# Music by Genre > Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants >  No sir. You don't need an F mandolin...

## Mandolin Cafe

... to play the bluegrass music. Travers Chandler. Love his playing and energy.

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Charlieshafer, 

chasray, 

DavidKOS, 

Elliot Luber, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Jess L., 

Mark Wilson, 

RichieK, 

Rush Burkhardt, 

SlowFingers, 

SOMorris, 

Woodrow Wilson

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## AlanN

Long-time A guy, he's the bomb. That's my pal Eddie Gill on the flat-top box.

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## Jeff Mando

Fantastic stuff!

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## Ivan Kelsall

Weird !! - I was playing Bill Monroe's tune ''Rocky Road Blues'' on my Ellis "A" style yesterday - released on Jan. 14th 1946, my 1st birthday. I can't say i sounded quite as good as that,but i'm gettin' there (slooooowly !), :Chicken: 
                                                                                                                      Ivan :Wink:

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## 9lbShellhamer

Nice! I get such joy when I see someone tearing it up with an A on stage. 

This weekend I was in one of the most famous shops in the country taste testing mandos. I was playing an A style from _one_ of the most respected builders in the country, and the shop guy suggested I try out the F style sitting next to it, which also comes out of the same shop. I informed him the A style was actually much more powerful and resonant, and that it beat the F hands down. He was shocked an A could outperform an F, and I didn't bother explaining there's no difference, I did however, play them both and prove the point.  :Mandosmiley: 

I've always been a huge fan of A styles... I must say though, unbiased, that the point on my Gibson is indescribably useful. I find my F is turning into my go-to mando just because of its more ergonomic design while sitting. While standing though... I think I still prefer an A. The main point is that I still love the beauty and efficiency and cost economy of an awesome A style.

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## fentonjames



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fatt-dad, 

GreenMTBoy, 

MediumMando5722

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## Ivan Kelsall

"A" style mandolins seem to me to have an ''underdog' label hangin' around their necks !. Totally undeserved. I think it's all to do with ''what Bill played'' (again!). As i've said before in several threads / posts - Bill Monroe & his Gibson F5 mandolin & Earl Scruggs & his Gibson 'Mastertone' banjo,not only left us a legacy of awesome music,but also one of ''which instruments real Bluegrass mandolin & banjo players should use''. I think it's as simple as that. I'd think that most good mandolin players understand that a good "A" style is (usually) every bit as good as a corresponding "F" style these days - it's simply their choice of which one they play. Several folk on here have said in the past,that if Bill Monroe had played & made famous the "A" style mandolin,we'd all be hankering after that style.

   Like 9lbShellhammer,i really love to see an "A" style featured. Having been the owner of a fine (used) Ellis "A" style now for a tad over 3 years,i know just how fantastic a good "A" style can be - i'd put mine up against _any_ 'top' mandolin on the planet & it wouldn't shame itself. My playing on the other hand................!!!, :Redface: 

   I've recently re-hashed my ''dream mandolin scenario'' & truthfully,it's an Ellis "A" style in Tom's 'Dark-burst' finish. I can't think of anything more glorious - my Ellis "A" style has made _that much_ of an impression on me. If i was several years younger,i'd have one on order right now,
                                                                                          Ivan :Grin: 
Ellis ''Dark-burst''

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DavidKOS

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## UsuallyPickin

Well .... I don't guess anybody really needs a mandolin. Wanting one is another story. F , A , two point , three point, oh yeah! But you do need one or the other to play  'grass. I've decided the real problem with mandolins is that I can't own all of the makers and  models I want.  Yup.

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Bernie Daniel, 

DataNick

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## 9lbShellhamer

My wife was at the shop I mentioned above with me last weekend and the winner of the day for me personally was an Ellis A5. She ventured, unprompted, to say I could pick one up eventually! (Just not this year with another baby on the way.) I must have been good this year.

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## Willie Poole

I`ll admit that I was one that thought to play bluegrass an F-5 was the beast to have, then I heard so many good things about the Loar A-5 and that Kentucky had made a real good copy of it with their KM-900 that I bought one sight unseen and it knocked my socks off...The scroll and shape doesn`t do a thing to add to the tone and an F model is mostly a status symbol thanks to Bill Monroe as Ivan said... I do like the scroll for a strap hanger though...

     Willie

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Bernie Daniel

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## JAK

To me, there is something visually about the design of a "F" that is a "grabber."

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Bernie Daniel, 

DataNick

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## Ivan Kelsall

*JAK* - There's no doubt at all that the 'shape' of an "F" style is truly beautiful. Such an elegant shape really does catch the eye. However,the "A" style design has it's _own beauty_. I've seen some "A" style designs on here that have been almost breath taking,truly gorgeous instruments,none of which,if i owned one, would i trade for an "F" style - i'll take the "F" style_ as well_    please !!.

   I originally set out to own an "F" style & an "A" style,not only an "A" style but one with an oval hole,my Weber "Beartooth". I wanted 2 totally different designs. My "Beartooth" developed a warped neck & i part-ex'd it for my current Lebeda "F" style. I was very fortunate indeed to have been offered my 'used' Ellis "A" style at a good price & i'm glad that after initially refusing it,i had the sense to buy it -it's an incredible mandolin,& for me demonstrates an absolute truth,that a good "A" style is every bit as good as a good "F" style mandolin,
                                Ivan :Wink:

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Bernie Daniel, 

Gary Hedrick, 

John Lloyd, 

Timbofood

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## Timbofood

Once again Ivan, you have made a clear and eloquent point. The Voluptuous sweeping form of the "F" style is beautiful but, the equally delicate form of the Lyon and Healy body shapes are stunning as well. The "A" style is just as lovely but, it's more subtle.
It's Marilyn Monroe v. Rita Hayworth v. Emma Stone. All total knock outs all very different, but, boy they all sure look great!
My "Lotto winning gift to myself" would be a trio of and "F-5, F-4,and an A-5". Oh, and a 
cottage with a nice porch to play them on!
Back to reality and doing laundry!

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DataNick, 

Gary Hedrick, 

Ivan Kelsall, 

Jess L.

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## Jess L.

> ... My "Lotto winning gift to myself" would be a trio of and "F-5, F-4,and an A-5". ...


But... *only three* new mandolins  :Disbelief:  after winning the lottery?  :Wink:   :Laughing:   :Smile:

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## Timbofood

Oh, and a helluva party!

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Jess L.

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## mike mandolin

My Eastman A style has more sustain and volume thany my F style

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## JackCO

I bought my first and only mandolin about 8 years ago (a michael kelly legacy festival) because it was the best sounding and playing F in the shops where I was living at the time (which had a pretty limited selection in my price range). I really wish I had taken that money and put it towards a higher quality A, but that scroll was just too pretty! All in all Im still happy with it (Ive been playing it for 8 years after all), but I know I could have gotten something much better for the money. Now Im about ready to upgrade, and who knows if I would be had I shopped a little smarter.

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## Ivan Kelsall

JackCo - See if you can lay your hands on a Kentucky KM900 "A" style to try out. From what i've heard & read about them,they can be truly sensational. There are a few folk on here who own one & who also own other very high ranking mandolins, & from what they've posted,the KM900's will cut it with the best of 'em !!,
                                                                                  Ivan :Wink:

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## DataNick

The Father Of Bluegrass personally certifies that you don't...

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## Mandoplumb

Yes Bill set the standard for mandolins and Earl for banjo, at least in bluegrass. I've been playing BG for 50 years and until recently an F style was the only carved top, long neck, raised fretboard, F hole  mandolin available, at least to my knowledge.
An A50 or an A3 just didn't work as well for BG, not saying you can't play BG on these just that it lacks "that" sound that an F5 has. The A5's of recent years has changed that. I don't claim to know as much about banjo, but in my experience the same thing can be said of the Gibson Mastertone. I don't recall hearing banjos with " that" sound until a few years ago, and like mandolins there are several choices now. Now before someone gets upset, saying I said these were the only good instruments available in years past that IS NOT what I said. Many good instrument were made in years past. In Gibson mandolins alone I love an oval hole and own an F2 but when I'm playing hardcore BG I reach for my Dearstone, which by the way is an A style.

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## Ivan Kelsall

At one point,going back many years,Gibson banjos were going downhill much as their mandolins were at that time. So much so,that SAGA Music decided to produce the first of the 'Gold Star' range of banjos produced in Japan by the Tokai Guitar Co.. They were terrific banjos. Other makers soon came on the scene,producing banjos that were of exceptional quality - 'Stelling' being just one of them.

   Going back 12 years or so,a music dealer friend of mine imported what i'm sure was the first Chinese built Gold Star banjo in the UK for me. It was simply superb in every way possible. The build quality was first class & tonally,when i played it back to back with 2 banjos made by a 'very' well known maker,it sank 'em both. I did replace the rather less than good tuners & tailpiece & it was 
incredible to play. The bridge wasn't too good either,so, i bought a bog standard 5/8" Grover bridge,thinned it down to the same front to back dimensions as my Stelling bridge & it sounded as good as any banjo i've heard to date (apart from one ).
  I only sold it because mandolin took over & i didn't need 2 banjos,but terrific banjos indeed,
                                                                                                                            Ivan :Wink:

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almeriastrings, 

DataNick, 

Flame Maple

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## Pittsburgh Bill

I'm an A style kind of guy. It looks cleaner, has less protrubances to bang against something and break, but more importantly, more bang for the $$$$.$$

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## Jeff Hildreth

I recall a conversation Gilchrist had with the ,then, importer of his mandolins.  The discussion was about the A vs the F for tone, playability, volume etc.  Gilchrist said without hesitation,  " there is no difference between the two.  The question was then posed why have you all but discontinued the A model ? He responded simply and succinctly, "for the investment of time and materials the F model gives a much higher return". 

I have had but one F style in the approximately 50 mandolins  I have owned. My favorites were two I ordered from Givens, an A-3 and an A-6.  The A-6 was a stunner, the A-3 played, and sounded, better.  I sold them both because the nut width was ridiculously narrow.. like an Eastman.

Lifelong Member of the A Team.

I do like dual pointers.  Among those would be the Phoenix as the top contender.

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## Cary Fagan

I think this is a process that newer players go through often.  They see pros playing an F style and fall for it (and it is a lovely design).  Happened to me when my teacher at the time handed me his Heiden F.  Felt I had to have one and eventually got an F.  Now many years later it matters less to me.  A's are also attractive and being cheaper, less vulnerable to damage and a little smaller makes them appealing for those reasons.  Ultimately it's a personal choice and really doesn't matter.  When you hear someone playing well, you certainly don't care.

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## Ivan Kelsall

From Cary Fagan above - _" Now many years later it matters less to me.."_. Amen to that !. Undoubtedly,an "F" style mandolin is a thing of beauty regarding it's shape,but we don't play the 'shape',that has maybe more to do with _'what Bill played'_ than anything - i know that's the reason i'd personally love to own a really nice Gibson F5 style mandolin - but the 'sound' of my Ellis "A" style is simply incredibly good,& that's by _any_ standard !,
                                                                                     Ivan

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## DavidKOS

> I think it's all to do with ''what Bill played'' (again!). As i've said before in several threads / posts - Bill Monroe & his Gibson F5 mandolin & Earl Scruggs & his Gibson 'Mastertone' banjo,not only left us a legacy of awesome music,but also one of ''which instruments real Bluegrass mandolin & banjo players should use''.]


Just suppose if BM had never stopped using his old bowl back mandolin!

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## mandotool

> Just suppose if BM had never stopped using his old bowl back mandolin!


or his Snakehead..

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DataNick, 

DavidKOS

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## Mike Stewart

Obviously an F is not a requirement, but I do like the ergonomics of a point to keep it on my leg when sitting, and a convenient strap hanger. I just wish such a premium price weren't paid to have a place to put a strap and keep the thing from sliding around. That, and I just want the points and the scroll, I could do without the fancy headstock that's just waiting to have pieces snap off. But a well-made F is purty, so I guess there's that.

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DataNick

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## Northwest Steve

I love the sound of this Ellis. 
http://themusicemporium.com/mandolin...emona-sunburst

Baron from mandolessons.com Ellis sounds great as well.

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Canoedad

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## Ivan Kelsall

Steve - Honestly,i think you'd love the tone of _any_ Ellis mandolin !. Tom's mandolins are up there with the _very best_ being made today,& not just in my opinion. If you ever get the chance to buy an Ellis,especially a 'used' one in good condition,at least try it out if you can,they're pretty spectacular,
                                                       Ivan

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## Northwest Steve

Ivan, I would love to try one (or a Pava) sometime. I have a 2001 Flatiron Festival that is a really wonderful mandolin. It is far more than my playing ability. Unless I found an Ellis priced at mistake it would be above my budget, at least for now. The music budget currently is going for my daughter who plays violin/fiddle and actually has some talent.

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Ivan Kelsall

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## Ivan Kelsall

Hi Steve - I was very fortunate indeed. You might know of TAMCO in the UK,''The Acoustic Music Company'',owned & run by Trevor Moyle. Trevor had my 'used' Ellis "A" style on sale for a while at a price that was a bit more than i could afford. Anyway,totally out of the blue,he offered it to me a a knock down price - he knows that i'm an Ellis fiend. As i already owned 2 mandolins,both "F" styles,i refused it. Having thought about it overnight,& also,with Trevor having mentioned that it would help him out,i did buy it. It was everything that i thought that an Ellis mandolin would be - maybe more !.

   I have a friend who owns a good Flatiron mandolin & it is a terrific instrument - an Ellis might be more 'different' than 'better' (whatever that means),but if you could stretch to a 'Pava' at some point,from what i've read on here,you'd be 95% of the way there,
        Ivan :Wink:

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## soliver

I have tried a Kentucky KM1500, and one or two Eastman F styles, but the only F that I have ever played that I liked was a Gilchrist F5 Jr, and I only got to play it because the guy at my local jam who own's it was a very kind and trusting fellow!.... Just something about the A that I like

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## Cary Fagan

Speaking of A vs F, of course there are also differences in design within each category.  I'm sure many others have noticed that a few builders have been inspired by the Loar A to use a more rounded shape--Heiden and Duff A styles come to mind, as well as Kentucky 900s. The difference seems to be in the slope towards the neck. I've not owned a mandolin with this shape but it really appeals to me, perhaps because it recalls the earlier Gibson As.

Here for example is a wonderful sounding and played Duff A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mSUvd1kDJk

Different in shape from this Gilchrist A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOtJj1Mj2A8

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## Cornelius Morris

> or his Snakehead..


Thomas,
What's the source of that photo?  I've never seen that.  To think that he had a Loar-era snakehead long before he had a Loar-era F5. Amazing.

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## Mike Stewart

> I would love to try one (or a Pava) sometime.


You need to get out more.  :Smile:  If you're actual in the PNW as your nom de plume suggests, and you see a guy pull a Pava F5 out of a green Calton at a local jam, I'll bet if you ask real nice he'll let you play it. Which is probably about the only way to pull that off given that the only way I got to play a Pava was because she and Ellis were at Wintergrass last year. Nobody around here seems to stock them.

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## Northwest Steve

> Hi Steve - I was very fortunate indeed. You might know of TAMCO in the UK,''The Acoustic Music Company'',owned & run by Trevor Moyle. Trevor had my 'used' Ellis "A" style on sale for a while at a price that was a bit more than i could afford. Anyway,totally out of the blue,he offered it to me a a knock down price - he knows that i'm an Ellis fiend. As i already owned 2 mandolins,both "F" styles,i refused it. Having thought about it overnight,& also,with Trevor having mentioned that it would help him out,i did buy it. It was everything that i thought that an Ellis mandolin would be - maybe more !.
> 
>    I have a friend who owns a good Flatiron mandolin & it is a terrific instrument - an Ellis might be more 'different' than 'better' (whatever that means),but if you could stretch to a 'Pava' at some point,from what i've read on here,you'd be 95% of the way there,
>         Ivan


 Nice of you to help out a friend  :Smile:  Unfortunately I have not run into anyone who has a Pava or Ellis at a jam and we do not have a dealer for either anywhere close. Someday....

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## DataNick

> Thomas,
> What's the source of that photo?  I've never seen that.  To think that he had a Loar-era snakehead long before he had a Loar-era F5. Amazing.


The photo comes from a Facebook posting of Bill Monroe's grandson, James William Monroe III. He wanted to ID the mandolin so I started this thread: Bill Monroe's Mandolin When Mr Monroe was 21 years old  consensus is that it's a Loar era Snakehead

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DavidKOS

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## Cornelius Morris

Thanks, DN.  I don't know how I ever missed that thread of yours.

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DataNick

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## doublestoptremolo

Just saw this video for the first time today. Doyle Lawson with an A style with the BGAB:

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## Mando Mort

A or F, it is in the mind and hands of the musician to make it sing.

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## Jim Imhoff

F to A to F again; Not sure how much the internal structure works on this, but my first really good mandolin was an old Gibson A; it was 2 heads and shoulders over the $500 factory Washburn (not the old classic) I was playing. I thought I was set for life, but I came across a Stiver F and it absolutely killed anything in its path. Now I am sure the craftsmanship (I believe Stiver is handmade, 1 at a time) as well as the materials are a much bigger factor than the profile, although I have heard that the hole itself--_"f"_ vs. oval does make a difference. On the other hand--and on the other clef--I have a 1918 K2 Mandocello, oval profile and hole; I had a chance to play the much fancier and more expensive K4 with all the curlies and points. If there was any difference, I could not hear it; the gorgeous K4 out-glamoured and grossly out-priced my K2, but the oval sounds just as good, maybe even better in some ranges. Still, all this might be a matter of specific instruments (rather than A vs F models) and just plain luck. I happen to be very lucky with my Stiver F and my Gibson oval K2.

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## fatt-dad

I think of what Tim played.  Farmerjames shows all I need to know. Tim's the Man!

It was probably '78 when I first saw them in Boulder - straight out of college and working my first job.  Wow!

f-d

p.s., when I first saw Sam Bush (NGR, c. '73, Denver) he was playing an a-model mandolin.

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