# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Tremolo the terrible

## Jemac

Hey y'all,

After visiting Music Moose and grinding through Hannigan's first 7 lessons, I am felling pretty good...except for one thing. Tremolo. I am not sure how it is supposed to feel. After about an hour and a half I finally felt like I was getting it, but it still felt like my flat pick was merely brushing over the tops of the two strings, instead of dipping down to strike each G string independently in that down stroke, up stroke fashion. Is this how it is supposed to feel? When you are going that fast is it even possible to consciously make your flat pick hit each of the sides, or does that merely occur? Also, when using tremolo on two separate strings (G and A for example) how in the world does Hannigan go so fast? Is that a technique that only the blessed can play with?  I realize that I should not even be thinking about these techniques on my first day, I just like asking so that I can start getting a better idea of where I will be headed someday. Thanks a lot guys!

- John

----------


## John Ritchhart

An hour and a half? How about 100 hours and then call me. That's the dirty little secret that no instructor wants to tell you cause it's demotivating. You want to play like (fill in the blank)? Well they have 10-15 thousand hours of practice so get going and don't stop.

----------


## Jemac

Haha, I totally know what you mean. #I play guitar and know that it takes ALOT of time to get the real feel for it. #But my newbieness aside, how *does* it feel to all of you when you play a tremolo correctly? #I guess I am trying to see if I am practicing it corectly or not, due to the lack of an actual teacher in my town as fas as I know.

----------


## John Ritchhart

Yea it's daunting at first. You should realize that tremelo is actually in time with the music. Do up down up down, one on each beat then double it and then double it again. You'll be in 32nd note territory and that starts to sound like tremelo. Loose wrist and hand. Stay loose.

----------


## MandoSquirrel

As for how it should "feel", I think your phrase "brushing the strings" nails it, but it should Sound firmer than mere brushing, though if you try to hard to dig, you'll never get there. After 30 + years, I'm still trying to get it "right"!

----------


## mandolooter

tremolo comes from the heart...forget all that other stuff...feel it, its in you!

----------


## Jim Broyles

Jemac, for proper tremolo technique, you should indeed hit both strings with every up stroke and every down stroke. I have never seen anyone tremolo the G and A strings together without the D strings in there as well. Here's a speed building technique. First try to remove your picking hand from the mandolin in any way. Anchoring actually makes it harder. Get a metronome and set it to around 70 beats per minute. Play down/up/down/up (hereinafter known as DUDU)on an open string with each tick. Then play two strokes per tick. Then three. Then four. Do this until you can do four strokes per beat at will, then increase the metronome's rate. Then, play a double stop, which is a 2 note interval on two strings, for example: D string - 5th fret, plus A string - 2nd fret. Repeat the above regimen. There is no substitute for practice.

----------


## Jim Broyles

Oh, and, not too many guys play as fast as Anthony Hannigan after a day on the mandolin!

----------


## Jim Broyles

Good pick holding technique is important for executing smooth tremolo too. You don't want to have a death grip on it, but it shouldn't be so loose it falls out of your hand.

----------


## Jemac

Ok, awesome - Thanks so much for all the stellar advice. #I am going to go out today and get a metronome to try that technique. And don't worry, I am not as crazy to think that I will EVER be as fast as Anthony Hannigan, I was just amazed at his speed and was (am) really curious as to how that is even possible! #(I think I may have a new idol  ). #Keep the awesome advice coming, I am really enjoying this!

Also, if I may throw out another begginer question: What are some good songs for me to begin on? #If any of you could point me in the direction of some good websites with some easy beggining songs (along with some of the scales that I should know - not sure which ones to practice...there are so many!) I would * greatly* appreciate it!

Thanks guys!
- John

----------


## cooper4205

> Also, if I may throw out another begginer question: What are some good songs for me to begin on? If any of you could point me in the direction of some good websites with some easy beggining songs (along with some of the scales that I should know - not sure which ones to practice...there are so many!) I would * greatly* appreciate it!
> 
> Thanks guys!
> - John


I think these are some good beginner tunes that pretty easy to play. the link explains what scales are used in the tunes, what the parts of the tunes are (theme, turnaround, etc) and they also have a few simple variations. Also all the tunes are pretty common and are often played at jams.


As for tremelo, listen to alot of players who use alot of tremelo and really get the sound of it in your head. don't worry so much about making sure your playing the right number of notes per bar, but instead work on getting the sound and feel right. just dive in and don't look back, good luck!


also, here is a Mandolin study that will help you get familiar with the layout of the fretboard and where the notes and doublestops are

----------


## Enigmatic Recluse

> Ok, awesome - Thanks so much for all the stellar advice. #I am going to go out today and get a metronome to try that technique.


Online Metronome

Just in case you practice near your computer and don't want to spend money you don't have to spend...

----------


## jmcgann

> tremolo comes from the heart...forget all that other stuff...feel it, its in you!


(I did see the smiley) Actually, good advice for players already at the virtuoso level. Just in case you happen to be a mortal like me  it's good to know there are several ways to approach learning a smooth tremolo *(remember all that other stuff):*

1) David Grisman contends that Monroe's tremolo is (mostly) unmeasured- as in go for it, from the heart, rough and ready and let the chips fall where they may. Listen and imitate. Andy Statman used to obsess over whether Bill used 13 or 15 strokes. If you are gonna be a bear, be a grizzly!

2) Another way to do it is to keep track of how many strokes are going on per beat (measured). This doesn't mean you are a wimp, and I'll get my big brother to beat up anyone who says it is  

A pretty common tremolo is 6 notes per beat (double triplet), of course DUDUDU. Set the metronome slow, one click per beat, and practice until you can do it in time (not as easy as it sounds). You'd say "trip-o-let trip-o-let" in the space of the one beat. Try some novocaine first to loosen up.

To get real command of both time and tremolo, try setting the metronome to whatever tempo you can handle comfortable, play a line of 8th notes, then go into the tremolo (if 6 is too much at first, start with 4: DUDU "one e and a"). Then try 8 (DUDUDUDU "jeez this is too fast to put syllables to" or think chug-a chug-a chug-a chug-a like the Japanese Bullet Train or Shinkansen). Playing with a metronome in time at all at first is tough for many of us (it surely was for me).

Thr trick is getting OUT of the tremolo onto the next thing (line of eighth notes or even a rest) smoothly. It's easier to recover when you have the 'feel' under control. Yes, you can learn it, so if it's not "in you" yet, learn how to put it there.

----------


## Bob DeVellis

When my wife and I got a puppy last winter, we named him "Tremolo," figuring that was the only way I'd ever have a Tremolo anyone would admire.


.

----------


## johnwalser

It took me only 1 hour to learn tremolo.............of course, that was 1 hour every day for three years. Got to be the hardest musical thing I've ever needed to master. Changing my pic grip from many years of guitar playing to emulate Mike Compton's mandolin grip was the key for me. Letting the pic flick between thumb and the side of my index finger now seems as natural as breathing. I had told my wife that if I could develop a decent tremolo, I could die happy. 

All in all, I wished I had just re-named my dog.

John

----------


## jtauxe

This is an interesting discussion. I have a pretty good tremolo, but it never occurred to me to try to make it timed to a metronome, or approach it by successively halving notes. I've always just let 'er rip, like I think how the poster above said that Grisman said Monroe did it. I've always understood from my formal musical training (mostly classical violin, actually) that is a tremolo.

----------


## mandocrucian

> Thr trick is getting OUT of the tremolo onto the next thing (line of eighth notes or even a rest) smoothly.


This is probably the most important part of using tremolo. If you stumble (or crash) when you get off the "exit ramp", you end up spoiling what came before. In bluegrass, it's really hard to find anyone who can stop the tremolo on a dime better than Doyle Lawson. It's the way he can hit that first post-tremolo note with precision that is so great to listen to.

On another extreme, there's the "Buzz-saw tremolo" of Buzz Busby. Remember the famous schizo "acid cat" paintings in Time-Life's _"The Mind"_ book? (Same pics were also used in advertising by the pharmaceutical companies for antipsychotic drugs such as thorazine.) #That's a good visual representation of Buzz's tremolo! 

NH

----------


## dzen

Something I'm fighting too. Sometimes I can just sit down and really get it, then start thinking about it and lose it again. I've seen several suggestions on this site that the pick should be held so loosely that it almost falls out of your fingers, but the times when I feel like I can do it it seems like I have a firmer grip on the pick than that. Any accomplished tremolists use a little firmer grip?

----------


## Jim Broyles

> Something I'm fighting too. Sometimes I can just sit down and really get it, then start thinking about it and lose it again. I've seen several suggestions on this site that the pick should be held so loosely that it almost falls out of your fingers, but the times when I feel like I can do it it seems like I have a firmer grip on the pick than that. Any accomplished tremolists use a little firmer grip?


I cannot get a decent tremolo with a near-falling-out grip. Not saying it can't be done but I completely disagree with this approach. I use a fairly firm but not muscle-tensing grip for all mandolin playing.

----------


## cooper4205

I have to tighten my wrist up a little more to get a good tremolo as well. not stiff as a board or anything, but like JB described. I notice alot of players that do this, too

----------


## evanreilly

I still have the big black Franz metronome that I bought when John McGann told me to get serious and practice with one.
I use it extensively to play tremolo scales. John was right; the metronome never lies and always keeps perfect time!

----------


## Alex Orr

I found that it helps to have a more rounded pick. For example, I found that (for me at least) using a Wegen mando-pick makes playing tremolo easier than trying to play it with a Clayton.

As a beginner myself, I totally sympathize - I can play a fairly reliable tremolo on slower songs like Amazing Grace and Ashokan Farewell, but I am not yet able to toss it into the mix on an uptempo song. Furthermore, like Mr. McGann mentioned above, the real trick is often how to get to the notes that FOLLOW the tremolo. Even on the songs when I can play it solidly and in time with the music, there are often some less than clean transitions from a tremolo-ed note to a plain picked note, and the result is somewhat akin to a dancer executing a fancy move with grace only to slightly stumble in a simple intervening step - no matter how nice the tremolo, that awkward spin-out can sink the whole effect.

----------


## jmcgann

Let's start a tremolo recovery group

----------


## MASadict

> Let's start a tremolo recovery group


Hi, my name's Bill, and I can't tremelo. If I had a different name it might not be near as tramatic...

----------


## James P

"Hi Bill!"

My name is Jim and I play like a guitarist too. #
And not even a particularly good guitarist.

----------


## Jim Broyles

Hello. My name is Jim, I played guitar for 43 years before I picked up a mandolin, and I don't understand what all the confusion is about. Once I figured out what kind of pick to use for mandolin in general, I tried to tremolo, got it, and have spent the next two years putting it into practice and learning how to "get out " of it as described above. Sorry.

----------


## coolwood

I found that using a thin, flexable pick allowed me to develop my tremolo, and "get the feeling" of how it should be. As I became more proficeint, I used a stiffer, heavier pick. The thin pick allows you to hit the second string and not jump over it. Once you have it, the stiffer picks will actually give you more flexibility in your picking styles.

----------


## Jim Broyles

Whatever works coolwood, but I would say, and I'll defer to the real teachers here to correct me if I err, that there is no reason that a heavy pick would jump over the second string using proper pick attack technique. As a matter of fact, I'd imagine that a thin flexible pick would make it harder to get a good tremolo due to the fact that it has not recovered from flexing by the time it gets to the second of a course of strings. I personally would not recommend that method.

----------


## MASadict

Wow, suddenly doesn't feel like a support group...  
Guess I'll keep wearing out those wegen's with my tremolo practice.

----------


## jmcgann

> Hi, my name's Bill,





> There's only one _Bill_ in my band. Your name is now _Brad_.


-Bill Monroe to Bill _(I mean Brad for a few years as a Bluegrass Boy)_ Keith, early '60's

----------


## jmcgann

> IT'S TREMOLO!! One E, two O's!


Pronounced "Shar-day"

----------


## Jim Broyles



----------


## coolwood

JB: perhaps it's been a while since you were a beginner. Perhaps you still are.  In either case, the first few attempts at tremolo using a thin pick provides beneficial resuslts.  Please consult one of those "real" teachers.

----------


## jmcgann

> Please consult one of those "real" teachers.


I might be considered one. I'd never recommend thin picks to anyone for anything other than picking locks 

...but it's cool that it helped you!

----------


## Jim Broyles

cool, I'm glad it worked for you, but every pro or teacher that I have ever talked to about guitar or mandolin has specifically recommended against a thin pick for at least two reasons - volume and speed. It has been my experience that a thin pick makes one markedly slower in single string flatpicking and tremolo, and dramatically lower in volume. I knew a real teacher would back me up.

----------


## Bob DeVellis

Hmmm. Seems that a lot of classical players playing bowlbacks use very thin, pointy picks and some of them have fantastic tremolos and use the tremolo extensively in their playing. I think different styles have different traditions. Just an observation, not a recommendation.

----------


## jmcgann

> Seems that a lot of classical players playing bowlbacks use very thin, pointy picks and some of them have fantastic tremolos and use the tremolo extensively in their playing. I think different styles have different traditions. Just an observation, not a recommendation.


True and a good point. That range of tones is pretty specific to the genre; the same way that gypsy guitarists use 5mm picks that you won't see even the most macho bluegrass flatpickers use...

----------


## evanreilly

Uhhh..... John Mac:
I still have the monster (3.5mm?) Wegen you gave me a few years ago.
I use it on occasion and it is certainly an interesting pick to use.
I have pretty much settled on Wegens of the 1.4 - 1.6mm flavors now.
Not sure however if there is a tonal difference between the black and white ones, tho.
But, as Chris Thile pointed out, the use of the speed holes is a good technique to master.

----------


## jmcgann

Dr. Reilly:

I find the 3.5'ers great for the Django thing on git-tar but too heavy for mando...but I picked up a custom made Tortis (made for Djangobooks.com) that is about 2mm and great for the octave mando.

I'm still on the 1.5 500 series Tortex after all these years. Ah, great minds drink alike!

The black ones sound darker, n'est pas?

----------


## evanreilly

But the white ones are easier to find when you drop them in the grass!

----------


## JeffD

> tremolo comes from the heart...forget all that other stuff...feel it, its in you!


Become the tremolo

----------


## entau

Quote
On another extreme, there's the "Buzz-saw tremolo" of Buzz Busby. Remember the famous schizo "acid cat" paintings in Time-Life's "The Mind" book?

We had a green cat named acid back when I lived in a geodescic dome in a hippie commune in very northern NY.

----------


## mandocrucian

]

metphorical pictoral rendition of the Buzz Busby tremolo by artist-gone-schizophrenic Louis Wain (1860-1939)

----------


## entau

Oh no - that triggered a flashback -

 to quote richard millhouse nixon

"Pat the walls are melting"

----------


## earthsave

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> Hi, my name's Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I used to think, how can you just rename someone?... but then I realized, Brad is Bill Keith's middle name. Still controlling, but at least he kept part of him name.

----------


## Phil Goodson

Jemac,

One thing that helped me with tremolo was a comment I read here on the board somewhere that quoted someone (Compton maybe?) as saying that you should keep the pick ON the strings for the greatest possible amount of time while tremoloing.

Your question about the FEEL: I think of it as similar to surfing (believe it or not). The tip feels almost like it's sliding over the strings instead of plucking them, and reversing direction almost immediately upon reaching the opposite side of the course of strings. Sort of the way a surfer slips back down the wave just as (s)he's about to slip over the top.

[edit: Oh, and it helps to have the pick turned about 20 degrees so that it edges onto the string a little.]

Maybe a crazy description, but it sure clicked with me. Hope it helps you.

Phil

----------


## jmcgann

That is a good picture of it, Phil!

The farther you go away from the strings with the pick, the farther you have to come back. Best stay close to the fort!

----------


## JeffD

Truth is, I don't remember not being able to tremolo. Mandolin was my first stringed instrument however.

Those Red Bear Tortis picks - Heavy with speed bevel - they sure do tremolo nice.

----------


## Alex Orr

I just wanted to say that over the last couple of weeks, I think I've made some major gains in terms of my tremolo   It still kind of blows my mind that I can go from playing a few single notes into a solid tremolo now...well, most of the time anyway. Furthermore, tone is still an issue. But just a couple of months ago, it seemed like developing a reliable tremolo was going to be a loooong way off in my mando future. 

Now I feel I may be getting to the stage where I over do it, playing tremolo on every note, just because it feels so cool to do it.  

So, here's what I think really helped. In the Horne intermediate book, there is a break for "Free Little Bird" that uses a couple of double stop tremolos. Man, those just weren't working. But I kept at it, for a couple of weeks, and gradually it became much easier. Now....I'm STILL a little shaky on double stop tremolos, and quite frankly, I'm still not a terribly big fan of the way they sometimes sound, but here's what was really important about this whole process: Althoguh my double stop tremolo is still sort've weak, the whole process of trying to learn it made playing single string tremolo MUCH easier. 

So, if you're really struggling with single string tremolo, then try to start learning some double stop tremolo licks. Just work on it for a while, and maybe you'll find like I did that an indirect result of such practice is that you get very confortable playing single string tremolo.

Good luck

----------


## Steve G

Quote: Become the tremolo.

That's pretty much it, I have found. I tried EVERYTHING. It took years of analytical study before I learned to not be too analytical about tremolo because I've seen so many players do it different ways, i.e. Mike Seeger turns the key but Norman Blake swings the hammer if you get my drift. It really is a heart thing. But the metronome was the biggest and most important tool for practice and eventually I got it so it's natural. I also went through just about every pick known to mankind before I finally settled on the one that worked. It drove me nuts and took three years of persistence, trial, and error. Lots of error. You've got to want to dance the waltz.

----------


## sachmo

IMHO, Grisman has the best tremelo around. How does he approach it? Guys like that just "do" it, I don't think they think about it anymore since they've spent sooooo much time in the early part of their lives playing.

I've read early in this thread that your wrist tightens up slightly and you use more of a elbow motion. Thats happening to me, my tremelo is comming along but after a while the tennis elbow starts to move in and I don't play tennis whatsoever!!!!

What is the percentage of wrist to elbow movement to do it correctly? and how can I loosen my wrist?

Thanks

----------


## Phil Goodson

> ....
> I've read early in this thread that your wrist tightens up slightly and you use more of a elbow motion.....
> 
> What is the percentage of wrist to elbow movement to do it correctly? and how can I loosen my wrist?


=========================================
Whether it's correct or not ....
For single string tremolo, I use 99.9% wrist most of the time.

When the tremolo increases to 2 or 3 strings, the elbow gets more involved, but wrist is ALWAYS 80+% for me. Seems to work very well and naturally.
YMMV

Happy New Year.
Phil

----------


## Alex Fields

I have a pretty good tremolo and I never really had any difficult with it. I don't really care for the sound of tremolo except to replace bowed whole notes in classical violin music, so I never bothered with it much until I was already good enough that I had solid right hand technique, and it came pretty naturally to me--I don't see it as any different than just picking really fast, except that your left hand notes aren't changing. So I just did the same thing as I normally do with right hand, except faster, and it worked fine...

I do NOT use picks with rounded edges. All of my picks are in the shape of the Wegen TF. I like them around 1.0mm, but I do use light gauge strings, when I play on medium/medium-heavy I like a pick closer to 1.2mm. I find that both pointier tips and thinner picks give me more speed and control. I can't play intricate classical stuff with a Dawg-shaped pick or anything remotely resembling that, it is just messy as heck if I try at anything more than a snail's pace. I also think rounded edges sound bad on light gauge strings. And I like the tone of my picks just as well as the rounded ones in any situation, better for classical music. So I respectfully disagree with the people who recommend a thick rounded pick, although I actually think it's mostly a matter of personal preference and style, and the type of music you're playing, not a matter of objective right or wrong.

I am a proponent of the "so loose you're almost dropping your pick" approach. I do use a very slightly tighter grip when I play loudly or very, very quickly, but it is still pretty darn loose. I play tremolo just fine that way. I do tighten up considerably more if I'm playing hard chords or chopping, but then again I almost never chop--Bach, Debussy, and Prokofiev were apparently unaware of the technique (a shame, really), and I much prefer crosspicking harmonies or playing ringing, open-stringy, old-timey chords when accompanying folk music. That said I wouldn't be surprised if some of us who describe our approaches to how tightly we hold the pick in much different terms don't actually differ all that greatly in practice.




> For single string tremolo, I use 99.9% wrist most of the time.


Me too. If I didn't pick up the fiddle occasionally I think my elbow would be frozen stiff from disuse (note: that's a slightly exaggeration  ).

----------


## Alex Orr

Man, I'm in the minority. I use almost all elbow on trem. I started doing this because that's what Horne advised when teaching tremolo in his two books and the accompanying DVD. That being said, I can see the utility behind playing from the wrist - if you're picking from there normally, then there is less of an adjustment made mid-pickin'. That being said, it just feels easier from my elbow.

----------


## Mr. Loar

At bit OT, but I used to play in a band with Anthony's Father Jim. Last Sunday I teamed up with him again after thirty years and it was great. He gave me a DVD of Anthony's to watch. I remember Anthony when he was knee high to a grasshopper. His Father is an excellent musician too.

----------


## Toan Deph

Should the tremolo movement come from twisting the wrist or a vertical movement from the elbow.

----------


## Jim Broyles

You should use the same motion you would use if you were strumming really fast on one or two strings. Do you twist your wrist when you strum? Probably not. There is nothing mystical and hidden about tremolo, it is just a technique for playing mandolin. If there is one thing I've learned in 48 years of playing fretted instruments  it is that the pros do NOT deliberately do things the hard way. If something seems to require an unnatural motion or a lot of jumping around, there's probably an easier way to do it. The thing to work on in tremolo is tempo and  coming in and out smoothly. There is a definite rhythmic pattern to tremolo, it isn't just seeing how fast you can play up and down on a note or double stop.

----------


## Ivan Kelsall

Personally, i subscribe to Adam Steffey's way of doing it - _slowly_ !. I've found that very often (at least to my ears), that a fast tremolo can sound a mite 'frantic'. A.S. demonstrates his tremolo approach very well on his tuition DVD & it works fine. I find that it gives a more measured feel with it musically,& that you have a bit more time to get the 'feel' of the pick going over the strings. Ultimately, it's whatever sounds right & works for the individual,but whichever method / style you latch onto,it still requires practice & a degree of self-belief that you CAN do it,
                                                                                                                     Ivan :Cool:

----------


## brianf

When I first learned to play, self-taught, I had a great tremolo, and played melodies, fast or slow.  Then, I started to play in outdoor jams, day after day for years.  The need to be heard against the other instruments caused me to change my grip, and to pick hard.  Now, I can't play tremolo. :Grin:

----------


## Pete Hicks

Good tremolo is hard.  In the Bickford Mandolin Method, the old classical mandolin course, tremolo is introduced only after the player has developed a good sense of rhythm. Try practicing both triplet and four note patterns.  If you study Bill Monroe, the neatest thing is when and how he Stops the tremolo.

----------


## OldSausage

> When I first learned to play, self-taught, I had a great tremolo, and played melodies, fast or slow.  Then, I started to play in outdoor jams, day after day for years.  The need to be heard against the other instruments caused me to change my grip, and to pick hard.  Now, I can't play tremolo.


Jamming can really mess up your technique if you're not careful.

----------


## homermando

My tremolo hero is Andy Statman. Heck he is just my music hero period. When he plays I don`t think "Wow that`s great mandolin music", I just think "That`s great music"! Transcendence.

----------


## fishtownmike

Who needs tremolo? It's so over rated. So what you can't play the God father theme. I'm just saying this because I suck at it. :Smile:

----------


## Phil Goodson

My thinking is that people overthink tremolo too much.
When you play a relatively fast tune like Blackberry Blossom or anything like that, you're really already playing tremolo with your right hand for as long as you're on one string.

Try playing one of these tunes and in the middle, just stop the left hand and keep doing what you're doing with the right hand on that string.  Voila!  Tremolo!!

----------


## JeffD

> Who needs tremolo? It's so over rated. So what you can't play the God father theme. I'm just saying this because I suck at it.


And I give up broccoli for Lent. Year round I would cross the street to avoid broccoli, but that has nothing to do with it.   :Laughing:

----------


## Dan Margolis

I read somewhere that guitarist Frank Vignola practiced 15 minutes a day for a year in order to perfect his super fast, accurate strumming (hummingbird's wings).  I assume that when he did this he was already a great player.  Dan

----------

