# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  Ditson Victory

## Tim Logan

In Bowlbacks 101 August Waters (sp?) describes the link below as a great orchestra instrument for dirt cheap. In my McDonald book I do not see anything about the quality of this instrument. Nor do I know anything about the seller. If know anything about the instrument or the seller can you chime in please? Thank you. Ad does not indicate if its restored.

http://www.stutzmansguitarcenter.com...lin%20sISI3550

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## MikeEdgerton

Ditson was a distributor, they didn't manufacture anything and they bought from multiple builders including Martin. That doesn't mean that instrument is good or bad it just means they might not all be the same.

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Tim Logan

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## brunello97

Looks to me like a Vega-made Ditson, in which case the quality should be quite good.
Hard to tell from the photos about the neck condition, but if all is well, that isn't really a bad price.

Mick

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Tim Logan

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## Martin Jonas

> Looks to me like a Vega-made Ditson, in which case the quality should be quite good.
> Hard to tell from the photos about the neck condition, but if all is well, that isn't really a bad price.


That would explain the bridge position behind the cant -- as far as I know, Vega were the only notable maker who put the bridge there by design.  In non-Vega bowlbacks, seeing the bridge there is usually a sign of trouble.

However, even though the bridge position may be correct if it's a Vega, the bridge itself doesn't seem to be original.  You can still see the outline of the original bridge's footprint on the soundboard, and it was a good deal wider and differently shaped than the current one.

Martin

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Tim Logan

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## brunello97

Good eye, Martin.  The bridge appears to be of the typology that Vega used...with the tall bone saddle but zooming in one can see the truncated ends of the bridge itself...which look like some replacement bridges I've purchased myself over the years.
Below is a Ditson "Empire" (from the Hegemony Series  :Wink: )  The bridge on this one appears similar to the one in shadow on Tim's.
I've owned a few Ditson bowls and the Empire I have now is quite a nice mandolin.  Very resonant like one would expect from a Vega.  
Mick

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Tim Logan

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## Eugene

I agree: this has some decidedly Vega-like quirks.  Design that places the bridge below the cant is all Vega.  For what it's worth, Vega seems to me to be the most consistently good sounding among U.S. producers of the Neapolitan type.

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Jim Garber, 

Tim Logan

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## brunello97

There have been some folks who (no surprise) attribute these to the Larson Bros. which for various reasons I believe to be misguided judgements. Some of these folks are people whose judgement I typically support wholeheartedly.  But sometimes mistaken information gets propagated. The Mayflower and Empire / Victory / Conquerer / Leland lines all carry so many similar attributes with what we see in Vega mandolins: bridge position, body and neck profile, neck to headstock transition detail.  

It's very hard to 1. imagine the small Larson's shop producing _all_ those mandolins (at such an early date) for a company out of Boston and 2. Why would mandolins they built on contract so closely resemble those of _another_ company (Vega, located in Boston) and not those they were supposedly making for local (Chicago / Milwaukee) labels (Lyon and Healy, Stahl, et al.)  

In an related example, the Martin bowlbacks and flatbacks, who they built for other labels, look just like the mandolins they built for themselves...as they certainly used the same molds, etc.

Not to hijack this thread with my ongoing Larson Doubting Thomas routine, but I thought I'd make a preemptive strike.... :Wink: 

Tim....let us know if you indeed purchase the Victory.  More questions and discussion will likely follow.

Mick

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Tim Logan, 

Tom Haywood

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## Eugene

As I offered to a gentleman who recently sold me a Vega-labeled Vega, "I'm always skeptical of Larson attributions without supporting evidence or some of their more obvious quirks. Because of their street cred, semi-fancy pieces are often oversold as 'possible Larson,' as I'm sure you've seen as well."

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Tim Logan

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## Tim Logan

My questions on this thread and other Classical Forum threads clearly expose my ignorance of most matters classical mandolin. When people with light years away knowledge and abilities chime in, it demonstrated a willingness to share that I really admire and appreciate. It is analogous to a kindergarten student learning math from an MIT professor! Anyway, moving on: Mr. Waters described this instrument as a fine orchestra instrument. This discussion leads me to hypothesize that all of the more familiar early American builders (Vega, Lyon & Healy, Martin et al) would be considered to build orchestra level BB instruments - meaning, to me, that professional musicians would not have a problem with performing on any of these mandolins. Please note that I am intentionally omitting arched and cylinder back instruments and am focusing on BBs. Yet, from what I can tell, the majority of classical performers use either an Embergher, Calace, or Wolle (or similar modern German makers, reproductions etc), when it comes to bowl backs. You do not see/hear videos and recordings with these American BBs. So I am wondering how these American BBs are viewed by the BB community as performing instruments? Again, thanks for your patience. Im not sure there is another resource in the world on these topics as valuable as this Cafe forum. Thank you,

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## Eugene

I think, in part, it's a generational thing, (1) that the North American tradition of building Neapolitan-type mandolins essentially died in the mid '20s.  Current players thus aren't connected to a living tradition.  (2) Also, all bowlback-type mandolins are relatively fragile.  Relatively few survive in a functional state without deliberate attention.  (3) Finally, the mandolin was hugely popular during its previous "golden era."  Most of the instruments made were built to appeal to the cheap tastes of a fickle, amateur population at large.  Without new professional-quality instruments being made, most to have survived will be those rather base pieces.

If you look at the historic recording industry, when the U.S. tradition was thriving, that bias evaporates.  North American professional players very often used U.S.-made instruments.  Pettine performed and (much past his prime) recorded with Vega.  Siegel, well, it's hard to say, but apparently endorsed and performed–recorded with Washburn and the initial Indiana incarnation of Regal.  Weekes on Brandt.  Etc.  Recently, Richard Walz's Mandolin Treasures from the Golden Era was recorded using an old Vega.  Chris Acquavella uses a German-type piece (as well as historic reproductions) and Julien Martineau a Roman-type by Brian Dean's Labrade.  Etc.

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August Watters, 

brunello97, 

Jim Garber, 

Tim Logan, 

Tom Haywood

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## brunello97

> I think, in part, it's a generational thing, (1) that the North American tradition of building Neapolitan-type mandolins essentially died in the mid '20s.  Current players thus aren't connected to a living tradition.  (2) Also, all bowlback-type mandolins are relatively fragile.  Relatively few survive in a functional state without deliberate attention.  (3) Finally, the mandolin was hugely popular during its previous "golden era."  Most of the instruments made were built to appeal to the cheap tastes of a fickle, amateur population at large.  Without new professional-quality instruments being made, most to have survived will be those rather base pieces.
> 
> If you look at the historic recording industry, when the U.S. tradition was thriving, that bias evaporates.  North American professional players very often used U.S.-made instruments.  Pettine performed and (much past his prime) recorded with Vega.  Siegel, well, it's hard to say, but apparently endorsed and performed–recorded with Washburn and the initial Indiana incarnation of Regal.  Weekes on Brandt.  Etc.  Recently, Richard Walz's Mandolin Treasures from the Golden Era was recorded using an old Vega.  Chris Acquavella uses a German-type piece (as well as historic reproductions) and Julien Martineau a Roman-type by Brian Dean's Labrade.  Etc.


Great post, Eug!

Mick

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## Eugene

Danke, Mick.  Mentally correct my spelling above to "Labraid," of course.

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## Jim Garber

> In Bowlbacks 101 August Waters (sp?) describes the link below as a great orchestra instrument for dirt cheap. In my McDonald book I do not see anything about the quality of this instrument. Nor do I know anything about the seller. If know anything about the instrument or the seller can you chime in please? Thank you. Ad does not indicate if its restored.
> 
> http://www.stutzmansguitarcenter.com...lin%20sISI3550


I am sure that Allen Hopkins will chime in here soon. He gave me the grand tour of Rochester for vintage instrument enthusiasts. Bernunzio is one and Stutzman is the other excellent store. They have been in business for many years, I believe now run by the son of the original owner. They have an amazing private collection of oddball vintage things that is right up my alley.

If you are interested, Tim, you can call them and I am sure they can talk to you with the mandolin in hand and answer all your questions. Hey in the old days before all this internet stuff, that's how music stores would work. People forget that you can call.  :Smile:

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Tim Logan

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## August Watters

> (1) the North American tradition of building Neapolitan-type mandolins essentially died in the mid '20s; (2) Relatively few survive in a functional state; (3) Most of the instruments made were built to appeal to the cheap tastes of a fickle, amateur population.


Excellent post, Eugene. That's definitely Cafe-Hall-of-Fame-worthy. Especially your point #3, that by far most of the American bowlbacks produced were low-quality to begin with.

To those points, accounting for today's near-invisibility of the bowlback mandolin in America, I'll add the following obstacles:

1) lack of easy availability of ideal picks and strings;
2) lack of contact and thus awareness of the state of the art amongst European and Asian bowlback luthiers;
3) shortage of skilled, specialized luthiers to restore the few good instruments left.

As a result of Eugene's points, and mine, here are some of the results:

1) Most American mandolinists have formed an opinion about bowlback mandolin, without ever having seen or heard a good one;
2) The old Gibson advertising hype often goes unquestioned: that the carved design is inherently better, thus we don't need older designs;
3) Low-end Pac Rim manufacturers copy only the carved designs, sending these around the world and displacing other traditions.

I've heard criticism that some of the old American bowlbacks were good, but none was good enough. I think that is a point we are just beginning to reevaluate, and at any rate, it's worth doing the research. Especially for anyone who is not a professional player, and might well be able to get along with something less than a modern, state-of-the-art, concert bowlback.

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Mandophile, 

Tim Logan

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## Tim Logan

Hello August - 
   Could you elaborate on lack of availability of ideal picks (definitely a sub-neophyte inquiry here). Thank you.

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## August Watters

> Hello August - 
>    Could you elaborate on lack of availability of ideal picks? Thank you.


Sure, but perhaps I should start by saying I'm not just talking about my own preferences. In the classical world, players are usually not so quick to say "use whatever works for you," "YMMV," etc. Of course that's what it comes down to at some point, we all have to decide what works best for us as individuals. But in the classical world, there's an emphasis on first figuring out what's in use by experienced players, and trying to do it the way they do it (even if it doesn't work well at first). So when I say "ideal picks," of course that is subjective at some level, but what I intend to highlight is what's popular among experienced players.

For starters, bowlbacks generally need lighter picks, since there's less string tension. Picks in the vicinity of .6mm to .7mm are common. Those picks are often accused of sounding thin and lacking bass response, but then, think of all the great Italian players with thin picks and fat tone! The difference is in the right hand.

As far as shape, the narrow, elongated Neapolitan teardrop makes it easier to change dynamics and tone by varying the depth of pick you use (that goes for other types of mandolins too, not just bowlbacks). In the classical world, some people cut the edges off teardrop-shaped picks, to make them narrower. There's a page demonstrating Marilynn Mair's recommended picks in her book "The Complete Mandolinist." As to materials -- at least for Italian and American bowlbacks, bright pick materials open more tonal possibilities (but the German bowlback is different). 

SO -- add those three considerations together: thickness, shape and materials -- and it's not always easy (here in the USA) to find picks that are ideal for bowlback. Fortunately, Strings By Mail (NFI) is carrying Dogal picks, which are very popular in Italy. I've found some good solutions on eBay, too.

Whatever works for you; YMMV    :Smile:

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## Tim Logan

Thank you August

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## Eugene

Personally, I favor the Neapolitan plectrum, but find Dogal's version too small.  Pickboy also imports Japanese-made Neapolitan-like plectra of celluloid and the same size as Dogal's, but with a heart-shaped trailing edge for grip.  If I can't lay hands to antique plectra, I'm likely to cut a Neapolitan shape out of a Clayton Ultem 0.8-mm-thick "rounded triangle" and polish the cut edges with fine sandpaper or a cosmetic fingernail buffer.  I've also managed to cut some nice workable plectra out of antique celluloid (knife handles and similar).  I'd rather be able to pop into the local music store and just buy a pick.

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August Watters, 

Tim Logan

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## Jim Garber

After reading these excellent posts above, I have a few thoughts, questions, etc. to add to the mix.

First of all, bowlback making surely died in North America by around 1920. However, mandolin manufacturing of all kinds faded quite a bit after that period. Even for Gibson, the vintage ones made in the teens into the early twenties are still more prevalent today than ones from later periods. It wasn't just bowlbacks but all mandolins that lost popularity. 

In addition, I still maintain that very few people were playing classical music on mandolin even in that golden era. It was mostly seen as a parlor instrument to play the popular tunes of the day. Yes, there were mandolin orchestras and a good handful of professionals out there but even their repertoire consisted of pop and vaudeville tunes, ragtime, and some plectral semi-classical pieces.

How truly different was it in Europe? The bowlback making tradition continued a bit longer than in the US into the 1940s (barely) in Italy and then revived by mandolin-based music education in Germany later on. But, in reality how popular was mandolin in the intervening years. Calace is the only from that still exists from the early part of the last century until today. Embergher was a small shop in any case gave over the day-to-day operations around 1930 and handed off the making to Domenico Cerrone in the 1940s. Vinaccia was gone by World War II, I believe. The Germans resurrected their changed style of bowlback with flatwound strings later.

As for strings and picks for classical mandolin today, I think it varies on the style you play and the school you attend or techniques you follow. I would surmise that in a survey of the current crop of today's classical players you find as wide variety of picks as in any other genre. I found a facebook photo from 2014 from Avi Avital gleefully captioned "pick supply, arrived !" Here it is:

...and I would also guess tat he might have changed his preferred pick to something else by now. I remember Alison Stephens switched from a hard pointy pick to one of those rubbery Woll ones at one time. Carlo Aonzo used John Pearse heavy jazz picks for a long time. I am not sure what her prefers now. And, of course, there are the exponents of Ranieri like Ralf Leenen and Sebastiaan de Grebber  and the musicians of Het Consort who prefer the thick beveled and pointed Roman-style picks for playing in a certain style on their Embergher/Roman instruments. 

At one point I used all these picks (the long ones are Roman picks, the translucent one is one I made from a sheet of ultem plastic I bought for that purpose:



I would also suggest that some players might play with a variety of picks for different effects comparable to a violinist using different bows.

As for strings, I doubt that the lack of strings accounted for the unpopularity of bowlbacks in the US. I think it is the other way around. 

Also, stepping back to take a perspective look at all this, bear in mind that mandolin is and was a minority instrument (as compared to, say, guitar today) and classical is a very small subset of that group and classical players today who play bowlbacks even worldwiseis a smaller subset of that. 

In any case, those are my thoughts, as they were.

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Eugene, 

Joe Bartl, 

Tim Logan

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## Eugene

Good thoughts, all, Jim.  Cheers!

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## Eugene

PS: I'd given the approx. date I did for the demise of the U.S.-made Neapolitan mandolin because they disappeared from the Washburn catalog by 1924 and were last documented rolling off the Martin line in 1925.  Even if scaled back, both (and others, of course) continued making other mandolin types.  Vega, likely the Larson Bros., etc. kept at the Neapolitan type for a bit longer.

Poor fictional Chisholm was ridiculed for being hopelessly, squarely old fashioned, e.g., because he played the mandolin here (1940): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chorus

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## Eugene

. . . And to see the general size and shape that I tend to like my plectra (relatively common among antique picks), note the large "Pettine" pictured here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-Pettine-picks

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## Jim Garber

Yes, being the ultimate nerd I had to have one of those Pettine picks. If I ever get one of my Pettine model Vegas in shape I will try and find the picks but I stikl have a feeling I won't like them. 

BTW in my long-winded post above you will note that the first pick in the photo it a small teardrop Gibson. Of course, Gibson discontinued them a few years ago but I bought a bunch since I really liked the shape and the tone. I believe that Barry Mitterhoff likes those too, though he may use the rounded part.

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## Martin Jonas

Great post, Jim.  Just picking up on one point.




> I remember Alison Stephens switched from a hard pointy pick to one of those rubbery Woll ones at one time.


I remember talking to Alison about picks at two residential courses, around 2004/2005.  The first time she showed me her pick it was a medium nylon pick, pretty much the same gauge and type that I was then (and am still now) using.  The main difference was that I use stock Jim Dunlop 0.88mm nylon picks on my bowlbacks and Alison cut them into a more pointy shape.  However, like all nylon picks they were not particularly hard.  By the time we spoke the following year, she had started experimenting with the Woll picks -- at that time she was becoming more involved in the German mandolin scene.

Simon Mayor says in the first volume of his mandolin tutor that he keeps trying other materials and shapes but always comes back to a stock 0.8mm teardrop guitar pick with a rounded tip, Fender Medium or similar.  Of course, while he plays classical music, Simon is not a pure classical mandolinist.

Martin

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## Tim Logan

OK, Im kinda in shock here, hearing people that actually KNEW Alison Stephens!!!!! Wow! Too awesome! I may be an old fart, but I can still be star struck LOL!

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## Jim Garber

Alison came over to the US for at least one tour and I emailed with her a little back then hoping she could come over again but that didn’t work out and she got sick and we all lost her way too soon. Our friends in the U.K. heard her play and learned from her. So sad.

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## Eugene

I actually booked Alison to a gig here in Ohio way back in April 2005.  (She was planning to relocate to the US at the time.)  Weird circumstances ensued, and she had to cancel.  She was very kind to me, arranged to have me do a little pro bono mandoconsulting in 2007 for the Musée du Palais Lascaris in Nice (unfortunately, all by e-mail; I didn't get to visit Nice).  She is missed.

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## Jim Garber

I do seem to remember that, Eugene, although I think she did come over and played another time before that, right? Her website is still online *here*.

Boy, this thread has gone a little way off-track. Oh well...

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## Eugene

> I do seem to remember that, Eugene, although I think she did come over and played another time before that, right?


She may have.  I honestly don't recall.

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## August Watters

> As for strings and picks for classical mandolin today, I think it varies on the style you play and the school you attend or techniques you follow.


Thanks, Jim, thats a better way of saying what I was trying to get across  there are trends and traditions, and its helpful to be aware of them. I certainly wouldnt offer my observations as universal; surely the classical mandolin world is big enough for differing viewpoints and conclusions. I suspect, though, if the goal is to extend the expressive range of the mandolin, we should probably all throw our various picks away, and keep only the long Roman picks. And take lessons in Ranieri-style technique. Alas, its a bit late in the game for me to change!

I also use various picks, including (occasionally) the guitar pick teardrops. But my original point was just that since bowlback and carved designs often do not use the same picks and strings (and the vendors tend to ignore the vintage and bowlback markets completely) it can be difficult (especially for newcomers) to find the right equipment for bowlbacks, vintage or otherwise.




> I still maintain that very few people were playing classical music on mandolin even in that golden era. . .repertoire consisted of pop and vaudeville tunes, ragtime, and some plectral semi-classical pieces.


Fortunately we have a pretty good snapshot of what mandolin concerts sounded like, since Crescendo Magazine usually published concert programs with each issue. Lots of issues are online now; I see University of Rochester has dozens of issues available online, from 1910 through 1927. Below are two overlapping images of the same page (just to be more readable), from Crescendos June 1910 program listings. 

For sure, it was primarily popular music, but the classical influence is easy to see, since emulating European art forms was mainstream at that time. Ragtime: originally conceived as a form of American chamber music. Tin Pan Alley songs: sometimes borrowing from European art song. Small- and large-group arrangements of popular arias, and familiar themes from classical symphonies etc. You could say its not really classical music, but Id view much of this rep as an extension of classical music traditionswhich have their own common ground with popular music.

And Id add another category not yet mentioned: The golden era mandolin art music, mainly attributed to the early American virtuosos and composer/teachers (Abt, Stauffer, Odell, Stahl, etc.) and their Italian counterparts, all represented in these programs. One might expect that since the Crescendo editorial stance was in favor of separating mandolin from its (presumed) humble folk origins, perhaps these programs have been cherry-picked to make that point. But I think its clear that classical music traditions played a big part in the foundations of early American mandolin music, and those, in turn, on the mandolin music of today.

Crescendo, June 1910, program listings:

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brunello97, 

Eugene, 

Joe Bartl, 

Tim Logan

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