# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Crosspicking

## irokcj5

Just a quick background on my skill level.   Been playing at mandolin on and off for several years.  I can chord the basic g, c, d, and some minor chords, play a few fiddle tunes if they're not too fast, and know a few scales.   So in essence I'm not a mandolin player, just play one a little.  I also play rhythm guitar ok.   Now my question about cross picking.  There are a lot of YouTube videos and banjo Ben that shows the technique, but they fly and make it seem so effortless and I'm really starting to feel like I may never be able to cross pick.  I practice sloooowly, and then pick up some speed.  I'm ok as long as I can concentrate, down, up, up, down, up, up.....but the first time I try to finger a string on left hand, it all gets shot to $/);!!!  How long did it take some of you to actually play cross picking style.   Wondering if I should just throw in the towel cause my brain just don't work that way.

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## bigskygirl

Crosspicking is an incredibly hard thing to do fast and well, I don't think you should throw in the towel this soon but rather adjust your expectation of how long it will take you to get comfortable with the technique and build speed.

Check out Jordan Ramsey...he's been studying the Jessie McReynolds style for sometime now, I was at ROW Camp with him last year and he talked about how long it has taken him to get comfortable with the technique and that he's got almost 100 tunes under his belt and still works hard at it.

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Denny Gies

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## A-board

It's a process and I, too, struggle with it. Start with the down-up motion on adjacent open strings, very slowly. Then try fretting one string through 4 fingers, do-re-mi-fa, then repeat with fretting the other string. In each case play the other string open. Use a metronome to gradually help you recognize progress as you speed it up. When you get fast enough to lose control back off and slow down.

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## Fretfet2

In my opinion, this is an intermediate to advanced skill from what I can tell. It requires the proper picking direction but also knowledge of the double stops up the neck that will make it work for various melodies. Otherwise when you pick the three strings you might not be the chord or key you need. Not sure Im explaining well. Not something to give up on. Just something to work on. Like many things not as easy as it looks. I have been working with a while and I'm only at a beginning stage. I was not sure what goes wrong for you to comment on how to fix but just wanted to offer some encouragement.

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## JeffD

> How long did it take some of you to actually play cross picking style.



I have gone through two or three bouts of learning it all over again. First time it took about a month or maybe 6 weeks. Shorter subsequently. 

I get into it, practice it all the time for a while, and then, since it doesn't get used much in my playing, the technique just rusts away.

I think the best thing would be to have a reason to crosspick.  To be performing or jamming regularly with crosspicking, so that any progress made stays put.




> Wondering if I should just throw in the towel cause my brain just don't work that way.


Never! Use the towel to wipe off the sweat of your aggressive practicing!

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billkilpatrick

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## Mandoplumb

I have been cross picking for years, when started trying I had been playing for years. As has been said I think you need to know the fretboard pretty well so double stops within the chords come natural. Then you need to get the sound of the rhythm in your head. I remember sitting in front of a reel to reel recorder ( a lot of you have never seen one ) and recording the "roll" of cross picking without changing the notes for the length of a reel ( about 1/2 hour ) then listening back to see if I was ever getting the sound right. After several session I was getting the roll then the work of making it fit the melody I was playing. I don't play a banjo but I suspect that it is a lot like that.

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## DougBrock

I'm on-again off-again with mandolin, too, so can relate to your situation. From your description of your knowledge (the "basic g, c, d and some minor chords"), I would think you'd be better off focusing on the foundations of mandolin playing. Learn more chords, in open and closed forms. Learn the various movable three-finger forms for major, minor, dominant 7's, diminished and augmented -  the three-finger forms can be great fun and can help you really learn the fretboard. As others have said, learn to use double stops, if you aren't already good at throwing them into your playing. Double-stops will immediately give you lots of fun flavors to add to your playing, whether soloing or in accompaniment, and they'll be important when and if you really get into cross-picking. Don't hesitate to experiment with cross-picking, of course, but put most of your focus into strong foundation. Hang in there!

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## irokcj5

Thanks for all the good advice!  At least I feel better that it's not easy.  Some excellent ideas on what to work on.  Guess I've been lost on what to work on.  I'm tired of fiddle tunes and don't have anyone to play music with, so i find myself just floundering on my own with no direction.  I'll back up and work on the building blocks you all suggested.   Thanks again

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## Mandoplumb

Don't know where you are but you need to find someone to pic with.find a jam set in back of you have to find another picker you can get with once a week or once a month but pick with someone. You'll find advancement is easier of you do.

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## irokcj5

> Don't know where you are but you need to find someone to pic with.find a jam set in back of you have to find another picker you can get with once a week or once a month but pick with someone. You'll find advancement is easier of you do.


Agree completely.    Anyone near Lafayette, Louisiana

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## Mark Wilson

Crosspicking is hard imo.  Give it a small part of your daily practice and a couple years to get up to speed

I found I could first get cross picking up to speed over chords (no melody)in moderate tempo songs and that is good exercise if you are playing with others.

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## trabb

> I found I could first get cross picking up to speed over chords (no melody)in moderate tempo songs and that is good exercise if you are playing with others.


You got to this before I did, but I don't think it's possible to overestimate how effective this can be if you're playing accompaniment and use this sparingly.  Most of my playing is in a church setting, and on a lot of our songs, doing this on one verse out of 3 or 4 really adds something.  Any more and it would feel like overkill.

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## Glassweb

i spoke with Andy Statman last week (he who wrote the rare and amazing book that covers every aspect of Jesse's playing... also a master of his cross picking and split string style) and he told me the reason Jesse got branded as a "stylist" of sorts was because of the difficulty involved in mastering this style. a whole different way of approaching the mandolin for sure...

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## Jeroen

I think Jesse McReynolds was always recognized as a brilliant and very versatile innovator. I don't think he ever got "branded" (does that mean labelled, in a negative way?) as a stylist by anyone. I am curious what Andy Statman is referring to, there.

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## Denny Gies

Yes it is difficult.  I can do some stuff slowly and will never be close to Jesse.  But, it is fun to throw in some cross pickin' on some slow tunes.

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## Mandoplumb

[QUote
Jeroen;1545984]I think Jesse McReynolds was always recognized as a brilliant and very versatile innovator. I don't think he ever got "branded" (does that mean labelled, in a negative way?) as a stylist by anyone. I am curious what Andy Statman is referring to, there.[/QUOTE]

I don't see anything negative about branded or stylist. I agree with the statement. You can count on one hand the real stylist in 
any music. Most great mandolin players in the last 50 years have built on those before that is their style developed from those that
 came before. Who before McRenoylds was splitting strings or playing a roll with a flat pic. Geroge Shufler on guitar similar I don't 
Know who was first, but regardless he was first on mandolin. As someone who does my own version of cross picking on guitar and
 mandolin I can say it's different when you only have four "strings" to work with. We give Scruggs credit for the roll on the banjo
when he really wasn't the first but I've never heard of anyone doing cross picking on mandolin before McRenoylds so why not "brand" him  a "stylist"

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Jeroen

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## Glassweb

i've been called a "stylist" with my playing and i took it as a compliment! better a stylist than a "stylus" - a little, pointy-headed thing that gets stuck in one groove and keeps going around in circles...

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Billkwando, 

Jeroen, 

michaelcj

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## Bill Slovin

I just bought a copy of Andy Statman's long out of print book that details Jesse's playing.  I've been crosspicking for close to a year now and I have the basic d-u-u-d-u-u-d-u roll down but I find that when I try to push the tempo I get to a point where everything falls apart and tension builds up in my right arm.  Right now I use the same right hand posture that I use for normal melody playing which is a semi closed hand with no fingers touching the top of the mando. 

In Andy's book he talks about how Jesse adapted his right hand specifically for crosspicking by anchoring his pinky and playing with more thumb and first finger action.  Have any of you had success with crosspicking up to speed without using Jesse's specific technique?  From looking at players who are deep into this style like Jordan Ramsey, he is using Jesse's right hand technique.  I'm questioning whether it's really worth it to make such a drastic right hand change since I'm concerned that other aspects of my playing would suffer as a result.

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## Mark Wilson

maybe you can have both techniques without causing problems

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## Jordan Ramsey

> I just bought a copy of Andy Statman's long out of print book that details Jesse's playing.  I've been crosspicking for close to a year now and I have the basic d-u-u-d-u-u-d-u roll down but I find that when I try to push the tempo I get to a point where everything falls apart and tension builds up in my right arm.  Right now I use the same right hand posture that I use for normal melody playing which is a semi closed hand with no fingers touching the top of the mando. 
> 
> In Andy's book he talks about how Jesse adapted his right hand specifically for crosspicking by anchoring his pinky and playing with more thumb and first finger action.  Have any of you had success with crosspicking up to speed without using Jesse's specific technique?  From looking at players who are deep into this style like Jordan Ramsey, he is using Jesse's right hand technique.  I'm questioning whether it's really worth it to make such a drastic right hand change since I'm concerned that other aspects of my playing would suffer as a result.


Hey Bill, although I was a pinky planter when I first started crosspicking, I've never used the circular index/thumb movement that Jesse uses.  My pick grip has always been stationary with motion coming from either my forearm (with pinky planted) or wrist with no planting.  Here's a comparison of my early technique vs my current technique.

Early:



Current:



Now watch Jesse...  he doesn't really "plant" as much as he just touches his pinky on the pickguard.  His forearm is stationary, he's playing with a combination of wrist and finger movement:




As far as speed, you just have to be consistent and patient.  Jesse says in that book that it took him four or five years from when he started before he was using it on stage.  Track your progress with a metronome....  find your "wall" in terms of relaxed speed.  I.e. where can you control the roll, where is it too fast?  Find the specific metronomic number where you start to break down and focus on relaxing in that zone until you can raise the bar.  Rinse and repeat.  Best of luck,

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9lbShellhamer, 

gregorx, 

Johnny60, 

Kevin K, 

Mark Wilson, 

MikeZito

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## billkilpatrick

I started a weekly challenge to improve my cross-picking - such as it is - and found the last week sounded pretty much like the first.  JeffD's advice is good - instead of learning to cross-pick for its own sake, practice with a purpose in mind.  Good luck.

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Bill Slovin

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## William Smith

The real trick is to try McReynolds split string useage when cross picking! Now thats nuts! "when he's playing just using 1 string instead of using both strings to get the same note" KRAZY pickin right there. I seen him in 2005 at the Station Inn with Mac Wiseman and a few other pickers were there My Uncle Gene Johnson "who is a wicked player/tenor singer who for 30 years has been with Diamond Rio" turned to me with a grin and said did ya get all that! Yeh right :Disbelief:  Something I'll never forget.

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Bill Slovin

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## Mark Wilson

> As far as speed, you just have to be consistent and patient.  Jesse says in that book that it took him four or five years from when he started before he was using it on stage.


Always good advice and perspective Jordan. Thx

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Bill Slovin

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## John Flynn

I have my crosspicking down reasonably well. I don't consider myself an expert, I'm just saying what's helped me. As Yogi Berra would have said, "It's 90% mental. The other half is physical."

I learned by not concentrating so much on the the technique itself, but finding tunes I really liked with not-too-hard crosspicking parts in them and trying to re-create that sound. To me, that was more clarifying and motivating, than just sitting there doing DUU, apropos of nothing.I changed my technique. My instructor taught me DUD for cross-picking and he does it really well that way. I found DUU to work better for me. If one way is giving you a hard time, try the other. They both work.I envision DUU as an extension of DUD regular picking. It's just that the "U" goes twice the distance, so it's more like "DU-DU-" if that makes any sense.I practice left and right hand separately. I start just arpeggiating chords with crosspicking and doing melody-and-chord with more conventional picking. Only when I have the left and the right down solid do I attempt doing both at the same time.

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Bill Slovin, 

PhilGox

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## Bill Slovin

All great suggestions, thanks Jordan for all your ideas and the videos.  Thanks John for your thoughts.  

I'm going to stick with my current right hand technique for a while and focus on slowly working past that metronome setting where I'm right at my wall.  In just the last couple of days I've moved up about 6 BPMs.  Using muted strings and just working the right hand seems to be a good approach.  Now I'm working on the pattern d-u-u-d-u-u-d-u-d-u-d-u-u which is what a lot of McReynold's tunes use.  I'm guessing it's about forgetting to think about the pattern and having it become automatic for the hand so that my brain then has some room to think about the moves the left hand is going to have to make to actually play a tune.

Regardless of how close I get to Jesse, Jordan, or any of you folks out there, this process is lots of fun and has given me a whole new perspective on what the right hand can do.  I'll post a video of in a few days.

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## Bill Slovin

> The real trick is to try McReynolds split string useage when cross picking! Now thats nuts! "when he's playing just using 1 string instead of using both strings to get the same note" KRAZY pickin right there. I seen him in 2005 at the Station Inn with Mac Wiseman and a few other pickers were there My Uncle Gene Johnson "who is a wicked player/tenor singer who for 30 years has been with Diamond Rio" turned to me with a grin and said did ya get all that! Yeh right Something I'll never forget.


Yeah, that sounds crazy.  The split string thing doesn't really seem as practical to me as crosspicking does.  I find that I can throw a bit of crosspicking into almost any slow to medium tempo tune and it always draws someone's attention.  Inevitably they end up asking me what that was.

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## Mark Wilson

> Current:


Man that is so sweet!!  Did the spot of finish rub come from the early planting technique?

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## William Smith

Well Jesse can do the split stringing all over the place and it sounded pretty darn good to me, clear and wicked!

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## Bill Slovin

> Well Jesse can do the split stringing all over the place and it sounded pretty darn good to me, clear and wicked!


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't sound good.  It sounds awesome, especially from someone who's really mastered it.  It's just that for me learning crosspicking gives me more tone colors than split string playing does.

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## PhilGox

Hello,

John Flynn said:



> I learned by not concentrating so much on the the technique itself, but finding tunes I really liked with not-too-hard crosspicking parts in them and trying to re-create that sound. To me, that was more clarifying and motivating, than just sitting there doing DUU, apropos of nothing.


I approve this a lot!

I've been struggling without succes with all the duuduududud academic techniques and had the feeling to learn morse code that would bring me to nowhere.
And a little voice in my head who said: "Months or years to master it?? Are you serious??? You can't wait for so long!!"

So I tried another approach that looks like what John Flynn mentions above.
When I hear a crosspicking playing that I like and seem reasonnable for my level, I try to play this way at the same tempo.
I let my fingers and pick do what they want till I find my playing is approaching what I want to hear.
At the begining it is very approximative.
Then I reduce the tempo and analyse what my right hand do.
I make little adjustments to play it cleaner with a metronome.
Then faster and faster to the desired tempo.

This technique won't give me the perfect crosspicking but something approaching a little.
And it is much more motivating to me because I can use what I learn in my band without waiting for years of practice.
I admit that it's a lazy way of learning.

I am not saying that academic DuuDuu techniques are not worth to be learned.
But while the time we master it, we have to play music.

Have a good day  :Smile:

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## Mandoplumb

I have cross picked for several years, I listened to McReynolds and Shuffler, but I was also raised by a banjo picker. I notice that several of you in describing cross picking say  DUU 2or3 times then DUDU why? Like a BG banjo picker I break roll only when needed, some times going to a 4 note roll forward backward or in out. But as much as possible just a 3note roll DUU. Do y'all try to work the DUDU into the pattern, if so how can you keep the roll going? I try to mimic a BG banjo, don't see how that can be done if you are hard set in a strict pattern, banjo players ain't. What made Scruggs was his free right hand, yet a constant roll.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Mark Wilson

DUUDUUDU makes for an even 8 strokes - it works - other than that I dunno

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## ampyjoe

> I have cross picked for several years, I listened to McReynolds and Shuffler, but I was also raised by a banjo picker. I notice that several of you in describing cross picking say  DUU 2or3 times then DUDU why? Like a BG banjo picker I break roll only when needed, some times going to a 4 note roll forward backward or in out. But as much as possible just a 3note roll DUU. Do y'all try to work the DUDU into the pattern, if so how can you keep the roll going? I try to mimic a BG banjo, don't see how that can be done if you are hard set in a strict pattern, banjo players ain't. What made Scruggs was his free right hand, yet a constant roll.


I think keeping the roll going as you describe really helps the effect. But sometimes you have to break the roll with a DU to get a melody note in. Which I guess is what you're saying. Listening the Jordan's beautiful playing on I'll Fly Away, it sounds to me that he's doing that and not simply playing DUUDUUDU over and over.

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## Kevin K

That version of I'll Fly Away is fantastic, really like it.

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## ccravens

Penny Clark (and Ben) does a good job of going over the d-u-u.

I've enjoyed, and had success lately, with the d-d-u (d-d-u-d-d-u-d-u).

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Kris N

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## Billkwando

I'm not sure I'm clear on what the definition of cross picking is, and I wonder if it's something I'm already doing and just didn't realize it had a name. Could somebody take a look at this old video of mine and tell me if that looks like it, or if there's a factor I'm misunderstanding? It's at the 4 minute mark if the play button doesn't automatically jump you to it (it should).




I just think of it as arpeggio picking, assuming it's the same thing. I'm been playing R.E.M. songs almost since I first picked up a guitar (over 30 years ago), and 97.2% of it is arpeggios.  :Wink:   :Laughing:

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## sblock

> I have cross picked for several years, I listened to McReynolds and Shuffler, but I was also raised by a banjo picker. I notice that several of you in describing cross picking say  DUU 2or3 times then DUDU why? Like a BG banjo picker I break roll only when needed, some times going to a 4 note roll forward backward or in out. But as much as possible just a 3note roll DUU. Do y'all try to work the DUDU into the pattern, if so how can you keep the roll going? I try to mimic a BG banjo, don't see how that can be done if you are hard set in a strict pattern, banjo players ain't. What made Scruggs was his free right hand, yet a constant roll.


As a bluegrass banjo player myself (2nd place in Winfield in 1978), I can tell you that you are somewhat mistaken in your description of the banjo roll(s) used in Scruggs-style banjo. You don't just keep repeating groups of three notes, in some type of "constant roll."  _You do nothing of the kind, in fact!_  Unless playing a waltz, Scruggs-style banjo rolls are designed in *patterns of 8 notes* to fit 2/4 and 4/4 time measures. The forward, backward, and reverse banjo rolls (and also the "Dillard roll", a fourth fairly common pattern) all fit into into this category. The forward, backward, and reverse rolls all consist of two groups of three notes being played in succession followed by a group of two notes, for a total of eight. _This is exactly like the Jesse McReynolds cross-pick, in fact_.  On the banjo, these rolls almost always start with the thumb and end on middle or first finger. (In the Dillard roll, there are two groups of four, for a total of eight, and you start with the middle finger, not the thumb).   Banjo players think in terms of groups of eight notes, not groups of three, when playing in 2/4 time.

In Scruggs-style banjo, you have the option of varying the _strings used_ for the roll, but only somewhat: there aren't a whole lot of choices without destroying the roll, and you can also "drop your thumb" into the higher strings for this purpose. You can also vary the _type of roll_, in order to pick up as many melody notes as possible, but you always have to begin a new roll with a different finger than the one used to finish the previous roll (which is why most start with the thumb and end with the middle or index). You can also stop, pinch, or produce a longer note for a brief time. These constraints are considerable, and they prevent true melody line from being played in many cases.  This problem led, of course, to other developments, like the Keith "melodic" style, and the Reno "single-string" style, which are freed from some of these constraints.

Anyway, the McReynolds cross-pick is actually a much closer version of the backwards roll on the banjo than you seem to suppose.  It uses two groups of three followed by one group of two, and sometimes gets 'broken' to pick up melody notes, as necessary.

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gregorx

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## Mandoplumb

My dad was one of the best banjo players I've heard and I don't think he thought in 3 note or 8 note, he just played with a free right hand. He may have been doing what you said, and I may be doing what you and others have described but my point is we don't think in those terms. The music is in the roll and keep the roll going and sound musical and not mechanical.I'll probably ruffle some feathers but for an example J D Crowe sounds as if his concentration is in patterns as opposed to Scruggs that playes free handed. Just my opinion.

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## gregorx

Two years and still going at it each day. I don't use the pinky as I found any resting of fingers or hand on the strings or mandolin slows my playing down.
This is the BEST CROSSPICKING tutorial on YouTube I have come across in my online search by far:

MUSICMOOSEDOTORG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmKg2TEr1TY&t=313s

greg

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FredK

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## Rickker

I have been following this thread with interest.  Back in the late 70's I bought a copy of Jack Tottle's "Bluegrass Mandolin", which included a vinyl disc recording of some of the tunes.  I was blown away with the crosspicking version of "Home Sweet Home", and proceeded to work at it, and work at it....It was slow going, but after a month of two, I was playing that tune and also "Black Diamond" reasonably well. (By a month or two, I mean playing it every day for at least half an hour.  You have to stick with it.)   A few years later I purchased a copy of Andy Statman's book and worked through a number of Jesse's arrangements.  I learned some of the crosspicking tunes, but gave up on others.  You not only have to develop the mechanics of the rolls and positions, but also need to have memorized the pick directions.  In those days I was playing with a planted right hand, with my 4th and 3rd fingers of my right hand resting and sliding on the pick guard.  This works well with crosspicking, since the right hand is referenced.  Then, about 10 years ago, I removed the pick guard and started playing with a free swinging wrist, with the right hand never touching the body of the instrument.  This was like learning to play the mandolin all over again! I finally became comfortable playing fiddle tunes this way, but it has been a major challange to crosspick with an unplanted hand.   I can do it, but not as well as before.  (This may be due to a deterioration of left and right hand dexterity in my advancing years (I'm in my late '70s) as well as the planted vs. unplanted right hand technique.)
Anyway, in reading the frustrations that others have reported in this thread, I can only say that it take motivation and dogged determination to become a crosspicker.  I don't think anybody has mastered this style very quickly, unlike, for example, learning to play fiddle tunes.
Finally, not sure if anyone will be interested, but I have attached a tef file of my crosspicking version of Wildwood Flower.  In the key of C.  Instead of just an ongoing stream of 8th notes, I have tried to add some variety with a few quarter notes and even a brushed C chord.  Note:  I had previously posted a different version of this tune in a different section of the Forum, but there was no response from anyone.
Anyway, for those starting out, keep at it and good luck!
....Rickker

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## Rickker

Hmmmm......it's been several days and no one has risen to the bait.....    Now, don't get me wrong.  I was not expecting anyone to come back with, "Gee Rickker, what a nice crosspicking arrangement of Wildwood Flower..."   But given the number of crosspicking practioners on the Forum, I did not expect the thread to reach a dead end so quickly.  Perhaps many MC members do not use the TablEdit program?  I usually have a quick look at the MC just about every day, but rarely reply to a thread.  Maybe that is the reason.  Anyway, not a big deal either way.

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## Mark Gunter

Don't take it personally, when you stop to think about it, there can't be an army of us just sitting around waiting to jump right in and tackle every TAB that gets posted, and folk are busy around the holidays anyway. You're doing great, thanks for sharing.

I was shamed into opening your TEF. Looks like you put plenty of work into it. You show the pick strokes, and there are some numbers in circles (fingerings?) looks like you've tried to do a thorough job of notating your arrangement, kudos. I listened to the MIDI and can hear Wildwood Flower coming through there. May have some time to try this some day, again, thank you for sharing.  :Mandosmiley:

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## Rickker

> Don't take it personally, when you stop to think about it, there can't be an army of us just sitting around waiting to jump right in and tackle every TAB that gets posted, and folk are busy around the holidays anyway. You're doing great, thanks for sharing.
> 
> I was shamed into opening your TEF. Looks like you put plenty of work into it. You show the pick strokes, and there are some numbers in circles (fingerings?) looks like you've tried to do a thorough job of notating your arrangement, kudos. I listened to the MIDI and can hear Wildwood Flower coming through there. May have some time to try this some day, again, thank you for sharing.


"You show the pick strokes, and there are some numbers in circles (fingerings?)"  - Yes, the numbers within the circles indicate left hand fingering.  What works best for me, anyway.  Yes, I did put some time getting the TablEdit file set up.   I have found that if you don't use this powerful and useful program regularly, you tend to forget how to do things.  Thanks for your comments.

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## Ken Berner

> You got to this before I did, but I don't think it's possible to overestimate how effective this can be if you're playing accompaniment and use this sparingly.  Most of my playing is in a church setting, and on a lot of our songs, doing this on one verse out of 3 or 4 really adds something.  Any more and it would feel like overkill.


Like yourself, I play mandolin in church, and have used cross-picking on rare occasions. We are probably wise in not overdoing it, although it was well-received by a few folks who really do listen. I try to play it softly, however.

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