# Music by Genre > Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance >  1796 Giovanni Battista Fabricatore mandolin

## Marijan

I`d just like to say hello to all forum members for my first post. In short I`m Marijan Radaljac from Slovenija. My professional occupation  is a small luthier workshop. Making violin family instruments, repairs and occasional restorations.

I had some contacts, hoping to have more,  with few people from forum, when trying to get informations  and opinions about the instrument I got in possession recently. 
I`m slowly running through the collection of knowledge and expertise present here on this site, trying to learn more about this area of instrument making and it`s history. 
In meanwhile  I would like to share few photographs of the instrument I luckily find, with no particular question at the moment, but I`d certainly appreciate any thoughts or opinions. 

It is similar instrument to one that was shown in greatly documented Eric`s treads about 1793 Fabricatore restoration, but with slightly richer ornamentation on the fingerboard.

Thanks for great forum. I hope you will enjoy the photos. 
Best,
Marijan Radaljac

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Eugene

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## Marijan

Part II

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Eugene

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## Marijan

Part III

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Eugene

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Marijan Radaljac,

Congrats with this wonderful Gio. Batt. Fabricatore mandolin. It is a very nice (late) example of the Early Neapolitan Mandolin in the Mandolin Family and judging from the photos it can likely be restored into a fully playable mandolin. It is a 'late' example in terms of development of this mandolin type.

Are the bridge and nut lost or do you still have them? If not Eric or myself can easily help you out with photos of original Fabricatore examples to copy. The best thing is to restore it in every aspect (materials etc.) as close as possible to how the origial instrument was build in 1793. 

If you have the time to 'up date' us every now and then here at this topic at the Mandolin café, it would be very much appreciated. It is very nice to see and read the progress of restoration of such a highly important mandolin.


Success and best greetings,

Alex.

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## Richard Walz

Wonderful, I would love to have this instrument for my next recording project... hint, hint....  :Smile:  congratulations!

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## Jim Garber

I am interested to see what the bracing is on this instrument and how it differs from later, late 19th century mandolins.

Thanks so much, Marijan, for posting these photos.

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## Marijan

Thank you Alex for opinion and informations, 
yes bridge and the nut are missing parts. So are two string buttons. Two original ivory ones are still there. So is one original ebony peg. I have seen the photos of original pieces that you sent to Eric, but I would be most grateful if you, or Eric, would be willing to mail me full size shots and original measurements of the bridge and saddle 
on my mail: 

marijan.radaljac@amis.net

Otherwise, I still have doubts, mainly of the moral kind, about idea to attempt the restoration job by myself, despite the fact that I would be able to perform it technically, as luthier.  I am aware of limitted knowladge about this particular  field of instrument making, and since this is a historicaly important instrument, my doubt perhaps make some sense.  It is tempting on the other hand. 

If I go with the restoration, and decide not to put mandolin on the market in »as it is condition«, which was an option that was prevailing at first, and not so tempting after few days of thinking things through, I`ll certainly document the process and post descriptions and photos on the forum. 
In that case I`ll be very grateful for every possible suggestion and information, you are willing to share.

Structural damage is not to extensive, and ornament parts are all there, beside parts of the ivory strips, some purfling, and damaged tortoise shell on the head. I worked with mastic filler before. Tortous shell can present a problem. 

Jim, I`ll take few right side shots where top is slightly open, and bracings can be seen. If I open it I`ll post full set.

Richard, my prediction is that you will have to delay your recording session for few days, if you want to use this one, but it will be ready for the next one for sure :Wink: . 

I`d really like to hear this one being played.

Thank you,  

Marijan Radaljac

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## Richard Walz

Marijan, there are a number of luthiers who have quite some experience with this type of instrument and restoration thereof. I can recommend Wolfgang Fruh (in Paris) as one person who has repaired and constructed a fair number of early mandolin family instruments. You can call or write him if you have questions : tél: +33 (1) 42526582  email : lepointdaccroche.fruh@wanadoo.fr
I warn you, he loves to talk...

You should probablly do all right in anycase and we all look forward to seeing this mandolin have a new lease on musical life.

Best wishes.... Richard

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## Marijan

Thank you very much Richard. I`ll write to mrs. Fruh wherever I decide to do the restoration job by myself or not. You can see from the length of my posts that I don`t hate long talks either. So no problem.

I re read my last post, and tried to find edit button...  When I talked about the lack of experience with this kind of instruments, I talked about me, not having enough expirience, not about luthiers in general! I hope I wasn't misunderstood and that I didn't offend anyone.

Jim, this is he best I could do, before opening.

 

Bracing placement looks the same as on Eric`s Fabricatore. Two high bars some 8 mm from the edge of the soundhole, lower one tilted, and lowest one 25 mm from the lower high one. Heights 19mm, 20mm, aprox. 10mm from highest to lowest. Bended top is reinforces as on Eric`s one. As I sad, I`ll post detailed photos and measurements if I open it.

Best,
Marijan

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## Margriet

Congratulations ! It is a lovely instrument and I am happy to hear that it once will be played again.

The coincidence happens that we obtained a few weeks ago a similar instrument that needs repair, in some respects the same. It would be nice to compare and to keep in touch and share experience, giving updates. We also would like to bring it playable again.
I do not know how to organize this on cafe, it does not fit in this particular thread, as it is not a Fabricatore as the thread is named, but a 1776 Vinaccia.

Margriet

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## etbarbaric

Hi Marijan,

Welcome to the Cafe!

Thanks for posting photos of your instrument here.  There is some (growing?) interest in the early instruments, stringing, and techniques, and I'm sure people will enjoy seeing this instrument.  I tried to send you an e-mail over the weekend, but I don't know if you received it.  You seem to have found the files on my 1793 Fabricatore, so that was the goal in any case.  I certainly agree that yours is a perfectly legitimate and lovely Fabricatore.

Interestingly, the photos of your instrument have helped me to establish the likely builder of another 18th-century mandolin under my care.  I had long strongly suspected Fabricatore, but the label on my instrument had been torn out.  As it happens, the inlay around the soundhole of your instrument is identical to mine.  I had seen that inlay pattern used on another Fabricatore instrument, but it is very nice to see so direct a match!  So, thank you again for sharing.

As for restoration, having been through this process a couple of times, I would advise caution.  As a violinist and a mandolinist, I can attest to the fact that mandolins are not violins.  This seems obvious, of course, but there are many structural aspects of the violin family of instruments that make them ready to resist the forces we subject them to. Violins and their ilk also almost seem ready-made to be taken apart, adjusted, and put back together.  Plucked instruments, in contrast, work differently... Mind you, I'm not saying it can't be done, much the contrary, only that in my view, it takes a very competent restorer ready to understand some new issues, and a good candidate instrument.

In particular, I would say that existing neck angle more than anything else should govern the choice of whether to attempt a restoration.  These instruments were all built *very* lightly, with a design point around low-tension brass (and gut) strings. Unless they have sat quietly in a closet, most older mandolins were eventually subjected to later higher-tension steel strings... and that often caused changes to the neck.  In many cases, the mandolin simply gave way in other areas, and that somewhat protected the neck as the instrument simply became a wall hanger.

As a violin maker, I'm sure you can appreciate the common historical practice of nailing the neck to the neck block of old violins.  This is almost certainly the case of your Fabricatore.  Trust me when I tell you that your nail will be a "clench" nail that is larger in the middle.  They were put in red hot, and *not* designed to be removed.  The nail will also be made from the strongest, most amazing steel you've ever encountered!  In violins, there are often ways of resetting a neck without disturbing the nail... This becomes very complex with a fluted mandolin body made of many strips of wood.  The neck reset of my Fabricatore was extremely difficult.  We had to cut the nail, and it took days and days of constant (and delicate) work.  In my view, this was the area where the biggest compromises had to be made.

As Alex says, we are all willing to help with what information we can provide.

Thank you again for sharing the photos.

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Relative to the instrument itself, I wanted to mention a couple of very direct
similarities to my instruments (beyond the obvious, size, proportions, soundhole
size/shape, scratch plate shape, etc.)  

The carving on the end-clasp looks to me to have been done in a very similar 
style to my 1793 instrument, perhaps by the same hand.  Also, the lone 
surviving black peg you have is virtually identical to the peg we used as a 
pattern for the restoration of the 1793 instrument (where we had no 
surviving original pegs).  Note that this peg (boxwood in my case) came 
from my other suspected Fabricatore instrument (the one with the identical 
soundhole inlay mentioned in my previous post)!

All in all, nice tie-ins!  It makes me feel very good that I selected an
appropriate peg to copy!

Best,

Eric

ps - I would, of course, recommend Larry Brown as a very
competent restorer. However, he is located in the U.S., and 
I'm not sure how much restoration work he is taking on 
these days.

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## Margriet

> Unless they have sat quietly in a closet, most older mandolins were eventually subjected to later higher-tension steel strings... and that often caused changes to the neck. 
> 
> 
> 
> As a violin maker, I'm sure you can appreciate the common historical practice of nailing the neck to the neck block of old violins.    Trust me when I tell you that your nail will be a "clench" nail that is larger in the middle.  They were put in red hot, and *not* designed to be removed.  The nail will also be made from the strongest, most amazing steel you've ever encountered!  In violins, there are often ways of resetting a neck without disturbing the nail... This becomes very complex with a fluted mandolin body made of many strips of wood.  The neck reset of my Fabricatore was extremely difficult.  We had to cut the nail, and it took days and days of constant (and delicate) work.  In my view, this was the area where the biggest compromises had to be made.
> 
> As Alex says, we are all willing to help with what information we can provide.
> 
> 
> Eric


My Vinaccia has some damage and old repair on the neck as well. Do you think it has happened because of having had too high tension strings ? 
Yesterday I was at Alex with it and he said it is probably a good idea to make a X-ray, to see if there is a steel pin in.

I am chiming in this discussion, because there are similarities, despite my mandolin had another maker. Here is a photo. If you think it fits in the thread, I can post more. I found it at the classifieds, some weeks ago.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Margriet,

Contratulations on your Vinaccia!

It is difficult for me to say much from looking at the photos. I'm
sure Alex can advise you better since he is nearby and has
the opportunity to examine the instrument first hand. What
evidence of repair do you see, and where is it on the neck?

The marks on the body down by the body/neck join look
to me like marks left over from two body frets (aka table 
frets) as they are at approximately the correct spacing.  
The missing inlay on the lower part of the peg head could 
have a number of explanations.  That is, of course, a prime 
area for breakage if a mandolin is dropped on its head under 
tension... but I don't see any crack in your photos... 

Basically, if you want to end up with a successful and playable
instrument, you need a decent neck angle so that you have 
a workable action. You can do a couple of things to evaluate 
neck angle and strength. I think I can see a surviving nut in 
your photo, which is great.  If so, fashion a small spacer to 
act as a bridge (nothing fancy.. just something approximately the
right height). Stretch a string from your makeshift bridge
to the nut and try to measure the distance from the string
to the last fret.  This is not an exact science... but lets just
say that if you have 1/2 inch under the string... you have a 
problem.

Also (gently!) see if the neck moves relative to the body of 
the instrument, or if it is still tight.  Again, gently.

Best,

Eric

ps - Feel free to start another thread if you like... they're free!  :-)

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## etbarbaric

Also, sighting down the neck from either end can be very revealing!

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## Marijan

Hi Eric, yes I did receive your first mail (a lengthy one as my posts here) and I answered you the same day, sending few more photos.

Thank you very much for pointing out the neck issue and warning me about that aspect of restoration. I thought, that some kind of iron pin had to be used as on old violins, but wasnt sure about that, or about the technique old makers used for making a connection. 

Could you please clarify for me this sentence: _"In particular, I would say that existing neck angle more than anything else should govern the choice of whether to attempt a restoration."_ 
Does it mean, that it is common and necessary practice today, that the neck is reset (taken of and reseted) on every antique mandolin, as a precaution, because the modern strings will be in use? Most of pre 1800 violin "nail" neck set ups where redone and replaced with mortise neck/body joint. 
Or do you mean, that the neck angle and joint has to be carefully inspected and checked out, to determine, if the reset of the neck is necessary.

In any case, caution is my middle name . That is why I am trying to learn as far as I can, before I take any decisions about what and to what point to do with it. I hope you wont mind if I ask a question or two off the forum to from time to time.   

I`m glad my photos helped you out with your second Fabricatore. It would be nice to see few pictures of it, when you take some. Thanks again.

Margriet, your Vinnacia is a great pair to Fabricatore for this tread. I certainly don`t mind and would be rely glad to see few more pictures of your mandolin. It looks to be beautiful instrument. I`d like to have someone like Alex here in Slovenija too, so I can consult with him, like you can. Who is going to restore it?

Best,

Marijan

P.S. I just read your answer to Margriet and it answered the question partially. Thanks.

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## Margriet

thanks, Eric !

yes, Alex looked very well to the Vinaccia and it is rather healthy. I worry the most of the neck/head damage and I think the X-ray is a good idea. Besides this it is mostly decoration issues, making bridge and nut. There is still a nut, but a bit weared. It is amazing that a mandolin of almost 250 years old has survived, in this condition and I feel happy and respectful with it. The case is interesting as well!

I can open a new thread, but I think it is good to add here. The subject is the same, only the name of the thread differs. I will post more photos. Last post two the same (unexperienced).

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## Margriet

> In any case, caution is my middle name . That is why I am trying to learn as far as I can, before I take any decisions about what and to what point to do with it. I hope you wont mind if I ask a question or two off the forum to from time to time.   
> 
> 
> 
>  I`d like to have someone like Alex here in Slovenija too, so I can consult with him, like you can. Who is going to restore it?


Marijan, I appreciate a lot your attitude regarding the mandolin. 

Indeed, I am happy with Alex in the neighborhood. If there is anyone, who is, as a musician, deeply and thoroughly diving into the history of the mandolin, her family and the aspects of playing, it is Alex !

About restoration: we limite ourselves to do decoration things and setting up: making bridge, nut, cleaning, gluing cracks. Alex made contact with luthiers like Hendrik van den Broek -who in the past was luthier, like you, for bowed string instruments, but now a mandolin maker/restorer as well -  and with Sebastian Nunez, luthier more specialized in ancient instruments, like lutes, baroque guitars, theorbes. I will consult people like them, if necessary and let them do the work.

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## etbarbaric

Hi Marijan,

I'll try to be more clear in my comments.  I would _not_ say that a neck reset is
necessary on every old mandolin, only that the neck angle is something that 
should be inspected carefully if you want to have a playable instrument at the 
end of the process.  Neck angle is absolutely key to playability, in other words.
Sometimes having a playable instrument is not a consideration of a restoration, 
of course (for museums, etc.)

In general, I would say that neck resets on mandolins are difficult, particularly
if there is a great big tempered steel clench nail involved.  Thus, I was suggesting 
that neck angle be used as one of the biggest determining factors before attempting 
a restoration to a playable instrument.  Just know that if the neck angle needs to 
be reset, it will be a big job if there is a nail present... not impossible... just a 
significant undertaking that can force some compromise. Not every instrument 
has a nail, but I would bet good money that your mandolin does, based on my 
experience with Fabricatore.

Also, I want to make this point very clearly.  If you are successful in the restoration,
under *no* circumstances would I fit modern high-tension strings!  Modern high-tension 
strings will put the instrument back into extreme danger, and "reinforcing" an old mandolin 
to handle these strings would do more damage to the instrument than good... and still 
probably not be successful.  It is a period instrument and it deserves period-appropriate
strings in my opinion. I can strongly recommend the period-appropriate strings made by 
Dan Larson for the Neapolitan mandolin.  These are mostly brass strings with a gut top 
course (described elsewhere on the Cafe).  There are also folks in Europe who can provide 
these strings as well.  Beyond just being "strings", the right strings will give your instrument
a truly remarkable sound... completely unlike that of the modern mandolin.  This is the whole
point for me.

I hope this is more clear.  Let me know if not.

Best,

Eric

ps - I haven't seen your e-mail yet... Maybe it is hung up somewhere.  I'll keep looking.

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## etbarbaric

I would second Margriets' advice recommending Hendrik van den Broek or
Sebastian Nuñez.  Both are fine craftsmen.

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Hi Margriet,

Thanks for posting the clearer photographs.  I can now easily see the crack in
the lower portion of the peghead.  That would certainly explain the loss of ornament
in that area!  

From the side-view, it looks as if the crack traveled lengthwise down the neck.
That could be a good thing as it allows substantially more gluing area than a 
break that was straight across.  That said, these kinds of breaks can come back
to haunt you, since you are basically depending on the tensile strength of 
hide glue to hold against the tension of the strings.

Before even thinking of adding tension to this instrument, I would recommend
having the repair checked out thoroughly by a good luthier.

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

ps - That case is wonderful!!!

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## Marijan

Thank you Eric, more than clear. Neck on this mandolin seams to be as straight as it can be.  No movements on the joint. No visible damage on the filler that`s covering the joint. But this is just a quick inspection. So far looks OK. 

It`s far from fitting the strings, but I expected that old time strings should be used. If for nothing else but for complete authenticity.

Thank you for photographs Margriet. Great instrument. I contacted Mrs. Van Den Broek, but didn't get any answer yet.

Marijan

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## Margriet

Marijan, 
you cannot know, but mr. Van den Broek is a Mr.  :Smile: 
Just have patience and if it takes too much time, give it another try. There is always lots to do. I tried to make an appointment as well, for the Vinaccia, so far without success.

Eric, I agree to having it checked by a good luthier to see if the joint can bear the tension. Before stringing, but also before starting the decoration repair. We will do the work under "supervision". :Smile: 

For the pleasure I post here a photo of the inside of the case. The mandolin fits exactly.

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## Marijan

Thanks Margriet, no hurry on this one. 

May I ask two questions?

Upper frets on this mandolin are made out of ebony stripes. Probably substitute, since I think I can see some small holes where original frets entered the top. I`m just curious, where frets like these ever used during the building process?



Purfling on the mandolin is made out of combination of ivory and ebony as far as I can see and judge. Three or for stripes. 
How far would you go, or one should go, when trying to maintain the authenticity of the original, through the restoring process. Ordinary wooden purfling, bone substitute, chopping old piano and it`s keys, modern material....? What level, regarding the choice of material, in particularly those not available or restricted in use,  is acceptable on historic instrument. 
I plan to keep all original ornamentation and just add missing parts and mastic.

Best,
Marijan

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## Alex Timmerman

Hi Marijan,

To answer your to your two questions; I can inform you that the ebony frets which are glued at the sound table are original. There are exceptions (sometimes we see ivory or silver used for these frets), but usually this is the way the Neapolitan luthiers worked. The highest (10th) metal fret is always slightly longer than the others, as is also the case with your Fabricatore. 

With regard to your second question I would say; yes please, stay as close to the original used materials. Indeed _"chopping old piano and it`s keys"_, using the same woods and same kinds of Mother of Pearl etc. Work in exact the same manner as it was done in 1796 by Gio. Batt. Fabricatore and the craftsmen in his atelier. 
Restoring in this way will also give the instrument its historic importance and value (money wise speaking) back. 

And don't worry; restoration work will always be 'visuable' if one has the eye for it. And that's OK for that is the instrument and the 'aging' of it. And of, course, if the owner wants it to be a playing instrument.


Best, 

Alex.

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## Marijan

Thank you Alex, for both answers. 

Do this kind of frets, presuming that the position, height and width are correct, present any kind of problems for you musicians? I mean, could I expect any complaints about those by one who will play that mandolin one day, if I make new frets out of ebony and not silver. I don`t know what is a difference in sound character between ebony or metal.

Anyone selling old piano? Button box with tortoise shell cover? 

Best,
Marijan

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## Alex Timmerman

Hello Marijan,

No problem what so ever; the ebony frets - indeed - if placed right, are strong enough for another 100 years or so. Also, on your Fabricatore silver for the highest sound board frets was never used. They should simply be made of ebony. 
Only the 1st string (and perhaps a few notes on the 2nd string) will occasionally have notes that high - metal 10th fret (d''') up to the ebony 11th and 12th fret (e'''). 

It is also good to be aware that in the last two decennia of the 18th century the Early Neapolitan mandolin is in its final state of development ánd that in the original repertoire for that type at that time there are only very few compositions with high notes that need to have these ebony frets. So, there will be almost no wear on the ebony frets. The difference in sound character between ebony, ivory or metal, is frankly not a matter of real importance.


Best greetings, 

Alex.

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## Marijan

> The difference in sound character between ebony, ivory or metal, is frankly not a matter of real importance.
> 
> 
> Best greetings, 
> 
> Alex.


Thanks Alex, it`s a professional deformation. No such a relaxed attitude in violin making unfortunately.

Best,

Marijan

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## etbarbaric

Hi Marijan,

After looking at your photos, I agree with Alex about your frets being wooden (ebony, probably).  To be clear, *some* Fabricatores do have metal table frets, and some even have both!.  My 1793 Fabricatore clearly had metal table frets throughout. My unlabeled instrument (likely from the Fabricatore Atelier) actually has both metal (4) and wood (3) table frets.  It looks almost as if the maker set the metal table frets over the end block (where he would have had some support for banging them in) and then glued the rest.

Metal table frets usually have a little hook at the end, leading some to call them "staple frets".  Those little hooks actually dig down into the table wood to hold the fret in place, and often even make little splits in the spruce.  Glued-on hardwood frets (whether actual ebony or some other stained hardwood) are traditional in the lute world, for what it is worth.  I personally prefer wood frets as they do less to disrupt the instrument.

As Alex points out, you will almost never encounter those frets when playing the music of the time, so they are largely ornamental.

Best,

Eric

ps - In case you can't tell, Marijan, we are most pleased to encounter a luthier with interest in the mandolin.  Who knows... perhaps this will lead to other lines of business for you? :-)

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## etbarbaric

Interestingly, the 1797 Fabricatore at Vintage Instruments (which is very similar in design and ornament to your instrument) clearly has metal table frets, while yours are clearly wooden.

Best,

Eric

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## Marijan

Eric,

if you look at fourth fret from the neck toward the sound hole on my last photography, there are marks on its ends, that  I thought at first, to be an indication of staple fret cuts. I must admit I didn't take a closer look yet, but I`ll put ebony ones in any case.

I decided finally, to do the restoration job by myself. Tried to contact few suggested restorers, but  got no respond. I`ll start with top, it`s enough job there to keep me busy between pauses in my violin making work, for a while. I`ll do my best to check the neck joint and decide if it needs to be redone, before refitting the top. I luckily got ivory piano keys, I ordered few variants of mother of pearl...

It`s interesting to look that Fabricatore at vintage instruments. The main thing that strikes me is the condition of top, like the old finish was striped of and perhaps varnished with clear coat. On my mandolin, and all the others I was able to see on photographies available on the net,there is a dark, very light and fragile finish, and you can tell easily that no actions where taken on the tops surface. I do not know what is condition of that other mandolin, but it looks simply to light in color to be originally 200 years old. Again, I may be wrong. All the others including mine and yours have darker tone, you can see on photos I posted along this thread.

Thanks for  P.S. line I appreciate that. 

Best,
Marijan

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## Margriet

> I luckily got ivory piano keys
> 
> On my mandolin, and all the others I was able to see on photographies available on the net,there is a dark, very light and fragile finish, and you can tell easily that no actions where taken on the tops surface. I do not know what is condition of that other mandolin, but it looks simply to light in color to be originally 200 years old. Again, I may be wrong. All the others including mine and yours have darker tone, you can see on photos I posted along this thread.
> 
> Marijan



Alex, Eric, Marijan,

how do you know that ivory is used ? On what things you can see that Marijan's Fabricatore has ivory and my Vinaccia bone or maybe baleen (of whales) ? Is it only the color? or the matter of equality on the surface? With bone there are also differences, in color, in being more or less equal.

About the top and varnish: mine seems to be unvarnished.

Frets on the top: Alex told that these only or mostly were used for the highest strings. If you have a proper look on the Vinaccia, you can see that there seem to be traces of frets on the other side, at the lower strings. For a left- handed lady ? If you look on the scratchplate, there are scratches on that side as well.

Another question: the rosette is still very nice. Though there is a bit of red-brown mastique missing. What you would suggest, how to repair ?

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## Margriet

some more photos

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## Marc Woodward

Beautiful instruments - and I love the case with Margriets Vinaccia: something of the medieval torture chamber about it!!

Marc

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## Marijan

> Alex, Eric, Marijan,
> 
> how do you know that ivory is used ? On what things you can see that Marijan's Fabricatore has ivory and my Vinaccia bone or maybe baleen (of whales) ? Is it only the color? or the matter of equality on the surface? With bone there are also differences, in color, in being more or less equal.
> 
> About the top and varnish: mine seems to be unvarnished.
> 
> Frets on the top: Alex told that these only or mostly were used for the highest strings. If you have a proper look on the Vinaccia, you can see that there seem to be traces of frets on the other side, at the lower strings. For a left- handed lady ? If you look on the scratchplate, there are scratches on that side as well.
> 
> Another question: the rosette is still very nice. Though there is a bit of red-brown mastique missing. What you would suggest, how to repair ?


Hi Margriet, I`am no expert, one can tell the difference between ivory and bone easily. For me it`s hard to tell, in particulary because this pieces are so narrow and thin. But you can identify bone with god percentage of certainty by looking the remains of the canals which used to transfer nutritions through the bone. On hte surface, those can be detected as tiny holes coming out from the inside of the bone. On the surface there will be small black spots, all over the piece, when looking through the strong magnifying glass.  
On ivory there are some kind of "grains" running along the piece and lines that run perpendicularly to those, forming a sort of pattern. Surface is clean and smooth. Again, hard to see either of those growth lines on such a narrow pieces, but it can be detected at close inspection. 
In any case, higher grade substitute, if I do make a mistake, is probably more acceptable by my opinion, than lover grade. So I will use ivory. 
Filling missing parts of the rosette. I used black mastic only till now. Hide glue based, mixed with ebony powder (don`t sand, file it). For this one I`am planing to make samples firs, using casein, small amount of ebony powder and natural red, dry pigment I still need to choose. It will take some time to determine transparency, correct pigment and consistency, but with few tests  I`am sure I`ll find good match.

Best,
Marijan

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## etbarbaric

Hi all,

I'm tight for time today, so I'll try to keep this short... and offer some opinions only...

Marijan, yes, I looked carefully at your photo, and I can see the marks that you mention near the fourth table fret. They could have come from a metal fret, but they also might be some errant tool marks... or just a coincidence. In this case, since you clearly have ebony frets largely in place (the fourth fret is one of the complete ones), I would recommend staying with wood as you suggest.  I'd further suggest keeping as much of the existing table frets as possible... and maybe not worrying too much if your replacements are not an exact match as to color.  That will perhaps inform future owners as to the work you end up doing.

Margriet, I can also see what you are saying about there being some glue or finish traces of a former fret on the "left" side of the instrument (as seen from face-on).  It is hard to say if it was only on that side, or whether the residue simply flaked off the other side... It is also hard to say whether these table frets are original, or if these are the original table frets (two questions, eh? :-)).  Can you tell if the neck frets have been replaced?  Do I see part of an ebony fret right up against the last metal neck fret?  Or is that just some mastic infill where some ornament is missing? (it looks like ornament in that spot on the right side... so perhaps the latter.)

Both of these questions lead to some of the difficult decisions that must be undertaken in the case of a restoration.  IMHO one needs to start these projects with a firm decision to "do no harm", to borrow a phrase from the medical community.  One also needs to try very hard to differentiate the truly "original" features of the instrument, from things that may have been done later in the decision making process.  For that we have to look to other verified examples by the same makers, other instruments from the same time, and consult folks who have looked at lots and lots of these instruments (e.g. Alex).  In most cases, and even in cases where originality may be in question, I like to err on the side of preserving "existing" features (as compared to "original" features) as they reflect a part of the instruments history (rather than an ultimately subjective restoration). Sometimes you just can't tell... and I like to err on the side of being conservative... 

For example, I initially wanted to discard and replace the odd hitch pins on my Fabricatore... as they were clearly similar to guitar hitch pins... and *could* have been added later. Upon reflection, these hitch pins had clearly been with the instrument a long time... and where better to find guitar hitch pins laying around than in the Fabricatore workshop!  Taking time to learn, reflect, and understand is a firm recommendation before the knives come out!  :-)

Tops on these instruments were typically left unfinished, or at most very lightly finished with an egg tempura or perhaps very lightly french polished.  For this reason, many of them end up looking very dark over time with accumulated dirt and oxidation. Some look better than others, depending on the conditions they've been subjected to. I would _not_ encourage any "refinishing" of any sort beyond some very light cleaning, as that will certainly detract from value.  Also, unlike violins (which vibrate *very* differently), oil varnishes are considered death to tone woods for historic lutes and mandolins, etc.

There are many approaches to mastic.  Larry Brown came up with an ingenious solution that was both a solution for missing mastic, and even missing tortoise shell... but I don't want to pass on his trade secret without his permission.

There are ways to tell ivory from bone, from baleen... but I am not the best person to advise at that level.  Bone, I think, has more of a visible grain than ivory.... but don't quote me... 

Best,

Eric

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## Margriet

Many thanks, all you, looking so thoroughly and giving advices so clearly.
I really love this thread....




> Margriet, I can also see what you are saying about there being some glue or finish traces of a former fret on the "left" side of the instrument (as seen from face-on).  It is hard to say if it was only on that side, or whether the residue simply flaked off the other side... It is also hard to say whether these table frets are original, or if these are the original table frets (two questions, eh? :-)).


 
I cannot see any marks of a fret on the right side of the ornament. Maybe it flaked off, as you say, Eric, but I do not see anything, so I suppose we can only guess.




> Can you tell if the neck frets have been replaced? Do I see part of an ebony fret right up against the last metal neck fret? Or is that just some mastic infill where some ornament is missing? (it looks like ornament in that spot on the right side... so perhaps the latter.)


I do not know whether the frets are original. Maybe there was some repair in the past. There are pieces of ebony at the three last frets, just beside the silver ones.




> For that we have to look to other verified examples by the same makers, other instruments from the same time, and consult folks who have looked at lots and lots of these instruments (e.g. Alex).


I agree.




> In most cases, and even in cases where originality may be in question, I like to err on the side of preserving "existing" features (as compared to "original" features) as they reflect a part of the instruments history (rather than an ultimately subjective restoration). Sometimes you just can't tell... and I like to err on the side of being conservative...


A bit problem with the language.... do you say in some cases to accept and keep some later repairs? Or to stay close to the original ?




> Larry Brown came up with an ingenious solution that was both a solution for missing mastic, and even missing tortoise shell... but I don't want to pass on his trade secret without his permission.


I understand. We will explore and try - and a lot and many times -before to use it on the instrument. Maybe rosin can be used. 

Thanks again,

Margriet

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## etbarbaric

Hi Margriet,




> A bit problem with the language.... do you say in some cases to accept and keep some later repairs? Or to stay close to the original ?


This is a complex topic... and one that you ultimately have to grapple with as regards your specific instrument.  People in everything from historic architecture to toy trains struggle with similar issues. You have to ask yourself honestly how much you really know about the original configuration.... and where you are forced to guess about details.  The instrument represents its own history now... its builder, time, previous owners and their changes repairs, etc. to adapt the instrument to their needs.  Even a well-intended restoration represents change for the instrument. We should take care in this responsibility.   What will people think 100 years from now about the changes we make?  What are your goals? Playability? Cosmetic perfection? Historic accuracy? All of these can conflict and represent trade-offs.

When faced with missing or incomplete information, we have to decide what to do.  Sometimes you can make an informed choice based on other information (other close surviving instruments may point the way, for example).  In other cases you have to simply make the best decision possible.  Table frets are perhaps an interesting example.  Even if these instruments are returned to playability, what is the chance that the table frets will actually be used?  If the answer is "not much", then do they really have to be restored, or are they OK as is?

I'm just saying that sometimes (not always) it is perfectly fine to leave old repairs, and even old modifications, if they are sound and represent something interesting.  Sometimes the modifications themselves are quite intriguing and historic.  Sometimes trying to take an instrument back to some original historical "ideal" can end up being more destructive, and can involve more subjective speculations than simply letting the instrument be what it is.  Think of everything on the instrument as _potentially_ interesting in a historic sense.

For instance, my suspected late Fabricatore came complete with a bridge and nut that are clearly cut for four (4) individual strings (not doubled courses).  On the other hand, as a Neapolitan mandolin, the instrument was clearly _originally_ built for four doubled courses (it has eight peg holes).  The bridge and nut are quite old... and the mark on the table from the bridge makes it clear that the bridge has been with the instrument most of its 200+ years.  It makes an interesting story now, but if I restore the instrument, I will have to decide which course (so to speak :-)) to take... Is the "story" of its adaptation more important than the original form of the instrument?  Is there a way to accomplish both?

As another example, what do your "left-handed" table frets tell you (assuming that is what they mean)?  Was your left-handed lady the original owner?  Was it an adaptation for a later owner?  Was she a lady at all?  :-)  Are there other adaptations on the instrument that might point to it being a "lefty"?  For instance, are there asymmetrical ornament, or internal barring patterns that are reversed from what the maker typically did (which might indicate a custom instrument for a left-handed client)?  Or did the fret simply fall off on the other side, taking its glue traces with it?  It is fun to speculate, but many of these things simply are not knowable in the end.

Best,

Eric

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## Margriet

Eric,
in Dutch there is an expression: do not go over ice that exists only one night. 
I feel very respectful and grateful to be able to have this instrument and I want the best. So it will take time to make these decisions. I am happy that other people, like you, are willing to look and think with me and shine light on diverse aspects.
One choice I can make: I should like that the mandolin will play again. In the case it would be made - or remade, changed- for a lefty person, I would not make/keep it for a lefty, if there is not a lefty person who will play it. And - as you say - we do not know for sure.
I am still in the phase just to look and look and try to hear what the mandolin tells from it's history.
No hurry at all, very good to go through that period thoroughly.
It must be the same feeling of responsability and respect that makes you being involved in this thread. Thanks again.

Margriet

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## etbarbaric

Hi Margriet,

A wonderful expression! Thanks again for sharing your instrument with us.  It is very special.

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Hi again Margriet,

Since your instrument seems to have an intact nut, what
(if anything) can it tell you about how the strings were run?
Are the slots in the nut wider on one side than the other?
I cannot see this level of detail from the photographs.

Best,

Eric

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## Margriet

> Since your instrument seems to have an intact nut, what
> (if anything) can it tell you about how the strings were run?
> Are the slots in the nut wider on one side than the other?
> I cannot see this level of detail from the photographs.
> 
> Eric


a bit short reply (not much time at the moment).
I post a photo that I got from the seller. Later we will make more photos, from a different angle.
On the photo you can see that there is broken a piece of wood at the level of the higher strings. It is hard to see if the slots are wider at the lower strings. If so, there is very small difference. When we were at Alex, he noticed that there are slots between the pairs of strings as well ( thanks, Alex).

Margriet

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## etbarbaric

Thanks for the photo Margriet.  It is difficult to tell anything about string size, or likely stringing order.  A clean new bridge might well have different-sized notches for the range of string sizes... but a nut of this age has seen many things over its lifetime, eh? And yes, the broad "chunks" taken out between the doubled courses are interesting... or at least odd.  

Best,

Eric

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## Margriet

> the range of string sizes...


There were small ends of 3 pairs of strings still attached, when we obtained the mandolin. You can see them on the photo. This will not be a proof for the order of strings, as you can easily take the pins in and out. When we cleaned, we noticed that some pins fit better in other holes. We kept the ends of the strings, they are rather light.

Margriet

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## Marijan

It`s very helpful to hear advices stands and opinions from competent people, opinions that are not of strictly technical nature, but can and do guide and dictate decisions of restorer to some extent, in particularly when part of the restoring process or resolving of the problems that occur, can be solved on more than one, but still historically appropriate or acceptable way.

I did set a priority range to myself, regarding this restoration and goals that are to be met. When you are mentioning cosmetic perfection, playability and historic accuracy, Eric, I have little doubt, that reverse order needs to be the goal. The highest possible historic accuracy must be kept and achieved, playability, if restoration job, from technical point of view in particularly was done well, will probably be a consequence of that, and cosmetic perfection should be the final touch and sign of god, if it has been done so, restoration job. 

For me, the questions that has to do with actual constructional restoration, will be sometimes harder to answer or decide which way to chose. Those are the ones that bothered me when I was deciding wherever to do this by myself or not. I will change the bass bar in violin if I determine that it doesn't function as it should anymore. I know when the change is needed if I want the violin to be in god playable condition. I don`t have that experience with mandolins. Different purpose, different function, different down force distributions etc., different approach to repair. I know what kind of patch, if needed, I`ll use on violin top crack, I know I can use studs to reinforce the repair. What about here? And so on and on... So great amount of data collection and learning will be involved in the restoration process.

As Margriet said, no hurry. 

I opened the top yesterday, so I`ll be able to post few photographs of bracings and interior in next days.

Thanks,

Marijan

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## etbarbaric

Hi Marijan,




> Eric, I have little doubt, that reverse order needs to be the goal. The highest possible historic accuracy must be kept and achieved, playability, if restoration job, from technical point of view in particularly was done well, will probably be a consequence of that, and cosmetic perfection should be the final touch and sign of god, if it has been done so, restoration job.


I certainly agree with your priority ordering, and that is how I have tried to approach the restorations that I have been involved with.




> For me, the questions that has to do with actual constructional restoration, will be sometimes harder to answer or decide which way to chose. Those are the ones that bothered me when I was deciding wherever to do this by myself or not.


These are healthy (and ethical!) reservations.  That said, I think as a luthier, most of the techniques will be largely similar.  Yes, there may be some insight that a lute or guitar builder might bring that might differ from that of a violin maker, but I think the opposite is also true, and these differences can be easily managed. From what I've seen, crack repair is viewed similarly.  Table cracks are often cleaned, reglued, and then "cleated" from below (I think this equates to your term "studs", where small reinforcing blocks are glued across the crack, and then worked down with a chisel?).  Violins have rather flexible ribs.... mandolins typically don't. Sometimes a crack simply cannot be closed without distorting the instrument.  In those cases I have seen splines inserted with success to close a crack.  On my Fabricatore, Larry closed and cleated some cracks, and at least one was splined.

In my experience, the bars on a mandolin top mostly are there to resist the downward pressure of the strings and "shape" the top, but they also define what areas of the top can move freely in response to the strings. In many cases of older instruments -- and particularly those which have been subjected to later high-tension strings -- the bars have simply come loose on the ends, and regluing them is sufficient for them to once again do their job.  Unlike the rocking motion of a violin bridge (with sound post and bass bar to transfer vibrations), mandolins are fairly simple acoustically.

I completely agree that it is essential to try to understand the pressures and tensions that are placed on the instrument.  One of the areas where I am continually surprised is with the "weight" of these instruments.  They were built extremely lightly, and sometimes it is tempting to reinforce things that seem structurally under-built.  I think it is _generally_ worth resisting that temptation. My little Cremonese mandolin has a top that is less than a millimeter in thickness... Not only does this work, but it produces a very loud little instrument that seems just impossibly small.  Your point is well taken that it is through maintaining historical accuracy that we learn valuable lessons like this.

We will all chime in with our opinions and experiences... but we are not all luthiers, so you will have to sort out what responses to follow, and which to ignore.  :-)

Best,

Eric

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## Marijan

This is nice example, to clarify what I meant, saying that I need to learn during the restoration process, about the function of instrument and role that individual parts of mandolin construction play in assembly, and what influence those have on the performance of the instrument. If my second most important goal is authentic playability. 

This lower sound hole bar has a  split that occurred somewhere in those two centuries of it`s existence. Top is straight across it`s width at the bar position. So I can`t just simply glue that crack under the force. It would cause a bending of the top. I need to remove the bar. I could re glue the crack after removing it, and end up with the bar that is bent slightly on it`s base. Suppose I`d like to keep the bar, for a reasons of originality, age of wood, sentimental reasons or whatever... In any case I need to straighten the bar by planing it on the gluing surface, so it can be glued without any unnecessary tension. By planing it I`am lowering it for lets say two mm on the middle point. Now, what is effect of my intervention and intention to preserve original piece, to playability. I simply don`t know. That is why I need to include some kind of learning process in the job. To know, is it OK to do it that way, or easier one, make a new one. It`s simple and quickly performed task to replicate the old one with a piece of 150-200 years old wood.

 

Again, I don`t expect to be assisted on strictly technical, luthier points here (I`d be glad though if some of opinions does occur occasionally), I know well enough, from violin making, that even after few hundred  years of making history, we still struggle with full understanding of the instrument function. 
Just simply pointing out that for me, at least some understanding of changes on playability I`ll make be deviation from the original state or measurements (like that bar), is essential to make decisions on which way to go with repairs.

Yes, cleats are studs. 

Thanks again Eric, and others, for really helpful participation on this tread. Great place. I`ll try to stay away from my "philosophical"  :Smile:  insights from now on, as much as I can and concentrate to occasional informations and photographs of restoring process itself.

P.S.
I hope I`am not bothering you guys too much, Eric and Alex, If I ask again for the photographs and measurement of the bridge and nut.  

Best,

Marijan

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## etbarbaric

Hi Marijan,

No problem at all.  I enjoy these conversations very much (as I know Alex and others do).  I'll look around for the details of the bridge and nut measurements that we used on my Fabricatore.  They were taken from Alex' 1794 example which had its original nut and bridge.

As to the bar, I would approach it slightly differently.  Unlike a violin top that is carved to a rather fixed shape, these mandolins had very thin (and fairly uniformly) thicknessed tops.  This means that they are extremely flexible in a longitudinal direction (across the short dimension of the top).  If the bars were off, you would be able to bend the spruce top back and forth easily with your hands (along the grain, not across).  This flexibility seems alarming at first, but it is perfectly normal.  In most cases, the top is designed to take its shape from the bars. You will notice that these bigger (taller) bars are on either side of the sound hole... no doubt to reinforce the top where it is missing a large chunk of wood!

The bar is there not only to reinforce, but also to "tension", or stiffen, and give the top its shape.  In other words, the bar _intensionally_ has a curved "face" that is glued to the underside of the table, and that curve should not be removed.  The idea is for the flexible top to conform to this curve once the bar is glued in place.  The top may well be flat now, but it likely was initially slightly convex (curved outward in a longitudinal dimension). This curve not only helps the top resist the downward pressures it must, but it also "tensions" the top to make it stiffer, which helps in sound production.  Think of the bar as a little wooden spring.  Of course, this is also why the ends of these bars typically come loose (or split) over time, since they are under tension.

That said, depending on the glue joint, you may well want to remove the bar, reglue the split, and then reglue the bar to the top.  If you look back at the thread about my 1793 Fabricatore, you'll see that one of the bars on my instrument had an unfortunate knot at the end, which had long since popped out due to the tension (in almost an identical location to your split!) Larry chose to fabricate a new bar in that case since material was actually missing from the bar.  In any case, the curve of the bar should be retained, IMHO.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense.

Best,

Eric

ps - What does your neck block look like from the inside?  :-)

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## etbarbaric

Hi again Marijan,

I looked more closely at your photo, and its seems to me that *both* of the bars below the soundhole are loose on the end, and both are slightly split.  Again, this is not a surprise.  If one bar failed, it increased the job that the other bar had to do. To my eye, neither of them needs to be replaced, but simply repaired.  If you do replace one or both, I would recommend copying the curve when making the new bar.  In my opinion, the fix vs. replace decision should be based on whether you think a new bar will hold up better than a glued bar.  Here then, is the playability vs. originality trade off!  :-) 

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

To answer my own query...

I would say that best case the strength of the bar is only as good as the strength of the glue joint between the bar and the top.  If you repair the bar, your glue joint will presumably be no different (stronger or weaker).

With that observation, I guess I'd do what I could to repair and keep the bars.

Best,

Eric

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## Dobe

Thank you Marijan & Margriet so much for this thread.  Looking forward to following it.  True museum pieces that will play again someday !   :Smile:

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## Margriet

Thank you Dobe, for telling that you like it. And thanks to Marijan, Eric and Alex.
I love this thread and the way people are involved, taking care, with respect for the instrument and it's history. 
Good to know that more people are reading and watching !

Margriet

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## Marijan

> Hi Marijan,
> 
> No problem at all.  I enjoy these conversations very much (as I know Alex and others do).  I'll look around for the details of the bridge and nut measurements that we used on my Fabricatore.  They were taken from Alex' 1794 example which had its original nut and bridge.
> 
> As to the bar, I would approach it slightly differently.  Unlike a violin top that is carved to a rather fixed shape, these mandolins had very thin (and fairly uniformly) thicknessed tops.  This means that they are extremely flexible in a longitudinal direction (across the short dimension of the top).  If the bars were off, you would be able to bend the spruce top back and forth easily with your hands (along the grain, not across).  This flexibility seems alarming at first, but it is perfectly normal.  In most cases, the top is designed to take its shape from the bars. You will notice that these bigger (taller) bars are on either side of the sound hole... no doubt to reinforce the top where it is missing a large chunk of wood!
> 
> The bar is there not only to reinforce, but also to "tension", or stiffen, and give the top its shape.  In other words, the bar _intensionally_ has a curved "face" that is glued to the underside of the table, and that curve should not be removed.  The idea is for the flexible top to conform to this curve once the bar is glued in place.  The top may well be flat now, but it likely was initially slightly convex (curved outward in a longitudinal dimension). This curve not only helps the top resist the downward pressures it must, but it also "tensions" the top to make it stiffer, which helps in sound production.  Think of the bar as a little wooden spring.  Of course, this is also why the ends of these bars typically come loose (or split) over time, since they are under tension.
> 
> That said, depending on the glue joint, you may well want to remove the bar, reglue the split, and then reglue the bar to the top.  If you look back at the thread about my 1793 Fabricatore, you'll see that one of the bars on my instrument had an unfortunate knot at the end, which had long since popped out due to the tension (in almost an identical location to your split!) Larry chose to fabricate a new bar in that case since material was actually missing from the bar.  In any case, the curve of the bar should be retained, IMHO.
> ...


Sorry for delayed replies. I usually put myself behind the computer desk when I came from the workshop, toward the evening, have time to check mails and other things, perhaps send a reply or two, and than time comes when my dear wife goes in bad. And time zone is not ideal either for real time communication with all of you. So thanks for following. 

Most valuable informations Eric. Thank you very much. It absolutely makes sense. Knowing that, I`ll remove two lower bars, fix the cracks, clean the gluing surface and re glue those again. It`s unlikely that another possible failure will occur on the repair area. 
Thanks for taking time to look for the bridge/nut files, on advance. 

Eric provided a bunch of great photographs, but few more can`t hurt. I`ll make drawings - sketches of the construction parts and instrument as a whole, during the restoration process, which will include all measurements I`d be able to measure on opened instrument. Scans will be available on request.
Photographs of the interior. Water marked paper as Eric reported on his Fabricatore, I wonder is it similar one. Neck nail as suggested, interesting piece of lower block, which had to be re glued partially. And interior bracing.



Best!
Marijan

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## Marijan

I did some basic work on construction late yesterday and today after my bass bar was glued in latest violin I work on. 

I removed upper sound hole bar and small reinforcement bar below the neck block. There was a crack on the center of the plate running from the sound hole toward the neck to the start of the plate ornamentation. It was slightly opened at the sound-hole position so I made narrow patch bad along the crack, and placed the patch in it. After the trimming, bars where inspected, cleaned and re glued on its position, but just to the point of the main crack on the right side above the hole, so the crack could be manipulated during repair.

It was taken care for the crack on the left edge, the whole piece actually, which was almost broken of long time ago. Crack was cleaned, and re glued.



Lower block was loose on one side. I opened it a little more and re glued it. There is a crack going over all four pin holes. That will be addressed  later with hardwood patch, small spiral bushings will be inserted to the  pin holes just in case.



Best,
Marijan

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## Marijan

One grain insert was made out of the spruce of similar age the instrument is. It was prepared for main top crack on the right side above the sound hole. Closing with pressure is impossible, due to the age of the crack, top was stabilized  in this position.  
Crack was cleaned and dry clamped at the hole to ensure alignment, while inserting wood. 
Top and the unglued part of the upper bar where not glued at this pint. Just a crack to the point where inlay starts. 
The rest of the crack will be closed from inside and reinforced with cleat, after the last 10mm of the bar is glued with the top.

Ebony frets where removed to make crack repair and clamping easier. Complete ones will be put back in it`s position (all came off without any breakage) later, broken ones will be replaced with new ebony frets.



Best,
Marijan

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## etbarbaric

Hi Marijan,

Thanks for sharing your wonderful photos.  It looks like you are doing a careful and excellent job.  I'm short on time today, but let me just add a couple comments.

My own Fabricatore required a "spline" inserted above the sound hole... very close to the position of the crack in your instrument.  This looks like the right approach to me in cases where the crack can not be easily closed.

Yes!  That (partial) watermark does look very similar to the one we found inside my instrument.  For those just joining us, the Fabricatore family also apparently were early paper makers. Many of their instruments (even their guitars) were coated on the inside with paper.  We didn't find this watermark in any catalogs (yes, there are such things), but Larry made a careful trace of it... I'll have to dig it up!

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Here is the watermark we found in the 1793 Fabricatore mandolin.  Though complete, the watermark was fairly faint, so Larry made a "vague and conjectural" sketch of what he could see.  To me it looks like a snail sitting on a canon... I'd be very interested if anyone turns up a reference to this watermark.  It seems highly likely that the Fabricatores would use their own paper inside their instruments, but it would be nice to "prove" that conjecture.

Best,

Eric

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## Marijan

> Here is the watermark we found in the 1793 Fabricatore mandolin.  Though complete, the watermark was fairly faint, so Larry made a "vague and conjectural" sketch of what he could see.  To me it looks like a snail sitting on a canon... I'd be very interested if anyone turns up a reference to this watermark.  It seems highly likely that the Fabricatores would use their own paper inside their instruments, but it would be nice to "prove" that conjecture.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Eric


Funny thing, human brain and it`t perception.  I`d never see snail on the canon by myself. First impression to me was some kind of musketeer head with feather on the heat. I`ll try to get better image on my mandolin. Problem is that the only full size mark is directly under the label.

Best,
Marijan

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## Marijan

Completing main crack repair. 

Eric, in violin making heated sand bags are used frequently to bent the wood to desired shape. Step by step process, which can take weeks. But here, you cant do that. You could close the gape this way on the end of the crack, near the edge, but you would not  reach  closing at the rosette point. If you look the line of the purfling on the edge on photographs, you will see that with splint, the crack is closed in perfect shape to add purfling without any bumps, and the same goes for the rosette area. This definitely is correct way to address this kind of damage.

Final tush up will be made after light top cleaning. Problem with old cracks like this one, which was open for many years, probably decades is wear on the the edges of the crack. You could widen the crack, by cutting some original wood out, to get it perfectly even, but I am reluctant to do that, in particularly on visible part of the instrument. Left side of the crack, as you are looking at the photo has more wear  than right side. 
But it came out nicely. Just stained to the level or two under the final scale, with natural dye for now.



Next repair, missing edge. Purfling and ivory edge platform.  

Best,
Marijan

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## etbarbaric

Thanks Marijan,

Very nice (and virtually invisible) repair!  The crack above the soundhole on my instrument was slightly more central.  As you can see in the old 1793 Fabricatore thread, it was likewise stained to be virtually invisible.

Best,

Eric

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## etbarbaric

Incidentally, I was surprised that nobody mentioned the barring differences between the 1793 and 1796 G. B. Fabricatore mandolins.... :-)

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## Marijan

> Incidentally, I was surprised that nobody mentioned the barring differences between the 1793 and 1796 G. B. Fabricatore mandolins.... :-)


Indeed! I missed that. I should have your photos on hand all the time to see that. 
There is an old say here saying that you can fail to see the tree from the wood, or is it vice versa? Didn`t see the bars from the bracing here.

I looked carefully if there are any signs that could indicate the change of the bracing system on my top during it`s life time, but there are no such signs, it was constructed that way by the maker.

Your upper bar is tilted quite a lot and it covers a god portion of the top area along the grain. My upper bars are tilted gradually. First one slightly and one above a little more. 
Any thoughts about the reasons for such a change in such a short period of time?

Thanks Eric.

Best,
Marijan

Edit: Nope, at the second look, area that is covered on my top is much larger, and upper bracing tilt looks the same like one on yours photo.

----------


## Margriet

> Incidentally, I was surprised that nobody mentioned the barring differences between the 1793 and 1796 G. B. Fabricatore mandolins.... :-)


What a speed in this thread ! :Smile:  
Though, very very nice !

Regarding the restoration I did the first step: made an appointment with my dentist, to try an X-Ray ! We do not know yet if this will be possible, in a technical way. We will see, the dentist was laughing, he likes to try it.

This is really the first step; I need to be sure that the joint is strong enough, before continuing. 
I took care of the leather of the case, putting oil on. It was very dry. And watching if some woodworm in the case is dead or still alive.

Meanwhile I watch this thread with great interest. Such detailed and clear photos you make, Marijan!


Margriet

----------


## etbarbaric

"Get thee to a Dentist!"  Great idea.... I was contemplating a Veterinarian (animal doctor)... :-)




> Any thoughts about the reasons for such a change in such a short period of time?


It is difficult to say, of course.  With three (and maybe four) examples from the same maker in our hands, we may be able to start drawing some conclusions over time (1793, 1794, 1796).  One thing is for certain, mandolin design was in fairly constant flux, and these late 18th-century instruments represent something of a pinnacle of design for the instrument.  They are larger, deeper, and heavier than those instruments made in the 1770s... and much bigger than the earliest Neapolitan examples. They bulge... almost muscularly. Ornament has gotten a little silly (my presumed Fabricatore actually has a piece of mirrored glass embedded in the peghead!). Maybe playing a 1770s mandolin in the 1790s was much like being seen in public with last year's iPad... or last month's mobile phone...  :-)

The limited stringing information we have is (I think) from the 1770s.  It is hard to say much definitive but it is quite possible that (as with most things) string tensions, and perhaps pitch standards were rising.  Maybe string technology was changing too.  I am unsure of what evidence we have for the advent of steel stringing on Neapolitan mandolins. Alex?  Eugene?

After all, it would only be a few years later before old violins everywhere would start having their necks replaced and lengthened, bridges replaced, fingerboards lengthened, neck angles increased, sound posts and bass bars enlarged, etc.  It's almost 1800.... the Iron Age of music...  The harpsichords and lutes are seen but not heard.  In the background you can hear the sounds of wood-frame square pianos collapsing under the increased tension of steel strings ("Snap.... CAVOOOOOM!").  Bach has been dead for almost 50 years... it is almost time to move on... drama... passion... volume... SOUND!!! This little instrument was born on the precipice... the brink of a time of incredible musical change.... It represents the best technology of its day, and yet it is about to become obsolete.  The wire-strung Neapolitan mandolin was about to almost vanish for a few decades... only to emerge reborn and reformed... 

Listen to Beethoven's First Symphony (1795?) ... and compare it to the Ninth (1824).   It has always amazed me that they were written by the same man. 

(Oh, man... I just got major goosebumps hearing Beethoven in my head... :-))

OK... so maybe I get a little carried away... apologies... 

Best,

Eric

----------


## etbarbaric

One more data point.  I won't speak for Alex, but his book "De Mandoline en de Gitaar: Door de Eeuwen Heen" shows his 1794 Fabricatore has having the double-barred arrangement, with the lower bar at an angle and the bar closest to the sound hole drawn as horizontal.  There is a sketch of the barring only, but it seems mostly similar to the 1796 instrument.  Unfortunately, I do not speak Dutch, so I am limited to looking at the pictures.

Bset,

Eric

----------


## Marijan

> What a speed in this thread ! 
> Though, very very nice !
> 
> Regarding the restoration I did the first step: made an appointment with my dentist, to try an X-Ray ! We do not know yet if this will be possible, in a technical way. We will see, the dentist was laughing, he likes to try it.
> 
> This is really the first step; I need to be sure that the joint is strong enough, before continuing. 
> I took care of the leather of the case, putting oil on. It was very dry. And watching if some woodworm in the case is dead or still alive.
> 
> Meanwhile I watch this thread with great interest. Such detailed and clear photos you make, Marijan!
> ...


I had no real intention to speed or rush things, Margriet. I just hate to see instrument like this, hanging around the workshop. Wait till I get to the edges, linings, purflings, inlay.... You will mis my posts  :Wink: .
I am behind my bench for a nice portion of the day, and there are always moments, when glue need to harden, or varnish to dry... Sometimes I just need a break of the usual routine. Those are the moment I do thing or two on mandolin. 
It this stage of restoration, when construction of the instrument is taken care for, the main thing is to decide what kind of repair to chose for individual crack, and in particularly to arrange appropriate clamping systems, for each and every crack. That is why I do post pictures of actual repair process from time to time. I hope it`s not to detailed or boring. If I go in details too much just let me know please, any of you. I am aware that this is not luthier forum.

But, until someone stops me:



This is the way I chose for two top cracks, that where slightly over the limit, that would make me feel comfortable by just pressure closing  and cleating them. I used line patch, made out of 180 years spruce, came out of the old drawer bottom.   

Thanks for kindness Margriet and god luck at the dentist. This little  :Chicken:  summarize my attitude toward this medical field. I`ll take urgency.

Best,
Marijan

----------


## etbarbaric

Very nice Marijan.  I, for one, will not stop you!  Having this level of detail is very valuable, both from an interest standpoint, and also as food for thought for those who would contemplate restoration at this level.

After 215 years this lucky little instrument has clearly found its way into the right hands.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Marijan

> Listen to Beethoven's First Symphony (1795?) ... and compare it to the Ninth (1824).   It has always amazed me that they were written by the same man. 
> 
> (Oh, man... I just got major goosebumps hearing Beethoven in my head... :-))
> 
> OK... so maybe I get a little carried away... apologies... 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Eric


I enjoy and found your posting most informative and helpful at the same time, so no apologies needed. 
My older daughter read a poem I wrote some 30 year ago (and not just one, she found a whole notebook - paper one). I tied to compare it to one I wrote for my wifes birthday a year ago. Hmmmm...

I am probably going to order the book Alex wrote. Here are two photographs of how the bars where bent. These are two lower (wide) ones. I removed and repaired them. There was almost no pressure needed to close the cracks, which where very shallow. Wood is solid, healthy and still flexible, so bars will go back on plates.



Upper bar was almost flat, just a slight curve.

Edit: bars are positioned in between two wooden blocks, so you can see only a portion looking out of the fixture, and not the full height. 

Best,
Marijan

----------


## etbarbaric

Great photos! That amount of curvature is more or less exactly what I would expect to see.  Of course the curve will likely flatten out a little as the bars are put under tension when glued to the table.

Best,

Eric

ps - Thinking of my own children, I suddenly find a need to go and re-hide my old notes and poems!  :-)

----------


## Margriet

> I had no real intention to speed or rush things, Margriet.  I hope it`s not to detailed or boring. If I go in details too much just let me know please, any of you. I am aware that this is not luthier forum.
> But, until someone stops me:
> 
> Marijan


Oh , please go on Marijan, I love it ! I only said this because Eric was surprised that nobody noticed the difference between the barring differences.... not everyone is able to look every day on the forum and to integrate all the information.
Therefore it is very good that it is on the forum, where can you look it over and over and read it back. 

The veterinarian, yes, that would have been a good option as well! I did not think about it. Ours is playing guitar....now I have to wait until the 16th. Maybe I will try the vet. Once I know more, I will post. Meanwhile I will try to know more of the story of the instrument, by asking the seller, if he knows something, how it has come in Prague, former owner etc. The seller does not really speak english well......so I need to have it translated.  Until later.

Margriet

----------


## James Sanford

I am loving this thread.  Any photos and information you share is great. Never too many.

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Marijan,

I have e-mailed you the details of Alex' bridge including two photos and some measurements.  Please let me know if you don't receive them.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Marijan

Hello Eric, thank you very much for sending pictures and measurement, and to Alex for providing them. Let me know please if you got my private mail. 

Thanks James and Margriet. Tempo will drop a little in next days. I`m working on the neck and scroll for violin which has to be finished till the and of April for Frankfurt fair. There will not be so much room for mandolin.

Best,
Marijan

----------


## deloid

Marijan is a good friend of mine but even so, I can say without bias that these images and his approach shows his extraordinary talent and eye for stringed instruments. Knowing how well he makes his violins (and photographs them) leaves me expecting this level of artistry. What I find odd is that I joined this forum last November to learn more about these instruments from an obviously good group of people only to find my friend posting and doing things that I want to do.
Great work my friend!
Dean

----------


## Marijan

> Marijan is a good friend of mine but even so, I can say without bias that these images and his approach shows his extraordinary talent and eye for stringed instruments. Knowing how well he makes his violins (and photographs them) leaves me expecting this level of artistry. What I find odd is that I joined this forum last November to learn more about these instruments from an obviously good group of people only to find my friend posting and doing things that I want to do.
> Great work my friend!
> Dean


Thank you for kind words Dr. Lapinel. Probably too kind. 
It is nice to have you here my friend and as always, I am looking forward to your participation, as this thread goes on.

Best,
Marijan

----------


## Marijan

Hello Margriet,

I just replied on your message, but I am not sure if I did it OK. Can`t see sent item. So just to make sure, thank you for your offer, I am very much interested. My mail is: marijan.radaljac@amis.net 

All the best,
Marijan

----------


## Margriet

Today we got X- ray photos, thanks of our vet / music friend and Eric for the good idea.

These tell us, that there is no iron nail on the neck/head joint, where the reparation is. Let 's hope that the area is strong enough to hold the tension of the strings............

Margriet

----------


## Marijan

Perhaps somewhere during this 200 years, someone used a tail piece on this mandolin, or is there a possibility that it has some kind of string guard (protection of the top edge from the string pressure) on the buttons position as it was made? 
There is a distinctive shape of dirt around the place where it could be positioned, and shape is visible. Maybe I should take better angle but it can be seen. The width at the edge is equal with the width of main ornament on the top at bottom block position.

Didn`t found any reference photo that would indicate the use of this kind of protection. But again it was only net search. 
Eric, was there only bone or ivory edge stripe on yours?



Best,
Marijan

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Marijan,

It could likely have been an ivory (or bone) binding. The last and broadest one called edge/border binding. Gio. Battista Fabricatore and practically all other Neapolitan makers also used wood for it, and sometimes we see a smal rectangular piece of hard wood (ebony) to protect the spruce, smaller linings and Mother of Pearl at the point where the attached strings 'edge' the sound table from the pins at the base.

This last way of protecting the table wood from wear and damage can be seen at the photo attached of my 1794 Fabricatore. And the continuous ivory edge binding - as on Margriet's Vinaccia - is also seen on a Genuese mandolin type made by another luthier of the Vinaccia family. 

Looking at your Gio. B. Fabricatore, I think a continuous ivory or bone edge binding would be thé best option to go for. 


Best and success,

Alex.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Hi Marijan and all,

To clarify a point made by Eric a while ago about the bars, braces and wooden re-inforcement underneath the soundtable of my 1794 Fabricatore I tried to video tape it today. Hopefully a better understanding of how the braces and reinforcements of the sound table in Fabricatore's early Neapolitan mandolin are or can be like. 
Although the quality of the film isn't that good (pleace view the video in the full Youtube 1080p HD setting), it will at least give you an idea about how the Neapolitan Luthiers worked.


Best and enjoy,

Alex.

----------


## Marijan

Hi Alex,

thank you for suggestion and clarification. And for that great video. When Margriet sent me a scan from a catalogue where 1790 Fabricatore is present and sketch from your 1794 Fabricatore bracing, I thought that some kind of trasition in bracing technique was made from 1793-179  from two to three bars system taking in acount Erics 93, and yours amn mine 94 and 96. But I re read carefuly text from "Margriets" catalogue and 3 bars are mentioned there on that 1790. So I was jumping a conclussion. Thigs are obviously much more complicated than it may apeare at first sometimes.

Regarding border binding - if we pressume that string buttons are originals than something was inserted in between the bowl wall and the widening on the button shaft. Both buttons when unserted in holes stick out for about 1mm or so from their fully inserted position. I`ll post a photo later, I am writing this while waiting for my care to be repaired at car service. I`ll make ivory lining like on Margriets Vinaccia, but I`ll make aditional bone or ebony "protector" as adition which will not be glued anywhere, just held in place with buttons konus shaft and string itself, so it could be used or not if prefered. There is no sign of glue anywhere on the bowl in buttons position. So if this was there, it was glued like the ivory lining only on the edge (something like L profile with narow upper section), or it was made so that it ended flush with ivory lining at the top.

Thank you again.

Best,
Marijan

----------


## etbarbaric

Ah, what fun!  Alex, thank you very much for the video... and the Bach!  My day is 100% better now.

I am smiling too because of all of the technology that we casually wield these days... What would old Fabricatore think to know that people on opposite sides of the globe were discussing his handiwork and actually collaborating trying to understand and preserve his craft?  Digital photography, X-rays, 1080p video... And that his little wooden boxes would end up in Slovenia, Holland, America, etc. 200+ years later... and actually be recognized and shared.  Great fun.

Alex, one thing I noticed from your video.  Your instrument too seems to have the odd little "shims" on either side of the neck block.  They are clearly original as the paper of the bowl is laminated over top of them. There is a photo of these in the second page of the 1793 Fabricatore thread.

Marijan, I think you make good observations and offer a good solution.  I will look closely at my instrument later today, but my recollection is that there was nothing other than the binding taking the pressure of the strings.  Obviously one goal is to keep the pressure of the strings from cutting into the soft spruce.  Of course, such a device *might* have been a latter addition designed to combat high-tension steel strings... Or maybe (given the thickness you mention), it was more likely intended to reinforce the leverage of the hitch pins... a sort of an external extension to the end block, perhaps?  Hard to say.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Marijan

Here is a photograph of the button which shows how deep it enters in to the hole. And one of that area where that shape can be visible little better, I hope. And a quick sketch of how I think that guard it looked like. 

Eric, yes, by all means it could be a latter addition as  mentioned earlier. For that reason I`ll go with continuous ivory lining and make a piece just in case. Again, if the buttons that survived where placed there by G.B. Fabricatore, which we will never know with 100% certainty, than there is a strong chance that the guard was there at first. No harm, but little extra work making one.



Best,
Marijan

----------


## Schlegel

I did not, sadly, save a picture, but I remember a guard of metal like your L-profile from the 1800's.

----------


## Marijan

> I did not, sadly, save a picture, but I remember a guard of metal like your L-profile from the 1800's.


I have seen those, but on later instruments. I doubt that it would be metal one here, assuming hypothetical  originality of one. Distance between the button and bowl wall is almost 2 mm, it seems little to thick for metal piece.

Since most of those instruments have just continuous bone/ivory lining or some kind of saddle, there would be no sense to make it differently, not being absolutely sure about the original.  
I posted photos mostly because those marks does show a signs, that once there was an additional piece inserted on that area. Usually this kind of marks are erased during years, by polishing, cleaning etc. It`s just a nice, preserved historical piece of evidence which can give a clue or two, and nothing more.   

Best,
Marijan

----------


## Schlegel

I did once see a leather piece used this way on a mandolin- this would accord with a 2mm distance better than metal, and the tannin might well leave a visible stain. Does it look to you more like a stain on the finish than an impression left from a hard material?

----------


## Marijan

Neither actually, it`s like when you leave some object on the table and forget to clean the dust for a year or so. Dirt accumulated around the piece created the shape that can be seen. Sweat combined with usual dirt on hands, cleaning (strings and object itself prevent you to clean to the very edge of the object) and simply touching, will create darker area around the clean one. That clean area can be seen after the guard is removed. No sign of discoloration, staining, or impression.

best,
Marijan

----------


## Schlegel

If there's no impression at all, then perhaps we can guess it was at least not made of metal, whose sharp edges often cut in a little. Leather, tortoise, or ivory are all possible.  Celluloid could work well to imitate tortoise, and it's easy to shape.

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Thanks Marijan, Eric and all. 

Just back from Copenhagen so here my belated reply; I am not so sure about the "guard' (or perhaps better: string pressure protection piece) in your drawing is a good option, Marijan. Yes, perhaps to protect foreseeable future damage, but it is to big, to large. 
The buttons should not be 'included' in the ivory plack. Never seen something like that on Early Neapolitan Mandolins that was original. But maybe I misunderstand what you are up to...
I did however encounter small rectangular 'L'-shaped pieces of bone, ivory and sometimes even bronze that protected the outer linings from damage caused by the pressure of the strings. I will look for you; perhaps I have a photo of one such mandolin showing that area. 

Yes, Eric; the wonders of modern technoligy! We live in a fascinating time; it is great to follow this topic and see the progress of the Fabricatore mandolin being restored, Greetings :-).  


Best, Alex.

----------


## Marijan

Thank you Schlegel, Alex, perhaps, after all, I am just seeing the dirt accumulation around the buttons, and around the area that was not reachable for cleaning due to the string position. I do not know. It is hard to judge this kind of things with certainty, in particularly when cleaning action leave symmetrical marks, which can be deceiving to the eye. I was quite convinced that shape was left by something that was positioned there. 

I am sure that this kind of protector was something that was used regularly on early instruments, there would be no problem identifying it. 

I hope I`ll be able to  continue the restoration process as soon as possible, two more tide weeks. 

Greetings / Groeten,

Best
Marijan

----------


## Marijan

It`s been a while. Last two months I didn`t have any time to work on mandolin. 

I managed to do few small but structurally important things in last two weeks though. I reestablished the missing edge and the edge that was chipped away and lost during the years with angeled joint on the treble side of the top. Same 200 years old piece of spruce was used than one I used on crack repairs.
Bars are back on. Edge still needs to be completely finalized (thickness) on some areas,  from the inside of the top.  

Beside that, CT scan was performed on the mandolin, impressive little video. It is large file to post it here though. 10cm long bent nail in the neck. No crack on the neck, strong healthy wood. 
Bowl was inspected very carefully using slight bending pressure and strong inside light to check the joints of the lamellas (wood stripes). Everything  OK.  
Fortunately, this mandolin didn`t go through any violent events it seems. Just decades of the resting after it was used for the last time.



Best,
Marijan

----------


## brunello97

Amazing video, Alex. Werner Herzog has got nothing on you.   :Wink: 

Mick

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Thanks Mick, It was a real 'tour de force' to make it!  :Smile: 

Nice to see, Marijan, that the thread is proceeding now. Nice work, sofar.


Best, Alex.

----------


## etbarbaric

Yes, very good to see this thread come back to life.  If you compare Alex's video to the photos of my 1793 instrument, you will see lots in common, end block, sculpted neck block, head of iron nail, etc. Just for fun, I will try to take some photos of the other late instrument that I attribute to the Fabricatore atelier in the days to come.  I'll just post them in this thread for context unless Marijan or someone else would rather I start a new thread.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Alex Timmerman

Posting those photos here is a very good idea, Eric. Can't wait to see them :-)! 

Cheers! Alex.

----------


## Marijan

> Yes, very good to see this thread come back to life.  If you compare Alex's video to the photos of my 1793 instrument, you will see lots in common, end block, sculpted neck block, head of iron nail, etc. Just for fun, I will try to take some photos of the other late instrument that I attribute to the Fabricatore atelier in the days to come.  I'll just post them in this thread for context unless Marijan or someone else would rather I start a new thread.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Eric


I would like to see this thread really alive, jumping all around like rabbit, on daily basis.  Unfortunately I can not spend so much time  with mandolin as I would like, working on few restorations for customers and making instruments I need to deliver, at the same time. And I really don`t want to rush things on this, not good thing to do when working on such a delicate 200 years old item. When I have time to do something with full concentration and attention, I will do it. Slowly step by step.
So, I`ll keep posting photos that will cover the progress as things go on , so those that may be interested, can follow it. 

Eric on contrary, I would be glad to see photos in this thread. Like I sad few times, every information in any format, photo, video, info, is useful and most welcome. I am thankful for everything that has been sad and shown so far.

Thank you Alex for supporting words.

Best
Marijan

----------


## Graham McDonald

Here are some pics of another Giovanni Battista Fabricatore from 1796. It is in the German National Museum in Nuremberg, and the pic were taken by Stephen Morey in the late 80s. These are scanned in from the negatives on a cheap scanner, but over the next few weeks I have access to a much higher quality scanner so I can get better quality. Hope they might be useful in some way.

cheers

graham

----------


## Marijan

Thank you so much Graham. These are great already but It would be really nice if you could post higher resolution ones. It looks pretty much like mine. 

Best,
Marijan

----------


## etbarbaric

Yes... definitely another G.B. Fabricatore.  The end-clasp carving is similar to the 1793 instrument.  And... of course... the inlay surround is identical to Marijan's instrument... and the instrument for sale at Vintage Instruments, and my attributed instrument.  I hope to be able to find time (and light!) to take photos in the next day or two.

Best,

Eric

ps - Graham... More to the point... you *must* tell us about these negatives... please... pretty please.... Morey's work was a real contribution to the literature and I have spent many an hour pouring through his book and wishing I could take such a trip through the museums of the world...

----------


## Graham McDonald

Not wishing to hijack Marijan's thread, but Stephen has kindly given me access to his negatives and prints that were the basis of his research on his book on 18th century mandolins. The intention is that we create a publicly accessible archive of these images, and the information about the instruments and I am very much open to suggestions of how this might be done. I have done quick scans of the negs of around 150 mandolin family instruments that are in various European museums, and will be doing much higher resolution of some of them to be used in my forthcoming (well, eventually) book on mandolins that I have discussed with at least a couple of the regulars here. Currently on chapter 7, in the middle of 19th century Italy, and the Americas still to come, so any serious work on an archive of 18th century instruments has to take a back seat for a while.

cheers

graham

----------


## etbarbaric

Hi Graham,

What a worthwhile project! Thanks for sharing the news.  Let us know how we can help.

Best,

Eric

----------


## etbarbaric

OK... I seem to have managed to upload a couple images (and there was much rejoicing!!!).

This is the instrument that I have referred to a couple of times, that I suspect is a late instrument from the Fabricatore atelier.  The instrument was once labeled, but the printed portion of the label was intentionally gouged out a very long time ago (judging from the accumulated dirt). This instrument was originally offered to me by an unscrupulous but otherwise widely respected luthier/dealer who will go unnamed. It was offered initially with his attribution that it was "a Vinaccia"... I received a wonderful packet in the mail with a fancy cover letter on letterhead and high-quality photos with labels that said things like "Vinaccia peg"... and so forth.  The luthier was offering the instrument fully restored for a 5-figure price!  He urged me to rapidly make up my mind as there were other anxious buyers waiting in the wings with their cash... I demured... Some months later I ran onto the very same instrument on a Website for a much lower price and snapped it up...  caveat emptor!

These are not the best photos, but I'll try to call out a number of interesting features of this instrument:
- It is clearly quite late, given the very deep body.  In fact, it seems to push some limits.  The fluted ribs are each separated by an ivory/ebony/ivory purfling strip.  The back is so deep, and the curve so sharp that some of these strips seemingly couldn't make the turn.
- It is more ornate than the typical Fabricatore.  Yes, that is actually a piece of mirrored glass embedded in the peghead (used for signaling for help when you loose your place? :-))  The peghead itself is an amazing sandwich of TS and pearl/ebony/ivory/TS-over-wood/ivory/ebony/TS and pearl... and of course mirrored glass... and it is quite thin overall
- The inlay style, soundhole shape, scratchplate shape, and soundhole inlay are all very reminiscent of G.B. Fabricatore's later work... I have found the identical sound-hole inlay element on at least three labeled G.B. Fabricatore instruments (Marijan's, the Vintage Instruments instrument, and a six-course instrument in France). Wait! The one that Graham listed makes that four.... Perhaps more importantly, I have not seen this inlay detail on other maker's instruments.
- As I think I mentioned earlier, the instrument came with a tiny and well-shaped ebony bridge that has very slight indentations for four single strings.  As you can see from the photo, the ivory or bone nut is also configured for four single strings.  Clearly this was built as a double-coursed instrument, but the shading on the top makes me believe it has worn the four-string bridge for most of its functional life.

The endclasp is very ornately carved, and the carving design matches the style of the pearl inlay on the peghead.  There are four matching dark hitch pins, and a matching strap button... all doubtless original to the instrument.  The instrument came with one boxwood peg and one darker peg.  The boxwood peg is very similar to Marijan's peg, and it is the one that I copied for the 1793 Fabricatore rehabilitation described on these pages.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something a little odd about the peg-head join.  The angle is very much straighter than is normal for these instruments.  Some of the inlay near just above the nut is also somewhat incongruous... The pearl color doesn't match and and the shapes seem very clumsy.  To my eye, the bottom three pieces of pearl don't fit the pattern of the rest of the peghead. There are also some strange lines (I hesitate to call them cracks) on the sides of the peg-head join in the TS veneer that I don't yet understand.  All of this makes me wonder if some sort of change or repair has taken place at that location in the far distant past.

Anyway... I wanted to share this instrument with you all and I'm interested in your comments, thoughts, and input.

Best,

Eric

ps - I did mention that I'm a fool for ornament, didn't I?  :-)

----------


## etbarbaric

I wanted to repeat one more detail that I mentioned when we discussed table frets before.  This instrument has *both* types.  There are four metal staple frets (over the inlay), and then three thin ebony table frets that are glued down to the table wood.

I mention this only because this was not an either/or choice in this case, unless some were changed later.

Best,

Eric

----------


## etbarbaric

One more thing.  I haven't X-rayed this one or had the top off, but it clearly has a dual-barred arrangement below the sound hole.  This is what I would expect to find.

Best,

Eric

----------


## Marijan

Thanks for sharing this photographs. Fascinating instrument. I can not make a good judgement, because of the lack of the experience on mandolins history, but from a "layman" point of view, I wonder, could this be either earlier work of G.B Fabricatore or a later one but finished by another person, son perhaps. Carving design seems to be slightly less elegant and "flowing" than on other samples we have here. The execution of details on pearl ornamentation is different too. Lower, sound-hole and upper pearl inlay (where the upper frets are) of the plate seems to belong together,  but to my eye those three are in some kind of design contradiction with the rest of the pearl inlays (and carving) on the instrument. It feels like instrument was not started and completed by one man (or they weren't anyway I do not know). Plate by G.B. the rest by someone else from their workshop? 
Just a thought, as I sad it may have no sense.

Is mastic consistent all over the instrument? It seems made with ebony dust on the neck. What about the rosette? Red, black?

Best,
Marijan

P.S.
No worry about hijacks please, as long as we stay on old mandolins :-).

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## Marijan

Border stripe, ivory, bone, or whatever, seems to be glued on the edge under a slight tension. From the photograph it seems that it "jumped of" from its original, glued position. What was the actual process of preparation here. Was the stripe cut to shape to follow the edge curve. That is what it seems to be the case on my instrument. I guess it was not bent?

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## etbarbaric

Hi Marijan,

Thanks for taking a look.  You make a plausible conjecture... and many things are possible.  Of course G.B.'s nephew Gennaro continued into the 1800s, and there were other Fabricatore luthiers as well. After looking at many of these instruments, I don't personally find the hand that inconsistent.  Early Neapolitan mandolins often look better from a slight distance than up close... :-)  I have always assumed that it was common for different people to make different parts of these instruments, assembly-line fashion.  Fabricatore in particular seems to have been a higher-volume shop during this period.

I personally don't find the decorative design inconsistent overall as these things go.  Over the top?  Perhaps... :-)  In my experience, it is not at all uncommon for the decorative design themes on these instruments to break somewhat at the join between the table and the fretboard decoration.  In fact, I would actually say that this instrument has more of a consistent transition from table to neck than most, in terms of inlay design, though the scale clearly changes. Sometimes the table and neck inlay designs on other instruments have almost nothing to do with each other and the change is often quite abrupt. Your instrument does this to a lesser degree as well, even though it retains that little the pearl design element consistently throughout.

I'm ever more convinced that the three "sickle-shaped" pieces of pearl above the nut simply do not belong, and they are very disruptive for me visually.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that they have something to do with a repair or a change of some sort.  If you look closely at the digital photo, you can see that the tortoise shell in that area is also not consistent with the rest of the peghead veneer in terms of color and pattern, and it ends in the right place to be an easy patch.

I agree with your comments on the quality of the carving.  For instance, it does not match the very fine workmanship on the end clasp of the 1793 instrument. There are even a couple places (symmetrically) on the end clasp of this instrument where the carving is patched as it was put on.  It literally looks like someone decided that things were too narrow at one part of the design, and they cleverly spliced on some more wood to fill things out. The design on the sides and end-clasp is definitely more free-form... almost improvised to a degree... That said, all of the Fabricatore instruments seem to be somewhat variable in this area, and I can't say that I "recognize" the carving technique from one instrument to another, though some common design elements are present on many instruments.  Some have more "relief" carving than others, for example.  This may have been done by multiple people in the shop over time. To my eye, the _design_ of the carving seems to match the peghead inlay in spirit at least. The decorative design itself is interesting to me, as it seems to combine rather traditional curvy and symmetrical vining with those odd squared vine elements... almost like the introduction of a hint of the random and abstract into something more comfortable and traditional.  I am interested to hear what Alex has to say given his artist's eye.  

On this instrument, the mastic seems consistent on the table.  It is dark reddish in color, allowing for some variation due to what look like repairs near the bottom of the instrument.  The fretboard and peghead are pearl in tortoise shell, not mastic.  My poor-quality photos probably don't communicate this well. There is some minimal mastic filling in the very small gaps between the pearl and the tortoise shell in places on the neck and peghead, and it too appears reddish in color.

Best,

Eric

ps - I cannot say definitively whether the binding was cut or bent but I would lean toward thinking it was bent in this case as it is continuous and in a single piece.  The 1793 instrument was surrounded in pearl, so it was clearly cut and fit.  You are right in that the binding is under some small tension in this case, which supports the idea that it was bent.  A similar ivory (or bone or baleen-like) material was used as a part of the banded dividers between the fluted ribs.  It is this material that has broken in a few places at the sharpest point of the bend of the ribs...

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## stevenmando

I hope you can restore this beautyful mandolin what a treasure  what craftmanship  beautyful beautyful

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## etbarbaric

Hi Steven,

Assuming you are referring to my instrument, then yes, I do hope to have it restored some day.  Maybe when Marijan finishes rehabilitating his Fabricatore I can send him this one?  :-)

Best,

Eric

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## Marijan

Not sure that you have that kind of patience  :Wink: . Thank god, this is not a customers instrument, but mine.

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## Margriet

I promised to come back here, once we started the restoration of our Vincentius Vinaccia 1762. So not a Fabricatore, but we talked already a lot in this thread. Here is a serie of photos that we posted at facebook. We started this spring and she is now ready to be played, next week, in a baroque chamber music course. 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...3&l=005db3f6cf 

It is wonderful to work on an instrument from so long ago  - and to play it .  Gives respect and feeling graceful.

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## Tavy

Great work!  So... do we get to hear her?

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## Margriet

> So... do we get to hear her?


Hope, yes ! ! It is all very new and it has to settle down and I must get used to it.  Did a lot of experimenting with strings and just a this moment it seems to be fine. My level of playing is not such, that it deserves a public recording, but if you are interested, you can tell me and i will send a private one. ( also after some time )

a happy Margriet

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## Eugene

It looks lovely, Margriet.  Congratulations!  It looks like you have the g course only in g, not in octave g'-g.  Have you tried or will you try the octave stringing in the future?  Personally, I quite like the octave stringing on the lowest course for the solo music of the late 18th c.  Do you have Hartig's wire strings on d' and a'?  If so, what do you think?  I still love the sound and playability, but still have to tune the d' course with some frequency.

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## Margriet

> It looks like you have the g course only in g, not in octave g'-g.  Have you tried or will you try the octave stringing in the future? 
> 
> Do you have Hartig's wire strings on d' and a'?  If so, what do you think?  I still love the sound and playability, but still have to tune the d' course with some frequency.


Thanks, Eugene and Tavy, it is nice to have these contacts and I will bring the compliments to Beert, who did the most of the work.
Indeed, I have on the g- course two the same strings. Decided for this, because I am new on this instrument and also in the repertoire and in a few days i will have a baroque chamber music course and for the moment i would like to be able to _play_ and this is more familiar to me.  Maybe in future I will try an octave course.
Yes, I set up with strings from Andrew Hartig, who was very helpful en friendly and who calculated different gauges and tensions. It seems that the d- course keeps in tune. But it is too fast to tell, everything is new and has to settle. For this place it would be too detailled info about all trial and error; for that I will share in private.

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## Marijan

Hi, it`s been a while. I had a spine surgery, wasn`t sure if I woud be able to work again. But I am thankfully back on work at least for 2-3 hours per day.

It`s an old topic I know, but I decided to post few photos and few words about the progress of the restoration work anyway. Perhaps some will still find it intresting.

Here is few shots of the progress made on Fabricatore. I made (cut out) missing parts 
of the outer bone lining (it was bone, not ivory as I fist thought ), than I made 
inner, white stripes for purfling, which was made of bone, not wood.  I had to thinn it down to 0,4mm. I soaked it in vinegar and bent it. Made black stripes. Dry fitted 
where the purfling was missing. Aplied verry thin glue over the 
purfling. Dried it. Leveld purflings with small gauges and chisel. Strong 
tea for light dying the bone. Not tring to hide new parts, but ease the contrast.
Filled red mastic (shellac) where missing. Mostly around the sound hole. That is for now. 

Marijan

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## Marijan

First steps of getting this mess sorted. 

Before, and after cleaning the paper shims thet where found in place where  tortoise was missing. 
Triangle shape on the back of the had will be restored as it was, by overlaping the triangle area with TS and bone stripes that are coming from the neck. So tortoise and bone stripes are doubled on that small triangle.

It is interesting that under the tortoise (over the bare wood and hide glue), there is some sort of celulose - paper layer which I am not sure yet about what was it`s purpose. 
Looking through the tortoise (on the original parts - there are two redone neck tortoise stripes where golden leafs are clearly detectable) it seems that underground is not made out of gold leafs. It is more uniform structure - like paper impegnated with gold powder or something.

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brunello97, 

derbex, 

vic-victor

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## Tavy

> It is interesting that under the tortoise (over the bare wood and hide glue), there is some sort of celulose - paper layer which I am not sure yet about what was it`s purpose.


Almost certainly something light in color that's there as a background for the tortoiseshell - as you say gold leaf is the usual trick to make it stand out, but actually it looks very nearly as good over almost anything pale in color - maple or white plastic binding being a good examples, but white paper may well work just as well - I guess you could just soak it in hide glue and lay it on?

Thanks for the update, and best wishes for your recovery from the surgery!

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## Marijan

Thank you John,
I was under the impression that there was some another material covering the paper layer. But it could be just acumulation of dirt and sweat build up during the years, where tortoiseshel felt of. As it can be seen on photos, there is black surface with some green (oxide like green) patches under it, on the areas, where TS is gone. It is soft and will get much softer when weted.

Thank you for good wishes.

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## Tavy

> Thank you John,
> I was under the impression that there was some another material covering the paper layer. But it could be just acumulation of dirt and sweat build up during the years, where tortoiseshel felt of. As it can be seen on photos, there is black surface with some green (oxide like green) patches under it, on the areas, where TS is gone. It is soft and will get much softer when weted.


Gunky/mouldy hide glue?

Always hard to tell after all these years since it was made.

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## Marijan

It took a couple of days to sort out this small area but it is rewarding to look at the comparation between the before and after photographs.
Working on this kind of instrument realy makes one aprechiate the amount of skill patience and knowledge needed to make such an mandolin.

Bone stripes where lined first, than tortoise, one strip at the time leaving them thick, above the bone lining. Filed, scraped, finished with water and rotenstone. Aplied a drop of vegetble oil and bufed. Few shots.

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Tavy, 

vic-victor

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## Marijan

Although it is time consuming, to clean this, took almost 3 hours, I think that saliva or arteficial saliva is still the safest enzyme cleaner avaliable. Applied with cotton sticks, worked with light circular motions uncovering still quite strong layer of original varnish, wich after light linth cloth burnish still has it`s natural shine. 
Only surface dirt was removed.

BTW: I measured the thickneses of the bowl. If someone is interested, ribs at the thinest point (valey) is just 1mm thick. Where two ribs are mett it is 1,5mm. Unribed area, between the ribs and the top is 1,8-2mm. And the thickest part of the bowl, (carved part) is 3mm thick.

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## derbex

Thanks for posting these updates, I find them fascinating.

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## Marijan

It`s my pleasure Jeremy.

Didn`t expect varnish on the bowl to be on the thick side, but as it can be seen on the areas where varnish is damged it was quite thickly applied.

After nine hours, half of the bowl is cleaned. Whiskey helps.

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## Marijan

This is before and after. I must say that I was surprised with the amount of dirt that was cowering the original varnish. Now the wood is showing it`s natural aperance again. I am very satisfied with the result.

Although it took some time, cleaning this, was relatively easy since the varnish layer vas so well preserved (looking at the age of the instrument).
Top will need much more care, since there is probably almost nothing under the dirt layer. Dirt will act as a dye if the cleaning is not done with just damped, almost dry coton sticks. Some degre of stained look, or blotchiness will be present surely. Dings and dents will be enchased to some degree. 

But I have no intention to use any agressive methods like scraping, sanding etc. to give it "new" look. 
Cleaning only. Perhaps a thin layer of the egg white on top. It will look accordingly to it`s age.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS, 

Tavy

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## Marijan

Well, top is cleaned. I may do it even cleaner but not sure yet if I would prefere that. 
I am in contact with the guys from the musical collection of German national museum in Nuremberg. I will decide after consulting them too.
Ebony frets are still to be made. And a protective layer after the top is glued back.

Anyway, before and after.

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DavidKOS

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## Marijan

One more thing of structural importance needed to be solved before closing the box. Pins area crack. 
Probaly one of the bigest weekneses, in other aspects very carefuly thought out neapolitan mandolin construction, was it`s pin (lower) block. 
Bent, triangular, only 3mm thick piece of hard wood, didn`t offer enough support to the pins, and consequently the outer layer of the bowl as the block itself offten cracked along the four hole line. Thicker block, at least at the pins area, would surely prevent that.

I made oval "pin crack" patch, similar to the violin soudnpost patch. Oval shape is gouged out of the block, about 2 mm deep at the pin area and coresponding patch was chalk fitted and glued with hide glue.
After it dried, patch will be taken down to the level of the surounding block , but I will leave the central area of the patch 2 mm thicker, giving to the pins stronger support that it was originaly. Holes redriled and pins fitted.

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DavidKOS, 

derbex

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## Marijan

Finished patch.



I failed to find two same bridges from 1795-1798 Fabricatore mandolins on net. It loks like  each and one was made diferently for each mandolin. 
This are examples I managed to get. Not certain about originality though, First one have bottom plate  shaped to match TS pickguard, that may be original I guess.

1796 left one, 1796 midle one, 1797 third one. And there is just one left that I saw, that was posted  by Alex, and Eric in his 1793 restoration thread. That one is few years earlier.

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Jess L., 

vic-victor

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## Marijan

Ebony frets are ready and will be glued after the top is glued back. No. 2 and 4 are original ones, others remade. 0,4 mm thick, 1,2 mm wide.

Frets are not of uniform lenght. They create slight taper towards the soundhole, probably to follow widening of the strings from the neck to the bridge. First fret is 41mm last one at the sound hole is 46mm.

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## Marijan

Thankfully, one original peg survived. New ones came out quite nicely. Still need to do polishing.

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Jess L., 

vic-victor

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## Marijan

Nut was missing, new one made, fitted and glued. Will be finished later in the set up process. Small piece in the bottom of the nut grove was ebony so I decided to go that way.

Lost mastik near the nut was refilled. It will be leveled when dry.

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derbex

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## Marijan

In one piece after all. Pleasure for my eyes.

Tape glued, firs time for me, using hide glue. Neck block area was glued the day before. Somehow I found it easier to manipulate plate/bowl assembly while gluing, this way. 

During the years or perhaps centuries while one side of the mandolin was unglued, the bowl deformed sligtly. It was 2mm shorter than the top and consequently wider at the sides. I "extended" it using a piece of wood as a wedge betwen the neck block and pin block. By doing that the sides took the shape of the top again. Slight adjustments where needed only, to get things even. Wedge wood was cut  in two pieces through the sound hole and taken out. Frets reglued. Cleaned further.

Neck is flat across the frets and cleares the cant for 1,5mm, 1mm clearence at the neck/board. No sinking, arch is around 4mm high. WIll need around 6mm high bridge to get 1,7-2mm at #12 fret.

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Beanzy

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## Beanzy

That has been transformed into an exceptional instrument, congratulations on such a thoughtfully & tastefully done restoration.

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## Marijan

Thanks Eoin,
yes it will end up as a nice example of early mandolin. I was lucky to get quite  solid material to work on. Still some work to be done though. 
Restoration, conservation, making it playeable and appropriate as a museum piece at the same time, Those goals sometimes contradict to each other.

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## Marijan

While waiting for a material needed for pegs head restoration, I started to work on the bridge. Prepared the blank from a block of ebony. Cut it to oversized dimensions. Finished the thicknes and the lenght of the bridge. Left height oversized. Than chalk fitted the bridge for the best possible contact. Removing the chalk spots from the bottom of the bridge (I do it with small scraper), till the whole contact area is covered with chalk, than the fit is perfect. I find that more accurate and easier to do, than using the sandpaper. 

Shaping and establishing the height will be the next thing to do.

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vic-victor

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## Marijan

Some time ago Alex kindly posted the photos of the bridge of his Fabricatore. I decided to copy that one. 70mm long, 3,5mm thick, mine is lover at 4,5-5mm for the action slightly under 2mm at #12 fret, for now. 
Outer string spacing (in relation to the neck outer lines) is 41mm. 3,5mm between the strings. Around 8,5mm between the string pairs.

Pins has also bein made copying the survived pin out of the camel bone.

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## Marijan

SInce the TS on the back of the pegs head was warped and it cant be flatened properly in situ, I took it of. It will be soaked under the preasure in the salted near boiling water for a short period of time and than cooled down to retain the flat shape.

Taking TS off revealed the layers that was used by Fabricatore to prepare the surface for TS. Layers are hide glue - ribed paper - metal leafs - hide glue - TS. I say metal, not gold leafs since it seems that Fabricatore used copper leafs or high coper content alloy (look the secind photo in full size) and not high karat gold. I don`t know the history of copper leafs use, so I can`t tell for sure. Copper would explain the green oxide spots where TS was mising.

I guess that leafs where glued or somehow transfered to the ribed paper, which would also allow easier manipulation of the metal leafs when cutting and cluing. I have a stock of antique ribed paper (background on the last photo). so i will use that in order ro replicate the process as close as possible.

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## Marijan

Since the conservation is the first goal of this restoration/conservation work, and regarding the delicate nature of TS use, I decided to go with conservators advice to use similar material for repaire work and leave things in the maner that would alow repaires to be visible with naked eye. On the front of the peg head I made the repaires in situ using cast natural material to imitate the TS aperance. No original TS was lost.

Few shots of the process.

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Beanzy, 

Jess L., 

Tavy, 

Vangelis M., 

vic-victor

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## Eugene

Awesome.

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## Marijan

Back side of the head was redone similar as the front, but here, as pointed out few posts back, TS was remowed, since flatening in situ was imposible due the structural change of the wood underneath, caused by unproperly fited pegs. TS remowed, wood around the peg holes flatened, TS remade. Originaly, background for TS was actualy coper on ribed paper, so I did it that way.
There is a diference in darknes of the TS between removed, cleaned TS on the back of the head, and the middle TS stripes, since those where thicker as where the stripes on the neck too (around 0,8mm - remowed TS is 0,4mm thick). I didn`t attempt to imitate the oxidation under the TS also, so the repaired TS has lighter, more tranparent aperance, as it was when mandolin was originaly made. Still, i think that was the way to go from the conservation/resoration point of view.

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derbex, 

Tavy

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## Marijan

Small pleasures of finishing touches.

There was one piece of MOP that was original and it was left on. Two pieces where latter, bad fitted adition, Those where replaced with MOP that is quite a match to the original MOP.

Waiting for an ordered strings.

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## Tavy

That's looking quite lovely - can't wait to see/hear it with strings on!

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## Marijan

Unfortunately I don`t play. I have a friend who is a concertmaster of the symphonic orcestra and great guitar player. I am hoping to record few test notes of him playing my mandolin. 

I wonder one thing about this mandolin for some time. I read few articles avaliable on the net about the period mandolins and there is mentioned that usual numbe of the ribs varied from 15 - 27 + two large ribs between the top and rib cage. On this one there is 29 narow ribs, which is a number that is more usual on the later mandolins. Even on Fabricatore mandolins from those years (looking at the photos I was able to get) there is 25 to 27 ribs. Not that it matters much I guess, just curious.

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## Marijan



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## derbex

That's lovely, very well done.

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## Tavy

It has strings!  :Smile: 

Looks amazing, would love to hear it being played.

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## Beanzy

What a triumph.
Congratulations.

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## Marijan

Thank you. I will send a sound file when I record it.

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## btrott

Lovely work!

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## Marijan

As promised. Two recordings made in a quick one hour session on a portable digital recorder. Ignore the mistakes in interpretation please, the musician had just few minutes to try to adopt to a narrow Fabricatore neck and nut in comparation with modern Knorr mandolin that she  usually plays. Newer played early Neapolitan mandolin before. 
Recording is a streight download from a recorder, untempered in any way. Little dry.

In live, the sound is impresively large for a small body and can easily be copared with Knorr. Slightly on a bright side, but it is unplayed instrument with a new set of Lenzner - Fisoma "Bronze" low tension strings. Balance seems to be good, playability on the easy side. I was told that the set up is well executed. Instrument is fully playable.

Mozart Kanzonette No. 16, and Pietro Denis "Capriccio No.1

I hope that this MP3 links will work, if not I will upload it on youtube.

Regards
Marijan Radaljac

Copy_of_MANDOLINA_1.mp3

Copy_of_MANDOLINA_2.mp3

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DavidKOS

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## Jstring

It sounds wonderful....and looks amazing.

Thanks for bringing it back to life.

I hope it ends up with a player who will really appreciate it!

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## derbex

It sounds as good as looks -a triumph!

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## Tavy

Sounding great: very well done indeed!

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