# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Sustainable Ebony

## Mike Black

This is a great video about the facts about Ebony and how we all as builders, as well as musicians, need to view it.  





More info here:

http://www.taylorguitars.com/about/s...m_medium=email

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## George R. Lane

Mike,
Thanks for the video. It is interesting when I had my Vintage A made in 2008, I chose ebony with color for my fingerboard and headstock overlay. Bruce Weber and I talked quite abit about the streaking in the wood and how beautiful it was. I would like to think I was a visionary in using this so called lower grade of wood but, in reality I just thought is was wonderful to look at. Hopefully more people will appreciate it like I did.

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## Joe Mendel

I like ebony with some color variation, too. Not saying the really black stuff isn't pretty, but I like to see the patterns in the grain more. Good on Bob.

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## Dave Cohen

I've been using 2nd grade W/ African ebony for as far back as I can remember.  I even ask suppliers for the stuff with lots of gray and/or tan streaks in it.  The only problem is that it is hard to keep the irregularities featured for two reasons.  One is that most finishes tend to darken the irregularities.  The other is that in fretboards, the dirt and oils from fingers tend to eventually make the entire playing surface uniformly black anyway.  As far as hardness and durability, the 2nd grade ebony is fine.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

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## Fretbear

Good on him, and good that someone with a global conscience like he has is in the position to make the call.

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## Tavy

Good to see someone is trying to tackle this!  Personally I wish more figured ebony was available - I assume that structurally it's all the same - and some of the coloured stuff would make a wonderful tonewood.

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## John Flynn

Personally, I like the look of the multi-colored ebony, but for those that want black it would seem to me there would be a way to take B-grad ebony and stain it black. It might have to be some new type of stain that would not bleed, but it would seem possible.

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## BradKlein

I find this video very thought-provoking -- even moving.

Bob Taylor is trying to drive marketplace acceptance of the product he sells - and of course that affects the bottom line of his wood business.  But his ecological arguments seem sound to me, and the problems he describes are very real.  I can't imagine the challenges of running an Africa-based timber business, and doing it legally, let alone ethically. But I like the marketing efforts that I see in this video.

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## Goodin

> Personally, I like the look of the multi-colored ebony, but for those that want black it would seem to me there would be a way to take B-grad ebony and stain it black. It might have to be some new type of stain that would not bleed, but it would seem possible.



Stew Mac makes a black fingerboard stain.  http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishin...xst=3&xsr=2540

I use 2nd grade ebony fingerboards from LMI and once a bit of fretboard oil is applied the gray streaks are barely noticeable.

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## Ed Goist

Great video!
Also, as has been mentioned, it is easy and inexpensive to stain any irregularities in the Ebony.
Moreover, some instruments are striking with the irregular boards! My daughter's double bass has brown spots on the Ebony board (she calls them _"freckles"_). In combination with the bass' classic 'violin' stain, the speckled board makes for a truly striking instrument. She was immediately attracted to the aesthetic of the _"freckled"_ board.

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## foldedpath

I have a custom Holst semihollow archtop guitar with quite a bit of brown streaking in the fingerboard, pickguard, and tailpiece. It's especially dramatic in the pickguard. That guitar was built over 8 years ago, so luthiers selling high-end instruments have been pushing the idea on at least aesthetic grounds, for some time. I asked Steve if he did this often, and he said only certain customers would go for it, but maybe efforts like Bob Taylor's will be changing that.

Personally, I'm much more interested in the grain pattern than the color anyway. There's a lot of ebony being used for fingerboards where you can see open grain and pores, instead of that almost glass-smooth tight surface in the best ebony fingerboards.

One thing I noticed in the Taylor video though, was no mention of the word "sustainable." So, this is basically increasing efficiency of the harvest until it's all gone? Then what? I guess this is just one of those situations like Brazilian rosewood where the trees grow too slowly to farrm.

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## JMUSIC

Remember , Bob is first and foremost a sales person....

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## Tom Wright

Bravo Taylor for a non-commercial decision, although it may prove to be so in time if the company stays in good relations with suppliers and regulators and gains a bit of competitive advantage.

A huge demand on block ebony of highest quality is that for clarinets and oboes. Most professionals will invoke superior tone as a defense for exhausting the supply. A clarinet would need a thick block that can be bored, and must have few and preferably zero grain imperfections to avoid splitting. And unlike a guitar fingerboard or bridge saddle, these instruments do not last, they eventually split, with 10 yrs being typical for a professional oboe before cracks develop to make it unplayable..

Some players are trying to promote reformed ebony that uses scraps bound together after pulverizing. Buffet Crampon's Greenline clarinet material is 95% ebony powder and 5% carbon fiber. These instruments should last longer, but most top players stick to solid wood. Luthiers should investigate if a Greenline product could be used for fingerboards, at least, that don't need high mechanical strength. Buffet also uses Mpingo for clarinets, which might be good as bridge material or cello and bass fingerboards, which need large blocks of strong ebony. A version of Greenline with more carbon fiber component could probably be very strong and usable for bowed-instrument fingerboards.

I do not mourn the absence of tortoise shell, and I would be ok with whatever wood was sustainable. I use carbon-fiber bows in my "day" job. What matters most is the music and the playing.

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## nobullmando74

I remember in the mid 90s working for a Taylor dealer that we would get some models in with streaks in the fretboard. The reaction was either: Oh thats cool, unique, etc. or Is that a defect?, etc. Personally it didn't bother me but i can remember calling my rep because of a customer complaint about it and him telling me to use a large sharpie maker to stain it all black. I didn't do it but I'm sure it wouldn't be much trouble to stain a board black.

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## robert.najlis

good for him!  Thanks for sharing the video.

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## foldedpath

> A huge demand on block ebony of highest quality is that for clarinets and oboes. Most professionals will invoke superior tone as a defense for exhausting the supply. A clarinet would need a thick block that can be bored, and must have few and preferably zero grain imperfections to avoid splitting. And unlike a guitar fingerboard or bridge saddle, these instruments do not last, they eventually split, with 10 yrs being typical for a professional oboe before cracks develop to make it unplayable..


Are you sure it's ebony (_Diospyros_ sp.) used for clarinets, and not African blackwood (_Dalbergia melanoxylon_)? Blackwood is sometimes called grenadilla.

I thought clarinets were primarily blackwood, which is a different species than the ebony used in fingerboards, and has a different conservation status. It's a smaller tree, and there are a few efforts being made in tree farming, including one outfit apparently having some success farming it in Florida. 

I got interested in blackwood while researching a purchase of an "Irish" simple system (non-keyed) flute recently. Apparently it's used instead of ebony/_Diospyros_ because it's more moisture-resistant, less brittle and easier to turn. Like ebony, it can also include brown streaks and a few trad flute makers are starting to use that variety. 

Anyway, if this is a different species and harvested differently, then we can't blame the clarinet players for adding to the fretboard supply problem. We can still blame the piano makers, though.
 :Smile:

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## pickinNgrinnin

Very interesting video. Taylor is taking a very sensible approach to the dwindling supply of natural resources. Madagascar Rosewood is also in danger of being harvested out of existence.

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## Joe Mendel

I was at Hibdon Hardwoods a couple of weeks ago and the owner told me they gave up on ebony and are selling African blackwood for fingerboards. He said it's much easier to get good wood from a log of African blackwood than ebony, and that it is more stable. I've used some for headstock veneers and it looks great, I'll be giving it a try for fingerboards soon, I'm sure.

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## Glassweb

I didn't hear any talk at all of planting/growing new ebony. Is this something that is being done... can be done? Perhaps there's just no longer enough environment to do that... anybody know what's going on with ebony cultivation?

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## Michael Lewis

As Foldedpath mentioned, African blackwood is a dalbergia family member like Brazilian rosewood, and makes outstanding fingerboards.

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## Appalachia

> I didn't hear any talk at all of planting/growing new ebony. Is this something that is being done... can be done? Perhaps there's just no longer enough environment to do that... anybody know what's going on with ebony cultivation?


That was my thought throughout the whole video. This is an awesome step forward, but I don't think it's a good sign that re-cultivation wasn't even mentioned. This will slow the rate that ebony disappears, but unless new trees are grown, or this gets us below the natural growth (which I doubt), this isn't technically sustainable.

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## delsbrother

What happened to the B grade trees under the old system? Did they just burn them?

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## Fretbear

It's hard to believe that even those B grade trees didn't have enough small sections of black wood in them to make guitar and mandolin bridges out of. A mandolin bridge and saddle is not alot of wood. Maybe it was not the business of the wholesalers previously to worry about such things and now with Bob's initiative, those B logs can now be graded into smaller blanks to fashion parts from.

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## Jim Rowland

Not much to argue with Mr. Taylor about here,even though,reduced to its essence, he is saying: I've cornered the market on legal Ebony,so if you want some,you'll have to take what I offer you. I have no problem with that,but I'm sure some will continue to demand the very black kind which will logically aggrandize in price over time while acceptable substitutes will multiply. All in all,a good thing,I think.
Jim

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## foldedpath

> Not much to argue with Mr. Taylor about here,even though,reduced to its essence, he is saying: I've cornered the market on legal Ebony,so if you want some,you'll have to take what I offer you. I have no problem with that,but I'm sure some will continue to demand the very black kind which will logically aggrandize in price over time while acceptable substitutes will multiply. All in all,a good thing,I think.
> Jim


I'm not sure it's such a good thing. There is no discussion about sustainability or alternatives in the video, so what Bob Taylor is talking about is essentially duplicating the trajectory of Brazilian Rosewood. We're gonna maximize exploitation until it's all gone.

Moreover, the extraction process is being discussed as if there is no other impact on the forest. These are _entire ecosystems_ affected when roads are cut into the forest for access to the trees. Other trees are cut to create draglines and paths; it's not just the impact on the valuable species. Any new road immediately creates incentives for further forest clearing for agriculture. I've seen this for myself in Brazil, Venezuela, and other Central and South American countries, years ago when I was working down there. 

What steps are being taken by Taylor Guitars to promote alternative woods for fingerboards? Without a mitigating effort like that, I don't see that more efficient use of the resource is all that admirable. It's just a delaying tactic until the last trees are gone. Since Taylor has a near monopoly on supply, they'll be in a position to profit from the inevitable steep rise in price when the best true-black Ebony achieves Brazilian rosewood status. It may be good business tactics, but I'm just not feeling the warm eco-fuzzy vibe that Bob Taylor is trying to project in that video.

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## Bill Snyder

You read Jim's post entirely differently than I did. I read his post as if he is agreeing with you EXCEPT he thinks Taylor having the ebony locked up will cause others to find alternates sooner rather than later, hence him thinking it will be a good thing in the long run.
Of course that is just my interpretation of what he wrote and it could be wrong.

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## Jim Nollman

I'm curious about something. How many of the instruments being discussed here as using a lower grade of ebony, are actually manufactured using a different species of ebony renowned for its streaking. This is called Macassar, as opposed to the uniformly black, Gabon. There's nothing "lower grade" about Macassar.

We musicians need more lessons, like this video, in sustainable aesthetics. We need to recognize that its actually an unsustainable, tradition that makes it seem "less desirable" to own an instrument with a fingerboard made with any of hundreds of other wood species just as capable as ebony. I was recently in Mexico visiting a forest devastated by hurricane damage. Thousands and thousands of huge trees uprooted, many with dark or even black wood. I asked if anyone was doing salvage to make it available to instrument makers or cabinet makers in the USA or Europe. No one stepped forward to purchase it, and the local authorities really wanted the mess cleaned up. I watched the trees being cut up for local firewood or just burned in huge piles. I know a very few of those species by their locals name, Ziricote, Guayaba, Morado. What a world.

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## foldedpath

> You read Jim's post entirely differently than I did. I read his post as if he is agreeing with you EXCEPT he thinks Taylor having the ebony locked up will cause others to find alternates sooner rather than later, hence him thinking it will be a good thing in the long run.
> Of course that is just my interpretation of what he wrote and it could be wrong.


I missed that interpretation, so thanks for pointing it out. Although, I'm still not sure I agree with the premise. 

Think about how this would have played out in the last stages of harvesting Brazilian rosewood, roughly a hundred years ago, if someone like Taylor had corralled the supply but was still harvesting. As long as _any_ Braz rosewood was available legally at a reasonable price, would that have actually done anything to slow demand, or force people into alternatives? 

The shift to alternatives like "Indian" rosewood, and to Cocobolo and other exotic hardwoods for instrument bodies only happened after the Braz supplies were exhausted.

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## HoGo

> I'm not sure it's such a good thing. There is no discussion about sustainability or alternatives in the video, so what Bob Taylor is talking about is essentially duplicating the trajectory of Brazilian Rosewood. We're gonna maximize exploitation until it's all gone.
> 
> Moreover, the extraction process is being discussed as if there is no other impact on the forest. These are _entire ecosystems_ affected when roads are cut into the forest for access to the trees. Other trees are cut to create draglines and paths; it's not just the impact on the valuable species. Any new road immediately creates incentives for further forest clearing for agriculture. I've seen this for myself in Brazil, Venezuela, and other Central and South American countries, years ago when I was working down there. 
> 
> What steps are being taken by Taylor Guitars to promote alternative woods for fingerboards? Without a mitigating effort like that, I don't see that more efficient use of the resource is all that admirable. It's just a delaying tactic until the last trees are gone. Since Taylor has a near monopoly on supply, they'll be in a position to profit from the inevitable steep rise in price when the best true-black Ebony achieves Brazilian rosewood status. It may be good business tactics, but I'm just not feeling the warm eco-fuzzy vibe that Bob Taylor is trying to project in that video.


Completely agree. The video has nothing to do with real sustainable harvesting. I remember reading that even low knotty grades larger stumps of BR were being harvested when the supply of nice old trees was all but gone. How long did that supply last? (I'm still wondering where all that beautiful "old stock" BR that almost every top builder is using on their expensive models has been hiding, It seems to me that 10 years ago  there were much less br guitars offered than now) This ebony thing is exactly on the same track.
I thought I will hear that they are planting two new ebony trees in place of the old one or something similar, that would eventually lead to sustainable supply assuming there is still enough of the forest available. Just like hardwood forests here in europe. We log and export wood and area of forests is constant (actually grows somewhat as some unused agricultural areas were re-forested)

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## Stephen Perry

I don't believe current business training, current cultural norms, or the general programming of humans generate automatic altruism.  Relatively few people are more concerned with the sustainability of their actions than relatively short term profit.  Economic realities tend to punish those who do.  That really applies to most aspects of an affluent lifestyle, as those who can afford guitars and mandolins tend to be living.

Certainly I don't have a sustainable lifestyle.  I can't think of anyone I know who does.  But things are improving.

In my own making, I use mostly sustainable materials.  Maple.  Spruce.  Hide glue. But also some ebony.  I can use other things. But the materials I tend to use are sourced in a complex and expensive manner because the market likes that.  I'd rather use maple from my yard, spruce from the mountains, a hard US wood for the fingerboard, etc.  The market devalues that approach.

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## BradKlein

> I thought I will hear that they are planting two new ebony trees in place of the old one or something similar, that would eventually lead to sustainable supply assuming there is still enough of the forest available. Just like hardwood forests here in europe. We log and export wood and area of forests is constant (actually grows somewhat as some unused agricultural areas were re-forested)


I am no expert in tropical forestry, but I don't thing that the logging practices that are used in Europe and North America can be applied to tropical forests.  Some economically important trees just can't be 'farmed' as of now.  I don't know exactly how this applies to ebony and rosewood species.  

And of course, poverty and deeply entrenched political corruption are enormous factors in many of the countries in the tropics. It's hard to imagine the scale of the challenges if you haven't been on the ground there.

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## Elliot Luber

Bob's always been a class act. My biggest problem with Taylor is no mandolins.  :Smile:

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## Mike Black

If you noticed in the original post there is a link at the bottom to the Taylor website with more information.  It talks there more about sustainability and how they have also partnered up with the environmental organization *GreenWood Global*.  That's who's helping with the actual sustainability.  

Bob's video is more about how they are going to start with practical "less waste" tree cutting method instead of the wastful cutting that has been going on to get a specific "black" tree.    I can see that the pure black ebony could raise, but that the dwendling amount of ebony that there doesn't have to be destroyed (like it is) because it isn't pure black.

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## DougC

Oh does this topic open a lot of issues for me.
  I think Bob Taylor is brave, thoughtful and practical in his decisions. I'm glad he is managing and owning the Ebony production in Cameroon. 
One issue that bugs me is in seeing the consequence of making the sheer volume of guitars being produced per day. I'd like to know how many instruments with ebony fret boards are made collectively by Martin, Guild, Taylor, Collings, Gibson, Fender and Larrivee. 

Another issue is something Bob said. Something to the effect of "we live in a different world and if you only knew how the rest of the world lives...".

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## foldedpath

> If you noticed in the original post there is a link at the bottom to the Taylor website with more information.  It talks there more about sustainability and how they have also partnered up with the environmental organization *GreenWood Global*.  That's who's helping with the actual sustainability.


I followed those links, and this still seems like disingenuous marketing to me. On the Taylor page that's titled "Sustainability", the GreenWood Global outfit is mentioned, but Greenwood Global is only active in the Americas according to their web site. They have no projects in Africa: 

http://www.greenwoodglobal.org/

Bob Taylor began that video on ebony by saying this: 

_"It's going to take a lot of intervention from us, as people around the world, to make sure that we continue to have these woods, and that for generations, they continue to be there."_

That's a clear implication that he's about to talk about sustainable ebony. But nowhere in the video, or on the Taylor web site, or on the Greenwood web site, is anyone talking about reforesting and long-term conservation of ebony. What he's actually talking about is delaying the inevitable as long as possible, until it's all gone just like Brazilian Rosewood. 

If that's the current situation and there's nothing else that can be done  -- and I suspect that's the case, given the slow growth rate, disappearing habitat, and political/economic status of African countries -- then at least be honest about it. Don't promote it by dropping broad hints that it's an eco-friendly, sustainable approach. That's dishonest.

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## Dobe

Interesting Doug, I had the same thoughts on both of your points. One thing that immediately jumped out at the beginning of the video for me was   :     " you can almost count the number of Spruce trees that are left..."  "....you can almost count when there might not be any left that are large"

Color me sceptical.  Surely there are lots of large Spruce in this region ?  :

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## Bernie Daniel

> I'm not sure it's such a good thing. There is no discussion about sustainability or alternatives in the video, so what Bob Taylor is talking about is essentially duplicating the trajectory of Brazilian Rosewood. We're gonna maximize exploitation until it's all gone.
> 
> Moreover, the extraction process is being discussed as if there is no other impact on the forest. These are _entire ecosystems_ affected when roads are cut into the forest for access to the trees. Other trees are cut to create draglines and paths; it's not just the impact on the valuable species. Any new road immediately creates incentives for further forest clearing for agriculture. I've seen this for myself in Brazil, Venezuela, and other Central and South American countries, years ago when I was working down there. 
> 
> What steps are being taken by Taylor Guitars to promote alternative woods for fingerboards? Without a mitigating effort like that, I don't see that more efficient use of the resource is all that admirable. It's just a delaying tactic until the last trees are gone. Since Taylor has a near monopoly on supply, they'll be in a position to profit from the inevitable steep rise in price when the best true-black Ebony achieves Brazilian rosewood status. It may be good business tactics, but I'm just not feeling the warm eco-fuzzy vibe that Bob Taylor is trying to project in that video.


I think your points are good.  

I thought the video by Bob Taylor was interesting and I thought he did a great thing by just saying let's start using less grades of the wood.  But after that it was pretty much a self-serving effort and he stands to profit from his efforts -- no problem with that at all but its true.  

I hope he is plowing some of his profits back into trying to find ways to encourage that government to see the value of sustaining the resource for future generations.  Conservation, controlled harvesting, and a replanting programs are not necessarily a high priority in developing countries -- farming produces a much greater and immediate benefit.  Likewise conservation requires a bold and determined political resolve as it is a long term proposition -- these trees grow slowly.

It is sad to see these sources of wood under such stress. Personally, I think every species should be preserved. Each species has a unique DNA that may code for valuable things (natural products, medicines etc.) that we'll never find once they are gone - that argument does not ring with everyone however.   

It is increasingly obvious to all that the world has too many human beings and in the end I don't see a happy result not only for species of trees but all non-human wild species plant and animal.

Obviously for these developing countries the priority is food and jobs and who can blame them?  We in North American cut down over 90% of our old growth forest before anyone with the power to act on it listened seriously to the calls for conservation.  It took even more time before any real efforts were made.  These countries are no different or more "irresponsible" than we were here

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## Jim Nollman

If it's true that ebony doesn't lend itself to plantation growing, you would think that such a critical fact would be accentuated in the video.  Who's to say that Taylor has not made a strategic  decision to avoid the development of plantation replenishment? Unless that happens, can  we all agree that owning a monopoly on ebony gives the company a strategic advantage over other top tier guitar companies?  Until we are given some explanation about the viability of ebony plantations, the above interpretation seems as valid as anything else I've read here. Indeed, businesses are never altruistic. 

Actually, the argument against business altruism suggests that a company only acts unsustainably because its customers demand it. But if so, isn't it critical that businesses participate, at some meaningful level, in teaching customers that the next generation of guitars need to be constructed with something besides an endangered wood species? Or do we all throw up our hands and conclude that customers can't be taught such a thing?  Mr Taylor would have made me feel a lot better about the future ebony supply, if he had told me that his company was also making a parallel effort to wean his customer base from ebony fingerboards.  

We're all potential stringed instrument customers. How many of you reading this thread, would buy a mandolin with an ebony fretboard, if you also knew all the facts about the status of ebony as an endangered species? Now let me ask something slightly different. How many of you would buy that same mandolin, after watching the Taylor video? I suspect that no where near as many would desist, because the Taylor video makes it sound like the company is doing a good thing. I just don't see the good thing so clearly as others have expressed here.

As a side note, I also recall that Brazilian rosewood seemed to have completely disappeared from musical instruments about ten years ago. Now its back. Where did the new supply come from?

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## Rob Grant

Ebony (Diospyros) is a rather slow growing tree that seems to produce the best "black" wood when exposed to various stressful conditions like drought or insect attack. This is at least true with the three or four species that are found here in tropical north Queensland. I'd imagine that this would also be true with the species that Taylor talks about. We have available here in Queensland ebonies equivalent to those found in Africa, but not in sustainable or commercially viable quantities. The flitches I get for building my mandolins are usually obtained from storm damaged trees or trees which have died from fire, disease or insect attack.

I've grown several species of ebony from seed, and in my experience I don't believe the trees that give you a good black wood can be grown in a controlled, farm situation.

Here are a few photos of our local ebonies (used for sides on a mandola I built over ten years ago, a mature "dry" country tree, and a rainforest seedling I planted several years ago on my block...

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## Miss Lonelyhearts

Sorry, but Bob Taylor's video gave me visions of post-apocalyptic, A-Boy-and-His-Dog scenarios, people living on a scorched Earth devoid of trees, happy to have an old coffee can to beat on or a bone whistle. The days of demanding a perfect ebony fingerboard to optimize durability, appearance, and tone will seem like the apex of short-sightedness and vanity then....
 :Frown:

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## peter.coombe

I think there is a bit of mis-information in the video as well as mis-information in some of the posts.  Firstly, Ebony is not endangered.  Not one single species of Ebony is listed on CITES, so although it may be rare, it is not endangered.  It certainly is true that commercial quantities of Ebony are no longer present in many countries that used to be sources of Ebony, so it has been over exploited, but it has not been over exploited to the extent Brazilian Rosewood has.  Brazilian Rosewood is critically endangered - i.e. it is on the verge of extinction.  The only country I know that has a sustainable source of Ebony (and rosewood) is India.  The Indian government strictly controls the harvesting of Indian Ebony and Rosewood, and although the system is not perfect, it is about the best that exists at present.  Some Indian Ebony and Rosewood is FSC certified, so it comes with a guarantee of sustainability.  _Diospyros melanoxylon_ is used for other purposes other than wood in India, so there is likely to be a (limited) continuing supply of that species effectively forever.  Unfortunately the USA has made importation of Indian Ebony and Rosewood >6mm thick illegal, but the reason it is illegal is due to a paperwork dispute with India.  Somewhat ironic when the only sustainable source becomes illegal!




> As a side note, I also recall that Brazilian rosewood seemed to have completely disappeared from musical instruments about ten years ago. Now its back. Where did the new supply come from?


Brazilian Rosewood (_Dalbergia nigra_) certainly has become more common recently.  Most of the source of supply is from old stumps that were cut before 1992 when it was CITES listed.  The wood is stunningly beautiful, but most of it is flat sawn and unstable, so buyer beware.  Other sources are from old stashes purchased before 1992.  For example, I have some that was imported into Australia in the early 1980s, so although not CITES documented it is still legal if it remains in Australia.

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## rgray

So, 90% of the ebony to be available will be streaked.  Where is the 10% of black ebony going - the very highest end instruments?  If so, will those instrument prices increase even more simply for having the best ebony even though the price from the woodcutter is the same whether streaked or black?

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## foldedpath

> I think there is a bit of mis-information in the video as well as mis-information in some of the posts.  Firstly, Ebony is not endangered.  Not one single species of Ebony is listed on CITES, so although it may be rare, it is not endangered.


CITES status isn't the only thing that matters when discussing these things, outside the narrow scope of what can be legally used. 

If we're talking about Diospyros crassiflora (West African ebony), then it's listed as "endangered" status on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. The only status higher than that is "critically endangered" and then "extinct". Quoting from the species listing page on that site:




> Red List Category & Criteria:	 Endangered   A1d   ver 2.3
> 
> Countries:	
> Native:
> Cameroon; Central African Republic; Congo; Congo, The Democratic Republic of the; Gabon; Nigeria
> 
> Habitat and Ecology:	 Lowland rainforest.
> 
> Major Threat(s):	 Virtually all large trees of this species have been felled for the ebony wood, except perhaps in the most remote parts of its range.


So it's in the last phase of resource extraction, which is exactly the reason why there is a commercial move to maximize profit on the lower-grade wood.

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## DougC

It seems very clear to me that everyone on Mandolin Cafe loves wood. 
I would like to do something about it. 

For example I think we might send some sort of petition to Taylor and the others that they should do more. For example they could donate funds to sustainable conservation projects. i.e.  I know of a violin shop that pays a tree planting organization for every instrument sold. 

It is also very clear that the instrument making 'industry' will not change. The international efforts to conserve trees like CITES and ICUN and IPCI-usa are affirmative but they create a problems for exporting and travel. It is not perfect and we need to do better.


So tonight I am making a donation to ArborDay.org 
And my 100+ year old Norway Maple has to be cut down. It is being made into usable lumber by a local organization called Wood from the Hood.  

How about you?



http://www.arborday.org/shopping/donations/orderrfr.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CITES

http://www.ipci-usa.org/page3.html

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## Will Kimble

A powerful message, and nicely done.  I am glad I watched the video.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

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## John Arnold

> Most of the source of supply is from old stumps that were cut before 1992 when it was CITES listed. The wood is stunningly beautiful, but most of it is flat sawn and unstable, so buyer beware.


On the contrary, most of the BR stumpwood I have seen is quartersawn, but wavy-grained. Some of it is definitely unstable, but not necessarily for the reason you mentioned.



> Other sources are from old stashes purchased before 1992. For example, I have some that was imported into Australia in the early 1980s, so although not CITES documented it is still legal if it remains in Australia.


Nearly all the BR I have is pre-CITES, though I may not have documentation. I know that to be true because I have owned it that long.
There are two main reasons that BR availability has increased. Ebay became an outlet for the illicit suppliers in Brazil, though that has waned in the last couple of years. The other reason is because of price. A lot of the BR that was not sold because it was considered marginal has resurfaced because it is now bringing decent money.
I believe the same thing will happen with the ebony. An increase in the supply of mottled ebony will only drive up the price of the pure black grade. 

It is possible to farm some of the valuable tropical species, but the quality of the farmed wood is not the same as that from wild trees. Indian rosewood is planted to shade tea plantations, and those trees produce 'Indian rosewood' that is frequently referred to as Sonokeling.



> Ebony (Diospyros) is a rather slow growing tree that seems to produce the best "black" wood when exposed to various stressful conditions like drought or insect attack.


I have experimented with persimmon trees, in the effort to produce more black heartwood. The best way I have found to do this is to partially girdle the trunk. This allows the tree to live, but produce some dark wood on the side where the girdling was done.

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## Mike Bunting

> I didn't hear any talk at all of planting/growing new ebony. Is this something that is being done... can be done? Perhaps there's just no longer enough environment to do that... anybody know what's going on with ebony cultivation?


That is the saddest part of it all.

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## HoGo

From the video I understand that the forest is still there... He mentions that cutters have to go 8 kilometers from road to find ebony trees. That implies they go into forest and pick just ebony trees. That would be perfect just to cut one tree and plant several small ones in the open place. Perhaps there are already some seedlings around the old tree to grow up.
Why Ebony is not Iin cites is perhaps bacause it is so widespread in several countries and trees are far apart so no one really knows how many are left. BR grew on very small area on the east coast and that has been devastated so it's pretty clear not much is left.
As far as farming of ebony, I believe it'll need some experimentation and research and we can find a way. Perhaps first generation won't be perfect but next... We can produce diamonds and other precious things... so why not ebony.

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## Jeffff

Because musicians are a traditional bunch by and large. Not too many folks are ready for a synthetic fretboard on their mandolins or guitars. If you ask an acoustic guitar player what a guitar is made of the vast majority will tell you, spruce, rosewood or mahogany and ebony. For guitars maple has a small following, walnut even smaller. Cherry never really got a chance.

I see some people accusing Bob Taylor of questionable motives. How many will order a mandolin with a synthetic fretboard? Better yet, how man will buy a Mix?

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## Nick Gellie

Research into the autecology of significant rainforest tree species is sadly missing in all parts of the world because of misplaced priorities for research in the first world. We need to provide incentives for sustainable forest management in the third world, including research done by local people to make sustainable forest prouction a reality. In fact a levy should be put on every instrument that is made from rare or endangered hardwood species. Alternatively plantation grown hardwoods should be a must for instrument makers.

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## Jim Nollman

Jeffff, I don't see how you can possibly read through this discussion and conclude that the only choice we have is between ebony and some synthetic. Nor is there much truth to your statement that musicians are by and large a "traditional bunch". Musicians are people, and like everyone else we're a diverse lot. 

As far as your other comment, can we agree that this thread was initiated in response to Bob Taylor's strong statement about his company essentially cornering the ebony market. You are not being fair to imply that anyone who chimes in with an opinion about this multifaceted and timely issue is a hypocrite unless they play a Mix mandolin. Please let the thread continue without forcing theCafe moderator to shut it down for getting too heated.

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## Jeffff

I offered an opinion and asked a question. This is a common occurrence on the internet. 

If I hurt anyones feelings I apologize.

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## mandotrout777

> Because musicians are a traditional bunch by and large. Not too many folks are ready for a synthetic fretboard on their mandolins or guitars. If you ask an acoustic guitar player what a guitar is made of the vast majority will tell you, spruce, rosewood or mahogany and ebony. For guitars maple has a small following, walnut even smaller. Cherry never really got a chance.
> 
> I see some people accusing Bob Taylor of questionable motives. How many will order a mandolin with a synthetic fretboard? Better yet, how man will buy a Mix?


I have a Martin D16 RGT with a synthetic (micarta) fretboard and it's fine. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a mandolin with the same.

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## Dobe

Thread was getting a little hairy for a moment; how about a photo ! A buddy has a neary all white Ebony fingerboard w/ matched headplate on a new electric nearing completion. I'll try & get some pics of it shorty, but the board looked like this with almost no streaking. Made a heck of a stink when ripping it !

  :Popcorn:

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## Kerry Krishna

I don't talk about it much on these pages, but the local Windsor Plywood chain store here in Prince George Northern BC gets all the reject wood from the Canadial Larrivee factory. There is a LOT of wood that comes in too. One of the things that comes in at least once a year ( and they never run out) is unsloted/unproifiled ebony  fretboards . The bin that they get fits on a pallet, with the sides about 36 inches tall, filled to the brim. Probably about 5 thousand individual boards. I have bought dozens of them over the last 7 years here. Lots of streeking/cracked/warped unuseable boards, but what is cracked board for guitar, is a great board for a mandolin. Boards are $13.00 each.   It seems to me that I have seen a lot of ebony sifting through their piles.    Hundreds of mahogany back and site sets too, and ocasionally massivly flamed koa, and they also got a few bins of reject Koa uke necks a few years back. There must have been 5000 ofr them at one point. All sizes too. Each with the headstock cut about 1 inch too short for use ! I imagine someone lost their job over that!

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## Rob Grant

Cracks in ebony is part and parcel of the way the tree grows. I can't think of a billet from an ebony tree I've cut that doesn't contain multiple, fine cracks. Good 'ol thin CA glue is the cure here and if done properly the finished product is stronger and the cracks visually imperceptible. No ruckin' 'furries, mate!<g>

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## Jim Baker

But, who gets the black ebony? Will it be reserved for high end instrments? Will it sell for a premium?

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## John Arnold

> who gets the black ebony?


Whoever Taylor sells it to.



> Will it be reserved for high end instruments?


Probably. 



> Will it sell for a premium?


Definitely. Taylor may have some control over the supply, but on the secondary market, the price is set by demand.
There are two ways this could go....either the glut of mottled ebony will increase acceptance by the general public, or it will increase the demand for black ebony because of the relative scarcity.
It may be a wash, but I think the latter will win out.

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## Goodin

> Thread was getting a little hairy for a moment; how about a photo ! A buddy has a neary all white Ebony fingerboard w/ matched headplate on a new electric nearing completion. I'll try & get some pics of it shorty, but the board looked like this with almost no streaking. Made a heck of a stink when ripping it !


Beautiful wood...that appears to be "black and white" ebony which is a different species than the subject Gaboon ebony, just FYI.  I've never seen it used for fretboards and would be curious to see how it looks.

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## DougC

> I have a Martin D16 RGT with a synthetic (micarta) fretboard and it's fine. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a mandolin with the same.


This stuff is really better than ebony because it does not wear out. I would like that on my custom Collings mandolin.

Anybody have a guess as to how many ebony fret board / finger boards are made a day in the guitar / violin industry?

Spruce are you reading this? Any "insider" views?

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## jesserules

pearloid (aka MOTS) and formica have been used successfully for banjo fingerboards for decades now.

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## Jim Nollman

Where i live, I've noticed that a number of people have put in hardwood decks over the past few years. Ipe is the most popular and the most expensive, (about $9 a linear foot) followed by purpleheart and tigerwood (gonsolo Alves) (about $6.50 a linear foot). All of this stuff is plantation grown. These woods are actually cheaper than clear red cedar or yellow cedar, which is what just about everybody used to use for decks, 20 years ago. They are also much harder, and more resistant to decay than cedar. They never need stain or paint.

Before I'd ever seen this thread, I'd taken some notice of the Ipe as a potential replacement for ebony fingerboards. The wood naturally ages to a very dark brown. To my inexperienced eye, the wood seems as heavy and hard and clear as ebony.  

Because Ipe isn't used very much for instruments, I'd like to hear if maybe it has some structural flaw from a luthier's point of view. 

Of course, about half the decks being built where i live  are made with synthetics. I wouldn't expect many luthiers to use plastic decking material for fretboards, but not because they wouldn't do the job. Rather, plastic parts wouldn't be able to command the price of any beautiful wood. Then again, Ovation makes a great guitar out of plastic, and Mix makes a worthy mandolin, so why don't those companies experiment with synthetic fretboards?

Bottom line for me. If the instrument has the sound I'm seeking, and the body has a conifer top and any serviceable hardwood for the rest of the body and neck, i don't care a hoot what the fretboard is made from. So i guess that makes me a conservative and simultaneously a non-conservative.

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## Jim Nollman

Read this story today about the exploitation of one particular west African rainforest. Makes me wonder if this story in the NY Times bears any relationship to the new Taylor policy. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/op...s.html?_r=1&hp

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