# Instruments and Equipment > Videos, Pictures & Sound Files >  Post a Picture of Your Bowlback (or any others)

## Jim Garber

Due to lack of enthusiasm, I guess we lost this thread. In an attempt to resurrect it, I would call all the members of the order of the bowl to repost your images.

Here are a few of my 1902 Martin style 6, one day to be playable.

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## Jim Garber

Here ia a closeup of the bridge and tailpiece cover.

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## Jim Garber

Here is a closeup of the pickguard.

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## Jim Garber

Closeup of the headstock.

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## Jim Garber

One more, of the gear cover plate, showing the engraving.

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## Jim Garber

Here is another interesting one -- at least to me. Not sure of the maker but it is pretty ornate for an American bowlback.

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## Jim Garber

And a closeup of the pickguard.

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## Jim Garber

Another mystery mandolin. This I call a boatback, sort of a hybrid between a flatback and a bowlback. Some details look similar to some Larson instruments.

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Beautiful instruments Jim, I really like the pickguard inlay on the no name one.

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## jeffshuniak

gee, I hope I'm not being to redundant..having just posted these pics elswhere...but a bowl back pic series wouldnt be complete without the greek type...

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## jeffshuniak

no new closeups still.

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## jeffshuniak

little cracks

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## jeffshuniak

james, those are really nice, I really love the inlay of the woman with harp, nice

one day when I can afford it, I want one with gods, old gods inlaid on the pickguard. maybe apollo or dionysus in some scene.

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## John Uhrig

Repeating mine.
Old no-name, but plays and sounds very nice

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## Jim Garber

mandonucs:
That looks very similar to American Conservatory mandolins (made by Lyon &Healy) I have seen esp in the pickguard shape and the headstock.

Jim

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## ejkauf99

This is a 1924 Marca Aquila poject that was purchased off Ebay. When I got it, the neck had a severe bow, and all the braces were either cracked or loose. The back came off to repair or replace what was needed, and a new fingerboard was made to help straighten the neck. I was going to replace the headstock overlay to get rid of the rhinestones, and then do a complete
refinish, but decided against it at this time. Don't let first impressions fool you. She sounds loud, and crisp, and has great action.

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## Jim Garber

Is this a bowlback? What is the wood on the back like? 

Also, is this made by the Favilla family company?

Jim

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## ejkauf99

Hey Jim: Early riser? No it is a flat back, and like Most of the Favilla
instruments it is made of mahogany. They seem to have favored making well built
instrument with plain appointments that most people could actually afford. I have a small
collection of Favilla instruments. Mainly because I used to like to and talk with Big Tom 
at the Favilla music store before they closed. It was always very interesting to hear about the companys
history. Lest Everybody thinks That is my only mando, here is a pic of my pride and joy. She is a Lyon Healy Model C #443

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## Alekos

Once again; A. Mirone - Catania

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## Alekos

Here is my first - Alfonso Moretti, Neapoli ..

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## Jim Garber

Here is frontal of my Pandini, built last year.

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## Jim Garber

Here is the bowl-side view

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## Jim Garber

And my latest acquisition... the new bowlback I just got today...

Happy April Fool's Day.

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## grsnovi

The pictures of my Vega are still here:

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=12936

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## Jim Garber

To makre sure that this thread satys alive...

here is my 1896 mandolino Lombardo or Milanese mandolin by Serafino Casini.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

More details: scalloped fretboard and 6 gut strings. the bowl is shallower than a Neapolitan.

here is a back view.

Jim

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## Bob DeVellis

Okay- keeping it alive, a reprise of the Style 5 (poetry unintended)

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## pklima

Here's my 1921 Martin style 6a with extra-plain top trim. A distributor had some of these made, numbering somewhere in the lower double digits... I don't remember the details.

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## pklima

My 6a is plain on top, but it has the scalloped ribs of the style 6. With ivory spacers, too.

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## pklima

Here's the whole thing from the front... not the best photo, I'm afraid.

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## Eugene

You are in a position to receive my envy, Sr. Klima!

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## Jim Garber

I especially like the bear rug "baby" shots of our non-hockey player's 6a. Reminds me of Victor's thread of his new baby.

There is something exquisite of the plainness of this instrument. I can almost hear the sweetness of its sound.

Jim

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Sorry....

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## pklima

Thanks, guys. Though for the record that's a sheepskin. It certainly is a lovely-sounding mando, though.

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## Eugene

A couple of my ex-es. Here's one now in the (I hope and expect) loving custody of Cafe-er dvatchka. It's a ca. 1900 Brandt style 2.

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## Eugene

21-rib bowl:

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## Eugene

Every Brandt I've seen except two had a tastfully executed scroll (usually in natural maple, not lacquered black). #One exception was a dated, late-19th-c. example with a typical peghead, and the other featured a blocky and graceless partial scroll with a label that read "style 1."

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## Eugene

This old guy is a 1915 Martin style 2. When I bought it, it had the most offensive non-original, diagonal-fret, undecorated fingerboard imagineable. Dan Larson made the extended re-replacement. It went on eBay for $500 (a bargain compared to a style 0 ukulele!), almost $100 less than it cost me to obtain and restore (Hmmph!).

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## Eugene

26-rib bowl:

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## Eugene

Engraved tuning plates and ivoroid buttons:

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## Eugene

Here's a detail of the 29-fret fingerboard (sans 28):

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## Eugene

Care to add one more "ex," Jeff?

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## Jim Garber

> When I bought it, it had the most offensive non-original, diagonal-fret, undecorated fingerboard imagineable.


Eugene:
What exactly do you mean by a diagonal fret fingerboard?

Jim

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## Eugene

Exactly what it implies! Some of the frets weren't quite parallel with their neighbors.

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## Jim Garber

Ah, reptile dentistry-style of luthiery. I thought you meant one of those fan-fret fingerboards.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here's my Vega Style 3. Still have to get it and a few others. "Get thee to a lutherie..."

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## Jim Garber

And the back of the Vega Style 3

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## vkioulaphides

What exactly are the "issues pending" with this instrument, Jim? It, ehm... _looks_ healthy. 

I wish you the best of luck with this, and to the instrument, well, a speedy recovery to old glory!

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## Jim Garber

I have this nice little catalog from Luigi Ricca, a maker in New York at the turn of the last century. This is a pdf file of the entire catalog.

Mike Holmes says that his factory had upwards of 200 employees at one time. He probably made many instruments on contract.

Jim

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## Eugene

Inspired by Hubert's recent acquisition and the subsequent chatter, I decided to post this old warhorse once more. This is a 1908 one-of-a-kind Martin. It is backed in 42 fluted ribs of Brazilian rosewood but, unlike Peter's 6a, it uses maple spacers.

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## Eugene

The engraved tuner plates.

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## Eugene

The original cover plate of the tailpiece was missing. I had a period plate of steel buffed, engraved based upon elements in the tuners, and nickel plated by a gentleman named Andy Raftis.

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## pklima

Just for comparison, here's my 6a's tailpiece cover from a photo of the whole instrument - I removed the color and raised the contrast to make the engraving more visible. The engraving's certainly not as delicate as on Eugene's new tailpiece, but by 1921 it wasn't what it had been in 1904, either.

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## Eugene

How odd. I've never seen that pattern. I wonder if it's something they only used on the spartan-but-still-upper-class 6a or if it might be a replacement itself.

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## pklima

Hmmm... it might be a replacement - those things get lost often and are often replaced by whatever happens to be on a less expensive instrument nearby. The engraving's consistent with some of the elements on my 6a's tuner cover plates, though.

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## pklima

This detail shows the similar zigzag lines and shrublike bits. Apologies for the poor quality of the photo.

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## Eugene

The engraving on the tuner plates of your 1921 style 6a is like that on the 1915 style 2 I sold. Unfortunately, I didn't have the original coverplate for the tailpiece (the one I had used the pattern typical to Martin's style B). However, I have seen the tailpiece pattern to usually accompany those tuners. I seem to remember it being slightly different than your tailpiece, maybe a little more like the arcs around the points on the tuners. Of course, my memory may simply be flawed here as it is in most things...or this could simply be a different pattern that Martin embraced at a later date.

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## Jim Garber

Here's a few of my recently acquired Waldo bowlback. These are pretty unique since they have f-holes insteaqd of the usual round or oval sound holes. bacing is different: sort of an inverted V, getting wider down at the bottom. Hard to see in there. The sound is nice with ultralights, very mellow and less trebly than some bowlbacks. 

Condition includes the usual warped top around the f-holes. there seems to be some sort of reinforcement bracing on the edge of the holes but it didn;t do much good.

A few other pics to follow.

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## Jim Garber

Here's the back. I am not too sure what wood it is, sort of birdseye maple stained... or something else.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here's the butt end with an interesting configuration.

Jim

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## pklima

Interesting... I guess the soundholes aren't the only unusual thing about Waldos. I like these kinds of oddities, especially if they're actually functional.

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## Jim Garber

Nothing too outstanding here. Just an American Conservatory Style #10 mandola. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

The interesting thing is that the back is made of alternating rosewood and mahogany ribs. I didn't even realize that until I saw the 1912 catalog page.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Truly extraordinary, considering the, ehm... _subtle_ visual difference of the two woods, especially after the uniform French-polish; a first for me, the usual alternation being in the "clown's tights" pattern, maple-mahogany or something of that sort.

So, how does the 'dola actually _sound_? Somewhere in the remote future, perhaps a lower-than-mandolin bowlback instrument is in store for me.

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## Jim Garber

I imagine that the dual wood choice for the back was intentional for the mandola. It sounds wonderful. Rich on the low end and sweet on the upper. I may need to lower the bridge a touch.

BTW the scale length is 16.5 inches (420mm).

Jim

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## Jim Garber

To keep this thread alive... here is my Luigi Ricca (still) prior to restoration. I actually have the parts and it only needs a bridge. Someday soon...

BTW I have posted a pdf file of an 1890s Ricca catalog.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is a closeup of the peghead of the Ricca with that nice inlay.

Jim

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## Eugene

This is mighty tasty. I have liked every Ricca I have ever seen. I'd love to see this one in person. Who is doing the bridge for you, Jim?

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## Eugene

Here is my new mandolino by Luciano Faria after Smorsone (1736) to have just arrived yesterday afternoon.

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## Eugene

...And the back.

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## Jim Garber

> This is mighty tasty. #I have liked every Ricca I have ever seen. #I'd love to see this one in person. #Who is doing the bridge for you, Jim?


I have been consulting with various friends in the know and on this board and may attempt to do one of my own. I would think that it might be the two piece with the bone insert or may just adapt a std ebony bridge to check out the neck angle etc then attempt a better one.

On the third hand, I might just commission a competent someone to make one for me.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

That Smorsone clone is gorgeous. How does it sound? I can't recall, Eugene if you have been playing mandolino and have others.

Congratulations!

Jim

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## Eugene

Thank you, Jim. #It sounds pretty good to me, but I'm not fond of the persistent klang of nylon on such stuff. #So strung, this sounds almost quietly harp-like to me throughout the lower four courses. #I'm eager to hear it with gut, possibly under slightly higher tension; the strings don't feel very resistant at pitch.

Nope, this is my first instrument in this tuning. #In the wee bit of time I've spent with it so far, I've only managed to digest the initial tutti of Vivaldi's concerto in C.

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## Alekos

Here is my A.Mirone after 2nd renovation (compare it with the photo on the 1st site of this topic) ..

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## jasona

Looks great!

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## Eugene

Carrying on in an early-kin vein, most people here who would care have seen this a dozen times before, but just in case...

Here is a ca. 1835 anonymous piece to predate geared tuners and metal tailpieces. Alex Timmerman attributes this to the shop of Clement Eulry, France and that attribution seems as likely as any.

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## Eugene

It is backed in alternating maple and rosewood ribs.

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## Eugene

The clasp features some very simple, elegant scroll work.

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## Jim Garber

Eugene:
I love the simplicity and elegance of the design. Give me that any day over overdone pearl etc. 

 Have you strung that with Gamut gut strings? Would one play it with a pick or fingers?

Jim

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## Eugene

The strings fix to the tail block via 4 ivory hitch pins, one per course.

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## Eugene

Greetings Jim,
This breed was played with a quill. #I've been using a sliver of celluloid I shaped to emulate quill (you can see it tucked under the strings in the first image), but I'll try working feathers into something useful again in the near future thanks to some fine, detailed instruction posted by Alex. #Yes, I use Gamut strings, but in this case they are silver-wound silk for the g (and plain wire on the octave g'), twisted brass wire for d', fine plain wire for a', and gut for e". #Gut is rather short-lived under the quill, so I tend to use ca. 0.5 mm nylon for e" unless I am playing out. #The a' strings are really fragile, so I keep a stash of fine brass harpsichord wire that I buy from Ben Bechtel, a local harpsichord builder.

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## John Bertotti

My Vega . Sounds great to me and the monkey loves it. Oddly enogh the dog groans when I play but my cats come and listen. John

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## Jim Garber

Here's an odd one. I have never seen one in person but it comes from a 1889-90 Lyon & Healy catalog. I love the sound holes.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here's a description of this model 1214. I like the fact that you get 50 free lessons with it.

Jim

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## Lowk

I thought I'd just make all you guys with lovely bowlbacks feel even better about it by posting a pic of my plain old (slightly beaten up) mandolin. It's a czechoslovakian mandolin from a company called Lignatone which I expect has been old of buisiness for a while. There is something quite satisfying about owning a mandolin from a company that is no longer in existance, based in a country that is no longer in existance.

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## Jim Garber

> I thought I'd just make all you guys with lovely bowlbacks feel even better about it by posting a pic of my plain old (slightly beaten up) mandolin. It's a czechoslovakian #mandolin from a company called Lignatone which I expect has been old of buisiness for a while. There is something quite satisfying about owning a mandolin from a company that is no longer in existance, based in a country that is no longer in existance.


Well, I own quite a few mandolins from companies that are out of business, but none from countries that no longer exist. 

I am also an admirer of the good sounding, good playing utilitarian, inexpesnsive mandolin. 

Thanks for posting...

Jim

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## onthefiddle

I was just browsing through this thread, when I was quite startled to see Eugene's mandolin (ca. 1835, attributed to Clement Eulry), as I have a very similair instrument myself!
I've yet to actually take physical possesion of it, as it's in the UK, while I'm in Canada for another six weeks (I've been working over here for most of the last year). It was an eBay buy that I had sent to my parents address.
Mine was converted to machine tuners at some point (presumably in the nineteenth century), but I plan to convert it back again. It also has some open seams on the back, but is crack free - so not too much work is required.
I'm very curious to see if the fingerboard is original, or whether it would have had a fingerboard flush with the soundboard. Am I correct in assuming that the fingerboard is original on your instrument Eugene?
Anyway, here are some pictures that were taken by my father:

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## onthefiddle

Here is the back. While it shares the alternating rosewood/maple ribs of Eugene's mandolin, it doesn't have the more decorative apron rib:

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## onthefiddle

This is a close-up of the peg head. If you look carefully you can see where the peg holes were bushed before the tuners were fitted:

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## onthefiddle

The final picture is from the auction, showing the mandolin in its (original?) case.
Unfortunately this instrument is also apparently anonymous - unlabeled or marked in any way.
My limited research had led me to the conclusion that it might be French, but no further.
If anyone could shed any more light as to its origins I would be extremely interested!
Also - are the pegs on your instrument original Eugene? I would very much like to see a close-up of one, as I could then have some copies made. Measurements would also be very useful in this respect, particularly of the head (knob?) and the average distance from the collars to the instruments peghead.
Thanks!

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## Jim Garber

Interesting Eulry (attributed) mandolin. One question I have for those who know these things: is it possible that those tuners are original or that the original tuners were mechanical rather than violin-type? I know that it is possible that the holes were plugged and a new peghead overlay could have been created. I would suppose that by examining the instrument you could determine if the larger holes required for the pegs were plugged and redrilled. 

But remember: this is the same period as the earliest Martin guitars, many of which had geared tuners. 

Upon second examination, it does look like there is evidence of the earlier pegs on that close-up of the peghead. I left my other comments above to stimulate discussion about when geared tuners appeared on early Neapolitan mandolins.

In any case, it looks like those tuners are quite old in themselves, tho maybe not quite as old as the mandolin.

BTW I found a listing in Henley's for Eulry. He is better known for his violin bows:



> EULRY, CLEMENT
> Worked in Mirecourt, 1820-1865. Eight-stringed (in four pairs) mandolines with backs inlaid with different woods. Produced many admirable bows in the style of Nicholas Maire (for whom he worked). Stamped "Eulry." Also, s0olid-looking violins, not especially well varnished.


Jim

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## onthefiddle

Yes, obviously from here I can't say for certain that these tuners aren't simply replacements for an older set. 
The main thing that is leading me to this conclusion is the spacing of the bushings - very wide for machine tuners, but typical for pegs mounted through a peghead. The wide spacing would be to provide fingerspace between the pegs.
When I finally get my hands on this I'll take off the tuners and measure the bushings from both sides. If the holes on the back of the peghead were larger then it almost certainly had pegs (I've yet to see tuners with a tapered shaft). If the holes are the same size it will still be inconclusive of course, as the tapered pegholes could have been simply drilled out and filled with round dowel, instead of properly bushed.
As far as I'm aware machine tuners first appeared in England in the eighteenth century on English Guitars (actually a type of Cittern). The English Guitar spread to Portugal where it developed into the Portugese Bandurria, modern examples of the latter still often sport one of the original styles of machine tuners - with the strings attaching to hooks and adjusted with a screw mechanism from above. If I remember rightly there were other styles developed, including some more closely resembling the more normal modern forms of machine tuners. I'm having to take all this from memory, as I don't have any reference materials regarding English Guitars here.
With respect to the Eulry attribution, I don't believe that my instrument is by the same maker as Eugene's. There are lots of stylistic differences, as well as the obvious similarities. For example the shape of the back of the peghead as it meets the neck. Mine more closely resembles my Vega, whereas Eugene's looks to resemble the joint used on Martins - both later American manufacturers of course, but they help me illustrate my point.
Of course mine may be an Eulry - what is more certain is that both our instruments came from about the same period, and possibly from the same region.
Thanks for your research Jim, especially the quote from Henley - both instruments would certainly seem to match the description there.

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## Eugene

Man, I have a bit of reply to offer, but Mrs. Eugene is demanding I leave the office and come home. I'll write from there over the weekend.

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## onthefiddle

Thanks Eugene - I look forward to it!
Jim - one thing occurs to me regarding geared tuners - the change was probably driven by the change in strings - steel strings really require a fine tuning mechanism. The same change led to the introduction of fine tuners on violin tailpieces, and the invention of geared tuners was probably string driven in the case of the English Guitar. Anyway, if we continue this topic it should be in a new thread in the "Classical, Medieval/Renaissance" section.
Jon

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## Eugene

Welcome, Lowk. Lignatone is still around. Their name is now Strunal.

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## Eugene

I think you are spot on regarding the evolution of geared tuners and the English guitar, Jon. #While geared tuners started appearing on true guitars ca. 1820 or so, it took a while before they were applied to mandolins. #According to Sparks, the first mandolins with geared tuners and elevated fingerboards were ca. 1835 pieces by Pasquale Vinaccia. #It took a while to spread elsewhere.

Regarding our similar instruments, Jon, the fingerboard has been off mine for some work. #There is no evidence of a once-functional flush fingerboard underneath. #Mine also sports very old-fashioned bar frets of brass. #I believe the fingerboard of mine to be original.

However, the tuning pegs are not original. #Mine has a mismatched assemblage of violin pegs. #Still, I believe mine was not built for geared machines and did originally carry simple pegs, but probably with finer heads than the violin pegs it now sports.

If not from the Eulry shop, I am certain both yours and mine are from mid 19th c. Mirecourt, France. #Mine is probably a bit earlier than yours (maybe by a decade or so). #The crests of the head of mine are ornamented with rather old-fashioned ivory knobs (actually longish pins set into the headstock with knob-like heads protruding). #Is there any evidence yours once was as well, Jon? #The clasp of mine also extends around the neck joint and features some old-fashioned scroll work. #I'm guessing the tailpiece on yours was also a later addition, along with the tuners. #Is there evidence of holes for hitch pins beneath the tailpiece?

Mine is exactly identical in construction to a piece being offered by Sinier de Ridder (his is in much better shape). #If his pegs are not original, they are probably very like the originals.

Note the odd pseudo-heel at the neck-body joint. #It perfectly stops the hand at the 4th position.

These images are from de Ridder's shop.

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## Eugene

PS: Of his, de Ridder says:



> Romantic mandolin, copy of a neapolitan mandolin,
> anonymous, Mirecourt (France) circa 1850. 
> 
> Spruce table, body with alternative ribs of mapple and rosewood, string length: 33.5 cm. During the 19th century, because an important [t]ask, the workshops of Mirecourt made with a great craftsmanship, many instruments, guitars, mandolins, violins, etc...as copy of old masters, or famous schools.

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## onthefiddle

Thanks for your reply Eugene, and for the pictures of Sinier de Ridder's mandolin. I will get in touch with him and ask him if he could spare the time to take some measurements of the pegs. 
If you like, I could have two sets made up. I know a lute maker in the UK who makes very nice pegs to order, and whose prices are very reasonable. He does have a waiting list, I ordered a set of pegs from him before which took several months to arrive, but were well worth the wait. Also, I won't be able to draw the peg design for him until the end of September - so you may not see them until January! 
If you're interested then it would be useful if you could take a few measuements from your instrument and email them to me. I need the size of the hole on the back of the pegbox for your thickest peg, the thickness of the shaft of the peg at the end and just beside the collar, and the length of the shaft from the collar to the tip. This way I can hopefully avoid the need for bushings on your instrument. If the peg is extremely thick then a bushing may be a good idea though - as tuning will be unneccesarily coarse.
I can't see any signs of ivory finials on the pictures I have of my mandolin, I haven't seen the top of the peghead though.
I think my instrument may well have hitchpins currently, though I haven't got a direct picture of them either. The attached picture seems to show a metal edge protector, and four rosewood hitchpins. I don't know how original either of these are of course.
Regarding the fingerboard, mine seems to be stylistically consistent with yours and Sinier de Ridder's, and also has brass bar frets. I won't know for sure whether it's original or not until I get to see it in person, that's five weeks away though!

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## Eugene

Thanks for the offer of pegs, Jon. #Can I assume you are going to use Bruce Brook for yours? #Actually, I know a local luthier who does pegs for hire; he supplies pegs to Ontario luthier Michael Schreiner. #I have already discussed bushing and re-pegging mine with a more appropriate set and may move forward soon.

I'm not certain, but the pins on yours may be metal and incorporated into the tailpiece. #Such one-piece tailpieces with four metal pins were pretty common in the late 19th c., sometime after the hitch-pin-set-into-the-end-block arrangement but before the covered tailpiece became popular.

More on tuners, there is an odd Roman mandolin by Petroni (1865) with those odd clock-key tuners used on English guitars. #I'm glad they never really caught on on mandolins. #When Martin came to the US in the 1830s, geared tuners were optional on Martin guitars and referred to as "patented screws." They were that Germanic six-on-a-side arrangement for scrolled Strat-like headstocks.

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## onthefiddle

Hi Eugene,
It's not Bruce Brook I have in mind, though unfortunately the name of the luthier seems to have completely slipped from my memory! I have his contact details back in the UK though. Anyway - it looks like you have a good source there, that will be much faster than mine!
You're probably right about the tailpiece. I just 'phoned my father and his description sounded like a tailpiece, he's going to send me a couple more pictures to confirm that. This may help date the conversion, and give me a useful set of spare fittings for a later romantic mandolin restoration!

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## Eugene

If detailed images of mine would help in any way, feel free to drop me an e-mail.
Good luck with it,
Eugene

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## onthefiddle

Thanks Eugene! I may take you up on that once I have had a chance to properly inspect the instrument. 
The latest two photos that my father sent me show that there may have been some type of finial on the central section of the top of the peghead, and that you were right about the tailpiece. I'll let you know if it has holes for hitchpins beneath when I get back to the UK.

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## pklima

Here's my ugly German mandola... I haven't yet figured out how I want to string and tune it, but I've gotten it into a sufficiently decent shape to post a few photos.

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## pklima

It's really odd to see scalloped ribs on something that has so few of them.

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## pklima

The kidney-shaped soundhole and ugly pickguard... well, at least the inlay is better-executed than most of the German instruments. There's real mother-of-pearl and real abalone, possibly even real ivory and real coral.

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## pklima

Finally, the always popular rear end shot. The fluting of the ribs is very shallow, but I suppose with this few ribs that's the only way it can be.

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## Eugene

I suspect the fluting is a result of natural shrinkage. I love the fingerboard terminus that is shaped to fit around a soundhole...only some _other_ soundhole. I really think the whole thing is kinda groovy, Peter, and should prove good fun.

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## Darryl Wolfe

Here's a cool set of bowlback tuners I recently picked up on ebay. Do the buttons look familiar?

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## Eugene

Risky business, showing such stuff to this lot. Stuff like that is a rare commodity. Prepare for the descent of vultures.

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## pklima

> I suspect the fluting is a result of natural shrinkage. #I love the fingerboard terminus that is shaped to fit around a soundhole...only some _other_ soundhole. #I really think the whole thing is kinda groovy, Peter, and should prove good fun.


It is good fun, though I suspect it'll be better with lighter strings and CGDA tuning; the low G course doesn't sound like much.

Fluting through shrinkage is a plausible and interesting idea, but I'm inclined to think the ribs really are fluted. The Germans often make waldzithers and mandokin with semi-flat backs consisting of a few broad staves. Those often display similar shallow scalloping.

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## Martin Jonas

> Fluting through shrinkage is a plausible and interesting idea, but I'm inclined to think the ribs really are fluted. The Germans often make waldzithers and mandokin with semi-flat backs consisting of a few broad staves. Those often display similar shallow scalloping.


Indeed. My German Majestic semi flatback has seven staves, with a distinct, though shallow, scalloping. The construction is quite different from a bowl, though, and much easier to build. The staves are all the same width and the seams are all parallel. This type of scalloping isn't really comparable to that on a top-end Martin, say.

Martin

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## Plamen Ivanov

Hello

Eugene and onthefiddle look at the picture below. This one looks very similar to yours. There are some initials on the case - F.M.C. May be some of you both has to try to contact the painter Steven J. Levine.

Good luck!

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## Plamen Ivanov

Oh, and Peter, I don`t find this mandola so ugly...

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## pklima

I don't think that mandola's ugly; even the kidney-shaped soundhole and the fingerboard/soundhole mismatch are charming in their own way. The pickguard inlay, on the other hand... that's just ugly. I've seen far worse, but still...

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## onthefiddle

Thanks for the picture Plami!
The mandolin is a little strange - the body is clearly that of a similair instrument to Eugene's and my own, yet it has a slotted head - which can only mean tuners, as far as I'm aware. 
I suppose it would be possible to convert a peghead to a slotted head with tuners - as long as the peghead was thick enough to allow mounting the tuners on it's sides. It would mean major changes to the peghead though - the sides being flattened and the slots being cut. 
Or of course - it may have had a new head grafted on, following an accident. I have a nice octave mandola that had the same work done - though not with a slotted head.
Jon

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## Eugene

I would guess that both this piece and Jon's started life as a similar instrument and both were subsequenly modified at a similar date in a similar way. #This wasn't at all uncommon for working instruments made just before some evolutionary step; e.g., there are piles of 6-string guitars in museums that resulted from shortening the pegheads of the last generation of 5-course guitars.

When you do convert your mandolin back to pegs and hitch pins, Jon, Gamut Strings is a ready source of pre-assembled string sets appropriate to the instrument. #Click on "Mandolin strings" followed by "Baroque Neapolitan mandolin strings" (you'll have to forgive the fact that the Neapolitan mandolin did not exist during the proper baroque era). #Be warned, the d of twisted brass takes some getting used to.

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## onthefiddle

The point you made about conversions makes a lot of sense Eugene. In fact nearly all violins of the Cremonese "Golden Period" have been converted from Baroque to Modern setups - including having their necks replaced (or reset and reshaped) and their bass bars changed for longer, deeper ones - to accomodate changes in stringing and technique. Beyond this all their removable fittings have of course been changed. With the rise in interest in "Early Music" there has been some movement towards reversing these changes though. Thankfully much less work is required on my mandolin!
Thanks for the Gamut strings link - I was actually thinking of ordering from Northern Renaissance Instruments in the UK. They wouldn't be so convenient from North America, but their website does have a lot of interesting information, so is definitely worth a look. Have you had a chance to compare wound gut and wound silk for the low octave G string?

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## Eugene

> Have you had a chance to compare wound gut and wound silk for the low octave G string?


I have not. #I know NRI tells us tonal balance across courses wasn't nearly the concern for rococo-era musicians as it is for us...but I still like more balance than not. #I have only used wound silk to date, which, I would imagine, is a little more sustaining than wound gut would be: i.e. just a little closer to the brass. #If you do a comparison, I'd be interested in your opinion.

If it's of any interest, the only recording of which I'm aware that uses historic stringing is Richard Walz's Works for Mandolin and Fortepiano (1998, Globe GLO 5187). #Other period-instrument recordings I like are Ensemble Baschenis's The Early Mandolin (1998, Ducale CDL 025), Christian Schneider's Mandoline Galante (1999, Caliope CAL 9274), and Caterina Lichtenberg's Musikinstrumente des Ferdinandeums (1997, Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum). #I believe the former two of these string with wire throughout and use a g course in unison; Caterina used gut throughout on hers.

I found "A Guide to Playing the Neapolitan Mandoline" by Paul Sparks to be very helpful (Tyler & Sparks. 1989. The Early Mandolin. Clarendon Press, Oxford). #Minkoff also bound the Leone, Fouchetti, and Denis methods in one handy volume (1983. Methodes de Mandoline. Minkoff Reprint, Geneve). #Please pardon my presumption if you've already come across all this.

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## Eugene

Struggling to keep this chat alive, here's a nice 1905-1909 Washburn style 225 that I bought a little while ago.

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## Eugene

I love the groovy multi-colored herringbone trim and rosette; I also love all the engraved pearl position markers: way more cool than such an affordable instrument should be allowed to carry. #This bridge was horrific and had been fit to an arched top; given that this top is canted but flat, the bridge has gotsta go. #I've used Ben Wilcox to do this kind of work for me before and wll probably see if he's available to craft a reproduction bridge for this.

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## Eugene

Another cool feature of all but the most spartan Washburns was engraving of the metal hardware. #Unfortunately, two of the tuners slipped and were untunable. #Also unfortunately, this one was fit with the irreparable-in-most-situautions tuners where the worm wheel is peened onto the post. #In trying to re-peen, my local guy ended up cracking one of the brass gears. #The wheel is now pinned to the post, and I am waiting for the now slightly broader gear to be ground down so it can re-mesh with the worm gear.

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## Eugene

Other than the tuners and bad bridge, this is mighty healthy: no cracks or separations, minimal wear, etc. #Odd as it seems to me, Lyon & Healy used celluloid as spacers between the ribs of their bowlbacks.

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## Jim Garber

> Another cool feature of all but the most spartan Washburns was engraving of the metal hardware. #Unfortunately, two of the tuners slipped and were untunable. #Also unfortunately, this one was fit with the irreparable-in-most-situautions tuners where the worm wheel is peened onto the post. #In trying to re-peen, my local guy ended up cracking one of the brass gears. #The wheel is now pinned to the post, and I am waiting for the now slightly broader gear to be ground down so it can remesh with the worm gear.


Eugene:
I have the same model Washburn with the exact same problem with two of the tuning gears. Neil Russell has a method of fixing these but I haven't yet gotten around to sending the tuners to him

Jim

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## Eugene

It was Neil who advised my local guy and pinned the gear after it had been damaged. #Neil re-peens (it's much more complex than implied by a single word, but that word is the essence of it), but it's a tricky business and too far will cack the brass gear.

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## Joe F

The card is advertising reed organs, but I didn't know they came in bowlback shape:

eBay

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## Jim Garber

All right... I am insane, but I didn't realize how completely insane I was until I assembled the attached photo. 

L to R, top row: Harwood, Vega Style 3, Martin Style 6, Pandini, L. Ricca, Washburn 225, Stridente;
Bottom row: C. Biggio, No Name "Boatback", Grauso, American Conservatory mandola, Waldo, No Name Pearl bordered.

Yikes!

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## Eugene

This is supposed to be "pictures of your bowlback," not "picture of your bowlbacks!" I think this is some kind of violation.

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

You got MAS

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## JGWoods

All those mandos for less than the price of a fancy Gibson I bet. 
Great picture!

best
jgwoods

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## Jim Garber

> All those mandos for less than the price of a fancy Gibson I bet.


Well, definitely less than a Loar. My Pandini cost about what a good contemporary A would go for. The Martin is too fancy for its own good but needs considerable work but I paid a reasonable price for a next-to-top of the line vintage instrument. The others were mostly gotten on eBay so a few hundred here and there.

Suffice it to say -- more $$ than I would like to think about.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

> This is supposed to be "pictures of your bowlback," not "picture of your bowlbacks!" #I think this is some kind of violation.


Eugene:
I know for a fact that even you have more than one.

Jim

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## Eugene

*Shhh...*

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## Jim Garber

All right... it is our little secret  
Jim

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## Eugene

Another whispered aside: A good many have moved through my stable, but you are sporting comfortably more than I am at this time, Jim. #This is a collection of which you should be very proud. #I'm particularly fond of your Ricca...and the Harwood is groovy if only for its obscurity, almost Germanically broad soundbox, freaky scratchplate, and ties of the brand to some rather cool harp-guitars.

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## Jim Garber

The Harwood is playable and has a rather loud sound, not particularly refined. Then again, I have it strung with GHS ultralights.

The Ricca is one that needs some parts. I have been trying to get an actual Ricca tailpiece and almost bought a basket case one last year just for the tailpiece.

Jim

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## resonant68

I'm having trouble posting the address for my pics...how do I?

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## Keith Miller

That's 13 mandos there, VERY unlucky number...better get another #

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## Jim Garber

> I'm having trouble posting the address for my pics...how do I?


Try this thread for info.

Jim

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## Arto

How do you make the pictures smaller size, to make it possible to post them here? (I suppose my 16 year old son would know, but I can´t follow his explanations and he can´t tolerate slow-wit fossils like myself!)

thanks, Arto

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## Jim Garber

Arto:
 You can make the pics smaller in an imaging program. You might even have one that came with your camera or scanner.

Or, contact me off-list and send me a few via email and I can send them back to you smaller.

Jim

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## acousticphd

> All right... I am insane, but I didn't realize how completely insane I was until I assembled the attached photo.


Jim, I'd like to ask where I can get one of those nice, oversized red plush padded mandolin stands like you show in your picture.

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## Jim Garber

That is a special mandolin stand made for and unlucky number of mandolins. #I think I got it at Dawg's House of Furniture on Rte 1.

It is signed by Lloyd Loar. 

Jim

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## onthefiddle

Hi everyone - sorry to be silent so long - I've just got internet access again, but that's another story!
Eugene - I visited the Victoria & Albert museum in London a few weeks ago, and they have a labelled Clement Eulry mandolin which is all but identical to your own. Having seen it I'd be very surprised if yours isn't an Eulry.
I have to go down to London next week again, so I'll take my digital camera with me, and try to find the time to pop into the V&A again. I'll post the results here.
Jon

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## Eugene

Welcome back, Jon. You'll have to check out the famous 6-course mandolino by Lambert at the V&A. They also hold that weird tri-holed (theorbo-like) mandolino by Perugia, some great 18th-c. Vinaccia stuff, the Petroni with Portuguese-like tuners, and guitars...don't even get me started on guitars. Can you manage a couple pictures?

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## onlyagibsonisgoodenuff

My grandfather used to play this one, which inspired me to play mandolin. Although I favored the archtop mandolins, like Gibson, etc. I couldn't get this one to play in tune or stay in my lap!

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## Jim Garber

I just got back from CMSA and managed to sanre a few pictures of some bowlbacks. There were quite a few interesting ones that I wish I had time to track down the folks who had them. Oh well, next time.

This is the amazing Calace liuto cantabile that the Munier Orchestra owns. Holding it is David Betts who plays this monster in the orch and is the caretaker of it. The neck is humongous. I must ask him for the year that it was made.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the back of the Calace liuto.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is a nice maple-bowled Calace mandolin made in 1948 and owned by Dave Evans.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the back of the '48 Calace

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## onthefiddle

I've just got back from my trip to London and the V&A. 
I have to apologise in advance for the quality of the pictures, I was trying a new camera - who would guess that a higher resolution camera would produce lower resolution pictures? Conditions were a little extreme for it though - it's actually very dark in the Musical Instrument section, and the glass cases make using flash pointless. Camera shake doesn't help either!
You'll be pleased to know, Eugene, that the Eulry is flanked by two Vinaccias - a Vincenzo and an Antonio if I remember rightly - so it's in very fine company.
The quality should be sufficient to give you a good idea of how similair they are anyway

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## onthefiddle

Here's a three-quarter view of the Eulry:

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## Eugene

Thanks for that, Jon. What an odd little scratchplate. It doesn't quite seem to fit. Living right next door to a couple of Vinaccia kin, I'm vicariously flattered.

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## onthefiddle

Here's a view of the back of the Eulry. I hope these pictures have helped, next time I'm in London I'll take my old 2.1 megapixel Sony and get some better shots - it's back to the shop for this camera! 
I'm afraid I don't have details, such as year, for this - as I took a photo of the accompanying card (as I normally do), unfortunately it's completely undecipherable!

Jon

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Heres a old Washburn I keep around for when I want to go back, way back to my roots

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

And heres a close up of the tailpiece cover for that ol' Washburn

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## Jim Garber

Mike:
That looks like a model 235 from circa 1912. Does it have a cross-like inlay on the headstock and 28 rosewood ribs? That is a nice one. 

Jim

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## Bob A

Jon, I don't know if they can be attached to a digital camera, but a polarising filter is a great way to eliminate the reflections of a glass case; I'd encourage you to consider trying one out. (They also have interesting effects on color saturation etc. And with the instant gratification available in the digiworld, it would be easy to see the immediate effects of filter rotation).

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Hey Jim,

Yes it has the cross inlay, but I only count 26 ribs, not including the 2 larger ones on the sides, 26 plus 2= 28, yup 28 ribs  I take some more pics when my camera recharges

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## onthefiddle

Hi Bob,
I do actually have a polarising filter for my older Sony camera - you have to use the right sort with a digital camera, I'm afraid I can't even remember what the different types are though! 
Unfortunately, conditions in the V&A are pretty unsuitable for using a polarising filter - it's very dark in the musical instrument section, some instruments are kept in darkened cases which you can light momentarily if you want to see them. I suppose this is because their varnish contains light fugitive pigments.
The glass cases render flash pretty impractical too. As I said - I was testing that camera pretty hard. Still I think my old Sony would have done better, there's only one way to be sure though - but I don't know when I'll be in London next.
If you happen to be in London I can recommend a visit to the V&A for it's mandolins, as well as the many other fine and unusual instruments there - it's a huge museum, if you spent a week there you may only scratch the surface!
Jon

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## Martin Jonas

As it happens, I had a couple of free hours in London on Friday and popped into the V&A. The main impression that I take back is always that of a vast maze. Even with the map they provide, it's virtually impossible to find anything without having the guards give you directions, and the Musical Instruments department is one of the worst, being situated on an open platform floating above the Fashion department. Still, it has a lot of fascinating instruments, although lutes and citterns seem to feature rather more prominently than mandolins or other mandokin.

Martin

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## sailor

Oops, added pics of my mandolin as new topic instead of as reply. So the pics of my unknown bowlback are under the topic "Whatsit" under Post a picture of your mandolin. Heres a link to my site with all the pics My Webpage

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## Eugene

Here's the return of "not quite what you expected:" an odd speculative reproduction of a 16th-c. vaulted-back vihuela da mano. #Although there are a couple seam separations currently receiving attention, the ribbed maple back is awesome, every rib intensely flamed and beautifully contrasted in changing the angle of view.

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## Eugene

The top is another matter. #I suspect it was built very early in the early-music revival, maybe ca. 1970, before folks had really figured out how to make such lightly gut-strung instruments functional as instruments. #As nice as the "bowl" is, the top is far too heavy, the rose rather coarse, and the bridge is massive, sporting a guitar-like saddle. #Too bad, because a very fine piece of spruce went into the top's construction. #This piece has re-entered my thoughts because it's been carried to the local luthier for an overhaul. #He will either 1) plane the existing soundboard to a functional, responsive thickness and chop out the coarse rose to replace it with an inset one or 2) replace the soundboard altogether and chip carve a new rose. #The gross and lumpy bridge is going to be replaced with a more appropriately lute-like one. #I'm looking forward to its return.

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## Eugene

Jon, I'm also curious if you've ever received your mid-19th-c. mandolin, and I'm curious regarding its current state of being. Do you have the time to share?

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## onthefiddle

Hi Eugene,

I've been really busy since I got back to the UK, and unfortunately haven't had any time to work on my own instruments. I suppose that's a good thing  

I have taken the tailpiece off, and it has never had hitchpins. However, it does look like it was originally set up with pegs. I did find a picture of an identical instrument with pegs fitted, but can't seem to find it it right now - I'll have a look when I have more time later.
This may make it a transitional mandolin. Stringing is the most interesting aspect here, the whole world would not have switched to steel strings immediately, and it seems unlikely that a steel strung mandolin with pegs would be a very practical instrument. 
I would be interested to hear of anyone else's opinion on when the older mixed strings finally faded out.

I had better get back to work now!
Jon

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## onthefiddle

Eugene,

I haven't been able to find that photo (I had to restore a backup after my PC was infected with a virus recently, and it may have been lost then).
I was looking at the claimed "early Embergher" that has been offered on eBay recently. This has friction tuners, positioned in a similair manner to pegs, and this is obviously another possibility. I'll keep my mind open though, as it is certainly in the style of an older mandolin.

Jon

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## onthefiddle

I was going to attach a picture of the friction tuners to my last post, but it strangely dissapeared  
Hopefully you should see it now.

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## onthefiddle

I have some more news on my nineteenth century Mandolin. An identical instrument was recently put up for sale on ebay.co.uk . The seller withdrew it quite quickly, as the amount of questions he received made him believe that perhaps he had an old Vinaccia. I would also be very pleased if this turned out to be the case - but it seems extremely unlikely! He has told me that he will be relisting it soon.

The interesting thing about this mandolin is that it is still fitted with pegs. Not normal pegs however, they have metal eyelets on the end, like friction tuners, but apparently they are pegs. 

This may not make things clearer necessarily. The pegs point to perhaps a late instrument intended for the older stringing, while the tailpiece and metal eyelets probably point to steel cored strings (which would cause more wear to the string holes on completely wooden pegs).

My best guess is that these were (perhaps French) entry level instruments, made at the beginning of the big mandolin revival, in the latter half of the nineteenth century. I'm not so sure what strings they were made for, but I'll probably fit pegs to my Mandolin, and string it up with the older stringing to give me an inexpensive "Baroque" style Neapolitan Mandolin.

The seller of the Mandolin which turned up recently sent me some photos, so I'll post a few of those here.

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## onthefiddle

Here are the pegs viewed from behind the peghead.

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## onthefiddle

Here is the front of the peghead. 
This Mandolin sports mother of pearl dot inlays on the peghead, which is the only difference that I have spotted between this instrument and my own.

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## onthefiddle

I've had a thought regarding the unusual pegs with metal eyelets on this mandolin.

The use of pegs on a Neapoltan mandolin, even with the older mixed strings, has it's downside. This is because of the instruments use of a peghead as opposed to a pegbox.
String tension will tend to pull the end of the pegs towards the nut. On the rear of the pegbox the shaft of the peg will be pressing against the upper side of the peghole.
Because of this the pegholes will tend to become oval quite quickly - making tuning more difficult and causing them to slip easily. 

This is not so much of a problem for instruments with a pegbox, as the pegs are supported either side of the strings.

You'll note that the pegs on this mandolin are fitted so that the ends are not quite flush with the front face of the peghead. The eyelets project very little indeed. I think that they were probably used to help minimise this problem.

I don't know if you have had your new pegs made and fitted yet Eugene, but this does have some implications regarding materials used. Because of the nature of this wear to the pegholes, I think it would be wise to reverse the modern practice of using pegs made from a harder material than the pegbox (or peghead in this case). It's not such a good idea to bush pegholes overly frequently, just in terms of maintaining the original fabric of the instrument.

Before the introduction of higher tension modern strings it was normal practice to use softer woods for pegs on Violins. Fruitwoods were often used, Plumwood makes particularly attractive pegs, and the pegs on this Mandolin may be made of Apple wood. The harder woods were introduced more widely to cope with increased wear on the stringholes with the higher tension strings, that wouldn't apply to a Mandolin strung in the "Baroque" manner though.

Another thought is that if any of your pegholes require bushing it may be a good idea to use a particularly hard wood. Both of these instruments could have Ebony bushings quite discreetly. A hard wood (though not as hard as Ebony) more commonly used for bushings is Boxwood, which would certainly be an improvement over maple. Be sure that it is northern European Boxwood though (French and English are normally thought to be best), as there are many other species (many completely unrelated) sold as Boxwood, all of which are much softer.

Jon

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## Eugene

Thanks for your thoughts, Jon. No, I haven't had the local luthier who does pegs for hire do my mandolin yet, but he did make a set for my pending baroque guitar (being built by the grossly tardy Tom Crandall of NYC). The guitar pegs are of fabulous plum with ebony pips and are perfectly crafted. He's also the guy who is charged with retopping my vihuela (the one with the unusual lute-like pegbox) pictured above.

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## Jim Garber

Well, none of these are mine, but I was doing a comparative study of the differences in these mandolins by Umberto Ceccherini and it is amazing how few are similar in ornamentation.

I would have thought that those pickguards were manufactured for the shop but it seems like each one is different.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Nice collage, Jim. As the owner of Nos. 5 and 7 in that line-up, I can confirm that the pickguards look quite different in the flesh as well. No. 5 is a good deal more finely detailed than No. 7 and also has more pristine polished edges on the tortoiseshell, possibly as a result of having been more carefully stored and less handled. In each instance, the vine stem is silver (or "German silver") inlay and the leaves are mother of pearl. The various de Meglios and de Meglio clones have similar styles of pickguards, with the same generic vine motif, but the ones I've seen are cruder still than No. 7. I suspect that the intricacy of the inlay and the style of the soundhole surround inlay (halfway or all the way around) served as markers for the rank of the instrument in Ceccherini's list. I also suspect that all the pickguards, de Meglio as well as Ceccherini, were made in the same external workshop and that they were working from generic designs, but were fashioning at least the higher ones individually, allowing the craftsmen some leeway for artistic expression. You can add to this the frustrating lack of dates on the labels which means that we don't know how much the above represents an evolution of the pickguard or a snapshot of the model range.

As an aside, I was told last weekend that Ceccherini made various exotic 10-string and 12-string models as well (no idea of the number of courses). Anybody seen them?

Martin

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Heres the rear of the headstock of an old bowlback I got many years ago

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

And now the front, note the tuning buttons

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

Here the bowl, or lack of, must of been one heck of a party!

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

and heres the fingerboard, this must have been one beauty in its day, the only sign of a makers mark is on the neck block but its badly faded, looks like something?? New York

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## CervenySatek

Hi all,

Well, this is probably a bottom-of-the-line mandolin, but I'm posting a picture because of its unusually large bowl. The scale is 13 inches, but the length from nut to the end of the body is 19 inches. It's about 8.5 inches across, at the cant. 

it's in bad shape and has a crude bridge, but I think the deep bowl combined with the 13inch scale gives it a really interesting sound. It also has very low sustain so playing rhythm and melody and the same time sounds about as "earthy" as a mandolin can sound.

Does anyone out there know if there exists any quality bowl-backs with bowls as large as this?

The picture is of it next to a fairly standard size Washburn also posted: URL=http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=23398;st=0;r=1;&#entry  253795]here[/URL]

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## CervenySatek

and the front...

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## Bob A

I just measured my 1922 Calace and found it was about 18.5 inches from nut to end. Only 8 inches across, however. The bowl also maintains its depth for quite a distance, rather than slanting gracefully toward the neck. Strong bass response for a bowlback.

A real pity about the trainwreck, above. Looks to have been quite a nice instrument, before the dissection.

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## Martin Jonas

Looking at the last few posts in this thread, it strikes me that MANDOLINMYSTER and CervenySatek should get together: one has a working headstock with intact front-mounted tuners, but no bowl (and frankly no chance of restoring it) and the other has a lovely Washburn missing half of its front-mounted tuners. #The tuners aren't exactly the same, but close enough, and with the front-mounted system, there's no need to match up drill holes. #I would have thought swapping the tuners over should be fairly straightforward. #How about it?

Martin
PS: Having looked again at the close-ups of CervenySatek's Washburn tuners in the other thread, I think the tuners are virtually identical, with only minor differences in the engraving. I would be surprised if they weren't by the same maker. They look different on first glance, because the underlying headstock shape is different and they are therefore mounted at a different angle, but the metal pieces should be a perfect match.

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## CervenySatek

Ah, good catch Martin. That is a coincidence. What d'ya say, MANDOLINMYSTER? If you want to, send me the measurements...

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## CervenySatek

Bob A, do you happen to know if that size is typical of Calaces, modern or vintage?

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## MANDOLINMYSTER

I think at this time I will just leave the tuners on that sorry bowl-less back mandolin, besides the tuners are in pretty bad shape. I am sure you will find a set if you keep looking

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## CervenySatek

Hmm, I've never been tempted to use an emoticon until this moment    

(isn't there a crying one?)

Kidding... actually, I don't blame you at all - that headstock is slick!

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## Jim Garber

Michael:
 Are the tuners non-functional, that is, they do not turn, are missing gears and the like? If so, they may be made to work fine with some oiling anc cleaning or de-rusting. If it is just the buttons, they can easily be replaced as well, even with something pretty close. I think Stew-mac makes grained ivorid buttons. In any case, what are you going to do with a basket case such as that. I suppose you could build a bowl around it.

CervenySatek:
What is the distance from center-to-center of the posts of the tuners that you do have? You may still be able to rig something up. Also what is the height of the posts. 

Jim

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## CervenySatek

Hi Jim, the post height looks like 7/16 inches from the plate surface (is that what you meant?). The peg-center spacing looks consistently 29/32.

Jonathan

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## Bob A

I can't tell you whether the size of the Calace is typical. The instrument was intended to be an orchestra model, I'm told, which would imply a construction goal perhaps more bassy and less cutting in tone than a soloist's instrument. 

I have a mandolin made by Rafaele De Santino which is supposedly made according to Calace specs by a luthier who worked in Calace's shop. It is quite a different animal, in design and sound.

Vkiolaphides has a modern Calace, a low-end instrument, which he would probably measure for you if asked. He usuallly posts in the classical section if you want to PM him.

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## David M.

This one looks identical to mandonucs' mando. The case looks the same, except mine is in much worse shape.

I got this last week from my wife's grandma. Somebody has played it alot based on the stains on the back of the neck.

I just strung it last night and am having trouble w/one of the G tuners. It binds in one spot.

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## Markelberry

Okay heres my George Bauer I just purchased busted,this little beauty will live again!!

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## Markelberry

and now the painfull part

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## Markelberry

OUCH!!!!

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## Markelberry

Anyone have any ideas what this is about?

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## Markelberry

da bowl

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## Markelberry

this is nice,anyway its not in hand yet itreally struck me as a nice piece worthy of rescue. I cant wait till it plays again.

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## Jim Garber

Markelberry:
It looks like someone attempted reptile dentistry style repair job on that one. Are you planning to do work on that Bauer yourself? If you are a good repair person and are willing to work on these, you may have some work from some of us on this board. 

Jim

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## Markelberry

No Im not a repairman. I was lokking on frets.com an it looked like there was no damage that could not be repaired. It looks like the break at the nut could be fixed. Im not sure what happened to the peghead overlay or the piece of metal attached on the reverse. I do know a repairman that is good, Im really hoping it can be fixed I thought it looked to good to let it die, maybe just to me. It sounds by your comment it looks like a pretty hopeless case,please someone tell me theres hope.

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## Martin Jonas

I'm sure it _can_ be fixed. Whether it's economical to do so is a different story. I don't know anything about Bauer bowlbacks, although it's certainly a pretty-looking thing. On valuable vintage instruments, this break would certainly be fixed; on a generic bowlback, it's less likely that one would bother, as there are plenty out there in better condition. I don't know which catefory yours fit in.

I also agree with Jim that it looks as if there has already been a previous extensive repair, and not a good one. The engraved metal plate on the headstock is of course the original back plate of the enclosed tuners, and is very pretty. However, the bolted-on triangle (is it metal?) does not look original and may be some attempt at externally bracing a cracked headstock. It looks like your headstock suffered two catastrophic breaks: the first one was along the line of the lowest pair of tuning posts, and is probably what prompted the previous repair, and the second one broke the neck at the nut. It's possible that the second break was a consequence of the weakening of the headstock following the first one. Your problem is going to be that you'll need to fix both breaks to get that headstock structurally sound again. As I said, it can be done, but it won't be cheap if you go to a luthier and it won't be easy if you want to try it yourself.

Martin

----------


## Eugene

That is awesome, Markelberry. How did you come to attribute this to George Bauer? I have seen some other characters offer make some very dubious attributions to Bauer. Instruments in Bauer's own hands are state of the art (like this mandolin), but his name later became one of those transitory, multi-mass-producer brands (I've seen some low end L&H mandolins labeled Bauer).

...And Ouch indeed!

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## guitharsis

Just got my DeMeglio back from the luthier. He made a new brige and a string downholder. 

www.guitarlab.org/mando2.jpg


It looks and plays great! He commented on how much louder it is with the new bridge.

Doreen

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## Eugene

I really _really_ want to see, but that link seems bad.

----------


## Eugene

...And I'm still waiting for mandolooter's new mandolin to appear here, mandolooter!

----------


## Eugene

Here's a mandolino Bresciano made by Bavassano e Figlio of Naples, ca. 1890s that I bought from a French dealer in late 2004.

----------


## Eugene

It's a little unusual in sporting a full violin scroll to decorate the pegbox (most I've seen have carried a partial scroll with a square finial).

----------


## Eugene

In profile:

----------


## Eugene

The maple bowl carries some decent figure and the rosewood section of the clasp offers an interesting contrast.

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## Eugene

There is some simple, decent scrollwork to the clasp's maple section.

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## Eugene

In case anybody is interested in the label:

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## Eugene

Currently, this is not in my possession. #It is off to Ben Wilcox's shop to get a top crack tended and lower the action a bit. #The action correction will probably be achieved by shaving the tie block of the ebony bridge to an appropriate height. #The wire strings are gone in favor of gut. #Thanks to Richard for being kind enough to receive this in France and carry it to the US for me.

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## Martin Jonas

> I really _really_ want to see, but that link seems bad.


Try these:

Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
Photo 5
Photo 6
Photo 7

Martin

----------


## Eugene

It seems to have been a temporary outage at guitarlab.org, because they're all coming up beautifully now. Congrats, Doreen! I don't recall, what was the state of the original bridge that required replacement: was it damaged or missing? If the former, did you keep the original? the replacement looks like rosewood. Can you confirm?

----------


## guitharsis

Thanks for posting, Martin. 

Eugene, I purchased the mandolin in February from a private owner. He had it since the 60's. Ebay Item #3779624019.

The bridge on the mandolin was useable but very plain. The original was included with the purchase but was damaged beyond repair. The replacement is rosewood. It was quite a challenge for him to make it.

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's a few pics of my Demeglio circa 1901. Front.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Side showing the sound ports.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's the bridge and tailpiece cover.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here's a close-up of the bridge showing the characteristic brass rod for saddle.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the headstock showing also the zero fret and brass nut. I had never examined one in person so this was interesting esp the way the nut was made.

Jim

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## Eugene

Very nice! The spruce looks practically new.

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## Jim Garber

The top is in very good shape. There is some slight buzzing on the a string around the 5th fret or so, but i think that that can be remedied.

Here is a closeup of the zero fret with the brass nut. It must add something to the sound as well as the brass saddle.

Jim

----------


## prayerbone

hi,very sweet jim!!i think my pollmans going to have a sound port a crack  aj

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## Martin Jonas

Jim --

That one looks really nice. My Rinaldi/de Meglio also has the same brass nut/zero fret arrangement where the two parts are separate pieces set next to each other into a single slot. On mine, they can be taken out without effort when the strings are off, which would make for an extremely simple left-hand conversion. On the Ceccherinis, on the other hand, it's only a single metal piece fulfilling both functions, and much more intricately worked.

The Rinaldi also has dark-stained tuner buttons, but they don't look as classy as yours. Yours look like stained bone; mine are chunkier and are some primitive plastic, i think, possibly bakelite (when was that invented?). Scratch plate and tailpiece cover are exactly like on yours, but the bridge is a bit less finely worked. I have a rosewood fretboard; yours looks like ebony. The wood in your top looks great; mine is much wider-grained.

Incidentally, I will get my Rinaldi back later this week when my mother comes over from Germany. As I've mentioned before, the top on the Rinaldi has been refinished by somebody in what looks like a cheap orange wood stain (not a proper instrument finish, I think), whereas the orginals have an unfinished look, like yours and like one of my Ceccherinis (the other has a very fine wax-like finish). What do you think -- are they actually unfinished, or is it some very thin clear finish? I'm thinking of stripping the inappropriate finish off the Rinaldi and leave the wood open, but I'm unsure of how to do that. It looks too set to be stripped purely mechanically and I'm reluctant to get out the white spirit.

Martin

----------


## guitharsis

Beautiful DeMegliio, Jim! It looks to be in great condition. Enjoy!

Doreen

----------


## onthefiddle

Martin is your Rinaldi's soundboard varnished in the same manner as this one? If so, it looks like there is a good chance that the finish is original. 

Incidentally, personally I don't think that these instruments are all from the same source, the de Meglio model was an extremely popular one for some time though, and there were some excellent makers using it. Giovanni de Meglio obviously felt the pressure from copies enough to make quite strong declarations regarding the originality of his instruments on some of his labels. It's a similair situation to that existing with arched top mandolins in more recent times. 

Does anyone know if any particular player was associated with de Meglio? Or was their reputation founded solely on the quality of their instruments?

Jon

----------


## Martin Jonas

Thanks Jon -- that's an interesting link. Yes, indeed, the finish on my Rinaldi looks like that, so it may well be original after all for that particular incarnation of the de Meglio construction. My Rinaldi is in very much better condition than that one, though, and I'm glad to say it doesn't have such a horribly botched bridge. I also have an aluminium decoration on the headstock which the Ebay one doesn't and mine still has its string guard. But otherwise, it's a close match. The Rinaldi has a rosewood fretboard whereas I think instruments with the de Meglio label have ebony (as do Ceccherinis). Strange to see that the Rinaldi label on the Ebay instrument is pasted in at an odd angle: it looks to me like it may have fallen off and reglued at some stage. It's not like that one mine.

My mother has arrived today from Germany, so I now have the Rinaldi and both Ceccherinis all in the same place for the first time.

Martin

----------


## prayerbone

hi well my pollman came today..pics to follow they wont link today ..aj

----------


## Eugene

I'm holding you to that promise, prayerbone!

----------


## mandolooter

Eugene...drum-roll.... finally, here it is!
No name or makers info, 36 ribs, very full, crisp and sweet sound, easy to play, but just turned out to not be my cup of tea. Way too hard to hold on to whilst standing up and doin a chop chord at my local bluegrass jam! I was very pleasently surprised at the volume and tone of it tho, being a non-carved top and all. Has since found a wonderful home with a friend who gives it the workout it needs. It did remind me of my belly tho...Im a bowl-front!

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## Jim Garber

> No name or makers info, 36 ribs, very full, crisp and sweet sound, easy to play, but just turned out to not be my cup of tea.


I don't recall the prior dicsussion on this one. 

Looks very Lyon-&-Healical to me. Shape of the pickguard. The pickguard nlay resembles a pic in a catalog I have of a style 607 tho that would have fewer ribs. There is a style 606 described as having 35 ribs but there is no picture. Circa 1909-13.

It would be good to get larger pics esp of the headstock mto tell for sure.

Jim

----------


## Eugene

Thank you, mandolooter. Were there any justice, you would have been struck by lightening in even thinking on trying to "chop" this lovely creature. I am sorry your brief tryst didn't bear fruit.

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## Jim Garber

I bought one of these Riccas a few years ago and have been trying to find parts for it for some time, notably a tailpiece cover and functional bridge. I got thise new one today but it is too nice just to use for parts. Has a nice engraved tailpiece and the remains of a bridge. The new one is a style 4 and the fancier one is a style 4 1/2. Both have rosewood bowls with 23 ribs. The 4 1/2 has some tulipwood trim on the sides of the bowl.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Closer view of the bodies.

----------


## Jim Garber

The bridge is interesting. It seems to have an arch to it, possibly some sort of compensation. The ends are broken off, but I can see that same slightly arched outline on the tops of both mandolins.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the elusive tailpiece cover. I have seen a few other variations with the same monogram.

Jim

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## onthefiddle

Jim - I'm sure that I have seen a modern bridge curved in a similar manner to your Ricca. I have a feeling that it may have been on a Sobell Bouzouki, though I can't see anything in a very quick scan of his website. I'll let you know if I come across anything more.

Jon

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## Martin Jonas

I currently have all four of the bowlbacks that I've got off Ebay in the past year and a bit at home, including the two that were with my mother for the last eight months. So, I thought it's time for a couple of family photos.

Martin

From left:

Umberto Ceccherini
Carlo Rinaldi
Giuseppe Vinaccia
Umberto Ceccherini

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## Martin Jonas

And the backs, nicely showing off the contrast of the maple bowl of the Vinaccia.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Here's my recently acquired 1920s Calace e Figlio. I call this style the "hole-in-the-head." It will need some restoration before it is fully playable.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Calace - back view

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Calace -- body detail. I think that the armrest is original but the bridge and possibly the tuners are not.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Closeup of the bridge. Those who have similar mandolins with original bridges... I would love to compare.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Calace -- pegheads views.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here's a view of the Calace label. There is no date written but a round wax seal. It looks like there is a monogram on the seal but I can;t make it out.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Congrats, Jim! May you enjoy your new baby in good health and cheer!

It is interesting/curious how the Calace design has mutated over the decades; I would even hazard to say that it has been "Romanized" a tad: the stubby, bulbous body-shape has been elongated, the neck thinned down, the fingerboard narrowed down... veeery interesting!

There has been much discussion about the QUALITATIVE evolution of the family firm according to most accounts, sadly, a downward one but very little (to my knowledge) has been discussed about the QUANTITATIVE (i.e. geometrical, acoustical, specificational) changes that have occurred over time.

It would be truly fascinating to see this process, the body of these mandolins evolving, _in statu mutandi_. Dissertation, anyone?

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## Bob A

While I've not handled a modern Calace, I will second Victor's wishes for hard data on dimensions etc. Alex Timmerman's book has wonderful drawings of the structure and size of the many instruments therein; many are guitars, and some ancient mandolins. One could wish for something similar encompassing the Neapolitan type instruments from 1875 to date. Descriptions of various models by the makers of note would also be very desireable.

I find my 1922 Calace to be stout and stoutly-built; it is not what I would have expected, given my experience with the much more lightly-constructed instruments I've played, e.g. a Giuseppe Vinaccia from 1890s, or a Salsedo from 1895. While my preference has been toward light construction, the Calace is a fine instrument that speaks with authority and gravitas; it has a strong bass and midrange, and less treble that is usual with the others.

Howzabout a Macarthur grant (or something similar)for someone to do the research and get it printed up?

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## Jim Garber

Interesting few days: I have had two friends send me jpegs of incredible mandolins. First up, Ian asked me to post a few of this 1887 Salsedo. 

Ian says: 



> his is an 1887 fluted mandolin by Luigi Salsedo. The entire neck and head, as you can see from the photos, are covered in TT Shell, even the bridge is made entirely from TT shell and the nut is mother of pearl. German Silver is the material of the "enclosed back plate" of the headThe case itself was obviously made for this mandolin and appears to be from solid oak.
> 
> Apparently this mandolin was given to him, our pupil, (as a gift) last year, by someone who has had it in a cupboard for the past 40 years.


Jim

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## Jim Garber

Closeup of the scratchplate, soundhole and bridge.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Peghead

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Bottom of the bowl.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

What follows are some pics of an 1899 Vinaccia from a private colllection, equal to the Salsedo in ornateness. Both have the necks sheathed in tortoise shell.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Soundhole area.

Jim

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## Bob A

Sweet Salsedo! Way too much deco for me, but I wouldn't mind finding another less adorned example. I really really like Salsedo mandolins.

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## Jim Garber

The Vinaccia bowl.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Vinaccia Peghead

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Vinaccia Tailpiece... ornate enough for you?

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Here are some photos of the Carlo Loveri that I bought recently for one of our ensemble members. One of the ebony tuner buttons was missing and another one broke when I touched it, so I asked Jon to make me a new set of eight ebony buttons. Beautiful work, and a great match! I only fitted two of them and left the six remaining originals on for the time being (squaring the pegs and the holes is a lot of work indeed, although it worked out nicely in the end). As all of them have cracks, the owner may well need to replace them sooner or later with the six spares that Jon made.

Otherwise, this is a sound well-made mando with a very nice strong tone, intonates well, balanced across the courses, straight neck, no structural problems. Top-quality spruce for the soundboard, too. Like my Ceccherinis, it has an unusually long scale length for an Italian bowlback, at 345mm. I think Loveri can go into the list of builders to look out for in quality bowlbacks!

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Here is a side-on view.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

And the headstock with the ebony tuner buttons. Interesting shape: the Gibson crowd would call this a snakehead, but it easily predates them by twenty years at least.

Martin

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## RSW

Very lovely headstock, the position of the strings are perfect for avoiding them rubbing against each other and making tuning difficult. I like Loveri's instruments exept for the use of the raised pick or scratch plate, often seen in De Meglio's work. How do they sound?

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## Martin Jonas

Richard -- yes, the headstock shape is great for having the strings straight and out of each others' way. An example of convergent evolution no doubt: I've never understood why Gibson started with the paddlehead instead of the snakehead.

The Loveri pickguard does look like the de Meglio pickguard, like them it's laid on, not laid in. However, it's black celluloid rather than tortoiseshell and it's much thinner (raised only about 1mm) and therefore less likely to interfere with the pick.

I've put new Lenzners on, and it sounds very nice. A bit brittle, still, but I've found that to be the rule for bowlbacks that haven't been played for a few decades. I expect it'll develop over a period of a few weeks to months. It does have good volume, good balance and a full complex tone, so I'm pretty confident about its merits. Sounds a lot better than Carlo M.'s soundclips of a Loveri (but then none of his soundclips sound good to my ears, including his Vinaccias and Calaces).

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few pics of my newly acquired 1921 Calace. I am not sure of the model number but I would think somewhere around 24. 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Closeup of the body.

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## Jim Garber

I esp like the contrast of the rosewood cap over the maple ribs.

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## Eugene

Groovy. You remain an enviable dude, Jim.

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## Linda Binder

I second that.
--Linda

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## Mark Levesque

Wow.
My eyes actually popped out of my head on that one.
Congratulations, Jim!

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## Alex Timmerman

That one look great Jim! I´ll bet it will sound good as well! Congrats!


Best, 

Alex

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## JGWoods

That's a beauty. What are the holes for just in front of the bridge?

best
jgwoods

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## guitharsis

Just gorgeous. #Congrats, Jim!

Doreen

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## Jim Garber

> That's a beauty. What are the holes for just in front of the bridge?


Yes, that is the question that all of us are asking. Some sort of extra acoustic resonance or some mechanism that works in conjunction with the bridge. 

I wish that Raffaele, Jr. were more available online so we can ask him the many questions about his family's instruments.

I am anxious to get this thing strung up. I may make a trip to my local crafts supply megastore and se if they have some brass rod for the saddle. I will string it up with Calace dolce (natch!) strings and report back.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few pics of that Roman style Bruno. This was made in Torino.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

The neck is prominently v-shaped.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Body detail with narrow radiussed fretboard.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Interesting label. I am still trying to figure out whether this is at all related to the Bruno of the US. None of those resemble this one.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

I love these tuner buttons.

Jim

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## PaulD

NICE! I really like the rosette and pickgaurd inlays. Whare are the tuner buttons... I can't tell if they're tortoise/pseudo-tortoise or wood? 

Paul Doubek

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## Jim Garber

I think they are bone but either stained or aged with time. I have similar ones on my Demeglio.

Jim

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## mandoman15

on some bowlbacks just above teh bridge, there are two holes that appear to right through the top, what are these and what is their purpose?

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## Bob A

No one seems to know. 

On some bowlbacks, there are holes in the sides. Their pupose is also obscure; some folks think they act as a sort of low-tech stage monitor, enabling the performer better to hear what he's playing. Some folks use them to humidify the mandolin, exhaling into the body a few times to get it tightened up.

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## Jim Garber

I got the Goodwill 1902 Vinaccia (erroneously, I hope, described as a french mandolin).

Here is the front and back. The top has a couple of cracks, one pretty serious and with some warpage. I am hoping that it can be fixed to playing condition.

It is also missing that triangular piece of pearl on the back at the top of the neck.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

The maple bowl is in pretty good shape, tho might need a few cracks reinforced.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Another view of the back

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is one of the label.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Not so sure about the originality of the bridge. Does anyone else have a similar era Vinaccia and have pics of the birdge on that one. I would think it would be more the style with the dovetailed bone insert. This one just has a bone glued in. I have a feeling it is a more recent addition.

Jim

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## Bill Snyder

Jim,
I hope that you can get it in playable condition without have to go to heroic (expensive) measures. 
i like your photos - I wish that Goodwill would start posting more/better pictures of instruments. I know that there have been some that I might have bid on or bid more on if I could have seen the instrument better.

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## MML

What is this Goodwill?? did I miss something? Oh yeah
very nice bowl back Jim, I really like the maple ribs, good luck with the resoration

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## Eugene

Very nice yet again, Jim. Carry on.

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## Martin Jonas

Lovely Vinaccia. As I have already said on the basis of the Goodwill pictures, the maple bowl on this one is very similar indeed to my Giuseppe Vinaccia, although I think yours has a bit more figure and fewer surface scratches than mine. The little MOP triangle was also missing on mine, but as on yours, one could still see where is originally went, and Jon replaced it. The bridge doesn't look much like mine, so you may be right that it's a reproduction. Good luck with the repairs of the top cracks! Do you think you need to correct the warpage to get the crack to close up? Considering the low price you paid, you should still come out well ahead even after repairs.

Martin

----------


## Vinaccia

1920 Calace. A very nice sounding, responsive and powerful instrument.

----------


## Vinaccia

Her back side.

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## Jim Garber

Jonathan:
Was that one that Mike Schroeder owned? it looks familiar.

My rosewood Calace is one of those hole-in-the-head ones. I am currrenttly getting it set up for playing. Do you have a closeup of the back of the neck where that pearl triangle is inlaid? Mine looks like it had some reptile dentist repairs done on it. At some point I would love to have it restored in full. 

I am also getting my other maple-bowl Calace set up for playing. After that I will send off the Vinaccia.

Jim

----------


## Vinaccia

Hopefully this photo is more clear. I have no other photos and have yet to take the digital camera plunge. The more I play this Calace, the more I am impressed with the instrument.

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## PaulD

> What is this Goodwill?? did I miss something? Oh yeah
> very nice bowl back Jim, I really like the maple ribs, good luck with the resoration


I second MML's question: what is Goodwill? I'm familiar with the charity thriftstore/second had store by that name... is that what you're talking about? I didn't know they were online. 

Thanks for the great pics of he Vinaccia and Calace. I'm not much of a bowl-head due to lack of time and funds for the level of MAS in which I would like to indulge, but they are beautiful instruments. I still need to get back to work on the Lyon & Healy so I'll have a player. In retrospect I probably paid too much for it for the work it needs, but it will be good experience and I think it will be a decent player.

pd

----------


## Jim Garber

Jonathan:
Does that Calace have the same bridge as my 1921 (see below)? It should have a saddle (not in the photo) which should be about 1/16" (1.5mm) diameter brass rod.

Mine also has two rosewood "tabs" glued to the top to indicate bridge position. 

Jim

----------


## Bill Snyder

> what is Goodwill? I'm familiar with the charity thriftstore/second had store by that name... is that what you're talking about? I didn't know they were online.


They are. Not generally the best of instruments, but occasionally they have something worth bidding on.

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## Jim Garber

yes, that Vinaccia was a real fluke. Someone must have had it hanging on their wall for years and donated to Goodwill. It was listed as a French mandolin. I suppose someone could have come across it in the store but who knows. The cracks might have scared some folks.

Jim

----------


## Vinaccia

[/QUOTE Does that Calace have the same bridge as my 1921 (see below)? It should have a saddle (not in the photo) which should be about 1/16" (1.5mm) diameter brass rod.
Mine also has two rosewood "tabs" glued to the top to indicate bridge position]

Hi Jim,

Sorry for delay. Just saw your question. Yes is the same, but mine has the metal rod (brass?)saddle insert. #If you are ever in the area you are welcome to come check it out. I will try and get you better photos to help your rehab project.

Jonathan

----------


## Jim Garber

I had an email correspondence with Michael Gresham who also had a similar one given to him, so I got the specs for the brass rod. I ordered three thicknesses of those from a hobby supply place and have lots now. If anyone needs any LMK. I will be glad to supply you.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

I just got this one today: my bargain-basement, no-name Italian-looking bowlback in the vaguely Vinaccia style. No label but decently made and light in weight. Unusual since I think that the bowl is mahogany. Anyone recognize that headstock? The cap sort of has similar lines to my Vinaccia but with not much of the quality of workmanship.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here's a side view of the bowl.

Jim

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## jim simpson

I just picked up one of these bowlbacks at an auction. The neck is really long on mine! Okay so it's a Saz. The funny thing is there's no sound-hole. I have asked the question before if anyone ever tried making a mandolin w/o a sound-hole but no responses. If it works with a Saz, then why not?

----------


## Jim Garber

Not having played a saz ... are there really no soundholes? 

BTW I believe that the saz is the grandfather of the bouzouki or at least granduncle. In any case, it is certainly a bowlback.

Do you play this instrument? What sort(s) of music do you play on it? I recall David Lindley playing "Groundhog" on the saz.

BTW this one seems to have a soundhole on the bottom.



Jim

----------


## jim simpson

Are you sure the end pin didn't just fall out? Haha
Mine doesn't have any sound holes at all. I think this is common on the long neck versions, don't know about the shorter necks. I read that they evolved from the lute. I figure I'll just let the instrument inspire me. I had a sitar once and found it too challenging to play plus my legs hurt when I tried to sit the way you're supposed to when playing. I like the way the frets are just tied nylon thread. I guess this would allow you to temper the instrument (or lose your temper). I have to make a bridge for mine as it was missing. Mine is also an 8-string, I think most are 7-string. Lindley is how I knew it was a Saz when I spotted it.

----------


## PaulD

I have one that looks like that (4 string, tied frets, soundhole where the peghead should be like JGarber's pic). I was told it was an Oud (sp?) by the woman that sells them... she also plays in a band that plays... I guess you'd call it Arabic or Egyptian music. I've seen other Ouds though, and they looked different so maybe mine is a Saz as well. I've never played it, but my daughter has always liked noodling on it.

Paul Doubek

----------


## Eugene

Oud is a short-necked lute. If yours looks like the above and didn't have a soundhole in the soundboard, it's a saz.

----------


## Martin Jonas

I've just got my recently-bought Embergher back from Jon (who closed a few open seams in the bowl) and have got around to take some photos. This is a 1915 Tipo A student model, maple bowl, ebony inlaid scratchplate. It's in absolutely outstanding condition, perfect action without any adjustments necessary, tuners working as smoothly as the day they were made, soundboard perfectly level, unwarped and uncracked. I feel like I made a little trip to Rome to visit Signore Embergher at Via Belsiana N. 7 and pick up my new instrument off the shelf.

Plays beautifully, too, with new Lenzner strings. Describing tone is always next to impossible, but it's a complex and full tone, louder and less delicate than my Vinaccia but broadly similar in its nature (at least compared to the much brighter Ceccherini). Outstanding playability with the chunky V-shaped neck, radiused fretboard and narrow nut.

Martin

----------


## Martin Jonas

The maple bowl.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Headstock with Embergher stamp.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

I love those tuner buttons, although I have no idea what material they are (stained bone? horn? wood?).

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

An interesting one for luthiers: the discussion pops up occasionally whether the bridge should be perpendicular to the soundboard or slanted so that it bisects the string break angle. As can be seen here, Embergher clearly supported the latter option.

Martin

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## Linda Binder

Greetings Martin, 
Your mandolin is just beautiful! Enjoy!
--Linda
PS Do you really use a nylon pick!!

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## Martin Jonas

Another view of the bridge, showing the ingenious butterfly design used by Embergher to ensure better bridge fit. With the cut-out in the centre, the bridge flexes under tension to adapt to the soundboard shape.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Scratchplate, soundhole and label.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Last one: close-up of soundhole and extension.

Linda: yes, I do use a nylon pick on my bowlbacks. I find it suits my playing technique the most. I've been trying a lot of other materials and gauges, but keep coming back to these, either in 0.88mm or 1.0mm. Incidentally, Alison Stephens used to use nylon picks in much the same gauge (though different shape) on her Embergher 5-bis until very recently, although when I last met her in June, she had just switched to the German rubber plectra.

Martin

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## Linda Binder

Great photos! It's a treat to get such a good look at a fine instrument. Now I'm curious how a nylon pick would sound on my Pandini. I don't think I've ever tried one. I'm using a Tortis brand pick which I like but I think I'll experiment....
--Linda

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## Jim Garber

Martin:
Congratulations on this one.

I love the simplicity of design of these Emberghers. Still it reminds me of that antique dealer who was selling that one near me that William Petit won. She had brought it to a local music store and they told her it was a wall hanger. 

Jim

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## Jonathan Rudie

Congratulations Martin. That is one very elegant looking mandolin. Enjoy!

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## Fliss

I've seen Martin's Embergher in the flesh, and have now had the opportunity to play it, and it is a truly beautiful mandolin, with a lovely sound. #

However, as a new bowlback owner I'm now taking the opportunity to post some pre-restoration pictures of my 1902 De Meglio which I bought on E-bay a few days ago. #Hopefully, at some stage in the not too far distant future I'll be able to post some post-restoration photos! It's going to need some work, particularly on the crack, so I'm going to contact a local luthier and see what can be done. #

I took it to visit Martin this afternoon, as a result of which it now has the nut and zero fret cleaned and put back the right way round, and a new set of Lenzner strings (thanks Martin!) so it is now perfectly playable even in this condition. #It has a nice tone and a lovely low action.

I'm posting some thumbnails below, you can click on them to see the full size image.







Fliss

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## Fliss

A few more pics...







Regards
Fliss

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## Eugene

I love the de Meglio aesthetic. Thanks, Fliss. For some reason, three of the images seem to be missing.

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## Fliss

Thanks Eugene. I've attempted to replace the links, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hoping it's worked. 

Fliss

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## Eugene

It seems to have worked. I love the headstock. What rep are you planning to tackle with this?

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## Fliss

The most important repair is the crack in the top, which you should be able to see next to the E strings in the fourth pic. I'll also replace the bridge with a more traditional one.

The rest is cosmetic, but depending on how affordable it is I'd like to get the edging repaired - there are a couple of places where pieces are missing, and other places where it's very uneven. I'd also like to get the two small areas of veneer on the headstock replaced where it lookis to have chipped off (at the top corners.) 

There are also some small chips out of the scratchplate, which I'm not so bothered about, but would be nice to get fixed if it can be done reasonably easily. 

One of the easiest things to replace should be the small piece of dark red leather which should beon the headstock just above the nut - there are some small grooves which indicate where it should be. I might also file down the ends of the frets which are sticking out a little. 

Fliss

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## Eugene

Sorry, by "rep" I'd meant "repertoire."

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## Fliss

Oops, sorry! 

To be honest, I don't really know. My main focus, what I really want to do with the mandolin, is to play Irish music, for which my Garrison flat top should be ideal. But I've recently started practicing with the ensemble that Martin plays with, and they play a mixture of material (most of which seems really difficult to me at the moment!) so I'm enjoying learning more and getting to know some more different types of music. 

So I'm planning to just enjoy the De Meglio and explore what it can do, and to enjoy the process of restoring it a bit in the process. At the moment, I must confess, I'm practicing jigs, polkas and the odd hornpipe on it! 

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

I like my Demeglio for many types of music. I think it has a great sound for folk styles as well as classical. I like the sustain from the metal saddle. 

I still think of Martin's quote that there seems to be a "party in the bowl" -- sort of a built-in echo chamber.

Jim

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## Fliss

That "party in the bowl" quote is great, very descriptive.

I am enjoying the sound of the De Meglio, I love the more mellow sound and sustain of my flat top, but the De Meglio whilst having a brighter tone, does also have very good sustain, and I'm enjoying having two different sounds to choose from. #

I still haven't got the right technique to keep it from sliding down while I'm playing it, I need to invest in a chammy leather!

Today, I took it to a luthier in nearby Port Sunlight, Matthew J Bascetta, who does restoration of vintage mandolins - here's a link to his website #http://www.mjbluthier.co.uk/index.htm #Although he lives 20 minutes from me in the North West of England, he's actually an American! #

The work is going to take around 3 - 4 weeks. #He's promised to take progress photos so I can see how the repairs are actually done, and also so I can post them here. 

Fliss

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## Fliss

I finally got my De Meglio back from the luthier, so I'm going to have a go at posting some pics of the mandolin as it looks now and some of the work in progress!

Here's the mando:

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## Fliss

That didn't work, I'll try again. Scott, I'm following different instructions for posting pics from the ones I follwed previously, so I'll apologise in advance if this goes wrong as I'm not used to doing it this way.

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## Fliss

Do you like the fact that it's in a bowl back chair??

Here's a close up of the repaired edging:

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## Fliss

And the bowl...

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## Fliss

Here's the head

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## Fliss

Work in progress (sorry, out of sequence!) - wrapped in a plastic bag with some sponges inside in an attempt to persuade the crack to go back together. #You can see he also took the tuners off in order to clean them

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## Fliss

And finally... the luthier's own system for holding cleats tightly in place, using tuners and wire

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## Tully

Bowlbacks really perk up my imagination.

I picture a bard sitting lazily under a tree. His plumed-hat tilted forward over his eyes, lightly picking away at his trusty mandolin, a satisfied grin on his face. 
Life is good.

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## Keith Erickson

Live at the City of the Rocks State Park outside of Deming, New Mexico...    hee, hee...

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## Jim Garber

Keith:
 What bowlback are you playing there? Have you posted larger pics here or elsewhere?

Jim

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## Keith Erickson

Howdy Jim,

This was the Suzuki that picked up in Tucson back in February.

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## Keith Erickson

Front View...

Hi there Jim,

Yes I posted a couple of these pics a few months ago. I just can't quite remember where. When I find the thread, I'll post the link.

Catch ya later

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## Keith Erickson

Jim,

I found this thread that I posted back in March on my bowlback.

Enjoy

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## John Craton

I've posted these on other threads, but might as well use up the bandwidth. On the left and middle is my 1950s era Herwiga Solist, and on the right an 1890s French Euterpia.

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## Martin Jonas

I've just splashed out and got myself a nice shiny Ferrari... Fratelli Ferrari, that is. This one sort of found me and begged me to take it in: it belonged to an elderly lady who used to play in our ensemble a couple of decades ago. She herself never played this one, but someone gave it to her long ago and she never got around to getting it set up for playing. So, she was looking for a good home and someone who might be able to bring it back to life. What could I say...

I'm not a big fan of rope binding, but this is a rather attractive instrument. It needs a new bridge, of course (the current one is just a block of ebony that someone shoved under the strings in the wrong place), but other than that, I don't think there's much wrong with it. A bit of cleaning and I should be on the way.

Quite a lightly-built instrument, with a very pronouned arch to the top, more even than my Ceccherini. The neck, soundboard and bowl seem exceptionally sound, with only the cosmetic issue of some missing MOP/tortoiseshell segments from the binding.

I need another bowl like a hole in the head, but I really could not turn down this poor orphan.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Not particularly close grain, but completely crack free with not a trace of sinking and perfect action.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

The side view may show the somewhat unusual shape of the bowl: this one is much more angular than the other Neapolitan bowls I have. This also shows the very high arch.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Last picture of the Ferrari: here's the back.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

The same elderly lady also owns this Stridente. Although in really rather good condition, it didn't appeal much to me, as it seemed rather heavily built. The Gibson tailpiece looks odd, the bridge is also non-original, the top looks refinished and the frets have been somewhat clumsily levelled with little or no dressing afterwards. Nevertheless, a well-made mandolin that is structurally completely sound. I anybody else thinks this is his or her heart's desire, I may be able to arrange something...

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

As I had my camera with me at our ensemble rehearsal yesterday, I also took the opportunity to photograph this unique bowlback built in 1991 by our ensemble member John Parr, who has been using this as his principal instrument ever since. #It's very nicely made, especially for an amateur-built instrument, and he gets a great tone out of it (when I try, it sounds rather unresponsive, but I guess he knows better how to treat it).

It's nice woods all around, but the most unusual design feature is the fixed bridge which is carved from out of the spruce of the soundtable, with only a thin bone saddle constituting the "bridge" proper. #Intonation can be adjusted by shifting the saddle alone.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Here's that bridge closer up.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

And a side view.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Back.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

That bridge arrangement is very strange indeed, Martin. Is it actually carved out of the top or is it glued onto the top? 

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Actually carved out of the top.

Martin

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## Eugene

Weird-o-rama.

...And thanks for the Ferrari tale. I have a lead on a Ferrari that I've been contemplating.

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## Martin Jonas

As I've mentioned down in the bowlbacks of note thread in the classical forum, I've just picked up a Ceccherini 10-string bowlback from Ebay. I thought it might be a five-course instrument, but as it turns out it's four courses with 2-2-3-3 configuration, triples on the trebles. It's the same size as an eight string, with a very slightly wider fretboard and a slightly chunkier neck. Not wide enough for conversion to five courses, so I decided to set it up as an eight string. That turned out to be surprisingly straightforward. The nut spacings were fine if one just omits the middle string of the triple courses. The bridge needed some surgery anyway, as one of the bridge wings was missing, as were all of the ebony string spacers. As I had to do new spacers anyway, I made them for eight-string spacing instead. The string hooks don't quite align with the new spacings, but it's not a big problem.

So, now it's an eight string with two spare tuners and a sturdier neck: both things that are handy in a vintage bowlback where neck strength is a notorious problem and where tuners often pack up and are difficult to replace (these tuners are all in excellent working condition, though). The sturdier neck gave me the chance to string it up with a slightly heavier gauge than I would normally with vintage bowlbacks: I put Optima Goldins on.

No structural issues: the neck is entirely straight, no top cracks and nothing wrong with the bowl except for a slight separation that is stable and doesn't need attention. Action was 2.2mm at the 12th fret with the original bridge height. That's entirely playable, indeed better than any of my other bowlbacks when I got them except the Embergher. I've taken it down to a bit under 2mm now, but it's nothing dramatic.

Lovely tone, lovely intonation. Similar to the other one, but by no means identical.

Here are some photos. First up, my new Ceccherini next to my trusty eight-string. As can be seen, they are fairly similar in the level of decoration and the intricacy of the inlays. Both have Ceccherini's unique double top. The soundboard of my new one is a bit more worn, with some superficial scratches, and is much darker because of exposure to light.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

The new (top) and old (bottom) Ceccherini from the side. Same bowl shape, but one can see the sturdier neck of the new one, which also has a slightly lighter colour and (strangely) one stave fewer -- 15 instead of 16.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Here is the pickguard, label and bridge.

The inlay style of this one is more Art Nouveau than the other one, which suggests to me a slightly later date. Very nice silver and MOP inlay work,as is normal for Ceccherini. The tortoiseshell is a bit more cloudy than the other one, again probably because of exposure to light.

If you look closely, you see that the last segment of the bridge wing on the treble side is a replacement -- I carved it freehand and it does not quite match the original. The narrow waists between the "nodes" on the bridge make working on it a bit tricky. Again looking closely, the string hooks behind the bridge are wider for the treble courses, to hold down three instead of two string. The A string hook is a bit in the way now, because of the altered string spacing, but it's fine just taking the string wide of the hook.

Different label from the normal: this one is all in English and says:

"Constructed in the Atelier of Umberto Ceccherini, Naples. And sold by the Sole Consignees - Alban Voigt & Co., London, E.C."

It's signed by Umberto in red ink across the label (same signature as on the other one) and -- uniquely -- has a serial number: No. 2360. No idea whether these numbers are any indication of the number of instruments he made -- none of the other Ceccherinis I've seen has them.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

This is also the first Ceccherini I've seen with a headstock inlay. Again, rather Art Nouveau and (to my eyes) supremely tasteful. Unlike the scratchplate, this inlay is yellow/golden, which I think is the result of silver and MOP that has been varnished over along with the rest of the headstock. 

The ten ivory buttons are identical to my other one, and are in good nick. Slight difference in the nut from Ceccherini's norm: this one has a separate zero fret and nut rather than both together as one unit.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Nice engraved tuners, same engraving as on my other one. Interesting that these were available as units of five.

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

This is the first Ceccherini I've seen that still has its tailpiece cover. The tortoiseshell is backed with a sheet of lead (!). The anchor holding it to the tailpiece hooks was missing, and the only reason that this has not lead to the loss of the cover itself is that somebody glued it to the top, underneath the strings. Luckily, they used very weak glue, so it was easy to get off and clean away the residue. I made a new anchor to hold it on out of aluminium sheet metal cut out from a drinks can. Improvised, but works pretty well at least until I get around to making a proper anchor. 

Martin

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## Martin Jonas

Last one: the tailpiece, with my improvised drinks-can anchor for the cover. Again, strange to see that he had access to a tailpiece matching his eccentric string configuration.

Martin

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## Fliss

Congrats Martin, that looks really nice! I love the inlay, it does have an Art Nouveau look as you say, and the delicacy is delightful. 

I hadn't realised the triple strings were the trebles, for some reason I had thought they would be on the bass side. Aren't you at all tempted to string it up that way and experiment with the sound? Having said that, I bet it's loud, with heavier strings and the Ceccherini double top.

Fliss

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## Linda Binder

Gorgeous Martin!! Thanks for sharing pictures of your new arrival.
--Linda

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## JeffD

Can anyone tell me anything about this bowl back? The label says Carl Fischer, New York. There is a serial too, inside towards the base of the neck.

I found it at an auction, got it for almost nothing, took off the old rusty strings and put on some GHS ultra lights and I play it regularly. The neck is straight and secure, and it has a great tone. It came in a pretty beat up canvas bag - I have since got a bowl back hardshell case for it.

I have no clue who made it or how old it is, or from where it comes. Any help is appreciated.

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## JeffD

A close up.

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## JeffD

And another

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## JeffD

And the inlay on the peg head.

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## JeffD

And the tuner covers.

Any ideas?

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## Jim Garber

Jeff:
Not too much to tell. Carl Fischer is still in business in New York (near Cooper Union). They are a music store, tho now only deal in sheet music, back in the teens and twenties they sold instruments of all kinds and also published their own line.

This was made for them under their label. Hard to tell who the actual manufacturer was tho. There were quite a few New York makers like Luigi Ricca and Galiano who made instruments for the trade. 

I just saw a CF-labelled mandolin at a flea market the other day, tho yours is in much better shape. It looks like the tailpiece was replaced. Are those tuners original?

Enjoy it.

Jim

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## JeffD

I really don't know what is original on it and what isnt. As you can tell the whole thing is in good enough shape. The "sweater catcher" tailpiece does seem kind of generic.

What suprises me is the neck is straight as an arrow and firmly connected to the body - no repairs. Most of the bowl back mandolins I have seen at non musical antique stores and flea markets have really screwed up necks and/or loose neck to body connections - or repairs covering both.

My plan is to play it till it explodes. It sounds sweet, and plays well. The A string wants to go out of tune every hour on the hour, but I can deal with that.

The mandolin especially sounds good on some of the Klezmer tunes I am trying to learn.

Thanks for your input.

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## Jim Garber

Jeff:
What kind of strings are on it? That may make a difference in the tuning.

There is no reasom that the mandolin should implode with sensible light gauge strings on it.

The tailpiece is definitely modern and the tuner buttons look too fancy and new for that model. 

Jim

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## JeffD

I put GHS ultra lights on it. I was afraid to put something heavier on.

I think the tuners need to be cleaned because the thing tunes up in quanta - you know you turn the peg and nothing happens and then all of sudden you have turned too far.

I am really getting a kick out of playing it. The sound is very sweet. Especially when I play a Klezmer or Gypsie tune or any Eastern Eurpean influenced tune. There is something very satisfying about so much "soul" coming out of such a small piece of wood.

The scratches on the front would indicate that it has been played hard, and by the looks of it mostly chords. So the mandolin has had a previous life!

I was reading the classical folks chat about needing a chamois or hide to put on my lap to keep the thing from twisting to strings up position as I play. Others advocate a foot rest. I have been using a custom kleenex box foot rest.

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## Jim Garber

And now... after a number of months of my patiently waiting... I finally have my first Embergher.

Countless thanks to Martin Jonas, who found the instrument for me in June of last year, photographed and described it in molecular detail and even shipped it for me to Jon Springall for restoration. Thanks also for Jon for doing a nice job on the restoration. And additional thanks for the very patient Embergher experts, Ralf and Alex who nboth gave me expert advice on this instrument.

This is, of course, a testament to this board that, as the cliche goes, I couldn't have done it without you.

I am still getting used to the instrument. This is as far from my Pandini as a bowlback can get. Strangely enough, the narrow v-shaped neck is not any problem, but just getting used to a different sound and touch. I also realized that this instrument, which sat for many year unplayed, needs some re-breaking in. Also, the Emberghers have a different tonality than other mandolins, or so I am told. 

This one is a lowly Student type A from 1913. It has a via Belsiana label. Here are a few pics.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the headstock detail. I don't think that that tuners are original, tho they are on backwards, I believe. They tune in reverse. I suppose the next time I change strings I should try to switch them.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the concert bridge that Jon Springall made for this. I think the original was all ebony with a butterfly cut. 

Jim

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## brunello97

Congratulations, Jim. It looks fantastic. What type of work did Jon Springall do besides what you mentioned? I look forward to hearing more about it.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

There was some slight warpage of the top and the fretboard end was slightly warped as well. General set up and levelling the frets (all bar frets as per all Emberghers). Prob a few other things as well. BTW it is strungs with Optima Goldins.

Jim

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## Linda Binder

Congratulations Jim! #It's so beautiful. #The lack of frippery makes it easy to enjoy the clean, elegant design. #Enjoy! #If you get tired of re-breaking it in ship it to me....you know my address...you're welcome.
--Linda (currently breaking in a bandolim, or vice versa)

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## Jim Garber

I will prob bring it to the Aonzo workshop. Matt V will have his model 3 so it will be interesting.

Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Congratulations in public again from me, Jim. This one is a virtually identical twin to my Embergher, except that it's two years older (mine is 1915) and has different tuners. It all came about when the former conductor of our ensemble (now in his late 80s and no longer well enough to play) saw mine and said it was virtually identical to the one he bought in the 1960s for another elderly and now-retired player. As the owner of that one wanted to sell, and I already had one, I put her in touch with Jim. Cue various intercontinental photo calls and Q&A sessions.

The instruments are also in very similar condition (after Jon's work) and both have Jon's reproduction concert bridge and at the moment even the same strings, so they should sound rather similar once Jim's has had a bit of playing time and has settled down.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Yes, I *definitely* need to settle down... or, did you mean the mandolin?

Jim

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## Fliss

Jim, congrats on your beautiful Embergher! I've had the privilege of playing Martin's, and it's definitely the nicest bowlback I've played, even compared to his Vinaccia! And I like the simplicity of the student model better than the more ornate versions.

Fliss

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## JeffD

Beautiful. Clean elegant classic look. 

What a great hobbie we have, appreciating, owning, and even collecting fine works of art, examples of fine woodworking, studying accoustic science, playing music with friends, and performing on stage - and its all the same hobbie.

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## onthefiddle

Hi Jim,

I'm glad that you are pleased with your Embergher! I too must say that I prefer the simple clean lines of the Tipo A to the slightly more expensive Tipo B. Thanks also for your patience, and my apologies to all for not being more active at the Cafe in recent months. The good news is that I have now secured the full-time services of an experienced, qualified assistant, Mr Andrew Quelch, who is also a Mandolinist!

I recently had the pleasure of examining another Embergher Tipo A, from 1927, at Sotheby's in London. It was lying beside a "late 19th century" Raffaele Calace, a 1782 Antonio Vinaccia and a 1781 Donato Filano. At Bonhams there was also a 1933 Embergher Model 3 Orchestral mandolin - and beyond this there were all the fiddles! (I got to examine three Nicolo Amatis, and a whole herd of Gaglianos that day.)

Enjoy playing your Embergher in!  

Jon

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Jon for all your help. I know it was a crazy time for you as well. Nice to see you back here and to hear your excellent comments.

Jim

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## Lex Luthier

Nothing special, you guys have some really interesting pieces, but here's mine.

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## Lex Luthier

And the back.

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## Embergher

> Here is the headstock detail. I don't think that that tuners are original, tho they are on backwards, I believe. They tune in reverse. I suppose the next time I change strings I should try to switch them.


This looks like a wonderful Christmas present, Jim!
And, as we've seen before, Jon has done an excellent job on it, including the new concert bridge. 
(it must be proud on its promotion with the concert bridge!)  
I can't see the tuners very well, but they don't look original, certainly in this period. 
However, it's quite possible to have an Embergher with original tuners which tune in reverse. There are not many of them but they do exist.
I don't think you can switch them, at least not without damaging the wood of the head underneath, to make new little holes at the places where the worms are attached ... I have two which tune in reverse and I just live with them as they are.
I can imagine there is a huge difference in sound with your Pandini, but give yourself and the mandolin a bit of time to get used to eachother and you will probably get to like it a lot. 
Good to see an old Embergher been taken so well care of and go to a good home # 
Enjoy!

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Lex for posting your bowlback. I appreciate the many ends of mandolin spectra. Particularly maple bowls. Of note also is the top gearing of your tuners. Has this topic been discussed? (Probably.) 

I've got an old Favila with top racked gears they tune the same way as the bottom racked ones-CCW on the bass CW on the treble. When and why did the change over occur? 

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Here is a mystery mandolin. I actually bought it cheaply for the parts but except for the big separations of the bowl and general grunginess, it looks like it may be Italian in origin. The neck joint is a sort of scarf joint (I think that is what you call it) and it has aged bone tuner buttons similar to my deMeglio. 

I wonder if anyone cares to guess the maker or even the locale. Seen anything like it?

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is a close-up of the neck joint.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Here is the bottom end.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

The only identifying mark is a small (about 5/8" - 16mm at the base) triangular label. It looks like it may say something like "L&R" or "L&K". There may be other letters as well. 

Jim

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## Bill Snyder

Not a scarf joint, but rather a "V" joint. A scarf joint is a common joint used to glue the headstock to the neck in guitar construction. It is a long, straight cut angled across the neck. 
The attached image shows a scarf joint (though not the neatest).
While I don't think the "V" joint was ever the norm it was more common once than it is now.

----------


## Jim Garber

Thanks, Bill, I figured I should not have used that term. In any case, it is a more complex joint than found on a similar grade American instrument (with the possible exception of a Martin bowlback) which is one reason why this funky mandolin strikes me as Italian.

Jim

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## guitharsis

Interesting mystery mandolin, Jim, and congrats on your
beautiful Embergher! Missed your post and was going to e-mail you.
Doreen

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## Jerry Byers

> The only identifying mark is a small (about 5/8" - 16mm at the base) triangular label. It looks like it may say something like "L&R" or "L&K". There may be other letters as well. 
> 
> Jim


Looks like *L&K* to me. Underneath that, it looks like a *M*.

----------


## jeffshuniak

the left hand mandolin is mine....dino bersis....
the right hand one is my friend jennifer's....favilla bros...circa ??

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## Eugene

Looks beautiful. How does the sound strike you? Playability?

----------


## JeffD

> #Lest Everybody thinks That is my only mando, here is a pic of my pride and joy. #She is a Lyon Healy Model C #443


A real beauty!

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## jeffshuniak

DISCLAIMER: I am only real familiar and able to compare with a greek mandolin, uncanted top...so here we go: 

the setup is great! fortunately, its previous owner was a luthier who was very fond of mandolins and very experienced with their upkeep and repair...you can see there was a hairline crack about an inch long in the top, back by the tailpiece...but the top seems to have never sunk, it is scuffed a little by the pickguard...the neck, I dunno, there is a little bow on it, I THINK its intentional....the intonation and "action" are perfect- so I don't know what to say there........the back is unharmed...

the sound is bright, more midrange than I am used to with my mandolin...I think that may come from the canted top? ..also, we havnt really compared with both mandolins having new strings at the same time...in fact, her strings are probably a month old or so...(for sure it sounds exponentially better than the cheap, italian mandolin I used to have..musikalia-bottom end)...
bronze strings for this one, right? #ghs classical set...

so I hope I got her a good deal...$400...I know she couldnt buy a NEW mandolin that would be this nice for that price...I feel funny about this, but I guess I was hoping it was the deal of the century! or close..

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## David Newton

While the V-joint is somewhat rare, some are doing it. Here it is on my guitar

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## David Newton

Here is it's construction.

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## Jim Garber

Well, it has been awhile, so, in an effort to refresh this thread, I figured I had to acquire yet another bowlback. This is one by Alfonso Moretti of Napoli. The upside is that it is in practically imaculate condition with one slight hairline bowlcrack, one on the butt end but no other cracks that I can see. The worse part is that the neck either needs to be reset or steam bent back to a correct angle. However, the inlay work is relatively tasteful and the workmanship is very good. Luckily I paid relatively little so the remainder can go into the mandolin repair fund for this one and I think it will be worth the effort. 

Nice engraved pearl inlay on the scratchplate, bone tuner buttons and completely intact pearl border and rosette. 

There is no date on the label but this was a UK import by Ball Beavon & Co. More pics to follow of this one.

Pardon for the mediocre quality of these photos.

Jim

----------


## Jim Garber

Back view (sorry for the reflection).

----------


## Jim Garber

Butt end view. I like the subtle tulipwood(?) lining around the apron.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Closeup of the scratchplate and bridge. The bridge is a variant of the standard bone inset saddle on ebony bridge but done very delicately.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is the best I could do of the label.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

The only other Moretti I have in my files is this one from eBay in 2004 similar scratchplate but different headstock and border inlays.

Jim

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## Fliss

Looks nice, Jim. What date do you think it might be from? The inlay looks somewhat in the art nouveau style. 

Fliss

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## Fliss

And to add to the bowlback fun, I've now got my Calace back from the luthier. It only needed two things doing to it; the inlaid pickguard sticking down, and the action adjusting for my comfort (it was rather high!)

Here's the view showing the pickguard now lying nice and flat - the top is still a bit uneven, but this is as good as he could get it. because of the fretboard extension he had to adapt a clamp specially in order to reach!

Fliss

----------


## Fliss

This is what it looked like before...

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## Fliss

And here's a full frontal view. I've taken Martin Jonas's advice and put Optima Goldins on it, which already sound much better than the Rotosound strings I put on it at first. I've had some mixed feelings about this bowlback because it is unmistakeably larger and more solidly built than my De Meglio, and I like the lightness of the latter. But this one has a clean simplicity which I enjoy, I kind of like its 70s vibe, and now that the action's sorted out it's a lot more fun to play than it was. I'm looking forward to taking it to ensemble practice and seeing how I get on with it.

Fliss

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## Fliss

When I was at the luthier's workshop picking up my Calace, he brought out another mandolin to show me, just because he knew I'd be interested. It was a very nice looking old bowlback, rather in the style of Vinaccia, with gorgeous tuning buttons and some of the loveliest woods I've seen in a bowlback. The label was rather undistinguished, just an importer's label saying "Maidstone" , John Murdoch, London. This particular Maidstone bowlback was there because it was having some restoration done - it belongs to a descendant of the Murdoch family and is therefore a family piece for them. 

Nice story, I thought, and a surprisingly nice mandolin. 

The very next day I saw a "Maidstone" mandolin crop up on e-bay, looking very similar to the one at the luthier's workshop, and going very cheap. So I bought it on a whim, and will be passing it on to a friend of mine who wanted a cheap mandolin.

It's actually a very nice mandolin too, in better condition than the one at the luthier's, but not such nice buttons or quite such nice woods - though still very nice. I noticed it had another label underneath the importer's label, and have managed to remove this to show the actual maker's label underneath - Achille Lanfranco e Figlio, Napoli, 1899.

Here's a picture of the front, I'll follow on with some other pictures. Can anyone tell me anything about Lanfranco?

Fliss

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## Fliss

I do like the soundhole decoration on this mandolin - and all the MOP inlay seems intact

Fliss

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## Fliss

The neck angle looks to have lifted slightly, and the bridge is already very low, but it should be possible to improve the action a bit. 

Fliss

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## Fliss

And finally, here's a shot of the bowl. It's in really good condition, with just one split along a join.

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

No info on this maker, Fliss. I have three others of similar grade in my jpeg files. Nothing spectacular. Yours looks like the best condition in general. 

There were so many makers in Napoli at that time and very little info on any of them. I look in my violin books first but some did not make violins.

Jim

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## fryingpanjo

How does a vintage neck on a frying pan pot sound?
My Webpage
go to the Re-instruments page check item # 9.
I was just having fun, but the "instrument" sounds reasonable nice. The neck was broken just at the tenth fret so I added some finger board and two frets. 
Mack

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## Martin Jonas

Just a cross ref to a picture of an Italian Big Three summit meeting that I've just posted here.

Martin

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## JeffD

> Can anyone tell me anything about this bowl back? The label says Carl Fischer, New York. There is a serial too, inside towards the base of the neck.
> 
> I found it at an auction, got it for almost nothing, took off the old rusty strings and put on some GHS ultra lights and I play it regularly. The neck is straight and secure, and it has a great tone. It came in a pretty beat up canvas bag - I have since got a bowl back hardshell case for it.
> 
> I have no clue who made it or how old it is, or from where it comes. Any help is appreciated.


I may have a better mandolin than I thought.

This one looks identical to the one I got at an auction for something like $25.00 More picks of my mandolin back in my original October posting.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/msg/371177524.html

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## JeffD

Ah well, the link expired.

----------


## Jim Garber

I just heard from Lorenzo Lippi and he gave mer permission to post these pictures of his Embergher repros. He is the one who published that poster of the style 3. Alex Timmerman and Sebastiaan Grebber have been giving him feedback on the details of these instruments. 

This one is a 5 bis mandola (octave tuning). A member of the Het Consort was very kind to let me try a few notes on it. A lovely instrument, beautifully made and sounding very nice and full. I think that the recurve is especially impressive.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is what Lorenzo calls a serie 1.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Here is another view of the mandolin.

Jim

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## Jim Garber

Another of the mandola esp showing the recurve.

Jim

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## margora

I played the Style 3 Lippi mandola currently owned by one of Het Consort's mandola players. It is a very powerful instrument, easy to play, excellent dynamic range, outstanding craftsmanship. I didn't ask but I am sure it is not cheap.

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## Jim Garber

Bob, that *is* the mandola you played and Lorenzo calls it a style 5bis. As I recall, it would be considerably cheaper than buying a vintage Embergher 5 bis mandola, assuming you could find one.

Jim

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## Eugene

Yum!

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## JeffD

What a beauty. And to think it makes music.

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## Fliss

I like the Serie 1, Jim, I don't suppose you got the chance to try that out did you? I'd be interested to hear how it compares to your Embergher.

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

The only Lippi instrument that was in NY was that mandola and I only played it for a few seconds. The serie 1 I just have photos of and might not have been finished at the time and might have been meant for others.

Jim

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## vkioulaphides

Absolutely LOVELY, all of them! Thanks a million, Jim.

----------


## BobbyFromDallas

My circa 1900 Washburn mandolin.

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## Jim Garber

I like the bone or grained ivoroid tuning buttons. This must be a relatively early one with a 4 post tailpiece. Will you have it restored?

Jim

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## BobbyFromDallas

Jim,

I believe that the tuning buttons are made of elephant ivory. 

As to restoration: I scraped all of the super glue off of the back and glued the cracks using Titebond III, a strap clamp, and a homemade jig. For the repair, I hade to cut through the back braces do to the shrinkage of the staves. I plan to spray varnish the back after a light sanding. Other than carving a new bridge, I dont plan to do anything else to it.

----------


## Eugene

Neil Russell is convinced Lyon & Healy never used ivory on their Washburn instruments. Personally, I do believe the ivoroid they used was pretty convincing and looked really nice. It's impossible for me to tell from the photos, Bobby. Washburns labeled with the wooden medallion and lacking lining in the bowl are from very early in the brand's existence, 1889-1896.

----------


## BobbyFromDallas

Thanks for the information!

The mandolins bottom plate reads PAT. MCH.10.91, so it was probably made after 1891. The buttons compare favorably with the pictures I have found on the Internet (see image). My firsthand experience with ivory is limited to old piano keys and the zoo. The mandolin has the unmistakable odor of years of tobacco smoke. The wear on the frets and fret board indicate that this mandolin was played a great deal. The buttons might be darker because of the smoke, tobacco, or oil from the players hands. 

Does anyone have advice on how to lubricate the tuners?

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## monk

> Repeating mine.
> Old no-name, but plays and sounds very nice


I have a very similar mandolin to that old no-name like yours. However near the joint of the neck and body, there is an ivoroid insert on the fret board that says "Burton." I will try to post a picture later this week. The original case looks like yours, but is worthless to protect the instrument, so I just bought an Eastman fiberglass case from Gianna Violins and it fits like a glove. I love this Burton mandolin. My mother-in-law gave it to me from the cache of old instruments in the farmhouse. I had a luthier do some excellent repair work including replacing the tuners, repairing a broken brace and repairing the bridge and saddle. It has lots of pick wear, but it is easy to play. I love the neck and it is loud. The bowl back is made from wide matching strips of what looks like Brazilian rosewood. This mandolin is loud with lots of sustain. I love it it. Thanks for the pictures.

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## Paul Weber

Here is my "The Larson" bowlback that i picked up recently for a couple hundred bucks. F J Lowe is engraved in pearl at the 16th fret and The Larson is engraved in pearl on the peghead. It doesn't have Larson Bros characteristics so I don't think it was made by them unless it was a very early one. The slope on the top of the peghead indicates a Regal-made instrument. The tuners have a Patent date of Mar 13 1894. Maybe someone can give me more information about this mandolin.

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## Paul Weber

"The Larson"

----------


## Paul Weber

"The Larson"

----------


## Paul Weber

"The Larson"

----------


## Paul Weber

I forgot to add that it sounds great. I've had a few bowlbacks before including a Vega & some mid level Italians & this one is much better sounding than all of those.

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## Paul Weber

"The Larson"

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## Paul Weber

I just want to add that the engraving in the neck inlays is a little crude. You can't really see that in the pics.

----------


## JeffD

nice one

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## laddy jota

Here is an Oscar Schmidt 12-string bowlback which has had its top removed for repairs.

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## Jim Garber

It's been awhile since we posted here. In an effort to keep this thread alive, I was forced to buy this one. It is a simple Calace. The seller thought he had a mandolin but when I asked him about the scale length he told me 17 inches / 43 cm. I just got it today and it looks like it is in decent shape, some amateur repair on the bowl and one small hairline on the top.

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## Jim Garber

Here is the back.

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## brunello97

Nice catch, Jim. Is this the 'double-secret' acquisition you were hinting about? I love the Emeril-style headstock. Do you have any more factoidss about it to share? 

BTW I tuned the 17" scale Puglisi I got last summer to CGDA and it has been working out quite nicely. That low C is fine.

Mick

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## Bob A

Sweet, Jim. Very clean, elegant appearance. Is it dated?

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## Fliss

> It's been awhile since we posted here. In an effort to keep this thread alive, I was forced to buy this one. It is a simple Calace. The seller thought he had a mandolin but when I asked him about the scale length he told me 17 inches / 43 cm. ...


Nice! I love the clean lines. I'd guess 1970s?? It looks like it ought to be the big sister of my little 1974 Calace.

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

No date on the label but I have a jpeg of a 1979 which it resembles. My friend who knows wood well said that it is Brazilian rosewood which might make it a little earlier, maybe 1960s. 

Calace seems to be one that changed their models often but I am not sure of th3e model number. The plainest they list these days is their model 24 which this may be. There is no picture of it on their site but the number 26 has a similar headstock to mine.

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## Eugene

Congrats, Jim. It's groovy.

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## CraigF

Well, I didn't know this thread existed. Here is my Vega I just got off of eBay.

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## CraigF

The back.

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## CraigF

And along side my Liuto.

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Craig, for posting that. My style 3 is nearly its twin. I wonder if they ever have identical pg inlays. I don;t know if I ever saw two that were alike.

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## Jim Garber

> Sweet, Jim. Very clean, elegant appearance. Is it dated?


I thought it wasn't dated but I looked again at the label and tho the date is written very faintly it looks like 1975.

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## Eugene

> Thanks, Craig, for posting that. My style 3 is nearly its twin. I wonder if they ever have identical pg inlays. I don;t know if I ever saw two that were alike.


My "Schuchmann" Vega is its other twin (thanks, Bob).

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## CraigF

> Thanks, Craig, for posting that. My style 3 is nearly its twin. I wonder if they ever have identical pg inlays. I don;t know if I ever saw two that were alike.


It's a sweet little instrument. I love the sound. Renaissance music sounds sooo much better on it than my Weber. The resonance is incredible.

My Eastman case will arrive today.

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## Jim Garber

For comparison, here is my Lyon & Healy mandola next to the Calace. I thought that maybe the Cale would fit in the L&H case but no way. It is gargantuan even tho the scale is only 1/2 inch longer.

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## Jim Garber

My three Calaces... rosewood circa 1920, the mandola (1975?) and maple bowled 1921.

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## Jim Garber

Here are the backs...

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## Fliss

I enjoyed seeing those group shots of your Calaces, Jim, thanks for sharing. The rosewood mandolin looks particularly elegant to my eyes.

Fliss

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## Jim Garber

The RW mandolin is what I call a hole-in-the-head model. Calaces do have nice aesthetics... I like the round (vs. oval) holes with the flowing pickguards as well as the shape of the headstocks. I have a feeling that the mandola will be a boomer.

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## Eugene

Man, it would per hard for me to leave the house in the morning were I you, Jim.

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## Jim Garber

Come on over, Eugene! We'll have some pancakes, play some duets and go bowling for bowlbacks. 

Man, we gotta get you back to New York!

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## guitharsis

Very nice, Jim! I love the simple lines of the Calaces.

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## Bob A

You're welcome, Eugene.

As to inlays on Vegas, I've always been more charmed by the engraving on the position markers. I've never seen two alike, and each one a delight.

And I envy Jim his maple Calace bowl. While I doubt there's any significant sonic difference, I'm a sucker for maple on mandolins.

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## CraigF

> As to inlays on Vegas, I've always been more charmed by the engraving on the position markers. I've never seen two alike, and each one a delight.


Here's some from mine.

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## Jim Garber

Here's my style 3 Vega, just to show another variant on the pg inlay.

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## Jim Garber

Here is the fretboard with inlays.

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## CraigF

Nice pics, Jim. You take much better pics than I do.

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## Bob A

There's a spirit akin to that of the cathedral builders inherent in those pearl markers. Imagine taking the time to engrave them individually by hand, each one unique, with no identification of the engraver, and no bean-counter moaning about the time and money lost in a profitless endeavor to simply add beauty to an object.

Never again. Those few who own and treasure these things are fortunate to have them. The rest will remain out of luck, I'm afraid.

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## DaveNB

I bought a bowlback from a fellow in Saskatchewan through fleabay last week. To my surprise, I received this instrument, which appears to be a piccolo mandolin. It's a Stella, from who knows when. It is stamped 30 0868. I got it for next to nothing, which might not be a surprise given the condition. The fingerboard is 8 and 1/2" long with 17 frets, about 13" to the bridge. Overall it is about 24 3/4 inches long and 8" wide at the widest point

It has one open seam in the back and a small crack next to the fingerboard on the front.


[/IMG]

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## Jim Garber

> Nice pics, Jim. You take much better pics than I do.


Actually the fretboard one I just scanned the mandolin. A friend had a style 207 Vega cylinderback and wanted to see what a missing inlay could look like.

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## btrott

Here is my current favorite one to play, front.

Barry

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## btrott

... and back

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## Eugene

Groovy, Barry. Who's the maker? Look like another entry on the early mandolin eye candy page may be in order. It looks somewhat Strad-like, only with an extra course, a lute-like chip-carved rose, and a relatively wide fingerboard.

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## btrott

This one was built by Ronald Cooper in 1985, after a Stradavarius mandolino that was being restored in the workshop of Christopher Challen. I believe that it is based on this instrument, Challen Strad. I purchased this from Marilyn Mair a number of years ago, and have enjoyed it ever since. She may know more about the provenance.

Barry

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## Jim Garber

Barry:
 Thanks for posting that gorgeous instruments. The proportions and details look very different from the one in SD. Curious...

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## btrott

Eugene and Jim, thanks for your kind words about the instrument. It is both a delight to play and to look at.

"The proportions and details look very different from the one in SD."

Jim, I am not sure about this, but it may be that the instrument that Cooper copied was the other Strad mandolino, referenced in Tyler and Sparks (18) as having "a nine-ribbed maple back and a rosette carved into the wood of the soundboard." Sparks references Coates' _Geometry, Proportion and the Art of Lutherie_ for a drawing of this instrument, and if I have a chance (and can find them) I will check the copies I made of the mandolino drawings in Coates and report back. Sparks notes that this is Stradivarius body-pattern no. 419.

Barry

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## Eugene

Nope, the one pictured is the one restored by Challen and is actually known as the "Cutler-Challen" Strad. I can see the inspiration in the bowl's construction, binding style, unorthodox finial, etc. I think he probably just modified it a touch to accommodate six courses and perhaps a more lute-like sensibility (wider fingerboard, chip-carved rose, etc.) to appeal to lutenists. I have only seen the other Strad mandolin pictured once in a book I do not own.

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## Jim Garber

> I bought a bowlback from a fellow in Saskatchewan through fleabay last week. To my surprise, I received this instrument, which appears to be a piccolo mandolin. It's a Stella, from who knows when.


Sorry, Dave... no one responded to your posting. Why do you say it is a piccolo? It sounds like it has the standard 13 inch scale. Stella made decent budget instruments tho yours has been thru the mill. OTOH it might clean up at some point and if you want to work on it yourself, could be a decent instrument.

----------


## DaveNB

Your right it is a mandolin. I was looking at the relatively short fretboard and going from that.

I ordered the required pieces to repair it from stew-mac. I'll post a picture of the results. I am looking forward to having some fun with it.

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## DaveNB

Here are the results of my repair job. It plays pretty well. It took me a while to fix the back because of all the separations. The fingerboard is softwood and that was difficult to deal with as well.

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## Jim Garber

I figured I should give this one  a bump. I guess no one is buying any bowlbacks of interest. Are we all tapped out?

----------


## billkilpatrick

here's my bowlback and me squinting in the sun:

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## Jim Garber

Nice photo, Bill. I can't recall the background on that bowlback.

----------


## billkilpatrick

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eLZghQ...eature=related

----------


## Jim Garber

So, Bill, it is a John Fogerty model?

----------


## billkilpatrick

... here's another incidence where i wish i could "delete!" - i thought by "background" you meant the photo ...

it was given to me by a friend - her grandmother's mandolin.  label inside reads "a. galiano - fabbricante de mandoline e chitarre."  cost me some to have it brought back into condition ... i'm warming up to it gradually.

----------


## Kyle Baker

This is a bowlback I bought from Chris Logan on the online charity auction at www.brokenbowls.com.

The label inside says it's a J.W. Pepper, but I'm not familiar with this brand... maybe it was made by another company and distributed through J.W. Pepper. It has the number 1159 stamped across the top of the head stock, I assume that is a serial number.

It had a couple open seams on the back, but after some gluing and clamping I got it all sealed up.


Finally I was able to string her up and it sounds pretty darn nice in my opinion.
If anyone knows anything about this mandolin could you pass on some info? maybe an approximate date or anything?
Thanks,
Kyle

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## Scott Beliz

Aloha - I stumpled across this forum as I was searching for information regarding this mandolin that was given to me after my grandfather had passed away. I've had it sitting up in my closet for the past 7 years,  It says it is a 
Luigi Salsedo,  Napoli. I would really like to know what type of wood this mandolin is made out of and possibly any other information would be great. I don't plan on ever selling it, my 9 year old son is learning to play guitar and ukulele now and hopefully one day the mandolin.
  Thank you for any information you may have.

----------


## Martin Jonas

That's a nice one!  Obviously, the woods are maple for the bowl, with rosewood trim, and a spruce soundboard.  The neck is probably a softwood core with a rosewood veneer (that's how they made them in Naples back then -- Roman and US instruments had solid necks instead).  Rosewood scratchplate and fretboard.  The date is given on the label, so no big mystery there.  Looks like 1891, and that's about right for the style.  Luigi Salsedo was one of the best of the "second tier" Italian makers, just outside the "big three" of Embergher, Calace and Vinaccia.  If I remember right, one of our regulars, Bob A, has a Salsedo and is very fond of it.  This one is a rather plain model, but a plain model by a good maker typically sounds much better than a fancy model by a so-so maker.  In addition, the looks are much more pleasing to the modern eye than some of the more overdecorated Victorian mandolins, so although this would not have been a very expensive mandolin when new, your grandfather did very well and this is obviously a keeper. 

One thing you may want to look at is the bridge placement.  Just about all old bolwbacks, with the significant exception of Vega, were designed to have the bridge on the soundhole side of the cant.  Yours is on the wrong side.  I suspect that will make the mandolin quite difficult to intonate properly, and you may consider fitting a bridge to go where it was intended to be (either the existing bridge or a replacement one).  Sometimes, the dimensions of the mandolin have changed so much over the course of more than a century of wood expanding and contracting that you can' intonate properly on the right side of the cant anymore, but usually you can, and should -- it's likely to sound much better with the bridge in the right place.

Martin

----------


## Scott Beliz

Martin, thanks so much for the information on my bowlback, I really knew nothing about, except that my grandfather use to play it very well along with his favorite banjo. I'm going to take it into our local music shop here and have them look at the bridge and see what they can do and also possibly some strings as well, I know these have been on  for a minimum of 20+ years..
Again, thank you very much..

Scott

----------


## Martin Jonas

Scott,

I don't know where you're based, but I should say that most local music shops don't know the first thing about mandolins, let alone the rather different needs of delicate vintage bowlbacks.  I would be very reluctant indeed to let any local music shop loose on this instrument and you should really consult an experienced luthier who has some bowlback experience.

The most important thing to note is that bowlbacks *must not* be strung with standard bluegrass-gauge mandolin strings such as J74 (likely the only mandolin strings a non-specialist music shop has in stock).  These strings are made for much more robustly build archtop carved mandolins and will destroy a vintage bowlback in short order.  You should use only extra-light gauge strings.

Regarding bridge adjustment, this will be straightforward for any luthier if it's just a matter of moving the bridge to the right position.  However, if the bridge does not sit flat and with full contact in that position, then its base needs to be refitted to the top, and that's a somewhat more involved process.

Good luck!

Martin

----------


## Scott Beliz

Martin, 

Thank you again for the advice, I'm located in Hawaii and there are several ukulele dealers here and a few music shops that repair. I think I'll talk with a few different people before getting anything done.. 

Mahalo and Aloha to you for all your info...

Scott

----------


## jasona

Alhoa Scott,

Very nice mandolin indeed! Your local shops should be able to find a set of the GHS classical extra light strings somewhere. And do not make do with a heavier set; it appears from your photograph that there is a crack running on the treble side of the soundboard, below the sound hole and extending beneath the scratch plate. Heavy strings might stress that further.

But hopefully my eyes are deceiving me.

Cheers, Jason

----------


## JeffD

MAS strikes again. My latest acqusition. 1911 Martin Style 3. Brough it home last night. More pictures in my album.

----------


## Eddie Sheehy

Martin Style 4 - 1904

----------


## JeffD

Had a priority work assignment for the last three days, so I haden't really played on my new (to me) Style 3. About 5:07 this afternoon I picked it up and have been having a ball. What a great sounding instrument. And its in wonderful shape, true all the way up the neck. 

If I have any complaints, its that work keeps getting in the way.

----------


## Margriet

> Carrying on in an early-kin vein, most people here who would care have seen this a dozen times before, but just in case...
> 
> Here is a ca. 1835 anonymous piece to predate geared tuners and metal tailpieces. Alex Timmerman attributes this to the shop of Clement Eulry, France and that attribution seems as likely as any.


Today I received a similar instrument, but with fluted ribs. Alex thinks it will be made by the same maker, Eulry.
There is some work on: to place the original wooden pegs instead of the mechanical ones, repair cracks, place some frets, make a new bridge.....but it is worth ! Look, isn't she lovely ?

I saw in this thread much more about these instruments.

I am curious how the sound is and how it is with playing.
Do you have experience with it ? Eugene, Jonathan ?

----------


## Jim Garber

Margriet... it looks lovely. Do you think that it needs some correction to the neck angle -- it looks a little high above the upper part of the fretboard.? I guess your luthier will tell you that.  

I wonder if, as a playable instrument with steel strings might it be better to use something like these Pegheds tuning pegs. They are geared so the tuning would be much easier and more accurate with still looking like the std violin pegs.

There is an example of a Clement Eulry mandolin (not pictured) in the Victoria & Albert Museum



> Clément Eulry (ca. 1765-1835) was a maker of violins, bows and mandolins. He was based in Mirecourt, main centre for making musical instruments in France, outside Paris. Although undated, this instrument is an interesting and probably fairly early example of a Neapolitan
> mandolin, made outside Italy. This version of the instrument was tuned like a violin and played with a quill or plectrum. Those who composed for it included Ludwig Van Beethoven (1770-1827) and Giuseppe Verdi (1813-1901).
> 
> Descriptive line
> French, mahogany, rosewood and sycamore ribs, Clément Eulry, 1800 - 1830.
> 
> Physical description
> 'Body of sixteen ribs of sycamore, rosewood and mahogany, forming a striking banded appearance. Pine belly, slightly bent inwards at bridge level, with an open mouthhole with stringing surrounds and a protector plate of rosewood, inlaid. Bridge missing. Ebony neck with fingerboard extending on to belly and eighteen frets of silver T-section wire. The flat head has decorative ivory studs along the sides, and eight rear pegs for four double courses of metal strings, running to four ivory hitch studs at the base of the body'. - Anthony Baines: Catalogue of Musical Instruments in the Victoria and Albert Museum - Part II: Non-keyboard instruments. (London, 1998), p. 41.

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## Margriet

interesting....
I suppose that the description you gave of the catalogue the V&A museum belongs to the mandolin mentioned on page 6/7 of this thread, by Jon.
There are similar and also different things. The mandolin of Eugene, Jon and the museum have ribs of two sorts of wood, mine one and fluted. And the number of frets also is different at the different instruments.
It will be difficult to tune with the original wooden pegs, if I understand well the explanation of Jon on page 7. It is because of not having a pegbox on the other side, like on a viola or violin. On my Lombardian there is also a pegbox on the otherside to keep the pegs tied.
As this thread is more than 5 years old, I am interested in what happened after, what experience people of cafe now have on this item.

About pieces written for this instrument: Anthony Baines of the catalogue writes that Beethoven composed for it. There was a thread here "historical mandolins and cultural preferences"". There I read, that there is much evidence that Beethoven wrote also for 6-string mandolins.

I do not want to start this whole discussion again......just mention.

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## Charles E.

Here are a couple we have in the shop, a Washburn and an unrestored Embergher.

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## Jennifer

Hi, I am new to the forum. I just purchased my first vintage bowlback today; it's a 1900 Salsedo, I think a pretty low-end one but it sounds lovely anyway. I look forward to learning more about it.

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## Jim Garber

It looks lovely, Jennifer. much of the ornamentation does not really add to the sound. IMHO the simpler the better.

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## Jake Wildwood

I agree entirely with Jim on this. The sparer the instrument the better the sound from my experience, all things being equal otherwise.

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## Martin Jonas

Jennifer -- that's a lovely Salsedo!  Not that low-end either: it came with a leather "clown shoe" type of case, which were distinctly higher-end than the more usual pressed fibre cases and it has the MOP bridge position markers which the base models don't.

Salsedo was a respected maker, and while I haven't played one myself, at least one Cafe member has one that he's very fond of.  He also gets a number of favourable mentions in the Sparks book "The Classical Mandolin".

Have fun with it!

Martin

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## Jennifer

Thank you, Jim and Martin and Jake. Martin, "Clown shoe" is the perfect way to describe the crazy case! It's gotten a lot of comments, even from the kind folks at Gryphon where I took it to be serviced and restrung. It has turned out to be a wonderful instrument! Looks like it will be my "main squeeze" from now on.  :Mandosmiley:  

I appreciate the information about the case and the MOP bridge position markers - I will check out the Sparks book, too.

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## Jim Garber

Boy, you folks make me have to buy something to keep this thread going. Just received this ostensible Fratelli Vinaccia. A pleasing model with a nicely flamed maple bowl, alternating pearl border, attractive nicely grained spruce top with no cracks (as far as I can see). The poor thing has been thru a bunch including what looks like some amateur repairs. Let's see:

1. Missing nut
2. Apron (is that what we call it?) coming off on one side
3. Missing original bridge which was glued onto the top at one time
4. Nonoriginal clamshell tailpiece (good for parts tho -- nicely engraved)
5. Pearl ornament on the back of the headstock was screwed in.
6. Non-original (I think) fretboard
7. I think non-original rosette
8. Pretty sure that the pickguard was tortoise-celluloid originally
9. I am not too sure of the label -- it looks like the date says 1865 which is highly doubtful -- I would think more like 1890-1900. It is possible that the "restorer" put a printed label in there. However, I do think that it is a genuine Vinaccia -- it has the lightness and the apron is shaped similarly to others i have in my file.

Then again, I could have been fooled. Pictures attached.

Anyway, I hope to have this one restored to its former glory.

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few more pics of the Vinaccia.

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## Tavy

Love the back on that one - restored to it's former glory that one could be stunner.

Be sure to post some more pics when you're done!

John.

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, John. Now, to find a luthier qualified and willing to work on it in North America. BTW I did find the bridge. I must have fallen out of the packing and I almost stepped on it this morning. I think I would put a new fretboard on it and have the rosette redone. Most of the ones I have seen have mastic and pearl inlays. This one looks pretty amateurish.

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## Jim Garber

Closer look at the Vinaccia: I now see that the "luthier" actually glued a second fretboard over the original one.

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## Hiin

Helping to keep this thread alive:

Here are some pictures of my mandola (otherwise known as octave mandolin).
Just bought it about three months ago. Made in 2009.
The maker is Kawada, which probably you never heard before. He is one of a few handmade mandolin maker in Japan.

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## Jim Garber

I might as well post pictures here of my newly acquired 1904 Embergher #3.

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## brunello97

I love scallops, Jim.  Fresh from the sea, potatoes or on bowlbacks.  Bob will be shocked to hear this, but seeing a rw Embergher is actually very refreshing.  And in my own uninformed opinion, I tend to appreciate this headstock more than the bottle-opener version on the higher-end models.  Same with the subdued strike-plate.  I'll curb my design enthusiasm but for Cristofaro and the folks from Catania.  Nice score.  Get it ready.

My apologies for leaping over your post Hiin.....what more can you tell us about your Kawada?  It looks lovely.

Mick

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## Hiin

> My apologies for leaping over your post Hiin.....what more can you tell us about your Kawada?  It looks lovely.
> 
> Mick


Thanks Mick. 

What more I can tell about my Kawada?
Umm...lets see. 
1. It projects the sound nicely
2. The turn in the head is quite unique, one of the reason why I bought it
3. Because of the head, usual mandola cases dont fit, so I took me some time to find a fitting case.

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## Jim Garber

I have been trying to find a case for my 1974 Calace mandola (also known in the US as an octave mandolin). i assume it is a lot easier in Japan to find cases for these instruments.

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## Tavy

Two lovely instruments at once - that OM is expecially nice!

John.

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## Martin Jonas

Lovely photos of the Embergher, Jim.  I see it has the misspelled name stamp on the headstock ("Emberger" without "h") -- it's always struck me as strange that Luigi would be happy to let them go out like that, but fortunately it's been confirmed a few times on the Cafe that these are indeed authentic, misspelling and all.

It'll be interesting to see how the tone compares to your "Tipo A" once you have it in playing condition.  

Martin

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## JeffD

Hiin that is a lovely instrument. I love that scroll. Litte touch of uniqueness. I was looking at a picture of a Kawada D-60 mandola, with the scroll on the peg head in the conventional direction. 

Kawada makes some beautiful instruments.

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## Jim Garber

The scroll on the mandola reminds me a lot of early banjos (see below).

As for Embergher mispelling... I have a feeling that he was a thrifty craftsman and had a stamp made with the mispelling and did not want to spend the extra money to have it corrected until later. Either that or perhaps people mispronounced his name with the "h" so he left it off intentionally. 

This mandolin is pretty appealing to me because it is early which means that the signature is actually Luigi's and more likely he did the bulk, if not all, of the work on it. I also found out that this mandolin by its serial number was in the shop, maybe even on the bench next to the celebrated Embergher mandoliola (mandola in US terminology -- tuned CGDA) owned by Silvio Ranieri. As you can tell, I love getting into the minutiae of these vintage instruments, each with their own story, hidden in the details.

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## Bruce Clausen

> As for Embergher mispelling... I have a feeling that he was a thrifty craftsman and had a stamp made with the mispelling and did not want to spend the extra money to have it corrected until later. Either that or perhaps people mispronounced his name with the "h" so he left it off intentionally.


Emberger (no 'h') is the German form of the name.  An Italian would need to add the 'h' to get his neighbours to pronounce it correctly.  So Luigi may have used one form of the name for his signature (local use), another for his trademark (international use).  Maybe.

BC

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## Jim Garber

That is quite possible, Bruce, esp in the early days. The only thing is that during the Period of Mispelling all examples have that stamp and so he would not have distinguished between domestic or export. Perhaps, once he became known everywhere he changed it to the correct spelling for where he lived (Arpino, Italy). Who knows?

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## Schlegel

> Emberger (no 'h') is the German form of the name.  An Italian would need to add the 'h' to get his neighbours to pronounce it correctly.  So Luigi may have used one form of the name for his signature (local use), another for his trademark (international use).  Maybe.
> 
> BC


I think this is very likely.  In the north of Italy, they are pretty familiar with the German tongue, you will see Germanic names and foods, but when you go south, and Rome is very southern, not so much.

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## Hiin

> Hiin that is a lovely instrument. I love that scroll. Litte touch of uniqueness. I was looking at a picture of a Kawada D-60 mandola, with the scroll on the peg head in the conventional direction. 
> 
> Kawada makes some beautiful instruments.


Thanks.

Actually my mandola was the first time instrument that made by Kawada with such unconventional scroll direction. He said he was worried everybody would consider it is strange and will be hesitant to buy it (Japanese people are very resistant to change, they prefer do things the way things were until now).
But my friend and me liked the design. The shop owner told Kawada and he made one more instrument like this for my friend. Seeing how this design has been a hit among mandolin players in my club, maybe it wouldn't be so uncommon anymore in Japan in years to come.

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## ShannonSunshine

Just got my Calace back from Carlo Greco (what a great guy!), I had ivoroid peg buttons put on and chrome bushings put in the peg holes, which were previously misaligned. 







She sounds great now too (thanks, Carlo!): Partita No. 3 Bouree, second half

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## Jim Garber

Nice mandolin and nice playing, Shannon.

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## ShannonSunshine

Thanks, Jim! Scrolling through this thread and seeing all the beautiful instruments you own makes me realize how badly I need a job...  :Laughing:

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## Dfyngravity

Nice mando and nice stack stone wall too.

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## brunello97

> I think this is very likely.  In the north of Italy, they are pretty familiar with the German tongue, you will see Germanic names and foods, but when you go south, and Rome is very southern, not so much.


It is not just the Italians who struggle.    "I would like to buy an Embergher." 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUCDhvbQFmU

Mick

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## Fliss

I've already posted pics in the "classical, medieval, renaissance" area of the forum, but my purchase of a 1910 Calace is a good excuse to post in this thread too  :Smile: 







Fliss

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## Jim Garber

> Here is another interesting one -- at least to me. Not sure of the maker but it is pretty ornate for an American bowlback.


See mine on post #6 (page 1). Here is a pearly bowlback very similar to this pearly one with the same harp player inlay on the pickguard.

>>>I just realized that you can click that small icon in my quote and go right to that quoted post. Nice feature.

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## Jim Garber

Here is an image of that mandolin on eBay.

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## Margriet

Here is my new Embergher nr 3, 1947, bought in Milano, in August. We had to make a new bridge, we copied the old - broken- one. Hendrik van den Broek will work on the frets and the varnish. I enjoy it a lot, playing! It feels like new, though you can see that it has been played in the past. Maybe VERY long ago.

Also today we succeeded in making a Ranieri model plectrum, of old tortoise. To play with a plectrum like that is really an experience, it is very light and clear. You can see the brand new-made plectrum on the photos.

Thanks a lot to Alex Timmerman, who explains on his website www.embergher.com exactly how to make a plectrum like that, and for his enthousiasm and support. Also thanks to cafe, where I could read threads about plectra and where people share their knowledge and experience.

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## Jim Garber

Margriet: Congratulations!! That one is in amazing condition. Enjoy it!!I believe that the Emberghers from that era are exceptional since they were most likely made by by master Cerrone. I have played a few from that time... wonderful!

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## vkioulaphides

MAGNIFICENT! Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!

Cheers,

Victor

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## Jim Garber

I just got this mandolin labelled Rohlfing and Sons, Milwaukee, Wis. It looked like it was in pretty good playing shape and also reminded me a lot of Larson instruments, tho I do not see any reference to this brand as having been made by Larson. I do have a very similar set of jpegs in my files from a Maurer. Please bear with me to look and compare. Note especially the 'collar' at the base of the neck joint and the style of the clasp on the bowl. The inlays on the headstock and the pickguard are very similar but i suppose those could be purchased from one source.

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## Jim Garber

Not the fanciest of these but nicely made, high quality IMHO. Here is the rest of pics for this one.

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## Jim Garber

Now here is the Maurer that resembles this one. Fretboard inlays are a little different and the pickguard has a pearl border, otherwise eerily similar.

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## brunello97

Diego, I am feeling a strong Larson vibe.  In any event, that is one clean bowlback. I love that collar detail.  I have an L+H bowl which has one, not that it has prevented the neck from going south.   Now there is the issue about the potential serial number strategically located on the soundhole brace?  Any sign of that?

Mick

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## Schlegel

Jim, also check out this thread for a Stahl which is certainly a Larson http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...t=larson+stahl

Almost identical to yours.

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## Jim Garber

Yes, different headstock shape and the purfling is more colorful but same engraving on the gear cover, similar collar at the neck joint and ivoiroid on the inside of the soundhole on all of these. I plan on contacting Bob Hartman and see what he says. And i plan on restringing tonight and seeing how it sounds. I may see about doing a repro bridge since the one on their is not original -- you can see a lightening of the top where the old bridge was.

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## brunello97

Glad this arrived looking so good, Jim.  What type of strings do you plan to use?  Any sign of a SN there on the soundhole brace?

Mick

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## MikeEdgerton

I'd say they were made by the same company.

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## Jim Garber

Mick... I looked for the SN and didn't see anything on either brace near to the soundhole. I figure I would first try GHS A240s ultralights then Dogals 92b which sound wonderful on my Vega. I also have a set of Pyramids I should try sometime. I can't recall the gauges tho. I don;t want to waste the expensive strings tho at first.

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## Schlegel

That funny little fingerboard extension on yours, Jim is also a very typical Larson shape.  They didn't always use it, but so far I've not seen anybody else use it.

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## margora

Some of my friends in the classical section will perhaps be pleasantly amused (surprised!) that I have finally acquired a bowlback, a 2004 Calace Model 13.  Very loud, excellent basses, easy to play.

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## Jim Garber

Congratulations, Bob and welcome to the Dark Side.

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## brunello97

You're teasing us, Bob..... It looks very nice. Tell us more.

Mick

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## margora

"It looks very nice. Tell us more."


Not that much more to tell.  It is a standard Model 13, which is one up from the base model (Model 26), 24 frets.  I am the third owner.  Owner #2 is a young musician in NE Massachusetts who sold it because he was moving out of the country.  The original owner apparently bought it on a trip to Naples.  It has virtually no playing wear.  I have it strung with Dogal at the moment (soft tension) and will try Lenzer at some point. 

Based on what I tried out so far, the instrument is very well suited to the early 20th century Italian repertoire (Munier, it's namesake, etc), as well it should.  The tone colors are very good -- I can get a very bright, airy typical bowlback sound, as well as a warmer sound (though not as warm as my Collings).   The construction of these instruments is best described as stout (in this regard it is virtually identical to Victor's model 26), quite a bit heavier than the typical early 20th century American bowlback.  Fit and finish is fine but not up to the level of, say, Richard Walz's Vega copy by Dan Larson, or the Embergers that Het Consort play.  I tend to think that Calace is to mandolins what Ramirez is to classical guitars -- good, solid workhorse instruments.

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## Jim Garber

Bob: You may be able to string those with somewhat heavier strings. I don't know what Victor uses but I believe that the modern calaces are built a little heavier than the vintage ones.

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## margora

"You may be able to string those with somewhat heavier strings."

Possibly.  The Dogals, though, are fine as far as tension is concerned.

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## Jim Garber

I did get confirmation from an expert that the Rohlfing mentioned above is definitely made by the Larsons. I took the strings off and glanced inside tonight. I didn't see this before but there is a Maurer brand on the neckblock. So, this was a Maurer sold by Rohlfing & Sons music store in Milwaukee.

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## Jim Garber

Man, you guys force me to bump this thread from time to time. Now, look what I did...

This is my recently acquired Vega Pettine Special in all but the nameplate. Strange but it is missing the tuner coverplate that in all examples I have seen have said Pettine Special or even Giuseppe Pettine Special. The one that is on there is definitely a Vega coverplate and looks original to the instrument.

And the bridge is a little odd -- it looks like a decent handmade job of ebony with some fret wire added in an interesting compensation pattern.

I wonder about the provenance since it was found in Rhode Island -- maybe bought originally from Pettine's shop? 

Jim

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## Jim Garber

A few more pics of this mandolin.

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## Jim Garber

Here are a couple of comparison pictures with my Vega style 3. Primarily, the Pettine has a maple neck, a zero fret and a body slightly wider, longer by about 1/2 inch and a bowl significantly deeper. Other than the pearl border and the fleur-de-lis inlays, it is actually plainer than my style 3.

I apologize for the quality of some of these photos. It has been way too cold to shoot outdoors these days, so I shot this this evening in my dark family room.

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## Tavy

Wow Jim, that's one nice instrument, so what persentage of US bowlbacks do you own now ?  :Wink: 

Just kidding yours, John.

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## Jim Garber

90% of the US and about 23% of Italy... also just kidding (I hope). The upper level Vegas are among the best of the American bowlbacks. My style three is my backup for classical. Of course I have it strung with Italian strings.

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few more photos -- better ones -- taken outside today... Brrrrrrrrr...

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## brunello97

Very nice, Jim.  I know you are a fan of Vega mandolins, so this one is well deserved.  From the photos, the finish appears in very good condition as if it has been well cased.  Yet you mention that it needs significant work.  What do you think needs to be done?  I hope you can get it up and playable very soon.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

Despite my ingrained caveat to myself and others to avoid bowlbacks with neck problems, I think this one may have one (or two). With the ancient strings, it seems to play all right in the first position but gets harder up the neck. In any case, after I get one luthier's kids thru college, I have to get another one. I always figure the worst so I am pleasantly surprised -- one can only wish. In any case, I think this one would be worth sinking some money into and rightly so.

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## brunello97

A good cause, as long as those luthier kids don't plan on studying Italian, German or French language in college.....I hope it is an easy fix, amigo.  Do Vegas have a dovetail (or similar) neck joint like Washburns and Martins or is their something different on the artist models?  Could make for an easier re-set if it goes that way.

Do you know many of the Pettine models where made?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I guess I should head to my local airport and ask them to xray to see what joint is in the neck. I would think that it is a dovetail. I might not actually need a neck reset. I have to look at it more closely.

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## Jim Garber

> Do you know many of the Pettine models where made?


What mean this?? How many were made? I haven't a clue but more than Abt and Scalzo models, I would guess. I have only seen Eric's Abt and no Scalzo except in catalogs. I think that Pettine had a real following and students in RI. Abt went over to endorse L&H later and I haven't a clue about Scalzo.

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## brunello97

> Do you know many of the Pettine models where made?.........What mean this?? How many were made?


I guess I was wondering how many of the Pettine models Vega made :Wink:   One I have in my files has a SN on the end of the headstock in typical Vega practice. I thought I have seen some references here to Vega SNs viz date-made, but perhaps am mistaken. I was hoping that source may have had production quantities as well. 

Mick

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## Jim Garber

I have a listing of some Vega serial numbers but they are mostly cylinder backs. I have a few mandolin pages from various Vega catalogs but they had an annoying habit of not putting dates on their catalogs. Here is a list of [IMG]Vega and Fairbanks Banjo serial numbers[/IMG]. I am not sure if those are the same.

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## Jim Garber

> I have a listing of some Vega serial numbers but they are mostly cylinder backs. I have a few mandolin pages from various Vega catalogs but they had an annoying habit of not putting dates on their catalogs. Here is a list of [IMG]Vega and Fairbanks Banjo serial numbers[/IMG]. I am not sure if those are the same.


Sorry, I hit the wrong button... Here is the list of Vega and Fairbanks Banjo serial numbers. All right, I will make it easier:




> A.C. FAIRBANKS/VEGA BANJOS
> 
> 67..............................992...............  ..1890
> 1464............................1638..............  ..1891
> ..................................................  ..1892
> ..................................................  ..1893
> ....(No information available)......................1894
> ..................................................  ..1895
> ..................................................  ..1896
> ...

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## n0ukf

> My circa 1900 Washburn mandolin.


How distinctive are mandolin brands to identify them by their features (bowl staves, headstocks, etc)? I have an unlabeled one I inherited from my grandfather that looks very much like this. The bowl staves include a narrow orange-looking strip between them. The head looks the same but mine has black knobs and different shaped tuner plate ends. The sound hole inlay looks about the same but there's none around the edge and the painted on "pickguard" has different lines. Mine also has single dots at 5, 7, 10 and 12th frets. This one also looks very much like it. http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-1800s-Bo...item230d60c604

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## Jim Garber

I also look at pickguard shapes in addition to the list above and when combined might give a hint who the maker might be.

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## n0ukf

Well, here we go then... Grandma said before she died that this mando was over 100 years old, though we could no longer question Grandpa about its history when he and his twin got it. As I was told, Elliott (Grandpa's twin, my namesake) built the case from salvaged materials before he drowned back in the '30s. The D-ring on the tailpiece was my addition scavenged from a pair of shoes, making it easier to attach a strap. The ivory, bone or whatever insert on the bridge was missing a piece until my brother carved a popsicle stick to fill in. some day I'll cut some deer antler to replace the whole insert. The current nut is a piece of phenolic material, the previous nut had the string notches filed too close together for me to play even half way decently with my fat fingers.
   

Here you can see the worst of the bowl stave cracks I reglued a few years ago, all three in the visible darker staves. The center light stave has a crack by the neck but doesn't seem to be getting worse but I'll watch it.

Can you make out enough here to tell who made this, whether Washburn or another? How about age clues? I know it was made before the mid 30s because of the above-mentioned death. 
Would you recommend leaving it as is or refinishing? I stopped using it on a regular basis because in muggy weather the bowl finish would soften and stick to my sweaty shirt.

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## Jim Garber

I would say, at the least, sold by L&H and lower end (painted pickguard). It is quite possible that it was wholesaled to other stores by L&H.

I like your D-ring idea and the handmade case. Being a lower end does not mean it will sound bad tho. Enjoy it and also enjoy its close family history.

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## Jim Garber

I answered in the Post a pic thread. To answer here: I would not bother refinishing. I would say early decades of the 20th century like circa 1910. Prob made by L&H for wholesale trade. I don't think that I have seen L&H catalog mandolins even the lowend ones with painted "pickguards".

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## n0ukf

I'm not familiar with many of the manufacturers. Is there info somewhere on L&H? the forum search says the term is too short. :P

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## Jim Garber

L&H = Lyon & Healy. They are the makers/sellers/distributors various brand names: Washburns, American Conservatory, Leland, Jupiter, Lyon & Healy, etc,. They also made instruments to be sold under store names etc. My theory is that yours is one of those.

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## redhighway

Hi all, this is a great thread and I want to post a picture of my pride and joy and maybe someone can give me more info it, but I can't see how to upload it, help

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## Bill Snyder

Click the Go Advanced button. Type your text and then click the paper clip. A new window opens. Select the file from your computer to upload.

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## redhighway

Thanks Bill. O.K, Where to start. I was hoping someboby, you all seem to know a lot about these old bowlbacks, could help me with the history of mine. I bought it 7 or 8 years ago and it is my pride and joy. I have other style mandolins but I'm afraid they sit on the shelf or get lent out because I love the sound and feel of this one, whatever style of music I'm playing, so much. I play it at my local folk club on the Island, hard as you can see, I've used it to teach children how to play at my local youth centre and I practise on it everyday. But, I have always wondered about it's history. I bought it in Germany, there is no writing inside but there is a word that I can't read, to follow, on the base of the fretboard. The eagle has the most beautiful coloured inlay made of what looks like some kind of shell, it changes colour in the light. There are 15 strips on the back if this helps, I would love to have it repaired but I'm loath to go without it while it's being carried out. I will post a photo of the word or name that is written on the fretboard as soon as my new strings arrive because it's even harder to read with the strings on. I have tried googling what I thought it said but with no joy,
many thanks 
Jim

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## Tavy

If it's German , and with no name, then the chances are it was made in the GDR period when folks weren't allowed to put their name on them (communism and all that).  What's the back look like?  Does it have the typical German dished back, often with some fancy marquetry going on?

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## redhighway

Hi, there doesn't appear to be anything fancy anywhere else on the mandolin. It seems strange that someone would go to the trouble of making a beautiful eagle like and leave the rest of it plain. The tuning pegs are Ivory, I don't know if this helps in dating it. The letters in the word at the base go something like this. GOLDKIANL but until I get the strings out the way and rub something dark over them, the G could be an S and the I could be L. Also, even though I bought it from Germany is there a chance it made it's way there from somewhere else?

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## Jim Garber

The word is "Gold Klang" which (I think) was a German brand name. I think it translates to golden tone or golden sound. Here is a catalog page with the bird pickguard one pictured. Yours may have had a slightly different peghead with a hole and the top part broken off.

I don't speak German (there are a few of us bowlheads here who do and will do doubt chime in) but I think it says is is made in the Italian style.

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## Martin Jonas

It's "Goldklang", which translates as "golden tone".  They were a large brand of instruments in Germany in the 1920s and 30s, probably the house brand of a major wholesaler.  I would expect that the instrument itself was made in an anonymous small workshop in the Markneukirchen are of Saxony and rebranded by the wholesaler, that being the typical business model back then.  Your instrument looks very much like one of the ones shown in the catalogue page posted by Jim, which puts it post-1923 as the prices are denoted in Reichsmark (RM) -- it would have been simply "M" for Mark before then.  Prices on the page go from 21RM to 36RM.  Yours cost 30RM, i.e. it was solid middle-of-the-road and no bargain basement.

The German description translates as:

"_Maple, 21 staves, gray in the Italian style_  [whatever that means, maybe "unstained"]_, polished lacquer finish,  scratchplate inlaid in mother of pearl with swallow motif, rope binding, finest workmanship_"

I note that from this description, this isn't quite the same as yours after all -- yours doesn't have 21 staves, and it doesn't have rope binding -- so maybe yours was cheaper than 30RM.

Martin

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## Jim Garber

Thanks, Martin. I knew you would come through. "Schnurrand" translates to rope-binding? Interesting.

Hey, I was not that far off, right?

----------


## Jesse Harmon

Just thought I would update.  I posted a pic of my American Conservatory that served as a decoration on top of a cabinet for a number of years.  I previously had White Bros String shop in Okemos Mi take care of some tuner issues but had not played it.  At first I had hand issues with it, but since acquiring a Rigel and playing that, along with correcting some hand technique problems, I can now play the AC and it sounds more wonderful all the time.  Don't know whether instruments open up when played but I always thought they did.  I always loved the look of these so......... hmmm......

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## redhighway

Hi all, WOW I'm touched that you've been so helpful. I can't believe that I couldn't find anything about it. Where did you get that catalog pic from? I've tried typing lots of variations into google, and I speak a little German! and have never come up with anything. Also, how expensive do you think it would be to have the split in the bowl repaired, and how long would it be off the road for? 
Jim

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## Jim Garber

I have been doing this for sometime and am pretty obsessed with accumulating as many details as I can about these instruments. The crack should not be too much to fix if you find the right person. Also, if you just fix the structure and not care that much about making the repair invisible it will prob cost you somewhat less. In any case, it should not be a big deal.

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## redhighway

Hi, many thanks. I think that finding anyone to repair on the Island I live on would be hard. So...if there's anyone reads this in U.K and you cab give me a ballpark figure I'd love to know, once again many thanks
Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Under 100 Pounds, I'd say, and probably well under.  The repair is fairly simple, but requires a luthier experienced with bowlbacks or lutes, or willing to go outside his comfort zone: guitars don't have staved round backs and therefore don't require the same techniques.  Whereabout in the UK are you?

Martin

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## redhighway

Hi, I'm on the 'always sunny' Isle of Wight. Do you repair bowlbacks? Your playing is outstading by the way.
Jim

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## Martin Jonas

Thanks, Jim.  I do a few hack repairs on cheap bowlbacks, but wouldn't do it on my better instruments -- I give these to a luthier.  I don't know any luthiers on the Isle of Wight or in Hampshire.  I can recommend Jon Springall of Devon Strings in Exeter (he used to be a regular here on the Cafe and has worked on both my Embergher and my Vinaccia), but that's not particularly close to you.  South Coast, anyway...

Martin

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## redhighway

Hi  Martin, thanks for that. As it happens I go to Devon 3 0r 4 times a year for my other passions. I'll look him up and see how much it would cost.
Jim

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## mlewis17

This was a gift from my Italian father-in-law, I play it every day.  The label inside says "craftsman made"  "Marathon"  "Model No. 80"  It's not terribly fancy but the inlay is good.  Anyone know anything about this, where it came from?  Thanks

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## Jim Garber

> This was a gift from my Italian father-in-law, I play it every day.  The label inside says "craftsman made"  "Marathon"  "Model No. 80"  It's not terribly fancy but the inlay is good.  Anyone know anything about this, where it came from?  Thanks


Looks to me like a product of the Suzuki factory, Japanese made and copy of Calace. Prob 1970s, at least most seem to be that.

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## mlewis17

Thanks, that sounds right.

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## mlewis17

You were absolutely correct, it's a Suzuki M80 model--it's odd that it is labeled "Marathon."  I think you can still get them, although the models they are making now are expensive.  http://www.suzukiviolin.co.jp/catalog/cat.html

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## Jim Garber

I have seen Suzuki's under a number of names including Kent, Cortez, and Commdore qand prob a few others I can't recall at the moment.

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## Jim Garber

Really... just another excuse to bump this thread...

According to reliable sources the only instruments by Philip Interdonati, an Italian immigrant to the US (New York area) that have been discovered have been a couple of amazing guitars and two violins that are owned by descendants. This is (so far) the only mandolin done in his inimitable style that exists. 

I believe that the fretboard is not original -- it should have been thinner and extended similar to that on ones made in Napoli. Neck construction is more similar to Italian makers of the period rather than American.

Ornamentation is a little over the top for me, however I am hoping that tonally it will be unique. The two guitars that exist supposedly sound and play wonderfully.

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## Jim Garber

Here are a few more to round out the set.

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## eastmountain

I don't have it anymore, but my first mandolin was a bowlback I found hanging on a wall in an antique store.  It was labeled with a metal tag on the slotted headstock: "Heinrich Moritz Schuester, Markneukirchen Germany."  Maple bowl, 22 staves if I remember correctly.  Inlaid ebony pickguard with flowers and vines. Top was spruce and split to pieces.  Not much of a mandolin, but I wish I still had it.

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## Tavy

Wow Jim, if it sounds as good as it looks it'll be a cracker!

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## Ed Goist

*circa 1900 John Brandt Bowlback*
She (_Anne-Sophie_) is now officially mine, though she's in Max Girouard's shop for her 111 year tune-up and make-over before she'll get to me.
More pictures to come!

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## Jim Garber

Ed, what kind of make-over? It looks pretty nice already.

----------


## Ed Goist

Let's see...
* Install new tailpiece (Most likely German kidney-shaped tailpiece from Dave Hynds - I LOVE this tailpiece)
* Repair very small crack on soundboard
* Standard set-up stuff: level bridge to soundboard, adjust for intonation, polish frets, install new strings (GHS X-Lite Classical), etc.

----------


## brunello97

Very nice, Ed, thanks for posting (and Jim, too!) A bit of a contrast between these two bowls. I think there is room for a bit of exuberance in the Loyal Order. I think it is a matter of finding just the right sport coat to play the Interdonati in. 

Ed, I think the Brandt looks great. I can't quite tell from the photos, are there no position dots?  It certainly helps give the neck an even more attenuated look. Are there side dots a la Martin?

Mick

----------


## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> Ed, I think the Brandt looks great. I can't quite tell from the photos, are there no position dots?  It certainly helps give the neck an even more attenuated look. Are there side dots a la Martin?
> Mick


Hi Mick:

Thanks much! I'm very excited to have her join the fold!

No, the Brandt does not have position markers on the fretboard, but it dose have the side dots. Here is a pic Max took to show the current action, which also happens to display a couple of the side dots:

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Ed. The action looks robust in your photo. Does Mr. Girouard have a plan for that?

Mick

----------


## Ed Goist

Hi Mick: Yes - Max noticed that the bridge is currently not making full contact with the top (see cool attached pic).  This will be fixed by re-fitting the bridge to the top. This re-fitting and re-shaping of the bridge to the soundboard will also bring the action down. Also, he pointed out that with the action measuring around 0.075 to 0.080 there will be plenty of room to bring it down without fret  buzz.

BTW, I am really glad I had the instrument sent directly to Max. I think this was a smart move.

----------


## Ed Goist

> ...snip...
> BTW, I am really glad I had the instrument sent directly to Max. I think this was a smart move.


Speaking of this, look at the excellent work Max has done with the small crack in the soundboard, and with the fretboard!

Top Crack & Fretboard Before:

 



Top Crack & Fretboard After:

----------


## Jim Garber

He better watch out... he may find a pile of bowlbacks on his doorstep.  :Smile:

----------


## Ed Goist

I'm excited to say that Max has just finished the work on my Brandt bowlback!

As you'll see, Max installed a new German kidney-shaped tailpiece we bought from Dave Hynds (thanks Dave!), leveled the bridge with the soundboard, and lowered the bridge. He cleaned-up the fretboard (as shown above), and (after leveling a couple of frets) was able to significantly lower the action. (Mick, Max was able to get the action down to just a hair over 0.040" [which was the 'target' I requested]).
Well, here she is:

 

 

Needless to say, I am excited that she'll be home soon. 
Once I get to know her, I'll be sure to post a clip!

----------


## Jill McAuley

Nice! Look forward to hearing that one!

Cheers,
Jill

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## brunello97

That is good news, Ed. I look forward to seeing/hearing more about your Brandt.

Mick

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## Ed Goist

> I'm excited to say that Max has just finished the work on my Brandt bowlback!...snip...
> ...snipped a few pics...
> 
> 
> Needless to say, I am excited that she'll be home soon. 
> Once I get to know her, I'll be sure to post a clip!


Well, here I sit looking at the box containing the Brandt.
She was delivered today, but sat on our outside porch for several hours before my wife brought her inside about 5 hours ago. 
It was quite chilly here today (mid 30s F / 2-3 C), and she is over 110 years old, so...Here I sit looking at the box.
The box is still slightly cool to the touch, so I'm thinking of waiting until tomorrow to open...
Boy, this is really a tough wait (tougher that with my previous instruments for some reason [?]), but based on her age I'm thinking this is a good precaution.
Thoughts?

----------


## Jim Garber

So... ed... did you finally open it at 1am?

----------


## Ed Goist

Jim, I unveiled the Brandt late last night after a difficult eight hours of acclimatizing the box. When I performed the "hand test" at 10:30 pm, everything felt to be at room temperature. 

First off, let me say that I am somewhat shocked by the exceptional quality of this mandolin. The build quality and the light weight construction combine to make for a very attractive and responsive mandolin. A few general observations:

* I'd call the condition "excellent plus". I clearly had a very generous seller.
* As I mentioned, this mandolin is light…Incredibly light. Build quality and responsiveness rivals modern mandolins in the $2,500+ range. No kidding.
* The old, original leather "clown shoe" case is _too cool for school_, but not very practical, and a little delicate for real-world use. If I plan to ever transport the mandolin, a new high-quality case will be in order.
* In my opinion, the neck on this mandolin is quite fast, and anything but "clunky". I'd say it has a narrow 'slight oval' profile, and the nut width is quite narrow (I measured it at about 1 1/32" with a ruler, and the string spacing is no more than 7/8" between outside G and outside E!). It will take me a little time to adjust to this narrow width, but it sure makes fretting adjacent courses with one finger a joy!  :Smile: 
* Thanks to  Max Girouard's exceptional pro set-up I found the playability to be quite remarkable. This was somewhat of a surprise to me. I expected that the Brandt would be kind of a novelty, and a second or third instrument that I'd play, but not very often. However, due to the exceptional set-up, the fine responsiveness, and the surprisingly friendly neck; I'm thinking that the Brandt is in for a lot of playing time!
* I really like the feel and ease of play of the GHS extra-light classical strings (though, being brand new, they are still quite bright).
* This mandolin has a flat fretboard, so I expected to only be able to tolerate short playing sessions. My tendonitis tends to flair-up quickly and severely whenever I play a flat board on a modern mandolin. However, due to my enthusiasm over the Brandt I played her for 2+ hours late last night, and have experienced no pain! I'm thinking the incredible action Max was able to achieve on this mandolin (~.040" at the 12th fret), combined with the 'finger friendly' extra-light strings makes for pain-free playing even on a flat board! YAY!
* Open chords strummed up over the fretboard sound like angel song!
* Downsides/challenges:
 - Developing a good and comfortable playing position for the mandolin. This will take some getting used to with my small lap and generous gut.  :Redface: 
 - John Brandt put reverse gear tuners in his patented headstock…*Not* my favorite.  :Frown: 

Overall I'd rate this mandolin as a *solid "A"*. Also, I'd have to say this is by far the greatest mandolin value I've experienced…By a mile. 

I'm sure that the abundant supply, the lack of modern popularity, and the unique tone keep the prices on these vintage bowlbacks down. However, the overall quality of this instrument is miles beyond what I have invested in it.

I look forward to getting to know her better. I hope to upload a clip this weekend. 

Oh, and my favorite pieces to play on her so far are JS Bach's _Joy of Man's Desire_ and _Minuet in C_, and Jay Ungar's _Ashokan Farewell_.

_(sorry for the long post...I got a little carried away )_

----------


## brunello97

Jim, it sounds like the Loyal Order has a new cult, I mean club, member.  :Wink: 

Be careful, Ed, these bowls grow on you and soon your other mandolins will be barking for your attention.  I'm glad it has worked out so well.  I wonder if the shorter scale helps out with reducing the hand pain after extending playing sessions?  When I switch back and forth from one of my Gibsons to the a bowl it takes a little up front stretching exercises.  Admittedly, though my old A is doing the most sulking right now.

Mick

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## Jim Garber

bowled over

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## mtucker

_Aren't there other names for them...?...perhaps in (romantic) italian or something... when i say it fast 5 times it sounds sort of funny and i catch myself reaching for the toilet handle...._

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## Ed Goist

Mick, one thing I definitely did notice about the shorter scale (what is it, about 13"?), is that I was frequently over-reaching (landing on the fret itself) at the 5th, 6th & 7th frets last night. I found this ironic as this is exactly what happened to me when I first started playing the mandolin having come over from guitar.

mtucker, maybe 'Neapolitan', but I believe this term actually refers to a a subset of bowlbacks which would include my Brandt? 

Anyways, it doesn't seem that the word _"bowlback"_ is regarded as a derogatory term by mandolinists who play them (whereas _"taterbug"_ is often seen as a derogatory term).

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## Jim Garber

The outside world might call all bowlbacks Neapolitan but we bowlheads only call ones made there or of similar construction by that name. Roman mandolins are different in a few ways tho still bowlbacks. I like that term because it is very generic and distinguishes from the other mandolins: carved tops and flatbacks. It woukld even include the German style of mandolin.

Some folks do call them roundbacks but there is also the Portuguese style which is rounded but sort of partway between flatback and bowlback.

----------


## Ed Goist

Jim, looking over the Brandt very closely last night I noticed a very slight natural cant to the soundboard just below the bridge (maybe of about 2° or so), instead of the more noticeable 'bend' I've seen on the soundboards of some other bowlbacks.

What are some of the tonal differences caused by the different soundboard shapes on bowlbacks (flat, slight natural bend, noticeable bend), and what is the contemporary wisdom as to what is preferred?

----------


## Jim Garber

Whatever sound good.

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## Ed Goist

Here are a few more pics of my Brandt:

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## brunello97

Ed, I am not a luthier, just a ham-handed tinkerer and I am sure you can get more informative (and factual) information from conversations in the 'builders' area. My understand of the 'cant' in bowlbacks and their flatback/canted top successors here in the USA is that the cant helps produce a sharper string break angle over the bridge. Comp the cross section of a canted top mandolin and the tall bridge/fretboard geometry on a Gibson or L+H archtop and you can get a sense of the strategy.  Sharper string break angle helps induce more downward force on the bridge, as I understand it, and more energy into the top.  That we see a variety of such angles across the range of bowlbacks, flatbacks, flat-tops etc. has as much to do with construction logics as anything else.  The goals of the geometry appear to be similar.  The arch or curvature across the top is primarily structural (like a pre-tensioned concrete bridge beam.) This also varies in radius from the quite pronounced to the 'relatively' flatter.  I have had some USA bowls that have been almost entirely flattened out by string pressure and others quite flat through what appears to be errant (flatter) geometry in the profile of the bowl itself. Pretty hard things to make when you start to dissect them.  Just like a great hand-carved archtop.  To think you can get a very good bowlback mandolin (rosewood, mahogany, select spruce) with that much craft for what? $200? Promise that you will keep it a secret......

Mick

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## Ed Goist

Thanks Mick, excellent information!

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## michaelpthompson

> Some folks do call them roundbacks but there is also the Portuguese style which is rounded but sort of partway between flatback and bowlback.


Somebody called my Ovation a roundback the other night, so I'm not sure there a term that's totally non-ambiguous.

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## Tavy

> Jim, looking over the Brandt very closely last night I noticed a very slight natural cant to the soundboard just below the bridge (maybe of about 2° or so), instead of the more noticeable 'bend' I've seen on the soundboards of some other bowlbacks.
> 
> What are some of the tonal differences caused by the different soundboard shapes on bowlbacks (flat, slight natural bend, noticeable bend), and what is the contemporary wisdom as to what is preferred?


I'm not sure there is any conventional wisdom, but here's a couple of observations:

On the Neapolitan mandolins, the neck is always in a straight line with the top - in fact underneath the neck veneer the top often extends all the way up the neck to form a sort of sandwich/laminate construction, which is part of what gives the neck enough strength.  As a result a steepish cant is required to give a decent break angle over the bridge.  Combined with an often high arch on the top, this gives a _very_ stiff/strong top, and presumably gives these their characteristic trebbly sound.

I'm not so familiar with the US made instruments, but many seem to have cant's so low they're barely discernable, also lower arches on the top.  I assume they don't continue the top up through the neck, and as a result can have a slight neck angle to generate some bridge-break angle?  The couple I've handled seem to have chunkier necks than _some_ of the Neapolitans - a few of which have quite crazily slim necks.  Also the better US ones seem to have more bass response...

All just different styles I guess.... Oh and the German ones are different again!

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## brunello97

Nice to have you join the conversation, John, with your experience at hand. The cant on American bowls that I have seen or worked with seems to vary a lot from instrument to instrument as well as between makers.  I have an L+H American Conservatory bowl on my work table now and the cant is every bit as steep as on my everyday player Lanfranco. My Ditson/Vega and Favilla have similar strong break angles. No surprise these are the ones that I have kept because they sound so good.  I also had a Rudy Ciani/Galiano that had almost no cant.  It wasn't a matter of the top sinking, you could trace the perimeter of the bowl and see that the geometry didn't even allow for one.  I had a Martin bowl for awhile with such a sunken top that it was like a potato chip because of the severe cant geometry at the bowl rim edge.  The lack of consistency across the tens of thousands made seems to me a blend of design, construction methods and human intention or error. 

The Neapolitan necks are an amazingly curious design evolution.  Softwood construction on many I have seen, with laminated top overlay-very strange indeed-also of softwood and then wrapped in a decorative veneer. Someone here once implied that added some structural stiffness but that is wishful thinking-it is paper thin. All super slim and lightweight.  No wonder Sig. Embergher went for the one piece neck-head construction.  Still, everything seems in balance and the whole instrument resonates so well.  Midwest made US bowls seem so much stouter (Vegas and Favillas share some of that lightweight Italian qualities.)  Hardwood necks and thicker everything. You don't see as much of that common top sink/neck rotation as on the trade level Neapolitan bowls but the trade off is in the responsiveness and sound profile. I have never seen the top overlay method on a US bowl, but that doesn't mean it wasn't tried, maybe in some of the smaller east coast shops that had a lot of Italian immigrants working. Typically, though not exclusively, a dovetail joint between neck and block.  Martin, of course, has an awesome one.  My bowl playing technique has improved enough that I am enjoying getting around on the thinner neck profiles much more now. (I have very large hands.) 

It is so great that you and Dave H hang out here and share your knowledge, skill and experience.  I am continuously amazed at the design, structure, technology, materials, and craft of these bowlbacks. I have a couple bowlback mandolas that need to be re-topped and all sorted out this summer.  I am looking forward to that work and no doubt will be pestering you guys for some advice.....

Mick

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## Martin Jonas

I recently got the fancier of my two Umberto Ceccherini bowlbacks back from my mother, who instead borrowed my Giuseppe Vinaccia. So, I took the opportunity to record a couple of Neapolitan songs on it -- appropriate in time and space to the instrument. This one has the suspended second soundboard and it makes for an interesting tone, a slightly amplified or reverby tone character if that makes any sense. Pretty loud, and very responsive with a bright sharp attack.

"Ciribiribin":



"Rosamunda" (aka "Beer Barrel Polka"):



Martin
(also posted in my Embergher videos thread over in the classical forum -- apologies to those who see this twice)

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## michaelpthompson

Great clarity and sound Martin. That's a nice instrument.

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## Gina Le Faux

About a year ago I bought an interesting mandolin from an antique dealer in the UK where I live. The mandolin was labelled "Sentchordi Hermanos, Valencia". The Sentchordi workshop was in operation between 1861 - 1905 and they made guitars and bandurrias and after extensive research we found no evidence that they made any mandolins. When I first saw my mandolin I thought it was either a late 18th century Neapolitan mandolin or a copy of an instrument from that period and I assumed that Sentchordi had made it. When I had a good look at the instrument I couldn't work out the connection with Sentchordi as the mandolin was a lot earlier than 1861. The conclusion I reached was that like many other makers and dealers the Sentchordi brothers had  inserted  the label when they sold the mandolin. The search for the actual maker began and we couldn't find anything that bore any resemblance to my mandolin. It was a chicken and egg situation, we could not find out who made it because we had no makers name! Then, yesterday we had a "Eureka" moment whilst looking at some old threads on the cafe, we were looking for info on Lignatone mandolins. There amongst the posts was a picture of a mandolin that looked like mine and a makers name and a date. I will try and post some pics of my mandolin and I'll put some more information about it's construction and materials.

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## Gina Le Faux

Here are some more pictures of my mandolin. The colour is a bit too blue, these are pics I took with my phone. The pegs are a set that I fitted as there were only a couple of pegs in the mandolin when I bought it.

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## Jim Garber

Welcome, Gina to our little bowlback haven. And isn't it satisfying to find some closure for your search.

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## Gina Le Faux

Hi Jim, Yes it's great to share information with like minded people. I'm so pleased to find another mandolin like mine plus the vital information as to who built it and when it was built.
Gina

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## Bruce Clausen

Nice looking instrument.  Eugene's photos are on p. 4 of this thread. Are those the ones you saw?

I used to have a Panormo guitar built about 1825.  It had a large label inside that said something like "Webb's House of Quality, Calgary, Alta., across from the CNR Station", probably from the 1890s. You get two bits of history for the price of one.

I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear it if you can manage a clip of some sort.

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## Gina Le Faux

Hi Bruce, Yes, I saw Eugene's photographs. I have seen many instruments with dealer / retailer labels in them and I had a hunch that the label was not the makers once I started to do some research. I thought I may have bought a picollo mandolin but once I had a good look at it I started to think it was a gut strung mandolin made in the old style or an early instrument with a later front by the people who's label was inside it. I realised what it was when I found the pic's on this thread. I'll see about putting some sound clips up in a few days. Gina

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## Margriet

Hi Gina,

I am glad to find someone else with a mandolin like these. I have one that is a bit the same. We have not yet made it playable. The machines are not original, there need to be pegs in, like in yours. 
I also have seen the photos of Eugene and the ones in the museum in London, somewhere on cafe, in this thread or in "bowlbacks of note"at the classical section.
Here some photos of mine: ( maybe I posted them already in this thread, then sorry for doubling)




Margriet

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## Margriet

Today I worked on my Embergher Orchestra type Nr 1. It is an early model, as you can see at the symmetric scratchplate. The date is not readable, as there is a label of a german seller glued half over the Embergher label.
When I got it, I noticed a sticky somewhat dark orange varnish on it. Today I cleaned it, set it up.
Now time to play !!!!
The sound is a bit different from the later models, in my ears a bit more delicate and perky. Very bright, warm and crispy, surprising. I love it a lot !


Margriet

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## Charles E.

> Here are some more pictures of my mandolin. The colour is a bit too blue, these are pics I took with my phone. The pegs are a set that I fitted as there were only a couple of pegs in the mandolin when I bought it.


Woah, that is one skinny headstock! A very pretty mandolin.

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## Gina Le Faux

Hi Margriet, Yes, it's nice to see a couple more of these mandolins, thanks for posting the pics. Your mandolin looks a bit broader than mine, mine is quite narrow accross the belly. It measures 6 5/8th inches accross the belly at the widest point and the whole mandolin is just over 22 1/2 inches long. My mandolin does not have a fluted back, it has 11 ribs alternating between medium figured maple and rosewood covered in an orangy / brown varnish. The front of your mandolin is the same as mine except mine is narrower. I have put a set of Aquila Nylgut mandolin strings on my mandolin and it sounds really sweet. The peg hole spacings were large enough for me to fit some baroque violin pegs. There were a couple of what I think were the original pegs in the mandolin when I bought it, they were plain ebony and when I find where I put them I'll post a pic. Gina

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## Margriet

Hi Gina,
yes, your mandolin seems to be in good condition, nice.
I think these mandolins are early French copies of Neapolitan mandolins, like Vinaccia. These were not stringed with gut strings, but with light metal strings. The gut strings were usually on the 6 - course mandolino's, the 6 - string Lombardo 's, 4 - string Brescian, Cremonese etc. I am not an expert, Alex Timmerman has specialized in the history of mandolins, you can read threads about this item here on cafe.
Cheers,
Margriet

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## Gina Le Faux

Hi Margriet,
Thanks for the information. 
Take care,
Gina

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## brunello97

I posted first in the 'bowlbacks of note' thread viz a modest Vinaccia that I purchased a couple weeks back on the ebay.  A lively discussion about an Embergher entry-level models is taking place so rather than interrupt that, I thought to move my new Vinaccia post over here.

A range of curious discoveries now that I've had it awhile.  First off, the Waverly cloud tailpiece seems to be original, or else replaces an Italian tailpiece with precisely the same screw hole geometry. I thought when removing the Waverly I'd find the palimpsest of a four-knob Italian tailpiece.  No such luck.  I only have a few of them around to compare, but none match the Waverly profile.  Very curious.  Did Vinaccia or other Italian makers in the '00 era import tailpieces?  Was this imported into the US and fitted out with components?  A mystery to me right now.

Two holes were apparently drilled directly beneath the bridge and getting my fingers inside the bowl finds two small wood blocks glued to the top directly astride these holes.  Someone trying to rig up an internal pickup?  I've never come across anything like this before.  They do need to come out, but how?

I have been in touch with Dave Hynds about doing a neck reset and that remains a mid-range option. I spent a couple evenings fiddling with an old Italian bridge and with the Vinaccia nut and was able to get the action and playability in surprisingly good shape. Albeit the bridge height is wincingly low.  Thank goodness for the steep break angle in the canted top. (Wasn't there just a conversation about this topic a while back?) 

I strung it up with some GHS ultra lights to try things out.  Still working on refining the intonation, but what a delightful tone it has.  Very splendid in the treble range (the E string is wonderful) as well as in the bass (same goes for the G).  I am going to put some Calaces on it after a couple weeks or so with these.  Hard to put it down. I've only had a few MOR Italian bowlbacks before this one and am thus thrilled. (This was $170 US + shipping.) I am starting to realize what I have been missing.  The tonal balance across the strings is remarkable even on this modest model.  

I have to figure something out viz the scratchplate. I've seen nothing from Vinaccia from this period that is similar to give me a clue on what these were made of.  Some of the modest Calaces from this period have nice rosewood or burled veneer inset scratchplates which look good.  I have some pieces of faux tortoise NC material around as well to give a try.  Without a model to work off of, I am shooting in the dark, so I won't try anything that isn't reversable.  

Lastly, the lost headstock.  A scroll?  A carved head?  I am leaning towards thinking it was a scroll due to some carved overruns on the headstock.  It seems these were in fashion at the time. Curious to see on a modest model, however.  Still a carved head would be great to attempt to reproduce.  Who?  Garibaldi and Queen Margherita are first choices.  Some bunches of dried grapes (Vinaccia, after all) a close second.  

Recommendations (and technical suggestions) are sincerely solicited.  Excuse the long winded post.  This is a very curious addition to the posse.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

Mick: C'mon... how about some better pics and from other angles. Some of the back?

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## brunello97

Uh, sure.  Sorry for the lame photos. It was getting dark out and was using the flash. Will post more in the am.....

Mick

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## porthos

Hallo to all, I'm new here. I hope I soon can post some photos of my Fratelli Carabba bowlback (a 130 years old instrument).




> I have to figure something out viz the scratchplate. I've seen nothing from Vinaccia from this period that is similar to give me a clue on what these were made of.  Some of the modest Calaces from this period have nice rosewood or burled veneer inset scratchplates which look good.  I have some pieces of faux tortoise NC material around as well to give a try.  Without a model to work off of, I am shooting in the dark, so I won't try anything that isn't reversable.


Definitely, tortoise shell (celluloid, now) with mother of pearl inlays




> Lastly, the lost headstock.  A scroll?  A carved head?  I am leaning towards thinking it was a scroll due to some carved overruns on the headstock.  It seems these were in fashion at the time. Curious to see on a modest model, however.  Still a carved head would be great to attempt to reproduce.  Who?  Garibaldi and Queen Margherita are first choices.  Some bunches of dried grapes (Vinaccia, after all) a close second.


A dried grapes decorated half scroll to resemble Vinaccia's name. Never thought at Vinaccia as dried grapes, and I live in Italy. Great idea.

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## Margriet

> I have put a set of Aquila Nylgut mandolin strings on my mandolin and it sounds really sweet.  Gina


Hi Gina,
I phoned with Alex Timmerman and he confrims that usually these kind of mandolins were stringed with brass strings, some of them twisted.
The earlier Neapolitan mandolins had often gut strings for the highest ones, the e. These Eulry 's are from later date and at that time they were stringed with all brass.
I do not know how much it means for you to be historically accurate, but I thought you might want to have this information.
Good to hear that you are playing and enjoying your mandolin ! I wished I could play mine as well, I am curious to hear the sound. Patience......time will come.
Margriet

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## brunello97

> Hallo to all, I'm new here. I hope I soon can post some photos of my Fratelli Carabba bowlback (a 130 years old instrument).


Hello, Porthos....welcome to the Mandolin Cafe. Where in Itay are you from?  I (and others...) would love to see your Carraba. I have only a few in my files and they are great looking mandolins. Very interesting design stylings. 

The curious flourish of the scratchplate shape on my F. Vinaccia makes me wonder if they used something as complex as tortoise shell pattern or perhaps something more elegant as wood veneer.  I think I will cut one of each and have a look on the mandolin itself.  The wine grape/scroll idea does sound good.  (Though the Garibaldi bust is a great challenge.  Think of the beard!  Also we in America don't know enough about Queen Margherita-except for the pizza! She deserves some attention....)

Sì, siamo stati qui per fare il vino da alcuni anni. Non sappiamo mai cosa fare con il vinaccia. Abbiamo intenzione di fare ad una distilleria in modo che possiamo fare la grappa. Forse quest'anno ...

Mick

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## porthos

This is my mandolin. I think it is datable near 1900 (so its age is 110-120, not 130), because the label quotes the Palermo International exposition of 1891, and another "Esposizione italo americana" (Genova 1892).
When in 1975 i got it, I restored the neck (broken near the headstock) ad made a new fretboard. Afterwards, i had to glue two minor breaks in the back.
The other parts are all original.

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## porthos

I live in Catania (yes, the city of Carabba, Puglisi, Sgroi, and many other craftmans-luthiers of the far and near past). Two other images:

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## Gina Le Faux

Hi Margriet,
Thank you for the information about strings. I would like to get a set of strings that are correct for the period my mandolin was made. I do like the softer tone and lack of tension that Nylgut strings give, but I'd like to see what brass strings are like. I will record something on my mandolin and post it shortly. There are still repairs to do on my mandolin, one of the bar frets is missing and when I was restoring the fingerboard I had to fill the hole the fret was in. Now I need to make a fret and set it in place and I'll be able to play some music. How much work does your mandolin need to make it playable?
Gina

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## Margriet

> Hi Margriet, I would like to get a set of strings that are correct for the period my mandolin was made.


I would like as well. We will need to study or ask f.i. Eugene, Alex or maybe Eric (etbarbaric).




> I will record something on my mandolin and post it shortly.


Nice, I am looking forward.




> How much work does your mandolin need to make it playable?


I do not know exactly. We have the issue of removing the mechanics and filling and making holes for the pegs. The strings are too high above the fretboard; we will need to make a new bridge etc. It is not on the "priority list".

I wonder if we should open a new thread, about these mandolins.

Best, until later,
Margriet

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## brunello97

> I live in Catania (yes, the city of Carabba, Puglisi, Sgroi, and many other craftmans-luthiers of the far and near past). Two other images:


Thanks, Porthos, for posting these. That is a beautiful mandolin. Very curious tuner arrangement on the headstock.  Carraba mandolins are extraordinary.  I see a very tapered bridge. Is the fretboard also tapered 'Roman' style?  The neck appears rounded in profile rather than the Roman v-shape.  Can you describe the sound of the Carraba?  What music do you enjoy playing?

I am thrilled that we have someone from Catania to join us at the Mandolin Cafe! We know some things about Catania luthiers, but not nearly enough!  I think Sicilian mandolins are very lovely and unfortunately get somewhat overlooked here. Credo che ci sia un po 'di snobismo qui, sbilanciata verso Embergher, Vinaccia, Calace ecc.  :Wink:  

I have a Puglisi mandola and have always loved their exuberant design styles. Our friend Plami (from Bulgaria) is also a Puglisi aficionado. Do you know much about the history of the company?  They made so many mandolins in so many styles.  In my opinion they have a very fascinating approach towards design. 

Again, welcome to the Mandolin Cafe.  We are glad you found your way here and hope you continue to join the conversations.

Mick

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## Graham McDonald

Coming in late to this conversation, but looking at Gina's mandolin, it could well be a mid 19th century instrument. The fingerboard extending over the soundboard is one clue that it is of that era. There is a French catalog from around that period which showed mandolins with pegs, even though mechanical mandolin tuners were around from the 1830s or so. The soundhole decoration does rather look mid 19th Spanish as well

Just some thoughts

graham




> About a year ago I bought an interesting mandolin from an antique dealer in the UK where I live. The mandolin was labelled "Sentchordi Hermanos, Valencia". The Sentchordi workshop was in operation between 1861 - 1905 and they made guitars and bandurrias and after extensive research we found no evidence that they made any mandolins. When I first saw my mandolin I thought it was either a late 18th century Neapolitan mandolin or a copy of an instrument from that period and I assumed that Sentchordi had made it. When I had a good look at the instrument I couldn't work out the connection with Sentchordi as the mandolin was a lot earlier than 1861. The conclusion I reached was that like many other makers and dealers the Sentchordi brothers had  inserted  the label when they sold the mandolin. The search for the actual maker began and we couldn't find anything that bore any resemblance to my mandolin. It was a chicken and egg situation, we could not find out who made it because we had no makers name! Then, yesterday we had a "Eureka" moment whilst looking at some old threads on the cafe, we were looking for info on Lignatone mandolins. There amongst the posts was a picture of a mandolin that looked like mine and a makers name and a date. I will try and post some pics of my mandolin and I'll put some more information about it's construction and materials.

----------


## porthos

> [...]I see a very tapered bridge. Is the fretboard also tapered 'Roman' style?  The neck appears rounded in profile rather than the Roman v-shape.  Can you describe the sound of the Carraba?  What music do you enjoy playing?
> Mick


The original (rosewood) fretboard was only 3 mm thick. When I made the new one (my first attempt in repair) I started from a 6 mm thick ebony barrel, that is too much. In fact, the action is high, and the fretboard ought to be reduced to 3.5 mm, and refretted. It is hard to use this instrument for agility performances in higher positions.
The neck is V-shaped (a bit rounded V after my treatment) and covered with veneer.
The sound (I hope my poor english helps) is very powerful, loud and crisp, with a good sustain, but it is possible to obtain a ppp tremolo still sounding and present.
I like folk (root) music of my country, and I lead a little amateur group. I'm not a professional player, but we are able to make people dance until they say 'stop, stop, it's too fast'...

About Embergher, Vinaccia and Calace: They are considered real high-class luthiers, i.e. people think that every instrument with those labels is individually designed, and assembled under the direct supervision of the master, from the choice of the wood to the last screw.
In my opinion, it is true only for very few instruments, I think 1 or 2 per cent of the total. 
Since 1850 to 1950 there were a big commerce of half-processed parts (primarily bodies and necks, in numbers of hundreds at a time, but also soundboards, pickguards, fretboards and inlays). So, an aristocratic-labelled instrument can be the result of a whole south Italy partnership.

Vice versa, most of the craftsmen in Catania, while working for the dirty money, really did know how to make quality instruments. Often the quality is aesthetic more than the quality of sound, but many of these "pride" instruments survive and play.

Puglisi (or Puglisi-Reale): I'll post a brief history of the company, that actually involves many years and many actors.

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## brunello97

Ciao, Porthos

From your post:

"Since 1850 to 1950 there were a big commerce of half-processed parts (primarily bodies and necks, in numbers of hundreds at a time, but also soundboards, pickguards, fretboards and inlays). So, an aristocratic-labelled instrument can be the result of a whole south Italy partnership."

......Though some folks here are skeptical, this is what a few of us have long suspected and expressed some conjecture about. Of course we wouldn't know for certain.  Our Greek friend, Victor, has hinted at some inside information about this:  Mandolini, come il vino siciliano, in direzione nord per essere imbottigliato in Toscana (o Napoli!)

"Puglisi (or Puglisi-Reale): I'll post a brief history of the company, that actually involves many years and many actors."

.....We would love to hear more, particularly about Puglisi and other Catania luthiers.

And of course about your music and that of your gruppo.

thank you for joining us,

Mick

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## Gina Le Faux

Hi Margriet, 
It may be good to open a new thread re Eulry mandolins, or early mandolins.
What do you think?
Take care,
Gina

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## Margriet

Hi Gina,
that will be more "fitting" to the topic. I hope, that there will chime in more people. Maybe "early mandolins" is better, that way it can handle about more types, like mandolino's, Brescian, Lombardian, Milanese, Cremonese mandolins. I also was thinking to start a group. But I think a thread will be fine.

Margriet

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## Gina Le Faux

Hi Margriet, 
That sounds good to me. When shall we begin the thread?
Gina

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## Margriet

> Hi Margriet, 
> When shall we begin the thread?
> Gina


Ha, yesterday....
I am available from sunday. Maybe the best is to start the thread within the classical section. Let us find a nice attracking title.
Cheers,
Margriet

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## Gina Le Faux

Here are some pics of another mandolin I have. I think it's an Embergher 5-bis model and I think it's a copy. Has anyone got any idea who made it and when it was made please?

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## Ed Goist

Wow Gina, that is a gorgeous mandolin!
Looks to me like it might have a Mahogany top(?)
Congratulations. Very nice.

----------


## Schlegel

That is not a bad-looking copy, actually, but the bridge and fretboard extension don't look quite right.  I think it feels German. Peghead looks incomplete? Originals would have a square finial.

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## Gina Le Faux

> Wow Gina, that is a gorgeous mandolin!
> Looks to me like it might have a Mahogany top(?)
> Congratulations. Very nice.


Thank you Ed. The belly is spruce and it looks like mahogany because of the colour of the varnish.

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## Gina Le Faux

> That is not a bad-looking copy, actually, but the bridge and fretboard extension don't look quite right.  I think it feels German. Peghead looks incomplete? Originals would have a square finial.


Hi Schlegel, The scroll has been broken off and I think the fingerboard is not the original one. The nut looks as though it has been moved back and a zero fret has been added. The fingerboard on this mandolin is flat and I would have expected it to have a radiused fingerboard. I don't know if the bridge is a replacement or it's the original, it's not a compensated bridge and it's not what I would expect to see on an original Embergher.

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## Schlegel

Yes, the originals are radiused, but a zero fret is normal for an Embergher-type mandolin.  How is the sound?  It does appear well-made at first glance.

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## Gina Le Faux

It is a very well made mandolin, but it's not playable at the moment due to a previous owner putting the wrong strings on it and the action is a bit high as a result. I could probably play it as it is but I would prefer to re-set the neck and put a better fingerboard on it first. There is a small belly crack that needs glueing and studding and I need to check over the inside and see if the struts to the belly are all ok. I have worked on hundreds of violins and quite a few flatback mandolins over the years, but I have not taken the top of a roundback mandolin before and I'm open to any advice as to the best way to do it.

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## porthos

> Hello,
> 
>   I intended to rush myself a little bit more in finding out informations about "Puglisi", in order to make a more comprehensive profile of the factory and the instruments, before to publish it. There`s still a file in my PC with the names of few people "to write to" in order to learn something new or to cross-confirm already known things, but Jim`s request and the hard days which come along my life, make me to share with you the results of my Puglisi research at the moment. I hope it will become more complete in the future.
> 
> 
>   The Company.
> 
>   The Puglisi family has started to build musical instruments in Catania (Sicily) since 1820. Giuseppe(G.) Reale was born in 1852 and was the son of a piano and organ builder. In 1880 he has founded one of the largest Italian factories for manufacturing bowed and plucked string instruments. After 1906 the firm`s name appears already as "G. Puglisi Reale i Figli(o)". Figli(o) means "sons" in Italian. The sons are Concetto Puglisi and Michelangelo Puglisi. Michelangelo Puglisi ran the workshop successfully after 1909 and his son Salvatore also played a part in this. They were active makers of fine violins (mainly), bows, strings, guitars, mandolins and unique cellos. Unfortunately the factory was destroyed during WWII by bombardment in 1943. Although it was rebuilt and some noted instruments were built after this time, many of the original Puglisi family susbsequently migrated from Sicily to USA, Canada and Australia. After Salvatore`s death his son-in-law Buccheri took over the factory. Before he died he gave all the factory tools to Alfredo Privitera, who established the Privitera company in 1962, which makes the instruments like Puglisi used to make. The Privitera factory still exists in Catania and is located on "Via Scuto Costarelli".
> 
> ...


I was trying to post a brief story of the Puglisi (Giuseppe, the father,  and Michelangelo and Concetto, the sons) family of luthiers in Catania, but Palmen Ivanov from Sofia already did that.
Nothing much to add, except for some details.
The firm by Michelangelo and Concetto Puglisi (sons of Giuseppe) was founded in Catania on 4-4-1925, based in Via Carità 59 as a "Fabbrica di mandolini".
Both the two brothers also were violin makers, but they labelled the violins personally.
A few days later (25-4-1925) Luigi, another son of Giuseppe, established a firm also based in Catania, via Messina 184, as "Commercio di pianoforti e fabbrica di strumenti musicali a corda" (Piano trading and stringed instruments factory), ceased 1937.
A daughter of Michelangelo, Graziella Puglisi, on 12-6-1957 established a partnership with Francesco Catania (another recurring name in that years) to establish another firm that lasted only until 29-7-1959 when it was declared insolvent.
Another attempt by Francesco Catania and Graziella Puglisi was started on the same date, 29-7-1959, and ended with another declaration of insolvency on 30-1-1962.
At that time Alfredo Privitera, a former employee of Michelangelo from the age of 12, bought for a symbolic price the tools and the remaining wood and started his firm.
I personally know Alfredo Privitera, now in his seventies. He and his 2 employees fiercely fight the battle of entry level instruments against the almond-eyed competitors. His bowlbacks and flatback mandolins are very simple and cheap. They are serially and rapidly built but they have an exceptionally good sound and playability for their price. 
I also tested a few very high quality mandolins he made with precious wood. From time to time he makes a few of them, and their sound and look are really exciting. He also builds bouzukis, banjos, mandolas and mandoloncellos.

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## Margriet

> A daughter of Michelangelo, Graziella Puglisi, on 12-6-1957 established a partnership with Francesco Catania (another recurring name in that years) to establish another firm that lasted only until 29-7-1959 when it was declared insolvent.
> Another attempt by Francesco Catania and Graziella Puglisi was started on the same date, 29-7-1959, and ended with another declaration of insolvency on 30-1-1962.



I have a mandolin with a brandmark "Graziella". I wonder if this is from the same atelier. To me it seems to be from older date, in the Vinaccia style.

 

Margriet

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## brunello97

I highly doubt this is from the same Catanian builder that Porthos is speaking about, Margriet. I have a label from a 'Graziella' which locates that particular firm in Napoli. (Thought there may be others, it is not an uncommon name....) This label is from a far more modest bowlback than yours, but as Porthos suggests it may have actually been made somewhere else and labeled in Napoli.  Do you have an image of the label in yours?

Porthos, thank you for the update on the Puglisi story. It is amazing how long that tradition has lasted.  Do you have any images of Alfredo Privitera's work to share?  Is his shop in Catania?

Mick

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## Margriet

> Do you have an image of the label in yours?
> Mick


Thanks Mick, 
Unfortunately I have no label, only that brandmark, that your's doesn't seem to have. It is a well made instrument, with (German silver?) between the ribs.

Margriet

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## brunello97

Margriet, the photo you posted appears to have a label visible through the soundhole. It is hard to see but resembles the Graziella label I posted.  Is this a mandolin that you own?

Mick

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## Margriet

O, Mick , I am só sorry !

It is an instrument that we own and I went upstairs to find her. But it was in a place that I could not reach and my dear Beert was not at home. Sorry, sorry  :Redface:  :Redface: 
Stupid me.....

Indeed, it has *eaxactly* the same label as yours......

Do you know something of this maker?

Thanks,
Margriet

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## brunello97

Thanks for checking, Margriet.  I don't know anything more about Graziella. The picture I have is from the web, I don't own that mandolin. I have a collection of images of Italian bowlbacks and am putting together a compendium of the makers.  I know Jim Garber and Dave Hynds both have extensive image collections (and maybe some others do as well.)  Jim and I have spoken about combining our files but haven't done so yet. I would like to format a little 'coffee table book', as we call them, and have some copies printed up. I have begun setting up the basic pages but it will take some time.  I'm always adding to the collection and your 'Graziella' stamp/imprint is a welcome addition!  Thanks!

BTW, does your piccolo mandolin that you have been repairing have a label in it?

Mick

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## Margriet

Soon I will make a photo of the label of Graziella and send it to you. The piccolo, yes, it has a label and a very nice one ! You find it at "bowlbacks of note", recently posted.

Margriet

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## brunello97

Doh. Yes, thank you, Margriet.  I had already double checked the Rubino label. I'm getting sloppy.....

Mick

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## porthos

> ...Do you have any images of Alfredo Privitera's work to share?  Is his shop in Catania?
> Mick


Yes, it's in Catania. 
I'll go to his shop next week, I think, because I need advice about a 1965 Eko banjo with a too much high action, and I'll carry the camera. If he's not overloaded with work, i'll take some photos. Anyway, I could take a photo of a mandolin that a friend recently bought from him.

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## brunello97

Eko! Ecco è un grande nome per gli strumenti.  I have a bowlback made by the Favilla brothers (in New York) probably in the '10s or '20s with "EKO" inlaid in the headstock (along with a Favilla 'Marca Aquila' label.)  I've never been able to figure any connection between this and the EKO company active in the post-war era.  Tom Favilla told me their was an earlier EKO company working in the '20s but didn't have any other information on his family's relationship to them. All kind of confusing.  This Favilla is a great sounding mandolin.  They are an under-appreciated builder here.

I look forward to your photos, Porthos.  Some street views from Catania would be great also.  :Smile:  It is one of the four mythical mandolin cities (Napoli, Roma, Kalamazoo, Catania).  I have never been there but would enjoy a visit one day, hopefully soon.

Mick

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## brunello97

Porthos, is Carlo Privitera related to Alfredo Privitera?  I recently saw this mandolin advertised on ebay.it.

http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLINO-NAPOLET...#ht_689wt_1036

It looks fairly modest, but it is important, as you say, to continue making instruments in the homeland in the face of an onslaught of inexpensive imports.

Mick

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## porthos

Never heard of Carlo Privitera.
You can see a mandolin by Alfredo Privitera (the most basic bowlback) here:
http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLINO-NAPOLET...item5198ad3b67

My banjo is from Eko in Italy, made in 1965. I know the Eko (italian) firm, based in Castelfidardo, the city of many accordion factories, as the first Italian attempt to make cheap and popular string instruments. Eko still exists and resells chinese instruments.

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## porthos

I'm looking for info about this mandolin. No label. Probably 1940-50, probably Geneva or North Italy. Cedar top, maple body and a somewhat strange bone/ebony Greek Mask as a pickguard. The inner side of the body is coated with parchment.
Some pics:

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## Jim Garber

Very interesting. Can you post some pics of the back of  the neck joint and headstock? Round vs. oval holes are relatively unusual for this period. Why do you say Geneva or North Italy? Just curious.

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## porthos

> ...Why do you say Geneva or North Italy?


The mandolin has been hung on a wall for near 50 years in a region of Northern Italy, Piemonte (brunello, it is a great wine land), and now a luthier friend (she makes harps and early music instruments and hates mandolins) is restoring it, mainly varnish work and top repairs.

I posted the only pics I have.

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## Jim Garber

> The mandolin has been hung on a wall for near 50 years in a region of Northern Italy, Piemonte (brunello, it is a great wine land), and now a luthier friend (she makes harps and early music instruments and hates mandolins) is restoring it, mainly varnish work and top repairs.


Hates mandolins.... then why is she restoring it? That should be against the law. She might smash it!!  :Smile: 

Any clue what that mask inlay depicts?

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## brunello97

> The mandolin has been hung on a wall for near 50 years in a region of Northern Italy, Piemonte (brunello, it is a great wine land), and now a luthier friend (she makes harps and early music instruments and hates mandolins) is restoring it, mainly varnish work and top repairs.


Very curious mandolin, Porthos, and I can't offer much help. If I had to guess I'd say it looked Catanese from the headstock shape and the way the fretboard terminates at the round hole.   

Not to be a quibbler, but are you thinking of Barolo as the signature wine from the Piemonte? Nebbiolo based wines thrive there (I love the word....nebbio) such the great Barbarescos. Also wonderful wines from there are Barberas and Dolcettos, the later particularly hard to find in the US and typically overpriced.  I'm very fond of them. We've driven up through that area a number of times and it is beautiful. My wife makes a great hazelnut cake that she learned from a woman up there. From my experience, Brunellos are Tuscan wines, from down near Montalcino.

Mick

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## porthos

To be precise: she hates _playing_ the mandolin. I think that when she wants to pluck some strings, she plays her psaltery, or her many harps.

I'm not skilled at all in classical greek theater masks, and I think that a mask on a mandolin means only "this deals with art".
However, this kind of grotesque triangular masks (that are called "sphenopògon" or "wedge bearded") were used for characters like old men or slaves.

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## brewcrew82

purty dern fancy, a work of art, good luck. Im sureit will sound as nice as it looks.

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## roady43

Hello
Just found mandolincafe some days ago and like to introduce myself by presenting some pictures of my recently acquired "La Gioiosa" made by Klaus Knorr. As everybody here will recognize it is one of those modern German style instruments. It is nearly brand new and has rarely been played yet. Fortunately the fret board is not extremely broad which is an advantage for me because I don't have big hands and my main instrument is the violin. I bought it from a friend who had 2. I took it because of the sound quality which I like very much and its beauty. After 3 weeks of daily playing it is developing well. There will be done some tiny adjustments to the saddle and the bridge to fit my needs even better...

roady43

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## brunello97

Welcome, Roady. Thanks for sharing images of your new mandolin. It is nice to get a good look at one of these modern German instruments.  Is that maple (ahorn) on the back? Very pretty.

La Gioiosa, eh? That's wonderful. I've been feeling a bit that way myself this week.

Mick

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## Ed Goist

Roady; welcome to the Cafe.
Wow - What a beautiful mandolin!
I love the overall look, and especially the slot-head.
Does the fretboard have a radius, or is it flat?
Thanks;
Ed

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## Tavy

That's one lovely looking instrument - congratulations!

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## roady43

Thank you all!
Yes the bowl-back is maple (the friends Knorr mandolin is of rosewood) and the fretboard is flat (I guess this is German standart). During the month of May I had the chance to borrow an as beautiful Seiffert from the same person (we played together several performances). Must be one from his last working period (2001). It was maple as well, very similar build but had a wider fretboard (that really was a challenge for me!). The sound was softer and not so "substantial" in the lower registers (D/G string).
More about Seiffert here in the forum:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ffert-mandolin 

The Knorr "La Gioiosa" weights less which makes it a bit easier to keep. Still, I need a rubber cloth to prevent those slippery bowl-backs to turn wherever they like... The sound is much defined and focused, sustain is like on a Steinway, it carries very far (I think because of the strong overtones) and some friends prefer to enjoy the sound more keeping some distance. I do not play with these German rubber plectrums (didn't even know they exist until I got one with the Knorr) but with a approx. 0.7mm kind of celluoid pick which I cut and file to the desired shape (still testing).

roady43

----------


## roady43

Here comes a cute little mostlikely German made Mandolin (ex GDR, Vogtland 70ies?)  with some interesting features.

The maple back has uniquely "arranged" ribs.  Does anybody know other instruments with a similar configuration? The side ribs show some slight birdseyes. The curved (!) fretboard is extremely strange and rather uncomfortable to play (one never reaches the wood). I made a lower bridge  and it is better now but I really don't know who can play on such high frets seriously? Or is it only me wondering?

I think the all-in-all concept of this instrument could be influenced by Roman models. Several parts of the instrument are marked with the same number (e.g. under the bridge, on struts). It is very carefully crafted, only the frets show some raw spots in the highest positions. The spuce top shows 1 gued crack on the right and another one in the middle wich probably has been glued from inside (it doesn't move so far!). The sound is sweet and elegant.

roady43

----------


## Jim Garber

I think the frets on this one are a way to introduce some radius to the fretboard without touching the actual wood. I believe that student model Emberghers have that set up with the radiused bar frets.

----------


## delsbrother

Is the way the ribs are arranged (in a chevron pattern) common?

----------


## roady43

> I think the frets on this one are a way to introduce some radius to the fretboard without touching the actual wood. I believe that student model Emberghers have that set up with the radiused bar frets.


Yes it seems that on some Embergher student (A-?) models this is similar. On mine the wood still has a curve but not as pronounced as the frets. BTW the fretboard is some milimeters higher on the G string than on the E string side. Even the scratch plate is shaped very similarly and there is a zero fret too. It has 27 frets which I think is rare on student instruments.

roady43

----------


## roady43

> Is the way the ribs are arranged (in a chevron pattern) common?


That's what I was wondering about. I couldn't find pictures of mandolines from this perspetive. Maybe  "mantled" bowlbacks are build the same way beneath the bottom cover.

roady43

----------


## Schlegel

> That's what I was wondering about. I couldn't find pictures of mandolines from this perspetive. Maybe  "mantled" bowlbacks are build the same way beneath the bottom cover.
> 
> roady43


It's not the usual way, no.   Most often the staves come more or less to a single point, but there are variations.

----------


## roady43

Now since I made a new bridge (not the one on the pictures) I'm getting used to play with these high-heel frets. At least the string position is fine now. It still feels strange but it doesn't make playing impossible any more. It's like walking on a grid. I'm more and more convinced that the mandolin was influenced by the Embergher student model A. The intonation is extremely good (I would say perfect) through all positions and octaves - this is very gratifying and was not self-evident, specially for an Ebay cheapo...

roady43





> Here comes a cute little mostlikely German made Mandolin (ex GDR, Vogtland 70ies?)  with some interesting features.
> 
> The maple back has uniquely "arranged" ribs.  Does anybody know other instruments with a similar configuration? The side ribs show some slight birdseyes. The curved (!) fretboard is extremely strange and rather uncomfortable to play (one never reaches the wood). I made a lower bridge  and it is better now but I really don't know who can play on such high frets seriously? Or is it only me wondering?
> 
> I think the all-in-all concept of this instrument could be influenced by Roman models. Several parts of the instrument are marked with the same number (e.g. under the bridge, on struts). It is very carefully crafted, only the frets show some raw spots in the highest positions. The spuce top shows 1 gued crack on the right and another one in the middle wich probably has been glued from inside (it doesn't move so far!). The sound is sweet and elegant.
> 
> roady43

----------


## sonicbaker

I found this Mayflower on my father in-law's shelf collecting dust (for about 50 years.) He's not a player and just had it as a decoration since the 60's when he obtained it. The original pickguard was brittle and much had already fallen off, so I replaced it. Otherwise, it was in great shape.  Here's a link to the whole set of pictures.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sonicba...7627587500524/

and a sound sample

http://snd.sc/oeOlcD

----------


## Schlegel

Nice! Looks like a Vega-made mandolin. I've become rather fond of Vegas.

----------


## roady43

Here  comes a picture of the new rosewood bridge which I adapted for better playability. The original bridge (in the backround) was much to high and was positioned to close (string length to short!). It seems to be made of painted pearwood or similar.



roady43

----------


## loess

Cafe friends, 

I've enjoyed this thread immensely, especially as I've become increasingly fascinated with bowlbacks and with classical and Italian mandolin repertoire. Naturally, I developed a desire to own an American-made bowlback of ~100 year vintage. I've spent the past few months poring over the Cafe forum archives, Google-ing my heart out, and scouring eBay for research and potential purchases. Two days ago I posted a wanted ad on my local Craigslist, but not really expecting to land anything worth my while (Nebraska is not known for being a mandolin hotbed, and certainly not for bowlback instruments in playable shape). 

Well, it's evident that the universe is smiling upon me, and truly wants me to achieve my dreams. I'm elated that I can now humbly submit my application for membership to the Order of the Bowl. Yesterday I received an e-mail from an 85 year-old gentleman who lives not more than a few miles from me, indicating that he had a "very purty" bowlback for sale. I met him last night, and after a lovely chat and an hour of picking together (on his Gibson F4 and A2, no less!), I left as the joyful new owner of this MayFlower Mandolin:

  
 
I'm fairly confident and excited that this is a possible Larson-made instrument, given the information that I've culled from here and elsewhere on the web. It appears mine is virtually identical to this one. The gentleman I bought the mandolin from owned it for over 30 years. I asked, but he couldn't recall where he originally obtained it. In any case, he's taken impeccable care of it, always leaving the strings de-tuned while in storage. There's not a crack on it, and as far as my amateur eyes can tell, no top sinkage or neck heel separation either. I feel incredibly blessed to have the opportunity to call this beautiful mandolin my very own, and to have a new friend with which to pick rags and jazz tunes.

I'm curious about the bridge position. Before I take it to a bowlback-experienced luthier for a once-over and setup, I'd like to ensure that the bridge does in fact belong on the lower side of the cant, as pictured. How come some bowlbacks are constructed with the bridge on the top side of the cant, and some on the bottom? As for a fresh set of strings, I understand GHS A-240s are the most widely available, but I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions for an upgrade to those. Much thanks for any advice y'all can impart.

Adam

----------


## Tavy

Looks like a nice one Adam!

I'm fairly sure however, that all bowlbacks were intended to have the bridge on the upper section of the soundboard and not the canted section.  The key word here is "intended" because ultimately bridge position is determined by whatever location you need to get the instrument to play in tune.  Sometimes lowering the bridge to get a decent playing action can fix problems like this though - which is to say a bridge that gives a lower action can be further forward and still play in tune compared to a higher bridge which requires a position further back to compensate for the strings being pulled out of tune when fretting.  In addition a higher bridge results in more pull on the neck, often pulling a weak bowlback neck further forward resulting in an even higher action - resulting in a viscious circle of issues.

HTH, John.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I'm fairly sure however, that all bowlbacks were intended to have the bridge on the upper section of the soundboard and not the canted section.


The only maker that I am aware of that breaks that rule is Vega and they did make instruments for other brands tho i am not so sure about Mayflowers. I do have a Mayflower catalog in my files and will check to see what the pics there show. However, as John says, the proof is really in the intonation.

I just checked the Mayflower catalog (which you can look at at that link) and the pictures all show the bridges on the tailpiece side of the cant. I am not sure whether Vega made these, tho it is possible. 

BTW the OP's mandolin looks like a high end on the MF line.

----------


## roady43

> Cafe friends, 
> 
> ... As for a fresh set of strings, I understand GHS A-240s are the most widely available, but I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions for an upgrade to those. Much thanks for any advice y'all can impart.
> 
> Adam


Congratulations! What a beauty in mint condition! As the former owner carefully de-tuned the strings when not played, the bridge probably moved back each time a bit more (but not into position any more when tuned again)...

Maybe try the Fisoma Consort Mandolin strings (Burnished Bronze) by Lenzner strings. These strings were developed for the Embergher mandolins and other historic mandolins. I see that big city string shop has them.

roady43

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Roady, I usually get my strings from Big City but hadn't yet had a recommendation for the Fisomas. I will give them a try.

BTW, I'd love to see more pictures of the Mayflower……

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I have used Fisomas -- they used to be under the Lenzner Label and were designed by Alex Timmerman. I personally prefer Dogal Calace RW92b (dolce). They sound quite nice on my Vega.

----------


## brunello97

Jim, I didn't know that Alex was behind the Fisomas.  I've tried some of the Dogals and like them very very much. I have them on my two Ditson/Leland/L+H/Larson/Vega (whatever?!) canted top flatbacks.  They sound really great. (Carlo A tried out the Ditson/Leland when I was down visiting Eug in Ohio and was very complimentary.  That mandolin is a dream.)   The Fisomas are earmarked for my Favilla bowl. I'm looking forward to that and will get back with a response.

Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

I believe that Lenzner and Fisoma merged and the Consort strings originally commissioned by Alex under the Lenzner label were transferred to Fisoma. or something like that. I prob have a set of those earlier consorts. I wonder if they are collectible?

----------


## loess

Thanks all for the helpful and congratulatory comments, and for the links to Bernunzio and Big City. I've just placed an order at Big City Strings for the Fisoma Consorts. I understand from perusing the forum archives that they have a bit of a break-in period, which will be a great incentive for me to practice daily! I'll probably give the Dogals a try and when it comes time to change strings.

Mick, I'd be happy to shoot some additional photos taken this weekend. Are there any areas on the mandolin that you'd like to see detailed close-up photos of?

Very cool Mayflower catalog, Jim. These two Mayflowers and Larson-made Stahl show the bridge on the tail side as well:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L132-NR-AN...-/300597471629
http://www.folkwaymusic.com/images/i...arson-0511.jpg
http://www.larsonbrothersguitars.com.../mandobowl.htm

Adam

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## Schlegel

Not sure on this one.  I have long thought that many of the Mayflowers were made by Vega, and this one has a lot of Vega looks.  all 3 of my vegas, the bridge is intentionally below the cant, my three Larsons, the bridges are all above the cant.  And the bridge saddle construction on this one very much matches the Vega style.  But the fretboard end profile on this one matches one of my Larsons and not the Vegas.  I suspect interior construction details will be needed to convincingly settle things.  The Larsons had their own ideas about what to put on the inside of a soundboard and that can help us out in times when the outside was made to the wholesaler's specs.

----------


## roady43

Bridge position should be possible to be defined by measuring string lenght up to 12th fret and then be at least double distance from the nut. 

The Fisoma strings by Lenzner exist and existed as "normal" Bronxe (before the Consort version). Alex Timmermans found them the closest to the old Roman originals sold by Embergher and got in contact with Lenzner to refine them for historic instruments (that's how I understood that field of knowledge). I think that Fisoma became a label of the Lenzner brand (the Fisoma company was founded in 1790 by Johann Georg Ficker http://www.museum-markneukirchen.de/...php?f=23&t=835 ).

roady43

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## Jim Garber

I just checked my Maurer bowlback and the correct position of the bridge seems to be the soundhole side of the cant. In fact, all the pics of the Maurers I have in my files have the same bridge position.

----------


## brunello97

Adam, for me it is hard to feel confident about the bridge location on any mandolin based on its photograph in an ad. Once in a player's hands and set up correctly then I would feel better about making projections.  The bridge may be improperly positioned in the photos, or perhaps located to improve the action on a mandolin with a neck that is out of alignment.  

That said the location of the cant on a bowlback is tied to the geometry (and construction) of the bowl.  Any discrepancies in the bowl edge profile is going to influence where the cant is.  From the many examples, Vega did seem to develop its bowl geometry to position the bridge south of the cant. But I have backed off on that being a sole indicator of Veganess.  It doesn't obviate how small deviations in construction on individual mandolins might result in the bridge position varying.  I have had a few bowls (Italian and American) where the proper bridge position was directly on top of the cant. Hard to imagine that was a design decision.

I'm with Schlegel in proceeding slowly with Larson attributions. With all due respect, Bob Hartmann himself hasn't always proved to be the most reliable source.  I'm certainly no expert, and I hope the mandolin proves to be whatever you best wish it is.  I think it is a beautiful mandolin with a nice balance between flair and elegant proportions.  Any additional images would be a pleasure to see.  Closeups of the neck, soundhole detailing, top etc. would be great.  The Larsons often showed their hand(s) around these areas besides.

Thanks!

Mick

----------


## loess

I'll defer to proper intonation with regard to the bridge placement. My initial concern was that I had read that over time, a bridge placed on the tailpiece side of a mandolin that was designed to have the bridge sit on the soundhole side could potentially cause damage to the instrument.

As for the mandolin's Larson-ness (or lack thereof), I'm mostly interested for historical purposes and the enjoyment I get out of pursuing its genealogy. Hopefully the photos below will shed more light on that. But ultimately, whatever its pedigree, I'm delighted that it has come into my hands, and look forward with excitement to the musical journeys that it will take me on.

----------


## loess

More neck photos:

----------


## brunello97

Thanks, Adam, for the additional photos. It is extremely well crafted and in truly pristine condition.  Had it been cased all these years? Of course let the intonation guide the location of the bridge. If it is south of the cant by a few millimeters, provided that the instrument maintains its structural integrity I doubt it will be a problem.  I don't recall if I have ever seen the bracing on a Vega to see if it was repositioned relative to mandolins with 'normal' bridge positioning.  Maybe someone here has a photo that shows something. 

I think the Larson Debates will go on as long as there are mandolin players.  Whatever its provenance it is a beautiful instrument and is again in good hands.  Enjoy playing it!

Mick

----------


## Schlegel

Even if it is Vega made, it would still be among the better American mandolins. The equal of Martin, IMO.

----------


## brunello97

> Even if it is Vega made, it would still be among the better American mandolins. The equal of Martin, IMO.


Good point.  For all of the conversations and debate over Larson-ness here (and their typically high level of craft) there has been little discussion about how they sound.  I have a couple 'Brilliantone' mandolins, marketed by L+H, which Bob Hartmann attributes to the Larsons in his book.  I am leaning towards Vega these days. They both sound exceptionally good whoever made them.

Mick

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## roady43

This is a nice Herwiga bolwback I bought from eBay recently. The seller says it's about 80 years old. Many similar instruments every week to be found. If in good condition, these can be an excellent alternative to the much more expensive italian bowlbacks (which often are offered in very bad condition). There was a crack which possibly is a result of shipping (was not visible on the pictures). First I tried to glue it just from outside by pressing the sides together but it wasn't possible to get it fixed. So I placed a wood splint into the crack and glued again (always with hide glue). I have to make a new bridge because the one it was delivered with, didn't fit.
These instruments are often very good build and were really made for playing (in contrast to many italian tourist crap bowlbacks). The sound, intonation and sustain is very good.

roady43

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## Cary Fagan

I've always understood Mayflowers to have been made by Vega. And photo comparisons have always confirmed it in my own mind. The headstock and the shape of the bowl particularly.  I restored a Mayflower once and was impressed by the way the ribs of the bowl were curved so that the bowl had a lovely smooth feel to it, unlike Lyon and Healys in which each individual rib was flat so that the bowl was really a series of angled planes (if that's the way to describe it.)

----------


## Kip Carter

I must say these are some beautiful pieces!
Kip...

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## roady43

Now my "Embergher Orchestra 1" (1913) is back home after repair: new fretboard and bridge (customized for my needs on special order), fixed gap in back, bowl varnished new. I'm thrilled by it's brilliant "silvery" tone, volume and stunning sustain and: this little mandolin seems to carry very far...

roady43

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## Jim Garber

> customized for my needs on special order


What was done to make it custom? Was the fretboard widened?

----------


## roady43

> What was done to make it custom? Was the fretboard widened?


Yes, by giving more height and continuing the angle of the neck (=  more stability as a desired side effect). We won an extra 3mm  specially at the nut (I used to slip down from the E-string before). On the other side the distances between the strings at the bridge are smaller than on the original Embergher bridge (now playing fifth is still possible even in higher positions). Then: the markings (mother-of-pearl) now are on the side instead in the middle of the fretboard (where they were useless for me). The bronze frets are slim like the originals. It is very comfortable to play.

roady43

----------


## Jim Garber

> Yes, by giving more height and continuing the angle of the neck (=  more stability as a desired side effect). We won an extra 3mm  specially at the nut (I used to slip down from the E-string before).


Is this what you mean?

----------


## roady43

Exactly Jim. Slightly more material on the left (G-string), like on original Embergher fretboards (and copies).

roady43

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## brunello97

Very interesting detail, Roady. I thought those were shadow lines in your upper right photo of the back of the mandolin.  So that is the 'overhang' of the fretboard. Nice.

Mick

----------


## roady43

> Very interesting detail, Roady. I thought those were shadow lines in your upper right photo of the back of the mandolin.  So that is the 'overhang' of the fretboard. Nice.
> 
> Mick


Thank you Mick. In fact it turned out exactly as I hoped it would. Very comfortable. For the bridge I gave the luthier a 1:1 foto of my Knorr so he made these proportions the same. Last summer I replaced the original nut and bridge of the Knorr for the same reason: comfort and playability of fifth (etc.). Therefore the "overhang" here is now mainly on the G-srting side on top of the fretboard. But that does not disturb me - it only looks a bit strange for a "well informed eye". Funny thing: no problem to switch between the two instruments although they're completely different. 

roady43

----------


## Fiffoff

Here's my Weymann Bowlback Mandolin, serial # 5699

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## Jim Garber

That is a classy instrument, Chris. I love the detail on the bridge ...very unusual.

----------


## vic-victor

The pictures of a no-name ornate bowlback's wreck offered for sale on a Russian website. I thought I'd post them here before they perish.

----------


## vic-victor

> The pictures of a no-name ornate bowlback's wreck offered for sale on a Russian website. I thought I'd post them here before they perish.


This is actually a higer-end Puglisi. The owner wants over a grand for this wreck  :Smile:

----------


## brunello97

> This is actually a higer-end Puglisi. The owner wants over a grand for this wreck


It must be filled with tiny amphorae of (still drinkable) wine.

Mick

----------


## Tom Haywood

Can anyone ID this one? There is no identifying info in or on it. The tailpiece has no engraving. All I know is that it was played at folk dances in California in the 1940s.

----------


## Jim Garber

That is not so easy. Lots of no-name mandolins with eagles on the pickguard. I think that various eagle inlays were available from pearl manufacturers and that various makers used them.

One possibility is William Tonk. I have a 1901 catalog picturing a mandolin (on the right) with a similar inlay in the pickguard and similar peghead shape. The fretboard is much fancier. 

The other I have in my files is Hartmann & Reinhard from New York City which has a different peghead but a similarly shaped pickguard shape. Take your pick of those.

The tailpiece is a standard one found on many instruments of the period.

----------


## Tom Haywood

Thanks, Jim. I had not found pictures of anything with an eagle on the pick guard. This mandolin looks in all details like the Tonk No.17 shown in the catalogue with the ebony fingerboard, but with the alternating wood and pearl binding and simple dot inlays on the fretboard as shown on the No. 6000, and no inlay on the headstock. The tuner buttons look like the 6000. Sorry my pictures are so bad. I've been trying to decide for a couple of years if this thing is worth repairing. Knowing a little more about it helps.

----------


## billkilpatrick

just bought an ebay bowlback ... please forward "bro' di bowl" admission papers - when, when will i ever learn?

----------


## Jim Garber

Bill: you will never learn. However, in order to receive your papers, you must post pictures and details of you newest acquisition.

----------


## brunello97

I'm looking forward to seeing this.  Bill the Reluctant Bowlhead. My hunch is that this will be good.

Mick

----------


## billkilpatrick

ok

----------


## billkilpatrick

... and i was doing so well, too ...

can't lift the photos off ebay - it has "supertone sing" stamped on the sound plate and lettering stamped on the bowl near the neck: "patent no. 1184879" - very peculiar - a prototype perhaps?  quick delve in the archives reveals "supertone" to be a "sears & roebuck" label.  plus mention of someone named albert shutt.

the sound hole is oval but unlike others, it's placed vertically, instead of horizontally - looks a bit like a "scream" mask.  ("supertone scream?") what made me go for it was its lute-like appearance - no binding and a nice looking headstock (which looks new - a replacement, perhaps?)

i was the only bidder, which is a bit worrying - normally i'm quite happy to have no competition (maynard krebs was my hero.)  sold on ebay uk by someone calling themselves "halpaosto" - if he/she is a denizen of the cafe, please let yourself be known ... all-i-all-i-in-free

----------


## vic-victor

Ah, I've seen this one on ebay. Very unusual indeed. Quick google search tells us that Supertone was a brand of Sears and Roebuck Co.

----------


## riffhard

I bought this nameless italian Mando for a few bucks.
It needs a little restauration. For now it is only deco. The tuners don't turn anymore. 
I think i buy this ones.

----------


## Jim Garber

> ... and i was doing so well, too ...
> 
> can't lift the photos off ebay - it has "supertone sing" stamped on the sound plate and lettering stamped on the bowl near the neck: "patent no. 1184879" - very peculiar - a prototype perhaps?  quick delve in the archives reveals "supertone" to be a "sears & roebuck" label.  plus mention of someone named albert shutt.
> 
> the sound hole is oval but unlike others, it's placed vertically, instead of horizontally - looks a bit like a "scream" mask.  ("supertone scream?") what made me go for it was its lute-like appearance - no binding and a nice looking headstock (which looks new - a replacement, perhaps?)
> 
> i was the only bidder, which is a bit worrying - normally i'm quite happy to have no competition (maynard krebs was my hero.)  sold on ebay uk by someone calling themselves "halpaosto" - if he/she is a denizen of the cafe, please let yourself be known ... all-i-all-i-in-free


Bill: you could have saved me some searching by just posting the eBay item#. The eBay listing is here. Your seller is in Finland but it looks to me that the mandolin was made, or at least patented in Germany I think that is what Gesch. means something like manufacturer -- I really do not know German. We need Martin here.

Here are the pics. It says Superton Sing not Supertone. No relation at all to the Sears line. Also, i would guess that this dates much later than the US Supertones, maybe 1950s or even later. It does look interesting with that vertical soundhole -- I like that and a very deep bowl. Let us know how it is when it arrives.

----------


## Jim Garber

> I bought this nameless italian Mando for a few bucks.
> It needs a little restauration. For now it is only deco. The tuners don't turn anymore. 
> I think i buy this ones.


Before you buy those new tuners you might try a little bit of oil on the ones that are on the mandolin. Also, those tuners might be fine but the spacing of the posts may not be exactly the same as your old mandolin. If you can buy the new tuners in a store with the mandolin there that would be better.

From the fragment of the label and the type of tailpiece I would guess that your mandolin was made in Germany, not Italy.

----------


## billkilpatrick

> Bill: you could have saved me some searching by just posting the eBay item#. The eBay listing is here. Your seller is in Finland but it looks to me that the mandolin was made, or at least patented in Germany I think that is what Gesch. means something like manufacturer -- I really do not know German. We need Martin here.
> 
> Here are the pics. It says Superton Sing not Supertone. No relation at all to the Sears line. Also, i would guess that this dates much later than the US Supertones, maybe 1950s or even later. It does look interesting with that vertical soundhole -- I like that and a very deep bowl. Let us know how it is when it arrives.


thank you jim - you're a marvel, with your internet know-how.  of course i'll post pictures and sound sample when it arrives but ... i really must learn to pay more attention to detail.  thanks again!

----------


## riffhard

> Before you buy those new tuners you might try a little bit of oil on the ones that are on the mandolin. Also, those tuners might be fine but the spacing of the posts may not be exactly the same as your old mandolin. If you can buy the new tuners in a store with the mandolin there that would be better.
> 
> From the fragment of the label and the type of tailpiece I would guess that your mandolin was made in Germany, not Italy.


Thanks Jim. The Label says "Musikhaus Kratochwil, 1020 Wien Taborstraße". This shop does not exist anymore. And I could not find any info about  it on the web. I think this is only the label of the seller, don't think that they built it. 
I live in Vienna. Mandolines are rather exotic instruments here.  :Frown:  So i'm afraid i have to order the new tuners. Could not find anything at the Website of Klangfarbe, which is the biggest musicstore in Vienna. If they dont fit i will return them.
The pic's are a few weeks old, i already tried it with oil, forgot to mention.

----------


## riffhard

> Bill: you could have saved me some searching by just posting the eBay item#. The eBay listing is here. Your seller is in Finland but it looks to me that the mandolin was made, or at least patented in Germany I think that is what Gesch. means something like manufacturer -- I really do not know German. We need Martin here.
> 
> Here are the pics. It says Superton Sing not Supertone. No relation at all to the Sears line. Also, i would guess that this dates much later than the US Supertones, maybe 1950s or even later. It does look interesting with that vertical soundhole -- I like that and a very deep bowl. Let us know how it is when it arrives.


"Gesch." does not mean manufacturer. If it should be "Geschäft" it means "shop".
What's the word before Gesch.? Can't read that on the pic.

----------


## Jim Garber

> "Gesch." does not mean manufacturer. If it should be "Geschäft" it means "shop".
> What's the word before Gesch.? Can't read that on the pic.


I think it says: "PATENTANTL. GESCH." then the number underneath. I have quite a few old German instrument catalogs and the companies sometimes have Gesch. after them, so you can see my confusion.

----------


## Jim Garber

> Thanks Jim. The Label says "Musikhaus Kratochwil, 1020 Wien Taborstraße". This shop does not exist anymore. And I could not find any info about  it on the web. I think this is only the label of the seller, don't think that they built it. 
> I live in Vienna. Mandolines are rather exotic instruments here.  So i'm afraid i have to order the new tuners. Could not find anything at the Website of Klangfarbe, which is the biggest musicstore in Vienna. If they dont fit i will return them.
> The pic's are a few weeks old, i already tried it with oil, forgot to mention.


It still looks German to me. There are tailpieces like that usually stamped Marcelli but made in Germany. See here and here.

Strange... I would think that those tuners not having rust would be turnable. Have you taken them off the mandolin to try them?

----------


## brunello97

My guess is that the gesch. in this case is an abbreviation for geschützt which means 'protected' as in patent protected or something like that. Ma sto sparando al buio.  My German skills remain an embarrassment.  Kooky looking mandolin, Bill. I look forward to hearing it.

Mick

----------


## riffhard

> I think it says: "PATENTANTL. GESCH." then the number underneath. I have quite a few old German instrument catalogs and the companies sometimes have Gesch. after them, so you can see my confusion.


Ok, so it means "geschützt". In combination with Patent this simply does mean it is protected by patent no ....

Now i can read it. It says: "Patentamtlich geschützt". 
Patentamt = patent office
geschützt = protected

----------


## riffhard

> It still looks German to me. There are tailpieces like that usually stamped Marcelli but made in Germany. See here and here.
> 
> Strange... I would think that those tuners not having rust would be turnable. Have you taken them off the mandolin to try them?


Than most likly it is a german one. I called it italian because that is what the person i bought it from told me.  :Redface: 
Yes, i took the tuners off. They are even very hard to turn without any string tension. I think they are bend.

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## jlatorre

Well, it's not exactly a mandolin but it's a bowl-back.

I thought I'd try my hand at making a Renaissance Mandore, which is the ancestor of the mandolin. Here's a picture of what I came up with:



The rosette was a cheat; I ordered one already laser-cut from a supplier. And although it first had gut frets, i found them to be too much a pain in the ass, so I substituted standard frets.

Here's a picture of it from the rear:

----------


## jlatorre

I forgot to add that the woods are maple and rosewood, with a spruce soundboard and a maple neck. The rosette is padauk. The internal bracing is fairly modern ... X-bracing with some fans at the bridge. Right now I have it strung with Aquila "nyl-gut" stringing, tuned like a conventional mandolin, but since the E string wants to break, I may have to re-think that.

Ignore the pictures. They're for another mandolin I made. I pasted them into this missive by mistake and now I can't figure out how to delete them. Sorry.

----------


## Jim Garber

Hey, Bill I found another one similar to your Superton with a Wunderlich label on eBay Germany. If that is the going price, you did quite well.

----------


## billkilpatrick

wow! ... i paid £86 - nothing like an absent zero to make the heart grow fonder.  c.a.wunderlich - i'll look for the name when the mandolin arrives - giuseppe in finland (love it) says he sent it yesterday.  thanks, jim - really appreciate it

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## Jim Garber

I have a C.A. Wunderlich catalog from my friend in Austria, but that is an earlier one from the 1920s I think, and this mandolin does not appear in it.

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## billkilpatrick

assuming mine is associated with him, both appear to be from the 1950's - you've really done it now, can't wait for it to get here and this is italy, afterall, with italian postal snafu's galore ...

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## Martin Jonas

> Hey, Bill I found another one similar to your Superton with a Wunderlich label on eBay Germany. If that is the going price, you did quite well.


Well, that one is a Buy-It-Now that nobody has bought yet, so not much indication of market value.

I do agree that Bill's looks rather nice -- I'll be interested to hear his impressions.  From what I can make out, C.A. Wunderlich was a fairly prominent instrument wholesaler/distributor, not a maker.  Thus, their business model would have been similar to that of Zimmermann -- they commissioned smaller makers in the Vogtland region to make instruments for them at various market/price points.  Some, but not all, of their instruments (and probably the lower end of the range) may have been made in factory-like manufactures wholly owned by them.

Bill's instrument looks rather upmarket -- few German mandolins have a proper fretboard extension and those that do were usually intended for players who can actually play up there, i.e. the top end.

Martin

----------


## Jim Garber

I guess it is a going price assuming it actually goes.  :Smile: 

I do like that Edvard Munch vertical hole and look fwd to the report of sound and playability when it does arrive, Bill.

----------


## billkilpatrick

... me too.  edvard munch - hah!

thanks martin - all knowledge gratefully received

----------


## riffhard

> Hey, Bill I found another one similar to your Superton with a Wunderlich label on eBay Germany. If that is the going price, you did quite well.


The one on eBay must be the Mando equivalent to an original 59 Gibson Les Paul.  :Laughing: 
Beside of eBay you find old Mandolines in Austria also at Willhaben. 
Here is one that looks a bit like the one on ebay. I don't think he will get the price he wants.
Or this one from same seller. And another one.
Or what about this one?

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## billkilpatrick

just what i - or anyone else - needs ... more tempting sites, selling mandolins

pleased to meet you riffhard - this could be the start of a very expensive friendship ...

----------


## riffhard

What else would you do with the money? Spend it on useless things like food or cloth?  :Grin:

----------


## billkilpatrick

i'm in shock! - mandolin arrived in 3 days ... this is italy!?! - some signs of repair and refinishing, which was very well done - has the characteristic delicate, brittle sound but less so - happy-chappy:

----------


## Martin Jonas

Congratulations, Bill -- that looks and sounds a really nice bowlback, especially straight out of the box via Ebay!  Great bargain at that price.

Martin

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## billkilpatrick

grazie martino! - video has elongated the image somewhat - don't have the other for comparrison's sake but the bowl seems deeper on this one; sound board a little broader at the base

----------


## Jim Garber

You did good, Bill. Sounds nice already. What strings will you use?

----------


## billkilpatrick

thanks jim - at the moment, his - but (somewhere?) i'll buy a set of dogal calace (light) strings

----------


## billkilpatrick

... just did - on italian ebay - dogal calace RW92B DOLCE

----------


## Jim Garber

> Hey, Bill I found another one similar to your Superton with a Wunderlich label on eBay Germany. If that is the going price, you did quite well.


This one is still available on eBay Germany.

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## brunello97

> This one is still available on eBay Germany.


I have to listen to a lot of German spoken on a regular basis. No offense, but it isn't exactly samba to my ears.  But then again sometimes something like this comes along:

Der Hals ist aus Ahorn.

Amazing.

Mick

----------


## mando1man

Here's my 1905 Martin Style 5

----------


## mando1man



----------


## mando1man



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## Jim Garber

> Here's my 1905 Martin Style 5


That is a real beaut, mando1man! Amazing condition.

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## brunello97

> That is a real beaut, mando1man! Amazing condition.


Even the Clown Shoe is in perfect shape. That is really something.

Mick

----------


## mando1man

Thanks fellers. I got it from a gal that plays in a mandolin orchestra in Washington state. She said that seh was selling it to buy a Gilchrist dola. It's set up nice and has a very cool tone. And it was not expensive :-) It came with the original leather case (rare) and a new one.

----------


## Eugene

I'd be happy to take it off your hands slightly less cheaply, mando1man! [Inset slyly winking emoticon of your choice here.]

----------


## Jim Garber

> I'd be happy to take it off your hands slightly less cheaply, mando1man! [Inset slyly winking emoticon of your choice here.]


For those who do not know, Mr. Eugene Braig, among other achievements, is the originator of the term "clown shoe case."

----------


## roady43

Latest acquisition is this German bowlback made from flamed apple (extremely rare!).  I fell in love with it as soon as I saw it at the makers place in February (when I picked up my Embergher which he had repaired). So he left me with it since and I played a lot of performances with it.

roady43

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## brunello97

Very nice, Roady43.  I think it has a clean yet dynamic look.  The slight asymmetry is appealing to me as well.  The fruitwood is beautiful.  At first glance, I thought it was cherry. Where is the builder from?

Mick

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## Jim Garber

roady43: Yes, any reason you would keep the name of the maker secret? Please so let us know who he/she is. It looks, from the photos, that this is impeccable workmanship. 

Also, I believe that there is a wide difference -- almost polar opposites -- between the Embergher mandolin and the German styles including, neck shape, tone and approach to playing. Do you play particular kinds of music with each type of mandolin?

----------


## roady43

> Very nice, Roady43.  I think it has a clean yet dynamic look.  The slight asymmetry is appealing to me as well.  The fruitwood is beautiful.  At first glance, I thought it was cherry. Where is the builder from?
> 
> Mick





> roady43: Yes, any reason you would keep the name of the maker secret? Please so let us know who he/she is. It looks, from the photos, that this is impeccable workmanship.


Thank you Mick and Jim.
In fact I didn't want to keep the builders name secret but he asked me not to be "published". So I waited with putting up pictures here until I owned the mandolin, which is since yesterday. He even didn't put a label inside the mandolin, he is not in the internet and builds intruments only on special request. He has his workshop only a few kilometers from where I live.

Because of his extraordinary craftmanship I ordered another mandolin from him which will be finished at the end of the year: black Rio palisander bowl with thin maple filings, spruce top with black Rio scratchboard and a special peghead kit that allows exchangeable stringing (wood or machine pegs, different number of courses, gut or steel strings). Exchangeable nut and bridge, only 4 bone pins for the strings... Very exciting. I've never seen or heard something similar and I'm very happy that he accepted the experiment with my crazy "invention". My goal was to have the possibility of no metal parts on it. A security exit is build in as well: if this fails (because tuning could become a real issue, specially when wood pegs are combined with steel strings!) the peghaed always can be transformed into an ordinary machine head.

roady43

----------


## roady43

> Also, I believe that there is a wide difference -- almost polar opposites -- between the Embergher mandolin and the German styles including, neck shape, tone and approach to playing. Do you play particular kinds of music with each type of mandolin?


I love to play the Embergher very much and like to practise on it. The fretboard is very comfortable for me (coming from the violin) and it is much easier to reach the high notes because of the slim shape of the body. The sound is bright and clear, in colors I would call it silvery. Very good sustain and the basses are astonishly strong. I played it once in Otello in January. Nice for the Italian repertoire. I might need it for Don Giovanni (on period instruments) but then will put on the Lenzner Cosnort or even gut strings. Still looking for a Vinaccia of the 1790s for that. 

As you say the differences between the 2 types are quite obvious.

The German bowlback was played in concerts and opera performances all the time during the last 6 month. Perfect for Romeo and Juliet (Prokofiew) playing from the pit. No problem to come through against the trumpets...
The sound is brilliant, strong, round and remembers a bit at the sound of a cembalo.

roady43

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## Tavy

Can I just say, that's one sweet looking bowl - love the tailpiece inlay - definitely a head scratcher working out how that was done!  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

> In fact I didn't want to keep the builders name secret but he asked me not to be "published". So I waited with putting up pictures here until I owned the mandolin, which is since yesterday. He even didn't put a label inside the mandolin, he is not in the internet and builds intruments only on special request. He has his workshop only a few kilometers from where I live.


Strange that the maker with such talent would want to avoid even a modicum of fame. Oh well.

----------


## roady43

> Strange that the maker with such talent would want to avoid even a modicum of fame. Oh well.


Yes but he is extremely modest, not to say shy and not longing for fame. The other point is, that he had decided to spend as much time as possible for another field he is very involved and successful: sculptures. He is not so young anymore and can't accept to many orders for building mandolins and wants avoid any pressure. At the moment his priority is his artistry as sculptor (the finish of many details of my mandolin tell a lot, e.g. armrest).

roady43

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## Jim Garber

You are lucky to know him and have been able to convince him to build for you.

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## brunello97

> You are lucky to know him and have been able to convince him to build for you.


He remains an International Luthier of Mystery.


Mick

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## roady43

Little sound sample with my new German bowlback. Some bars of the 1. Mandolin Part of Prokofiews Morning Serenade from Romeo and Juliet. Unplugged recording in 40sq.m. living room...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNoQm...ature=youtu.be

roady43

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## Jim Garber

Cute little tune...not so easy to play, eh? 

For our convenience:

----------


## Eugene

Not quite mandolin, but I'd posted images of my weird, rib-backed vihuela way back in 2005, pre-restoration.  Chad Neal, mentioned below, completely rebuilt it on the original shell.  If anybody happens to be curious, detail can be had at this page of Chad's blog site.

----------


## Eugene

This guy has gotten a little discussion elsewhere.  It's a ca. 1910s Favilla Bros. piece that cam to me from Fred Oster's Vintage Instruments, Inc.  This photo montage is from that shop:




It's a bit quirky.  The neck is actually wider than the bowl at the join, and the overhang is decoratively bound.  The bridge was a bit beyond functionality because of some warping and cracking.  It did not come to me with the bridge pictured here, but rather shipped with a period Vega bridge that didn't quite fit.  The soundboard is built for excellent structural integrity and is strongly arched, and the Vega bridge's points are thus left floating in space.

52 ribs, 25 frets, plenty of ornamental pearl--but not too much...  I like that the fingerboard eschews ornament, but there are position markers set for the player, along the edge's binding. Whoever commissioned this evidently did so as much for it to be really played as to show off.

It's currently off to my buddy Chad's shop for some very minor restoration: new bridge, some fingerboard work in upper positions (the extension frets out above 19), replacing a little missing pearl, etc.

What I'd really like to know is who was "M.V.B." as engraved on the shield in the scratchplate? I'm guessing those to be initials of whoever commissioned the original build and suspect that person was based in New York.

----------


## Tavy

That's one nice looking bowl!

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## Eugene

Thanks, Tavy!

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## Jim Garber

> What I'd really like to know is who was "M.V.B." as engraved on the shield in the scratchplate? I'm guessing those to be initials of whoever commissioned the original build and suspect that person was based in New York.


Martin Van Buren....????  Nah! Tho I would imagine that this person was a decent player or fancied him or her self so since they had an extended fretboard. Maybe a good thorough looking thru concert listings from the period would find such a person. Then again, it could also have been a wealthy amateur.

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## Eugene

Hmmm, a potential presidential affiliation is certainly intriguing, but I think ol' Marty predated this piece by a few years.

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## barryhall

Here are some photos of my German "Superton Sing" mandola (i.e., viola scale, not mandolin).  I am just getting ready to post it on eBay. Anyone interested?
Barry

----------


## Jim Garber

> Here are some photos of my German "Superton Sing" mandola (i.e., viola scale, not mandolin).  I am just getting ready to post it on eBay. Anyone interested?
> Barry


What is the scale length?

----------


## barryhall

It's 17.5 inches from bridge to the zero fret. Body is 16 inches and total length is 31 inches. The bowl is really deep (8 inches) which gives it a very resonant tone.  Seems to me that it is intended for viola/mandola tuning (CGDA) which is how I have it currently tuned. Sound right to you? The headstock has an impressed name in script that appears to say "Gläsel."  As you can see in the photos, the soundboard says "Superton Sing." On the side of the body is impressed "PATENTAMTL GESCH. 1194879" which I assume is a German patent indicator. Does anyone know more about this maker, probable age, etc.?

----------


## Martin Jonas

"Superton Sing" was a brand name used by C.A. Wunderlich, one of the large musical instruments wholesalers/distributors based in Markneukirchen in Saxony/Germany.  Gläsel is a common surname in the Markneukirchen/Vogtland region and there were a whole raft of violin and guitar makers with that surname -- presumably one of them made instruments with this headstock logo and distributed them through Wunderlich.  Here are photos of three guitars with the same headstock logo I found online:



Because of the use of the Superton Sing logo, I would think your mandola is probably 1930s -- Wunderlich disappeared from the scene after 1945.

Martin

----------


## brunello97

Those arch tops are pretty hip, Martin.  Check the recurve on those.

Didn't Bill K pick up a Sing bowl back mandolin a short while back that we were talking about?  The longitudinal sound hole looks familiar.

Mick

----------


## barryhall

Yes.  Mine looks like Bill's but my mandola is a lot larger than his mandolin.  I wonder if mine was intended for viola tuning CGDA or octave mandolin GDAE.  Here's a video of Bill's:
http://youtu.be/PwMhd75FJQE




> Didn't Bill K pick up a Sing bowl back mandolin a short while back that we were talking about?  The longitudinal sound hole looks familiar.
> 
> Mick

----------


## JCM

Jim, this mandolin sat in an un-airconditioned boat house in Titusville Florida for at least 60 years!

----------


## Jim Garber

Craig: That is a nice one and it looks like it is in good shape. I like the compensated bridge and the monogram on the headstock. Yours is a simply adorned model but made by one of the top three shops in Italy. Was your grandfather a player?

----------


## JCM

Jim, my grandfather sure was a player.  I have pictures of him at Norwich Univ. circa 1916 playing in his dorm room.  Then some in his orange groves near Titusville, FL.  He was one of the civil engineers who laid out the launch pad sites for the Apollo rockets.  Thanks for helping me uncover this family mystery!  

I think I'll get this mandolin restored and display it in a china type cabinet...then buy myself a starter mandolin to learn on :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

You can learn on this one for sure. It is a quality instrument. It would be a real shame to have it locked up in a cabinet. Musical instruments were meant to be played. You would make grandpa proud. BTW it would be cool it you like, to post some pics here of him playing that mandolin.

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## Jim Garber

Nice looking Ceccherini for UK buyers only. Price is still reasonable.

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## roady43

Little Show of my German bolwbacks! Enjoy...





roady43

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## Marty Jacobson

That's a very clever idea for the headstock on the one with the ebonized back. That's some beautiful work on all three of these.

----------

roady43

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## Tavy

> Little Show of my German bolwbacks! Enjoy...


Roady those are really sweet, nice work!

----------

roady43

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## JeffD

> Little Show of my German bolwbacks! Enjoy...


Wow. Very cool. The one in the center is suitable for framing. Lovely.

----------

roady43

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## Jim Garber

> Little Show of my German bowlbacks! Enjoy...


Pardon me if you gave us this info already, but who are the maker(s)?

----------


## Beanzy

I had put pics up on my own blog but as a reference am including pics of my recently acquired Calace 58-A (now model 13?)

   

I've just fitted a new nut which has resolved some of the set-up problems originally bodge-fixed by a zero-fret someone had fitted, the gap from that has been successfully filled by an ebony insert. The bridge in the pic has now had the slots re-filled and will be re-slotted next weekend when I'm home. Even just the new nut means the 'a' strings stay in tune properly. As it's a G only compensated bridge I'm using Thomastick medium strings with the wound 'a'.

----------


## Tavy

Oooo nice!  What year was that one made out of interest?

----------


## Beanzy

Aye well there's the rub. I reckon it's probably 1977 or re-worked in recent years, but it was listed as 1922 in the shop and the label could be read either way.
It had a different bridge originally as this one (a proper Calace one from what I can see) has a different footprint and the top has the little marks from registration nipples on either side of the old bridge. 
The label looks like this;

----------


## Jim Garber

Eoin:  I suppose if the current bridge works with the strings you like then it is fine. I see that the current Calace model thirteen has a compensated bridge. I would assume that they use Dogal Calace roundwound strings.

----------


## Jim Garber

I won't swear on it but it looks more like a 1977 than a 1922. I have a 1974 Calace mandola and the finish looks like this one. I have had a couple of 20's mandolins but they look different.

----------


## Beanzy

Fingers crossed the filling & re-slotting is ok (the upper a slot had been cut too deep). I have another one fitted at the moment while the one in the photo sets. It's in ebony with a brass insert, but the tone isn't as full sounding as the rosewood /bone one due to the harder materials. The main thing is it sounds super with the bridge in the pic so I'm working from a great reference point, and any alternatives for looks have to shape up to that before they pass muster.  :Smile: 

My hunch is '70s like you say; as the finish on the fretboard definitely looks a bit 'Friday afternoon' / valpolicella influenced and I've read comments saying things weren't the most 'finished' during that phase. The second fret M.O.P and fret are aligned like grandpas dentures too.

----------


## Jim Garber

Eoin: do you make your own bridges? If not, *Dave Hynds* makes some nice ones. I would go for a compensated ebony/bone one. Not fond of a brass saddle. Too metallic.

----------


## Tavy

> Eoin: do you make your own bridges? If not, *Dave Hynds* makes some nice ones. I would go for a compensated ebony/bone one. Not fond of a brass saddle. Too metallic.


I like to think I do too, and Eoin's just round the corner from me... just saying  :Smile:

----------


## Jim Garber

Sorry, John....

----------


## peterk

Here's a mandolin which was repaired by R.A. Mango, NYC (in 1930s ?) which I have just started fixing a bit. A label by Mango is stuck inside the bowl, perhaps on top of the maker's label ? Eeither way, the mandolin is anonymous for now.
I am half way thru with cleaning the headstock as well as the tuning machines, and there is still a fair amount of work to be done. The mandolin might need some fret levelling/shimming, not sure yet. 
While the instrument is relatively austere wrt MOP ornaments, I kind of like the tunner pin bushings made of MOP.

----------


## Jim Garber

That is beautiful, Peter. Definitely Italian, prob Napoli, possibly Vinaccia. I have seen that bug on (I thought) of of the Vinaccias but can't seem to find it. Of course,  inlay is not much of a clue to maker since they often bought from a third-party inlay catalog.

I asked in the builder's section how to carefully remove a glued-over label and not damage the one underneath. it can be done. Mostly they sad start with an application of a damp cloth and see what happens.

----------


## peterk

> That is beautiful, Peter. Definitely Italian, prob Napoli, possibly Vinaccia. I have seen that bug on (I thought) of of the Vinaccias but can't seem to find it. Of course,  inlay is not much of a clue to maker since they often bought from a third-party inlay catalog.
> 
> I asked in the builder's section ho to carefully remove a glued-over label and not damage the one underneath. it can be done. Mostly they sad start with an application of a damp cloth and see what happens.


Thank you Jim, I also think that the mandolin may have some Vinaccia elements:

(1) The headstock shape, particularly the simplified classic pediment volutes.
(2) The bug in the scratch plate corner.
(3) Scratch plate outline (scalloping)
(4) The skirt: scalloping, tulipwood binding.
(5) Soundhole rosette: small and simple, but with very fine and uncommon MOP elements.

The only component I am very unsure about is the tailpiece with the hinged armrest.....I can not recall that type from a few Vinaccia instruments I've seen on the net.

----------


## Jim Garber

> T
> The only component I am very unsure about is the tailpiece with the hinged armrest.....I can not recall that type from a few Vinaccia instruments I've seen on the net.


Tailpiece is not original, I am pretty sure. I agree with the others tho Vegas and Martins  and prob a few others have similar peghead shapes with that cutout.

----------


## peterk

Yes, you are of course right about the headstock shape....not very uncommon.
In addition, when I removed the tailpiece, the wood underneath showed some evidence of a retrofit.

There is something funny about the label inside.......I'll take a shot of it momentarily. :Grin: 

It almost looks like he hand wrote "Repaired by" as an afterthought, with a pencil, just before sticking the label inside the mandolin. Perhaps it occurred to him that his label alone might have been interpreted that he made the instrument himself. :Wink:  It would have been so nice if he added the date of the repair completion. As far as the maker's label is concerned, it might be underneath, or not.

Incidentally, at the bottom of Mango's label he proudly states: "Repairing artistically done."

----------


## Jim Garber

Just got this Embergher No. 1 today and took some quick pics. I can't tell the year since the store in Zurich pasted their label over the original Embergher one (just like Mr. Mango above).

I stupidly forgot to take a full-length photo of the back, but you get the idea.

The thins is dirty but should clean up pretty well. Someone did try to fill the back crack in the bowl and glue the scratchplate down with carpenters glue. There is a small separation on the bass side of the tailpiece. otherwise, structurally it looks like it is in good shape. The neck angel looks pretty good. The original bar frets need to be worked on to make it play well. The top looks quite nice. There is some light coming thru the bowl so possibly that may need to be looked at as well.

This is the original bridge. Embergher made many of the bridge with that "butterfly cut" so it would contour to the top of the mandolin easier -- I guess if the top geometry changes over time or with the weather the bridge would also change with it.

----------


## peterk

Good grief, Jim, what a lovely mandolin......that thing is in excellent state of preservation.
Two hundred dollars you say ? I feel it, it's coming: I shall start sobbing uncontrollably any moment now :Crying: .

Here are a few shots of my "Belcanto" Embergher.

----------


## Martin Veit

Jim, thats a very fine mandolin. Yummie!

And Peter, do you know, what my thought is?
I would take off the frontside "Belcanto"-plate very carefully.
So, that you can replace it anytime without harm. 
Maybe there is the original embergher-branding beyond.

----------


## peterk

> Jim, thats a very fine mandolin. Yummie!
> 
> And Peter, do you know, what my thought is?
> I would take off the frontside "Belcanto"-plate very carefully.
> So, that you can replace it anytime without harm. 
> Maybe there is the original embergher-branding beyond.


Now, thank you, I didn't even think of that.......I'll remove the "Belcanto" as well as "Hofmann" boilerplate, just to be sure that no Embergher stamp is hidden behind. :Laughing:

----------


## Jim Garber

Hah! I would answer to the question: "Luigee Emburger?" Yes, absolutely but not Luigi Embergher, no, definitely not, close but no ceegar.

----------


## Jim Garber

Sorry Peter and Martin. Hofman may have had some connection with Embergher but that is not an Embergher -- at least I have never seen one that looked like that.

----------


## Martin Veit

Hah - Jim! Just wait and see! 
Sometime we will win  :Grin:

----------


## Jim Garber

Sure, Martin. Keep posting photos. The ones I have seen in the German catalogs I have are copies, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

----------


## brunello97

> Hah! I would answer to the question: "Luigee Emburger?" Yes, absolutely but not Luigi Embergher, no, definitely not, close but no ceegar.


This never gets old:




Mick

----------


## Jim Garber

> Hah - Jim! Just wait and see! 
> Sometime we will win


You may be right... I spoke to an expert on Emberghers and he told me that there are some genuine Embergher mandolins that were made for Emil Hofmann ones with only an Emil Hofmann label (or no label at all). Also, sometimes there is an original Embergher label and an additional E. Hofmann label. He also mentioned that Hofmann carried Embergher copies  (like PeterK's Belcanrto that were not made by the Embergher workshop.

PeterK noticed another Embergher copy on *this thread.*

Hey, you learn something new everyday. I would love to see some examples of the genuine Emberghers with Hofmann label.

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## Martin Veit

Jim, you make my day  :Smile:

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## Jim Garber

Now, you just have to find one of those Emberghers disguised as Hofmanns.  :Smile:

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## Martin Veit

Let me take a sharp look at the belcanto/Hofmann mandolin, 
which my orchestra-companion is playing.
Hey, keep your fingers crossed for me  :Wink: 

..uhm - the guys at embergher didn't mention something about that bass?

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## Jim Garber

Martin: My friend said that the Belcanto instruments were not made by Embergher.

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## Martin Veit

Okay, it's a pity therefor.

But, which brand is it?

I have to do a good look into this cabinet where the bass has rested a long time.
One of the old menbers of our orchestra told me, that this cabinet was made espacialy for the bass.
Maybe there are some old signs.

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## peterk

Well, gents, some day I'll remove the "Belcanto" plaque, and you will be looking at my mandolin with admiration once the Emburger stamp reveals itself. :Whistling:

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## barney 59

I was watching that Emberger as well and then spaced at the end. I'm actually glad that you got it,maybe even more than if I had. The great lesson here is that there are sometimes deals on ebay --still!-- though I find that it's getting rarer and rarer.

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## Martin Veit

barney, i think, the laugh is, that here in Germany a many bowlback goes into the bay for very low prizes,
where on the other hand the F- and A-Shapes are rare and expensive.
It seems, that in the US it is reverse. Many F- and A-Shapes and low Bowlbacks in the bay.

So - why not make a GMTA = *G*entlemans *M*andolin *T*ransfer *A*greement  :Grin: 

well - as you say: Great minds think alike.  :Wink:

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## Jim Garber

It is a buyer/bidder's market on eBay and has been for the last few years with the exception of highly desirable instruments. Martin, in the US bowlbacks have been pretty much ignored and called wall-hangers. In bluegrass circles and even in most other genres, rarely does anyone play one. It is only the last decade or so that players have come to appreciate them duly in a large part to interest and discussion right here on these Cafe forums. During the early days of the 19th century in both Europe and North America there was a great amount of them made. Unfortunately many were low end and there are even dealers out there who do not really distinguish between the quality mandolins and the budget ones.

In any case, I do not think that bowlbacks are revered here and get higher price than in Europe. It is relatively rare to find Emberghers, Calaces or Vinaccias or even other vintage quality bowlbacks over here. They seem to be more in Italy, Germany and the UK. There are people like myself and a few of my esteemed cohorts here who do appreciate and play them but the majority of mandolin players here prefer the more standard F and A models.

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## Martin Veit

Jim, i agree with you.
In my Opinion, it is, because here in Europe esp. in Germany there is a great value
of "zupforchester" aka. mandolin-orchestras. That founds on historical development.
From the ending of the nineteenth century on, there was the "wanderlust movement" or also called the "Naturfreunde".
It was some kind of extraparliamentary opposition. 
And these people often came together, doing mandolin-orchestras.
On that, the massmarket have depended. 
You can regognize such movements here in germany at each time when people are out of political opression. Most of the mandolinorchestras are foundet in the early 1920s.
From these people, a lot of instruments are now left to their issues. 
And 'cause a lot of them don't play mandolin music and often has no roots in music at all, they sell these instruments on ebay without knowlegde about the "real" prize.
So it is possible to purchase a _puglisi_ mandolin for 50€.  :Wink: 

For me, it seems, as if in US it may be similar, although there are a lot more F-Shapes and A-Shapes on the market and less bowlbacks.
I think, this is 'cause US Luthiers did more mandolins of that kind. 
You have to look to the kind of Folkmusic in the US and in Germany. That are two pairs of shoes  :Smile:  
US Folkmusic (Bluegrass and similar kinds of music) as i notice is founded on a lot of celtic _folk_ roots.
 Sure, there is although the influence of german _Volksmusik_ which our emigrants had brought with them, 
but the fiddle and the mandolin or all the cister kinds are heavy in folk music.
The german _Volksmusik_ or should i say _Zupfmusik_ as is ment as camber music is more based on the classic styled instruments. 
Bowlbacks are more filigran alike violins than guitars. 
Classic mandolin music imitats more the kind of symphonic music than folk music.

Here in europe, in the last years, the - should i say - international folk music is a rising star.
Bands like mumford an suns for eg. are hot. And on that, a lot of young musicians are in to handmade music.
_Unplugged_ or _acoustic_ is still very attractiv. 
Playing the mandolin in folk style is fun. And a lot of these mandolin players are looking for F-Styles or A-Styles.

oh - and please forgive me my very unorthodox kind of grammar. Fingers are sometimes faster than the brain  :Whistling:

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## Jim Garber

Martin, you speak (or type) English very well, certainly much better than I speak German (not at all). 

One question: please explain this: 



> Bowlbacks are more filigran alike violins than guitars.


The history of mandolin orchestras is very similar to Germany. I was a member of an orchestra in New York that started around 1924 that still is in existence today and celebrating their 90th anniversary. I believe the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra is even older. I just have a feeling tho that classical mandolin is taken more seriously in Germany than here partly due to the work of Marga Wilden-Huesgen who started the modern classical mandolin pedagogy there.

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## Martin Veit

Yepp - what i try to figure out is, that the bowlback mandolins
are builded much filigraner in contrast to the Flatbacks.
More alike the violins for eg.
In my eyes are Flatbacks much more robust.

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## Jim Garber

Do you mean they are built lighter? That is very true of the better bowlbacks. My Emberghers are super-light.

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## peterk

I think Martin is using a German language simile which is not very common in N. American English.......i.e., to be filigree-like.
By that he probably means that bb mandolins appear "dainty" or "delicate" in build compared to some other modern mandolin types.

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## Martin Veit

Peter, didn't i say so ?  :Crying:   :Grin:  :Disbelief: 

Sometimes it's hard in writing english.
Without daily practice, you loose so much auf your skills.
And i won't use a grammarbook or a dictionary everytime.
But it seems as if it is necessary to do so.

Okay, than it has to be more english lecture or so to sharpen the tongue  :Redface:

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## Jim Garber

I thought I understood... I just wanted to make sure. So, Martin V: do you play mandolin and what kinds of music do you play?

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## peterk

> Peter, didn't i say so ?  
> 
> Sometimes it's hard in writing english.
> Without daily practice, you loose so much auf your skills.
> And i won't use a grammarbook or a dictionary everytime.
> But it seems as if it is necessary to do so.
> 
> Okay, than it has to be more english lecture or so to sharpen the tongue


No worry, Martin, your written English is excellent. Besides, from the etymology standpoint, your "filigran" makes more sense than English "filigree". :Wink:

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## Martin Veit

Ouch - anyway.
For me, _filigree_ sounds a bit like a can of dogfood  :Wink:  nay, that is pedigree.
But, if i 'd used _delicate_, thats more like something to eat.
And _dainty_ was out of side. But if 've to learn. So _dainty_ is it!
Like in Dainty Daisy from Gordon Lightfoot. More like _fairy_ or _lightly_ or _fluffy_.... :Grin: 

Holy Shyt,already again the germans with their perfectness!

Thank you all for your understanding. I 'm proud to be in this _Kraut_  :Smile:   uups - crowd

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## Jim Garber

Filigree is not the right word, at least in English: 




> fil·i·gree
> ˈfiləˌgrē/
> noun
> noun: filigree; plural noun: filigrees; noun: filagree; plural noun: filagrees
> 
>     1.
>     ornamental work of fine (typically gold or silver) wire formed into delicate tracery.
>     "delicate silver filigree earrings"
>     synonyms: tracery, fretwork, latticework, scrollwork, lacework, quilling


Perhaps you mean lightweight and/or fragile when referring to bowlbacks?

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## Martin Veit

Jim, yes i do.
And it goes in the direction that mandolin-orchestras plays more ethereal like symphonic orchestras (do SO play so?-hmm)
and Bowlbacks are the first choice for MO.
On the other hand, country/folk/bluegrass/whatsever is more down-to-earth 
and my sight of it it's often the F-Shaped mandolins.
Its surely a very subjective view.
Anyway - this Thread is about pictures of Bowlbacks and it wasn't my intention
to turn the topic.

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## Jim Garber

I was thinking that we could start another thread in the classical section. 

In mandolin orchestras in north America, bowlbacks are still rare. I played one and maybe a small handful of others but most play As or Fs. In Europe I think it is very different.

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## Martin Veit

Jim, that would be my pleasure.
Please start these thread.  :Smile:

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## Martin Veit

> I thought I understood... I just wanted to make sure. So, Martin V: do you play mandolin and what kinds of music do you play?


Uups - hadn't seen your question.
Jim, i di play a little bit mandolin, but been more in the "beginners" line.
My first instument is the guitar. But my plan is to go deeper in the mysteries of the little 8-string  :Smile: 

What kind of music? Thats very diffucult to say.
First, i 'm nearly 35 years a member of our mandolin orchestra. Therefor i do all these classic style music.
Furthermore, i am a nativ speaking hessian (that means, our regional dialect ?) and du some folkmusic in this dialect.
You can listen her: 
http://www.noachteule.de/Noachteule_...uusem_Dorf.mp3
http://www.noachteule.de/noachteule_-_s_lappche.mp3
I do a part of the guitar tracks and the mandolin parts on these songs.
And last, but not least, i like to establish a kind of housemusic here in our small village in the purpose of all these anglosaxon housemusicparties i've heard about  :Confused: 

And i like woodworking, so i'm into restauration, esp. guitars an mandolins but only as a hobby.

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## Bill Clements

Hello Martin,
I enjoyed your folk music!

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## Martin Veit

Bill, thank you.
Hard to listen to that dialect? Isn't it?  :Confused:

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## peterk

Those are delightful tunes, Martin.....and the accent I find quite pleasant to my ear although I couldn't understand much of the lyrics themselves.

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## Martin Veit

Someday i will translate them.
But i guess, they will be banned from this Forum.
The second tune tells about ol' grannies household remedies.
It goes about 
... don't worry if it hurts
... do it like granny said and take your pee on it,
... and if that don't work,
... take a rag on it  :Grin:

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## Jim Garber

Here's a strange little piccolo bowlback on eBay UK. It almost looks like a toy and it is hard to tell the quality, tho it doesn't look exceptional. Dimensions: 29cm x 9 cm -  11,43 inch x 3.55 inch.

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## Martucci

Here is the latest Martucci.  Probably built around 1903.  It needed some general cleanup, a top crack repair, and replacement of some missing inlays.

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PiccoloPrincipe

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## Tavy

Wow, you've got to love the workmanship on that - nice mando!

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## Ben Cooper

I know its not a wonderful mandolin, but it is pretty.

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## Ben Cooper

Forgot this one.

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## Petrus

My no-name, open-back, stringless, bridgeless mando.  A work in progress. Sounds great when you tap on it though.

In front of my Legba veve, hoping to bring in a little musical energy.


Setting on my favorite practice / reading space, where I can kill two birds with one stone.


I'm thinking of maybe sticking some electronics inside before I close the back. If I close the back, it'll just be with a flat board -- I'm not going to try to do all those curved ribs.

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## Jim Garber

Petrus: I can see closing up the back but how will you deal with the neck block sticking out?

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## Petrus

> Petrus: I can see closing up the back but how will you deal with the neck block sticking out?


Saw.

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## Jim Garber

You will still have to build up the sides a bit anyway. Post some pics when you get it done.

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## Jim Garber

> I know its not a wonderful mandolin, but it is pretty.


I believe that is a Japanese made bowlback from the 1970s or 1980s.

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## Ben Cooper

> I believe that is a Japanese made bowlback from the 1970s or 1980s.


Yes, I belive so too!  Since we both believe it, it may be true!  Is sounds nice though.... not at nice as my Girouard A, but still nice.

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## Petrus

> You will still have to build up the sides a bit anyway. Post some pics when you get it done.


Okay, but it won't be pretty. Remember, you asked for it.  :Grin: 

Of course at the rate I'm going and given my typical procrastination it'll be around mid-2020.

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## Jim Garber

You sound like me. Only because of a friend with a nice home shop am I finally trying to finish a kit I started a few years ago.

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## derbex

I got lucky with this Ceccherini from ebay, as far as I can see it is in very good condition and, I guess, until recently owned by a player as it came with a selection of picks, the strings aren't too bad -dull but playable and it has a modern hard case. It doesn't really look any older than my Hathway although it was probably made a centuary earlier.



I am surprised how similar it seems, at least to look at, to the deMeglio I bought recently. On close inspection the bowl of the deMeglio is somewhat bigger, but otherwise they look closely related. The deMeglio does have the side vents and the Ceccherini the double top but to look at them face on you would think they were  slightly different models of the same mandolin.

Anyway, can't wait to get the new strings on and see what it really sounds like.

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## Tavy

> I got lucky with this Ceccherini from ebay, as far as I can see it is in very good condition and, I guess, until recently owned by a player as it came with a selection of picks, the strings aren't too bad -dull but playable and it has a modern hard case. It doesn't really look any older than my Hathway although it was probably made a centuary earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> I am surprised how similar it seems, at least to look at, to the deMeglio I bought recently. On close inspection the bowl of the deMeglio is somewhat bigger, but otherwise they look closely related. The deMeglio does have the side vents and the Ceccherini the double top but to look at them face on you would think they were  slightly different models of the same mandolin.
> 
> Anyway, can't wait to get the new strings on and see what it really sounds like.


Congratulations:  if that's the one I think it is, you got the bargain of the year on that one, glad to see it went to a good home!

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## derbex

Cheers, they didn't put the maker in the subject line, so I think it slipped under the radar. The deMeglio I bought was the same, I resorted to blowing up the photo to look at the label on that one -shame I didn't do the same to look at the head  :Redface: 

Must stop now though or the other half will catch on  :Laughing:

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## Bruce Clausen

> Cheers, they didn't put the maker in the subject line, so I think it slipped under the radar.


Nice score. I got mine from a local Craig's List ad. The owner must have guessed the name in the middle of the label was the maker, so the ad said made by Napoli. Her late grandmother's mandolin, and for once that old tale was really true. Hadn't been touched in decades, but needed very little work. Hope you enjoy yours.

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## brunello97

Fair play to you, Derbex.  I love these kinds of stories. Many of us do keep our radars set out there as low as possible, yet still things get  under.  But you folks over there in the UK are in far happier hunting grounds (to mix metaphors) that I can only look at with envy from Stateside.   

There is a concurrent thread about someone who picked up a Gibson Snakehead Jr for $295 off Craigslist.  About every couple years or so I find myself on the lucky end of mandolin findings. But it is a Zen thing: the joy is in the looking.

Please post more pictures.  The Ceccherini - DeMeglio comp has been the source of numerous conversations here.  I'd love to see other photos of yours.

Mick

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## peterk

John, if it came with a Suzuki case, that should be the one. :Crying: 
Congratulations, Derbex, a lucky star shone upon you that day. :Whistling:

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## peterk

> Nice score. I got mine from a local Craig's List ad. *The owner must have guessed the name in the middle of the label was the maker, so the ad said made by Napoli*. Her late grandmother's mandolin, and for once that old tale was really true. Hadn't been touched in decades, but needed very little work. Hope you enjoy yours.


Bruce, that's funny. :Grin:  My favourite comical eBay listing was for an old mandolin made by "Casa Fondata" in 1837. :Mandosmiley:  I can't remember the real maker's name.

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## derbex

Here a few Ceccherini - DeMeglio comparison photos. 









The Ceccherini has the fancier inlay.

Excuse the strings on the deMeglio, I don't want to cut them down until I have finished playing with the bridge. The deMeglio is in a bit of a sorrier state, I mentioned elsewhere that tuners have been badly replaced, in addition the fretboard is a bit worn and knocked about, although still usable, funnily the frets themselves don't seem too bad. It's also missing a small pieace of the edge binding. All that said it's playable and I like the noise it makes, so it's probably a keeper, that may become a project  :Smile:

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## peterk

I wonder sometimes if Ceccherini was merely an upscale De Meglio's line of mandolins dedicated to the UK market, similar to the relationship which exists between Accura and Honda.  Has anybody ever seen a Ceccherini's handwritten signature, or perhaps his business/workshop address ? How about Ceccherini's mandolin labels which are devoid of any importer/retailer names ? 

I think we need someone to do a thorough research on the De Meglios, Ceccherinis , Vinaccia etc., similar to what the Hills have done on Stradivari and Guarneri. Moreover, by European standards,  notable people and events of about 100 years ago is not "deep" history at all.

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## brunello97

I want to imagine that there was a _real_ Mandolin Cafe (with proper coffee) where these guys hung out in Napoli in 1892 talking shop and comparing their instruments. 

Here's a signed Ceccherini label.  Most of the ones I have in my files have the signature in this orientation, though some differ as does the color ink.  Handwriting looks the same.

I haven't seen a Ceccherini label with an Italian street address yet.  If he did win a prize in 1881 I wonder if there are examples of his work around before hooking up with his London agents.

Thanks for getting those photos up Derbex!  Great to see those two side by side. I hope you get the DeMeglio up and running soon.  

Mick

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peterk

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## peterk

The handwritten signature reads "Umberto Ceccherini", but no workshop address, no year of making, and the ubiquitous Voigt's name is on it.
I just can't stop thinking about a mandolin auctioned recently in France which had a J. Pietrapertosa (Paris) label, but every bit of it looked like a Ceccherini's upper echelon instrument. I guess I was not the only one thinking "Ceccherini", because the mandolin sold for something like 650 Euro.

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## Jim Garber

Interesting... here is that *Pietrapertosa mandolin*. It does resemble a Ceccherini. I assume that it has a double soundboard since those brass "staples" are on the top behind the bridge. here are some photos for historical purposes (when eBay no longer has the sale live).

Pietrapertosa also published a method book. I wonder if he commissioned Ceccherini to make mandolins with his name on the label.

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PiccoloPrincipe

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## Bruce Clausen

> The handwritten signature reads "Umberto Ceccherini", but no workshop address, no year of making, and the ubiquitous Voigt's name is on it.


Good point. As with many of these trade names, we don't know if Ceccherini was a builder, an owner of a workshop, or merely a suitably Italian sounding brand name to put on export instruments. The violin world is full of such made-up names.

I like those instruments labeled Vinaccia Brothers that have the handwritten signature "Vinaccia Brothers" written twice in two different hands. But at least you get a date and an address.

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## peterk

> I assume that it has a double soundboard since those brass "staples" are on the top behind the bridge.


Jim, are you referring to those four string tensioners as "brass staples" ? If I were to make a guess, I'd say those tensioners would be there whether the instrument is provisioned with an inner soundboard or not. I am not even sure the tensioners screw all the way into the 2nd soundboard. However, all guessing aside, I'd like an opportunity to examine a Ceccherini mandolin......I should've been bidding more earnestly on that Pietrapertosa/Ceccherini(?). :Frown: 

Furthermore, if we ponder on it a bit, the Pietrapertosa's label is quite odd: it reads "Fabrica di mandolini Napolitani", and then he writes his Paris address which he was also using as the publisher's address for his method booklets. I would also think that attaching Ceccherini's name to the mandolins, assuming that mandolin is a bona fide Ceccherini,  would fortify their market appeal. The A. Voigt's labels feature Ceccherini's name very prominently, thus in the United Kingdom the Ceccherini mandolin brand must have been viewed favourably. Yet not so in Paris ?

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## peterk

> I like those instruments labeled Vinaccia Brothers that have the handwritten signature "Vinaccia Brothers" written twice in two different hands.


Bruce, that is interesting....I didn't know that.

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## Bruce Clausen

For example, some of the labels posted by Jim here:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...l=1#post942344

Graham's explanation (post 35 in that thread) sounds oddly logical.

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## Jim Garber

Honestly, Peter, I haven't a clue whether Ceccherini was more recognized as a quality instrument even in Italy. It seems from the photos of the Pietrapertosa that it has a double soundboard. Perhaps we need to do more research into all of this. There were many ex-pat Italians in other cities. If Sr. P was originally from Napoli and teaching in Paris, he prob wanted his students to know his origins and likely was importing mandolins from Napoli. 

As for Voigt, if he was exclusively importing Ceccherini's mandolins into the UK than he may only have been selling them there. We don't really know, do we?

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## derbex

> Jim, are you referring to those four string tensioners as "brass staples" ? If I were to make a guess, I'd say those tensioners would be there whether the instrument is provisioned with an inner soundboard or not. I am not even sure the tensioners screw all the way into the 2nd soundboard. ?


I'm pretty sure that they don't, I had to take all the strings off to replace the leather pad so I waggled a string between the sounboards and it didn't seem to meet any obstructions.

----------

peterk

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## peterk

Well, some makers from Naples went an extra mile when authenticating their mandolins with handwritten signatures: compared to the De Meglios, the Vinaccia brothers with their double signature do not seem peculiar any longer. :Grin:  :Grin:

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## peterk

Here is Sophie Davies with her De Meglio, year 1898. The artist who made the sketch apparently had a very keen eye for detail veracity.

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## Jim Garber

> Here is Sophie Davies with her De Meglio, year 1898. The artist who made the sketch apparently had a very keen eye for detail veracity.


At the bottom it says "From a Photograph by A. Ramano..." I think... so they sketched from the photo. Neat. Do you own that one Peter?

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## Jim Garber

I think there are a few Demeglios in this group. I had posted some details on the Antique Photo thread.

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## peterk

> At the bottom it says "From a Photograph by A. Ramano..." I think... so they sketched from the photo. Neat. Do you own that one Peter?


No, Jim, that was the closest mandolin to the sketched one which I could find on the internet. 
There is currently one fancy De Meglio being auctioned on eBay, with the starting bid of 800 Euro. That one has a different MOP inlay style in the soundboard edge band, and also that metal applique on the headstock. Inlaid sleeveguard too.
 If it wasn't for the headstock shape and the string tensioner design, one could confuse a fancy De Meglio for a fancy  Ceccherini.

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## peterk

> I think there are a few Demeglios in this group. I had posted some details on the Antique Photo thread.


Yes, so do I. A very neat photo. It's interesting that a few of them have ribbons hanging from the headstock, following the old German folk music custom.

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## brunello97

> I think there are a few Demeglios in this group. I had posted some details on the Antique Photo thread.


I like how the women all fixed their hair to resemble the DeMeglio headstock.  Nice accessorizing.

Mick

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## peterk

I've just stumbled upon another old English photo where the mandolin looks like it belongs to the De Meglio '"System"....it's hard for me to be more precise than that. There is something odd to be seen inside the soundhole where one would just expect to see dark shade.
What is really interesting is that the photograph's seller dates it to yr 1870. I wonder if someone has a De Meglio mandolin with such an early date ? Granted, the photograph might have been dated wrong.

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## peterk

Here's another English photo from 1903: mandolin player Miss Anita Arabella with her De Meglio (system) mandolin.

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## derbex

"There is something odd to be seen inside the soundhole where one would just expect to see dark shade."

My Ceccherini looks a bit like that if held at a similar angle, it's the double table. Head looks like my deMeglo though  :Confused:

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## peterk

> "There is something odd to be seen inside the soundhole where one would just expect to see dark shade."
> 
> My Ceccherini looks a bit like that if held at a similar angle, it's the double table. Head looks like my deMeglo though


That is exactly the dilemma I had.......I also thought that whitish "thing" seen inside the soundhole could be the reinforcement truss (looking oversized for some reason ?) which was normally placed close to the soundhole, under the pickguard, as shown quite accurately on the 2nd picture above of Miss Arabella.

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## Jim Garber

I just figured I bump this thread. I set it up years ago as a companion to the *Bowlbacks of Note* thread. There are some interesting discussions here.

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## John Uhrig

My Eastman Bowlback. I've had it for just a little over 2 months now. Liking it more everyday.

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brunello97, 

DavidKOS

----------

