matched tops? I've seen a few and would love to know how many are made from 2 different spruce trees...

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## Darryl Wolfe

None of the plans accurately depict the off center neck. The original F5L plans do show the offset neck angle..but not really correctly. The new master models are very close.
I have pics on this subject..will post or send some

Mismatched spruce....haven't noticed/paid attention to this..will investigate

The F5 form..the person that has it doesn't think it is from the Loar era, however I do. He says the shape is off...but the shape would be off if you compared it to a Kalamazoo F5L that you thought was correct..eh

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## Charlie Derrington

Yup.

It probably came from the huge Kzoo auction in '84. I find the bolt "hole" in the headblock area very interesting.

I think I've mentioned it before, but the necks really aren't that far off center. It's just that the scroll throws the center-line out of whack. If one digitally removes the scroll and point, things are pretty well centered. However, due the the hand-work nature of dovetail neck-fits, there are differing levels of being off-center in different Loars. 

Charlie

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## Spruce

On most Loars I've seen, the "buttons" at the 15th fret are non-symetrical by a millimeter or two....
Is that about how far the neck is off the center line, thus affecting the shape and size of the button....?
Or is it more extreme?

We've had huge discussions (ad nausem, in fact) both here and on Comando regarding miss-matched spruce in the Loars...
It _is_ an interesting topic, IMO, and not just because I'm a woodcutter...(g).
John Reischmann's, for example, is obviously made from 2 very different trees, and I remember seeing several others at Loarfest several years ago....
I think it's odd that during a period when most of the A's were made from anal-retentively bookmatched wood, the top-of-the-line flagship mando is cobbled together from 2 un-matched pieces...

This was a common _intentional_ technique used in 17th century Italian making, for example, which begs the question "was it intentional in the Loars"?...

I like the idea, myself....

PS...
Sorry to yank the pic of the Loar form....
Apparently it wasn't supposed to exist...(g).

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## Charlie Derrington

I've noticed the un-matched aspects of certain Loar tops, also. However, I always assumed they were flip-matched instead of book-matched. The ones I've seen (and remembered) have the same grain line-per-inch count on each side. I don't remember John's.

Charlie

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## ronlane3

Okay, GREAT topic and a lot of very knowledgeable people are weighing in on this. I have one question, if you are right about the mismatched tops and bottoms, could this be a contributing factor in why the Loar's sound so wonderful????

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## Jim Hilburn

Bruce ,I wasn't sure at first what you meant by buttons ,but I think you mean the things on the side of the fingerboard where the cross-piece goes through ,half headblock and half extension. I looked at that on Caleb Roberts Loar ,and what they did on the scroll side was cut away a large part of the "button" to make the scroll opening look right.So that side is generally smaller for that reason ,not nessesarily because of the off-center issue.

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## Spruce

John R.'s is a total miss-match...
That's pretty cool really...

It's sometimes hard to detect whether a top is matched or not, but if you "gunsight" it right over the tailpiece, usually the graining is a lot easier to spot...

This works with actual-size pictures in a book, too...(g).

After the whole miss-matched top discussions, Will Kimble made a real nice A model with Engelmann in the bass side and Red in the treble, and it was amazing how the woods matched up...
And it wasn't 'bursted...
Kinda blonde, in fact...

Sounded good, too....

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Nice pics Daryl !!!!!!

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## J. Wiens

Jim, You said :"what they did on the scroll side was cut away a large part of the "button" to make the scroll opening look right.So that side is generally smaller for that reason ,not nessesarily because of the off-center issue"

The experts will correct me if I'm way off here, but I think this IS the meat of the off-center issue ....When you have the scroll and it's opening that close to the neck, it necessarily makes the neck joint area LOOK off center, unless you re-shaped the opposite (point) side to match.
 # Another thing is, what's center on an assymetrical instrument like the F-5? The top joint? Not necessarily...Due to the nature of copy carving machinery (which, I understand was used to carve to plates of the Loars) and their cutter rotation ,it's common to have plates being carved a tad off the planned center....I've found this in my own work. It matters little though because the top joint is hidden at either end by the Fretboard extender and the tailpiece.
  So I guess I'm saying that though the dovetail mortise may appear off center when compared to the top joint does that truly indicate that the neck was planned to be "off center" ?
  I think the combination of the two factors I mentioned could be the reason for this strange bit of "off center Loar Lore" . What I find most important in my work is the alignment of the scrolls on the top & back regardless of the plate centerlines, and I suspect this was the primary concern for the guys that built the Loars....ok that's my theory, #rip me a new one fellas. *g*..........Jamie

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## Spruce

"Another thing is, what's center on an assymetrical instrument like the F-5? "

Funny you mention this...
I have a tracing of the original F5 form (supposedly), with no centerline indicated...
I've put this tracing up against the Davis and Morgan plans, and it's a crapshoot as to where I'm gonna stick the center line...they are in 2 different places by a considerable margin...

Anyway, I'm gonna download one of these wonderful Loar pics, size it in Photoshop to actual size, hold my pattern up to the computer screen, and mark where the neck goes...

So thanks for the template, Darryl...(g).

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## ethanopia

You mean I miss checking this message for two days and a great thread like this pops up. Man that'll learn me!

thanks for the cool pics and keep em up,

-e

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## Jim Hilburn

Darryl ,I'd like to know how your posting such great photo's and staying within the file size limits.

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## Kent Barnes

&lt;"Loar Expert" hat on - even know I know pretty much nothing about them. #This is all in good fun!&gt;

Seeing as how these Loars were basically all hand made, these slight discrepencies could be nothing more than variences in how each individual instrument was crafted. #I have a feeling Mr. Loar is may be laughing in his grave at how we are all trying to scientifically analyze his creations in an attempt to capture the tone he created in his mandolins. 
No disrespect to all those who know so much about these wonderful instruments. #They are a thing of beauty, and I can certainly see why everyone wants to duplicate them (myself included). #Just a thought.


&lt;"Loar Expert" hat off&gt;

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## John Jesseph

Thanks for the great discussion! Looking at the straight on shot above, you can see the 15th fret ivoroid projects out from the fretboard less on the bass side than the treble side. I got out my new Siminoff drawings, and he shows the neck offset this way, with the bass side ivoroid at about 5mm and the treble ivoroid about 8mm+. I understand what Jamie is saying about the centerline of the top joint being off, but if you use the apex of the heelblock as the upper midline, the neck is definitely offset to the bass side, regardless of where the top joint is. Interesting. I planned on retooling a bit on my next mandolin, so I will incorporate this detail!

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## evanreilly

DGW:
Weren't you at one time planning on releasing a 'coffee-table' book with pictures of Loar instruments, in conjunction with the _Journal_?? #That still a plan?

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## oldwave maker

sorry about the quality, I had to downsize considerably, this is the top of John Reischmanns feb18 loar, different grain width and alignment from a local feb18 1924 a couple of serial numbers away
Mr hillburn, if you're coming to pagosa, bring $, Mr harvie will be ther with maple and spruce fer sale! if not, just tell drew to bring you some early xmas presents!

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## Spruce

Wow Bill...
Thanks for that pic of John's mando top....
I've been trying to (unsucessfully) take a pic of that graining for years now....

Yep, I'll be at Pagosa this year....
I'm on the hunt for Blue Spruce in un-matched 1/2's for future Loars, and really looking forward to the road trip...

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## Darryl Wolfe

Hi guys..I'm back from Phoenix..I'll post some stuff in the morning...I am glad the thread did'nt fall behind...

I think the Riechsman Loar has major grain runout..but I haven't studied the pic well yet...will be in touch tomor

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## Darryl Wolfe

By the wat ...my provider cut me off on the "bandwidth traffic" to do with this thread...I'm working on a solution..

To the gut that questioned the resolution issue..I simply pointed the pics to my homepage on another server...but they don't like the overall traffic

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## JimW

Thought I would add a few to the list. Here's one of Lloyd Loar's signature. The mandolin is top bound and serial number 75317. All the following pictures are of the same mandolin.

Jim

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## JimW

Here's the headstock.

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## JimW

Here's a front shot.

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## JimW

Here's the dated label.

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## JimW

And finally one of the back.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Hi Folks...I'm working on a new website so that I can post more pics...my account was turned off for "too much traffic/bandwidth". I should be going sometime Wed or Thurs from f5journal.com

Charlie D...I've got some nice pics of you and your first Dec 11 '23 and the Unsigned that will be going up. That should get some good "who is that masked man" chatter going.

Here's a preview

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## Charlie Derrington

Good Golly!!

I had no idea. How in the world could I have looked so young!

That particular Dec.11 was a killer mandolin.

Charlie

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## Hal Jeanes

Charlie, I can sort of remember you looking like that. ha ha

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## fretted1

JR in Action, Mission BC, July 03

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## mandopete

Hey, what's up with that strap? #It looks like one of those funny mando straps that Grisman uses.

Actually, now that I look the picture a little closer I see that it is an optical illusion. The "strap" around his neck is actually the strap for the name-tag. The mando strap is actually laying down.

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## mando nut

Yep, and it's a kangaroo strap, at that!

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## Darryl Wolfe

I haven't abandoned you'all. Site is up, but I'm having trouble FTP'ing thru our firewall.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Were fixed now..more to come

Darryl

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## Darryl Wolfe

The 10 string mando-viola ##70321

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## Tom C

What is implied by "mando-viola"? Is it the same as a 10 string mandola? I love this post.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Essentially..I'm not sure how it was intended to be tuned. It does have a period mandola body..but with 2 plain and 3 wound sets of strings. When I played it, the strings were loose..and I simply tuned it up to where it felt right..but I don't know where it was at. I don't know where the "mando-viola" term was coined or captured from though

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## danb

I recall the mando-viola was Eb Bb F C F (bass to treble) which is similar to a lot of Irish Bouzouki/mandola tunings.. I used GDAEA which is 1.5 steps up from that.

Back when it was on the block at Mandolin Bros, I think I read that it was intended to fill the range of a mandola & mandolin at the same time so Loar could use it for Mandolin Orchestra playing (gaining felexibility)

Darryl- do you have the scale length on it? I'd be able to make a pretty good guess at what tunings would work on it as it's effectively an Irish Cittern or "10-string mandola" class instrument.

This one has fascinated me for years, especially in light of the fact that it's unique. Vega made 10-string cylinderback mandolins that were CGDAE tuned, and there were a few other scarce examples.. but vintage 10-stringers are pretty rare comparatively, and a Loar one even more so!

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## Darryl Wolfe

I'll get the scale length from the owner. I still have the Mando Bros flyer on it too..will check it

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## Darryl Wolfe

The Loar A-5 #74003 Sept. 10, 1923 #Pics of pic aren't so good..I'll start scanning them

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## Darryl Wolfe

Tut and I with it when he had it borrowed last year

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## Charlie Derrington

Darryl, you are correct about the serial numbers.

Wish I still had them both.

Charlie

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## danb

We had a couple threads about 10-stringers on coMando recently too. It's interesting, the consensus among the F5 builders seems to be that they "don't work" as such, generally tending to be weak on either the treble or the bass. I've not tried a 10-string with f-holes, but the oval-holed ones seem to be quite successful, or perhaps you could simply say that that "Weakness" isn't as pronouced as it's said to be.

I think part of it might be that the sound that is expected from an f-holed instrument is pushing the limits of the wood more so than an oval-holed instrument might.. The f5 sound to me is a combination of punchy treble, some woof underneath it, and a midrange that isn't as strong.. where the oval holes are almost all midrange with lots of overtones. Or Maybe oval-holed mandos just have that much more midrange. Or more overtones. Hmm, F5s are more "Clear" I suppose, which means fundamental. Maybe.

Here're some typical scale lengths & tunings for the Irish bouzoukis.. which are really more like modified mandocellos, though the history is kind of complex:

10-string Mandola: 20.5-21" scale length
GDAEA GDGDG
GCGDA AEAEA
ADAEA (etc)

10-string Bouzouki: 24-25" scale length
DGDAD DAEAE
DAEBE CGDAD
CGDAE DGDAE (etc)

So my guess is the mando-viola must be between 21 & 23 inches scale length or so?

I've seen Monteleone Grand Artist 10-stringers (one on Larry Wexer's site now I think), and Mandolin Bros had an Apitius 10-string (looks to be inspired by 70321 from the pictures I saw). 

Do you know of any recordings using 70321? I lived in San Jose for the last 3 years but never managed to get in touch with the owner to see if I could have a peek at it.

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## Brian Aldridge

DGW, post a pic of the back of 73013. Surely you have a shot of that...

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## danb

Hmm, one of the tuning pegs goes right through the "G" in "The Gibson" inlay, funny. Reminds me of that super-clean Fern at Gryphon a few months ago that had pegs right through the fern inlay.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> (Brian) DGW, post a pic of the back of 73013. Surely you have a shot of that...


I don't have it..someone sent me the pic a while back...
Am I messed up, I thought this was yours..or is it in Eastern NC at the home of WJ?

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## Brian Aldridge

You're not messed up. 73013 is mine. WJ took those pics in Nashville and emailed them to me, but they were lost when my comp was reconfigured. I would post one, but I can't seem to get the size small enough. Maybe I can get WJ to send them to me again. Thanks for your effort in this, it is quite enjoyable. The pics of the young Charlie D. are great. That was about the time I first met him. I am looking forward to your website

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## Darryl Wolfe

Brian..I think I can get the rest

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## Darryl Wolfe

An exceptionally beautiful early Loar. 
72857 April 12, 1923 w/Virzi

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## Darryl Wolfe



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## Darryl Wolfe



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## Darryl Wolfe



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## Tom C

My key board keeps getting wet from the drool. Maybe scott should make up a Loar section with all these pics. They make great backgrounds.

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## JD Cowles

OK, OK, enough already...that may be the most beautiful mandolin i have ever seen. #this thread is somewhere between nirvana and torture...i'm not sure if i could stop looking even if i wanted to...too much drool...hands shaking...must mortgage house...MAS taking...over... ahahahdhghgagltehtekthhhhhhhttphhhhtllll!!!!!!!!

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## Scotti Adams

..hmmm has the nut shrunk? or its obviously been replaced...

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## Charlie Derrington

I don't remember having worked on that particular mandolin, but I can almost promise that is the original nut. It's very common to see Loar nuts smaller than the neck width. I don't believe they shrunk, but I guess salt water pearl could lose water content ????

Anyway, I'd bet it's original.

Charlie

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## Scotti Adams

..I guess Im gonna have to pay better attention...I dont recall seeing a nut on a Loar that doesnt come to each edge of the fingerboard...thanks Charlie

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## danb

Tom C: We're on it (and then some! )

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## Darryl Wolfe

Most Loar nuts look that way..I agree with Charlie that they probably do lose something over the years

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## Darryl Wolfe

The "shoplifted" Loar. 79833 Dec. 1, 1924

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## Darryl Wolfe

more

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## Darryl Wolfe



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## mandopete

All of these pictures are enough to make a grown man cry, thanks Daryl!

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## Darryl Wolfe

One of my favorite scroll pics (73992)
"The way they should look"
Makes a great wallpaper, especially if you color match
your desktop (120:0, 240:125, 59:125)

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## phynie

that last picture is beautiful. thanks!

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## Scotti Adams

..has the front of the peghead been redone on that "shoplifted Loar" ?...the binding looks fairly white compared to the rest of the mando...

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## Charlie Derrington

It was standard in late '24s to have white peghead binding and ivoroid body binding. 

By middle '25 all of the binding was white.

Charlie

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## Clamdigger

Charlie, what is the nut width on the 1923's? Thanks  Clamdigger

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## ethanopia

Is that the original finish on the top of the shoplifted loar?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Everything appears original except for the hardware

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## Darryl Wolfe

The nut width on my 23 is 1" as I recall..I will double check but I'm pretty sure. This is the narrowest that you will see..and generally shows up on the mid '23's

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## Darryl Wolfe

Charlie is quite correct...The triple bound on the face/white binding first appears at the end of the Feb 18, 24 batch and generally continues until the end of Loar production. This is the "mismatched binding" concept I have spoken about..or.. by contrast these mandos are not quite as clean, smooth congruous, violinesque looking as most '23's are

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## Darryl Wolfe



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## Scotti Adams

..nice lookin Loar...thats the first time Ive seen an original case with the red interior....Ive only seen the green...

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## Darryl Wolfe

A nice peghead shot. 73682, June 1923. #Note that the "dirt" and flowerpot base are always dark abalone, the ball is egg shaped and generally white pearl. #The tuner set on the left side is always mounted higher. #The cut-out for the scroll is wider than most people do their mandos..and note that the binding miter always points directly to the right, not slightly up or down.

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## Ken Waltham

That's very cool. I think I owned that sidebound, but know for sure I own two of the's you've posted currently.
Darry, do you have photos of 73682? I feel this is one the most historically signifigant Loars in existence.
Folks should see the "June" F5, with it's unusual appointments.
Ken

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## Ken Waltham

Holy cats!!, please disregard the spelling mistakes!

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## tope

f5journl, The left tuner is always a bit higher? is this only on the flowerpot or on all the different inlays? How much higher? ....Gary

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## Darryl Wolfe

It's just a minor anomaly..I'm not sure about the "ferns"..Gibson had alot of "template errors in those days that are neat authentic touches..ones that a person may or may not wish to duplicate. If you are into banjos, note how the double cut peghead is not cut as deep on the right side...shows up on every one of them

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## Darryl Wolfe

75700 February 18, 1924 - This is a fine example of the February and March 24 mandolins that are "black"..having a significant traces of black stain instead of the more walnut color to the sunburst. #They are also typified by more prominent whiter binding (including the pickguard)

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## Scotti Adams

..now thats one great lookin axe...I love that color...very cool lookin...

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## Spruce

> "Gibson had alot of "template errors in those days that are neat authentic touches..ones that a person may or may not wish to duplicate."


Darryl...
Keep this stuff comin'...!
Great info as to why these instruments look and feel the way that they do...

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## ronlane3

Darryl, I'm having withdrawals, I desparately waitin on today's pic. I need my fix before the weekend. Please, this is killing me.:p :D

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## Tom C

On the peghead shot above you state....
"and note that the binding miter always points directly to the right, not slightly up or down."
Can you elaborate please?

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## Charles Johnson

Heres a pic of my December 1, 1924
Regards,
Charles Johnson

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## Charles Johnson

Heres the back side
Regards,
Charles Johnson

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## Darryl Wolfe

82369 "Unsigned" '25/26 Flowerpot

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## Darryl Wolfe

Charles, Is that 79836?

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## Darryl Wolfe

> On the peghead shot above you state....
> "and note that the binding miter always points directly to the right, not slightly up or down."
> Can you elaborate please?


[QUOTE]

Where the binding comes together..on the cut-out for the larger scroll on the peghead...the binding points right. Most people stop short or go too far around

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## Michael Gowell

Daryl - Thank you for this series - I'm loving it. #Could you please explain by what criterion the "unsigned 25/26 flowerpot" instrument is a "Loar"? If he didn't sign it (said signature supposedly guaranteeing that LL actually tested & approved that specific instrument), and in fact that the instrument was manufactured after LL's departure from Gibson, how can it be called a "Loar"?

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## Spruce

Hey MM...
Check out this thread...

It pretty much covers it...

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## Darryl Wolfe

MM...that is the reason for the quotes around unsigned. It is not a Loar as such but bears all aspects of a Loar, and usually has the same stamp number on the headblock as an actual Loar instrument, indicating that it was started along with an instrument that indeed is a signed Loar

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## Darryl Wolfe

H5 Mandola, Signed by Lloyd Loar on Oct 7, 1924 (w/Virzi)

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## fishdawg40

> H5 Mandola, Signed by Lloyd Loar on Oct 7, 1924 (w/Virzi)


What is (a) Virzi?

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## Darryl Wolfe

A thin oval spruce disc suspended from the top which was intended to produce more overtones. #Hence "Virzi Tone Producer". #Their ability/value in accomplishing that is highly argumentative. #The general opinion is that they do not, but should not be removed. #Be aware that the sound they were trying to achieve then may not be what we look for now. #But they only were installed for a couple of years and for all practical purposes they dissapeared along with Lloyd Loar.

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## evanreilly

Here is a Virzi I have that I found after it had been surgically removed.
Is that mandola the one that Zepp had for sale a while back?

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## evanreilly

Here is a picture of a Virzi Tone Producer in an A-style instrument.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yes that's the "Zepp" instrument. Price was around $39K

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## Spruce

"...and usually has the same stamp number on the headblock as an actual Loar instrument..."

You wouldn't happen to have any pics of this stamp number kicking around, would you Darryl?....
I've never eye-balled a Loar through the endpin hole....

Thanks!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Good question..I'll see if I can figure out how to take one

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## evanreilly

Use a dental or inspection mirror.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Not exactly a picture of a Loar, but an
interesting exercise. #This is the earliest
catalog illustration of an F5. #It appears in 
Catalog N. The mandolin shown has a Fern (only a 
handful of '24's have a fern). #It is double bound 
(only one has that). #The pickguard bracket has not been
seen on any F5's, and the arrow end tuners do not appear
until March '23. #All catalog illustrations after this
depict a typical flowerpot F5 with correct appointments.

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## Charlie Derrington

There are a lot of things with this mando that are odd.

Look at the carving on the back, near the heel. Looks like F-4 (or early 22 f-5) carving with the ridge down the middle of the back.

I wonder if it was very early and re-appointed for the N catalog. As an aside, the Virzi stuff in that catalog is neat.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

My original photo of Dr. William Griffith,
Atlanta School of Music. #He is holding 72615,
March 27, 1923, which was my 1st Loar. #
The Lloyd Loar A-5 was made for his wife.

----------


## Spruce

"The Lloyd Loar A-5 was made for his wife."

Any truth to the story that the couple ordered matching Loars, but she thought that the scroll got in the way of her breast, thus creating the only Loar A5?

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Hey Spruce........

Look at the bridge placement on the Griffith Loar. Sure is pretty far forward.

Charlie

----------


## John Ritchhart

Well, Charlie, a sharp dresser is gonna want a sharp instrument.

----------


## jasona

how cool is that--to see the equivalent of a high school year book photo of your grandad, seeing your Loar in that old photo Daryl. Keep them coming please!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Spruce..I have heard that story..but it's likely "Urban Legend"..but it does make some sense..and could be fact

jason..What is particularly strange is that a local young fella/friend here in the Augusta GA area looks exactly like the photo...twins

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76549 March 31, 1924. Fern, dead mint, silver hardware, likely the consumate Loar mandolin. #Regardless of personal preferences, this is the mandolin that the F5 Journal would place in a time capsule as the most representative example of what a Gibson F5 mandolin was intended to be.

----------


## Spruce

Man, that's _already_ been put in a time capsule...!
Wish I'd taken better care of that Frets poster...are there any more of those kicking around anywhere?
I might be an optical illusion, but it sure looks like the tuners on the left side are _much_ higher than the right in the poster pic...true?
Love to see a pic of the back if you happen to have one...
That case!

Now _that's_ drooling material....

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I'll be scanning and posting more pics of this. #This was the only digital pic I have. #The tuner issue in the poster is both true and illusion..it is higher like all Loars, but not as much as it appears. #I think the case is one of the first Pegasus. #The wood, gradiance of finish, and fit on this mando seem "presentation grade". I hate it when one of my friends pays a record price of $10,000 for something like this and you have to twist their arm to convince them they're doing the right thing.

----------


## Professor PT

How long ago was that? I'm sure he's grateful for the arm-twisting now. That's quite a return on an investment. So, what's it worth now, at least $100,000?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Professor...I'd say a little more..seems like it was about 1985

73691 June 13, 1923

----------


## Professor PT

So, where does this guy live? Does he have an alarm system installed? Does he have large dogs roaming the property?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

You'd be surprised how many people own $1M+ in instruments. #We don't give names and addresses on open forums though. #I know one guy that has a basement with no windows and you can't see the seam in the carpet where the 4 x 8 trap stairwell opens up. #The fellow with the Fern above owns a solid masonry (floors and all) three story house.

----------


## mandofiddle

A better question I think would be... Does this guy play it? Boy, I hope so...

----------


## Spruce

"You'd be surprised how many people own $1M+ in instruments."

And if you venture into the violin world, $1M seems to be the norm...(g).
Hell, there's a guy here in Seattle who has something like 7-8 Strads...
What's that--$20-25M or so...?

I recently attended a violin workshop with 4 Strads hanging around to have a look at...
Played backup on guitar for 2 fiddlers, each on a Strad...
$3M in each ear...!
Sounded pretty damn good....

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

"Does it play it?"...yes he plays THEM..All three Loar F5's, his Loar mandola and every once in a while one of his other three post Loar ferns. #When he gets tired of that he'll drag out a '34 herringbone or a banjo for kicks.

Spruce, you are so right..I have a friend with a few old Italian violins..and a Vialluame (sp) and a Guanari (sp).no Strads..but makes a new Dudenbostel feel like Pacific Rim

----------


## mandofiddle

Nice. That's what I like to hear. Even though I know I'll never be able to afford a Loar, it makes me feel good to know that someone somewhere is playing them  Especially the near-mint one previously pictured.

----------


## cloyd

So, I'm at a festival in Washington a couple weeks ago that we were playing. Later in the evening its pouring down rain and we're huddled under two leaking tarps with a tiny light hanging from the top. A fella walks in out of the rain with a Takamine guitar out of the case in one hand and a beat up old mando case in the other. He hands me the guitar and we kind of keep playing. Then he pulls out the mando. Its really dark and theres water pouring in everywhere... We play a couple tunes and I'm thinking wow that thing sounds good.  Then he hands it to me and says "pick one for us." I take it and look and its a Feb. 18th '24 Fern Loar.  Needless to say I was pretty blown away.  The next day I went over to where he was camping and looked at it a little closer and all that.  That kinda thing just doesn't happen too much anymore.

----------


## delsbrother

How do the Loar mandolas/mandocellos rate with their respective playing communities? Are they as lusted after as Loar mandolins? If not, why? Rarity? Simply not enough of them?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76549 Fern Loar, March 31, 1924

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

80782 First known post Loar F5 
Identical to Dec 24 Loars
Note broad white binding and the return
to the '22/early '23 inlay and positioning

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The Griffith Loar 72615
March 27, 1923
One of the first Loars with tuners
in the correct position

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The Original F5 and A5 peghead veneer templates
They are dated and have dimensions etched and
have small pin holes for locating the tuners
and truss rod cover. #My Photo, Items courtesy 
of Charlie and Gibson

----------


## Michael Gowell

Friends -forgive my computer illiteracy, but I can't figure out how to view those pics indicated by a boxed red X. #I'm on a high-speed line to a pretty powerful PC (gift from son - no expertise from me.)

"He's the kinda guy, gets a new Maserati, puts the key in the wrong little hole.."

----------


## c3hammer

Maine Michael:

It's not your fault or you computer. I believe somewhere back in this thread f5journl said that he had limited server storage for these pics.

They were here at one point and probably deleted from his server to save space for the next ones.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

My site got hacked over the weekend. Someone uploaded a bunch of porn and stuff. It's closed down and under reconstruction..sorry for the incovenience

----------


## maroon

I can't wait for your site to be back up. I to have 98% "no pics" and am really wanting to see more Loars. Good luck and thanks for doing this.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Loar H5 Mandola, 76493 March 31, 1924

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73752 December 11, 1923

----------


## Darryl Wolfe



----------


## ethanopia

73752 seems to have more redish hue to it. Almost like a teens Red Burst but I guess it could be the lighting?
on a side note...

Skinner has a 27 fern coming up on the block this month. And from the catalog it looks like it isn very nice condition. Hmmmm sell the house buy plane ticket. Pay for fern...probably not a good idea.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73752 has some refin or overspray going on...finish is not totally orig

The Skinner fern is incredibly beautiful..will post some pics later this morning

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

87346 Later Fern. #Note how most post-Loar mandolins
have a flat spot/lump near 16th fret on the scroll (upper right side)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## ethanopia

my favorite thread...thanks and I cant wait for the Gibson project.

On a building note and I may post this question over on the building forum. 

On most vintage F5s it seems like the rim of the f-holes are slightly champhered or rounded over just a bit. Not a real 90 degree cut..is this the way they were new or is this the result or wear?

----------


## John Zimm

Wow, these mandolins are so beautiful I can hardly stand to look at them. Like someone else said, they are just about enough to make a grown man cry.

-Buckley.

----------


## Zed

> Wow, these mandolins are so beautiful I can hardly stand to look at them. #Like someone else said, they are just about enough to make a grown man cry.
> 
> -Buckley.


Geesh, no lie... it's a love/hate kinda thing. Love looking at them, hate the fact i may never get to hold one in my hands. At least i can love 'em from afar thanks to this thread.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

F-holes..yes there is some sort of light chamfer on them. I need to study mine to determine exactly what has been done there..will get back

----------


## GTison

I don't understand the "flat spot". could you hilight it or show pics of one with and one without? the 16 fret seem almost past the scroll. my modern fern has somewhat of a flat spot too. I wondered if it was intentional. very impressive!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

It's somewhat difficult to describe, and these are not the best examples..pic 1 is a Loar..the next two are ferns

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

fern

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Fern

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

And now another Loar (with triple binding)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

88144, Fern..Although a poor photo, you can see the flat spot irregular scroll a mile away (note how large the F-holes are on the '28/'29 example) This is one of Dave Appollon's Ferns, note the removed fret, his signature modification for hitting a certain high note

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

My bad on the 16th fret deal..I meant 13th as far as the area of the scroll in question

----------


## GTison

when did the dot at the 3rd fret start on the ferns? I can see it on the Apolon mando but not so much on the others. Also the internal point of the scroll in the binding points down more on the loar. Is this a consistant trait?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Yes on the way the mitre point on the Loar vrs the Ferns. The dot at third started around 1927, but this attribute is quite inconsistent until about 1929

----------


## mandoryan

Hey Darryl,

 Very interesting stuff here. Interesting incosistencies in the Ferns and Loars. Is this attributed to template changes or ...? Hey, I asked if you had a picture of Bill Monroes "other" Loar. Do you still have that? I am very curious as I never saw him without his one and only. Thanks Darryl. MandoRyan

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I'll scan and post the Other Loar..It is a Feb. '23. I have pic of before and after the Vandal damage

----------


## evanreilly

Bill would keep his Feb. '23 Loar in a cross-tuning and play it on request.
Early on, it stayed in 'Get Up John' tuning, but later it was usually kept in the tuning (C#m??) for 'My Last Days'. It was in very good shape and had not been subject to the attacks of Monroe over time.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The Feb Loar was in very nice condition prior to the damage. If I remember correctly, it sustained worse damage than the July 9...and Charlie had to seriously darken the finish to cover the repairs. I believe that it is "Missing" since Monroe's passing..and Pete Kuykendal ended up with the original case from the estate sale.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Yeah,

It's interesting that the July 9 was the repair of which I was most proud and the Feb. was the one of which I was the most unhappy. I wanted to replace the top (as it was so damaged) and Mr. Bill didn't want that. So, I did my best, given those limitations. Needless to say, I wasn't happy with the result. Wish I could get it back to give it another shot. Oh well..........

Charlie

----------


## mandoryan

Thanks Evan and Charlie,
  I didn't know the Feb. one was so damaged. I was under the impression that it was not as badly "attacked" in the notorious poker vandalism. 
  Charlie, do you know where this Loar is residing? 
  Why did Bill not want to replace the top? I'm sure he wasn't stubborn at all about this.  Do you have any pics of it after the attack? Thanks guys, Ryan

----------


## evanreilly

Here is a pic of the July 9th on the operating table.

----------


## mandoryan

Thanks Evan,
 Do you have an operating pic of the Feb. one? I still can't believe that Charlie put that back together and Bill continued to play it. That just astounds me.

----------


## Fretbear

If you are into "standard" F hole dimensions, check out the difference between the March 31, 1924 (#76493) mandola and the '28/'29 #88144 Fern.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Bill Monroes' 73987. Top photo shortly before the vandalism. Lower photo shortly after repair by Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

After

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Before, close-up

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

A rare picture of the back

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Another back shot

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Me with 72214 (gee, about 20 years ago). This is Monroes other Loar, Feb 26, 1923

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Monroe with 72214

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72214 After vandalism

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

After

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

After

----------


## Scott Tichenor

Wow

----------


## Kevin K

What a history lesson.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71628, December 20, 1922
Pee Wee Lambert, late '40's?
Note Late 20's Fern Pattern
and Hardware

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71628 While owned by Harry West
circa 1964, Note other Loars,
including mint Fern 76549 & 
May 29, 23 Loar 73490. At this point the
Lambert Loar had a poorly repaired
headstock break and had been refinished blonde

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71628 circa mid 60's, broken headstock, fingerboard
off

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71628 in it's current state. New
neck, top refinished.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Back, appears to be original shading

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71628, not the best effort on the peghead

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71062 November 28, 1922
The lightest finish color
I have seen. Single bound
peghead & fingerboard,
square miter on f/b binding

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71062, very odd quilt maple

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71062, note square miter to binding
and a tailpiece "death crack"

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71062, odd figure for a Loar, three piece neck

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Bobby Osborne's 80190 Dec. 1, 1924 Loar.
I think this was the last day of employment for
the worker that applied the finish to this one.
No offense Bobby.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

80190, for years this was the last signed Loar mando listed. A couple more.. slightly later have turned up

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

80190

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

80190

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

80782, one of the first post Loar mandos
No signature, note very nice finish

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

80782

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

80782

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

80782, note return to the '22, early '23
style peghead overlay and logo position.
Apparently an effort to use them up
prior to exclusive use of the fern.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Me with the Lloyd Loar A5 (74003) at Tut Taylor's
Photo circa 1964 or 65

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76787, March 31, 1924
The one and only Red Loar..and it's a Fern Loar

----------


## mandoryan

Wow,
 I logged on this morning and found all these pics. Thanks a bunch Darryl. Those are awesome pictures of Monroe and his "other" Loar and the back of his July Loar. I've never before seen the back of it. Thanks again. Very cool having you guys here on the cafe to share these. Mandoryan

----------


## Charlie Derrington

72214's picture doesn't look near as badly as I remembered. Goes to show you how one's memory isn't quite as accurate as a photograph. Maybe I was remembering how much I didn't like the tone of it after the repair. (It's also interesting that I didn't like the tone of that one before the damage, either.)

I did some work on the "Red Loar" and have got to say that is one of the most beautiful things I've ever laid eyes on. The rumor is that the original owner had just gotten an F-4 prior to the F-5 model coming out and wanted it to match his 4. Heard any of this, Darryl ?

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

That's exactly the story. Eugene Claycomb was the original owner...The F4 and F5 in the photo were owned by him. Henry Garris acquired them both..along with catalogs and such from Mr. Claycomb (or his widow). There is an original bill of sale (dated 1926) where Mr. Claycomb took possession of the new instrument. The date is a bit odd, but maybe Gibson had alot of stock at the time. Henry spent a night at my place on the way to Nashville, where you may have seen it at one of the first shows (maybe 1989ish). He sold the mandolin thru Mando Bros around 1995 and passed away a few years later. I have his original Catalog N, to remember a real "character by". RIP Henry

I have some much better photos somewhere

----------


## mort

71628 has the dot at the 3rd in the Pee Wee picture. but was not ptu back on with the restoration. Why? or why not?

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Yeah, I worked on it in '96 after the new owner purchased it from Stan. While in my possession for the repair, we (The Nashville Mandoln Ensemble) used it as the cover for our Columbia Christmas album, "Gifts". It made the perfect backdrop as it's color went well with the holiday theme. Again, what a unique and beautiful piece.

Charlie

----------


## Scotti Adams

..I was noticing on the pics of Muns july Loar that the "after" pics show the bridge had been replaced and that it sat considerably more forward toward the nut..why was the bridge replaced? was it damaged too?....Charlie..what was the intonation like on that mando?...also if you look close at the before pics of the same mando there seems to be some writing between the bridge and the tailpiece...whats up with that?....BTW...great pics Darryl...astonishing...Ive always thought that Bobbys Loar was the best sounding one Ive ever heard...

----------


## ethanopia

I officialyy moinate this for the "coolest mando thread in cafe history" award...anyone care to second?

----------


## Scotti Adams

..uh..I would second that....great stuff

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Scotti....

I changed the bridge at Mr. Bill's request. I believe he changed it back later.

The bridge position didn't change. I believe you are looking at an optical illusion because of camera angle. The intonation was very good (as long as he kept his strings changed, which he didn't always do). I'm sure about this as the wear around the bridge left an exact spot for the bridge to set and the new bridge was extremely difficult to fit because of all of the wear around that area.

The writing is his signature in the top wood. Look closely and you can see "Bill Monroe".

Charlie

----------


## Scotti Adams

..thanks alot Charlie...I really appreciate your input here....along with Big Joe...you guys are great!!...If your ever looking to hire some more help there at Gibson I would love to test drive those new puppies....lol

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Mort, I can't answer your question. The dot at the third is a post Loar feature..but that mando was odd from the get go. Dot a t5th is correct for 1922, but not the way that mando was originally

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Charlie: #Regarding the red Loar..It is my opinion that the mandolin was "redone". #Not to say that it went back to the factory, just that it was brown first, then redone red to fill the special order. #I saw very small signs of this in the spruce on the top and inside of the mando. #This opinion really torqued off Stan @ Mando Bros while they were selling it. #In no way does it qualify as refinished, nor did I ever use that word...just like any normal Loar that got messed up while finishing and they had to start over would (not) qualify as refinished.
This seems to account for the 1926 delivery and 1924 signature..they took and in stock F5 an filled the order??
What do you think?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Fern F5 No. 86104. #This mandolin will be auctioned at Skinner on Oct. 19

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

86104

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

86104..a really stunning mandolin..quite rare peghead configuration

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74000 July 9, 1923
Triple bound on sides
Identical to Monroe's Loar

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74000

----------


## Scotti Adams

..and a special great big THANK YOU to Darryl also...

----------


## bootinz

Here's 75310. Feb 18 1924.

----------


## bootinz

Here are 3 more.

----------


## bootinz

And here are the backs.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Got any numbers for the other two

----------


## bootinz

And here are the backs.

----------


## bootinz

One of them is John Reischman's. The other belongs to friend of mine who purchased it in England. It's a '23 but I don't know the #.

----------


## bootinz

John's Feb 18 '24 is on the right, mine is in the middle and the '23 is on the left.

----------


## bootinz

Sorry! John's is on the left and the '23 is on the right.:D

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I knew that 

John R's is 75327 Feb 18, 1924

The '23 looks like a July 9..Thanks for the post

10,000 views reached on this thread during last evening. Thanks for interest all

Darryl Wolfe

----------


## f5loar

That 86104 '28 Fern up at Skinner is the most offset fern pattern I've ever seen. They really missed getting that one lined up. Otherwise a true representation of a prewar
post Loar F-5 Fern. That one should top $55K.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76778, March 31, 1924. This is the Loar that Skaggs owned during the New South and Boone Creek days
Refin by Paganoni (perfect), truss rod showing on back of neck

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76778

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here are some nice shots of a July 9, '23 Loar
This one has the original serial number defaced with 
"F41515"

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

F41515, all pics courtesy of Elderly

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

A correct hand engraved Loar tailpiece cover

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Nothing needs to be said here

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The other label (pic highly tweeked to bring out the number)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The other label (original pic)

----------


## jmpullen

Re: Scotti Adams inquiry of writing between bridge and tailpiece, on Monroe's # 73987 -
 I was told it was B M + b M -- Bill Monroe #+ Bess Mauldin. Isn't this right, those who know for sure ?

----------


## Scotti Adams

..Hi Jim...Charlie D. informed me that it said "Bill Monroe"....I didnt quite get that from what I could see in the pic...in looks more like initials as you suggested...

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I think Jim is correct..or shall I say he is correct

----------


## Scotti Adams

..yep..its alot clearer in that pic...thanks alot Darryl...I wonder why Charlie said it said "Bill Monroe"...I know..so many mandolins...so little time...huh Charlie?..

----------


## delsbrother

Awwww.... That's cute!

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Yup and yup.

----------


## Scotti Adams

Hey Darryl and Charlie..look at the tuner placement on this Loar...arent they more far apart than "normal"?...or is this just another inconsistancy in the Loar Mando product? its seems awfully wide across the top from the D tuner to the A tuner...not quite angled in as it should be ....

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

That's the way the early ones were with the exception of the first one. June 22. #Refer to earlier pictures in this thread for some discussion on it. #Essentially the standard Loar placement was new and they didn't have tuners yet that could be installed that way. #Then they found out that the inlay positioning didn't work with the new tuners and changed that

----------


## Scotti Adams

,,thanks Darryl...you da man

----------


## evanreilly

How common was the use of this style tailpiece on the '5' models?
Were there a lot of Loars with only double-bound (white-black) binding on the fingerboards?? Anyone post a picture of April '23 f'board binding??

----------


## Spruce

Re: #73987, the "B M + b M" Loar...

Sure looks another mis-matched top, no?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

How right you are Spruce..you 'da eagle eye

Evan, I have always assumed that covers like that are replacements for the original hand engraved ones. #I've never seen one of those silver plated. #The double bound fingerboards are common to the earlier (pre June '23) Loars..some actually have a layer of ebony under the fingerboard and binding. #A few of the '24's (the ones with snow white f/b binding) and some of the post Loar ferns also have double bound fingerboards. #I'll post some pics

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

PS Evan..that tailpiece cover was made well before the Loar period...or way after ..as covers from about 1918 to 1928 were all nickle-silver...not chrome/nickle plated brass. The tailpiece base was plated brass

(sorry CD...I don't agree with your assessment of tailpiece materials)

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Don't be sorry.....

This world would be a dull place if we all agreed on everything.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

93723..about 1931. #Obviously not a Loar,
but a nice example of how different the later
mandolins soon became. #Sprayed sunburst,
lacquer finish, block inlay a third fret
modified fern inlay. Note the slightly elongated 
scroll. pinched waist and very slightly wider body.
Not as finely graduated, with higher arch on top and back.
Pickguards in this period disintegrate worse than any others.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

93723..worm on top (non-reverse) tuners
larger bushings, broader binding, appealing but
less graceful broader appearing peghead shape.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

93723..back. #Distinct ridge in back, evidence of high arching 
can be seen in the glare at upper right.
Elongated scroll very noticeable on back.

----------


## kneauxdn

Many Loars!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

H5 Mandola 76492 March 31, 1924

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76492

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

'37/38 F5 94970

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

94970

----------


## evanreilly

I noted that the 'distressed' Master Model Gibson had a tailpiece similar to the one I posted above. That model is supposed to represent a 'generic' 1923 F-5. How many of those tailpieces have you seen on original (i.e. - not factory refinished) Loar-era intruments?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

None...they all have the hand engraved silver plated version
like this

----------


## f5loar

That 93723 Fern is reported to be known as the last prewar Fern F5 made by Gibson if you go by the serial number. A small batch of 5 that year that started in 1934 and shipped in 1936. 
If you go by FON it is the next to the last yet the other
one has "The Gibson" in it. Strange but true. This would
be the start of the removal of "The". No doubt only a few
maybe even one craftsman was left that knew how to build the
F5 under the direction of Loar. The next F5 known to exsist is the Apollon shown above which means the Gibson logo went to the fatter prewar size with a larger flowerpot than a Loar. Amazing the difference in one year. It bears a C-1 FON with a batch number different from "Hoss" which probably means they were down to only one or two F5s per year as the Monroe Bros. were starting to become famous with their hit "What Would You Give....." It is therefore assumed Dave Apollon was to recieve the first one of the new style F5. He is shown in many promotional photos and
record covers holding this F5 and it remained with him longer than other year F5s except the Loar which he kept the longest. I guess old Dave knew which mandolin was the
best back then too! In the words of the great Walter K. Bauer "Those Gibson F5s went to hell, those darn crappy tuners wouldn't last a year before they fell apart. They was mighty heavy too. It wouldn't stay in tune either" It should be noted Bauer a former Gibsonite with Loar was now playing his own signature model Bacon mandolin.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Darryl is right. All F-4 style tailpieces on Loars appear to be replacements. That's one reason I put one on the prototype distressed Master. They all won't have the same hardware as I'm trying to make each one different.

Charlie

----------


## mandoJeremy

I am wondering if the original '37 to '42 period F-5's had the wide neck like the Sam Bush signature model does? Can anyone tell me?

----------


## danb

Yikes, I had a real forehead-slapper of a bug on the mandolin archive search programs.. Many instruments weren't showing up in the results. Here's the Archive's curent incarnation of the F5 journal:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/...s.pl?f5journal

I'm expecting to get to quite a bit more of it this week (instruments that post-date Loar have not yet been entered&#33. You ain't seen nothing yet folks

----------


## Ken Waltham

In regards to the neck width on the '37 to 42 F5's... I owned a 1937 F5 that I found out of the woodwork right here at home. No, it did not have an overly wide neck.
Not as refined as the earlier models, of course, but nothing out of the ordinary.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

And they made electrics too, but not Loars
95358 F5

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

95358

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

EA5248 H5 Mandola

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

EA5248

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

My newly acquired original Loar Master Model brochure
The Holy Grail of "paper stuff"

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

More

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

last one

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Come to think of it..maybe I should have bought a "real hoss" of a Pacific Rim solid wood A-model instead..hmmm

----------


## Jonathan James

Darryl,

Do you know what the Loar on auction at Skinner went for on 10/19? You had predicted over $55K, I believe. Fern F5 No. 86104

----------


## chris

Nice Darryl. I knew I should have bid more. Oh well. Thanx for sharing

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

JJB....I believe it went for about ..$62.5k including fees..something on the order of 53-55k without

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Chris, I'm surprised so many people figured out what it really was (based on the cheesy partial picture he posted) There were 22 bids, with many willing to pay well over $200 for it

----------


## Spruce

Cool paper Darryl...

I notice the Loar labels in your newly aquired brochere look a bit different that the ones in the F5 Journal...

True?

Did they change midstream? Are the ones in the Journal pretty accurate?

Just curious...(g).

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The ones in the Journal are exact..the ones on the brochure are renderings

----------


## chris

Darryl, Give it your best shot

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Tough one...looks like about 897xx to 90xxx, but usually the block at first came later. #Green case is not typical of the period either. #Can't tell whether the tuners are reverse or not which would change everything.

So, it's either a later fern as I indicated, or a Loar that was sent back for peghead repair and fingerboard

----------


## chris

Hmmm

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

1929 to 1933 tuners, reddish thicker finish consistent with the serial numbers I indicated

----------


## chris

873XX

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Not fully consistent with 873xx mandolins, but there are exceptions in every Gibson woodpile..another "well something happened here Gibson instrument"..most have dot inlay...rarely ever do you see the "modified fern/straight The Gibson" before '29 or '32 serial numbers. #Should have Loar specs in the graduations/neck ect with later hardware and finish for this to "exist"

----------


## chris

Notice the Fern is not obstructed.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I saw that...much like the skinner one, but modified fern

----------


## chris

I like it, a pretty rare combo. peghead

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Look at the tuner splay. That part looks really early.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

CD..Agree...but I have seen that on early '30's too though

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Yeah, me too. But they don't have that "early" Loar hit.

This one looks strangely Loarish.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Fully Agree....part of my reason for suspecting..Loar graduations and neck......dgw

----------


## chris

front

----------


## chris

front

----------


## Charlie Derrington

71060 came in today. (First time I've seen it since I brokered it in '87) Real neat early Loar with that cool light tobacco/orange color. Great sounding, also. Has a slab/non-bookmatched back and, what looks to be, a late '24 or later, fingerboard with white/black/white binding.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Chris from your photo, it appears to be an early Loar body, based on the height of the ridge on the scroll. The fingerboard is definately from the mid 60's. The finish is either thirties or '60's, I can't quite tell..but I'm thinking 60's

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Looks 60s to me. Might be a prime candidate for restoration (if it can be purchased for the right price)

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

CD..I can't recall whether I've seen that or not..I believe my info came over the phone..I've got reversed label noted and a RM for the owner

----------


## chris

The yellows in the finish are so vibrant. I think it's the earlier? But The top and back don't have as much yellow in the center of the burst???????????????????

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Chris, the red is the key. Thirties are more brown to yellow. Of course, looking at a picture and making a determination is dubious at best.

Charlie

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Darryl, your info is correct and it originally came from me.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

A mind is a terrible thing..yes I beleive that mando Chris is posting deserves a redo..(if its a '60's finish)

----------


## chris

And who would you suggest?

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Call me.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Maybe this will help you 
decide Chris
OK, OK, it's not a Loar...but it may as well be.
An exceptionally nice brand new Master Model

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Master Model, 2003 - one-piece back

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Master Model - Here we go...revised "Gibson"
..looks better Charlie
OK, which Flowerpot is intellectual property?
not this one I hope..since it's 25% different..Ha Ha 


 #

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Master Model 2003

----------


## chris

But Darryl, I have one of them already. Should be abut 2 numbers away from his.

----------


## chris

Look like twins?

----------


## mrmando

That electric H5 was made for Apollon ... I've never seen the blonde electric F5 (95358) before. Also for Apollon?

----------

Darryl That has to be Jim Pullen's Master in those photo's . I hear it is one of the best ever made..

Chris does your's have a Fern? Show us that headstock! I remember seing it or one of yours up there when it was being french polished

----------


## Scotti Adams

..that would be Jims Master Model..he sent me the same exact pics.....its a fine, fine looking instrument and from what I hear a great sounding thing too...Jim told me hes about to sell out his entire stock of other mandos because he says the MM is "the" one....Jim has a good collection of other fine mandolins.

----------


## chris

Yep, I got the Fern in the peghead. I will have to get a pic.of it.  This thing sounds unbelievable. I also had them put in the new vintage size frets, I just love them.

----------


## jmpullen

THANKS VERY MUCH GUYS, FOR THE COMPLIMENTS ON MY NEW MASTER MODEL. NOT BECAUSE IT'S MINE, BUT IT IS ONE TRULY EXCEPTIONAL EXAMPLE OF AN F-5. AND I'M VERY PROUD TO HAVE IT. DANNY AND CHARLIE DID ME RIGHT ON THIS ONE. THANKS TO THEM AND ALL THE FOLKS AT THE GIBSON PLANT IN NASHVILLE.
P.S. ACCORDING TO THE DISTRESSED MASTER I SAW AT GIBSON, I THINK THE BEST IS YET TO COME OUT OF NASHVILLE. JIM.

----------


## GTison

hello F5journal
does the 03 MM have the flat place in the scroll?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Actually it slightly does...in very similar fashion to the post Loar ferns...hadn't noticed that

----------


## GTison

my 02 fern has that flat spot too.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I noticed it on an 02 Fern too (the first one I ever saw), but hadn't paid attention to the MM's. #The 02 Ferns and a few MM's have another little anomoly on the back where the heel button is...the scroll binding joins at a lower point/place than the "point" binding does. #They seem to have revised that since then

----------


## f5loar

That 873XX Fern looks more 50's finish to me. Too dark
to be a 60's in those photos. Has that right 50's burst too. Fingerboard could be 50's too! 
Another salesman sample? Sent back several times? 
or another Apollon that's been redone many times over the
years. The case may not be original to the mandolin so you can't always go by that. I know ole Dave was bad about swapping cases on his F5s. Is this one suppose to be for sale?

----------


## chris

Darryl, I don't know if I am going to sell it or not. Sure is a nice mando. But then again 79833 Looks nice too

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Chris, I'm f5journl

----------


## chris

I knew that, Had a senior moment. O.K. so maybe It was just too much of the 70s

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73670 The Ronnie Reno "Unsigned Loar"
1923 Serial number, but gold 1925/6 hardware,
1925 lacquer finish, scroll shaped like a 1925

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73670

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73670

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75709 February 18, 1924
My second Loar. This mandolin
has very striking lines, sort of like
Cindy Crawford does

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75709, It's a shame that it has
that mismatched peghead binding
that appeared for a while during
Feb and March of '24

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75709

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Looks like one of the few that they didn't over-file the binding inside the scroll.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Agree Jim, here's the back, kinda peculiar. 
It had more curl than shows here, but at a
large angle. See some other pics on mandolinarchive.com

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75848 March 31, 1924
odd light color w/ridiculously
wild curl

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75848

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76779 March 31, 1924
Fern Loar Owned by Benny Cain
Picture circa 1967
The fingerboard inlay may be original

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

A part of Benny's collection
in 1967. Two Loars, a mint F2,
an Orville 3 point bound in alternating
blocks of ebony? and pearl? and an original D-45.
(the pickguard is "stick-on")

----------


## mandoryan

What's up with that pickguard on the Fern Loar? That's pretty ugly if you ask me. Other than that, it's a beautiful mando. Looks like it is/was in darn close to new condition. Quite a collection!!!! Wish I had something like that. 

Also, Darryl, is 75848 Frank Wakefield's Loar? The color looks like his. I wasn't sure what his serial was on his. Thanks in advance.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The pickguard is something he made. 75848 is in VA, Wakefield's is 72051, Feb 8 '23
dgw

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76549 Fern Loar March 31, 1924
The mint perfect one posted earlier
in thread. Pretty cool pic eh!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72615 March 27, 1923 The Griffith Loar
at Tut Taylor's house in 1965

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72615 in 1968 when Tut loaned it to
me for a year. The mando had an early
'30's finish on the top and neck
and original finish on sides and back

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72615 Original back finish

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72615 during my Knoxville Grass days. #Shortly
after I bought it in 1976. #Randy Wood refinished
the entire mandolin after Norman Blake
spilled coffee on it (color is darker and not so
red as pics indicate)
(my first reproduction pickguard and tailpiece cover)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72615 circa 1976

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72615 in 1923. Pretty decent documentation
one this one don't you think

----------


## mandoryan

Man, I am lusting for that Fern in the mirror. Mirror, mirror on the wall..... I wish, I wish........ :Smile:

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more of 76549 Fern Loar

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

79824 Fern Loar March 31, 1924
This mandolin has an odd serial/date
combination in that the serial number falls
in a batch of instruments well after the
signature date. That batch has only this one 
fern, all the others are flowerpots

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

79824 Note the white binding on body and
fingerboard, but the ivoroid Fern binding typical 
of the March Fern Loars. Also note that the tuners and bushings appear gold on any Loar that has been played
very much. The silver plating simply wears away quickly
revealing the brass

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

79824 Back

----------


## bluesmandolinman

Please explain

Why does the 72615 had to be refinished just because spilling coffee on it ? Is the temperatur of a coffee destroying the finish ? 
Please forgive me if this is a stupid question.
Thanks,René

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I wasn't present when it happened, but that's my take on it. I do know that you can heat lacquer to remove it. (but you're really scr_wed if you catch it on fire..which it will do spontaneously)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73481 May 29, 1923 David McLaughlin, Johnson Mt Boys

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73481

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73481

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73481

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73481

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73481

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73481

----------


## mandoryan

Man that 73481 is a purty one too. Has it been refinished or is it just in really, really good shape?

----------


## danb

Here's the Mandolinarchive record for #73481

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

It appears that he has cleaned the binding and had it french polished since I saw it last. These are brand new pics of it

----------


## Geno

Darryl, Have you ever considered putting out a coffee table style book featuring the best of these photographs on high quality paper, perhaps even expanding it to include some other fine mandolins. #Do you think there is enough of a market for such a project? I know I would love getting one in my Christmas stocking next year!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Yes, I've considered it. I plan on upgrading the journal somewhat to include more of this.....and at least a few custom hardbound copies will be done. Maybe some day I can turn it over to someone to do it right

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> It appears that he has cleaned the binding and had it french polished since I saw it last. #These are brand new pics of it


Regarding the finish of 73481...David played the mandolin for many years with The Johnson Mt Boys. #Although the mando was not abused, the finish went downhill significantly from the near mint status that it had. #Perspiration..general handling and such soften and dull Loar finishes and make them even more susceptable to wear. #The last time I saw the mando the finish had gotton somewhat soft and gummy with some wear spots. #It appears to me from these new pics that he has had it french polished and touched up a bit. #I have done this to my Loar several times over the years.[/QUOTE]

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Darryl, Thanks for posting the shots of my old F-5 on the cafe. In the F5Journal you may want to remove the line about the finish being soft. What I discovered about that softness is that the mandolin had some kind of extremely thin film on it, like a wax or something. It was not an overspray or French polish. It must have been some kind of old wax or polish. I could scrape it off with my fingernails, especially when the weather was damp. The finish would turn cloudy when the air was damp. For years I left it alone because I thought it must be a part of the original finish and I did not want to mess with the mandolin, but several years ago I got brave and wiped the mandolin down with a damp rag. The thin film of yellow goo came right off down to shiny hard finish. This original finish coat is still very glossy since it was protected all those years. The binding and pearl still have the original varnish coat. It is amazing how the mandolin has survived so well all the years of endless miles. I went to great efforts to protect it out on the road and when flying. Now, since my Paganoni is such a great mandolin, I am much more selective about how I use and where I take the Loar. Most of the time it stays with other Loar papers and memorabilia, locked in a climate controlled environment under constant video surveillance in a building with quite an advanced security system. The mandolin still has its very loud, dark, juicy tone, very different from any other Loar I've played. I have played over fifty Loars and have never heard one quite as dark-chocolate as mine. I play it a little bit every day. It is all original except for the first eleven frets. The case is original. I keep the original handle off of the case.
 # #My most recent recording projects with Loar #73481 are on Cracker Barrel's Heritage Music Collection. The first is The Stony Point Quartet's "Band of Angels". The second is Linda Lay's "Linda's Mercantile Store. The third is "Springfield Exit" which I produced and engineered, and the forth and most recent release is The Stony Point Quartet's "Christmas Time Back Home", which I co-produced and engineered. On the last two CDs, Loar #73481 is left totally natural, i.e.. no EQ or compression. I have never recorded with the Pag, but I plan to soon.
 # #Thanks,
David

----------


## David W McLaughlin

The original hard varnish has not been covered or french polished..at least since I have owned it. The gloss of the finish is original. The amount of significant wear is very evident up close in person, but the photos do not show its imperfections, the wear and all of the little dings. The finish is very thin in areas on the back from years of being placed against my suit jacket, plus there is arm wear on the front above the tailpiece, and a little bit of strap wear on the ridge of the scroll. One thing that there is not any of...pick marks! The finish is almost completely worn off the back of the neck. I'll take some more extreme closeups soon to show the wear and imperfections.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Thank you David. #I believe that explains things quite well. #I think it's been a good 10-12 years since I have seen the mandolin. #It certainly look good now. #I planned on removing that journal comment after seing these pics. #I believe it is reasonable to say that the mando is a bit lighter in color than the pics indicate. #Here's a pic from 1982 with yours out front comparing how amazingly similar they (my 73992) look

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

and another shot from some festival we played togther

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Over the years that I took 73481 out on the road, the finish got darker, duller, and softer. I also started seeing small areas where the soft stuff had worn through to a very shiny finish. That is why I figured I should go on and remove that coating. I did this in about 1999. I'm certain it was the right thing to do. I also have photos of the mandolin that I took right before I removed the soft goo. I will dig those up soon for you. I believe that being out in the sunlight and weather darkened the soft coating over time. In 1982, 73481 had not been out in the light and weather very much so the soft coating had not darkened. When I removed the goo, the mandolin looked more like it did in the early eighties, but with a little more wear. The mandolin is still in structurally perfect shape, and has never had any repairs other than the time the fingerboard popped clean off. I glued it back on myself. It has always held up perfectly and never had any problems.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Speaking of May 29, 1923 Loars,
Here is 73490 with it's
previous long time owner Harry West.
This was Harry's favorite. #I believe
it has a new owner and the peghead
has been repaired

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73490

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73490

----------


## handpicked

Is that a chiquita banana sticker on the tailpiece cover of 73490?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here is John Paganoni in his shop
with July 9, 1923, 73719
The mandolin was owned by
Albert Bellson and appears
in many catalog photos. This 
is the first July 9 mando I have listed
and is the first one to have the open
pattern "The Gibson". This mandolin also
marks the general change from fiddle flamed
quarter sawn backs to slab cut irregular curl.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

chiquita?? yes, one of Harry's trademarks

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Now here's one to "pine" for
John's 73719, along side of his
84270 Fern that was previously
owned by Jimmy Gaudreau. Yes that's
one of Paganoni's famous cases

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The one and only Doyle Lawson
with Paganoni's 73719. Doyle played
Johns mando for many years

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73719

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73719

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73719

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73676 June 13, 1923
The William Place Jr. mandolin
that is pictured in almost
every catalog. Original
gold hardware

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73676

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75690 Feb. 18, 1924
Mike Marshalls mandolin
Virzi removed, top regraduated,
new tone bars, new fingerboard.
Approximate first appearance of
black stain on a Loar. #Generally
speaking, Loars were very dark from
this point on.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75690

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Gene Johnson with his 75305,
Feb. 18, 1924 during the J.D. Crowe era.
That's Keith Whitley next to him w/ the Herringbone
that Lester gave him. I think I took this pic in Knoxville around 1978

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Gene a bit later in Georgia
w/ 75305. He occasionally will
play the Loar at his Diamond Rio gigs

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75305
Bone or ivory saddle and unique armrest

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Charlie Derrington and his
74660 Dec. 11, '23 loar.
I believe this was his
first Loar and he was very proud of it

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74660. Although you can't see it in this pic,
Loars around this period have a slight greenish
hue to them because of the slight touch of black on top of the yellow

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74660

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74660

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74659 Dec. 11, 1923
The picture of the back captures the
green hue mentioned on Charlie's

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74659

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Charlie D. and his 81250 "unsigned" Loar

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

81250..pretty cool wine color in it

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

81250

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

81250

----------


## Scotti Adams

..Hey Darryl..wheres that Flatt Bone of Whitleys at now?....Ive heard different stories....

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Scottie..I have no clue..what do you know..under Lorrie's bed?

----------


## levin4now

I could say this for every one I've seen on this thread, but 81250 is beautiful.

----------


## Scotti Adams

..I heard it was recently stolen out of Sandy Hook,,,I cant varify that....Also..Keith gave Lester $1500 for that ol Bone

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here are some better pics of the Loar 10-string mando-viola #70321

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

70321

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

70321

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

70321

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The real Sam Bush Model #95155

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

95155

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

95155

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

95155

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The original Dawg mandolin
'25 Fern #81408. Photo
circa late '70's

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

81408

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

81408

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

81408

----------


## f5loar

I believe these photos are of the "2nd version" Dawg Fern.
The original version would have had the block at third
fingerboard. Isn't the dot one the famous Apollon fingerboard he replaced the blocked one with or was the blocked one the Apollon? I forget which one but the earliest photos back during the Muleskinner days in '73 is
the block inlay.

----------


## Fretbear

Darryl, how do you account for the large difference (385) between two Loars dated the same day, such as Marshall's 75690 and Gene Johnson's 75305? I realize that they could have wound up on the signing table the same day, without sharing much else in common, but with only about 150 surviving examples, it still seems like a lot. How many Loars were thought to have been signed in total? Thanks for making all your work and amazing pictures available on the Cafe.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

81408 is supposedly the original Appollon fern of Grismans. #The fingerboard has been replaced several times. #When I took these pics, he said it used to have blocks. #The one on it in the photo came from Appollon as a spare. (besides that, I'm really referring to it being the one present during the invention of his Dawg music in the mid/late seventies...i.e the Kaliedoscope Quintet album w/Rice, Angor, Marshall)

Fretbear. #There were two large distinct batches of Loars that got signed on Feb 18, 1924. #The first batch went from about 75305 to 75329 with only the last two or three having Virzis. #The next batch went from 7567x to 75709 or further and invariably had a Virzi. #This for all practical purposes was the real production run of Loars for the general public. The first batch is very consistent, usually sound great and have a lighter finish. #The second batch is darker in color and somewhat inconsistent in trim and they usually beg to have the Virzi removed. (Note the work done to Marshalls second batch mando and No work done to Rieschman or Gene J's. first batch mandos ...and I have removed three Virzis from second batch ones) Most of the mandos prior to these have some artists name associated with them..such as Griffith, Place Appolon ect.

----------


## AlanN

Just to be nit-pickey, Darryl. Marshall was not in the original Quintet: David, Todd Phillips, Rice, Anger, bass either Joe Carrol or Bill Amatneek (on the F-5 record).

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

You are so right...I knew something wasn't exactly right there...It was Todd Phillips I was forgetting..and I think it was Amatneek

A mind is a terible thing

I think when I saw them first, Marshall was with them (when those pics were all taken)

----------


## Chris Baird

F5journl,
 I'm sure you've already heard this a thousand times but I just want to thank you for this thread and for your work in general. You do a great service to the mandolin community. These pics are priceless for someone who sees a loar once in a blue moon.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks Chris. by the way the "maps" are correct/very close according to what I have

----------


## Don Grieser

How does that 10 string sound? Nobody seems to be able to make the 10 strings really sound great across all the strings. Did Lloyd solve that problem on this one?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The strings were loose when I saw it and I didn't know exactly how to tune it. I just tuned it up until it felt and responded correctly. It had two courses of unwound and three of wound strings..so the most treble string never made it to E. Tuned that way (several steps under a mandolin) it sounded fully Loaresque to me..with rich tone and even responsiveness. Im sure it would have sounded better after settling in for a day or two.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here are some new pics of 86104, The Skinner Fern from a few months ago

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

last

----------


## mandoJeremy

Now that is mint condition. It looks like a brand new Gibson fern. I am in awe!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I know that my buddy that owns it will like to hear that...but by the same token..I told him that it was the most stunning/captivating mando that I have seen in years

----------


## ethanopia

incredible condition. It looked good in the catalog but not that good!
WOWzers! I'm sure it sounds good too...

----------


## mandoJeremy

I still can't get over that thing! Everytime I look I .....well, I get excited. How is the sound Darryl? I am sure it has not even come close to opening if it is in that kind of condition. I played a certain Loar with Fern in Asheville that I am sure you know who owns and it is not overly impressive because it stays in the case never getting played with no tension. He told me that Sam had made him an offer on it a few years back and he turned it down. I wish it would be in someone's hands like Sam's that would actually play it and enjoy it. Oh well, if I had all the money I needed I guess I would just buy Loars to look at!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I haven't played the Skinner fern, but he says it sound real good. The Fern Loar in Asheville doesn't get played..and then again He's not really a mando player. The Virzi hampers that particular mando some, and it's been heavily french polished. It sounds fine, but basically very typical of the '24 Virzi mandos

----------


## evanreilly

Here is a picture of Bill Monroe playing Dave Apollon's 1923 F-5. This was at the Thomas Point BLuegrass festival in Maine, probably 1993.

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## Darryl Wolfe

The silver plated, hand engraved
tailpiece cover as found only
on Style 5 instruments

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## AlanN

Gorgeous, and a great photo

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## Darryl Wolfe

We're gonna start some parts, pieces pics so that www.mandolinarchive.com can have a reference base on
more than just the mandos themselves. Virzi pics,
labels ect ect..various pickguards, tuners...
pics of mandolins when taken apart..

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## AlanN

hmmm...rings close to home...

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## Darryl Wolfe

The nickel/silver stamped version
found on all other mandolins.
Many Lloyd Loar Style 5 instruments
have this tailpiece cover either thru
factory error, or loss/replacement.
I suspect that the hand engraved
version became unavailable from the
factory after a few years

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

One of the first ads to appear
heralding the New F5..
Crescendo, 1923

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## AlanN

I got a color repro of that from Tommy a few years ago. It's framed on a wall, looks great.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The distinctive, hard to forge/reproduce
handwriting of Lloyd Loar

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

But sometimes his fountain pen
didn't work so well

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The distinctive silver plated tuners
found only on Loars

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

..and their penchant for loosing the
silver plating and getting quite
"cruddy looking"

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The Master Model label
used on Style 5 instruments
until about 1926 or 27

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The Loar signature label
used on Style 5 instruments
from 1922 until late 1924

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The Guarantee label. Used on everthing except the Style 5
and then used on the Style 5 instruments starting about 1927

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The infamous Virzi Tone Producer.
This one is no longer "producing tone"
Generally used only in 1924.
Note how the darned thing couldn't really vibrate
if it had to.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The Virzi label
located just outside the Loar 
signature label on the treble bout

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

An original Gibson coupon.
These were used like car payment coupons to
pay Gibson dealers for the instrument

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Gibson pickguards and bridges all had
a "patent stamp" on them until around 1930.
These are my "exactly right" case hardened
stamps that I use on my repro parts.
The large one is for the bridge, medium for
pickguards. The small one is my "F5 Journal" stamp
so that I don't accidentally buy one
back as an original....brag brag

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## Charlie Derrington

It's interesting to note that some of the later Loars (and most of the unsigned, early '25 batch) had the medium stamp on the bridge base as well.

Charlie

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## Darryl Wolfe

You got me  
I didn't know that.
What do you think of this Charlie

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Looks great !!

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## Jason West

Darryl,

I had the chance to play 73490 (Harry West's old Loar) in August. It still had the broken/bound peghead. The new owner graciously let me spend some time with it. It was my first Loar experience...I took me a few minutes to acclimitize to it, but then...An exceptional instrument...now I get the whole Loar thing...I'm ruined for life...

Jason West

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## BobLeeSwagger

> I took me a few minutes to acclimitize to it, but then...An exceptional instrument...


Hi Jason,

What exactly did you have to do to get comfortable with the instrument? Is it just a playability issue coming from 70+ year old instrument?

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## AlanN

dgw,

Did all original Loar tailpiece covers have that etched squiggle around the perimeter?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

To my knowlege yes. I've never seen one without it..but have seen plenty of F4 types on them

----------


## mandoryan

Did you make that tailpiece Darryl? Looks great! Very classy.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Let's say I'm the project manager on the tailpiece

----------


## mandoryan

Very cool Darryl. You da man when it comes to repro Loar accessories.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Virzi label as installed under the treble f-hole

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The very typical point crack found on most Loars. #This is what Charlie D mentioned that they duplicate on the "Distressed Loar". #Also note the white/black/ivoroid binding found on later '24 models

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Both labels...I never said that the Loar signature couldn't be duplicated, but it does take a good fountain pen

----------


## chris

Darryl, Of the virzis you have removed, Have you found that the feet of the virzis were cut different? As to allow for different tone bar or side to side virzi placement? Chris

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Not really, just a little notch at the end of the feet so that the feet can rest against the side of the tone bars. That part usually comes out clean, but the feet usually leave a bit of wood on the top just inside the tone bars on both sides. There is also a little pin into the third foot that was used to locate it and it usually ends up staying in the top.
DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU ARE FAINT OF HEART

I remove the Virzi with a standard black coat hanger. You put a tight radius 180 degree bend one the end with about a 1/2" inch leg and 1/8" gap. You file the inside radius of the gap as sharp as possible. The rest is fairly obvious..going in the end pin hole..you hook it around the disc and split the grain in about 3 or 4 places. The old spruce splits very easy and usually detaches from the legs....fish these out the f-hole. The legs come off by the same method and usually come out in one piece. A bent screw driver is some times need to push the leg back after you pull on it...like rocking it until it detaches from the little pin. Most will glue back together almost invisibly..such as the one in the picture

----------


## chris

Can you describe the results as far as Tone and volume. and how did they compare to non virzi Loars? # #Chris

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Same result with all three that I have done. Much more volume, more focused sound..not a lot of tonal change..and an easier feel to the strings.

One of them really sounded sick before the surgery. It had a queer hollow humming overtone inside, like the sound was there but couldn't get out (almost like the Virzi was loose and humming) It sounded fine afterwards

No difference noticed between ones that never had a Virzi

----------


## Spruce

"I never said that the Loar signature couldn't be duplicated, but it does take a good fountain pen "

And a '20's caligraphic attitude...(g).

Are the labels in the F5 Journal life-size?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> "I never said that the Loar signature couldn't be duplicated, but it does take a good fountain pen "
> 
> And a '20's caligraphic attitude...(g).
> 
> Are the labels in the F5 Journal life-size?


They're a bit small, the orig's are 3-3/8" long measured at the ends of the ellipse line

----------


## chris

One of them really sounded sick before the surgery. It had a queer hollow humming overtone inside, like the sound was there but couldn't get out (almost like the Virzi was loose and humming) It sounded fine afterwards

 Dr.Darryl I can't stop laughing on that one  Kinda like this guy nothing comming out

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## Darryl Wolfe

I think it was 79836 Dec 1, 24. The mando was slightly thinner than normal as if the Virzi had been retrofitted at the factory. And seriously the sound acted like it was bouncing around inside and not finding the f-holes...staying in the mando too long and just humming.. Almost exactly like you had taped up the f-holes

----------


## chris

I notice on some of the point protectors I have seen, They are cut out of square on both ends. So when they put the binding on, They would have to notch the binding on one side. Have you seen this Darryl.
  Chris

----------


## chris

point The other side of the point the binding meets the protector perfect.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Yep, that's the way they were done...makes it real easy to bust the binding if you hit the point protector on something

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Chris,
could that be this mandolin..I need some better pics
76792 Sept. 22, 1924 Fern Loar

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## Darryl Wolfe

76792

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76792

----------


## chris

Yup, I sent you a few, to the journal adress. Check to see if you got them.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I'm doing that now..actually I haven't checked it in several weeks because of virus' It's on December 4 with 700 new messages..only two more weeks worth to go

----------


## chris

What were all the Loar Nuts made of?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

pearl

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76792

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76792

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76792

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

20,000 views

----------


## danb

Here's another cool picture of Bill Monroe's Mandolin- Frank Ray sent this one over to me a few days ago. Frank tells me this picture was taken in 1972, obviously pre-vandalism. Note also that this one shows where Bill scratched "Gibson" off the peghead, originally as a protest against Gibson as part of a long-since-resolved dispute.

The rest of the images we have at the mandolin archive are here



(oops, boneheaded me.. sorry about the password prompt on this image before)

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## danb

I always love it when Frank Ford posts a new picture series at the frets.com museum page

Here's a great new record from the Mandolin Archive from Frank:

Take note of the *original* Cremona brown back & sides on this '22 *F4*! Frank proposes that this mandolin (and 2 others like it) were the original "tests" to show the F5 finish color to management.

This mandolin also has the aluminum-saddle adjustible bridge, another of the early prototype-production designs that gave way to the later wooden saddle adjustible bridges found on the F5, and also the F models & snakehead A's of this period

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## Spruce

Dan...
You wouldn't happen to have a close-up of Mr. Bill's peghead with the broken scroll and scratched out "Gibson" would you?

Love to see it if "yes"...

Thanks!

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## AlanN

The tailpiece cover on Monroe's mandolin looks like a replacement in this photo. Anyone know?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yep..to my knowlege it never had the right one....it had an F4 style for years up until some of the Gibson work where they put an F5L one on

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## evanreilly

Here is a pic showing "The " &lt;G&gt;

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## f5loar

Evan, that sure is a classic Monroevin pose. His hair is
really flowing in the back and this was before his sideburns got out of control. Must be mid 70's.
 Maybe we should start a new thread with our best "Monroe" photos. I can never seem to tire of looking at new photos of the "Father".

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## Spruce

Here are some really cool ones...

And here...

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## evanreilly

Mandojeremy:
you posted the wrong picture!!!
the big-headed F-5 was Roland White's '60s job.
this is the one you refer to:Roland's F-5

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## danb

Images recently added to the mandolin archive from Frank Ford, presenting #72052, Feb 8 1923 Loar Signed F5. Many more stunning pictures at the mandolin if you click the link!

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## f5loar

This may be the most incrediable set of Loar photos on
the net today. Good clear clean high quality photos with
true color reproduction. You can almost touch the 100 grand in those photos.

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## evanreilly

Just looking at the matte varnish finish in the pictures is a joy in of itself. It looks mint new!! Tuners are a little aged, but it sure is a specimen.

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## Charlie Derrington

What shows up as a matte varnish in a picture, is in all probability the miniature crazing that older Loar varnish presents. Mint examples are shiny and one can even see French pad and varnish brush marks. And, you are so right, Evan...it is such a joy.

Charlie

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## UncleNorm

Dan....the pics of the Cremona coloured F-4 from Frank Ford's site are beautiful. Thanks for the heads up. The year shown for the mando, 1922, I believe should be 1921. I have one of these Cremona jobs and I date mine to later 1921. Mine is numbered about 700 later than Frank's. Cheers.

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## danb

Norman, I'm very interested in the details of your cremona instrument- if you could private message me some images or the serial & stamp number I'd be much obliged. Frank has seen 3 cremonas all within just a few serials of each other, so yours would be from a different batch. The current theory is that the batch of 10 (estimate) were the "prototypes" for the cremona finish, your instrument would harpoon that idea so I'm quite interested in it!

About the serial number to years correlation, you're right, probably. It's very tricky with any but the dated Loars to be exactly sure on the year, I use a chart that was on Gibson's site for a while but the serial to year correlations are pretty approximate. I'd love to improve that formula for the mandolin archive, though we haven't all been able to agree on a good way to do that! Any individual instruments with documentation or provenance that can do a good job matching a serial to a year would be most welcome for our collections.

Another factor is that the serial numbers often really only show when an instrument was started. The pencilled-in serial is on the back below the label, so that's probaby when the back was at a point that it was worth numbering. The stamp numbers are quite possibly a better way to tell the year an instrument was started.. but again there's a lot of guesswork taking place here!

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## Darryl Wolfe

I've had several folks ask for pictures of the "double bound" peghead and fingerboards on earlier Loars. These pictures from Frank Ford depict it very well. Sometimes the black is binding and sometimes it is an ebony/dyed wood underlayment to the peghead and fingerboard



double bound

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## mandoJeremy

Sorry Evan, I did post the wrong one! I deleted it though.

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## Darryl Wolfe

OK Guys, #The F5 Journal now has the repro Loar tailpiece covers pretty darn right (They will be available only to valid Loar or Master Model owners)

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## Darryl Wolfe

Another shot

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## Darryl Wolfe

And we won't be using the above covers on the mandos I have under construction (nice fingerprints)

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## chris

Ok Darryl, Are you going to mark them so we can tell the difference from the real thing?

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## Darryl Wolfe

They're stamped f5journal on the back (I suspect these will soon appear on the Distressed Master Models)

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## chris

Here is a nice find.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I've got something similar that has a goofy picture of him on the front..it's for banjo too

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's some interesting stuff..a great American 
concept..you pay more if you don't have all the money in hand

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## David W McLaughlin

Whoever applied the dark stain left his fingerprint on the side of the peghead of 73481. It is on the wood under the varnish.

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## David W McLaughlin

Here's another shot of 73481...

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## David W McLaughlin

This shows how I've worn the varnish off of the heal. I've tried my best to not let this happen. These days I am not playing it with sweaty palms.

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## David W McLaughlin

Another interesting angle...

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## David W McLaughlin

See how the bone is dovetailed...

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## Darryl Wolfe

Great pics David..keep em comin..we'll put them on mandolinacrchive.com too

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## Darryl Wolfe

This shows the double bound fingerboard and peghead well..for those of you that have asked about it

----------


## David W McLaughlin

73481

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## Jim Hilburn

I never realized that was how they did the scroll point joint. First time I've noticed that seam. Doesn't look like a thin coat of varnish ,either.

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## David W McLaughlin

There actually is a coat of varnish on all the binding, except in places where I've worn it off. It just has not yellowed much because this mandolin has almost never been in direct sunlight, but a varnish coat is indeed there on the binding.

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## Scotti Adams

David..I was one of the lucky few that got to play your mando. It was back in the late 80's I believe. It was Frontier Ranch in Ohio..you played my 1980 Gilchrist that I believe you were very smitten with and I played your Loar. We swapped a few licks. If memory serves me right you were wanting to buy that old Gil. I was wondering if you remember this. It wasnt long after that that I met Mike Compton when he started to play with Hartford. Me and Mike played a few together when John walked up and listened. He wanted me to put a price on that Gil. I told him it wasnt for sale..but he kept insisting....after I finally convinced him that I didnt want to sell it. He finally backed down....

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## David W McLaughlin

Yes. That's a good one. I probably couldn't afford it now!

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## danb

Thanks for those great pictures David, added them to the Mandolin Archive record for #73481

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## Scotti Adams

> Yes. That's a good one. I probably couldn't afford it now!


..well..you probably could have afforded it a couple of years ago when I had to sell it to pay for my ex wifes divorce...$6500.00....I literally got sick on th way home from the transaction...

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## Darryl Wolfe

> I never realized that was how they did the scroll point joint. First time I've noticed that seam. Doesn't look like a thin coat of varnish ,either.


Jim..I think you will find that the line you are seeing is the way it was filed..not the binding seam. They let the button stay as flat as possible and the abruptly file down for the downhill slide

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## David W McLaughlin

You are right, Darryl. There is a little "cliff" filled into the binding.

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Here is a closeup of the scroll binding point...

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Peghead binding detail...

----------


## David W McLaughlin

And another peghead binding detail...

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## Jim Hilburn

What I saw in the first shot is re-enforced with the new one. Instead of making a curved miter, concave on one piece and convex on the other, as I've always done ,they cut down to the blk./whi. and left a "leader" that intersected the other b/w ,and semi butt-joined the .060" whites. Either they cut out too much and tried to gob-fill it ,or that repair has been done later.
 Darryl ,they had never done 3-ply binding in the scrolls till the Loars, isn't that correct? This is on e of the first times it had been tried.

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Maybe they did the .020" blk./whi. first ,like Lynn does.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

That miter picture could be misleading. (I almost believe that's dirt or crud, but might certainly be a bad miter job).

Most have a clean, crisp joint...right in the center.

Charlie

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Well, it certainly has not had a later repair, but there is a lot of crud. Here's another closeup of that detail...

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Here's the back of the scroll...

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## Jim Hilburn

I've never given it a lot of thought ,but I assume pre-laminated binding like we get from Stew-Mac didn't exist back then ,and that they probably did bind in two stages. I've also noticed some separations between the .060" ivoroid and the black line in some of the earlier photo's in this thread, and that would be another clue.
 All I know is this is fun and interesting.

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## Charlie Derrington

Boy David !!

That sure is a nice looking piece of maple.

It's still hard to tell on the top, but it looks like a slipped miter. The back miter looks right. 

I wasn't inferring it had been repaired. So far as I know, the only thing I remember was the board coming off at MerleFest a few years ago and me having no clamps, or glue pot with me at the time.

Charlie

----------


## Spruce

David...

Incredible detail in those photos...thanks!

You wouldn't happen to have a pic of the detail on the underside of the fingerboard extender, would you?

Thanks!

Bruce

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## mandoryan

It looks like the builder scraped the binding before the joint and thats what makes it look like it is filled. I could be wrong, but that is what it looks like to me. It left a high spot right at the point.

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Hi, Charlie. I wasn't implying that you were suggesting it might have been repaired. Jim Hilburn was wondering if a repair might have been done. Yes. I remember your concern when the fingerboard came off. I fixed it myself when I came home. You can't tell that it ever came off. However, you are right about it looking kind of like a botched job. They should have had you inspect it before it left the factory!

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Here is one picture of the fingerboard extension, Spruce. You can also see one of my old Ludwig drum sets. This is the kit I used on the Springfield Exit CD.

----------


## David W McLaughlin

And here is another...

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## Charlie Derrington

Aha!!

David, is that last picture an older picture? Look how nice the miter looks in that last one.

Inspect, heck. I love the "maker's marks" and individuality of a hand-made piece. Perfection is for machines and spoils the beauty.

Let's have a contest. Anybody know the wood used for the extender? Be very specific. If you win, you get a cookie.

Dave, Darryl, Ken, Brian, Spruce....you can't play because you know too much, already.  

Charlie

----------


## jasona

my instinct says ebony, but the way the fibres are fraying I have to say mahogany. But I know little to nothing about wood

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## David W McLaughlin

Charlie. The last picture was just taken right before I posted. Different angles and different lighting make a world of difference. Besides...no changes to the binding have occurred since it left the factory.

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## David W McLaughlin

Charlie. I played a 2002 Master Model over the weekend. It was naturally "distressed" by the owner. It even had spiderweb checking, just like my Loar. The binding scraping was right. It even sounded and felt like a Loar. Wow!

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## David W McLaughlin

Here is the scroll point on my Pag. Is this what they were trying to do at Gibson in 1923?

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Here's another shot of the Pag. I promise I won't get out of hand with Pag pictures on this Loar thread, but I thought these two might be interesting for comparison.

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## evanreilly

Birch under the extension???

----------


## David W McLaughlin

If I can guess the wood for the fingerboard extension, I want the distressed master model that was at the NAMM show! Even if I am disqualified, I want it!

----------

Madacassar Ebony Charlie??

----------


## Lynn Dudenbostel

Macassar ebony.... I get the cookie! &lt;G&gt;

Dude

----------


## jasona

D'oh! Always go with your instinct!

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## Charlie Derrington

Lynn......

You cheater. I didn't know you were watching!

FREE COOKIE !!

David, PM me.

Charlie

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

HA! Maverick was close.... no cigar, but I'll split the cookie with him! I'll collect at SPBGMA. See you soon....

Dude

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## Darryl Wolfe

OK Guys, back to the binding thing. #I think it's apparent that the binding was applied in 2 passes. #

I know I'll get alot of flack on this...but one thing I have noticed in these mitres (including the big scroll on the peghead is this: #on the side bound Loars only..not like Davids...........The binding channel is overcut in length at the mitre...one piece is glued in passed the point where the mitre tip should be. #The other piece gently butts to it with only a slight mitre to the end. #The excess binding is gouged out to make the joint look right and a small amount of filler is added. #I'll take some pictures to demonstrate. #But you can see a small "bump" just passed the mitre tip on every one of them (they did the F4's this way too)

They did the PH scroll similarly in that the binding is either removed so that it's below the surface..or simply painted over to accomplish the right effect/shape to the mitre

Back to the top bound ones like Davids..yes this was the first triple bound (Jim H). #Also notice the snow white inner line. #They were not all this way, some had ivoroid. #Additionally those line are more like 0.025-0.027. #Which is why is't hard to get binding on pickguards or F'5 "copies" to look right. #Everybody sells 0.020" stuff (remember they dealt in millimeters on the binding, since it was imported) #Most every piece of original binding is an odd size compared to today. #The pickguards were two layers of 0.070. Later they were single layer after they ordered thicker stuff #standard single binding on side bound Loars, F4's and A-models was 0.70"

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

Same here Mav... I'm a terrible speller. But Macassar is commonly confused with the island of Madagasscar, and I'm not sure I'm spelling either one just right. There are some incredible rosewood species on Madagasscar, but I don't think ebony grows there.

Dude

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## Darryl Wolfe

I've used some Macassar ebony. It works nicely, doesn't chip as bad as Gaboon(Gabon) ebony and is significantly lighter in weight and color. It made some nice bridges, but they look like dark rosewood

----------


## Chris Baird

Macassar is from the east indies. Most likely the indonesian islands. Can I get a crumb?

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## Brian Aldridge

I thought the fretboard extension was supposed to be ebony according to Loar's original specs, but that only a few (or one) actually were, with most being maple. I am almost certain mine is maple.

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## Charlie Derrington

Yours is maple, Brian. That was the original spec.

They start becoming almost exclusively Macassar by mid-'23...which, by the way, is an ebony. The original factory specs. are typed maple, and then crossed out and (in Loar's handwriting) changed to ebony.

Pretty cool, huh?

Charlie

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention they went back to maple by mid-'25/early-'26.

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## Brian Aldridge

Thanks for setting me straight Charlie. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

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## Spruce

Weren't some of the extenders made from _very_ distinctive looking (i.e., black lines) Brazilian Rosewood?

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Every one I've seen was Macassar. I've had the fingerboards off quite a few and it still looks like Macassar to me. Of course, anything is possible.

Charlie

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## Lynn Dudenbostel

I had John Reischmann tell me that when his Feb. 18, '24 board was replaced with a radiused board, that the extension appeared to be rosewood. I told him it was more than likely macassar ebony, as it looks a lot like a dark chocolate brown rosewood. It even has some striping in it. I bought several boards from a fellow a few years back. He brought them to my shop and said they were rosewood. I ran one over the jointer and promptly gave him his asking price. I knew what I had! He was pretty convinced it was rosewood, and I told him I thought it was mac. ebony. I'm not sure he ever believed me. That's O.K. I'm happy and so was he.

Dude

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## Spruce

"I had John Reischmann tell me that when his Feb. 18, '24 board was replaced with a radiused board, that the extension appeared to be rosewood."

That's actually the Loar that I remember looking like Brazilian Rosewood...

"I ran one over the jointer and promptly gave him his asking price. #I knew what I had!"

So Macassar is considered to be more valuable than (Brazillian) Rosewood? #Or maybe just Indian? #I just went and perused ebay for Macassar ebony, and it seems to be hovering in the 60.00/b.f. range...
(Excuse my ignorance--I'm really not into exotics all that much...)

If anyone has a chunk of Macassar that will do a couple extenders, I'd love to do a swap for for some tonewood...

Thanks!
Bruce at Orcas Island Tonewoods

----------


## Chris Baird

Here is a pic of Macassar I found.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

The Macassar I prefer is quite a bit darker (with less pronounced stripes). The heartwood, in a good piece, almost approaches Gaboon in color. (brown/black instead of blue/black) It is really hard to find the right color and I'm constantly searching for it.

Charlie

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## Darryl Wolfe

I got mine from Charlotte Hardwoods (NC). #It is consistent Hersheys chocolate brown in color and cost me $47/bf..currently I only have bridge blank sizes left of it....I experimented with it as an alternative to the Gabon I was paying $72/bf for. #Many Loar bridges have brown in them, but I can't say that they are Macassar..they look Gabon to me.

Inspecting my July '23 Loar..the extender appears to be Macassar ebony...actually a pretty neat trick to avoid the problem of getting the maple stained dark enough. #You can see a variance in the color between the riser block and the extender...the extender is more consistently dark

Here's a couple of pics

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

another

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## Darryl Wolfe

Spruce..here's the picture you wanted. I had to mess-up the contrast to show you the detail

----------


## GTison

charlie or Journal was the reason to use this ebony to avoid staining the maple or are there other reasons. what tone differences do you think there might be?

----------


## Spruce

Thanks to all for the absolutly wonderful pics and commentary...
Great camera-work on the shots that are so hard to get...

This thread rules...

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here's another shot Spruce. I need to figure out how to do a manual focus shot to get this really right
(73992)

----------


## Spruce

Lovely slab-cut sides, no?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I'd say so..Ho?

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## Darryl Wolfe

A little better shot

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## Darryl Wolfe

I had a special request for pics of Lloyd in its Travelite case

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## Darryl Wolfe

The peghead floats nicely

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The mitre of 73992 and how it appears that there is filler and possibly a filled radius centering hole.

----------


## Ken Waltham

The sides of your mandolin are lovely, Darryl.
You would'nt believe how similar 73993 was in the grain of the sides.
Very interesting.
I think on a whole, my mandolin was perhaps a little darker in colour. Hard to tell exactly, though.
Mine had an ebony fingerboard extension, and, as Lynn noted, you could even see the saw marks on the side of it.
Ken
Oh, and Charlie, my Fern's extension is indeed maple, just as you said.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

So look at just what crawled out from under the wood work. Thanks to Scott T. for getting this one on the map

Fern Loar 76547, March 31, 1924 w/Virzi

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Peghead

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Signature

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The back. This mandolin has essentially had only one owner..being passed from the original owner to his daughter and then to her son.

----------


## Skip Kelley

Absolutely beautiful!!!

----------


## f5loar

Looks pretty close to mine but not as clean. I see it has the lime green plush in the case vs. the darker green found in most Loar cases. These batchs with Virzis are among the best to found that included the Virzi. I've always suspected Sir Lloyd had a personal touch in the short run of Loar Ferns. The finish has a different hue, the Virzi intalled just perfect and the inlay is so radiant and cut so perfect. 76548 is still out there somewhere. I wage a paycheck it's a Fern Loar with Virzi too.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The owner claims it has no scratches. I suspect a good cleaning is in order to bring this baby to its best of looks

----------


## mandoryan

Geez, wish my grandpa was a mando player....   That guys one lucky descendant, if you ask me.

----------


## Skip Kelley

""Geez, wish my grandpa was a mando player....  That guys one lucky descendant, if you ask me.""

I will second that!
Tha only thing handed down to me were looks! They aren't the greatest either!

----------


## Ken Waltham

Hey, LoarF5.
Your Fern Loar has to be the cleanest one on the planet, for sure.
When I saw it, I couldn't believe it.
Only one I've ever seen as clean turned up in MN a few years back. But it was missing it's t/p cover, so you still win!
This Fern Loar looks great. Unusual back, is it? Hard for me to tell by the photo, but, is it kind of quilted???

----------


## Spruce

"Unusual back, is it? Hard for me to tell by the photo, but, is it kind of quilted??? "

I'm guessing Silver Maple cut on the slab but, yeah, it's a little hard to tell...

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I will be getting better pictures today..stay tuned

----------


## evanreilly

To the best of your knowledge, did this mandolin (76547) come out of New Jersey?

----------


## danb

Evan- the owner hasn't expressed a desire to be named yet so we'll keep his name and wherabouts a secret unless we hear otherwise

----------


## danb

By the way..

#76547 at the Mandolin Archive

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I think the owner is still trying to catch his breath. He doesn't even know what a truss rod cover is. At this point we have no information on where the "original owner" may have lived, but he passed away in the '50's. The mandolin has remained "unbeknownst heirloom" until now. As the owner allows, more info will be made available.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

ps: The owner is very excited about the photos being posted here, in The F5 Journal and on mandolinarchive. But, he is not ready to handle anything else at the moment

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76547 new pics

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I think we can say it's in very very nice condition. The back is almost exactly like my July 9, '23

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Nice nice nice

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

front

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

peghead

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

side

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

back

----------


## Tom C

Oh my.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

one more

----------


## danb

If you folks remember the "shoplifted Loar" from a while ago, I've just received this wonderful image showing the pencilled-in serial beneath the vandalized labels from Dexter Johnson of Carmel Music



This is a great photo- it shows how Gibson mandolins with obscured serial numbers can be made to identify themselves under duress. It's not just the Loars that have this feature, it is assumed that each mandolin had this number pencilled in on the wood beneath the label that was applied later in the building process.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

2/26/23 72204 Loar and 84252 Fern. #Photo by f5joe. An interesting study in binding and finish differences

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Given the recent price rise of Loars, is there any chance someone would choose to do a "Virzi-ectomy" on one that still had the Virzi, which some have done in the past to improve the tone? Gruhn preaches originality. Will one with the virzi removed still get top $?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Jim, In my opinion it does not affect the market price of the instrument, particularly if it is properly removed, glued back together and remains with the instrument. I do not wish to go on record as recommending that other folks remove their Virzi, but if I owned the instrument..I would remove it for my own satisfaction.

----------


## ethanopia

so fellas what are the odds of the heir to 76547 selling it?
Is that person a player? or just asomeone who inherited a sweet instrument?

not that I'm remotely interested mind you just an inquiring mind...

thanks 
Ethan

----------


## 76547

I am not willing to sell but would love to have someone play it on a recording. Ama slo trying to find a music house in Seattle that would be willing to display it for others to enjoy.

----------


## Brier

Jack,
I'm building my 4th mando and would love to at lest see it and take pic's. I have some friends that are also building and if you are willing we would love to get together. I live 10 miles north. I also have an idea for display at a local store. e-mail me at res0tmvd@verzion.net.

Peter.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Jack, I'm glad you jumped in there....I didn't want to handle that one

----------


## danb

Hi Jack, and welcome to the Cafe. That's quite an amazing mandolin to find, and I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding folks who'd be happy to record with it. I'm starting pre-prodcution on my second mandolin record myself, so I'll wait by the mailbox over here 

Thanks for letting me & Darryl use all those fine pictures at the Mandolin Archive web site too, it's been very popular, the record has been viewed over 5,000 times in the last week alone!

----------


## keithd

Hey Dan,

That's great news about your recording project; would you care to tease us with any details? Tunes...instruments...collaborators?

Keith

----------


## 76547

Is there anyone in the Seattle area recording mando music in the near future?

----------


## Glassweb

Hello Jack - My name is Steven Brown and I'm a mandolinist living here in Seattle. Although I'm not recording at this moment, I do own a lovely, original "unsigned Loar" and would love to get a chance to "compare notes" as it were and go over these mandolins together. I've been playing on and off for over 30 years and am always excited to test drive these wonderful Loar instruments. Let me know if you'd like to get together and, of course, congratulations on becoming a caretaker for this exquisite mandolin.

----------


## Brian Baker

I looked at an old Gibson F-5 mandolin (owned by someone else) the other day that got me wondering about it being a Loar... (I don't have pictures)

First off, there were no labels. The owner just bought this mandolin recently, and was told that it had been in a flood many years back, and that the labels had come off... Sounded fishy, but the rest of the mando was interesting:

- Flowerpot, "The Gibson" (don't recall if it had the tit on the T or not)
- Dark burst, small area of brown in middle
- The finish showed some dull grey places that actually seemed like they could be water damage.
- On the back of the headstock, it appeared that the tuners were replacements. There were two drilled holes visible at at the end nearest the neck, below where the "new" tuners ended. They were about in the spot I would expect from looking at some of the early Loar pix on mandocafe. Also, you could see impressions in the finish of the previous tuners (with the fleur-de-lis or "arrow" looking shape at the ends).
- No black in the binding, just pure ivory colored (headstock and body)
- Looked like one-piece back, no flame to it...
- Seems to have been played for many years (lots of wear spots in the top finish, finish was sanded off neck, sounded great)
- Tailpiece cover was The Gibson, but not the Loar style with the little dots around the edge. Was brass-colored, as if original silver (?) had worn off...

This was all I remember... But my question is, without labels, is there any way to tell if this is a Loar? Do Loars have any engravings or stampings on the inside of the body? Did Loar sign the underside of the tops, or just the labels? Could I look in it for evidence of a removed Virzi? Given the wide variety among the Loars, how can I tell if this is an actual 20's era instrument, or a fake? Or something like a Randy Wood copy that has had the labels removed? Or maybe a late 20's post-Loar flowerpot F5?

Any help you can provide me would be great!

----------


## 76547

Glassweb,

I would appreciate getting in touch with you. Kindly get me a phone number.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

About the best way would be to let Darryl, Tom, Steve G, Lynn, Frank R, me, or any number of experts look at it. Of course I can't be sure without looking, but it sounds wrong. (particularly the binding, but stranger things have happened).

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I agree with Charlie...post a picture and let us look. On the surface it does not sound authentic

----------


## Ken Waltham

My immediate impression on that one is a Randy Wood F12 conversion.
Single binding on the body says "F12".
Ken

----------


## Brian Baker

Ken, Charlie, Darryl:

Thanks for your replies! You are all correct: very hard to say with no pictures... I will try and snap some digital pix if I can and keep you posted.

Just a couple quick questions about the areas that make me suspicious:
- I assume that "single bound" means no black stripe on the binding, just white. And if so, were there no Loars with single binding?
- The back seemed to be one-piece, but with no flame or curl... The burst was nice, but the wood looked kinda plain compared with most Loar pix I have seen...
- I would agree that even if water damaged, you would expect some remnants of the stickers. More likely that it is a copy and someone has removed THOSE labels ...

But the tuners have me puzzled. I saw imprints of the "arrow-style" tuners in the finish on the back of the headstock... What years were arrow-style tuners used on Gibson mandolins? Seems a lot of the '23s have them... If it is a 70s era copy or conversion, would the builder have used these? Perhaps an old Gibson neck on another body?

Thanks for your speculations... Again, I will try and provide some pictures if can get them.

Brian Baker

----------


## f5loar

you seem to think it's a Loar but the owner does not? Or the owner just dosen't know. But making a comment that the labels fell out starts to raise the red flag. He may have bought it as a Loar as such and then found out it was not.
Where is that Loar FON under the Loar label? Where is the
penciled in serial number found on most Loars? How about the original case. The speculation it might be one can run high but a photo is worth a thousand words. Then again this may be one of those famous "unsigned" seconds Gibson made so many of during Loars time. Charlie and Darryl know all about these. Most seemed to have surfaced out west but none have been allowed to be officially documented by a 2nd opinon.

----------


## Brian Baker

Tom:

Your comments are all true...the lack of labels and a case seem really fishy. I met this guy at a picking session, and he had just bought the mando recently, so he was telling me what he was told. He did not seem to know much about mandos, and I don't think he even knew what a Loar is. He was told it was a 1948 Gibson... Anyhow, I'll try and get in touch with him and get some pix up on this forum! 

Thanks!
Brian

----------


## Ken Waltham

I once owned a Randy wood conversion that was a 1948. It also had a very plain back.
I think it even had a mahogany neck, that Randy stained to look like maple.
I also think those early Gotoh tuners had arrow ends, too.
This one I had, had Kluson tuners on it, I think.
That's a long time ago, but, it was quite "yellow" in the finish, and, BTW, sounded excellent.

----------


## danb

Hey Loar fans, here's a "support your local mandolin archive" product that I expect lots of folks here would like.. an F5 Mousepad made up from the pictures Frank Ford took recently of #72052

It's a nice big mousepad with a high-detail print on it. You can see a bigger image of it by following the link.



Proceeds help me convince my wife that it's a good idea for me to spend more time adding instruments to the database

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

As has been said...I'm betting on it being a 1948 F12 conversion of some sort

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Here is the cover of some Loar hand transcribed sheet music. It comes complete with first mandolin, second mandolin, mandola, mando-cello, mando-bass, and guitar, all written by hand. Acquired from Lloyd's widow in the 1950s or 1960s, acquired by me in the 1970s.

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Hre's a closeup of some music...

----------


## David W McLaughlin

My daughters love to play with toys...

----------


## Big Joe

Hey David!
How could a fellow like you have such beautiful daughters???  .

----------


## David W McLaughlin

They get their beauty from their mom, who is a total knockout. Do you think I'll have my hands full when these girls are teenagers? 

Thanks for the case loan, Big Joe. I believe that a case-for-purchase has been located for the mandolin, so I will return yours soon.

----------


## David W McLaughlin

Here they are again...

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I can certainly see you in both of 'em

----------


## 76547

David,

Your daughters are beauitiful. They look about the same age as my boys, 12 and 15. 

I did purchase a Calton case with Dan's assistance. I should have it some time towards the end of next week so stay in touch.

Big Joe, thanks to you also.

----------


## f5loar

Wow! The oldest one even has your right hand pick hold
down pat. Bound to turn out to be mandolinist.
At least they get to practice on the cream of the crop.
Wished I'd had a daddy with 20's F5s.

----------


## David W McLaughlin

76547. My daughters are 8 and 6 years old. They thank you for your compliments. Dan has kept in touch with me regarding your case. Sorry I have not called. I've been very busy here in the studio on various projects. We'll talk this coming week.

f5loar, My daughters both understand the value of my instruments and they really play these things, and know how to take care of them. They hunt for notes on their own now. I don't mind what notes they play as long as they work on good tone, taste, timing, finesse, and accuracy (TTTFA).

----------


## chris

You never know what will turn up!! #Price will remain confidential.

----------


## f5loar

we don't care about the price but do give us the serial
number!

----------

Oh Chris.. tell us the story! You beat me!!!

----------


## Brookside

Is that what I think it is? I've never actually seen a Deitermier wicker-seat chair before. And they're just leaning a mandolin up against it? They obviously don't know what they've got there....

----------

Well Chris beat me to it!!!.. Dadgummit.. I was a day late getting over there.. There was a rumor that it was over there in the store. The old lady said it was an old Gibson F-5 and I guess it ended up being the holy grail of all mandolins!!!!!

----------


## chris

Hey Mav, It's still there. I didn't have the 200 dollars to buy it. 
  I couldn't resist putting the mando in the window and taking the pic. Sorry if I got anyone excited, I should have saved it for April 1st.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Sorry guys, I've been out a while...but Chris, I knew it was you messin' arounf here. Sorry I missed you.

You know darn well that if a Loar turned up 2 miles from my house in the Aiken Antique Mall, I'd but the laughing stock of the community

----------


## chris

Darryl,We missed you at spbgma,many including I were looking forward to seeing you. Next trip down I will buy you a beer. Your town is very nice.Great antiques there too. 79837 Left 76792 Right

----------


## mandoJeremy

I thought that whole deal seemed suspicious Chris and Darryl. I was absolutely in shock that there was a Loar in Aiken and Darryl didn't get it! The joke's on me I guess!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Chris left me a message right after spbgma, and I never was able to break free and make arrangements with him. I knew he was in the area....so this "joke" didn't hold alot of water on this end...f5loar bit though

----------


## f5loar

I bit because I knew it was meant to be for you since it was
in Aiken. I was just going with the ride. However I did think there was some computer enhanced cut and paste going on with it. Who would have the balls to lean a $125,000 Loar up against an old wicker chair in an Antique Mall in
Aiken, SC of all places. Not me!

----------


## evanreilly

Wait a minute!!! Doesn't that one have the original price tag on it for $250.00

----------


## mandophil(e)

I tune in to this thread every day hoping for another fix! #Is it done? #Please bring back the LP of the D!

----------


## Chris Baird

It's Loar picture of the day anytime you want it at mandolinarchive.com.

----------


## Spruce

OK, I'll add some content to keep this thread at the top of the heap...
(Which is where it belongs--man, there's some great info here...).

Here's a pic from earlier in this thread of one of the points on a Loar...(great pic, by the way--thanks!)
I've had the good fortune to grok a half dozen Loars in the past month or so, and all of them display this quirk at the point.

What's the thinking and build order on this detail? #
Was the point inlaid into the binding or vise-versa? #
Is this supposed to produce a stronger point, or is it just a quirk of that eras build process?
Is this detail employed by any modern makers (Gibson?)...?

Every time I looked at the point on a Loar, I wondered about the thinking behind this detail. #It just seems so uhhh, logical, to flush the point to the rim and bind away...
As 1000's of Loar copies since have demonstrated....

Thoughts?

----------


## ethanopia

That is a quirky detail Bruce and I never quite got it until this pic. I've seen the other disscussion on the matter earlier in this thread but my brain was no comprendo? so thanks for that pic. 

 I can't even begin to imagine why they would do that it just seems odd?

I guess with that little lip it might might give another ( or more) surface to bond #and maybe more gluing surface equals more strength? Or maybe that little articulation gave it more strngth? wierd for sure.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Hi Guys, I don't know either, but most every one is that way. I did bump one of the Loars I've owned while at a festival we were playing and knocked the piece loose. It certainly didn't fall off..and was retained nicely for several days by the scarf joint. I simply slid it out and reglued it when I got home.

I think a cutter may have been used to do that slot for the protector..based on how nearly identical they are all executed..only a guess though

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75940 March 31, 1924

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75940

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75940

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

75940

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

87346

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

87346

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

87346

----------


## ethanopia

whoa 75940 has a two tone nut. I supose they did that because they thought that the A and E strings sound better with Ebony.

interesting...

----------


## mandoJeremy

Is it me or does 75940 look like the tuners on the right side are higher than the left, which is opposite from most of the other Loars that had the left side usually higher.

----------


## mandofiddle

What are all those little circle inlays on 75940? #Did they do that at Gibson, or after the fact?

----------


## Michael Lewis

Holy rhinestones Batman! I hope that was done many years ago, because if it was done recently it would take a real . . . well it ain't mine, and I wouldn't do it. 

Jeremy, you're right, the treble side machines are set higher.It shows most accurately on the pic of the back.

----------


## Brian Aldridge

I've had the pleasure to play 87346, and I must say it sounds as good as it looks.

----------


## RI Jim

Hey Michael, Your note just TOTALLY made my day ! I'm putting the finishing touches on a couple of instruments in the white here and i noticed on has the keys slightly higher on the left side.... if you don't know to look for it it's not noticeable, but now i can hype my 'mistake' as being ' just like a Loar ' .... Even if it is a mistake on the Loar as well !

Life is Good !

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I think the rhinestones were done by the orig owner H. S. Torro. #I've known the mando since the mid '70's and it was that way then. #Maybe the owner (an occasional cafe cruiser)can shed some light. #I do know that some have had to be replaced to maintain the correct look/balance #

ps:That mandolin came within a whisker of being my first Loar in '75/'76..just didn't quite work out

----------


## evanreilly

Is that 'rhinestone' one pictured on the Norman Blake album cover??

----------


## LGS

The rhinestones were on 75940 when I bought it. I almost didn't buy it because of them. I remember at one point a jeweler in Nashville thought they might be white sapphires, but couldn't tell without popping one out.

The nut is compensated with the G & D backed up slightly. Danny Ferrington made it for me years ago. It's an ebony base with a bone insert to back up the G & D. It's worked very well.

And yes Evan that's it on the cover of the Blake album. You have a good eye.

----------


## evanreilly

Ah, then it is probably pictured with that other Loar in that group!
I would also guess that it appears on the 'Master of Bluegrass' album as well.

----------


## 76547

Bruce,

I remember you looking at mine at the Wintergrass Festival and commenting about it. At the time I was in such awe that I didn't give it much thought. I am looking at the picture and thinking architecturally and structurally as these are the businesses I am in. In looking at the picture it seems to me that this was done to help keep the top and bottom bindings from twisting out/off when hit. If hit from the outside or inside and forced one way or the other the tip binding would keep the edge binding from moving with how it is cut into the edge bindings. In other words these joints are not just flat plnes that could slip. The are cut into each other and stronger.

----------


## danb

Here's #72361, a new listing at Elderly Instruments:



Kind of an ugly sunburst, in my opinion!

----------

The burst does look differen't, Looks more like a 22 than a 23 to me. I wonder if it has been refinished?

----------


## Mark Marino

If you have amassed a large collection of pictures of Loar's, there's probably a reasonable market for a coffee-table book. I know a few geeks like me that have both the Gruhn vintage guitar book, and the history of Gibson. I could stare at these pictures four hours (maybe I need hormone replacement therapy)

----------


## danb

From Jack Schultz, here's Scott Tichenor playing 76547 (happy birthday 76547, signed 80 years ago today!)

----------


## danb

One more from Jack (reduced image sized for him)..


Happy birthday !

----------


## evanreilly

Dan B: you spoiled the mystery... you posted a pic of Scott...&lt;GGG&gt;

----------


## Tom C

75940
- That one looks like it has 2 totally different types of maple pieces on the back.

----------


## danb

not to go too far off topic, but scott's also pictured here!

----------


## f5loar

I guess I have to pull out my old Fern Loar and wish it a Happy Birthday today too!!! I just did a show with it last month and it's never sounded nor played better. I do think these things get better with age.

----------


## danb

Here's another of Jack's pictures- Bruce Harvie playing Jack's Fern..

----------


## Spruce

Is that mandolin _really_ small or....???

----------


## OdnamNool

Shrink, darlin'...shrink... #Yep... #My 2 weeks are up... #Nothin's changed... #My brain still thinks like it does...
Twisted... #*NICE LID, DUDE!!!* #_RED!!!_ #That's it...Won't bug ya any more... (not here, anyways...) #

----------


## OdnamNool

Wait! One more buglious thang... (since I have the attention of a _GREAT_ mandolin player... I'm stuck, here...anyone feel free to chime in... Yer playin' "Somewhere" (chords=Bflat, Bflat7, an unknown chord that I made up..., Aflat, Fm7, Bflat7, an unknown chord that I made up, Aflat, Bflat, Bflat7, Gflat, cm, Aflat, Dflat, blah, blah, blah... I'm stuck on the "chorus!" I got, "Someday...somewhere...we'll find a new way of living..." B, Aflatm7, Eflatm, Fm7... what's the next chord? What are the chords for "We'll find a way of forgiving?"... And...if anyone responds...if you can...put those chords on a chart-type situation. (I can't seem to access any chords here at the cafe...) But, that's probably just me... Does any of this make sense?

----------


## Scotti Adams

..can you get more vague?

----------


## danb

Got Scroll?

----------


## danb

Tailpiece cover

----------


## ethanopia

I love the tailpiece cover shot Dan, It is now set as my desktop and man it looks good...nice pic. The wear on that is just perfect.

----------


## danb

we get some doozies submitted! Keep 'em coming guys, you know who you are!

----------


## OdnamNool

> ..can you get more vague?  #


Yuck-yuck-yuckity-yuck-yuck-hardyharhar! #HAHhahhahahahoho! #Thanks for the chuckle!

YIKES! #When I try to be _specific_ I'm interpretted as _vague!_ #When I try to be _vague_ I'm interpretted as _specific!_ #urrrrrr.... these darn clickity-clack-tippity-type-keyboards...computers...urrrrr

(Did I spell "interperate" correctly?) #Interpret??? I just changed it... interpret looked more correct...

----------


## mandopete

> I love the tailpiece cover shot Dan, It is now set as my desktop and man it looks good...nice pic. The wear on that is just perfect.


Good idea! #I just set the scroll as my desktop - really cool.

As Bruce Harvie would say....*nice stinger!*

----------


## danb

Another big tailpiece shot is here

here's the thumbnail:

----------


## Michael Lewis

Wow! Great shot Dan. That really shows intimate detail of the engraving. You can see how each stroke was made. We seldom see such elegance anymore. Thanks.

----------


## mandolooter

Unless we're looking at one of your creations Michael!

----------


## danb

Got Fern?

----------


## danb

Virzi stamp..

----------


## danb

Arrow end tuners, nice & close. Note the litle stamped leaves next to the gears!



I've got an even bigger shot of this, if you don't mind 560k in your inbox I'll email it to you

----------


## danb

One more scroll shot...

----------


## danb

31 images of this same instrument here!

----------


## f5loar

You can always see the perfection that went into each
Loar signed Fern. Truely a thing of beauty unto it's own.
The Gibson F5 at it's peak of creation.

----------


## danb

Point protector, a nice photo:

----------


## Brier

Dan,
Would you post a pic of the back with the upper point? I would love to see that close up. Thanks thanks thanks for these great photos.
Peter.

----------


## danb

luckily I have one of that view

----------


## Brier

Thanks Dan!

Peter.

----------


## tope

Darryl,  A few days ago I saw a pic you posted of an H5 mandola that looked as if the 13th fret was on the binding on the crosspiece. Can you verify that?
Thx - Gary

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

That is correct Gary

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

How about this March 31, 1924 Loar figure and color

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Another ..75848

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

another

----------


## Ken Waltham

Those are the only photos I've ever seen of the Garris mandolin. Eugene Claycomb, I think?
Very cool. I guess I figured it was a Fern inly Loar, don't know where I got that idea.
Is that a Paganoni case?
Ken

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

It's not the Garris mando, which is a Fern...there are pics of it earlier in this thread

----------


## mandopete

Okay, I'll bite.....how did they get the Virzi out in one piece?

----------


## James S

Is that reddish colored Loar Wakefield's? If not, do you have any closeup pics of his Daryl?

----------


## Scotti Adams

..Franks is no where near original in color...Or I should say...the finish is not original...I believe Todd Phillips done the last refinish on it....its been blonde, red...etc.

----------


## Ken Waltham

OK, it's not the Garris Fern Loar... it sure looks red.
Is the photo an accurate representationof the colour?
Ken

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## Darryl Wolfe

The color appears lighter than normal on the Loar posted above...but it is red. #The pictures I had in the past showed it as having some red and being light in color. #These indicate that it too, like Garris's qualifies as an F4 red colored Loar.....pic of Wakefields mando..refin, but reddish

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## AlanN

Complete with the neat t/p cover - flowerpot inlay on ebony

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## Darryl Wolfe

Alan, I suspect you know the other Loar above..VB from VA. CXan you attest to the color. I haven't seen it in person

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## avanti

Hey, that's me with Franks's Loar! I can't wait until Wake arrives here in Minneapolis June 2 so I can A/B it again with my July 9. I still have one spot left in the June 5 five-person workshop, where there will be at least 3 Loars in attendance, plus a great birthday/pickin' party in the evening. Let me know if you're going to be in the area and would like to attend.

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## mandopete

I still wanna know how they got the Virzi out.......

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## Ken Waltham

Alan; I sure would like to know if that mandolin is red, too. I always lusted after the Garris mandolin, having never seen it in person. I love F4's, and having a Loar with that finish would be too cool!
Darryl... could there be another??? That's wild.
Ken

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## Scotti Adams

..Ive played Franks mando alot of times..to me its more of a dark pumpkin color or sweet potato color....but then again Im colored blind....really. I would like to know the story on the ebony TP cover....never got around to asking Frank about that ....

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## AlanN

Hey guys,

I don't know how/where/when I became the Garris Loar authority, but to quote Sgt. Schulz.."I know nuhcing"

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## danb

mandopete- usually, it's a fairly scary description. One method is (REALLY!) using a hook on a coat hanger or similar through the endpin hole to break the virzi feet at the weak point, then snap the remaining table in situ and bring out via f-holes. 

With care and the right tools, they can be seperated from the top, have their feet removed, and then just about make it out the f-hole intact.. have the feet re-glued. The one we see here appears to be the more cautious way of getting it out, or perhaps it's simply been re-assembled. Don't quote me on this method, I'm inferring from a bunch of informal conversations.

I'm not convinced that they are a negative on the sound as most folks are.. One thing to remember about high-end mandolins is that they are individual objects, and unique in response. It takes a fairly large amount of time on a high-end instrument to adapt your technique to the instrument, or figure out what technique the instrument itself best responds to. The Virzi seems to punish some ways of getting volume or bass out of a mandolin, but on the flip-side it seems to reward you for cleanly picked single notes. That said, many people whose opinions I really respect (and who have played many many of these things!) hate virzis and think they are effectively a mute that kills volume and bass response.

Lynn Dudenbostel puts virzis in some of his instruments. Lynn, if you're listening- do you want to share your opinions on what they do for the tone so I don't butcher what you've said to me by paraphrasing it?

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## avanti

Cliff Sargent made and gave Frank the ebony tailpiece cover, I believe.

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## AlanN

The one time I played Frank's '23, that dang t/p cover got in my way. You see, sometimes I position my forearm right on the t/p and that cover is much bigger than a normal, and, well...you get the idea

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## mandopete

Dan - thanks for the info! Most Virzi removal methods I've heard of seem to destroy the Virzi. I recall Mike Marshall mentioning that he and Todd Phillips removed the Virzi from his mando a inserting a wire hook up through the end-pin hole (a method that reminded me of a medical procedure). They broke the Virzi up into pieces and removed same from the f-holes.

I cant tell from pictures, but the Virzi pictured above appears the be in pretty good shape and I really wondered how they got it out.

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## Darryl Wolfe

That is the method I use to remove Virzi's. #The one above came out that way..you can see the glue and a spot in the f-hole deal where they grabbed it. #Most of the time the disc will crack cleanly along the grain in 3-4 pieces and separate from the feet. #The feet can usually be pulled out intact. # If you immediately glue it back together, most of the time it is barely noticeable

This is a Virzi I removed and glued back together

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## mandopete

Daryl - looks good. Now just one more question....how do you get the genie back in the bottle?

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## Darryl Wolfe

I've only known one person that wanted the Genie back  
Bobby Osborne

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## Brian Aldridge

You take a Japanese micro thin saw and saw the back off at the binding, reinstall it and glue the back back on.

----------

If you take a barlow pocket knife and slightly bend the end.. it works like a charm popping those suckers out

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## mandopete

Naw, I was thinking it was more like puttin' on of those ships in a bottle

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## Darryl Wolfe

72211, A new number. #Will be offered at Skinner

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## Darryl Wolfe

back

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## Darryl Wolfe

more

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## Darryl Wolfe

last

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## Darryl Wolfe

I lied, one more

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## Tom C

Wow. That looks brand new. No wear on the back of the neck. The finish doesn't even look crazed or cracked. I could just feel that grain looking at the pics.

----------

Daryl, Charlie explain the history of the dot in the I on the gibson script.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Loars have two patterns...that one and another that appeared around July 9, 1923..like this

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## Darryl Wolfe

Then they changed to something like this around '28/'29

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## Darryl Wolfe

an actual '28 F5

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## uncle ken

Darryl, why would a seller consign his instrument to Skinners rather than sell through this forum or announce through someone like yourself just like several others have done recently? I would imagine Skinners' fees are rather high.

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## mandoJeremy

What do you think Darryl? Judging by the pictures that has to be the most mint looking Loar I have ever seen. The varnish looks as clear and clean as a new MM. Where in the world do these undocumented ones keep popping up at and when is one going to fall into my hands?

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## Tom C

"Where in the world do these undocumented ones keep popping up "
I bet there are some in the NJ area. With the NYC mandolin Orchestra and the Bloomfield mandolin Orch thats been around for a long time. It not a loar I would think there are a bunch of F4's in attics.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Uncle Ken..I don't know..I imagine it's a matter of trust and just not knowing. This one was bought new and the owner died in 1928

Yes it appears to be virtually mint..I've been told there is only some slight marring of the finish on the back

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## Darryl Wolfe

72211

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## f5loar

I'll bet this one fetches that $150K plus mark.
Looks like somebody kept it in strings up until the
60's.

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## Spruce

Is the age of the 200K Loar close at hand??

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## Darryl Wolfe

I present this 71047 August 3, 1922 Loar for your viewing and comments

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## Darryl Wolfe

more

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## Darryl Wolfe

more

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## Darryl Wolfe

last

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## chris

Is that an overspray #of black Darryl?

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Whats up with the finish and color and the Tuners? looks like a new Flowerpot and Script?

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## AlanN

In the words of Homer..."mmm, chocolate."

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## evanreilly

This is at least the third Loar Skinner's has put up for auction. They apparently have established a good record for setting the benchmark prices and therefore owner's will consign to them. I went out to see the one that had the original price tag still on it; that was an impressive instrument. That one went for $88.6K, if I remember correctly. This one will be a large percentage higher, no doubt.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Come 0n guys...I expected much better from you on the '22

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## f5loar

Show me the labels inside and I'll tell you!

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## Darryl Wolfe

I expected so much more...Tommy, why do you even need to see the labels. Good work Maverick

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is that single bound?

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## Darryl Wolfe

appears so

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f-4 tuners?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yep..about 1921 or '22

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## Darryl Wolfe

more

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is this a conversion piece?

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## Darryl Wolfe

One has to look at the overall deal and say
Does it look right?
If not, do parts of it?
Are there any original parts to support that it could be a Loar?
What aspects are obviously not right?
What's left?

I haven't seen this in person, but I am 99.8% sure of what it is

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## Charlie Derrington

That's the early catalog Loar. Look at the tuner splay and weird binding. Also, I think I can see where the weird pickguard foot was.

Also, looks like its been re-finished. Of course, I could always be wrong.

Charlie

Yeah, I'm wrong. 

Some kind of conversion.

BTW.......talked to a friend of mine that saw the Skinner Loar. Says it's dead mint. Looks brand new. Skinner estimates it will go for at least 150.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Agree...I didn't see the last half of your post.

I thought the same until closer look

Fact...could possibly be orig sides and back
But, likely a 1920-22 F4 conversion

F-holes are not right
FB extension is not right
Inlay is not right
back of neck appears to have a raised volute
instrument is single bound

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yup I think f-4 conversion

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## f5loar

The reason I wanted to see labels is I suspect this is the famous "Pink" Calahan Loar that has been passed off as an original Loar for generations. Way back when Gruhn was just getting started and had to get Harry West to tell him it was a fake. Seems I recall the case is a Loar case which explains why there are a few out there missing original cases. I would think the top left curly cue would be all you need to know Loar didn't approve this one.

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## Ken Waltham

I don't think it's even an F4 conversion. It has F4 tuners, no doubt, but the neck heel is not right for an F4 from 1922 or before.
It's too blobby to be 1923 or after, unless it's from the 30's.
The look of the first point cutaway isn't right to my eye, either.
If anything, my guess is it used to be an F12.
However, the case looks real. What a shame....

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## danb

It's an F2 conversion, IMO. binding on the small peghead scroll is way off. Back binding is off. Top is refinished or replaced. Tuners are not arrow-end.

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## f5loar

Dan,the Tuners on early '22 Loars are not arrowhead.
It should have pearl buttons held on by screws and this don't! 
Ken, I thought F12 conversion too because of the heel cap.
And one note on the newly found Skinner '23. If it was so dead mint the silver would still be on the tuner posts.
I see a lot of nicks on the headstock. 
This thing has had a lot of wires put on it. Still it's pretty minty and $150K may be way too low for this jewel.
Collector status!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Some of you Loar owners really dissapoint me.....there are so many aspects of this mando that are obvious...how do you buy sell and own some of these things without having the requisite knowlege about the details...

Charlie Derrington is the only one that really got it right. #He jumped on it at first ..just as I did....but quickly determined the reality of the situation.....This is how you KNOW..if it's real....you look...you compare.

Maverick..good job..you knew something wasn't right from the getgo

Ken..if it's an F4 conversion..the neck heel isn't original..the god d__m neck has been replaced...!!!!!! #F4's have mahogany short necks!!!!

The peghead scroll is off because either...1..it's totally new or ..2 #Part or portions of the overlay are original.

If you look closely you can see that the "new" binding on the peghead has filler on the big scroll...if the overlay is orig...it was installed slightly left of center which caused the need for filler and screwing up the small peghead scroll...in any case the FPot is NOT orig...the "The Gibson" script might be original..I can't be sure

The back and sides are UNQUESTIONABLY original. #The one piece back is very indicative of a 1920 F4....at this point most F2's were birch, but not always.

Again, I have not seen this instrument in person, and the remote possibility exists that the sides and back are indeed original Loar... true to the serial number and date (but I doubt it)

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## Darryl Wolfe

I posted the collage of pictures to give a clue

There seems to be a raised volute on the back point part of the rear overlay of the peghead...NOT GOOD

The F-Holes are too big and not properly shaped..too big at the center

The heel button on the back reeks F4...not flat like a Loar
The tuners are obvious as to what they are
There is no evidence of double or triple binding
The "The Gibson" script is not true to year for even a 1921 instrument.

The FPot is not real at all, but could have been replaced during removal of the overlay


The fingerboard extension has a flat/square side to it ..not seen on any Loar
The fingerbard fretted extension does not have a square corner like almost all '22 Loars have..especially the earliest ones..before they figured out what they really wanted to do....and

the binding in general seems to be white and slightly rerouted into the body

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I for one don't think the script is original. The lettering is a slight to thin.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Agree for Loars..but maybe..just maybe OK for a late teens early twenties F4..check it out

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## Darryl Wolfe

It does lack the flow that the "thin" early scripts have

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## Darryl Wolfe

Maverick..email me at 
I'm trying to set up my new account

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I just sent you a email Darryl

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## ethanopia

Hey Darryl is someone trying to sell the odd ball in question? Or did someone just pull it out from under the bed and send you pics? Or is this some kind of test for the super slueths?

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## danb

Hey guys, here's a new way to link to the mandolin archive that reads more clearly...

Here's an example:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/76547

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## Darryl Wolfe

The mando in question was presented to me as an original...by a Loar owner,,,he wants a repro pickguard for it

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## f5loar

Is this the only Loar he has? (or doesn't have!)

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## Ken Waltham

I still say it's not an F4.
What I meant by the neck heel part is not from the neck itself, but the button on the back, that covers the butt of the neck heel. That's not an F4 "button". More like an F12.
F4 buttons, up to, and including 1923, have what is essentially a 1921 style profile.
That is, they have a distinct point, and a ridge up the middle, to that point.
They did not get the "new" neck proflie, which, BTW, is exactly like a Loar F5, until 1924.
They were obviously using up parts.
In 1922 they are truss rodded, yes, but it is done on a 1921 style neck, and back plate profile.
Agreed, it's maple.
The flowerpot and script are fake, IMHO.
They do not look right. I've got 2 F2's and 3 F4's here right now, with 2 Ferns and a Loar, and it's nothing like any prewar Gibson I've seen.
It's a Randy Wood, perhaps, perhaps someone else, because the refin work is not up to Randy's standards, I don't believe.
Still, it's a shame about that case... it's real.
Ken

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## 76547

I know when I was trying to find information on my Loar, before I had any clue what I had, I contacted Skinner because I saw the couple Loars they had auctioned. I only found them through a google search. I quickly found that this was a mistake. After a dozen phone calls from them I had to tell them, I am sure you know who, in no uncertain terms to leave me alone and that if and when I decide to sell my mandolin it would be through and to people who appreciate the instruments. I thank God that I got in touch with Scott, Darryl and Dan.

----------

Ken is right I believe on the F-4 back. I believe it was 24 when they went to that style button. Here is a good example of a back of a very nice F-4 1922 and below that a 1924 back. 

So we know F-4 tuners, back is a F-4 but probably a 24 back instead of earlier. Single bound, New script and flowerpot, raised volute probably on the back of the neck. F-holes seem larger than a loar F-5. Original loar case. So what percentage of this is a real loar f-5?

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24

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## f5loar

If you take it out of the case none of it would be from a Loar! But then again we are talking pre production date here. Few have seen the June 1, 1922 Loar up close and picked on it but I can tell you first hand there is no mistaking this was a prototype Loar and most likely the first one. I can't believe the 2nd one found would be so far off from this first one.

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## HoGo

The bindinng on the headstock doesn't look like a Gibson work. It is mitered... Only triple top-bound models were mitered. The back looks like pre 1920 F4. The flow of curves as well as the shorter upper point. I bet it is a conversion.

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## AlanN

Dat der F-4 is my old flame! and Dawggie owned it subsequently!

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That looks like a nice F-4 der Alan

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## AlanN

1924, #79700. I have a nice photo of Wakefield playing it several years ago. He said he wanted to record with it, never got around to that

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## f5loar

Does this '24 have the Virzi? Nothing finer than a '24 F4 with a Virzi in there. I would consider that to be the Cadillac of the round holers. 
Another interesting feature of this "early" Loar is the one piece back. Would not a one piece back be considered rare in the F4? Only about 3 Loars have been found with them so far.

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## AlanN

no virzi, 2-piece back

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## Darryl Wolfe

One-piece back is fairly common on F4 from the pre-Loar era.

Back to the mando....it is unquestionably original F4, maybe even F5 sides and back..not F12 ect ect. Anything could have been done to the button during building a neck and rebinding. The nuances of the points and the arching are dead givaways

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## Tom C

Darn, I thought a A-Jr where they plugged up the round hole, cut F holes, added a scroll and points,painted it black and added an f4 fretboard and headstock. And darn it, they didn't use the different abalone for the different parts on the flowerpot.

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## Spruce

_"Nothing finer than a '24 F4 with a Virzi in there."_

OK, we've discussed ad infinitum the effect that a Virzi may or may not have on an F5, but what about the effect that it may or may not have on an F4?

Love to hear opinions from someone who's heard an F4 before and after a Virziectomy...

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## Darryl Wolfe

I've owned Virzi F4's and A4's..in each case the resonsiveness of the instrument was considerably more like an F-hole instrument. Firmer feeling string and more edge to the tone. They all had the ability to "drive" them harder without flatlining

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## evanreilly

I think that part of the allure of the 20's F-4 with a Virzi is that it is clearly, maybe the clearest indication, of it being a Loar-era instrument. #My 1924 F-4,
78532, has a Virzi and is an exceptionally good sounding specimen of the model. #I certainly wouldn't do a 'virzi-ectomy' to compare the before & after tonal variations, but it, IMNSHO, sounds a lot 'better' than similar models from the same era without the Virzi.

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## Ken Waltham

I've owned several oval holes with Virzi, and I would say they benefit greatly from them. They focus the notes more, and are, of course really cool.
They sure do have that Loar mojo going too.
Can't say the same, IMHO, about f hole mandolins with Virzi's. My prediction is that the current fashion trend of putting them in modern instruments will end when players realize it's killing the sound of their instruments.
Back to this Loar thing, one interesting observation, it has a nickel truss rod cover, which only appears in early 1922. Another red herring, I suspect. I still feel the back button is too long, although it could be a perspective issue in the photograph. One piece back would speak of F4 more than F12.
Have we talked about labels? What's in it? The bogus date of Aug, 1922?
Ken

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## f5loar

I'm missing something here; If you have an original F4 that may have sometype of F5 sides and back and you know you have to put an all new neck and top on this to make it look like an F5 what's left to be original F4, the tuners,tailpiece and headstock overlay? It looks to me the back and sides is the only thing you could use from the F4. So bottom line it's not a Loar even though it appears to have been bought as one.
So when does the lucky owner find this out?
I still say this is the famous "Pink Calahan" bogus Loar.

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## Bob Sayers

I recall a handful of F-4 to F-5 conversions in the 1960s and 1970s--not unlike the numerous Mastertone tenor banjos that were converted to five-strings. #There was no intent to deceive; it was simply a response to the fact that Gibson F-5s of the period were, shall we say, a bit artless. #The practice was kind of frowned upon, though, since the only parts salvaged were the back, sides, peghead overlay, and hardware. #I believe that a well-known fiddler had one converted, though I heard that he later regretted cannibalizing a perfectly good vintage F-4. 

Bob

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## f5loar

Bob, this is true but in the Carolinas it was more than a handful. And when they photocopied Loar labels to put in them with serial numbers in line with real ones it made it really interesting to determine the real from the fake. It was felt then that if they could convert an F4 saving only the back,sides and headstock they could also build one from scratch but you wouldn't have the same quality wood back then or the exact curl cuts, etc. The inlay would be perfect from those 20's F4s amost like a transplant. Jesse McR. had the most well known converstion back then (I forget who did his but it was dead on it). Others like Ralph Rinzler sported conversions before they real ones. These fakes are still out there today and show up from time to time just like these undiscovered Loars are showing up. But for $130K plus you best know what you are buying. The photos shown here of a converstion in a real Loar case would fool many as has been shown here. We still don't know what it really is as only the new owner has seen it in person. When Darryl gets his hands on it the facts will come out. It I was that owner I would take the next plain to Aiken, SC to find out first hand what I had.

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## AlanN

Saw a very obvious fake Loar yesterday at Bass Mountain, right down to the two lables inside. The owner didn't know anything about Loar when he bought it for $3,000. Good sounding box, though.

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## Bob Sayers

Thanks, f5loar, for the additional information. That's very interesting. I didn't realize that folks were intentionally making fake Loars from F-4s. In any event, it's a good thing that others started to make legitimate copies from scratch or there might not be a lot of vintage F-4s around today!

Bob

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## Darryl Wolfe

I did my good deed a while back....I sold an F4 top (at a very modest sum)to a guy who used it to replace his caved F4 top. #He managed to get it on saving the original finish and binding. #I got the top and neck from a guy who had done a conversion to a '24 F4.

The dovetail on the neck is split out, so it's practically useless, but it serves as a wonderful peghead/tuner spacing pattern.

I do hate to go into a luthier's shop and see F4 tops and necks hanging with all of his tenor banjo necks that got separated from the original banjo

Moral to the story...it's not always totally unconscionable to convert, if the leftovers can go to a good use.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I thought I'd interrupt the Master Model deal and post some new Loars

72059, Feb 8, 1923 on left and 72204 Feb. 26, 1923 on right. The Feb 8 is the one my friend sold the nice fern to acquire.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Backs

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's some better shots from my site

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## Darryl Wolfe

back, both of these last two pics are 72059

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## troika

This is what we all aspire to be; owners and players of instruments like that!!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's some new pics of my July 9, '23 (73992)

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## Darryl Wolfe

more

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## Darryl Wolfe

Heel

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## Darryl Wolfe

last one

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## mandopete

Daryl - great photography as always!

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## Darryl Wolfe

One more..the mitered point deal...thanks Mandopete

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## Darryl Wolfe

This one is for SPRUCE and Scottie

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## Darryl Wolfe

For Jason by request

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## Darryl Wolfe

One more for Jason

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## mandomood

Darryl...you rock!

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## Jim Hilburn

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to miss getting the 15th fret right on the line.
 If that's the original finish, I want to know what they were using.( But probably never will)

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## Darryl Wolfe

Jim,

I have noticed that many/most Loars have the 15th fret crosspiece located such that the fret is ever-slightly behind the cross piece as shown here. The earlier posts exagerated this somewhat. The finish is original. I french polished the top and back years ago to remove some bad scratches, however.....the July 9, 1923 sidebound mandolins that I have seen ALL appear to be factory french polished..and this one too had the same shine and texture before I polished it.

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## Scotti Adams

...simply stunning Darryl...thats a great camera you have too...

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

OK..here's another
yes it is a pretty good camera too

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yes, I should have dusted it off better

----------


## Darryl Wolfe



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## f5joe

Is it a real Loar?

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## mandopete

> Is it a real Loar? #


......well, they got the flowerpot correct!

As I said before Darryl, these are really wonderful pictures! #Would mind telling us what kind of camera you are using and a little bit about your photographic techniques, especially the lighting.

This kind of detail is great to really appreciate the workmanship that went into these small works of art.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I use a Sony DSC-S85, which is a discontinued 4.0M camera. I think it was $399 when I got it about 1-1/2 yr ago.

I usually set it on the medium resolution setting which yeilds a 1600 x 1200 600kb picture. All the recent pictures where taken in the garge/workshop with the overhead door open. This gives bright indirect light. I try to take outdoor pictures on bright but cloudy/overcast days. Other than that, I've been taking 35mm instrument picture with fairly expensive Canon SLR's since the mid '70's. There kindof a knack to taking good instrument pics outside of a studio setting.

Thanks for the interest

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

ps...the Sony Digital has a Carl Zeiss lens with a macro/close focus setting

----------


## Jim Hilburn

One thing that's obvious from your shots is that you know to take pictures of the mandolin, not half of the yard or bedroom. Photo programs have a trim tool, but not everyone knows to use it.

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## mandopete

Not ony that but these pictures are large enough to show the details, but must be under the size limit to post!

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## Darryl Wolfe

You guys don't understand that I get around the size limit by feeding them from my site..they are not on Scotts server space. Do a right click..properties and check the address.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Like this new one for sale at Steve Swan Guitars
75703 Feb 18, 1924

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## mandopete

Okay Darryl, school us on this one....how exactly are you posting these? My understanding is that if yo post it as link, just the URL shows up. What is the magic?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

"add reply"...not the quick post...then the "image" button on top right...not the http:// button or "attach a file" button...then you type or paste in the address where the picture resides.

----------


## HoGo

You can do it in the quick reply as well. Just scroll down and you'll see the "Image" button. I wonder, is it against users policy to post pics that you didn't take without permission. If you have your ftp account with your pics, just paste the address... You can easily paste the address of a pic you posted earlier without doubling memory usage...

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## jasona

> I wonder, is it against users policy to post pics that you didn't take without permission.


As long as you credit the source I'm sure its fine. However, some sites do not like it when you post links to images on their servers. Doing so on highly trafficed sites like this one can lead to a huge spike in bandwidth for the host site (leading to spikes in charges for them as well). This practice, called "image leaching", is frowned upon by some to the extent that they will replace the leached images with singularly nasty, unpleasant images (not PG-13). If you do do this, do like Darryl and host the images yourself--most internet accounts come with free web space that can do this. Be careful!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks Jasona.....I never link to someone else's site (e4xcept Ebay). Now the practice of lifting someone else's picture is touchy. Generally speaking, I lift pictures only for F5Journal archival purposes with respect to Loars. Also, when I do, I generally know the owner of the picture, and it is fully understood what my intent is. In the case of the Loar pic above, that was lifted from Steve Swans site. I do not know him...but, I know the owner of the Loar. By posting that picture, I have only helped in the interest of the mandolin, which in turn is somewhat of a service to Steve Swan..Additionaslly credit was given. So, each case has to be addressed individually.

Another aspect is the "for profit purposes". In one way of looking at things, anything on the web is public domain as long as you don't use someone else's material for profit/personal gain.

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## ethanopia

Quick question here folks and this may not the right place to ask exactly, so forgive me but I guess it's worth a shot. 

What happened to that Loar looking case in the Classifieds that was advertised as a 1940's? Any idea? Anyone ANyone? Beuler? I didn't know they made green rectangle cases in the 40's, any idea what year it actually was and if it sold...thanks.
I responded to the ad but I heard nothing back....
-Ethan

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## Scotti Adams

Ethan..if its the one John Irvine had it sold the first day it was listed..

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## Darryl Wolfe

That case appeared to be a nice repro. The neck rest wasn't exactly right. Maybe not? who knows? More pics may have tiold the story better

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## f5loar

That was my thought on that case. I questioned him about details on it and he said he was mislead and pulled it.
I never saw it relisted. I suspected a reworked Pagonini case from the 70's.

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## Scotti Adams

..it was probably he case that went with the butchered Sargent Loar copy....he was the individual selling it too...makes sense..I know not long after they appeared they both were on hold real quick..

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## mandophil(e)

Anyone know about #75846, March 31 '24 listed at Mandolin Bros.? It is listed as on hold. Must have come and gone pretty quickly.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I don't know much about that one...typical '24 Loar, and it sold quickly

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## mandophil(e)

#75846 at Mandolin Bros. sold in a flash to the first person that called on it for $115k. Price was probably a little bit low.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is something I've never seen before. An original Virzi Ribbon with Gibson plaque as it came wrapped around a '24 Fern Loar (76554). Thanks to Lynn Dudenbostel for sharing this with The F5 Journal

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## Scotti Adams

..way cool...thanks Lynn and Darryl...great slice of history..

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## Tom C

It say "Made in Italy". So Gibson did not make the Virzi? Did they buy them stock?
or specifically for F-5s

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## Darryl Wolfe

Correct...Virzi made violins and used those contraptions in them too. The Virzi deal was a patented and licensed sort of thing...and some of us theorize that there may have been a sort of conflict of interest or falling out of sorts between Lloyd and management over it. Remember that Lloyds 10-string mando viola and his F5 both had one in them

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's a nice '30ish Fern--90476

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## Darryl Wolfe

another

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## Darryl Wolfe

another

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## Darryl Wolfe

another

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## Darryl Wolfe

another

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## Darryl Wolfe

last

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## Brian Aldridge

Some interesting things about 90476 are, it is from batch 9411, which dates it to 1927, verified by the way the back is carved at the heel cap. The heel cap is not pointed, and does not have the typical ridge. It is exactly like 85368, also from batch 9411. Both are maked Made in USA on the back of the peghead, but 90476 has a Guaranteed label where 85368 has the Master Model label.

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## mandoryan

Also interesting that the tuners stick out over the edge on the right side on the picture of the peghead. An anomoly in the jig? That fingerboard looks wide at the 12th fret and up too. Cool lookin mando though! Got a unique vibe to it.

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## danb

L-R: 70946 (F4), 76547 (F5), 85370 (F5)

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## danb

Backs..

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## danb

85370 is a previously undocumented Fern that came to visit tonight.

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## danb



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## danb



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## danb

Not a new picture of 76547, but heck I love it..

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## Scotti Adams

mighty fine, mighty fine...thanks Dan!

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## danb

t'was a fun night. Not pictured was a 2003 Gibson Sam Bush, an early (80's??) Vanden F5, and my Lebeda F5.. or for that matter.. the 1930 National Supro and 1931 National tenor guitar!

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## Scotti Adams

..there should be a law and I should be a lawyer

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## danb

"Hi, my name is Dan, and I like to see rooms full of vintage mandolins"

"Hi Dan"

Interesting to note on that fern is yet another new tuner plate design (roses around the top screw holes). I've seen enough variation in the waverly tuner plates to want to classify them into batches. I bet we'd find some interesting information out about the Loars & ferns from that. The little tiny details on the plates (stamped leaves, flowers, etc) seem to vary quite a bit between Loar batches etc. Very few close-up pictures of those around though, I only have a few sets I've taken myself really to go on.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Nice Fern 86652

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## Darryl Wolfe

Another shot

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## Darryl Wolfe

Peghead

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## Darryl Wolfe

Nice "gaggle" of mandolins
L to R
Feb 18 1924 # #75700 w/virzi
April 25 1923 ##73013
Fern # # # # # # ##86652
unsigned Loar #82369
Fern # # # # # # ##90476

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## Tom C

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>Boing!</span></span>

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## Tim Saxton

I am sprung!!

TS

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## danb

Can't get enough of these. I hope nobody minds so many pictures of the same mandolin..

#76547  is Jack & Sharon Shultz's March 31, 1924 Fern.

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## danb

Here's a huge photo of the gibson logo

Here's a small one of the signature label:


Check out this little dude with a harp sitting on top of the world, form the Virzi Label

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## danb

This macro shot of the fern inlay is also a little big to include on the page..

but this one of the serial number looks just about right..

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## danb

And I know it's huge, but I just have to share it here.. The scroll & side..

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## danb

This is the virzi stamp on the virzi itself, viewed through the lower bass f-hole:

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## danb

Another of the scroll

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## danb



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## danb

One more huge one...

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## danb

Last one...

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## danb

That one of the scroll is album-cover fodder

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## Spruce

Great shots, Dan....!

Any chance of a shot of the same point (the last shot you posted) coming at it from the other side of the point?

I have a tracing of that point from 76547, but a visual from both angles would be invaluable...

The dovetailed bone is a _very_ interesting signiture on those mandos, and a Loar is about the only place you are gonna see it. 

Very few makers duplicate this feature...

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## danb

for you Bruce, I'll make sure I get it

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## ShaneJ

Beautiful photos! #I can't help but think of all the flies I could tie with that chenille under the F-5 though. #Wooley Buggers out the wazzoo!

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## danb

10 points to gryffindor for fabric identification sjennings.

Oh to be that piece of fabric 1 month from now, for it shall remember the touch of the Loar, while the memory shall fade in my mind.

or words to that effect.

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## f5loar

Nothing like seeing the real nitty gritty of the world's finest up close and personal. You are seeing details the luthiers who made it didn't see with their naked eye.
When you see the beauty this close up you can almost feel the mystic in each one.

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## Bradley

I'll need three towels to get this drool off my Desk Top !!

Great Pictures

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## Tom C

<span style='color:purple'>Which should be my wall paper for today? Darn, you can wall paper a whole room with all these pics.</span>

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## craigtoo

I'm lucky, Dan tells me that my MAC keyboard and "no button mouse" has "Drool Protection" built in.... 
 

Hmm Imagine if I were to actually play that thing... 

craig

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## 76547

Spruce, Jack here. Hey, 76547 will be back in town after the 1st of August if you want to have a look.

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## danb

Here you go Bruce..

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## danb

Very Happy Pickers:

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## danb

Your jaw gets tired from all the smiling..

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## danb

First time I've really been explicit about it here of course, but I figure most everyone has figured it out by now from the pictures. Jack & Sharon have loaned me 76547 to work on some recording, the first major bout of which I'll be doing with Craig (pictured above with silly grin) this weekend. Looking forward to meeting Jack in the states in 2 weeks, but now's a good time for me to start saying *THANK YOU* to the Schultzes in public!

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## craigtoo

who's the bald guy? Least ya coulda done is Photo-shop some hair in there for him!

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## danb

Only so much you can do in photoshop Craig

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## Darryl Wolfe

Actually, I thought it was a before and after of you...after an "extreme makeover"

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## Spruce

Here's my favorite shot of 76547....

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## KevinM

Outstanding example. And the Loar looks good too.

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## grandmainger

> Only so much you can do in photoshop Craig


Like this:  



...

Sorry.... couldn't resist

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## danb

Hey this is craig here.... I don't really see a difference... Looks normal to me!!!

(visiting the loar..NOT dan...)

...and ladies he's single...
craig

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## Rroyd

I have a couple of photos that were taken of a couple of 1923 Loars at Weiser this year that were forwarded to me that I would like to post, but they exceed the file size limit. The computer and I are basically strangers, so I was hoping someone would have some input about ways that I could post these photos. They are in jpg files, but each are around 600,000 bytes, so I can't post them according to the site instructions. Thanks!

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## Ken Sager

Spruce,

Motel 6: $39.99
'23 Loar: $125,000
Lovely brunette holding a Loar at a Motel 6: Priceless!

 
Ken

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## danb

Ken- it's a '24 ! And besides, they aren't always sipping Cristal Champagne and munching on caviar, most of them are "working mandolins" 

Rroyd- if it's ok to post them on the web site (http://www.mandolinarchive.com then you can email them to me (there's a link here at the Mandolin Archive). Ignore the bit where it says not to email stuff that's too big.) I can really only add them to the archives if you know the corresponding serial numbers, though sometimes we can figure them out from who the owners are

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## Rroyd

Dan,
   For some reason I can't send them via the link you listed; my computer refuses to function when attempting to connect. I will try to contact the person who sent me the photos and see if he can reduce file size or figure out some way to post them. The mandolins were the featured performers in a 5 hour or so long jam, and were put through their paces by a musician featured in "A Mighty Wind." One of the mandolins has appeared here before, while the other is new to this site, although it has made guest appearances for many years with noted Bluegrass performers.

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## danb

Hmm, mighty strange if you can't reach the mandolin archive but you can reach the cafe.. they are both on the same server (which I maintain!). Well heck, give it another try I suppose and send me a cafe private message if it fails?

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## Rroyd

I can reach the archives site, but it refuses to cooperate when I try to post to the site via the link you listed. My operating system is old enough that I can't use the link listed elsewhere on the cafe the last couple of days that was shareware for modifying photo file size. Anyway, I'll keep looking for some way to get them on. Thanks

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## danb

Here's Bill Monroe playing The Apollon Loar, #73009 circa 1989. His comment at the time was "Notes good"

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## Darryl Wolfe

Nice "unsigned Loar" 81290...looks like a a Loar to me

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## Darryl Wolfe

81290

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## Darryl Wolfe

81290

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## Charlie Derrington

Looks a whole lot like mine........81250

Charlie

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## mandophil(e)

81290 is from batch 11985, which I believe dates it to December 1924. A great sounding instrument, previously owned by Aubrey Haney (among others).

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## f5loar

Well Charlie the old saying goes, you seen one Loar you seen them all! If you look at the missing numbers between those two numbers that leaves almost 38* more "unsigned" Loars unaccounted for to date. *not counting 81266 or 81268. These unsigned also seem to bounce between Ferns and Flowerpots.

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## danb

Here's a nice close up of 76547's scroll

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## danb

a few more pictures of 76547 that you might not have seen yet are here.

Any last photo requests? I'm hading it back to Jack next Friday!

I've got about 500Mb of images of this spectacular instrument, most of the good ones are here already. I'll probably post the outrageously huge ones somewhere on the mandolin archives. Would there be any interest in my burning a CDRom of these images for any builders or just plain enthusiasts?

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## danb

Getting that binding right inside the scroll must not be much fun! Here's a nice "Maker's Marks" shot..



If you want to see a huge version of this same shot, here it is

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## keithd

Wow Dan - I'm still a little dizzy from, looking at the big one. It's almost enough to give me scroll envy. Perhaps those makers' marks are a little like the Japanese concept of Shibui or Sabi; an intentional imperfection, natural to the materials employed.

Keith

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## danb

Ok, one more post from me tonight.. I've posted a fairly long-winded diary of my experience with the Loar so far on the home page of The Mandolin Archive. My take on the whole Loar pheonomena, after having had such a wonderful opportunity to explore it personally.

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## Brian Aldridge

81290 is a gorgeous instrument. Thanks for the pics. Could we see the back of the neck and peghead/tuners?

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## danb

Interesting to see this view of the point protector dovetails.. neck is up, this is the upper point..

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## Spruce

OK, folks...

How would you go about duplicating this point feature??

Bind the instrument, and _then_ cut the flat for the point, including the inset into the binding??

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## mandoryan

Do the new Master Models have this feature to them (dovetail corner pieces)?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's the best I have Brian

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mandoryan.. No the Masters do not have this dovetail corner.

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## mandoryan

Thanks Mav. Interesting..

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## danb

Mandoryan, I think the *distressed* masters do have that detail. Charlie showed me his personal distressed master model Gibson, and if I'm not mixing it up with his Loar (easy to do!) I believe I saw that detail on his distressed.

Incidentally, a lot of you guys probably already know this.. but having played about 6 2002-2004 Gibson F5s next to two different Loars a few days ago, my hat is off to Charlie and crew. I am a complete believer. The stuff they are making now sounds spectacular! We did some blind tests against Charlie's Loar (no virzi) and Jack's (virzi) and it was *very* hard to pick the new ones out against the originals.

If Charlie doesn't mind, I got a video clip of him wailing on a bluegrass piece that I could post somewhere soon!

It was wonderful to not only meet Charlie, but then to hear him rip into a pair of Loars and 3 new F5s in his office.. Gibson mandolins are in very good hands 

I got some nice pictures of Charlie's Loar, and a couple new ones of the ones at Gruhn's that I'll post soon as well

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## Charlie Derrington

I don't know, Dan....

I wasn't playing very well that day.

Of course, my Loar isn't a Loar. Just very soon after he left. Enjoyed you and Jack coming by and I've just got to say,  "Wow !", that Virzi Fern is terrific. 

Charlie

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## danb

Well Charlie, I'd hate to catch you on a good day then! 

Glad I came to see you *after* we recorded, I'd have felt too down on my chops to have the right attitude in the studio after hearing you. 

You were smokin'

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## 76547

Hey all, Jack here. 
Dan, thanks for our days in Nashville, they were great. #By the way 76547 says he misses you already  #How is the three point? #Watching 76547 and his partner, the March 31, 1924 Loar guitar, being played at Gruhn was an experience also. 
Being the rookie I am to all of this I was truly blown away listening to the mandolin playing of Dan, Charlie D., Chipper Thompson, Big Joe, Tim O'Brien & Brent Pruitt. 
Charlie and Big Joe, thanks for all the insight into 76547's history. #It really educated me and makes me appreciate what it truly is. #
As Dan said, you folks at Gibson are putting out some great mandolins and if there is anything I can do to assist you let me know. #And, if that day was a bad day for your playing I would love to hear you on a good day. #
Thanks again to everyone that I met in Nashville and I hope to see you all again some time.

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## onlyagibsonisgoodenuff

C'mon, Charlie, let Dan post the video! We'd love to hear ya pick!

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## danb

Here's a very interesting instrument, F5 #81250.

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## danb

That one is Charlie's personal F5  A fine sounding instrument!

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## 76547

A pic' of Charlie, Dan and I when we were visiting the folks at Gibson with 76547.

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## danb

I feel like "Danny No-Loar" in that picture

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## Darryl Wolfe

we'll just call you "Pokey no Loar No More"

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## danb

Ah, the good old days..

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## danb

Charlie had a try on 76547 as well that day, sure sounded good

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## danb

Here're Charlie and Dan R playing in Charlie's office. The number of super-fine F5s on hand that day boggles the imagination.. even though we only added one to the multitudes when we walked in 

I bet people will be talking about "Derrington's" in 50 years just like we talk about Loars.

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## mandopete

> I feel like "Danny No-Loar" in that picture


Not only that, but they mispelled your name too dude!

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## mandophil(e)

Charlie or Dan:

Tell us about 81250, please. Beautiful back, looks sweet (in the Archive photos). Is it an "unsigned Loar"? It looks awful similar to 81290, posted recently. I guess they're cousins.

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## danb

I believe Charlie's out of town at the moment, but I'll chime in with the little I know.. Charlie's F5 is slightly post-Loar.. so call it unsigned or "post-loar" if you will, it's basically near-identical spec to an original Loar, just missing the label, and by inference, Lloyd's stamp of approval. It's a super-fine instrument, spectacular bluegrass chop & tone. Very clear notes, easy to get tone out of it, easy on the eyes.

The "unsigned loar" label often is used to mean that it's pretty much identical to a Loar spec, and either post loar in terms of serial range or sometimes from the 22-24 range but with no signature. Personally, i think that "a Loar" is only "a Loar" if it has the signature.. so that "unsigned Loar" terminology is a little misleading perhaps.

I'd be interested to hear what Darryl & Charlie and other Loar experts think about how the signature process worked.. is it known that Lloyd rejected anything? Were there "seconds" back then? At what point were the labels affixed.. were they signed through the F-hole or outside and then glued in?

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## Brian Aldridge

I don't believe that Loar "rejected" anything, as there really was no need in it. Or if he ever did it was a very rare occasion. The mandolins they were building were all quite good, abeit, some better than others (read subjective). The unsigned phenom was simply mandos in process, built to the exact same specs. Sans the signature due to the fact Loar was no longer there. Is it a Loar? Same animal. No signature. Would it have been signed had Loar still been there? I believe it no doubt would have. BUT he wasn't and it ain't. That is exactly why the term "unsigned Loar" is so fitting to these 13(?) mandolins that fall into that category. This term is not suitable to the true 1925 and later Ferns with the white binding and lacquer. They are a different animal. This is just my humble opinion.

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## AlanN

And humble it is

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## danb

Amazing how much value that little piece of paper adds to the price. To me the most interesting thing about the Loars is the sound.. and that's not unique to signed instruments (though it sure does occur in high frequency on the signed ones.. I haven't met a "dog loar" yet, though I've heard the occasional rumor). 

Loar signed instruments span from serials 70281-80416.. and there are quite a few "leakers" after that period that have some or all of the hallmarks of the Loars. 85370 is an interesting fern with ivoroid binding (the overspray makes it look a little funny in the pictures)... There are many other examples.

The fact that the Loar instruments were at the time a commercial flop goes a way toward explaining some of the "post-Loar Loars" in my view.. extra production could easily have been shipped later. There are many examples of "obsolete" designs coming out later, such as F4 #11051, which is a teens style F4 with an 'aughts style (orville label/3 pointer) peghead inlay. 

In my mind, the source of the market value of the Loars come from the fact that they have extremely detailed provenance and a long history of being considered the very best.. coupled with the fact that there are so few of them.

As far as value in tone/beauty for the dollars, the ferns & unsigned Loars have had a great big bump lately, and there are great ones being made at the fraction of the price new under Charlie's chisel these days

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## mandophil(e)

What about the sound? In my very limited experience with vintage F5's, I've had a chance to play an "unsigned Loar", signed Loars and a couple of Ferns. The "unsigned" is completely Loar-like in sound, and totally different than the Ferns. It shares the darker, more complex tones that the Loars have (no offense intended to Fern owners/lovers).

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## Darryl Wolfe

Brian has summed it up. The terminology is informally assigned to those instrument that look and feel and sound like a Loar.

One other thing to mention is that this group of instruments usually has the flowerpot inlay. Generally speaking anything post Loar is a fern, so the presence of the flowerpot says Loar Loar Loar. There are however a few post Loar instruments with a Fern that could qualify as "unsigned Loars", but the verbal label or moniker is not usually assigned to them.

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## f5loar

And then there is that extermely rare batch of Fern Loars.
Almost in a league unto their own. More Loar than Ferns these babies seemed to have been Loar's vision of what the F5 should become.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Spoken as only the owner of a Fern Loar could say

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## 76547

f5loar & f5journal, 
I am glad you cleared all of this up for me. #I still get confused when people discuss Loars, Ferns, unsigned, signed, f5's etc. 

Thanks

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## uncle ken

I wish some of you Loar owners would participate in the Mandolin Project. I would love to hear the sound of some of these instruments to go along with the nice pictures.

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## Brian Aldridge

Aren't the "unsigned" Loars more rare that the Fern Loars?

----------


## mandophil(e)

I've heard there's 13 of them. Don't know if that's true or not. I also heard they're all pretty good sounding instruments, even compared with their signed brothers.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I have 18 Fern Loars and 7 "unsigned Loars" accounted for. #There are numerous "in between numbers" that would put the unsigned potential mandolins in the range of about 18-20. #The main key to the unsigned Loars is the Factory Order Number. #They possess the 11985 and 11896 FON's.  #December 1, 1924 signed Loars are FON 11985, and obviously 11896 FON mandolins were built before December 1 1924. #The true Ferns that display post Loars attributes begin with FON 8231, a whole new FON system.

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## mitch simpson

Actually, the unsigned 81290 F-5 is incorrectly listed as having the factory batch number 11986. I owned that mandolin for a couple of years and it was stamped 11985 also. It must have been misread early and has assumed to be ever since then. I have owned 3 of of the known unsigned Loars and have found them to be completely equal to all of the signed ones that I have had.

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## Charlie Derrington

You're right, Mitch...

It's 11985. And they are all equal in every respect except one....... that signature label.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I corrected that...so I guess this means that the unsigned are all presumably FON 11985

----------


## f5loar

It's not the meat you use but the sauce.

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## Brian Aldridge

unsigned 82369 has a FON of 11985

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## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks Brian. #This is an excellent example of unsigned mandos. #82369 is a flowerpot with the "unsigned Loar" FON/stamp number and 82348 and 82427 are both Ferns with stamp 8231

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## Brian Aldridge

82427 was my first old F5. What a nice mandolin it is. A totally different animal than 82369 though.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The entire situation above proves that serial numbers are assigned late in the construction process,....and that batches can get mixed up in their relative stage of completion prior to assigning the serial number. Hence, "unsigned Loars" and occasionally a "28 serial number that looks, feels and sounds like a '25

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## danb

Here's #73682, June 1923. No day on the signature label. Very nice instrument, the first with the July 9 batch features.

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## danb

Back..

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## mandoryan

I just looked at those pics at the Archives and that is one pretty mandolin! Beautiful specimen...

----------


## johnwilson

What are the features of this group other than the triple side binding?

Thanks

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## f5loar

Fantastic, mind blowing,bone crushing,mastertone bashing, incrediable sound with power. As Big Mon said of this batch "She's never let me down"

----------


## Yellowmandolin

I know this is an ignornant question, but what is the deal with Virzi labled mandolins? Whatever they are, are they still used today?

----------


## Brian Aldridge

scroll down to virzi 


 # http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/faq.html

----------


## pdlstl

1,000th. post of this thread

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## Yellowmandolin

Thanks, Brian.

----------


## Brian Aldridge

you're welcomed yellowmandolin. As to your Q are they still used today; There are two builders that I know of that offer them as options. They are Lynn Dudenbostel and Randy Wood. I am sure there are others that I am not aware of.

----------


## evanreilly

Rigel and Doug Woodley have offered the Virzi as an option.
Here is the Doug Woodley monster Virzi:

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Orig Virzi that I removed and glued back together

----------


## FrankenMouse

Very cool! What's the actual size (diameter) of the virzi?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I dont recall at the moment (since I'm actually at work  

, but somewhere around 4.5 to 5" oval in shape  )

----------


## FrankenMouse

Ah, so the photo is more or less actual size. Very wide grained spruce on the virzi. (Or at least I assume it's spruce.) I wonder if that was by design, or just chance...?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

chance...another one I have is tighter grained spruce. The legs are spruce too, and very crudely constructed

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

They are oval...4-1/4" x 4-15/16" (found a scan of a plan)

----------


## Ward Elliott

I've got a question for all you Loar fans. How thick is the ivoroid binding on a side bound Loar? I've got .060 and .090, one looks too thin the other too thick. Thanks for any help.

----------


## HoGo

They are actually egg shaped rather than oval. With the larger diameter oriented towards the neck. They were probably shooting for 5" but the edges got sanded round and maybe that's why that one ended 4 15/16" long.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Ward, you are absolutely correct. Bindings along with other trimmings such as the pickguard were 0.070 incremental. Possibly these were actually in millimeters at the time, since they were likely imported. Other details such as the width of the white and black for the w/b/w are also hard to duplicate. Most any white/black or triple binding laminates are too thin regarding the white/black. The actual thickness was well over the standard 0.020 available today. I have a nifty router jig that I got from Don McRostie that allows accurate trimming of binding. Stew-Mac decided not to market the device though. I suspect because of the inherent danger associated with it. I've had no problems, but I wouldn't want to be held responsible for it's safe operation. I use it only when absolutely necessary. The device is a clamp down base with spring loaded holder/retainers for the binding

----------


## Ward Elliott

Thanks Darryl,
 # Then maybe my eyes aren't going after all! And thanks for all the photos and info in this thread. To be able to ask the Loar experts of the world a question and get a real answer is an amazing thing. The photos are astounding........Ward

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Ward...

I'll confirm Darryl's observations. .070 it is.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks Charlie...details like this are hard to detect. Unless, like yourself you do actual work on mandos....Say like when you pull some messed up binding off an A-model, and go to carefully replace it.....the 0.060 doesn't make it back to the surface...and the 0.090 is far more than you would ever want to scrape back to the nicely finished sides. You end up in a dilemma trying to get it right without accurately dimensioned bindings

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

One other Loar type 0.070" detail is the two-ply pickguard found on most '23 Loars. #It appears that the 0.070 material worked fine on all their other pickguards until the bound style 5 guard came about. #So..after they bound the 0.070 and sanded it down, the guards was not stable enough/too thin. #So they reinforced it with another indented layer on the back. #The guards are usually about 0.055-0.060 on the bound layer and they are reinforced with 0.070. #They promply turned around and ordered thicker plastic which generally appears on the single layer '24 Loar guards. #These are in the 0.090-0.100 finished range.

My repro guards (and most everyone else's) start out at 0.125 and I take them down to about 0.110-0.115. #The materials available today are much softer and generally will not work well dimensioned to any less.

----------


## Ward Elliott

In this case I'm just trying to match the look on my own new mando, so I can just scrape it down flush. I'll leave the Loar restorations to Charlie, thank you!...Ward

----------


## JimW

Hey Ward, are you trying to make my new Mandolin look like a loar?  

Jim

----------


## Ward Elliott

I'm trying Jim, I'm trying! I got the body marinating in Loar sauce right now.

----------


## Spruce

OK, here's some new fodder photos...
I really like these pics....

#75691

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## Spruce

#75691 top...

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## Spruce

Red Maple?

----------


## Spruce

Pearwood....

----------


## Spruce

Dark finish, no?

----------


## mandopete

> Dark finish, no?


......and the scroll looks weird too!

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## mandoJeremy

Yeah, whatever!

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## Charlie Derrington

Great pictures, Bruce.

In B&W the true artistry of these treasures really shines through.

Charlie

----------


## HoGo

Were all headstocks veneers made of pearwood? The Monroe's Loar headstock always appeared to me too light in the place where the "Gibson" logo used to be when he sraped it away. I was told by someone that old Gibson banjos were all black dyed wood on headstocks, not ebony and wondered whether mandolins were done like this, too. 
Here is the pic.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I believe you are correct HOGO. They, like the banjos appear to be dyed pearwood. It is quite soft and chips very easily when removing bushings. It is also very thin and laminated to what appears to be maple. The inlay goes clean thru the pearwood, so what you are seeing on Monroes mando is maple of the neck, or the material that is under the pearwood. I have heard that they used india ink, or a similar product to dye them. On the Loars you can see a distinct blueish hue to the color that makes me think this is the case. Email me if you have a higher resolution file for that photo

Thanks
Darryl

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## HoGo

Spruce posted this pic originally. The color seems to be too dark for maple. There is still the shape of the loop of the capital G visible, which means that the brown wood is not the neck wood but one of the laminations. Somewhere I read that they used crossgrain lamination. If my memory serves it was in the Mike Nelson's F4 plans.
Do you know what did they replace it with after the peghead repair? Ebony? Might be the only Loar with ebony headplate.

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## Charlie Derrington

Nope. I used pearwood.

Charlie

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## Tom C

That's a good typical example of how un-perfect loars are. Sloppy gibson logo, binding work not great at least around scroll. Don't forget these were made in a factory. But I'd take 1.

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## HoGo

Charlie, you missed the chance to raise its value by making it the Big Mon's Loar with exclusive genuine EBONY headplate.

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## HoGo

Tom, the scrolls were not always perfectly bound but the curves are generally well balanced which is problem to way too many current makers. Some of the Loars are, however bound very nicely. IMO, I'd rather see imperfect binding on a prefect scroll than a perfect binding on a sloppy scroll. And I find the old logos very tasteful handwork. What looks sloppy is the chipping varnish.

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## Darryl Wolfe

HOGO, let's not forget that the picture was take20-30 years after he scratched out the inlay with a pocketknife

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## HoGo

That's possible, Darryl. But it seems too dark even for 20 years seasoned maple. The wood of the top is much lighter than that and I heard he scraped the varnish at the same time as he did the inlay. Pearwood can be very similar in structure to a maple, only darker. 
The story about the banjo headstocks went that they were not routed for inlay but cut with jewellers saw to accept the inlay. Maybe they cut through one layer to accept inlay and added another to gain thickness... Just my speculation.

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## GTison

I always wanted to see what shape of pick he used. #(at least sometime) #Is that the original fingerboard? #The little step in the fingerboard extention at the 22-23rd fret, seems to be cut deeper making it look more pointed. #I've never noticed that. #Check those big wheels on the bridge, where'd those come from the 50's? I'd love to have a print of that one.

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## evanreilly

That is the famous picture of Bill's mandolin from Life magazine. There were several pics of Bill as well in the article, if I remember correctly.

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## Darryl Wolfe

That's what I meant by clean thru the pearwood. I have some original Gibson peghead overlay drawings that indicate that this is the case. Of related note is those brass peghead template pics I posted earlier in this thread. One can speculate that they were used for cutting the thin pearwood out with something similar to an exacto knife. The template is sized without the binding. The templates had pin holes for tuner and truss rod locations along with the locating pins for the overlay itself

----------


## HoGo

They didn't have any Dremels and high speed routers back then. The knife or saw method seems reasonable.  Another related thing is the flat spot issue. You said it was a flaw in the template but how big the error should have been to be visible after all the sanding and scraping of the roughly carved plates? Their machinery was not anywhere close to the today's precise duplicating routers to copy such fine details. I assumed, they planed the joined wedges flat and thicknessed them and sometimes got a bit under the minimal thickness and the sanding guy didn't sand it completely rounded.

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## danb

Charlie- when you repaired Bill's mandolin, how much of the peghead was new? Did you save the inlay for the "The" and the flowerpot? 

Out of curiosity, do the Master models you make today have the "dowel cross-section" like this one to protect the curl?



Image from Frank Ford's Frets.com

----------


## Spruce

_"Email me if you have a higher resolution file for that photo"_

I think I robbed that pic from The Mandolin Archive, Darryl...

Here's another pic of the peghead that Jon Sievert came up with from his wonderful collection, and used here by permission.

There's _gotta_ be a great high resolution straight-on shot of the pre-restoration peghead kicking around somewhere. #

Anyone out there have one?

----------


## Tom C

I thought only the back of the headstock was pear wood. But the above explanations work for me.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

OK..this one is not a guessing game. #Here is what appears to be a nice July 9, 23 Loar. #I can't remember where I got these. #Can anyone identify the mando? The shape of the burst on the front, and the bold curl on the back are a good starting point

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

next

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## Darryl Wolfe

next

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## Darryl Wolfe

final

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## Charlie Derrington

I'm probably wrong, but the back looks like one of Ken's. I also think I remember he June being in a red case. Maybe not.

Maybe he'll chime in. 

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I have some new pics of that one....not it. Charlie, could it be Ricky's

----------


## Charlie Derrington

I think Ricky's is lighter in color, and I also think his has a slab back.

Charlie

----------


## Ward Elliott

I've got another binding question if you don't mind. On some Loars, there are no black/white stripes under the fretboard binding, instead a ledge is routed for the binding, leaving a little strip of ebony underneath the binding. But I've seen photos of Loars that do have a black/white stripe under the fretboard binding. Can someone tell me which way the sidebound Loars were done? Thanks!

----------


## f5loar

Darryl and Charlie, for certain that is a July 9th and it is 73980. Not many of those around with red cases and the stain, grain and inlay pattern matches perfect to photos I have of 73980.

----------


## HoGo

I've seen only triple side-bound Loars with the same binding scheme on the sides of the fretboard and peghead. The double side-bound Loars were bound with white, not ivoroid, and the black line was probably added as a black veneer under the white bound board or maybe B/W binding was used. They have also double side-bound headstocks. David Mclaughlin's mandolin is a good example of the double binding... There are some good pics of that mandolin somewhere around page 30 of this thread.
The fingerboards were most probably not routed the way you describe.

----------


## Ward Elliott

Thanks HoGo,
  Those photos definitely help.

----------


## Ken Waltham

Hi guys. I've been away.
That's not the July 9 I used to own, but, Tom, mine was in a red case, from the first owner.
Very nice F5, that one. Also, mine was closed loop pattern.
Ken

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks Tommy, that was one of the several numbers I had in mind for it

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

enough of the Gibson price increase stuff..here's a newly found Fern Loar that presumably will be for sale soon
March 31, 24. #Serial number has been changed, we'll comment further on that later

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

next

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## Darryl Wolfe

next

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## Darryl Wolfe

next

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## Darryl Wolfe

next

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## Darryl Wolfe

last

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## ronlane3

Darryl,

Very nice pictures. Of the ones that have been for sale lately that I have seen pictures of this one is head and shoulders better looking. So if the others are $100 - 130K each, then what's this one going to go for ?? $150K?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Very hard to say..the ones at Elderly and Gruhn's haven't moved....so the price must have stabilized some

----------


## mandoJeremy

To me that is the most perfect color on a mando! Where was this one found?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I don't know much yet and can't say the rest. It apparently is another pass down thru a few people in the family. For some reason the serial number appears to have been erased and then put back in thru the f-hole in ink. I suspect there is a one digit error in the number as it was reapplied. There doesn't appear to be any shadyness to the situation

----------


## evanreilly

Skinner's is going to auction off another 'mint' Loar at their October auction. They have raised the price bar every time they offered a Loar mandolin at auction.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Hey all, I was a bit assumptive in stating that the serial number on this Fern Loar had been erased and reapplied. Upon further examination and discussions with the owner, we find that it has not been erased. The existing serial number is in pencil like it should be. The handwriting is different and somewhat odd, but there is no evidence of alteration. The second digit of the number however, does not make chronological sense. It could be the original intended factory number but moreover it appears to be simply a factory mistake or brainlapse. Remember that the serial number is under the label. What would happen if you glued the label in, but forgot to transcribe the serial number on it first?

----------


## danb

Various Mandolin Archive updates are nearing completion, in the meantime I finally got aroudn to posting all of my good pictures of The Schultz Loar up at the site.

Here's one of the new ones, the rest are at that link..

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## jasona

Nothing distressed about that one, excepting Dan's feelings ever time he thinks about what once was, no doubt

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## danb

Tony Williamson has just listed 73728 (July 9, 1923) for sale here!

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## ethanopia

I like the way he says _ultimate of the ultimate,_ so well put.

Now if I could only play the Jethro break to Back Up and Push like Tony!

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## Don Grieser

It looks like the bridge has been moved back about the width of the bridge on that TW Loar. Or is that something else? I'm sure more than one of you have seen it in person.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yes that is bridge wear

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## 76547

Darryl,

Does the "new" '24 Loar have a Virzi? Could it be 76548?

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## Darryl Wolfe

It has a Virzi and is not 76548

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## f5loar

Most Fern Loars will have the Virzi installed at factory.
There are many Loars with that necessary bridge movement.
Has anyone gotten a price on the July 9 Williamson is selling?

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## danb

$120,000 I think

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## mandopete

Wow - and people think _new_ Gibsons are getting expensive!

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## kudzugypsy

got to play Tony's July 9 Loar and it is wonderful! everything a July 9 is suppose to be. i believe he said he was taking it to IBMA. It has been well played, and the bridge was at one point set wrong, and it probably stayed that way long enough to leave the indent.
i think everyone is waiting for the skinner auction. it will be quite interesting! i'll bet the final bid goes to someone that already has a stash of Loar's. It will be in their better interests to see the mando bid high.

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## kudzugypsy

i have seen that Loar before(photo), i'm sure of it. i distinctly remember the red leather couch and the beautiful sunburst / fern inlay. it was a few years ago. seemed like Laurence Wexer had it.

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## danb

kudzugypsy, I think you're remembering a fern H5, but that sure looks like Larry's couch

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## kudzugypsy

oops dan, check out the classified  
you just dont forget a mandolin like that!!!

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## kudzugypsy

too bad i didnt buy it back then for 1/2 that price! of course i didnt have the money then either

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## Tom C

Since it's out. I got to play the fern loar last week. THANKS LARRY! That will be a memoral night for me -2 Loars in one night. That Fern is just oozing with Loar. I can't afford the Loar but, how much for the couch?

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## danb

This Mandola is the one I bet you saw before..

Fern, March 31, same burst, same couch

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## kudzugypsy

i donno dan, kind of ironic that i remember that photo so well, and then bang, Larry puts up the ad for the exact mando in the classifieds. same mando, same couch, same dealer as i recalled it - 
that mandola wasnt the one i saw - i could tell a mandola from a mandolin for sure. 
i could be wrong, that was at least a few years ago, but it is ironic. that red leather couch has seen some mighty fine instruments!
doesnt matter, its nice to see another mint Loar.

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## danb

ok, no worries. I saw the fern and instantly thought it was the 'dola, so I'm just ascribing my own imperfect memory to others as well to try to justify it I guess 

Here's 72541 in all it's red-couched glory. Thanks to Larry for the fantastic photos!

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## Ken Waltham

Hi guys. That Loar is previously unknown, and is making it's very first appearance on Larry's couch.
MMMmmmm.....

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## Darryl Wolfe

73682 Signed June 1923 with no day noted. First appearance of triple binding on the sides

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## Darryl Wolfe

Back..has the typical quartersawn maple that preceeded the July 9 batch

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's a little known detail that many builders miss. It's the alignment of the frets with respect to the curves of the fingerboard extension. (don't buy a precut Stew-Mac board)

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## Darryl Wolfe

A new mandolin

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## Darryl Wolfe

A Stew-Mac Fingerboard blank

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## Darryl Wolfe

Some Monroe-esque Loar stuff for your pleasure

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## Spruce

_"Here's a little known detail that many builders miss. #It's the alignment of the frets with respect to the curves of the fingerboard extension. #(don't buy a precut Stew-Mac board) "_

The Siminoff boards are very accurate in this respect...

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## onlyagibsonisgoodenuff

> Here's a little known detail that many builders miss. #It's the alignment of the frets with respect to the curves of the fingerboard extension. #(don't buy a precut Stew-Mac board)


Apparently, Gibson misses this detail as well. This is a photo of my 2003 Fern.

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## Charlie Derrington

Yup, it was a choice.

Original board and new/more accurate scale or ... oh well, you know.

Charlie

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## Yellowmandolin

Here is my 2003 Gibson F5-G. #It seems ok to me. # 

On second thought, the 22nd is a little low. Who cares...i'm never going to play way down there anyway...

----------


## Charlie Derrington

It is OK. Just not exactly placed the same as the original '23 spacing.

----------


## Yellowmandolin

Fred, the fret wire on your fern seems a lot smaller then on my F5-G. I don't know what size my is, but is yours extra small?

----------


## onlyagibsonisgoodenuff

The fret wire on my Fern is official Gibson and factory installed.

I had heard that some of the earlier scales were a bit off, but I'm with Yellowmandolin, I get a bit cramped for space even when I get above the 12th fret. I've got pretty large diameter fingers, not to mention they don't like to work in cramped quarters!

----------


## danb

Charlie, are your newer fingerboards adjusted so the frets intonate better on the same scale length? I'm messing around with setup on my '23 snakehead and have been quite fastidious testing it properly, but I can't seem to get the bass and treble perfectly intonated at the same time.. 

are there any issues with the bridge compensations or fretboards not being entirely kosher with modern strings, or the need to bump the bridge back for the slight top settling that occurs in 80-odd years?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> Quote..onlyagibsois....Apparently, Gibson misses this detail as well. This is a photo of my 2003 Fern.


Come on now guys...If I was gonna gig Gibson, I would have done so with my first example pic (a new Fern)...This Master Model is very close

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Dan....

Same scale length...more accurate fret spacing. The originals were only calculated to the nearest 1/64th but I figured the new slots to the nearest thousandth.

You could try setting the intonation at the 18th fret instead of the 12th. That works sometimes.

Darryl, I didn't think you were gigging anybody. I was just letting folks know I agreed with you.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here's an outrageously accurate Distressed Master Model. Great work Charlie.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

next

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## Darryl Wolfe

next

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## Darryl Wolfe

last. All photos courtesy of F5Joe

----------


## Steve Stahl

> Here's a little known detail that many builders miss. #It's the alignment of the frets with respect to the curves of the fingerboard extension. #(don't buy a precut Stew-Mac board)


I can't find any precut fingerboards from Stew-Mac, only slotted unprofiled (rectangular). How would the alignment of the frets with respect to the fingerboard extension be an issue, if you have to cut this yourself?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Good point Steve. It appears that they've dropped them from their catalog. They use to offer the slotted profiled ebony fingerboard for around $22-25 which seems like a great time saver. Same for their profiled neck which used to be about $70 with peghead cut and dovetail cut. It's still available, but IMHO not worth the trouble of building everything else (jigs and dimesions) around it to suit your needs..... it's easier to build a neck to suit what you have

----------


## phynie

That distressed is amazing!

----------


## Yellowmandolin

Darryl, are those pictures from the Showcase? #I tried out a Distressed there this summer. #WOW...

----------


## mandoman4807

Gosh, My Master model is beginning to look like that only after two years. And I am trying to be as carefull as humanly possible  

The beauty of varnish I suppose.


Darrell

----------


## mandoman4807

Oh, and another observation: my Waverly's look older than the Distressed model. Mine are tarnishing very quickly.

Charlie, you are going to have to work on that one.

Darrell

----------


## kudzugypsy

well, we finally get to see some actual pix of a DMM!!

whats up with the "wrong" tailpiece cover?

they really distressed that one convencingly, but like mandoman says, i bet after 5-10 years of good hard playing, a standard MM would rival that one.
they sure are neat, but i dont know about paying $8K more for "authentic" wear and tear.

----------


## kudzugypsy

ok, this is an interesting question. brought on by the last few posts..........
lets just fast forward 10 years (assuming things follow historical price appreciation and/or depreciation models)

you have a used DMM in EX condition
you have a used MM in Good condition

is there any difference??? will the fact that someone paid $8K more for the DMM factor in the price difference with the SAME basic mandolin with natural wear and tear? or will the DMM always carry a premium ONLY because it was a more scarce instrument. I'm assuming that these are both the SAME instruments, (as Charlie/Big Joe have stated earlier) one is just distressed.

what do ya think?

----------


## mandoman4807

> well, we finally get to see some actual pix of a DMM!!
> 
> whats up with the "wrong" tail piece cover?






Are you talking about the goldish hue on the tail piece? It was probably the deliberate attempt to tarnish (age it). This is happening to my turners in just two years. Although, my tail piece looks like new.


Darrell

----------


## mandoJeremy

I think he is talking about the wrong engraving and I think I remember Charlie saying something about some of these having this tailpiece because some of the Loars have the wrong tailpiece cover. I guess the original was lost over the years.

----------


## HoGo

Great work, Charlie. That one looks very accurate. The headstock scroll is MUCH nicer than all the masters I've seen.
First I thought the small pic wasn't a recent MM because of the shape of the side buttons at the 15th fret, but from the pic of the distressed I see that they corrected the shape of these details. The NAMM Distressed MM had those large buttons which really did not correspond with any Loar.
When did you change these? And are there on the entire line of F mandolins, or only for MM's?

----------


## oldwave maker

On a recent midwest road trip to an undisclosed location near bobs country bunker, I got this shot of 4 old loars and an old wave, wave was wending its way to ireland, loars gettin fixed up by a greencard carrying foreigner 'of exceptional talent', according to his INS document. they got that right! dark one in back was a 24 fern

----------


## onlyagibsonisgoodenuff

I just wanted you all to know, it wasn't my intention to "Gig" Gibson (whatever that means), I just wanted to point out that even though the current crop of Gibsons are as historically accurate as they have been, there was a difference in that fret spacing which f5journl pointed out. In fact, some time after my post I began to think it might be due to the new and improved scale. 

My opinion of Gibson should be evident if you only consider my username. The Fern I have now will remain in my possesion until my widow decides to sell it.

----------


## HoGo

I wanted to say that it is much nicer than any of the sidebound new masters I've seen. They used to have kinda shorter inside cut of the scroll and the CNC cut binding didn't look right too.

----------


## mandoman4807

> Originally Posted by  (HoGo @ Nov. 19 2004, 07:06)
> 
> Great work, Charlie. That one looks very accurate. The headstock scroll is MUCH nicer than all the masters I've seen.
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ on that one. Check out the photo below of mine, dated March 22, 02. It is as good as it gets!
> 
> 
> Darrell


There it is&gt;


Darrell

----------


## mandoman4807

HoGO,

I now see what you are talking about. The cut on the new master(above), is tighter and smoother.


Darrell

----------


## mandoman4807

A larger look!  Darrell

----------


## GTison

I think both pictures may distort the headstock scroll cut. the above seems a little short and a little narrow. Which has been a difference with the nashville models. Maybe some Loars are this way. But a good straight on view would help. (DarrelS sounds like you are baiting here). ( Incidently my fern has a kinda flat side to the body scroll which has occured in loars and ferns also, ... just an difference in each mandolin and it's kinda neat.)

----------


## kudzugypsy

i have to agree with HoGo, mandoman, the previous MM's had the headstock scroll too big. to me, this messed with the beautiful symmetry that the original loars had. hard to tell from the off angle shots.
its not about the cleaness of the scroll, but the size. with the single bound pegheads, this really sticks out to me.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

OK..no arguing. #Charlie is well aware that the CNC'd cut for the large scroll on the peghead didn't turn the corner quite enough compared to the originals. #This is a minor detail, but they have gone to the trouble to correct it on the DMM pictured. (I refer to this as "the binding mitre points to the right, not upwards). Of more important note is the absolutely perfect flowerpot and script. #Charlie and Company should be commended for their attention to detail. #As with anything, perfection comes with time.
Note original pictured here and how accurate the DMM is.

----------


## kudzugypsy

mandoman, notice how your MM has the "updated" flowerpot.
why did gibson do this on a reproduction?? i like it better though.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here's another example (courtesy of Elderly) #This is 73725 the one above is 73747, both July 9, 23. #Note how Charlie has the dirt and base for the flowerpot darker like they generally are....the script well within the slight variance they had and the scrolls are as good as they get.

----------


## mandoman4807

So now I get it! The standard production Master Model is not intended to be a loar Copy  

This is what is SO great about this Café, You learn something new every day. 


Darrell

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Mandoman...that's really not fair. I cannot speak for Charlie or Gibson, but I can say that some of my templates for repro parts have very slight deviations to them. When I make a pickguard for a new instrument I charge X. When I make a pickguard for an original Loar I charge 2X. You can't hardly tell the difference, but the deviation isn't there on the one for the Loar.

----------


## FrankenMouse

"the binding mitre points to the right, not upwards"

And on my F4, the final tip of the binding points downward. A cool little detail I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it. Thanks, Darryl!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Good point Frankenmouse..that's a really elegant F4.

Now here is another part of this situation. The pegheads were painted and scraped back off the inlay and binding. On most Loars the binding continues a bit, like Franks, but the paint is generally left on somewhat. See the original above, you can see a hint of the binding under the paint.

----------


## onlyagibsonisgoodenuff

Pointing to the right on the '03 Fern. Is that with the standards of the '23 Ferns?

----------


## onlyagibsonisgoodenuff

Actually, in researching the archives, I found no '23 Ferns, but plenty of '24 Loars. The one difference I noticed between the new ones and the Loar era peghead scroll is the older ones seem to be much more open as you get out towards the tuners. They're both beautiful, though.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Speaking of '23 Ferns..here is a true oddity
Serial Number 71057 (should be dated Nov 1922)
Scroll carving and binding like 1922
Signature Date- February 18, 1924
Fern, like March 1924 mandolins
Guarantee Label (like 1927 F5's)
Parts like 1927 F5's
Dot at 3rd, like 1927 F5's

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Back

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

peghead

----------


## wallflower

I think the peghead scroll on the Loar looks a bit like an appendage that doesn't quite fit with the rest of the headstock. #In particular, the space (or the gap) between the headstock and the scroll looks odd. #I know this is blasphemous (smile). #On the other hand, Fred's Fern scroll looks great! #I guess everyone's perception of things is different.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Absolutely..the Fern Loars varied alot in that area. #I don't think they had quite gotten the hang of triple binding the peghead...check these two out

as bad or worse

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

better

----------


## wallflower

Also, from a practical standpoint, the newer Master Model peghead scroll might be less likely to break off with the little extra amount of wood left between the inside and outside of the scroll. #Maybe...

----------


## Ken Waltham

Darryl; Tell me about this previous picture...
That amndolin looks " real" as far as colour, finish, logo, etc.
What do make of it? Back for a new neck?? But, that Fern pattern should be in the "Master Model" era of Ferns, not even the Guarantee era of Ferns...
What gives with this one? Oh, what about case and hardware?
Ken

----------


## f5loar

Darryl, that Fern on the tree photo is not right. Something funky about the curl binding is not the way it looks. It almost looks like a double exposure there and it looks exactly like the Pickin' Poster Fern headstock. I don't see any variance in those two. That photo was taken with a 1.3 mega camera in the slow mode. Refer to other peghead photos of that Fern for comparision.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

76549 again...March 31, 1924 Fern Loar

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## GTison

Is the fern inlay really that green/blue abalone? I've only seen late 20s ferns and they seem to have a real gold look to them. these almost look like the new models. Is it as it appears?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Yes the Loar period and those just after (up to about 84xxx) were dark green and blue abalone. The later ones have a thinner fern that is more white and has the yellowed lacquer over it..more like this

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here's a nice "Unsigned Loar" This could be yours..just look in the MandolinCafe Classifieds

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

back

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

peghead

----------


## levin4now

this is part of a picture from page 45 of this thread. Looks like the feller is having a tough time getting his hand around the neck. Good thumb placement but...seems like someone would have helped him a bit...

----------


## Charlie Derrington

I owned that one once, Darryl. It is certainly one of the best I have ever had. I believe it's a bargain at the price he's asking and will only increase in value. IMHO

Charlie

----------


## mandoJeremy

Is that one varnish also Charlie? I am sure it probably is but I am curious.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

No..it is the early style soft lacquer as evidenced by the telltale '20's crazing shown here. It's quite possible that there is varnish underneath. I like Charlie, highly recommend this mandolin. Prices like this WILL NOT BE SEEN AGAIN

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Of note on this mando are:
Stamp Number/FON consistent with '24 Loars.
Peg overlay exactly like Dec '24 Loars when they were using up the '22/early '23 overlays.
Binding and woods exactly like period '24 Loar.
Graduations and aesthetics..'24 Loar.
Finish texture..'25/26.
Parts (gold, large bushings) '25/26.
Pickguard..appears Loar period.
Guarantee label..a bit odd, may have master model label underneath (like Monroes did)..if not, an indicator that it layed around a good while before leaving the factory or maybe some slight warrantee work in the 'mid /late 20s. Not a biggie at any rate (the larger bushings are commensurate with the change to the Guarantee label)

----------


## Charlie Derrington

It's most likely lacquer over varnish (under a blacklight the orange shows through). I believe the overspray was done when the sent it back to the factory for something in the late 20s. That's probably (probably, I say, because who knows for sure ??) when they added the Guarantee label.

All I know is.... this mando is an absolute hoss !

Charlie

----------


## Spruce

That type of figured quartered maple under that crazed lacquer/varnish is making it very difficult to walk up the hill to the shop... # 

You said that this mando displays "woods exactly like period '24 Loar", Darryl...

I can't recall seeing quartered Eastern hard maple (that's a guess) like this very often in Loar period instruments--mostly bookmatched or one-piece slab. #
Or, (again a guess) what looks like European...

Is this type of wood common in '24 instruments?

Man, that is one hellova tree. #Look at the graining. #What 16-20 GPI or so??

Guess I need to go take another tour of the Archive and see if this tree makes other appearances, 'cause that's about the coolest look I've ever seen...

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Is the separation of the binding in the scroll (particularly on the back) due to shrinkage, or did they just get carried away when filing in there?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Jim..I think its just the way it's filed.
Spruce..you are probably right..that wood is usually more prevalent in ferns..here are some close examples, tell us what your eye sees..you be 'da man in this department...here is 86104

by the way the unsigned is 82369

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

79835 (Dec '24 signed)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

81290

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Actually I think that's 81250.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Dang Charlie..you're good..(but I guess you should recognize it)
 
My bad..here's the real 81290

----------


## Charlie Derrington

I've played 81290 a lot and it is so danged close to 81250 it's scary.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

As we can see by the binding, coloration (and to some degree the wood) All of these unsigned one shown have Loar looks to them. 86104 is shown for wood comparison purposes and displayed the obvious "Fern era" traits, not those of the Unsiged batch...

----------


## Flowerpot

So please educate me... what are the Fern traits visible in the picture of 86104? Nothing jumps out as being obvious to my not-so-well-trained eye.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

white celluloid binding
slightly thicker/wider binding
longer and more crested ridge at upper center of back
extended heel cap area
slightly smaller scroll button
elliptical shape to entire scroll
shorter scroll ridge length
maroon tinge to stain
more symmetrical/gradient style to the burst (maybe airbrush instead of hand?)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here's a nice comparison of Loar/Fern era. #In this case the Fern (86104 on right) is quite Loar looking, but has the typical Fern scroll and binding..the color is rare on a fern. #Loar is my July 9...yes is those same old pics when some strings were off

----------


## Flowerpot

Yes, I see now, thanks. Some things are easily seen, but others - like the elliptical scroll shape - really depend on the angle to the camera. But danged if that 86104 doesn't look like a Loar on first glance.

----------


## AlanN

Looks like the fern needs to have its bridge moved a touch east.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Alan..yes..it apparently was not set up in that Skinner photo..recent pics show the bridge much further toward the tailpiece and not at angle..etc.

----------


## Ken Waltham

Thanks, that's a great Fern. Actually, it is a little different colour than a Loar in real life, but, it has no red in it at all. So, it has a warm, gentle look, like a Loar might if it was in lacquer. There is a little more orange in the top than a typical Loar, though.
I feel it is the prettiest Fern as far as colour goes, of any I've seen, ....
Except one very special one that used to live in Knoxville.
I'd give my right n** for that one.

----------


## danb

Frank Ford recently sent me beautiful new pictures of Loar F5 74662.

Here's one of them to get you started :

----------


## GTison

I'm just a novice at these things but look at the back of this mandolin. Doesn't that Wood look like the back of Monroes mandolin (to someone besides me). Maybe its just distressed alot.  That flame patern looks similar to me. Very Cool pics. I love this thread.

----------


## Tom C

It seems that on most Loars, the F-holes have a soft edge to them. Like in the shot below from the Mandolin Archive.
I do not see this in today's builders mandos. -Just an obsevation.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

correct..73992

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

different angle

----------


## danb

For all you Loar-watchers out there.. Darryl pointed out to me that I'd missed updating quite a few sets of photos he's posted here. The archives are now caught up, so I should have everything Darryl has posted here at the cafe up at the Mandolin Archive now.

I've also added a little note when you view individual images that shows when that image was added. On very rare occasions, I remove pictures and replace them (usually because new photos are better!). A few people asked me what happened to some old photos of the Schultz Loar that I had deleted to replace with newer faster better ones.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Well...my good buddy F5Loar (Tommy I) came to the Wolfe household this weekend

Here's a little Whiskey Before Breakfast..Murray Mcdavid Bruichladdich 1989 compliments of Mr. Dan B

Mando content..July 9, 1923 #73992 and 74000

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74000 and 73992

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Front

----------


## jasona

Those both one piece backs? They are in fantastic shape, very pretty! Looks like it was a lot of fun too.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

with flash..

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

74000..with morning sun on it..what do you think SPRUCE???

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

With this post..I must make an apology to Charlie and Gibson. This Loar is untouched and has a neck set depth just exactly like the new Master Models are. Notice the significant distance the fingerboard is above the scroll button and the unusually high bridge for a Loar.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Another angle..I forgot to take a shot specifically of this feature

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

another

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The two distinct inlay patterns. #74000 on left with the open style that started during the July batch

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Another "hot" shot showing difference in wood cuts

----------


## mandopete

Stop, stop, Darryl - you're killing us!

----------


## Spruce

_"..what do you think SPRUCE??? "_

Yowee...

Looks like they lightly 'bursted it around the edges 'cause they had a nice piece of maple on their hands that they wanted to highlight?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

couldn't resist

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

A little bit of variance in size of point protectors

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72059 February 8, 1923..Photos compliments of our own F5JOE from this past weekends "BanjoThon" in Knoxville TN

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

72059

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

Oh... the "Lore" of the "Loar"

----------


## f5loar

Not only is the inlay of "The Gibson" different but the flowerpots also show slight variations on a theme. Maybe 2 different pearl cutters at Gibson? It's not that light in real life. The sun brings out the highlights of the fire in the flames to the front. I thought Darryl kept his bridge height low since he no longer plays regular like I do but after a shot of whiskey before breakfast he out ran me on "Big Mon" pretty quick. All I could do was tenor him. He's not forgotten his peak days with the Knoxville Grass. But no matter how hard we try we will never out pick F5Joe on the Bluegrass Stomp.
When ole Joe enters the room I've seen other mandolin pickers get up and leave knowing they can't cut it around F5Joe.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Were not much at smiling...and that goofy look is not the Murray McDavid either

----------


## ShaneJ

Now that's quite a breakfast!

----------


## AlanN

Now, Tom looks like Fred Rodgers to me...It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here's the rest of the head shots..we never looked right in any one pic

----------


## Brian Aldridge

this reminds me that the first time I laid eyes Tom and Darryl, they were sitting behind a table at a guitar show in Nashville, both playing Loars. That was in 1984 or thereabout. This is like deja vu all over again. Course, we were all a bit younger.

----------


## Brian Aldridge

I forgot to ask... is that cheesy grits in the green bowl?

----------


## Bradley

I thought that was SpongeBob in that there bowl....Pass the Bacon Will Ya?

----------


## Michael Gowell

Nice breakfast. #Two bottles of whiskey & no glasses? #You guys are rugged.

----------


## danb

I think we're going to have to ask Adobe to revoke your photoshop license Darryl

----------


## Stanley Cox

I think they were picking and drinking "Whisky Before Breakfast" 

Stanley

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Enough of the whiskey...74000 has a fairly substantial top...but, it is the lightest Loar weight-wise I have ever encountered.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here's a neat little item I sold a while back. What a bummer..

----------


## f5loar

It looks like Loar did more than just tap tune F5s at Gibson. He also had to handwrite the price tags for them!
That's Loar's handwritting on that tag. He wrote left handed and played right handed just like me and Darryl!

----------


## ronlane3

Wow, I have more in common with Loar than I thought. I'm also left handed and play right handed.

----------


## mandopete

Only $250? What a bargain!

----------


## Charlie Derrington

I know you really wished you could be perfect and use the correct hand for both, like me.(My wife is a lefty and also acknowledges that I'm in control around the house, so please don't tell her I was kidding about left-handed people, she might forget that she gave me permission to be the boss) 

Seriously, I'm sure Loar was like anybody working for a medium sized company. You do anything that needs to be done. Heck, if one could pop in at Gibson in 1923, you'd probably see him sweeping up at night.

BTW Aubrey is also a lefty, but plays right-handed. I think Chris does the same.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

No kidding Charlie?...
seriously...I bat, golf and write left handed..everything else (I think) is right handed....essentially anything that takes weird equipment,.. I do right handed..things like forks, pencils and bats I do left handed (except golf that only started 8 years ago)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

another pic for study..73992

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

again

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

last

----------


## jasona

That's in pretty nice condition. Should the felt be so impressed by the bridge and strings though?

----------


## danb

I think that the felt (silk velvet actually) is appropriately impressed (just as we are!).. remember it's been snugly holding a Loar to it's bosom for 80 years

----------


## Jim Hilburn

The bridge impression is in a substantially padded piece of felt. I don't like to see that when the felt is tight to the top of the case with no padding. The top of that case would have to have a pretty good whack for it to hit the bridge.

----------


## Spruce

Hmmm....
#73992 is the Davis plans mando, no?
I'd remember that side wood anywhere...

Sure doesn't look like it has the marker at the 14th fret to me....

----------


## danb

Darryl has been photographing up a storm lately on 73992, more pictures at the link

----------


## danb

As we're on July 9s... here are pictures I've just recieved of a previously undocumented July 9, 1923 #73994

*edit* fixed link

----------


## danb

Back..

----------


## danb

Scroll..

----------


## danb

Bass side.. note the side-facing binding..

----------


## danb

Very clean tuner plates

----------


## Brian Aldridge

Looks like it didn't get finished until 1925 (Color), and isn't that lacquer? Stunningly beautiful.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Yes this example has some slight evidence of holdover. Monroes mandolin displays some of the same traits. It is absolutely a July 9...But the July 9 batch had some odd inconsistencies.

Most of them have a harder top layer to the finish that displays slight crazing. Mine appears french polished, while "F5LOAR"'s 74000 has a slight airbrushed lacquer top coat look to it like this one.

The example above, like Monroes has slightly post July 9 parts on it...pickguard, tuners and tailpiece are more mid 24 in detail.

None of these things are deficiencies or anything like that..they are simply weird inconsistencies that make it difficult to tell what Gibson really did as far as construction timeline. It might even be that the varnish on this batch took 6 months to dry before parts could be put on...who knows

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Yeah, and what's even more strange.........

The top-bound ones from this batch have (for the most part) the correct parts and the standard finish look.

Go figure.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

As usual, Charlie is exactly right. #The top bound July 9's are quite consistent..the side bound batch which is about 250 numbers later is quite odd.

Monroes mando needs a bit of discussion, and maybe Charlie can add some detail..

A few points are:
Old photos with the pickguard indicate that the orig guard was from 1924...white binding, quite wide and longer point at fretboard

Orig finish in neck area looks to be lacquer

portions of finish appear to have the 1927-8 maroon look to it

There is some indication that the orig parts were gold..very hard to tell..but they appear darkish in the old black and white pics..and I believe the TP base is brass

Why does it have a Guarantee label, and is the Master Model label under it

Charlie..inquiring minds...

----------


## Charlie Derrington

You are right on all counts. Definite traces of overspray.

I think it went back in the thirties for some work and had the other label installed and maybe (I say maybe because it's possible the parts were gold plated from the get-go) the parts added. 

There has always been an odd nature to the side-bounds. Why only the July 9 batch (other than the June no-day)? Loar was supposedly out on tour when these mandos were shipped. Did he throw a fit when he returned and found out that some side-bound instruments with a different finish were shipped? Who knows? But it is certainly a large variation within smaller, more easily dated, incremental variations.

Charlie

----------


## mmukav

Great stuff fellas, thanks!  

I really enjoy hearing little details about what went on at Gibson back in the day. I have a copy of Gibson's book '100 Years of an American Icon', and some of the stuff in there is fascinating to me!

----------


## f5loar

Was Loar gone that Monday in July of 1923? I thought he didn't leave for tour until mid July until mid August. No Loars signed in August. The mystery of the reversed binding shall always remain a mystery. You can speculate but we weren't there that day and since it was no big deal when the last person died who did know it went to the grave. I like the "someone screwed it up" theory and did the whole batch that way and they covered it up beautifully. But then you throw in the darn June one and the theory don't work. So June is the proto type, they liked it, tried a batch and then decided they didn't like it so they switch back to the normal front binding.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I like this very simple theory...all Gibson mandolins were routed for 3/16" high by 0.070 wide binding except the F5...it needed to be about 0.100-0.110 wide or deep into the face for the triple binding.

If you accidentally just got done routing and chiseling 20 F5's to the standard dimension of all the rest of the mandolins, I'd put the triple binding on the side..meeting the catalog description and working with the channel I just cut..and go on.

----------


## f5loar

That would still put the June one as a prototype to see if it would pass. So the screw up was done in June when Loar was there overseeing the process. They had the 2nd batch of July's near completion when it happened in June.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I don't agree Tommy..I think the June one was just another "woops" example that happened before the July batch where they did the whole darn group...they did it that way once, so let's do it that way again. #It's also not too far fetched to think one certain individual thought it should be that way. #After all, the triple binding was on the side of the peghead way before it appeared on the face of the peghead. Triple binding on the side requires not change in the routing setup from say an F-4 from the period.#Let's also not forget that it happened again on one mando from the Feb 18, 1924 batch...old Preacher Dewey's mandolin. It's also possible that they were all part of the same FON and done at the same time.

----------


## Ken Waltham

For what it's worth, my June F5 with side binding is the same as my July 9 sidebound, except one thing...
The June binding is taller than the July's was.
I have no way of knowing, and in this kind of thing I would normally deferr to you guys, but, I believe the June is a prototype. They used different, and, I think, standard binding to try out the look.
Things that lead me to this are....
Triple binding on side of peghead. That doesn't appear until July.
Triple bindiing on side of fingerboard. Same, that doesn't appear until July.
Triple binding on side... goes without saying..
And.. slab cut, slip matched back. I can't say with complete certainty, most likely not until the July batch.
As you know, July is some quarter, and some slab backs. But, I don't think slab backs appear before July. I may be wrong on this point... but...

----------


## kudzugypsy

i think darryls theory may be correct. when i worked at gibson in the early 90's, someone screwed up the routing of a bunch of PREMIUM les paul tops....the high grade flamey ones. so, they made a run of les paul studios (the cheapest LP) with the flamey tops and transparent finishes to salvage the run. just a one off situation, but it fits that that could easily happen. you wouldnt know til you went to put the binding on and said "oops".

----------


## kudzugypsy

are there any color pix of monroes mando before the early 50's pocket knife episode?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Check out this unique little engraving touch on 73994

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Kudsu..I'm not aware of any old color pics of Monroes mandolin. I would certainly love to see some. I've not seen any prior to around 1957 or so. What is needed is something from the late 40's or maybe even the early 50's.
What's needed is photos during the period this photo was taken. The mandolin has the scroll, pickguard and Gibson intact

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Like maybe one taken on this day...remember, nobody cared about the mandolin then. Notice the strap....a real good way to lose your scroll

----------


## f5loar

Which brings us to the question "Was Monroe the first F5 picker to put the strap on the big scroll?" I think so but open for photos predating when he first started to do 
it which was around 1953. I think he did it because after loosing the top scroll piece the rope strap kept sliding off up there so he figured out the big scroll would hold the strap better. Any photos of pickers doing the scroll strap hold pre '53 welcomed!

----------


## kudzugypsy

ahhhh, another great discovery! i bet that is exactly what happened. 

neccesity is the mother of all invention

i still used the old headstock cord on my old martin d-28, i just cant put myself to drilling a strap button in a pristine old martin.

----------


## danb

OK, here are a few from what I think is my single best ever photosession.. John Reischman's February 18, 1924 Loar f5 #75327

I'm going to do some nice big prints of this one!

----------


## danb

Here's the full frontal:

----------


## danb

Some scroll..

----------


## danb

Nice blue tint in that flowerpot inlay

----------


## danb

His Roayl Lloydness..

----------


## danb

This detail shot is by request from spruce..

----------


## Brian Aldridge

wow, the color of is John's Loar is like an early '23, not dark like a typical Feb 18 1924. Has it been refinished? If so, they nailed the early '23 color.

----------


## danb

My pictures are a tiny bit oversaturated still, but it does have a distinct reddish-orange tint..

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I agree, and questioned Dan about the lighting. My pics appear much darker (I never seen it in person)

----------


## danb

Here's a favorite detail.. note how the frets on the extension line up with the binding..

----------


## danb

Yes.. those are bright sunlight photos.. but I think the color is right (maybe just not the brightness). Outdoor lighting is quite a bit warmer in color..

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

note the "1924" bulge on the left side of the extension...'23 are straighter more parallel to the right side (up there around 25-29th fret. Dan, which one is that?

----------


## danb

July 9th.. 73728

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I've just reviewed my photos of that mando...finish is '24ish, pickguard is 24ish...another July 9 anomoly

----------


## danb

OK, here's April 12, 1923 F5 # 72853

----------


## danb



----------


## danb



----------


## danb



----------


## danb

This is the only one I know of with an apparently original monogram on the tailpiece cover

----------


## danb



----------


## danb

My pictures of 71634 were in worse lighting..

----------


## danb

Back

----------


## jasona

$250? Hell, I'll give you $300 for that old piece of junk!

----------


## Tom C

"old piece of junk"? -....It was new at one time.

----------


## danb

Hey folks, help me out here. Would any of you like to see a coffee table book of Darryl's notes and my photos  It's getting closer...

----------


## Scotti Adams

Hell yea

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Looks like the April is needing a refret already. Damn that wire that only lasts for 80 years. 

Charlie

----------


## danb

Hey Charlie, it frets pretty good.. for now...

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Yeah Dan, but look at the grooves in the picture with the price tag. Tsk, tsk.

----------


## danb

Heh. I hear ya, but for now it "notes good" to quote another mandolin player

----------


## futrconslr

I would be afraid to refret it. What are the original frets worth a couple grand per?

----------


## evanreilly

Yeah.... I've heard ole William Smith Monroe make that 'Notes Good!' comment about very few mandolins.....

----------


## ShaneJ

Dan, put me on the list for a coffee table book. When will they be available?

----------


## danb

All y'all help me talk Darryl into it?

----------


## ShaneJ

I'll employ the method my kids use.....

"Come on, Darryl! Please! Please! Please!!!"

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The first step will probably include digitizing some of my 100,000+ 35mm pics...with that and Dans stuff we could do it right

dgw

----------


## JimW

Darryl, with that many 35mm shots, if you have the negatives to all those, I would suggest a negative or film scanner. The resolution of most of these will rival today's digital cameras. Plus, it would be easier than trying to scan that many 35mm prints I would think. Anyway, sounds like a neat project. 

Jim

----------


## johnwilson

It doesn't seem that many years ago I joined others in persuading Mike Longworth to write a little history book - only to have him return the favor by writing asking me to draft a letter with a sales forecast for his publisher. 

If I could bend Darryl's ear today, I think I would suggest the F-5 Journal should be published on DVD(s). This is the only way I can imagine keeping all those wonderful photos in a large, high resolution format. Not only can we have photos of each and every instrument, but the DVD offers us the ability to accompany the pictures with sound files of the instruments, players, builders - you name it. And you can still print the pictures you want to sit on the coffee table!

----------


## danb

Here are some great new pictures from Lowell Levinger of July 9, 1923 Loar F5 #73723

----------


## danb



----------


## danb



----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Very nice...I had not seen this one. This instrument has a transitional look to it. It has the orange coloration, well defined grain lines in the top and slightly prominent bindings and scroll work that are usually associated with the April mandolins...yet the edges of the sunburst are of the walnut color associated with July and December 23's.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

In my opinion, the height of the Loar period. (along with the Dec. 11 batch)

Charlie

----------


## mandopete

> Some scroll..


Dan,

This scroll from JR's Loar makes a great computer screen background!

----------


## f5loar

A coffe book is better since you can take it anywhere without electricty and still look at it in daylight. Getting the info and the photos is not the problem. The problem is the $$$$$. If every comando kicks in $100 towards the cause and a signed limited edition copy of the first printing is the reward it could fly easily. I'll kick in $500 for my first 5 copies.

----------


## ShaneJ

I'd kick in $100 for that.

----------


## danb

I asked John about the color in the pictures of his Loar. The ones I posted here at first are too orange. The ones at the archive are close to color accurate as far as he can see.

----------


## johnwilson

Unfortunately, I don't think you're any where close on the price of the book. I'm afraid what everyone wants is likely to cost something more like a set of encyclopedias! 270 full page front, full color pictures, 270 full page, full color back pictures, 270 full page, full color headstocks, scrolls or other detail pictures. Any how could we leave out the 270 Loar signatures?
Coated paper, hardcover, perfect binding...whew. 
So far I've printed the 100 or so pictures I wanted IN FULL COLOR on 80 lb. 8 1/2 x 11 glossy stock which cost $12 a rheem and I've spent $102 on ink and $18 for the binder and protective plastic sheets. It's pretty impressive but if I print one more signature I'm going to be sent away for a full mental evaluation!

----------


## Tom C

And we want the 4/C pics to be liquid laminated. I think this would be a floor book and would be great.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

johnwilson...no kidding? I'm impressed with your interest in the subject

----------


## f5loar

I thought we are talking "coffee table" sized book not a little 8X10. They start at 9X10 and go up to 11X17.
Now if you got a good front and back on one page,the detail shots of the headstock,scroll,signature,serial no. on the back of that page that is only one page per Loar.
I don't think photos of 270 Loars are out there yet.
Go with what is out there along with reading information in big print so grade 3 school kids and seniors can read it and you got a nice easy to handle 250 page book. 
Up my order to 6 signed copies.

----------


## f5loar

Sorry, typo, meant to say they start at 9X12!

----------


## Spruce

Check out the quality, layout, and prices of the full-size Strad and Amati iconographies as a reference...

I haven't checked lately, but man are they up there $-wise...

And in _very_ high demand....

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I put this here instead of starting a new thread..but

Here is the inlay on my 1925 A-2. It's a fairly obscure pattern that I've seen only a few times. I noticed this weekend while picking it some that it is cut entirely from one piece of pearl....and it combines both open technique and closed technique whereby you have to drill holes to insert the saw blade when cutting...very very strange. The two std patterns on Loars are either one way or the other.

----------


## danb

Compare 76547.. open pattern

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## Darryl Wolfe

closed pattern

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## danb

Closed #2

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## good_ol_al_61

Darryl and Dan:

You guys make these mandolins "come to life" with your descriptions. I would have never thought to look for these subtlties when looking at older mandolins. Thanks for the free yet valuable education. I guess I'll have to go to more yard sales and take a closer look at instruments this year.

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## mandopete

Dan - that is one sick close-up on 76547

Is that Reischman's Loar on #2?

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## danb

Mandopete, yes and yes 

The photoshoot I did of JR's Loar at Wintergrass worked out very well I thought. I'll make nice big photo prints of those available online somwhere soon, several of those are going on the wall here when I get them back from the framer

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## mandopete

Yes, those shots of JR's Loar are wonderful. I have the one you posted of the scroll set as my computer background.

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## Don Grieser

I love the look of JReischman's peghead where it's obvious that thing has been re-strung a few thousand times. More utilitarian than museum piece.

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## danb

OK, here's a batch of photos I took at wintergrass of "Scratcy" aka "The Shoplifted Loar" aka F5 79833. First off, here's a macro shot of the guarantee label outside of the instrument.. recall that this was steamed off to reveal the pencilled-in serial number a little over a year ago..

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## danb

Here's my shot of the Serial Number that is now revealed with the label off:

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## danb

Scratchy is pretty close to immaculate. Gorgeous example of the late Loars with the dark edging to the finish, show here on the scroll

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## danb

Back view of the scroll

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## danb



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## danb

Top, showing some silking figure on the bass side. Spruce- what could you tell us about the cut of wood and the species from that figure?

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## Spruce

Scratchy is such a cool mandolin....

Well, the topwood on Loars is a pretty interesting can 'o worms...

It's actually pretty rare to see a top with a bunch of silking, one of the reasons being that a _lot_ of those tops are extraordinarily off-quarter.
I'm talking like this: #/////////

Or even more, in some cases....
A lot more...

Off-quarter wood gives a very dull appearance under varnish--a look that the modern eye is not really used to.
Modern makers are pretty anal about quartered wood these days (as well they should be), so most mandolins made these days, whether by factories or custom makers, display _lots_ silking and spider-webbing, regardless of spruce species.

The Loars, or at least quite a few of them, look "washed-out" and rather boring under varnish, the result of being made from off-quarter wood.

By the way, I know of at least 2 very well-known mando makers who have been building with wood that is equally off-quarter, because the other attributes of the wood (age, density, etc.) outweigh in their mind the "flaw" that the wood is severly off-quarter...
If it was good enough for Lloyd, it's good enough for them....

I would love to be a fly on the wall in the woodroom at Kalamazoo in the early 20's...

Because somebody _really_ wanted Red Spruce in those F5s...

And they were willing to sacrafice a _lot_ to get that species on those instruments...

Mismatched and off-quartered wood is common, and all fingers point to the Loar tops being constructed from a pile of 1x6 Red Spruce lumber that _was_ selected to be relatively runout free.
But the aforementioned "flaws" didn't seem to bug them enough to not use the tops they wound up using...

There's a very interesting story behind this decision lurking out there somewhere...

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## danb

OK, ginormous photo, but it's really needed for this detail..

check the bass side on this one too spruce..

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## Spruce

Looks to be bookmatched and quartered, with a tad of runout...

Did U get a good shot of the mismatch in Reischmann's...?

One side of that is _very_ off-quarter as well...
I think the bass side...

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## danb

Bruce, do you have any sort of "sample cuts of wood" photos you could share? Reason I ask is I'm looking at the cuts of wood on the tops of Loars etc after some recent chatter with Jamie Wiens.. It'd be really cool to see them here (end shots showing what happens to the grain layout maybe?) in relation to Loars they appear to match?

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## Spruce

Man, that's a tough one with the digital camera I have...
I need to upgrade...

Generally speaking, if you deviate even a couple degrees off of _perfect_ quarter (IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII), and I mean _exactly_ 90 degrees, you start to lose your silking...

That's why in an archtop instrument, you 'll have patches of silking that are stronger than other areas. #The arch, by it's very nature, will start to roll off quarter, and then, as it reaches the recurve, will be on-quarter again...

In a flattop guitar, you might see silking all the way across the instrument....

Again, in a flattop guitar (like the many that you see from 40-50's with off-quarter tops), you might see a whole top that is lacking in any sort of silking whatsoever...

Just like in quite a few of the Loars...

Again, the modern eye doesn't get to see this all that much, with all the perfectly milled wood that is out-and-about....

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## danb

73728's peghead leaning on some of Bruce's blocks at wintergrass:

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## danb

scroll..

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## mandoryan

Really great pics dan! Thanks for sharing.

That's got to be one of the best and cleanest looking pegheads too. It's darn near perfect with the binding and inlay and proportions. Purty...

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## Darryl Wolfe

75844 @ Skinner

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## Darryl Wolfe

back

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## Darryl Wolfe

peg

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## Darryl Wolfe

Dan, how 'bout posting a high res one

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## danb

76779

Face..

Replaced pickguard is pretty easy to spot. Frets also look larger, and fingerboard inlays are not original to Loars

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## danb

Truss rod cover is upside down  

Bushings replaced with 6-sided thingies. The fern itself has greenish pieces in the middle just like 76547

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## danb

The same little harp wingus is on the truss rod cover..

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## danb

Nice Back

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## danb

75884 is a new addition to the Journal and the archives!

This one has the original fingerboard and pickguard

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## danb

Tuning pegs from 2 different tuner batches! Treble side (left) has 3 screws, bass side (right) has 5

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## danb

Beautiful flowerpot, and another upside-down truss rod cover!

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## danb

Another nice back. Heavier curl on the left.

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## danb

All of these pictures come courtesy of David Bonsey of Skinner, Inc. They are both up for auction on May 8th 2005 in Boston, along with a nice F-style Mandolin and Mandola

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## Jim Hilburn

75884 looks like the previous owner had a little trouble figuring out where the strings were.

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## mandopete

Nah, it's a distressed model!

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## danb

OK, Jamie Wiens did some check-up on a theory that came from either Bruce Harvie or Jamie.. we'd been chatting that the cleary visible discrepency in the grain widths of the bass & treble side of John Reischman's Loar (often discussed here) was possibly caused by the cut of the wood.. 

This photoshopped picture sort of shows it, black line showing what I see as the grain orientation on the bass side..

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## danb

If you're a photoshop jockey, try sliding the middle adjuster on "Adjust levels" and you can see the grain edges appear/dissapear more clearly than I was able to show here..

By the way, that's the top of the bass f-hole, picture taken from roughly the scroll...

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## mandophil(e)

I was wondering if anybody has an idea about the number, or percentage, of existing Loars that have Virzi's--I guess what I'm wondering is what percentage were originally made with Virzi's, and how many Loars are out there with them today. Anybody got any idea?

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## f5loar

It's safe to say the majority of the '22 and '23 do not have the Virzi as in '23 you had to pay extra for it but in '24 the Virzi was included no extra charge so the majority of the '24 do have it since most customers at the time did not know what it was and since it was not extra cost why not have it. I've not counted the actual count of '24's that have had it removed but there are dozens.
Some were factory removed when customers complained.

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## danb

A quick unscientific scan of the archive shows me 

 89 Loars marked as having a virzi originally
 80 Loars with Virzi s/n known
 19 "virzi removed" notes in F5s..
 3 "virzi removed" notes in H5s..
259 Loar-signed instruments total
212 F5 Mandolins
 22 L5 Guitars
 18 H5 Mandolas
 6 K5 Mandocellos

327 F5s total (loar signed and otherwise)
470 instrument records in the Loar period 

The certainly "take the edges off", my take it's it's similar to hearing an instrument miked up and using light compression. You lose volume on the "spikes" or the parts where the instrument is "hot", but you do get a very nice even separated tone. Takes the "Bark" off a bluegrass chop in my opinion, but gives you a nicer melody note in the bargain.

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## f5loar

Dan you need to say of those 89 with Virzi how many are '24's and '23's.

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## f5loar

Or is that the '24 count?

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## danb

8 1923s, 80 1924.. (not sure how I had 89 in my count last time)

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## Jonathan James

I'm dying for some new "Loar Pics of the Day"...

Dan?

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## danb

Well that's the trouble with these things, there's only a finite amount of them 

Maybe we'll have some new ones soon from the Skinner buyers..

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## Darryl Wolfe

Check the Ronnie McCoury thread on Gen Mando

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## danb

This 
March 31 1924 Fern F5 #72541
is currently for sale at Larry Wexer's page

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## Jonathan James

Man, that is gorgeous. And ONLY $150K. Wonder what Ronnie's new acquisition put him back...

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## f5loar

That's a steal at that price. Minty Fern Loars are few and far inbetween. It's the old "go find another one" logic.
I know of others for sale but not near that cheap.

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## mandophil(e)

Do Fern Loars command a premium? If so, why? How many are there?

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## f5loar

They are simply put the "Rolls Royce" of the Loar signed mandolins holding a near tie to the famous "resversed" side bound July 9th batch. Only a few dozen made in both batches. The Fern pattern was considered Loars prized possession in his early work at Gibson.

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## avanti

Hey, top bound July 9ths are at least Bentleys.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Come on Tommy...do you have reincarnatable ESP abilities? #Lloyd Loars' personal F5 was a flowerpot. #The Fern Loars are indeed rare, and since it is "fancier" and rarer it can be considered more desirable. #But beyond that a Fern Loar is just another Loar signed F5 mandolin. Given, if all Loars were to dissappear except for one representative example, I would vote for a nice clean Fern Loar w/Virzi. But I wouldn't be voting that way with overall best killer Loar sound at the top of my list.

There is much evidence that the original design for the F5 was intended to be a Fern. #It appears that the design took a while to implement though. #Reasonable assumption would be that they ordered the pre-cut fern inlay from Germany and it took over a year to receive the large order..hence the first Fern inlays in March 24 instead of the mid/late 22 period when the F5 was introduced

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## Charlie Derrington

Darryl..

I'm not so sure that the F-5 was originally planned to be a Fern pattern. The earliest prints I can find have a Flowerpot inlay. These prints are dated 1921. It's more likely that after they ordered the initial run of head veneers, they rethought things and decided the Fern was the way to go.

Charlie

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## danb

Doesn't the first catalog show a fern peghead though?

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## Darryl Wolfe

The first catalog renderings are the basis of my assumption. I have nothing other than that to go on. My only other thought on the subject is that it seems prudent that a new model would have a new inlay or higher level of trim.

The original spec sheet for the "new model" indicates that the rim/back dimensions shall be "same as F4". When it addresses the peghead veneer it specifies "according to drawing", not "same as F4". All of this is very subjective.

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## danb

That catalog image has always made me wonder if there is somewhere a prototype with a fern on the peghead.. that that image was drawn from..

I guess another question might be if they did the catalogs before or after the model was in production!

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## mandophil(e)

So are Fern Loars identical to other '24 Loars other than the inlay? Same dimensions and construction? Did they command a higher price when new?

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## danb

Different peghead yes.. they mostly seem to get a nice brown/orange sunburst with a medium-sized (roughly the light area matches the f-holes in diameter).. have nice woods.. almost all virzis (because they are '24s when that was the default).. they aren't as common as any other batches, so they have an added badge of rarity. The body & construction is the same as far as I know.

The later ferns (post-loar) are lacquered and have a different look to the fern inlay. The Loar ones usually have some green abalone in the mix, later ones start getting more of a pearl to plain white look.

To me there is just something about the combo of that fern inlay and the brown/orange burst that I really like. I'm also a virzi fan..

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## Charlie Derrington

Yeah, I know Darryl and Dan.......

However, those prints give me reason to question my original assumptions. Also, you know how it is, get it built and introduced....we'll deal with the details later.  

Charlie

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## Ken Waltham

I had never really thought about the idea of the Fern peghead inlay being the original intent of the new Master Model F5 before. That is an interesting hypothesis.
You know, given that catalog drawing, and the overlay to be "according to drawing", that could just be.
An interesting thought. I will say, I still prefer the flowerpot, and I think always will. I love the understated elegance, which is what draws me to Loar F5's in general. They are not overly flashy, but have that European, violin type look.
But, seeing what I have over the years, it would make perfect sense to me that Gibson would use up some F4 flowerpot inlays, until the "new" Fern inlays became available for production.

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## danb

The "Roy B Veiock", f5 #72211, from an anonymous submittor

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## danb

A business card from the original owner, still in the case:

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## danb

The front isn't half bad either..

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## Charlie Derrington

Now we're talking !!

Charlie

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## danb

only 2 or 3 years of playing time on that one.. the original owner died in a car accident in 1928, after taking delivery of it in 1926. Another interesting thing about that is the fact that it was signed & dated in 1923, adding more direct evidence to ideas Darryl has expressed that many of these Loar-signed f5s didn't leave Kalamazoo until well after Lloyd had moved on.

Check the condition of the tailpiece cover, among everything else. Eek!

Edit- oops.. I'm mixing up stories between instruments. I have no information about when this instrument was shipped.. sorry for the confusion! I also had stated it was signed 1924.. it was 1923. (slaps self on head)

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## f5loar

As far as Lloyd's personal F5 being a flowerpot he just grabbed the first one that he liked going out the door to tour with the Gibsonians that summer. Sure it happened to be a July 9th but it was not a reversed binding one and there were no Ferns laying around for him to grab. He pretty much had his pick of all of them until December 1924 to be his own Lloyd's Loar. He could have held back any F5 previous to that July 9th one to have as his own.
Why not a fancy gold plated one like they made for William Place? Or he could have done up one Fern in July for his own. I'd think he carried enough weight at that time to get what ever he wanted. 
And Darryl it's hard not to be in support of Fern Loars when you own one. They are special!

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## ronlane3

Very cool. Talk about a dream come true, having your pick of any instrument made in 1923 or 24.

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## mandoJeremy

Dan, that is SO beautiful. It does remind me of some of the current Master Models.

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## mandopete

That buisness card is cool, I feel like I'm watching _Antiques Roadshow_!

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## Darryl Wolfe

F5Loar/Tommy...I hate to keep contradicting you..but Lloyd's personal Loar was not a July 9. It was an FPot Feb 18, 1924 w/Virzi. The serial number will remain withheld by special request, but there is no question as to the batch the mandolin belongs to.

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## Brian Ray

I had the distinct pleasure of playing Lloyd's Loar... I'd say Lloyd did just fine in his selection.

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## mandoryan

Boy oh boy!!! That 72211 is one nice specimen. I would love to play that pretty girl!

----------

Thanks a lot, Dan. I've now got a new drool spot on my tie after looking at your pics. The back of that Veiock loar is really something.

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## f5loar

Oh yes that one. Well he had 2 then.

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## danb

Here's 84469, a 1925 f5. The ink on Lloyd's pink slip would still be drying at this point..

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## danb

This pegehead shows the nice colored abalone in the middle of the fern like the Loars would rather than the later solid white..

----------


## Spruce

_"The ink on Lloyd's pink slip would still be drying at this point.."_

Looks like the varnish is still drying on 84469....

----------


## Philip Halcomb

Just box that one up Dan and send it over...

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## danb

Sometimes it's agony when people send me so many pictures of nice old mandolins

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## Darryl Wolfe

That mandolin is of the premium Fern era. #There have not been many pics of these posted on this thread. #This is actually a '26 era mandolin and the finish is in fact lacquer. #Note that is has larger tuner bushings and white binding throughout. #Some of these, like this one retain the hand engraved, but gold tailpiece, along with the plastic pickguard bracket. #These went away soon after. #If you look at the side view on the mandoarchive site you can see the lower bridge as a function of arching or neck angle and more prominent arching in the upper back. #Additionally, you can detect the slight profile change to the shape of the scroll (there is a little less mass or meat in the 1 oclock to 3 oclock area. The lacquer finish on these is not exactly the way we think of lacquer today. It is much more of a sanding sealer type of lacquer that checks in very small squares

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Certainly is lacquer. Well past (IMHO) the unsigned bunch. Darryl is (as usual) dead on. Start of the "Fern" period. Pretty soon they'll have the typical Fern appointments. I think (big emphasis on "think") that this one would run into late April or May '25. 

A better representation of a transition instrument is 82369. Lacquer over varnish, large bushings, celluloid bracket, flowerpot, etc.


Charlie

----------


## GTison

INTERESTING, the photos of 82369 show the mandolin with and without a dot at the 3rd fret.

----------


## prayerbone

dan, were you saying the guy in the picture roy b veiock the instructor died in the car accident? man thats such a pretty mandolin,sad story though...aj

----------


## Christian

Quote : #I think (big emphasis on "think") that this one would run into late April or May '25. 

That's interesting, Charlie. Would you then consider that all the Ferns with earlier serial numbers (Earl Taylor's, Bobby Osborne's, Ralph Rinzler's, Wayne Benson's), which were considered to be 26 or 27 were also built in 1925, or are they not chronological? I guess the FON also has its importance when it comes to dating these.

Christian Séguret

----------


## danb

Yes, the guy in the picture was the original owner who died quite young in a car accident. Sad story!

My point on that fern being like the earlier ones was the fern inlay itself actually, the green abalone in the middle of it matches the loars better than the later ones.. for example (76547):



And a later one (86104)

----------


## danb

New pictures of f5 #85370

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## danb



----------


## danb



----------


## danb



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## danb

Not a Loar mind you, but certainly has some interesting features. Care to weigh in on it Darryl?

----------


## Jim Hilburn

What's with the tuner shafts being so far down in the bushings?

----------


## ShaneJ

Beautiful! Did they brush on the stain? Kinda looks like it - especially on the top.

----------


## danb

Bigger bushings than the Loars, it's kind of an optical illusion that way

----------


## bluesmandolinman

Dan,
please stop posting these pictures or I will tell my wife that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MY MAS and she will pull out her voodoo doll and punish you

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

This is a very interesting specimen. As you can see it looks nothing like the true Fern posted above with Lloyds pink slip annotation.

This instrument really appears to be a late '22 instrument. This is based on the cut of wood in the back, stain patterning, shape of scroll and the ridge line of the scroll. It also appears to have the very slightly smaller f-holes of the 22's (can't be sure on that one)

Dan and I have been discussing alot of these "odd instruments" and have concluded that certain manufacturing process steps happened in a different order than what we would expect. This is the only answer that accounts for certain combinations present on some instruments. We will report on this as we solidify our opinions on the subject.

Back to the mandolin...It is certainly oversprayed with laquer and has the appropriate binding and parts commensurate with the serial number.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Wish I could look at this one a little more closely.

I can't tell (through the yellow) if the headstock binding is white or ivoroid and it looks as if the body binding is white ??

Again, it's hard to tell, but the whole thing (if period correct) should be white binding.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> My point on that fern being like the earlier ones was the fern inlay itself actually, the green abalone in the middle of it matches the loars better than the later ones.. for example (76547):


I need to clarify/correct Dan a bit here. #There are two distinct fern patterns. #There is the wider more colored pattern which was used on Loars and well on into the later 20's. #Then there is the narrow dainty pattern which showed less and less color during it's 3-4 year tenure. #81xxx-85xxx ferns are identical to the Loar fern pattern. #The narrower pattern is almost always associated with the cleaner/smoother/daintier "The Gibson" inlay shown on the little inset picture Dan posted above

----------


## Ken Waltham

Just one more statement, to totally add to the confusion.
The small inset.. 86104 is mine, and it is, in fact, a "transitional" pattern, unlike others I have owned. It is neither as "fat" as the early Ferns, nor as slim as the later ones. I have owned 87346, and it was slimmer in design, but, no less colourful.
I have seen later ones than that, primarily in the 30's, that are fairly devoid of colour.
87367 was a Fern I had missing it's top leaf, was a 1929 model Guarantee label, and had a super colourful inlay, with blue, pink and green.
Go figure.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I generally agree with Ken, but would only add that there are only 2 distinct patterns. The width of the cut may vary slightly from one to another. This is the case with 86104 which is slightly fatter than others, but it is still the later pattern. 86104 is a bit unusual having quite a bit of color. If you check the "archive", the mandolins following on the whole are far whiter/devoid of color

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> Wish I could look at this one a little more closely.
> 
> I can't tell (through the yellow) if the headstock binding is white or ivoroid and it looks as if the body binding is white ??
> 
> Again, it's hard to tell, but the whole thing (if period correct) should be white binding.
> 
> Charlie


I tend to think that one is ivoroid (on the peghead)..lending credibility to the odd assembly process I mentioned. #We are actually beginning to think the overlays may have be installed (in some cases) after the instrument was finished. #We are almost certain the pegheads were drilled after the instrument was finished (as in varnished, laquered) #There are just too many unexplainable oddities in the process, and weird to our current way of thinking assembly orders make them make sense

----------


## danb

Charlie- check the fingerboard extension photo. You can sort of see it there. Where there is wear, it's white. I think it's the lacquer over the original finish that makes it yellow.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Yeah Dan, I was pretty sure about the body and FB binding. It was the head veneer that caught my eye. I'd almost bet the HV binding was also white.

Charlie

----------


## danb

Yes again 

There are a few tiny wear spots where it's pure white!

----------


## meskalito

I am grateful for all the work that has been done in this thread. I've enjoyed it.

What kind of finish did the Loars have?

----------


## 76547

Hi all,

Back a few pages I see the Veiock loar. Mr. Veiock being an instructor and Gibson agent from New Brighton, PA. It makes me wonder if he was the guy who introduced my grandfather, Chas. Carter - 1st owner of 76547, to the Gibson mandolin. New Brighton is very close to where my grandfather was.

----------


## danb

That's an interesting link Jack.. probably a bit too much of a coincidence to not have some kind of relationship

----------


## danb

F5 #75554, Feb 18 1924 is at Elderly.. previously undocumented, same signature date as John Reishman's..

----------


## danb

Yum..

----------


## danb

It's a good week for documenting new Master Models... more in the works..

----------


## danb

Back..

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## danb

Scroll.. not quite as angular as JR's..

----------


## danb

Here's a nice new photo of F5 #73994 July 9 1924

----------


## jasona

Can you say "mint"? Wowsers!

----------


## mandophil(e)

Dan:

Can you or Darryl explain the comment in the description of #73994 about "holdover featuessuch as the bulge in the fingerboard extension". I'm looking at it versus early '23 Loars, and am not seeing it. Thanks.

----------


## Brian Aldridge

is 73994 lacquered? Looks like the same finish as 82369.

----------


## danb

73994 is just very clean.. it's easy to take a shot from the right angle that hides the typical varnish craze lines, but if you look at this one..



About "holdover features".. We use that to describe a mandolin that shows features of 2 distinct building periods or batches.. the idea being that it was made at one time, and the final set-up or finishing even might have occurred later.. This explains some of the "Unsigned Loars" that have batch numbers or serial numbers from the middle of the Loar period, later tuner types/etc.. Perhaps some of these were built faster than the orders came in, so they weren't built all at once.

So, on 73994..
Darryl notes that there is black in the finish, which is more a '24 feature..
I noticed that the stamping on the tuner plates (flowers etc) looks like the March 24 batch (including Jack's Fern)
The bulge on the fingerboard extension (bass side) is a '24 feature usually.. most of the 22/23 ones are straight on the bass side of the extension..

So anyway, this adds up to a couple of possibilities.. maybe it was partially built during the July 9 batch, finished in '24? Darryl also noted to me at the time that that matches Monroe's on some of the features.

----------


## mandoman15

love that 24 from elderly. Does anyone else do this or am i just crazy, I clicked the "buy it" button just for fun, with no intention of buying it, but it does bring you to a new page where it shows the buyers information and subtotal ect. it's kind of like geting one step closer to owning a loar, this is completely ridiculous, but afterwards, i was shaking slightly. I discovered that MAS sensation pick up and it was cool. i call it a loar buzz.  thankyouy for putting up with my silliness:p

----------


## Brian Aldridge

Look at the long lines of crazing in the finish of 73994 in this pic. 
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4527
Doesn't that look like the same thing as what is going on with the finish on 82369, which is lacquer, in this pic?
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4026

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> Look at the long lines of crazing in the finish of 73994 in this pic. 
> http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4527
> Doesn't that look like the same thing as what is going on with the finish on 82369, which is lacquer, in this pic?
> http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4026


Yes, I suspect a light lacquer coat on 73994. There were many instruments that came out of the factory during the Loar period with it. It is particularly noticeable on the Loar signed mandolas and L5's. This is just a "what if" suggestion, but I think they may have been experimenting with topcoats to speed the drying process. Many Feb 18, 24 Loars have it too.

----------


## mandophil(e)

So does the Loar currently at Elderly look like one of those?

----------


## Glassweb

"Knowledge without experience is pure speculation." - Roberto Tacchi, master Florentine wood sculptor

" I'm just speculatin' on a hypothesis... I know I don't know nuthin'. " - Police Chief O' Doole in the film "Miller's Crossing"

"Vas ya dere Charlie?" - Marlon Brando in an interview with Larry King.

As everybody is having so much fun disecting my mandolin # 73994, I just couldn't help resist diving into the fray! This mandolin which yes, I paid a ridiculous price for a few months ago, is a spectacular example of a Loar era F5 mandolin. It has an absolutely amazing sound with huge volume, superb balance, great bass and treble strings and a complex, epic tone that is, at the same time, wet and dry, woody and bell-like. Every note frets beautifully and it has a perfectly tapered neck. For my personal style of playing it is the ultimate mandolin. Oh yes, it's absolutely beautiful and completely original. Now, regarding the finish... as far as I can determine, none of us were working at the Gibson plant in Kalamazoo in 1923. So any observations regarding any of these mandolins should be read, noted and then accepted for what they are - speculations on facts that may or may not be "true". My mandolin does have very interesting crazing on the finish - but most Loar era F5's have all sorts of wierd inconsistencies. For example, a Loar that I just purchased at Skinner last month has tuner plates with 3 and 5 screws, a white plastic binding on the headstock facing front and ivoroid binding on the body. It is a March 31st 1924 Loar mandolin - signed on the same date as most of the "Fern" Loars. Strange? Well, yes and no... cause to my way of thinking nothing at Gibson was ever perfectly consistent during its heyday. How about the beautiful Loar currently up for sale at Elderly. I've owned two other Feb. 18th Loars and they were BOTH completely different from this new one. One of mine had a Virzi - one didn't. One had a very thick neck, the other was very, very thin. They both sounded fantastic. They both had an ivoroid binding on the side headstock. The Elderly Loar has (just speculatin' on a photo here!) what appears to be a front-facing, white plastic binding on the headstock (like a March 31 Fern Loar) and an unsusual yellow-black-white binding around the body - just like the binding that was on my Dec.1st "unsigned" and other signed Loar mandolins from that date. So what are to think about this? And does it really matter in the final wash what we think? It sure would be nice to see more people discussing the tonal qualities of these instruments or the music they play on them. I don't know about everyone else, but I PLAY my Gibsons for hours a day and they are one of the greatest pleasures in my life. I feel that the Loar F5's are truly America's "Strads" and, in some ways, an even more significant development in the history of string instruments. If you 've ever played an old tater bug mandolin (c'mon... we all have!) and also played a Loar (or any good F5 for that matter) you know that what the folks at Gibson did in the 20's was literally reinvent the mandolin. Not bad for a bunch of guys working with hand tools in Michigan over 80 years ago! So yes, let's keep talking about, speculating and hashing over all the details that make these mandolins the amazing musical works of art that they are. In my mind there is no more beautiful stringed instrument than the Loar era F5s. I guess that's why we love them so much and also why the F5 has become, in a sense, "the violin"... that is to say the model of what every mandolin builer since (including Gibson) has tried to recreate. OK - I've had my say... time to get back to making music. Many thanks to Scott Tichenor for creating such an important and user friendly website for all mandolinists...

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is our buddy F5Loars July 9, 23..6 numbers past Glasswebs 73994. #(74000). It too has the hard topcoat

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## danb

Yeah, most of us can just look.. it's really two separate levels of appreciation, one is describing them, the other is feeling them. I'd say a lot of this discussion focuses on what they look like. How they can make you feel is a whole other ballgame!

I wouldn't look at this as a dissection so much as folks coming to understand in greater detail how these were put together. I had no idea that the old axiom of "all loars are varnished, all post-loars are lacquered" isn't as black & white as I previously thought!

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## Charlie Derrington

As we've said before.......

The July 9 (sidebound) batch was different in quite a few ways. The top-bound ones (again just as a general observation) have that standard mid-to-late '23 finish appearance while the side-bound ones have that "harder" look and slightly different crazing pattern. I don't think we should, however, make statements based on broad generalities and just agree to agree that (as Steven previously stated) the Loar period Gibson F-5s are the pinnacle of American instrument manufacturing....Strads, indeed.

Although I just can't help myself... I agree that that batch was some type of finish experiment while Loar was on tour. My early '25 is certainly more like the standard '23 finish (sans color difference). # 

Charlie

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## Darryl Wolfe

I'm having a hard time determining whether I ruffled GLASSWEB's feathers or not. I certainly did not mean to do so. None of my "observations" or "opinions" have ever been meant in a manner that should be considered "detractive" to the instrument in question. I sometimes may fail to recognize that my comments could possibly be taken that way though. Yes, to play them is to love them. But, there is also an intense desire by some to UNDERSTAND THEM.

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## Glassweb

No offense taken at all Darryl! I'm experienced enough with these instruments to know that they're all over the board and that, in some ways, exceptions are very often the rule! I just thought I'd throw in one owner's perspective. And Dan, I do undertand that we're really just trying to increase our understanding of the Loar era F5 construction. I probably sounded more tweaked than I was. I appreciate everybody's perspective - true enuff!
By the way... I'm really amazed at how many undocumented F5's have surfaced in the last few years - both at Skinner auctions and through the dealers. Does anyone know how many Loars have surfaced since 2002? Kind of exciting to think of what might still be sleeping in a closet! Perhaps one more red sunburst Loar...

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## Charlie Derrington

Yes, Steven !! I've worked on the Red Mandolin and would love to see another one surface. It is without a doubt one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. For some reason, however, I sort of doubt that another exists.

Charlie

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## Glassweb

I'm with you Charlie... that might be our "Red Violin" huh?
Good 'ole Henry Garris... what a guy! I had a chance to buy the "Flame" from that eccentric old fellow, but he kinda scared me (and maybe a few others) off! In any case, I heard that's one spectacular sounding Fern Loar.

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## danb

Are you guys talking about the Eugene Claycomb aka 76787 aka "The red fern loar"?

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## Charlie Derrington

That's it. It is indeed one incredible instrument.

Charlie

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## danb

Any better pictures of it around? No offense Darryl

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## Glassweb

Maybe the current owner would be willing to send us some better images... that would be sweet!

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## Darryl Wolfe

I HAVE GOOD 35MM PICS...WE REALLY NEED TO GET MY 35MM LIBRARY DIGITIZED

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## Charlie Derrington

There is also a good picture on the front of NME's Gifts Christmas album. The owner gave us permission (when I was a member and while I had the instrument in my possession) to use it for the cover photo.

Charlie

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## danb

Darrryl: BRING IT TO LOARFEST. 


I'll bring my scanner with a 35mm adaptor!

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## mandoman15

Here's a question, do we know how many loar mandolins (signed loar f5's) were made, and as a real stretch, how many are in operation, or at least have their locations known... are there any lost loars? if this is a ridiculous question it dosen't need to be answered, i just figured Gibson must have some records of inventory ect... plus it would be neat to know.  thanks

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## danb

Well let's see.. current stats from the archives are
261 Loar signed instruments
214 F5 Loar mandolins
 22 L5 Loar Guitars
 18 H5 Loar Mandolas

 14 Loars in 1922
106 Loars in 1923
134 Loars in 1924
 #7 Loars that I don't have a day/month/year for (but we could guess pretty safely)

113 post-Loar F5 mandolins 
 #6 K5 Loar Mandocellos

Most of those are still alive & kicking (which is how we know about them). A few of the records we know only the model number as they were records of instruments from Gibson repair logs..

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## f5loar

One must assume that a dozen or so have been destroyed by acts of God: flood,fire,earthquakes,ect. as well as accidential loss like got run over by a damned old train.
I think there have been at least 3 water damaged Loars that were brought back to life. At least two Loars were smashed to splinters and both brought back to life.

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## mandoman15

so there were esentially 214 loars built or 214 we know of...?? thanks for the info though, this is truly fascinating stuff, my friends think i'm crazy...oh well:D

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## FrankenMouse

Let's not forget the one Loar-signed A5.

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## danb

Yes.. the Mando-Viola is also known as a Loar, though it has no signature label..

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## Jonathan James

Unrelated to the current discussion, other than it is about a Loar...in the current issue of NO DEPRESSION magazine, there is an article about Del McCoury. Mentions that Del recently bought that Loar for Ronnie as a gift and that it had been in undocumented and in "Mexico for the last 40 years." Also says Del bought Rob a vintage '40s banjo.

Wow, nice Dad....

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## Brian Aldridge

thanks for bringing that up jjboone101. I looked at pictures from the Grass Valley Festival this past Father's Day weekend, specifically to see Ronnie playing the April 25th, only to see he was still playing the Gil. I had heard the Loar needed some work. Has anyone heard anything on that?

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## kudzugypsy

whats exciting is the number of "undocumented" loars that have surfaced over the last 3 years. it seems that nearly every loar put up for sale recently has been undocumented. the ones at the recent skinner auction and i think the new elderly Feb 18th. 
historically, werent the estimated figures at around 250+ signed F5's? now that we are at 214 documented ones, that figure might be about right. lets hope that the rest are surviving somewhere!

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## Darryl Wolfe

My official F5Journal spreadsheet extrapolates numbers of instruments based on batch numbers. #This calculation is very conservative because it assumes that all "missing" instruments fall between the first and last KNOWN serial numbers for a batch. #I call this my "at least" numbers

Right now the "at least" calculation is:
386 Loar signed instruments
313 Loar mandolins

Placing a small fudge factor on these numbers to account for numbers outside of the batch and a few "one-of" instruments, it is still conservative and very reasonable to assume the "most probable" numbers are about**:

395 Loar instrument
325 mandolins

Of note, with exception of the current Elderly Loar, all of these recent undocumented finds have been included in the extrapolation. #Although undocumented, they have been assumed to exist. #The Elderly Loar has a number that is "one-of". #If that number actually represents another batch, then the estimates could go up by as much as 12-16. #However I think the Elderly Loar is a stand alone serial number.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is an excellent example:
July 9 1923 has 2 or 3 batches

73719 to 73733 the top bound batch. This batch has remained stable for years because all new discoveries have fallen between those numbers.

73747 to 73753. Oddities. I bought 73747 in 1984 for a client and thought it to be a "one-of" serial number. The mandolin has a one-piece back. But since then, every one of the 73748-73753 mandolins have turned up. Each has some unique thing to it, like gold harware on 3 or 4 of them. This is now a batch of undetermined size. Or, maybe it is part of the first batch with all of those numbers between and 73733 and 73747 being missing. I vote for two batches here/three overall July 9 batches.

73980 to 74002 the triple bound on sides batch. This batch has grown significantly. For years it stood at 73980 to 73992 (mine). But most of the numbers from 73993 to 74002 have surfaced with the highestes numbers being in the more recent years.

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## timothy.c.hicks

That is really ALOT of mandolins (of that quality) to be made in such a short period of time. #People give modern factories a hard time about the numbers of mandolins being produced per year but I imagine that none of the modern companies making high quality mandolins (Gibson and Collings) to name a few are close to the total yearly output of mandos of Gibson (of old) in its prime. #Folks often forget that the loar F-5 is a factory instrument that was probably produced by an assembly line of skilled artisans - much like the modern companies listed above - not made by a single individual such as Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel, Monteleone, etc.. #Darryl do you have an estimate of the total number of mandos being made per year by gibson during the Loar period?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Do I have an estimate, no. #But I can tell you that the number is in the thousands. #Figure the F5 to be 1 for at least every 15-20 mandolins of other styles.

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## mandophil(e)

If Darryl is correct, and there are (or maybe) another 100 or so Loar mandolins out there, what does that do to current valuations? I realize the market will never be flooded, as new, undocumented Loars seem to pop up infrequently, but I still wonder how many more can be absorbed at the current pricing levels?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Decent point, but I believe there is room. The market flattens and stays that price for periods of time. New find either go for the flat price or start a new rise in pricing. I believe you will see the market ob Loars flatten out for a while now at $130-150K depending on the instrument. It was only 2 years ago that Gruhn priced the mintish condition "shoplift" scratchy Loar at $65K

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## Darryl Wolfe

Let's use serial number 70000-80000 for Loar period numbers of instruments.

10,000 total instruments

Divide by 3 for 1922, 1923, 1924= 3,333 instruments per year.

Take 300 Loar mandolins and divide by 2.5 (not fully three years of production) = 120 Loar mandos per year

120 Loar mandos vrs 3333 all instruments

That leaves 3213 for all other.

Lets assume 60% are mandolins = 1927

That (1927/120)= 1 Loar for every 16 mandolins made

Pretty decent guess above...lots of unknowns here though

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## Rroyd

The information that McCoury's Loar needed some repair work done is correct; I was told that there were some major separations with the fingerboard and neck and extension, with a couple of parts practically falling off at first examination, and that Steve Gilchrist is doing the repair work.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Good info Rroyd. Those early '23's (Feb-April)are suseptible to that. I really don't know why though.
F5Loars April '23 had it, Monroes Feb 23..and numerous others. Usually the repairs can be done virtually undetectably..a good thing.

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## Charlie Derrington

I think three batches for July 9 fits. I still think that the anomolies had something to do with Lloyd not being there. Who knows? But I do find it interesting that the largest (and most unusual) signature date batch occured while Loar was out on tour.

Makes one think that anything he didn't approve personally previously, got shipped in a hurry.  But then again, nah.

Charlie

BTW.. The early Loars are prone to the fingerboard/extension hump problem because of the pearwood underlay of the fingerboard. It tends to rot and/or swell over time. When they changed the fb binding to I/B/W or W/B/W the problem goes away.

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## Glassweb

No Loar signatures here, but a nice grouping of Gibson Gals nonetheless... 1926 H4 - 1923 F4 - 191? H2 - 1923 A4

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## ronlane3

Darryl,

Thanks so much for the information. I'm glad to see that there is still hope of my running into an estate sale one of these days and finding an undocumented Loar and getting it for a steal of a price.

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## f5loar

You got a better chance at winning the power ball lottery.
Your best bet to find an undocumented Loar would be some unknowing finder from his granddad's attic posting it on ebay at a "Buy It Now" price of $3000 because he did his research on ebay and found newer models of the F5 are bringing $5000 to $6000 so a much older worn model should bring a lot less.

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## Glassweb

Wood that it were... but stranger things happen on a regular basis!

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## Brian Aldridge

I must say what a beautiful mandolin 75554, that is no longer available at Elderly's, is. I bet the new owner is a very happy person.

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## kudzugypsy

as far as undocumented loars surfacing, back when i was in college, one surfaced in the small town (Wilmington, NC) right under my nose. my being in college, there was nothing i could do about it. i was working part time at a mexican restaurant, and next door was an old established seafood restaurant that had been around for decades. the owners were in possession of a mint loar that they eventually sold thru mandolin brothers.
so these things can happen. i think that most of them would still be found in cities that had mandolin orchestras, i cant see someone just buying a loar back then just to play "Golden Slippers" at church picnics.

years ago before the internet, one might be able to get a deal (if they found one), but anyone can do a simple search these days and find out everything they need to know. the "good ol days" are gone. 

....funny side note - Gruhn use to put wanted ads in a lot of the "senior citizen" based magazines like Readers Digest and such. his theory was that women/widows would see these and cash in on some old instrument left by the husband. i would love to hear some of those deals!

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## johnwilson

Lloyd's contract with Gibson gave him the months of July and August to tour and play music. There are a lot of comments about batches of "odd" July instruments built during these musical vacations. So who approved the instruments, signed and dated the labels if Lloyd wasn't at the factory?

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## Darryl Wolfe

I've often assumed that Lloyd signed most all of the labels in advance. #This provides some sanity for why they are mostly signed on a Monday. #I suspect he signed a whole bunch of July 9 labels in adavance..accounting for the 3 batches and oddities in that group. #The September 23 instrument looks to be signed thru the f-hole...then you have December 23 instruments. #Considering there were for all purposes 2 sign dates a month for the largest part of 1923, my assumption seems to make sense. #Then you have the huge Feb and March 24 batches. followed by essentially nothing until Dec 1924. #Yes..I think he signed them in advance.

One other anomoly this supports is several custom ordered instruments delivered in 1926 with Loar signed 1924 dates..and an obvious 22 instrument with 24 appointments and 24 signed date..who knows.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Convince yourself that the A5, Sept 20th wasn't signed thru the f-hole and the July 9 was. #I think the other way around. Note slant to handwritting too.

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## johnwilson

Thanks, Darryl. That's my supposition as well, but I figured you or Charlie would KNOW. I have this vision of a cigar box full of signed labels waiting for finished instruments. Heck, some labels may still be waiting for all we know. It could also explain some of the instruments that were mysteriously unsigned. While all of these instruments are considered to be "Loars," it would certainly seem there were a good many that had a bit less of his individdual attention. Does anyone know if Lloyd personally inspected or tested the carved pieces or white instruments?

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## f5loar

Not one unsigned F5 has been found that the serial number would date it during the time Loar was there. Rumors and speculations yes, but none documented. A few have been found where the signed label feel out. The "unsigned" Loars were released after Loar was released since he was not there to approve them. Box of stickers already signed? Sure but if that is so it would be easy for anyone to glue one in there so why would you ship one without the label. The early advertisments make reference to the signed label as being an important part of the master models. 
Also, the slant is due to Loar being a left handed person.
He wrote left handed and picked right handed. I would think the guy that moved in Lloyd's office threw away that box of presigned labels.

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## philja

.....fascinating ! I would be interested to know how many F5's are reckoned to have been built (if not completely finished) in the '22-'24 'Loar' period but shipped later.
I own #85370 (see p.56 of this thread)which has serial & FON nos. for '27 but is totally unlike the usual post Loar 'ferns'. 
Mr. Derrington is correct in spotting that the binding on the body/fbd is white & ivoroid on the phd...confusing ??
And to give hope to the eternal optimists out there this mando surfaced in England 3 years ago.

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## danb

I almost forgot this photo of Jul 9, 1923 F5 #73727. This one was on eBay once.. mistakently "discredited" here at the cafe (!!!), then eventually sold via Mike Kemnitzer (Nugget) and Sandy Munro of the Great Divide

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## sgarrity

What about the one that is listed on MWHQ? It says it is undocumented and must be in his personal collectiion.

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## evanreilly

The instrument pictured on MWHQ has been posted there for quite some time; I would ask Dan B. or Darryll if it has made it into the 'Archives' at this point, and if there is any post-repair info available.

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## danb

Yes, that one was undocumented when Charles located it, but it's since been added to the Journal. I believe the restoration was done by Randy Wood and it's being played now

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## sgarrity

There are two listed. The first is the April 10, 1923 that had the water damage. That one has been listed for a long time. There is a second one listed that I hadn't noticed before. It is a December 1, 1924. Also undocumented. It looks to be in mighty fine condition.

Shaun

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## Darryl Wolfe

It's been documented..he posted on this thread quite a while ago

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## sgarrity

Cool. I figured it must have been but I just noticed it on his site today.

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## johnwilson

It appears the changes in the tailpiece(cover)design and engraving came before and after the Loar era with a remarkable consistency for years in between. I guess the same could be said for truss rod covers and paper labels. When did these items give way to different engraving styles and materials?

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## danb

The first TP cover design looked a bit like a pineapple. It got simplified in 1911 or so to the stamped one that is most familar. The Loars had fancier hand-engraved ones. All that time, everything else (non style 5) had the stamped ones. The stamping changed to just "GIBSON" in squiggly lines by around the 50s.. a few variants, then a lot of recent ones that seek to look like the old ones again...

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## johnwilson

Thanks, Dan. The engraving was obviously done in greater relief than the stamped covers. Are both covers the same gauge metal?

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## danb

Hmm. I'm pretty sure the Loar ones are silver plated, but otherwise the same deal. I think it was Charlie (Charlie, are you listening?) who suggested to me they were coated in something similar to clear nail polish over the silverplate (to keep it from tarnishing). The very old ones have deeper stamping. For a while I liked to think the stamp itself wore out, but of course there must have been many different ones over time.

I've got a pretty old one (3264), and the stamping is very deep.



Here's one from a '22 snakehead that's also quite well defined..



This one is Jack's 76547 Loar, shows the intact "varnish" over the plating on the left, worn on the right where a forearm might have leaned on it:

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## fredfrank

Not to hi-jack this thread, but the picture immediately above this post makes a dandy screen wallpaper!

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## danb

I've got a bigger one if you want it.. send me a PM and I can send in 1024x768.. 1280x1024.. etc

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## danb

March 31, 1924 H5 # 76498 at Elderly

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## danb

Back:

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## f5loar

Only $100,000 (pickguard extra). Few cracks here and there but hey it's signed. Should move pretty fast at this low,low below market price. Nice example of the best of the
best in mandolas. No Virzi too!

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## Brian Aldridge

was the virzi removed or originally w/o a virzi?

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## danb

Change that to 7649X.. the last digit is very hard to read (was probably over-written). Originally without virzi, I initially mis-read it as being one we already had a record for.

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## mandoman15

on post a pic of your A style, you can see the one and only loar A-5 are there any better pics of this amazing mandolin??

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## danb

here you go

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## mandoman15

all i can say is wow, how much money would someone have to steal to buy that one...:D

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## f5loar

It's been rumored that 3 F5 signed Loars would not take home this one of one. At least that's a starting price!

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## bluesmandolinman

does the current owner play this unique A ?
or is it just owned or "collected" ?

are there recordings where this mandolin is played 

just curious about the sound....

is the sound very different from the F5´s ?

oh boy one photo and so many questions coming up

cheers,René

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## Spruce

_"does the current owner play this unique A ?
or is it just owned or "collected" ?"_

It gets played...

_"are there recordings where this mandolin is played ?"_

Tut Taylor plays it on Hartford's Aeroplane and Aeroplane outtakes. #I also have a live recording of this band and I think the A5 is on board...
Sounds like it anyway...

Also, there's a tune with the A5 on Grisman and Rice's Tone Poems if I remember correctly...

_"just curious about the sound...."_

It's one of the nicest sounding mandolins I've ever played...

_"is the sound very different from the F5´s ?"_

It's a similar sound....

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## Darryl Wolfe

Loar 72055, Feb 8 1923 available at the Skinner auction

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## Darryl Wolfe

Fern? 89720 actually an F-pot, available at the Skinner auction

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## Darryl Wolfe

89720 is somewhat peculiar. #If it is fully original as-is, then it's another "holdover" based on the mid 30's peghead. #Fern inlay normally continued for several thousand more serial numbers. #It could also be refurbished or repaired in the past. #It looks original though based on the nuances of the finish.

Note, there is a batch of 897xx Ferns though

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's a picture form the first "Unofficial LoarFest" #This was taken at the first Guitar Show in Nashville. #I believe in 1987.

Anyone care to identify some people???

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## Darryl Wolfe

I had a pretty awesome booth of mandolins for sale and/or display

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## f5loar

Ah yes the beginings of a LoarFest. Those were the days.
Standing LtoR: Darryl, F5Loar(me),Gary Burnette,Bob Isenhour and some guy from Gibson I think. Kneeling is Jim Triggs and Henry Garris. If I knew then what I know now I would have bought every one of them that day. 
89720 is an odd/ball. I think it was renecked in the mid 30's like late '36 or early '37 before the block at 1st came out. It has the exact same wide open little peghead curl which is rather odd looking in itself. The peghead matches my '42 in that regards. Also flowerpot like a late 30's and Gibson is the smaller script style like on my '35 and not the fatter style used in late 30's and 40's. If redone by the factory and no doubt it was how would tell from the original Fern neck? A '29 sent back for neck repair is normal. Still had that lifetime repair warrenty. 
Could be an Apollon F5 as he was always changing out fretboards as if he had a stash of them. I suspect the way Apollon played he went through the frets and back then you didn't replace each fret like today you put on a new fingerboard. I suspect this neck mystery will hinder the price on this one. The Loar should bring top dollar.

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## f5loar

Also just noticed the tuner shafts are sticking out way too far to be original.

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## kudzugypsy

is this yet another "undocumented" loar surfacing?

with the sale thru the cafe of the recent july 9, (that went in less than 3 days) i just can not see someone paying skinner to handle the sale - thus costing both the seller and buyer (+ taxes) this is just bewildering.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Yes, it's indocumented (well, Skinner contacts us months before they announce sale..so it's documented as of a few months ago)

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## f5loar

I would say the person who choose Skinner has not heard of the Cafe for the free ads. One reason you would go through Skinner is not only the handling of the funds safely plus safe shipping if needed but the ease of mind of knowing it had a shot at the whole world not just those that know about the Cafe. Japan has a lot of collectors that closely watch Skinner for vintage instruments. Logic would tell you to offer over the Cafe first and then no bites go to Skinner at auction or Gruhn at set sale price.

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## tlgvintage

Hey...I'm new here and new to the mando. My dad had a July 9th, 1923 Loar. He sold it (sadly...would have made a great first mandolin!) through Tony Williamson. I can try to post some pics if anyone cares.

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## Spruce

Sure!

What was the serial #?

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## Darryl Wolfe

Probably 73728

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## Darryl Wolfe

73728

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## danb

Bruce, you played that one at WG  :Wink:

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## Spruce

Yep....
But mostly exactly a year ago at IBMA....

My belly is still tingling...

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## kudzugypsy

tony told me that loar came from the vaults of "John Boy & Billy" (famous radio personalities here in the southeast..ie, nascar, and redneck humor)
they were moving their money into 50's strats and les pauls.

...btw, neither played a lick.

that was one of the BEST loars of all time - the one that made you hand it back after 5 mins saying "i cant take any more of this"

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## tlgvintage

Yeah...Dad is at john boy & billy inc. I never got to play it either...in a safe 24/7. He and I started up www.tlgvintageguitars.com togehter 50/50 after he sold the Loar. You guys sure do know a lot.

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## f5loar

My question would be "Are you still speaking to your dad?"
Talk about the one that "got away" in a family sense.

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## tlgvintage

I was mad for a while...but he bought me a 1957 Stratocaster with some of the profit...so I cooled off :Smile:

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## tlgvintage

> tony told me that loar came from the vaults of "John Boy & Billy" (famous radio personalities here in the southeast..ie, nascar, and redneck humor)
> they were moving their money into 50's strats and les pauls.
> 
> ...btw, neither played a lick.
> 
> that was one of the BEST loars of all time - the one that made you hand it back after 5 mins saying "i cant take any more of this"


By the way...it wasn't John Boy and Billy who bought the Loar, it was Johnny and my dad. Johnny doesn't play anything...but my dad plays Dobro, guitar, and banjo (I picked up the guitar when I was 3 and recently started on mando). It was a shame that nobody could play it...but it was mainly an investment.

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## kudzugypsy

well they made good money on that investment - but yeah, i'd rather have the loar too. it was a monster.

i think most of the buyers are now into vintage solely for the investment potential. you get FAR more capital gains without the tax implications.

----------


## danb

> i think most of the buyers are now into vintage solely for the investment potential. you get FAR more capital gains without the tax implications.


You'd be surprised. I've not met an owner yet that doesn't at least play a bit!

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## Glassweb

I took my Loar out last night to play at a folk club here in NYC - got it in my Pegasus case and there's no problem. What a pleasure to hear that sound backing up Erin Regan. The best... and yes, this one has Virzi. Don't dig Virzis? Check this one out. It ain't mint this one... so it's a delight not to have to worry too much about it. We pay a lot of money for these vintage F5's - so I say play 'em now while you're alive, take as good care of them as possible and let someone else worry about the condition after you're dead and gone!

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## Brian Aldridge

I couldn't agree with you more Glassweb. I always take one of my Loars or my early Fern to every gig I play. I used to try taking a newer mandolin to gigs so as not to have to worry any about stuff, but always just ended up regretting not having the old one instead. As you said, just take as good care of it as possible and insure the heck out of it. I have a virzied and a non virzied Loar. I have a few BG friends who actually like the virzied one better. It will go head to head with the non in terms of volume and projection, and has an incredible tone. I guess the word I've seen used to describe that tone is complex, and I think that is a good term. It doesn't have the bite that the non virzied one does though. In truth, I find myself drawn to my early Fern quite strongly though. But I see-saw between the three as to which one draws me. Any of the three will work in any situation.

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## f5loar

Did Bush change the capital gains tax laws on intangable assets? That's a new one on me. I believe it's due in the tax year you sold it but whether or not it is reported as a capital gains is another issue.

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## glauber

Sam Bush?

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## kudzugypsy

f5loar - i'm not a tax lawyer or accountant - so what i have is just gain thru casual conversations, etc - and i'm referencing people buying for investment (ie, they have high $$$ accountants and money managers that will tell them when to buy, how much they need to spend, and when to sell) this is quite different from the player who wants a loar and takes out a home equity line.
it was my *understanding* there was some kind of *loophole* that ended last year. if i was selling a loar or other high end instrument, i think it would be VERY wise to consult a tax advisor first - esp when we're talking $125K+

and, not to mention that all this really can be done under the tax radar if you are so inclined. there are still people who can pay you that kind of money in cash.

----------


## tlgvintage

Just wondering...what do you do with $150,000 + in cash?!?

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## f5loar

You best keep it under your mattress if you don't want to pay capital gains tax on your last sale. Loopholes are being closed up not opened up. If you have your certified accountant or broker buying and selling your vintage instruments for you there will be a paper trail. The IRS loves paper trails. It's easy to convict and make you pay up with a simple paper trail. While most pickers buying $150,000 mandolins seldom would think of paper trails and the IRS at the same time it does happen. It's unreported income and the IRS takes that pretty serious whether you are a mandolin picker or a leverage buyout broker on Wall Street. Say you sale the Loar you bought in 1967 for $150,000. That's a $147,000 captial gain. Then you take that $150,000 and buy you a new BMW 760Li loaded and flop down the cash for it or a new double wide trailer. You have turned your undocumented capital gain into a paper trail for the IRS. It may take several years but 8 out of 10 times they will get to you. Didn't that naked guy on Survivor Richard Hatch? get caught for not reporting his million dollar winnings from the TV show? What an idoit to be such a great survivor. Didn't someone we know appraise a mandolin for $500,000 for estate tax purpose and then turn around a few years later and sell it for $1,125,000? The IRS wanted to know what happened to their $625,000 capital gains for tax now owed. And no I'm not a tax lawyer or IRS agent but I have been there done that and paid the price.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here are few new shots of 73992. I tried to get some things captured that you don't see all the time

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992, with flash revealing finish texture

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

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## Darryl Wolfe

73992

----------


## MANDOLINMYSTER

NICE!!! That finish looks like it just came out of the factory, is it original?

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## Darryl Wolfe

All original except bridge top. Every screw and part is orig. Light french polish around scroll area on face and portion back where perspiration/body heat hits it

----------


## f5joe

And to think I was there when f5journl gave birth to this monster.

I missed bopping on it dude.

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## f5loar

F5Joe, those photos inspired me to dig out my old July 9th reversed binding. Man that sure was a powerful batch. 
Looks like Darryl's is holding up pretty good.

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## Charlie Derrington

Tommy,

Why in the world would you be playing anything but that July 9?

Yup, a very special batch.

Charlie

----------


## f5loar

You have to alternate them so they don't fall asleep!
I got into a jam session with one of Big Mon's ex-banjo boys tonight and he cut into Bluegrass Breakdown and all of sudden the July 9th woke up real quick on my first break!

----------


## Ken Waltham

As a lot of you guys know, I had the very next July 9 from Darryl's for years.
The sides were similar, but the backs could not have been more different.
My mandolin, in a lot of ways, looked more like the next one in order, belonging to Glassweb.
I need to post some detail photos like Darryl has, of the June prototype sidebound Loar. It has some unusual traits, such as the binding being higher than regular July 9's. Charlie once told me it has the nicest "slip matched" back he had seen. Can you elaborate on slip matched Charlie?
Ken

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

"slip matched" 

halves from same narrow board..above and below each other..then turn one around so same edge is in middle...not split and book matched

----------


## Spruce

...and can create a more "bookmatched" look, as you are carving away the same amount of figure from each half of the similarly-figured plates...

Slip-matched tops _might_ be the reason a lot of Loar tops do not appear to be a traditional bookmatch.
But I'm thinking that the graining is so different from side-to-side on a lot of them that they are indeed two different boards from two different sources...

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Sorry it took so long.

Bruce and Darryl covered it. I think the main reason was that the stain takes evenly on slip matched spruce.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

staining...great point Charlie...I don't think that's ever been mentioned, but certainly sounds right

----------


## Spruce

_"I think the main reason was that the stain takes evenly on slip matched spruce."_

Interesting...
So if there's a tad of run-out in a board and you slip-match it, it _will_ take stain evenly, won't it?
I'd never thought of that...

I'd kill just to see just one old photograph of their wood room circa '23-24...
It would sure answer a lot of questions...

----------


## Ken Waltham

Maybe I didn't understand when he told me, but, Charlie, I thought at the time you were referring to the back.
Ken

----------


## Spruce

Yep...

But I brought tops into the picture...

Both were probably slip-matched, and their wood room was probably chock-full of 8-10' long boards of 1x6 red spruce and hard maple.....

----------


## Charlie Derrington

It was the back. But they did that, too. I've also seen backs with different boards (tree ?)for each side. I'm not sure (gosh, it's so hard to tell, sometimes) but I think my back is book matched, but moved down on one side.

Staining is not as critical of an issue on the backs, particularly for the slab-cut ones.

Charlie

----------


## danb

Here's an interesting new detail.. apparently at least one Loar fretboard has an original radius of 22". I'd be curious to hear from Charlie or other folks who've looked at several if this varies at all.. the old conventional wisdom that they are flat might need an adjustment.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

quit teasing Dan. #How do you know and can you prove it? (to quote a good friend of mine)
Seriously, I've never seen one, how do we know there is an original radiused board.

----------


## ronlane3

Keep 'em coming Darryl. Those are great pictures. Darryl, I know that they are Loar's but could you possibly post some side by side pictures of a Loar and a 29 Fern?

----------


## danb

> I've never seen one, how do we know there is an original radiused board.


22" radius is pretty hard to detect, that's almost flat. It was measured recently by a noted luthier who has one in his possession. Might be able to get him to weigh in here, he's wrapping up some substantial research on a particularly fine example

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Well, Dan...

I've got to side with Darryl on this one. I've never seen a radiused board (even slightly) on an original Loar. They sometimes even look like they are cupped instead of radiused. (An optical illusion, or the board lifting slightly on the edges)

That's not to say that one couldn't exist, but I sort of doubt it. Probably caused by a plane and refret at some point in it's history.

Charlie

----------


## Brian Aldridge

I was playing at Penn's Peak in Jim Thorpe PA last Saturday, and a guy was telling me that Mandolin Bros has a near mint Loar that recently came out of the woodwork, and they were asking 225k for it. I couldn't find it on their website. Does anyone have any knowledge of this?

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Hi Bri...

Nope, nuthin' on this end.

Charlie

----------


## danb

> Well, Dan...
> 
> I've got to side with Darryl on this one. I've never seen a radiused board (even slightly) on an original Loar. They sometimes even look like they are cupped instead of radiused. (An optical illusion, or the board lifting slightly on the edges)
> 
> That's not to say that one couldn't exist, but I sort of doubt it. Probably caused by a plane and refret at some point in it's history.
> 
> Charlie


Not a refret.. you know the one I'm talking about, and also who did the checking!

But a 22" radius is not much really, even a 16" radius feels nearly flat as well. I'm quite curious too really, the report did surprise me.

Didn't someone here recently post a quote from a Gibson catalog that discusses a slight curve available on the fretboard as an option?

----------


## Glassweb

Just asked Stan Jay, owner of Mando Bros, about the rumor of this $225K Loar at their shop. He laughed! There is NO TRUTH to this rumor. Case closed!

----------


## Brian Aldridge

thanks CD and SB. I thought that 225 was six or eights months premature.

----------


## Glassweb

Yes, I'd say the $225K price would be an EXTREME case of "premature appreciation"... (sorry, couldn't resist!)

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## Darryl Wolfe

Just a little bump here. #Note that in this picture taken (lifted) from mandocafe homepage that Mr. Loar is playing a 10-string mandola oriented instrument. It appears to have 3 courses of wound strings

----------


## danb

Well Darryl, you've just blown my only Loar secret. I can add this.. I know what year it was made.. but the trail went cold. Here's a better picture..

----------


## danb

This is a peghead from a 1917 H2. Imagine some 5-on-a-plate pages on there (like my recently traded vega 10-str had)..

Standard Mandola body.. standard neck (as close as I can tell), 5-on-a-plate tuners as were available at the same time (1917) my old vega 10-str was prodouced..

----------


## danb

Another View..

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## danb

Here's Lloyd with an interesting ~1905 F4. Note the inlaid guard has the small dot in it, probably the "Butterfly" inlay.. Lloyd also had his fingerboard extension chopped and has an interesting guard on the body near the soundhole. You can see back binding, but a horizontal "The Gibson" on the peghead.. so this is likely a 1905 3-pointer. Perhaps a special order, as the combination of features is unusual..

----------


## danb

Here're the tuners I assume match the ones on the earlier 10-str..

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## danb

Compare..

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## Darryl Wolfe

You've just gotta love the shoes in the picture with the chair. #I think Liberace may have inherited them

----------


## f5loar

From the looks of his pants leg I'd say ole Lloyd was expecting high water that day. These look pre-Gibson era.
So young looking. This would explain why he jumped on the 10 string with F holes early in his days with Gibson. He had a thing for the 10 thing.

----------


## Brian Aldridge

Lloyd had a nice set of ears.

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## Michael Lewis

Dan, isn't that 10 string thing in Roger Siminoff's care? You should contact him.

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## Antlurz

> _You've just gotta love the shoes in the picture with the chair._


Regardless of his poweress with music, I believe folks of his time would have looked at his attire and labeled him a "Dandy", as the term went.

Ron

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## danb

> Dan, isn't that 10 string thing in Roger Siminoff's care? You should contact him.


Roger had the f-holed 10-string (and singing saw, and electric viola) for years.. it's now in the hands of another gentleman. This is a different 10-string, made approx 5-6 years prior to his employee relationship with Gibson..

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## markishandsome

Maybe my eyes are playing trickson me, but it looks like the "extra" tuners on the oval 10-string are spaced a little further apart than the rest. Maybe something of a frankenstein with 2 4-on-a-plates and 2 singles?

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## Jason Kessler

> it looks like the "extra" tuners on the oval 10-string are spaced a little further apart than the rest


I believe Attractive Mark has made an astute and interesting observation.

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## danb

Hmm, maybe.. though that very same year.. you could get them 5-on-a-plate (or vega did anyway!), and the 5/plate ones also appear on the f-holed one.. Dunno, It lloks sorta borderline in the picture but I'd have thunk it'd be the same plates as my vega had (just becuase they were clearly available then). Also.. think Tiple.. that's 10-strings usually (2-3-3-2) and similar plates.

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## Ken Waltham

I've seen them "married" like Handsome Mark says. I wish I could see the mandola/mandolin tuners, with F holes, I bet they are made up.....
I also think the mandolin is an F2. I think that binidng on the back is just a reflection.
It has an F2 peghead, for sure.

----------


## f5loar

Looks like an F2 to me too Ken. They sure was pretty when new.

----------


## Michael Gowell

Yeah, I've read a reference to LL playing an F-2 at least before (and maybe during?) the time he worked for Gibson in Kalamazoo. #Though whether that info was based on this photo or from another source I don't know. #Wish I could remember where I read that...

Interesting that he played a relatively plain F-2 when he so clearly dressed at the height of elegance for concert work - guess it was a good 'un...

Am I remembering correctly that he was a paid endorser for Gibson prior to his employment at the factory? #Anyone know
when that arrangement began? #We tend to concentrate on his quality control role at the factory and don't talk about how he was one of that era's leading performers...

----------


## danb

> I've seen them "married" like Handsome Mark says. I wish I could see the mandola/mandolin tuners, with F holes, I bet they are made up.....
> I also think the mandolin is an F2. I think that binidng on the back is just a reflection.
> It has an F2 peghead, for sure.


Well I'm 99% sure they are 5-on-a-plate on the f-holed 10-string, simply because they look exactly like the plate style I had on my vega, and clearly those were around at least as early as 1917 when that vega was made.

You guys are right, it probably is reflection, not binding, and an F2.

----------


## Ken Waltham

I have never seen the mando/viola, so I would certainly hope it has factory made, 5 on a plate tuners.
But, my experience with Gibson, is that it may in fact be a marriage.
As you know, they were privately owned, and wasted nothing.
The 5 on a plate you posted were really nice, and I have never seen them before. The ones I've seen, mostly on banjo mandos and other oddities were marriages from 2 sets of tuners. They were also cheaper instruments.
BTW, all the times I've seen that photo of Lloyd... I've never noticed that mandola had 10 strings!
And.... you know who has Loar's F2 now..... the experimental Virzi one....

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The mando-viola has factory made gold wriggle end 1922/ealy 23 style tuners. The instrument however has hex bushings ala 30's.

I agree with Mark, the upper end tuner spacing is larger on the 10-string oval hole which to me indicates a rigged up set of tuners. I'd almost bet it's a set of 8 string mando tuners with another pair of individuals simply cut off and added on the end. If you ground off the end of the 4 post set and added another matching individual, it would look reasonable

----------


## Philip Halcomb

Hey off the topic a little, but are there any pictures of David Grisman's crusher? I always wanted to see close-ups of that mandolin. Thanks...

----------


## ShaneJ

Cool, Darryl! How 'bout a shot of the rest of it? Wood body, or metal?

----------


## mandopete

Man,you gotta lower that action!

----------


## ShaneJ

> Man,you gotta lower that action!


Yeah, and finish carving the back of the neck too!  

Seriously, Darryl, I was assuming mandolin content and didn't even count tuning machines and strings. I have had the bug for a resonator mandolin lately. Ever made one of those?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here's a real beauty that our own Dan Beimborn helped unearth

81273

----------


## mandopete

Yikes!

That's a steal at a mere $35K.

----------


## levin4now

Looking back a couple of pages to those pictures of Lloyd Loar holding that '05 3 pointer makes me wonder - are all the Gibson builders today dressed in the same manner? Or has Gibson relaxed its dress code policy? Maybe Lloyd's pics were taken on "Casual Friday".

----------


## mandophil(e)

There have been numerous discussions about the total number of signed Loars out there, but I'm curious about how many pre-war Ferns are known to exist. I did a rough count of those listed in the Archive, and came to about 90 some odd, making them quite a bit rarer than Loars. It also seems as though there are distinct types--those with arrow-end tuners vs. round end, those with "the Gibson" vs just "Gibson", etc. Darryl, Dan, Tom, or anybody else care to weigh in on this? 

Also, is it thought that there are probably as many undiscovered Ferns as unknown Loars? It seems as though there are 2-4 new Loars a year that are coming to light. Is that the same frequency for new Ferns?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

From the Journal

134		Post Loar instruments (verified)
118		Mandolins, F
2		Mandolas, H
1		Mando-cellos, K
14		Guitars, L (fairly recent category, hundreds were made) 

I don't have extrapolation calcs set up for post Loar period, but just a quick figure would add about 50% to the 118 mandolin figure above. #Yes Ferns are actually more rare than Loars.

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## f5loar

You have the postLoar flowerpots and fleur-de-lis in that total so back those out and you do have far less Ferns made making them far more rarer than a signed Loar at only half the price. Ferns should fall into two categories:
1925 to 1931 and 1932 to 1936. Flowerpots start back in 1937 and fleur-de-lis in 1941 to 1943. When I was torn between owning a Loar or a Fern Randy Wood told me "Nobody ever complained about the sound Bobby Osborne got from his Fern" There are quite a few fantastic sounding Ferns out there. About 20 have been added to the verfied listing in the past 4 years or about 5 per year. Another 50 to be found! Good Luck!

----------


## kudzugypsy

hey dan, whats the story on unearthing the '25 L-5?

- it was on hold last week - i see its back for sale.

----------


## mandophil(e)

Tom, my understanding is that top flight early Ferns were usually tracking at better than half the price of a Loar. Has that changed?

----------


## danb

re: the '25.. I was contacted via the archives by the owners. They initially were inquiring about value, had some family issues a few months later that prompted them to sell, so I talked around for them, picked out the best images, had various archive friends pore over it, and we came up with a value.. 

I helped them to make a deal with Stan W at Elderly. Nice guy, very easy to work with, 100% trust at all times as you can imagine. Not a heck of a lot to tell really! 

I do get a fair number of interesting emails from the archives of course, and I always try to do well to hook owners up with fair prices etc if they want to sell. Hmm, it has been a couple weeks now since a Loar has turned up, hasn't it?

----------


## f5loar

As with most anything of collector value condition is an important part of price so you have a range to consider for Loars and Ferns. I'd say today's range for a Loar runs $125,000 to $185,000 and an early Fern is running $72,000 to $88,000 so close to being half price. These are prices for complete originals not refinished or refurbished, mucked with, toyed with or butchered up conditions. They can be as much as half those prices. I have no doubt a pristine minty condition newly found July 9th reverse binding Loar that could blow your socks off with one stroke of a B chord and could loosen the head of a calf skin 30's Mastertone from it's power thrust could fetch $200,000 easily.  What say you Darryl and Dan?

----------


## danb

Yep, it's already happened. Unoffically there are at least 2 Loars that have sold over $175k

What appears to be happening now in the market from my armchair.. the prices have crept up a bit again, stabilizing for a while around $120k for a flowerpot, $130 for a fern or sidebound, and spiking up to 80% more again for super-fine examples. Ferns have also been climbing steadily, a good one will fetch in the neighborhood of $90k these days. 

I think what happened to the market of old gibsons recently is simply explained by the internet. More people are aware of them, which didn't really increase demand but increased the ability of buyers to find them and compete. Ebay prices for "Standard" vintage are getting relatively stable, with the caveat that pristine examples are being fought over by collectors for very high prices (the $6600 super-clean A2z recently on eBay as an example).

To stick a finger in the air, I'd guess we're around this mark on average:

Flowerpot Loar: $120k
Sidebound or Fern Loar: $135-150k
Unusually incredible/clean Loar: $175-?
Ferns '25-30: $80-95k

F4 1912-1918 super-clean: $5500-6000
F4 truss rod: $7500-8500

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Agree

Same thing has happened lately for the '30's Martin D's, it's a sellers market on them, as in name your price for the especially good ones

----------


## mandophil(e)

I think there is a difference in valuation in the marketplace between early Ferns with arrow-end tuners and later models. Gruhn and Elderly both have very clean later Ferns that haven't moved at $80k.

----------


## f5loar

$120K for a flowerpot '23 is low but not for a '24 run of the mill with Virzi in or out. A '23 has always brought more than a '24 and a '22 has brought more than a '23. 
Darryl is right about D prewar Martins. There was a well worn almost all original '38 D28 on ebay a few weeks back that fetched over $47,000 blew me away. No doubt 2006 will see Loars reach the $200 grand mark.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Absolutely mandophil(e) #Those early ones are in the price range mentioned above whereas the later are definitely not.
We sometimes tend to lump all post Loar F5's together as "Ferns", but there are "Ferns", "late Ferns" and "30's" F5's, each having a price range/structure that gets commensurately lower in value

----------


## mandophil(e)

Darryl:

Is the difference between "early" and "late" Fern the tuners/tailpiece set-up, or is it the body dimensions? Or both? I've heard about Ferns with early FON's that have later style equipment, but are still considered early. What is your take on the differences?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Also,in my mind at least, there is an uncanny similarity between the value and desirabilitiy of those four "classes" of pre-war F5's and the desirability and used market price of:

a 2004 Master Model---------Loar
a 2004 "Fern"---------------Early Fern
a 1995 F5L------------------Late Fern
a 1982 F5L------------------30's F5

The percentage $ difference and desirability align just about perfectly.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Mandophil(e)-The differences are in in both the arching, graduations and finish thickness. #There are the obvious cosmetics of tuner styles, inlay and such, but the late Ferns have thicker tops and backs along with thicker shiney lacquer finishes for a heavier overall feel and sound. #The early Ferns differ from Loars in arching, but the graduations are very good and the finish is thin for simply a different and brighter sound than a Loar. #Cosmetically, the early Ferns have gold plated hardware that is identical to the silver Loar hardware.

Again, direct comparisons can be made with the modern F5's mentioned above.

----------


## f5loar

Look for price cuts in those dealers that lost their Gibson dealership that still have old 2003/2005 inventory.
I was at at store last week that had a their 2005 Fern Varnish on sale for $7999 while a used one on the cafe was at $8500. This store had the DMM down to $18K. They had many 2004's and at least one 2003 on display. Since Gibson raised prices they are going to move this stuff cheap. Hey Darryl don't forget to post my blonde on the blonde thread.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Holy Cow. #This post could not be more timely. #Matched pair of custom ordered Fern mandolins 84264 and 84265. #Original double case. #Newly added to the journal.

----------


## Christian

Darryl, that is outstanding! Same batch as Earl Taylor's and Jimmy G. old Fern, right? Must me the only original double case in existence as well. What a find. Do you have any more informations on the instruments?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

They were made for Robert L. Sharp in 1927 under factory order #9288 with a specially designed carrying case that holds both instruments. #He was the founder and conductor of the Memphis Plectro Phonic Orchestra in the late 1920's and early 1930's. He is pictured in Catalogs of the period

----------


## Brian Aldridge

absolutely astonishing... are there more pictures? They look awful red. Is that just the pic or were they a custom color as well?

----------


## danb

*jaw drops to floor*

----------


## mandophil(e)

Why would anybody order two identical mandolins, particularly when each one cost as much as a new car?

----------


## f5loar

Dave Apollon always kept 2 on stage at all times. Never know when you are going to break a string and the show must go on. Plus keeps from wearing out frets so fast!
As for the price, just as you have collectors paying over $100,000 for a Loar today would not be any different then paying $600 for 2 Ferns(includes the case) in 1927. They had rich mandolin pickers back then too!

----------


## danb

Boy, I wonder if those are coming to bakersfield

----------


## Ken Waltham

Just when you think yo've seen it all!!!
That totally knocks my socks off! The case is unreal.

----------


## MML

I'm with you Dan,

 Jaw drops to floor...and eyes pop out of head

----------


## jasona



----------


## grandmainger

Darryl, do you know if the current owner prefers one to the other? And if so, why? 

Man, I've always had dreams of twins

----------


## ethanopia

Very Tasty!

I love the double case, will these be at Loar Fest West?

Were there any Matched Loar or Fern Mandolin's and Mandolas sold together like this?

----------


## f5loar

What, no back photos to see if they match grains?

----------


## Mando4Life

Fantastic!!!

I've always thought the mid-late 20's Ferns were awesome!

It makes you wonder just what else may be lurking out there in a closet, under a bed, etc.

WBL

----------


## mandophil(e)

Anybody know the details related to the discovery of these beauties?

----------


## Glassweb

Now THAT'S the way to start a new year... what a staggering image! We'll all be laying in bed tonight thinking about those sweet, sweet twins... YOW!

----------


## GTison

Has one got a aluminum bridge top or is that a reflection. Got some more pics for the archive??

----------


## danb

I'm just starting my day here and Darryl posted at the end of his last night, so I haven't spoken to him yet.. I hope to put details up on the Archives as soon as they are available. This certainly qualifies as the "find of the year" already!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

What you see is all I have. I'm not at liberty to say anything more than this: I was contacted by the owner. The original owner was his grandfather. He seems to know the full history of the mandos and he is contemplating selling. More to come.

----------


## kudzugypsy

WOW - it might be a good year after all.
over the last month, there have been 3 original 30's 1pc flange flatheads come out of the attic and now, a set of matching ferns. that is wild - i hope they can stay together.

----------


## f5loar

I could use 2 more! Pass it on!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

F5LOAR, don't you have a "hole" in your collection around the 26-29 period of time

----------


## f5loar

yes, it's a BIG gap there so pass it on I'm interested at first grabs. These would fill the hole big time!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here is all we know for this period

84251 F5 Mandolin Fern, dot at third fret, stamp no. 9140, serial no. possibly 84257. #Bobby Osborne

84252 F5 Mandolin Fern, near mint, stamp no. 9140. #2004 sale

84257 F5 Mandolin Possibly same instrument as 84251.			
84264 F5 Mandolin Fern, near mint, stamp no. 9288. Part of matched set			

84265 #F5 #Mandolin Fern, near mint, stamp no. 9288. Part of matched set. #Neck slightly loose, needs reglue 	

84270 #F5 #Mandolin Previously owned by Jimmy Gaudreau, 3-piece neck, new fingerboard, stamp no. 9140, neck reset. owned by John Paganoni now.

84271 #F5 Mandolin Fern, worn, formerly owned by Earl Taylor, repaired peghead scroll, crack in body

So, this gives all appearance that FON 9140 is the standard batch, and FON 9288 is the special order for the pair. There is all appearances that every serial number from 84251 to 84271 would be an F5. But this is all we have on record

----------


## danb

Here're a couple more photos from the owner..

----------


## danb

Very nice...

----------


## danb

Very nice folks and a great story behind the instruments too. I just chatted with the owner and the family is indeed considering a sale. They have been in family since purchase and the present owner's grandfather was a well-known player back in the day.

The case is of course a custom job from the Gieb company back in the late 20s. Condition appears superb in the images, and all parts also appear to be original. 

My jaw still hits the floor when I take in the look in that double case!

----------


## sgarrity

Now that is truly amazing. What a find. I hope one of the guys from the board gets a shot at buying them.

----------


## danb

That's the hope!

----------


## Ken Waltham

That just blows me away. Amazing. Now we need to see the F5/H5 combo in a double case.

----------


## danb

Checking to see if I can get some closer details..

----------


## craigtoo

Absolutely Stunning instruments....

Checking on Home Equity now.....

craig

----------


## markishandsome

Does the one on the right have some orange-peel effect on the back? I wish I looked that good draped in green velvet!

----------


## danb

Not quite sure what you mean by orange peel effect. Here's a closer shot of the back..

the one on the left..

----------


## danb

The one on the right..

----------


## danb

Tops.. L-r again

----------


## danb

2nd

----------


## Glassweb

That's really sick... in only the best of ways! I recently sold my Fern that was from that batch... all I can say is that whoever writes the check for these will be pretty pleased. DOUBLE YOW!

----------


## ShaneJ

Dan, is there any reason why the G strings are sharing a slot on the bridge on the first top?

----------


## mandophil(e)

My guess is that is the one with the loose neck, so the strings are slack.

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Loose neck?

Boy, would that be really rare !!

BTW, sure is easy to tell they're lacquer. I'd give an eye tooth to have that case.

Charlie

----------


## f5loar

Hey Charlie now that you see how a double Loar case looks that actually has pockets in it why not do one up for sale for all us multi-Loar owners out there? So far the double cases offered by others don't have the neat little pockets these have plus that nice long side pocket. I'll take the proto type in green please!

----------


## Charlie Derrington

That'd be a great idea, Tommy. I'll talk to the guys at the bluegrass division and see what they think.

Charlie

----------


## jim simpson

Here's a shot of my double (not Loar) case made by Rob Anderson. The are 2 storage pockets w/lids that provide ample storage space.

----------


## jim simpson

detail of one of the two storage compartments

----------


## jim simpson

case closed!

----------


## fredfrank

> Hey Charlie now that you see how a double Loar case looks that actually has pockets in it why not do one up for sale for all us multi-Loar owners out there? #


Sounds like a very small niche market. Multiple Loar owners. Probably not a lot of those would care to take one Loar out and about, let alone two.

----------


## Glassweb

Forget the double case... who wants to lug something like that around? I'll gladly take the 2 Ferns however... with a matched pair of Caltons in Vintage Green please!

----------


## GTison

I remember we had a discussion about the fret placement on newer MMs and Loars, and now these ferns show up with seemingly the same fret position as modern ones or am I not seeing it right? #

Compare this pic from a previous post to the above pics

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle. Great catch Bowfinger. We learn something new every day. So, an example of ever changing templates at Gibson during that period

----------


## f5loar

It's possible that during that time and certainly Loar's time there was at least 3 guys and maybe up to 6 that could build the F5 from start to finish. Would not each guy have their own templete at his own station? Possible guys left or died and templetes got lost and new ones had to be built from the old ones. Wouldn't it be nice for a film to show up showing them making the F5 of the 20's?

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I don't really buy that argument, however two distinctly different templates apparently existed and were interchanged during this period. Here is one just a few numbers off with the Loar style profile. Looking through the archives there are only a few later 20's Ferns with the non-Loar profile

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Neither do I, Darryl... there would have been bulk fingerboards available to all builders, and they would have used whatever was available out of the f/b bin.

However, it is interesting to note that the Loar period fingerboards were calculated to the closest 1/64th while the modern boards are calculate to the closest .0001. It might have been that a different engineering calculation was tried, at some point, as an experiment in improving intonation. Who knows? 

Still, it's very interesting as I hadn't noticed the modern spacing on any old boards, before.

Charlie

----------


## mandopete

Darryl - that picture looks good enough to eat!

----------


## banjo1

The luchy owner of these twins has really got something to proud of Darrly
Great pics.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here is H5 #76491. Photo courtesy of our own F5JOE

----------


## MML

Nothing like a Loar signed mandolin with growth hormonial problem #

----------


## johnwilson

Sunset Park, PA, 1963 there's a guy trying to sell a Loar from the trunk of his car but there are no takers 'cause it's a mandola and the price is $475!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Great story John. #It kind of reminds me of some of the A-5 Loar stories. #"where is the scroll, I don't want that", and it also reminds me of how smaller bodied Martins were received (pearl or no pearl)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Some interesting info is posted in this thread
1923 Service Manual

----------


## f5joe

> Here is H5 #76491. #Photo courtesy of our own F5JOE


Boy, that mandola smelled jus' right!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Thanks for the photo Joe, that one had been documented by serial number only previously.

----------


## mandophil(e)

Darryl/Dan:

Any news on the "twins"? It seemed like the owners were considering putting them on the market, but no news has come out on that.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I haven't heard anything. Will check on status

----------


## mandophil(e)

Thought I'd give everybody something pretty to look at this morning.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Yep..I love those. The later dainty fern and logo, combined with the Loar style reverse tuners. The prettiest in my opinion. Here's 86652 where the inlay is positioned a shade different

----------


## mandophil(e)

The two are very close. The one I posted is 86104, FON 9619. I bet they're from the same batch. After a set-up by David Harvey it is a killer mandolin.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Well, this thread has to have Lloyd's Loar from the Loarfest thread. Of note is gold hardware, apparently original gold F4 style tailpiece. It also has a Virzi, intalled in a serial number batch that usually does not have one.

----------


## danb

I'll get my shots of Lloyd's up in a bit..

Here's 71901 1/12/23

----------


## danb



----------


## danb



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## danb



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## danb



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## danb



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## danb



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## danb



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## danb



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## danb

Back to 75315.. Loar's Loar. I tried to correct some spherical distortion in this image from my odd angle/lens choice. The mandolin looks about right, but the case got bent by the correction (it's straight in real life!)

----------


## danb



----------


## danb

Pickguard.. note where Roger plugged the holes from the pickup volume/tone knobs. Originally Lloyd had a pickup fitted to the top that was non-functional when Roger acquired this instrument.

----------


## danb

TP cover is not the normal style 5 type, but shows remnants of gold plating

----------


## danb

Gold-plated tuner plates too..

----------


## danb

Here's my top shot. Color corrected just about right I think

----------


## kudzugypsy

dan, i can see the virzi thru the bass f hole - were these placed more to the bass side, or centered with the bridge? if centered, are they really that large?

i think that is great that rodger brought along THE loar - its a great story on how he tracked it down and finally came to own it. who knows what would have happened to that instrument, esp with LL passing away in the early 40's and him having no children - for it to stay in LL's wife's possession all those years....i DOUBT many of you loar owners would find that to be the case these days. (ie, your wife/heirs not cashing out asap)

interesting about the electronics. that was WAY ahead of its time. this could very well be historically important not only for being LL's personal mando, but even one of the first electricfied instruments. wow - take that les paul.

----------


## danb

they are centered.. check the loarfest thread for a pic of one "outside"

----------


## stevem

Wow. The quality of those pics is incredible. (Nice loar too...)

----------


## jim simpson

Dan,
The scroll looks pretty nice on that Loar but couldn't you take a black Sharpie and touch that baby up?

----------


## f5loar

What and ruin 80 years of character? It's the ultimate DMM.
That mandolin had so much class.

----------


## mandoJeremy

What causes the grain to show up in the wear so bad in the front shot of the scroll? Monroe's was like that I don't really understand why it looks that way. I know the strap causes it but you would think the finish wouldn't show the spruce's grain so much. It even still has the color in places but still has the ridges. Does this question make any sense at all?

----------


## danb

sure. ridges are tougher, stuff in-between less so, so that's how they wear

----------


## Charlie Derrington

Actually Jeremy, The wear on the back scroll is probably the strap and on the top scroll from a pick/fingernail. Dan's right, the softer grain between compresses easily, the harder grain lines don't.

Charlie

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

OK folks. The "coup de gras" "sp" for Loarfest. Pat Sauber was kind enough to let me download these photos from his camera. He had taken these a while back when the A5 "visited" him. Thank-you Pat, these have to be the best pictures ever taken of the A5

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

more

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Last (for now)

----------


## jasona

I want that mandolin.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Another

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

another

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

last for now. Note how the peghead has angularity only at the shoulders, the end it cut square like snakeheads of the period. Another interesting note is the triple bound face of the peghead. This attribute did not show up for another 5-6 months on F5's and used the wider white binding when it did. Another observation: note the offcenter neck installation in the face on shots. This is an attribute of F5's and is usually not so prominent in typical A-models of the period

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

ok, one more closer on for the face

----------


## HoGo

> they are centered.. check the loarfest thread for a pic of one "outside"


Dan, are you sure about this?
The feet were cut shorter on the treble side to compensate for the tone bar assymetry, but I believe that was not enough to center them exactly as the difference in tone bar position was too large to compensate for.
I wasn't there, I'd like to hear more about this...
Adrian

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

I agree with HOGO. #They were close but not exactly centered. #They had to be a bit closer to the bass side as the tone bars are. #Check the Virzi pic on the Loarfest thread. Page 2. They were trimmed, but likely not enough

----------


## danb

Sorry, I didn't mean to say they are exactly centered, just not wildly off-center. They "ride the tone bars", though not exactly.. original question I interpreted as being "are they under the bass fhole" instead of "Are they exactly centered"..

----------


## markishandsome

Which way is the neck angled? I remember hearing that on the Fs the angling made it closer to the scroll, but the way the strings break at the bridge makes it look (to me) like this one is angled the other way.

----------


## Ken Waltham

Man' I wish they'd put the pickguard back on that mandolin! It's getting some nasty wear on it.
Those tuners are EXACTLY like the ones I have here.
Cool.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Here is a little tease for the day. More info to follow

----------


## danb

Tickle tickle!

----------


## danb

Here're more from supergrass.. Tony Williamson's or the Rybka"

These are using some new tricks I've picked up for color calibration, hopefully they are a hair more accurate than some of my others

----------


## danb



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## danb



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## danb



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## danb

Finally, some good honest patina!

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## danb

Don't forget the driver!

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## Jim Hilburn

You know, I'm backing up a bit but #71901 at the top of the previous page has a very unusual peghead scroll. Is there a chance this is a repair or is it the way it was made?

----------


## rbmando

Jim, you have a good eye! The peghead on 71901 was broken and repaired 20+ years ago.

----------


## mandophil(e)

Sure wish you'd reconsider Darryl. This is your baby! A whole lot of us appreciate everything you've done to raise everyone's awareness of these great mandolins.

----------


## mandoJeremy

I know exactly what you're talking about Darryl and I happen to very much agree with you. I do wish you would reconsider posting in this one though because I don't think ANYONE knows as much about Loars as you and Charlie Derrington. Your info is always appreciated by me and I'm sure many others here.

----------


## mandopete

Looks like a post got deleted.

----------


## f5loar

And I thought Bush was the only one listening in on my phone calls. Looks like we got censorship here too! Darryl can't just tease us with a newly discovered '22 like that and then be wiped off the face of the cafe!

----------


## jasona

> And I thought Bush was the only one listening in on my phone calls.


Hey! Maybe ole Sammy wants your Nudie suit!

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

That is correct, I deleted the post. #I received at least ten emails and PM's about it. #Thank-you to those that care about this thread and the concern voiced about some of the things happening. #Let's keep it centered on fact, display of Loar attributes and news that may be worth posting.

Here is a Loar pickguard bracket. #This plastic bracket is quite difficult to reproduce accurately due to the thickness of the different layers. #The nuts are also unique and have to be custom made for a reproduction to look correct. And the weird, thick, beveled washer which gets lost very easily is just about irreplaceable. #I've not seen a repro of any sort that is close enough to pass muster.

The June 1, 1922 Loar has a prototype metal bracket mounted to the top. #This was the first bracket of any sort that ventured away from the side clamp. #Only the Style 5 utilized the layered plastic bracket until all clamps and plastic brackets were replaced with a metal ones similar to the plastic one. This occurred at different times for a few models, but is generally around 1925.

----------


## bluesmandolinman

uuffff he is back

----------


## f5loar

Makes you wonder if that bevelved washer was just standard back in the 20's and they just grabbed one or was it designed just for the F5. Although it might be cost prohibited I'm sure somebody could get you an exact reproduction on that washer. 
Glad you saw the light Darryl! Welcome back!

----------


## danb

Some paperwork.. First one is a detail from Darryl's Style 5 brochure..

----------


## danb

Close up of Lloyd

----------


## danb

The cover of the brochure

----------


## danb

The two little labels..

----------


## danb

A new world..

----------


## danb

Finally, kindly on loan from F5loar, here are a couple more teasers from the service manual. Rather than risk scanning it, I did entirely passive tripod photos of it, so there is a tiny bit of perspective skewing. As far as we know, this is the *only* copy that exists

----------


## danb

.

----------


## danb

.

----------


## danb

.

----------


## danb

.

----------


## danb

.

----------


## danb

.

----------


## danb

Pushing the virzi..

----------


## danb

While we're on Virzis.. uncovered by Bruce Harvie..

This is an endorsment letter from Lloyd

----------


## danb

page 2.. count the Guarneri! From what I could research on the net, Heifetz called his Guarneri (known as "The David" or "the Heifetz Guarneri" now) "the violin". It'd sure interest me to find out if one of the most famous violins of all time was at one time fitted with a virzi!

----------


## danb

I'm prepping some new stuff to showcase catalogs, paperwork, brochures, ads etc on the archive, quite a bit of content to add there- the service manual will show up in it's entirety there soon (lots about banjos though!), as well as some better versions of the style 5 brochure snippeted here.

Lots of nuggets of information in that book, including part numbers and descriptions of the original strings, picks, and other doo-dads that came with a new Gibson.

----------


## Spruce

This thread should be turned into a book....

----------


## MML

Looking foward to it Dan, your efforts are greatly appriciated

----------


## Brier

A Quart of Gasolin! Wow!

----------


## Michael Lewis

I don't think modern gasoline would be apropriate. With diferent techniques and more sophisticated equipment the refiners now extract much more "gasoline" than they did in the 1920s. It may work well enough in an internal combustion engine but the chemical make up is quite different now. But it MIGHT work, so YOU try it on YOUR Loar.

----------


## Daniel Nestlerode

> I don't think modern gasoline would be apropriate. 
> 
> But it MIGHT work, so YOU try it on YOUR Loar.


And use benzine only if you have donor organs lined up at some point in the future. That stuff is toxic.

I'm sure there are cleaning solvents that have fewer or no detrimental consequences to your health.

Personally, I like the stuff that Bruce Petros has come up with.

Daniel

----------


## f5loar

I would think to remove finger smudges from your Loar just a little spit and rub off with your Tshirt would get'er done!

----------


## Jason Kessler

Well, Hendrix occasionally used lighter fluid...

----------


## f5loar

That would be for a lacquer finish!

----------


## Jim Hilburn

Actually, lighter fluid will probably work fine as a cleaner for both lacquer or varnish finishes...as long as you don't ignite it.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71059 #This owner has just recentl;y discovered what he has. #This is a wonderful looking instrument

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

next

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

so cool

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

again

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Oh yes, the very light finish...what a thing to deal with from a finishing standpoint. #I believe that is why they got darker and darker from a corporate $$ time standpoint

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

last..see mandolinarchive.com

Note right angle miter to the FB binding. This is only seen on some '22's

----------


## johnwilson

Dan,

Your new "color corrected" posts are just wondereful. The prints are Cremona brown and don't show even a hint of F-4 redness. Thanks for the extra effort to really preserve the color as it should be.

et al:

When do we expect to hear more about the recordings made at Loar Fest?

----------


## danb

Thanks John, I'm glad I finally got that trick figured out. Recordings.. That's a question for Ken C! The good stuff (ie not my hobbyist ones) were done on stage with Mike Compton and John Reischman doing the tasting

----------


## danb

November 28, 1922 Lloyd Loar Gibson F5 Mandolin #71059

----------


## mandophil(e)

Anybody have a chance to play it yet?

----------


## MML

Interesting tuners on 71059, are they originals?, but the windings of the strings bother me

----------


## danb

Yes, arrow end tuners don't show up on the very first Loars or snakeheads..

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Dan is absolutely correct. #The first Loars had wriggle end tuners and they were splayed out at the top. #There are several anomolies that exist regarding how the arrow ends came into play and how the inlay changed to account for it. #But, the June 1, 1922 Loar is "right".. the others (later '22's are not )if that is how we choose to look at it) The arrow ends and "normal" positioning did not show up until Jan/Feb 23

----------


## Spruce

_"Note right angle miter to the FB binding. #This is only seen on some '22's "_

That is so cool...
Never noticed that one...

Yet another quirk...

Man, 71059 certainly has a vibe...

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

> _"Note right angle miter to the FB binding. #This is only seen on some '22's "_
> 
> That is so cool...
> Never noticed that one...
> 
> Yet another quirk...
> 
> Man, 71059 certainly has a vibe...


Yep..a detail seen generally only on Nov 28, 22's and only the exceptionally light colored ones

ARE WE BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK/PAGE NOW....COOL

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

71062 SHARES MANY SAME TRAITS

----------


## ShaneJ

That recent discovery is one gorgeous mandolin. I REALLY like the lighter burst. I like to see the wood. The back is awesome. That's gotta be one happy owner!

----------


## f5loar

It would be safe to assume this mandolin has not been in bluegrassers hands ever! If those photos had smell to them you would be able to really smell that "loar smell" in that that one. There's probably enough of the smell in that one for Gibson to can some of it and spray it inside several dozen DMMs.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

As you may can see, 71062 had what was once was considered the "death crack". A crack originating near the tailpiece and projecting toward the bridge. This was the case fr many years.

That picture was taken at Gruhns in about 1980, and that crack is now fairly easily repaired (if it is fairly clean and not a re-repair)

The mandolin in question has been successfully repaired and the crack does not devalue the instrument beyond any normal means.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

The owner tells me that his parents bought the mandolin from an estate sale in the late '50's or very early '60's. The mandolin did not have a case at the time. The owner says that the mandolin layed on his parents piano as "decoration" for many many years.

It has been under the bed since in some sort of newer, but probably '60's case that his dad bought since.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

For SJennings..we do not have many documented pics of the 22's, but they are light and yes many think they look great.

Another shot of 71062, not the mando of the hour, but I think they look the same, as these shots were in hot sunlight

----------


## Glassweb

Hey Tommy, I think you're onto something with your idea of creating a "Loar Cologne" of sorts. That smell sure makes ME horny, but mostly for another Loar!
We could call your concoction "Old Loar"... or "Old LLoyd"... or "Eau de F-Hole"...
Maybe you and Big Joe and Charlie D can get this one moving... sign me up for the first bottle! {:o)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

One last thing before turning in tonight. #Notice how on both of these 22's the "burst" seems to follow a line that indicates the tailpiece was on during the procedure, or some portion of the finishing stage. #This is very interesting, as most of my "finish gripes" have to do with maintaining enough clearance above the tailpiece area to look correct. #23's are a bit darker and this aspect is more clearly defined. The "burst" MUST center around the bridge, and the finisher must know where the bridge is going to be in order for the the finished instrument to look right. #Some may look at this as a minor detail, but it is very specific for Loar mandolins. #They had a "center point". #It only varied with regard to diameter/size. #Again. maybe not a big deal, but I don't see this being adhered to or addressed with todays best instruments if the emphasis is on "Loar spec"

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

And again, I post pics of 73992 as reference point. Rarely does any company or individual leave enough "dark burst" above the tailpiece tip area (as is needed)

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Just my ramblin on details.....so many are so difficult to do or attain..but again, Loar sunbursts are right over the bridge 99% of the time. #This one is at least an inch or so low, and does not have the Loar balance, albeit it is one of the best I've seen.

----------


## GTison

is that last one a modern Master Model or a Loar? (Shine, fret position, Scoop, finger rest shape, nice saddle, color) but the label looks like it says '23. I noticed that about many of todays sunburst as well. Another thing that I don't like is a straight line across near the end of the finger board. And some of the Loars have some rather straight line coloration too.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

Agree. But draw your own conclusion on the mando above. Notice how I tactfully photoshopped the tailpiece cover

----------


## GTison

I did notice that

----------


## Ken Waltham

One thing that kills me with the MM's.
Notice the way wierd angle that the scroll ridge takes off on. Compare this with all the Loar shots, including Darryl's right above.
They just don't do that. And I have never liked the colour. Totally wrong all the time.
I don't mean to be down on these modern Gibsons, I think they're great, but, these are easy fixes.

----------


## Darryl Wolfe

"And some of the Loars have some rather straight line coloration too. "

Yes, as a matter of fact, a keen eye can often ID pictures of Loars with no serial number noted and even old catalog shots from the shape of the sunburst. #The is usually some straight line swipe or anomoly present. #Note how mine has a swipe above the bass side of the bridge at the f-hole and a "pointer" below the treble side near the tailpiece. #So, as seen in this quite different picture, the mando can be ID'd. This is how we attributed one Loar to Dave Appolon. (along withe fact that it had an aluminum bridge top)

----------


## f5loar

I hope Big Joe is reading all these little details about the new vs. the old. Exact duplicates they are not. And really no two Loars are the same in the sunburst patterns.
Darryl is right, a photo can be matched up to figure out serial number. That's one good reason if any of you Loar owners are out there and your Loar happens to go missing if it turns up with no labels or serial number having it on file with Darryl can ID the mandolin to photos. I've said there are about 50 Loars that are known about but not documented on Darryl's list. Owners want to remain annoymous or just don't keep up with in the know to today's happenings. It's not too late to get on the list and you can always keep your name private through Darryl.
If you notice most of the Loars listed on the archives with photos say owner unknown.

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## Glassweb

One thing for us all to keep in mind when we compare the Loar era F5's to the current models is that the current "Gibson" company is in no way, shape or form THE Gibson company that was responsible for the creation of the modern day mandolin and the F5. In the early 1900's, America was overtaken with mando-mania and Gibson's raison d'etre was to produce and promote the worlds finest mandolins. This is what the original company did and they did it EXCEEDINGLY well. We all know that Gibson has been sold and changed hands and direction many times since those early days... and so it's kind of foolish to think that the current owner is going to put all of his company's resources into mandolins. I'd wager that mandolins are only a small part of Gibson's total business.
I agree with Ken Waltham, Tommy and others in their assessment of the current F5 line. While the ones I've played recently sounded quite good, the fit, feel and finish in no way resembles the Loar era instruments. Of course, the current Gibsons are better now than they've been in ages... so at least they're trying. Then again, maybe in fairness I should fly down to Nashville and have Big Joe and Charlie show me how wrong I am!

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## SurebetVA

Glassweb, you might find this interview with Gibson's current CEO interesting. No Mandolin content but a lot of discussion on quality. USA Today article Gibson

sorry to stray from Mando topic. This was in yesterday's USA today I think.

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## danb

OK, here's a very-frequently-requested mandolin archive feature.. an automatically generated page that shows all the most recent additions, updated listings, and listings that have recently had pictures added.

This is also a good way to help out.. if there are new images posted here that don't show up in my log, I probably missed them!

More to come as I work on a redesign to make the database easier to find stuff in..

Mandolin Archive Update Page

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## MML

Dan, thats a super cool feature. You are really spoiling us!

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## mandoJeremy

It's hard to judge by this picture but I think Gibson got the coloring and centering of the sunburst and all pretty close on my Distressed Bush Model. They didn't do it in the normal "Bush Burst" and it looks like all the DMM's near the same date that I have seen. The MM picture above that Darryl posted is at least a year or two old and they have changed even since then. Mine has the right color in real life, I just don't have major photo skills.

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## mandoJeremy

This one shows the color a little better too. Much closer to Loar coloring.

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## Professor PT

> Glassweb, you might find this interview with Gibson's current CEO interesting. No Mandolin content but a lot of discussion on quality. USA Today article Gibson
> 
> sorry to stray from Mando topic. This was in yesterday's USA today I think.


Ah, he talks about the price increases. According to him, doubling the price increases volume. Hmmmm. Okay, off topic a bit--back to our Loar conversation.

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## Jonathan James

That's a beauty Jeremy.

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## Kevin K

Jeremy,
Did you go with a red spruce top too?

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## mandoJeremy

Yes I did. I don't want to hijack this thread though. You can see this mando under the Post a Picture section - "My New Distressed Gibson". So there you have it.

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## johnwilson

One place to shop for "Loar cologne" is Demeter, a New York based company that sells scents of all kinds. "Fireplace" was disappointing but "Mildew" made my new case eighty years old with just the press of the atomizer. I haven't tried "Leather" yet but it's been recommended. Ozone fans may want to try "Lightening" and there are "PG" fragrances like "Sex on the Beach." Try the internet for good prices and some dealers actually have sampler displays where you can take a whiff on them (with apologies to Ralph Rinzler).

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## Darryl Wolfe

Hi John...I've been to that site, but couldn't figure out what to order..ha

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## danb

getting even further off the topic.. but a lot of the "Loar Smell" is basswood. Jamie Wiens once told me that he singed some basswood kerfing on a belt sander, and WHOA.. instant old mandolin scent..

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## Glassweb

C'mon Big joe... you gotta jump on this "Old Loar" cologne train... after all, according to your CEO Gibson is moving towards the "Lifestyle" biz. Gibson cologne is a must(y)! Take some basswood, add some mildew... a bit of gasoline and Voila! OLD LOAR

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## johnwilson

Now that we have the recipe for the official Gibson mandolin polish, what about sharing some of your best guesses as to the the original stain and finish material formulas and proceedures? Did I miss a Loar era thread on this buried elsewhere?

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## Darryl Wolfe

The ultimate in Loar smell. Photo by Pat

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## Darryl Wolfe

73006. Photo by Pat

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## Darryl Wolfe

73006 pic by Pat

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## Darryl Wolfe

73006 by Pat

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## danb

> Now that we have the recipe for the official Gibson mandolin polish, what about sharing some of your best guesses as to the the original stain and finish material formulas and proceedures? Did I miss a Loar era thread on this buried elsewhere?


It's known

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## danb

Maybe

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## Darryl Wolfe

73006. Pic by Pat. Serial number in ink with some of the characteristics of Loars handwriting. Fairly light finish and well defined spruce grain

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## Darryl Wolfe

closer..let me add that it certainly appears to be in ink and not the long vertical broad pencil strokes we usually see

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## Darryl Wolfe

closer yet

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## Moose

Hey Darryl - Beautiful pics! - I think I'm gonna' go home an' punch my DOG out!!### (naaa!!, he love's it!!) - Moose.

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## Ken Waltham

A short comment on the Bush model mandolin.
I discovered a very fine example, all original, right here at home. I owned it for a couple of years, and it was very close in number to Hoss.
It's colour was nothing like the modern ones.
Sorry, that's just the facts.

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## mandoJeremy

You're exactly right Ken and I never said the Bush models were colored like the '37's and '38's at all. I said that mine had the Distressed MM finish on it and not the typical "Bush Burst" finish. Bush burst is what Gibson calls the color on the new Sam Bush models and they don't say it's the color that Hoss originally was. I was also making the point that several DMM's that were built close to when my Bush was completed look the exact same as my Distressed Bush Model and that the color on it (and the new DMM's) were closer to Loar color than the older MM's that Darryl posted a picture of. My Distressed Varnish Bush is NOT a typical Bush model mandolin because of the varnish, the distressing, the COLOR, the woods, etc. So sorry, there are the facts as I stated them before and I hope they are clearer this time.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Way to go Jeremy. I know that. In fact there is no way to truly say what a "Bush" model should look like. In some ways of looking at it, "Hoss" is a screwed up '30's F5. Does that make Sam Bush's mando worth less, NO, does that make a mint 30's F5 worth more NO. So go figure. It is similar to the theory that Monroes mandolin was a messed up July 9 Loar. I respect your ambition to pull off what you have received from Gibson, and the way you tailored it to what you wanted

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## mandoJeremy

Thanks Darryl and now back to Loars!

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## Darryl Wolfe

Agree..and I just happened to be here. #I'll post some 30's F5 pics along with Bush mando pics when I get them together

cheers

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## f5loar

Darryl, I sent you a few photos of 73005 with no TP so you can compare to Ronnie's 73006. His is just a shade darker but very similar overall. And serial number in ink too.

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## danb

There are more A5 pictures from Pat. Here're my favorites:

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## danb

Here's the one Charlie brought to Loar fest, though I sure wish I'd taken better pictures..

12/20/1922 #71629

(the one I took after this without the ruler in it is blurry!)

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## danb

Big...

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## danb

I've also updated the Ronnie McCoury Loar, the A5, and more images of 71629 tonight..

Links to all recently updated listings

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## danb

71634 was a big hit at Loar Fest. Mike Compton said "I don't like Loars for the most part. I like this one".

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## danb

Jamie got a better shot..

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## Ken Waltham

I never noticed that your post re the Bush Distressed model was a custom finish.
That's fine, I was merely referring to the inaccuracy of colour in modern Gibsons.
I think it's great that you got what you wanted, and more power to you.
As for mint, original examples being worth more, they will be every day day of the year. All early F5's have moved beyond the utility level, and are now in the commodity range. I really wish this were not so, but, that the case in the last few years.

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## Michael Lewis

71634 has a more pronounced recurve than what I have seen in other Loars. Were the early ones all that way or is this just an anomaly?

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## danb

Michael- that's interesting. Hmm, it's farily well-travelled to festivals.. Do you carry a hacklinger with you along with that wonderful portable workshop you have?

If I could figure out a reasonably standard way to present graduation charts, it'd sure be fun to add those to the archive.

Coming soon: CT scans of a '26 F5 !!

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## mort

what kind of tailpc. is that? or is it just coming off?

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## danb

Just slightly loose

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## danb

For your viewing pleasure, here is the 1923 Gibson Service Handbook in its entirety. Thanks kindly to the owner for lending me this booklet. I'll let him speak up if he'd like to 

Lots of fun stuff to read there!

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## Darryl Wolfe

> 71634 has a more pronounced recurve than what I have seen in other Loars. #Were the early ones all that way or is this just an anomaly?


The early Loars had several traits that make them look a bit different. The recurve and/or the way the binding transitions gives them a sharper edge look. The scroll work is almost invariably sharper and slightly pronounced in height. And of course the light finish.

I'll open up this can of worms by saying, only as THEORY, and FODDER for possible discussion and not even hard opinion that: the possibility exists that a completely different set of individuals may have produced or participated in the early ones, those made up until about May. They all have the appearance that a violin maker worked on them. I do not see some of these nuances on F4's or other instruments of that particular period.

They have distinctive wood, distinctive finishes, generally sound brighter, tend to come apart more easily and have carving nuances not seen in the rest.

Go figure again, once more

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## Ken Waltham

I would agree. As for the reason, I'm certainly not sure.
My own personal theory, in regards to F5's in general, is that the guys on the floor had a lot more to do with them than they were given credit for. I believe imigrants, from Italy in particular, who grew up in the violin culture, perhaps even tenured at a shop from boyhood, had a lot to do with the development of the F5.
This is TOTALLY speculation on my part, but, I can see the designers, Loar, Hart, etc, having these ideas, and the fellows on the shop floor having an immediate understanding of how to implement it, F holes, finish, bridge in the middle, Stradivarious arching.. the whole thing.
Agreed also that they sound brighter, and usually louder. They are primarily 1/4 sawn, again more violin like, and, my personal fave.
I think one possible reason, and the one that makes the most sense to me, for the change, is simply economics. 
Gibson was in financial trouble, and things kind of went downhill. I believe that's one reason why the next ones were primarily slab cut. Easier, cheaper.
I think that the early ones MAY be the best ones, as a group.
Ken

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here is an example. Quartersawn, light finish. Find an F4 that has this wood. This is 71634

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## Darryl Wolfe

71059. The ridge of the scroll is higher, and this funky greenish binding does not show up on F4's

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## f5joe

Ken, we Italians appreciate all the positive speculation that's out there. Lloyd Loar was, indeed, an Italian immigrant. Unfortunately, he felt the sting of quasi-nationalism and ended up changing his name to Anglo-ize it.

Lloyd Loarelli, yep .................. a great Italian American.

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## MML

Is that true, about Lloyds last name? or are just mess'n?

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## Michael Lewis

Gentlemen, thanks for the insight. It just keeps geting better.

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## Ken Waltham

Well, hey, what do you think Albert and Julious Bellson's real name was....? It wasn't Bellson.

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## f5joe

Bellsonelli, according to my records.



............. hey, just funnin' here.

But it's wonderful to believe that Italian-Americans may have contributed.

f5joebalogne

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## Darryl Wolfe

ok.ok. #I tossed it out there for thought, not geneology. 

Again, I'm not stating that I believe this is the case, but it does have some indicators that suggest the possibility. #Remember, Gibson smothered their ads with references to Stradivari principles on the F5, and the new "varnish" so it bears investigation whether they may have outsourced a bit of expertise or brought some individuals into the company for a specific purpose

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## JEStanek

Handel tuners of assumed German origin debunked -maybe- and now the Loar Italian connection! I love this place!
Jamie

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## mandophil(e)

A great shot of Monroe and his Loar. The poster is from 1958, the photo is quite a bit earlier than that.

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## Bill Halsey

> Well, hey, what do you think Albert and Julious Bellson's real name was....? It wasn't Bellson.


Julius lived a few blocks from me in Kalamazoo. We were fairly well acquainted, and on one occasion while visiting in his office in the 1970s, he told me his family name was Belsoni. May have had or two ll's or two nn's; he just mentioned it in passing without spelling it. And, of course, he said it was changed because of the stigma of immigration. Wonderful gentleman and a fine classical mandolinist; loved to give impromptu tours of the factory. The employees at Gibson obviously held Julius in very high regard.
BTW, Julius preferred the sound of his F-4 over any F-5.

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