# General Mandolin Topics > General Mandolin Discussions >  How long does it take

## pinky57

How long does it take the average person to become competent on the mandolin? Basically, 2 years ago I had never even touched a mandolin.I never had any music lessons of any kind, and totally lack any natural talent.I am pretty persistant.  Now, after 2 yrs of private lessons, I can pick tab to songs I know, throw in a few chords now and then, but that's about it. I practice about an hour every day and I am getting a bit discouraged.  :Crying:

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## JEStanek

I don't know the answer to your question.  I've had a mandolin for longer than you (since 2001) but I don't play that often and haven't had time for private lessons since 2004.  I have realistic goals for not playing too much.  I know what it will take to get to the next level, I just haven't been putting in the woodshed time to get there.

You might want to reevaluate your goals with your instructor.  Set goals like learning scales in the different keys, understanding how chords are formed rather than just learning some inversions, knowing your fingerboard like the back of your hand.  Those things along with playing with others (and more playing with others) is what I most often hear leads people to progress in their playing.

Good luck and when you get discouraged, remember we're not all meant to be a Thile/Dawg/Marshall/Monroe.

Jamie

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## Jason Kindall

I'm no expert - just 1 year on mandolin under my belt.  However, I noticed at about your stage some 15 years ago on guitar that I sort of hit a wall and got discouraged.  I started playing with friends (doesn't matter if you suck or not, just play) and found that the enjoyment of made me steamroll ahead.  Do you have a picking buddy or the availability of a intro-level jam group?

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## Jason Kindall

Oops - I hit it the same time as Jamie.  But look - he agrees!

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## Pete Hicks

Well, Pinky, you have chosen a tough instrument to learn.  It takes quite a while to develop the strength and chops peculiar to the mandolin.  I would recommend reserving part of your practice time for fun playing.  Try to pick out simple melodies in any key.  Learn the chords to the songs you do and learn to play the rhythm and the melody.
If you can find a group of other beginning level players to jam with, that would help immensely as well.  Check out the Abbot family website and their Toneway learning method.  Free lessons at playingbyear.com

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## Charley wild

Pinky, the idea here, is to be having fun. If I thought I was going to sound like a pro at a given time I wouldn't have started in the first place!

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## pinky57

I have no desire to play with other people. I tried a jam-style class for awhile, but was way too intimidated. My husband plays banjo and guitar, but we almost never play together. I am queen of scales, and do play my "fun" songs. My instructor is very into music theory, and I enjoy learning why something works, I'm just kind of stuck in a rut.

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## Mandolin Mick

Learning compentency on an instrument is an extremely personal thing. Some of it has to do with your natural giftings. I pick up new instruments extremely quickly, but I am a mechanical idiot. 

I think the most important thing is that you enjoy playing your instrument, not whether you're at an accelerated learning curve. If practice is a drag, you dread playing and it puts you in a bad mood, then music probably isn't your thing. But, if you enjoy learning a new musical skill or a new song, and you are slowly advancing, then keep plugging away!!!

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## yankees1

"If the only bird that sings in the forest is the one that sings the "best", than the forest would be a very lonely place!"  I try to keep reminding myself of this !! I have been playing almost four months and the better I get, the more discouraged I get as I keep wanting to improve even more and quicker! My problem is that I am playing pretty decent when by myself but when my instructor comes for a lesson I become more tense, nervous and freeze up and can hardly play! Just hang in there and enjoy the ride!

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## Mike Bunting

> Pinky, the idea here, is to be having fun. If I thought I was going to sound like a pro at a given time I wouldn't have started in the first place!


I gotta agree with Charlie here. It is not a competition, the reason a lot of us play is to seek refuge from that competitive world.

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## montana

Get yourself a version of Band in a Box and then you can jam along with and tune ever written at any tempo you want. You can slowly up the tempo till you are wailling then go to a jam sessions and burn them.

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## Dale Ludewig

Well, I'll go along with Band in a Box.  It's a great tool.  And to use it as I do all you have to know is some basic stuff.  Chords, tempo.  A style.  (or F style?)..

I've been playing mandolin, guitar, banjo, since the late 60's.  And now I'm 60!  Relax.  I disagree about mandolin being difficult.  Once you "get it", the way the strings are laid out, you can move around much easier than on guitar.  At least that's the way it seems to me.

After you play any instrument for quite some time, it will seem natural.  Perhaps not that way when you're learning.  A little story:  when I was learning to fingerpick guitar back about 1969 or so, I worked and worked.  Gads, my right hand just was a problem.  I continued to practice.  Trying to beat patterns into my head.  John Fahey.  Kottke.  Doc Watson.  Et al.  Then!  One morning I woke up and went to practice and my right hand had learned along with my brain.  It was a marvelous experience and I believe applies to many things we try to learn.  

Now I must warm up.  Band practice tonight.  8 feet from where I sit!   :Smile:

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## Greg H.

> I have no desire to play with other people. I tried a jam-style class for awhile, but was way too intimidated. My husband plays banjo and guitar, but we almost never play together. I am queen of scales, and do play my "fun" songs. My instructor is very into music theory, and I enjoy learning why something works, I'm just kind of stuck in a rut.


I would still suggest to play with someone else. Perhaps you instructor could suggest someone who is at the same level. Jam sessions (or jam classes) can be inimidating as there will always be someone else with faster fingers or who has learned other instruments (i.e. an adept violinist taking class mandolin class etc.). However, there's probably another mandolinist at the same level (and probably having the same frustrations) where you could both work on the material together (and the two of you would both end up better).

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## Dale Ludewig

I don't know why this so interesting to me.  But- the rut.  That's the clue that you've maxed out where you're at.  Keep pushing forward.  Then something will happen.  A new world of musical stuff will open up to you.  Then you keep at it.  And another rut will form.   :Smile:

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## banjoboy

> I don't know why this so interesting to me.  But- the rut.  That's the clue that you've maxed out where you're at.  Keep pushing forward.  Then something will happen.  A new world of musical stuff will open up to you.  Then you keep at it.  And another rut will form.


You have to learn to embrace the "ruts"  or "plateau". It's during that time when your brain, fingers, or whatever are processing what you are learning. Then at some point in the future you will have a moment where your playing abilities increase, perhaps what you may feel is dramatically. Remember, enjoy the journey.

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## John Soper

And you always have to remember that there is a reason it's called "playing" music.

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## chip

A friend of mine is a professional jazz guitarist. Has played and written tunes for major movie soundtracks, has numerous CD's out along with playing on some of the top jazz performers cd's. I asked him this question a while back. He's of the opinion that one has to put in at least 10,000 hrs of playing before reaching those aspired plateau's...Finding the tone your want, perfecting your technique etc. I believe it.... :Mandosmiley:

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## ...and Master of None

> I have no desire to play with other people. I tried a jam-style class for awhile, but was way too intimidated. My husband plays banjo and guitar, but we almost never play together. I am queen of scales, and do play my "fun" songs. My instructor is very into music theory, and I enjoy learning why something works, I'm just kind of stuck in a rut.


The best way to get out of a rut is to do something different.  In fact, isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting the result to change?  :Smile: 

So, go find some people to play with, and preferably not a jam-style class!  (Seriously, you need to be challenged by playing with musicians who are better than you are, and if you've been woodshedding as hard as you say then I doubt that any of the folks in that class were near your level when it comes to sheer motor skills.)

I played guitar and a little bass (and some NAF, tin whistle, and dulcimer) for ten years - I never progressed past a little noodling on electric and open-chord three-chord sing-along stuff on the acoustic.  I could run scales at blinding speed (well, reasonably fast if truth be told) - but that's not very musical!  Then, I started playing in a praise band at church.  I made more progress on acoustic and electric guitar (rhythm and lead) and electric bass over two or three years than I had in the previous ten.  Why?  Because I had to figure out ways to make what I knew work in a band of four or five guys playing real, live music.  Fortunately, they were very patient with me the first few months (and still are, I suppose, I'm realistic enough to know I'd lose weight really fast if I had to play for a living).

I think you've been in the woodshed long enough - it's time to start playing music!

John

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## mandroid

...  in Dog's years?  

There is a world of difference  between playing with a few friends  for hours,

  and paying a teacher by the half hour  for a limited focus on a few items.. 

the musical basics : sing what you want to play , then, 

 figure out how to make that sound on your instrument,

there's a a reason they call it a musical Voice..  :Popcorn:

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## LarryMando

first thing is - you have to be happy where you are, not happy in the sense of satisfied, but happy in how far you've come - and what you can do right now.   

second - once in a while we all have to figure out where we are right now (I find playing with other does that) - - but if you don't like playing with others, then I find it valuable to record my playing - don't stop if you make a mistake - make it a performance (recording) even if just for yourself.   Then play it back - or better yet, try to play along with your recording.

then try to figure out what YOU mean by 'competent' - everyone has a different interpretation of 'competent' - but knowing how you define it then you have a chance of figuring out how to get there.

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## Dave Weiss

I totally understand the "I have no desire to play with other people" concept. I've managed to keep my interest and kept myself from being discouraged by learning the songs that _I_ like, I've got a pretty good collection of mandolin music (tab) books and kind of cherry pick the songs that I want to learn. I know that I'm making progress because songs that I struggled with (and gave up on) come rather easily now. Try to find music that appeals to you and learn the techniques to make it sound right. Most of all have fun.

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## Jakester

It's good that you are concerned about being in a rut, however, I warn you, you will need to get used to that. What I mean is; it is very likely that you will never be satisfied with where you are at (the level you are playing at, that is) at any given time. That might sound daunting but it's actually a good thing.
Second, you said that you practice about an hour a day. This you will have to increase. You can be doing at least two hours a day, maybe even more. It doesn't have to be in one block. Fifteen minutes here and there will really add up over time. But you need to structure most of that practice time, to address the areas you feel need work.
A side comment; I hear a lot of folks saying you need to be "happy" about this or that. I don't agree with this. It's great if you are happy, but being driven and compelled to play will take you a lot farther.

Good Luck and hang in there it will come!

Jim

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## Bertram Henze

There can never, ever be a reason to be intimidated. The difference between a professional and a beginner is not that the professional makes no mistakes, but that the professional gets applause for his mistakes. 

Get together with others of approx. your skill level and play to make mistakes. Don't ever try to pretend you're perfect - perfection is a dead end, unreachable and boring. Mistakes are your guides to excellence, listen to them - and you'll find a way to make them sound like music.  :Mandosmiley:

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## rgray

> I have no desire to play with other people. I tried a jam-style class for awhile, but was way too intimidated. My husband plays banjo and guitar, but we almost never play together. I am queen of scales, and do play my "fun" songs. My instructor is very into music theory, and I enjoy learning why something works, I'm just kind of stuck in a rut.


Let me take a different approach than most others.  You say you don't want to play with other people.  Is that "ever" or is it your desire to reach a skill level where you won't feel "intimidated"?  Because if you have no desire to ever play with others then all the advice about playing with others to improve is of no use.  If you are merely chasing your own expectations of what a "competent" mandolin player should play like, maybe you need to relax and just have some fun.  I would go so far as to say consider putting the mandolin up for awhile and reevaluating your desire to play in the first place.  I would bet you pull it back down.

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## Darren Bailey

I do think mandolin takes more time than some instruments. I play guitar and flute and was able to get quite pleasing sounds from both much more quickly than from my mandolin. In my opinion it is one of those instruments that can sound very bad when played poorly, and yet my son has picked up guitar and after six months is reproducing some tasty licks from his favourite albums. It also depends on the kind of music you're playing, bluegrass for example does have a lot of notes to learn! It's worth the effort of course, because played well there isn't an instrument on earth that will gladden the heart of man quite like an eight-string.

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## Malcolm G.

I've played guitar since 1962 and banjo since 2007. Took up mandolin in 2008 BECAUSE it was (for me at least) difficult to learn.

I am a born ham and play with others as often as I can (or as often as I'm tolerated).

If you can find a group of amature musicians who don't presently have a mando player, you'll be welcomed, believe me.

Usually you'll wind up learning songs you wouldn't normally play on your own, and one song leads to another etc. etc. This may be one way out of the rut.

Speaking of "ruts", those kids at the olympics are blowing my mind as they snowboard in a rut - or is that called a half pipe?

 :Smile:

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## Earl Gamage

If you only practice one hour a day you will have to be more patient.  Jakester is the only other poster that mentions this. I think to make much progress you need two up to even four hours per day when possible.

It's also good to learn to be happy with where you are in your learning and enjoy it.  

The mandolin is not that difficult at least compared to guitar (please nobody get insulted, it does have easier tuning, four strings instead of six and no b to g jump).  

Keep at it :Smile:

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## chasgrav

I don't call them ruts.  I call them "ledges".  Folks who climb mountains hang out on them for awhile, as they prepare for the next burst of effort.  

Use the "ledges" to reinforce the knowledge you've gained so far.  (And I second the 'Band-In-A-Box' suggestions.  It's awesome).

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## Rob Gerety

> I started playing with friends (doesn't matter if you suck or not, just play) and found that the enjoyment of made me steamroll ahead.  Do you have a picking buddy or the availability of a intro-level jam group?


I agree with this and I had the same experience.  Also, some will disagree, but I think the best thing I ever did was to suspend the use of tab and standard notation and work at improving my ear. I'm still in that mode. It has made a huge difference in my playing.  I don't play classical music. Hang in there - you are at a plateau.   Something will happen and you will push through it and be back having fun.

The fact that you do not enjoy playing with your husband or others makes me think that is exactly what you need to do.  It is not easy, I know that.  But I think one characteristic of people that learn quickly is that they focus on the stuff they can't do, not the stuff they can do.  They figure out where they are weak and they work really hard at that one thing and then move on to the next weakness.  

I have a question - when you listen to music on your home stereo system with your instrument in your hands are you able to figure out the key and then the chords to a song you hear and play along with the stereo by the time the song ends?  Do you play chords often?

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## Benski

Hey...something you might want to try that I find to be a lot of fun: sit down in front of the computer with your mando (make sure you are tuned to concert pitch) and then log onto YouTube. Once there, do a search on "mandolin" or "Tim O'Brien" or "Sam Bush" or "Bill Monroe" or anyone in any person or style, for that matter, (try some Bach, do Allison Krause counry-western, try the Chieftains since St Paddy's Day is coming, try some jazz or blues, too...) and just noodle along with the video. Once that particular video ends, either redo it or bounce to another one suggested over there on the right hand side of the YouTube page. I can easily spend some happy hours doing this. Its amazing what you can pick up and I almost always have a great time. Its also amazing how much awesome stuff there is on YouTube.

And an added bonus: you can turn down the volume on the banjo players :Grin: 

Cheers and keep the faith!

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## rgray

Just noticed that you never said what type music you are playing.  I was wondering after seeing practice recommendations of more than 2 hours and even 4/day.  Heck, I work 4 days/week and with driving time I am away 14 hours/day.  On those workdays I can only "try" to get 30-45 minutes to work on new tunes and then sit back and pick those I know for pure enjoyment.  I'm not even trying to learn theory, scales, etc.  But then I am playing Celtic and, not to dismiss dedicated Celtic players with considerable talent, I am probably taking a much easier route than bluegrass.  But it seems to me that 4 hours/day of practice better either be for sheer enjoyment or the promise of a paying gig as the practice alone equates to a part-time job.

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## jim_n_virginia

> How long does it take the average person to become competent on the mandolin?


I once read a quote by somebody famous who said it takes 20 years to master anything!  :Grin: 

But seriously .... with music it's not the destination but the journey. Everybody has different abilities and aptitudes and if you practice diligently and regularly you'll get to the level you want.

If you focus on what you can do now and have fun with that and not worry too much about how good you want to be you'll sail right along.

If musical level was dependant on how long you been playing I've have been playing music since I was 10 and I can remember when the Beatles arrived in the US! LOL! By that thinking I should be picking like Bush or Grisman instead of relegated to the back porch pickin like I am!  :Mandosmiley:

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yankees1

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## 250sc

"with music it's not the destination but the journey" Absolutely. Every goal you reach just leads to another door to try to get through. If you keep working at it you never run out of new things to work on.

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yankees1

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## chip

[QUOTE=jim_n_virginia;769791]I once read a quote by somebody famous who said it takes 20 years to master anything!  :Grin: 

"But seriously .... with music it's not the destination but the journey. Everybody has different abilities and aptitudes and if you practice diligently and regularly you'll get to the level you want."

Well....I think it depends on what age you begin with. If your in your 30'-60 then your going to have a hard time getting to a level like the bigdogs..Most of the mandolin players I've followed started at early ages, 6-12. My aspirations would be to play as well as them but it's not going to happen. Finger coordination, muscle memory, no fear, etc. etc. is much stronger when your young. I practice at least 4 hours a day and have for years but I just can't get those ring and pinky to cooperate past 180bbm. You listen to Adam Steffey for instance and try to get that clean fast pickin and it's hard to emulate. Age alone is the factor when beginning, IMO...

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## Pen

What you're experiencing is quite normal.  I've found that improvement has come dramatically after long periods of none.  For example, my last jump came a couple years ago after I really learned the 4 chord shapes and how they (and the scales associated with them) are mapped out on the keyboard.  It took me forever it seemed - but when it clicked....

I echo the earlier posts that you should enjoy where you are.  If you want, aspire to improvement - that's admirable and many of us are in that same boat.  Just don't get bogged down in what you can't do.  Plenty of ppl just learn (I, IV, V) and that lasts them a lifetime of enjoyment.

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## chip

Enjoyment is one thing...competence= better enjoyment :Smile:

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## Rick Schmidlin

Mandolin rut, tell me about it.

But last night I spent two hours of praticing on my Collings D1 AV.

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## mandroid

Think of it as a block of hours, say a thousand ,  take it at 6 a day or a half per?

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## Capt. E

Perhaps you should look around for another instructor who isn't quite so much into music theory.  

I also have a tendency to just play for myself, but playing with others can be quite satisfying. An old-time group would probably be best, not bluegrass unless it is a beginner's slow jam. I find Celtic jams can also be a bit intimidating. I am lucky here in Austin to have numerous opportunities to play with a group. I have played with some people who were very intimidating, very critical over what I could NOT do (key of B etc), but most seem to support and enjoy whatever contribution I bring to the jam. The object is to have fun.

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## JeffD

Put the mandolin aside for awhile. Take a break. A week, a month, what ever. Relax and come back to it later.

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## fred d

:Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:  I started mandolin in 2005 no music training didn't even listen to music.  As a suggestion from my wife after a disabling injury. I tryed to learn for a year and a half got really sick ( 4 month in hospital ) messed around fo the next year or so ( around Dr apointments )  got more serious in 2007 tryed banjo, ukulele, slide guitar, trumpet, and back to the mandolin.  As of now I can play most chords in two possions on the fret board useing the Getting into Jazz book from mel bay.  I play with 4 diferent groups one I'm the worse player their two I can hold my own If I play chords and sing the other two are basic beginer groups and i'm one of the best. At my age 68 now in order to get the 10,000 hours and the time I have to play  I'll be 100 when I"m good.   Ok something to look forward to ( the oldest pro in nashvill ) Hold in their it WILL come and enjoy the jurney not the end besides when your the best what will you do??   Best of luck fred

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## lenf12

Your husband plays guitar. He's not only a life partner, he's a music partner. Why not get together with him a couple of times a week and just play some music? Surely he will have the patience to play along with you (assuming he's a more experienced player than you). You guys are married to each other for better or worse, etc. Adding music to your relationship will certainly help to make it better. I'm just saying............

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

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## Gelsenbury

Not that I asked the original question, but I really enjoyed reading this very encouraging thread. Learning an instrument is indeed a journey to be enjoyed. There's no point in suspending enjoyment until you reach the destination because you'll never get there. We all proceed at our own pace (whether we have 30 minutes, 1 hour or 2 hours per day to practise) and enjoy the nice sounds coming from our instruments, even if it's just the loveliness of a bright E note or a simple G chord.

I've only had my mandolin for less than three months, and never played any string instrument before. I suck at playing mandolin. Really badly. I can't even play eights properly, let alone chop chords, tremolo, pull-offs or any fancy stuff. My mandolin cost all of £66 at the shop. And yet my friends keep asking me to bring my mandolin when I visit, because everyone enjoys the music for being music, no matter how proficiently it is being played. 

(When I saw a colleague's band play at a local pub recently, they even asked me to join them at rehearsal next time. But I'm still a long way away from that. :D)

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## Merritt

How long does it take?

As we all know, there is no solid answer to your concern.  There are too many variables involved to predict when a player will become competent.  Besides, we all have different opinions about what competent is or isn't.

That being said, I read that your discouraged with your progress.  I suggest an approach something like this:

1.  Write down your goals.  Writing them down forces you to make some concrete statements about usually ambiguous wishes or desires.
2.  Make a plan to achieve those goals.  Develop a practice strategy that will set you up for success.  If you want to be better a reading music, then practice sight reading.
3.  Be prepared to practice things you can't do very well.
4.  Keep track of your progress.  When you acheive a milestone with a song (completely memorized, played through with no mistakes, or played live, high speed on the metronome, etc.), then jot down that milestone in a notebook or on the sheet music.  You tend to be your harshest critic.  Step 4 helps to provide evidence to the contrary and gets some positive thoughts going.

Other thoughts in no particular order:

Realize that many professionals consider an hour a day a minimum to just maintain the skill they've already acquired.  If they want to improve, they know they need to practice more than an hour a day.

If you keep playing the same scales, same chords, same songs, same techniques, etc., then you should expect the same discouraging results.  Stated another way, you're going to play the way you practice.

Get a teacher that can adapt and be interested in helping you achieve your goals - not just teaching you what the teacher knows.

I keep going back to the practice thing . . .  Take a good look at how you are practicing and have a purpose for each minute you spend in a practice session.  If you are noodling along to recordings, then realize that's what you are practicing - noodling.  That's probably not one of your goals, to be a good noodler.  Your practice time should directly support your goals.

I think most of us would admit that we have a tendency to wander and play stuff that makes us feel good during our practice time.  It's ok to do this, but just understand that it's not really going to help you improve.

If you aren't willing to be committed, disciplined, and purpose-minded with your practice time, then you should readjust your time to reach your goals.

OK, now that the harsh stuff has been said - I definitely agree with several of the posts about having fun and not being hard on yourself.  It's perfectly fine and probably more rewarding to accept where you are and just enjoy your time with the mandolin.

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## jim_n_virginia

[QUOTE=chip;769831 Age alone is the factor when beginning, IMO...[/QUOTE]

I don't know if it's the ONLY factor but I agree that it is an important factor.

Of course manual dexterity and the ability to absorb information is going to be a lot different between a 18 yr old and a 50 year old.

I have been told by several teachers that I respect and not just music teachers, that age has a lot to do with HOW you learn. Youth tends to just soak it up and and older students tend to learn through repetition.

 :Mandosmiley:

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## rgray

> Of course manual dexterity and the ability to absorb information is going to be a lot different between a 18 yr old and a 50 year old.


Jim,

It's awful nice of you to encourage the young'uns that manual dexterity and ability to absorb information is eventually going to get as good as guys our age.  What a swell guy!  :Smile:  

That is what you meant, right?   :Confused: 

On a side note and to your earlier post - don't sell yourself short.  I've heard you play.  And the back porch can beat a concert hall any day of the week. :Mandosmiley:

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## JeffD

> I have been told by several teachers that I respect and not just music teachers, that age has a lot to do with HOW you learn. .
> :


Youth are not distracted by the mortgage, the new boss, if the sump pump will be needed when the storm takes out the electricity, what did she mean by "forget it", should I start a health savings account, should I wonder if its an old truck or get a compression test and remove all doubt, ... ... ...

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## pinky57

Thanks for all the comments and advice, this forum is a great help. Sometimes just knowing that I'm not the only one with "issues" helps. My practice time is all I can squeak out in a day, full time job, family, laundry, cooking, etc. If I had more time to practice, I would. There is a great shortage of mandolin teachers in S FL, I already drive 70 miles to my weekly lesson. Maybe someday I'll be able to play with others, I just don't see that happening right away. I generally love my practice time and truly love my mandolins, so I'll just keep plugging away til I "get it".

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## zombywoof

I played my first gig on guitar in 1966 and I have made it all the way up to advanced hack.  I have been playing mandolin about a month now and don't think there is a level that accurately describes how truly bad I am.  

No real answer to your question.  Most folks I know will never feel they are as good on an instrument as they wanted to be bit are also not near as bad as they think they are.  

 If you are young, you have your whole life ahead of you in which to learn.  When you hit my age though, the time just ain't there so playing the mandolin for me is just something I do for fun.  Having more chutzpah than talent, I have already done some sitting in with my mandolin and really enjoyed myself.

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## Laird

I'm in my fourth year now, and I feel like I should be waaaaay beyond where I am, but those first two years I just strummed chords and sang with folks.  It's only during the last two years I've been learning to pick.  

Even though I'm feeling like I'm just starting to learn--and to be reminded of how far I have to go, it helps to play with people who are much better--I try to think of it in terms of incremental steps.  A year ago, I wouldn't try to take leads in any key but G, C, or maybe A; now I'll take a lead in any key (playing out of chop chords), even though it may not sound so great.  I have faith that in another year or two, I'll be playing those F# leads more cleanly and fluidly.  

But for me that push comes from playing with others (at a local jam) who are patient enough to put up with my current futzing around.  (Deadheads: remember those painful years when Bob Weir was learning to play slide guitar on stage?  We survived, and he finally figured it out!)

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## JeffD

> Most folks I know will never feel they are as good on an instrument as they wanted to be but are also not near as bad as they think they are..


And thank goodness for it.

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## SincereCorgi

> Youth are not distracted by the mortgage, the new boss, if the sump pump will be needed when the storm takes out the electricity, what did she mean by "forget it", should I start a health savings account, should I wonder if its an old truck or get a compression test and remove all doubt, ... ... ...


I'd also say that youth  kids, at least  are culturally permitted to play badly, which creates a more comfortable learning environment. It's very encouraging to be great-for-a-9-year-old, much less so to be great-for-a-55-year-old-who's-put-in-the-same-amount-of-time.

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## jasona

I've been working at about the same rate as the OP, and after 6 years I now have a measure of comfort with holding, and the basic picking mechanics of, the mandolin.

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## Mike Bromley

> I have no desire to play with other people. I tried a jam-style class for awhile, but was way too intimidated. My husband plays banjo and guitar, but we almost never play together. I am queen of scales, and do play my "fun" songs. My instructor is very into music theory, and I enjoy learning why something works, I'm just kind of stuck in a rut.


Respectfully, don't deny yourself the opportunity to play with other people.  Sure, it's intimidating, and nerve-wracking even, but like anything new, your feet need wetting slowly.  If you're worried about being perfect, join the club.  But playing with people is really, ultimately, the biggest blast...and soul food.

 :Mandosmiley:  :Popcorn:

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## terzinator

> Thanks for all the comments and advice, this forum is a great help. Sometimes just knowing that I'm not the only one with "issues" helps. My practice time is all I can squeak out in a day, full time job, family, laundry, cooking, etc. If I had more time to practice, I would. There is a great shortage of mandolin teachers in S FL, I already drive 70 miles to my weekly lesson. Maybe someday I'll be able to play with others, I just don't see that happening right away. I generally love my practice time and truly love my mandolins, so I'll just keep plugging away til I "get it".


I still consider myself a guitar player, but mandolin occupies most of my time now. I've played guitar my whole life, and never really felt like I was getting much better. I could make nice sounds, and noodle, and could sound pretty good when playing solos along with CDs. But playing with people was always a struggle. I didn't know any songs from beginning to end. All I could do was noodle.

When I started really getting into guitar for real, maybe three or four years ago now, I concentrated on really getting to learn songs, and melodies, and even singing. I had a buddy who is much better, and really liked playing together, and in jams... So I just figured, what the hell. It takes a while for a solo noodler to figure out how to play with others, but it's worth it.

I've never had more fun than I am having now. 

It's like if you only play solitaire, or only hit tennis balls against the practice wall, or only bang buckets of golf balls on the driving range. You might be getting good in some respects, but it's in a vacuum. There's a lot to be said for the pleasure of playing for oneself, but man, there's so much joy in playing with others. It's community, that's really what it is.

Maybe I missed it, but not sure what kinds of music you're playing. Folk? Bluegrass? Celtic? Old Time? Depending on where you live, there are usually annual festivals and weekly jams, in pretty much any genre you're interested in. Go to one without your instrument. (Or bring it and leave it in the case for a while.) See how much the talent varies. And watch how much fun everyone is having. Let them know you're a beginner and just want to get a feel of things. You'll be amazed at how accommodating and welcoming everyone is. "Jump in! The water's fine!" is how I see it. But nobody will push you off the dock.

If you feel like actually playing along, take out your mandolin and find the key and play some chords. (Stand in the back if you don't want to be "out there".) Listen to your instrument along with the others. You don't have to play a lead break if you don't want to. Just find the chords and hear how your instrument sounds in a group. You might start to play some notes from the scale, just to see what it sounds like. Eventually you'll be able to throw in little fills or grace notes from that scale. Someday you'll WANT to take a lead break!

As to the point in your post about "plugging away until you get it"... some speak of epiphanies... for others, it's more subtle. And it's not a destination; it's a journey. You can play great music before you think you're ready, I think. And that's what inspires you. You surprise yourself. And it gives you confidence to do it again. (Plus, you meet some great people along the way.)

On mandolin, for a while it was just two-finger chords for me. Then three-finger. Then I learned some scales. Then some four-finger chop chords. Then I learned how to make those scales sound bluegrassy. Now I'm learning doublestops and some tremelo. (And trying to incorporate it into lead breaks.) Trying to memorize some arpeggios. At our last jam, I felt like I was making all kinds of crazy mistakes as I was cobbling leads together, but on the recording (we record all our jams) it sounded pretty good. But the thing is, I wouldn't have been able to hear that "i got it" unless I was playing with others. Eventually, THAT "I got it" will be replaced with the next plateau, and the growing and learning and enjoyment and surprises will continue.

Chicken-Egg thing, I think. You don't want to play with others until you're ready. But you won't ever get ready unless you play with others.

Oh, and have fun.

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## Mark Gibbs

As a general rule, if your right handed look at the finger tips of your left hand. Are they founded or are they flat. If they are rounded you are probably not playing enough to get real good. I've noticed that great pickers have flat finger tips from the countless hours of practice.

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## JeffD

> Respectfully, don't deny yourself the opportunity to play with other people.  Sure, it's intimidating, and nerve-wracking even, but like anything new, your feet need wetting slowly.  If you're worried about being perfect, join the club.  But playing with people is really, ultimately, the biggest blast...and soul food.
> 
> :


I cannot agree with you more. And as a result, a good two thirds of eveybody I know today I met through music in one way or another.

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## pinky57

At 52 years old, I just don't have the comfort level of being able to play with others. I appreciate the support and will continue to work very hard at perfecting my skills. I don't want to be a professional musician, just be able to play my songs without screwing up. Some days are better than others for that. I play mostly bluegrass, with a few celtic and traditional songs thrown in. I just started taking some guitar lessons and that seems to be helping with my mandolin skills. Thanks again for all the kind words.

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## JeffD

> just be able to play my songs without screwing up. Some days are better than others for that. .


Words more true have rarely been spoken.  :Coffee:

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## Phil Goodson

> At 52 years old, I just don't have the comfort level of being able to play with others. I appreciate the support and will continue to work very hard at perfecting my skills. I don't want to be a professional musician, just be able to play my songs without screwing up.....


<Warning:  Long post.>

Pinky,

Four years ago at age 56, I had never touched a mandolin.  Sure, I'd strummed guitar a little through the years, but NEVER able to flatpick a lead.
July 2006: I ordered a cheap mando off the web to see if I really wanted to do it.  It felt good to me and within 6 months I bought a used but better mando.
I started learning chords and drove my wife crazy every night with my practicing.
After maybe 6 months, I pulled up a chair on the back row of a local jam and just strummed quietly & worked on getting the chop timed right.
Three more years have passed & I get together with a few other folks locally twice per week.  We play along with each other's songs and try a simple break.  Everyone is forgiving and encouraging. Honestly, every 3-4 months, I can look back and see that I can do more than previously.
Yeah, now I spend time learning all those scales, technique, fingerboard, theory, etc that all these guys talk about all the time.  But it's not necessary to have mastered all that to get great enjoyment from playing with others.

I'll never be a pro; don't want to be.  But I'm having LOADS of fun that I wouldn't be having if I hadn't ventured out to play with others and took a risk of embarrassment.  
What's the downside?  If I screw up, nobody dies; nobody is crippled; nobody starves.  The ABSOLUTE WORST thing that could happen is that I'm so embarrassed that I never go back to a jam again.  And that would merely put me back to where I was when I started.  No worse.
Without courage, many people live long safe lives with little joy.  A pity.

Go for it!   You won't regret it.  Honest. :Smile: 
Come on up to NC & I'll spend one hour prep with you and then take you to a jam where you'll have more fun than you ever thought you could have in a crowd. :Mandosmiley:

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## Jim

I have met most of the best friends I'll ever have through playing music with them so when the oportunity presents itself take it, it's only intimidating the first few times or maybe I should say it's ALWAYS intimidating the first few times.  As for the rut, My playing has been a series of ruts and when I feel I'm in one I start shopping for new instructional material. I't sometimes takes a few trys but sooner or later I find a book, CD, DVD magazine article, ect that helps get me to the next level.

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## Jill McAuley

> Without courage, many people live long safe lives with little joy.  A pity.


Well said and so true.

Cheers,
Jill

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## backwoodsborn10

it's hard for me to understand not wanting to play with others.for me that's what my woodshedding is for. the payoff is getting the opportunity to make music with others that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up.  you mentioned your husband plays also.i'm betting that he's pretty good and that would be someone to play along with and maybe not be so intimid :Wink:  :Wink:  :Wink: ating. also i get on the computer and find lessons and videos.find something diff than your norm  to build that fire back up! good luck!  jeff

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## fishtownmike

In the reality of it the problem is many who do practice a lot and get no where is because they really don't have a practice routine. You can sit there and practice scales and chords all day but you really need to start playing songs in a band situation. You don't have to be in a pro money making band but playing with others is the best way to proficient at an instrument...Mike

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## Bertram Henze

> Without courage, many people live long safe lives with little joy.  A pity.


I'd take it a step further: Without courage, people don't live at all, and safety or joy don't matter any more.

Since the OP mentioned her age - I don't see how age would explain anything. It is never too late to start living.
We are just talking about music here and having fun, but the approach to that is often a mirror image of the approach to life itself, therefore its importance cannot be overestimated. Excusing oneself with age sounds like "it will all be over soon anyway, so why bother?" That's the mood of someone standing on a 32nd floor window ledge gazing at the street below for one last time - I can't imagine a more pitiable attitude.

My statement to the OP is: get out there and play with people - not to be perfect, but to be alive! You have a right to do that, and nobody can hurt you more than you hurt yourself by not trying.

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## NotJethro

Pinky, at the risk of repeating advice that's been given many times on this thread, you are really doing yourself a disservice if you don't find someone to play with. I started playing mandolin this past June, and the single most productive thing I did was to find a regular partner. For the past three months, I've been playing a couple times a week with a colleague at work who accompanies me on guitar. I'm fortunate because her sense of timing is rock solid, and has the same expectations of me. This is a whole level above woodshedding - learning how to play mandolin in a performance context pushes one's  limits and accelerates the process far beyond sitting alone. At this point, we have an established repertoire of well over 20 tunes. Do I screw up at times? 
You betcha. Does anyone care? No. How do I feel when co-workers amble into the room when we're playing and compliment us? Great.  If you really want to improve, you owe it to yourself to find a music partner.

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## pkev

Hi there

Other avenues to pursue to keep you focused!

Composing
Arranging

Learn the skills to be creative with music..

concentrate on developing your tone, rhythm, expression, Dynamics etc

If you need to go back to basics then do it

Musicians have to be selfish, have a hunger and passion for the music they are playing and be prepared to make sacrifices...in time and effort

You need to believe in what you are doing, be committed and disciplined in your approach

My 2 cents

pkev

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