# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Finger picking vs. Flat picking, which is right?

## Mandolin-wolf

My dad, who plays guitar (NOT mandolin) says that finger picking is "cheating" on a mandolin, and tells me to learn to use a pick (which I am). So the question is, which is the "right" way?

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## catmandu2

There are compromises with everything, including musical instruments.  Among the compromises of the mandolin are its high-tension short scale which requires a relatively heavy attack to optimize its resonance

If you like fingerstyle playing, you might consider ukulele or charango, for example--on which builds are lighter and fingerstyle playing tends to be more effective

Noticing your other post--mentioning arpeggios and other "challenges" of the mandolin--typically we employ various flatpicking devices and techniques to render effects that rather emulate the sounds we want; playing an instrument presents challenges--and we seek solutions

But of course, there are limitations: a mandolin is a mandolin

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## Mandolin-wolf

True. Of course though, I don't use finger picks, I just use my finger tips. Then again, that's why I use a pick. By the way, how we'll would hybrid picking work?

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## Bertram Henze

There's not a "canonical" problem with fingerstyle on the mandolin, but only a practical one: space. The courses are quite closely spaced (at least with average nut widths) which makes it all a bit small for fingerstyle. For instance, Mike Oldfield, who is a habitual fingerstyle player on electric guitar, uses a pick for his rare excursions on the mandolin.

One (but not the only one) way out of this dilemma is an Octave Mandolin. I do fingerstyle with 3 fingerpicks and a thumbpick on mine for song accompaniment.

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## Mandolin-wolf

That's interesting. I actually got the idea of finger picking on my mandolin after watching my geometry teacher, Mr. Brown, play his banjo in class one day.

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## catmandu2

I would take some exception with Bertram's 

Speaking of banjo--it's interesting to consider why traditions exist and why methods evolve as they do.  I play solo banjo (5-string as well as tenor); with "plectrum"-style banjo playing, we have a problem: the instrument is about half-as-much drum as melodic stringed instrument--it is loud, brash, and unforgiving, seemingly ripe for techniques to "soften" its brash physiognomy and tone.  Yet, traditionally we play using a plectrum--which produces an unforgiving field in trying to make the instrument sound "smooth," fluid and musical-- employing a variety of techniques (arpeggio, tremolo, etc)

The flatpick yields advantages: namely--single note precision, rhythmic punctuation, and volume.  The plectrum banjo's advantages are these--it's an excellent instrument to use when these are primary considerations.  The mandolin shares many of these same attributes

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## P.D. Kirby

> That's interesting. I actually got the idea of finger picking on my mandolin after watching my geometry teacher, Mr. Brown, play his banjo in class one day.


How did he get that Banjo passed the metal detectors?  :Grin:

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## Mandolin-wolf

They don't have metal detectors at my high school.

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## Markus

Every few weeks, in my rock/blues plugged-in group I sometimes will use my fingers to pick/strum so as to provide a much softer attack and overall lower volume while backing up another soloist.

There are songs that call for a light, delicate solo - setting the pick down for backup during the solo part allows me to avoid strong attack of picked mandolin as well as give a different texture/sound. Sets that solo apart - the soloist stays normal volume and everyone else decreases volume [instead of on loud songs when the soloist turns up]. Over the course of three sets every Tuesday for a few years I've tried an awful lot of crazy ideas - if you can find the right context, many of them will work.

Of course, through a pickup that's a whole different animal than when I play acoustically in my bluegrass group. There I would never think of going without a pick [a mic would never hear it without a pick, but even a piezo pickup will `hear' fingers]

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## jmp

Finger picking on a mandolin is not "cheating"  but it is not "normal".  Flat picking is idiomatic for Bluegrass, etc.  Finger picking gives a different sound, and could be "right" if that is what you are going for.  Maybe you will pioneer a new kind of finger-style mandolin playing!

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## catmandu2

True, true...don't mean to be dissuasive.  Just grow those nails out!  : )

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## Marty Jacobson

I think this should answer your question nicely...

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## catmandu2

There's also Mirek Patek--who's done quite a bit of work codifying a fingerstyle approach to 4-string banjo, utilizing "open" tunings and so forth...from whom you might derive some inspiration/resources

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## Mandolin-wolf

> There's also Mirek Patek--who's done quite a bit of work codifying a fingerstyle approach to 4-string banjo, utilizing "open" tunings and so forth...from whom you might derive some inspiration/resources


Who? I've never heard the name before.

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## catmandu2

He's on the internet

I will say that I liked the fingerstyle bossa nova arrangments on TB of a gal--whose name I unfortunately now forget.  I'm guilty of playing a little barefinger bossa on TB too

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## foldedpath

> I think this should answer your question nicely...


FYI, that instrument Radim is playing in that video clip is his Breedlove signature model 4-string mandola. It's a dedicated fingerstyle machine with 4 strings so your fingernails don't get hung up in double courses, and a wider spacing at the nut, and a humbucker pickup at the end of the fretboard to amplify the fairly quiet attack of bare fingers on strings.

That Breedlove is a _terrific_ instrument for fingerstyle playing. I have one... here's a picture of mine on the Emando site. But there isn't much overlap between the way you play it, and trying fingerstyle on a standard double-course mandolin under high tension. I always use a flatpick on my regular 8-string acoustic mandolin. I've experimented with fingerstyle playing on my OM, where the spacing is wider, but my fingernails still get hung up in the double course strings, and it's just too quiet. When I want to play fingerstyle, I pick up the Radim Zenkl model Breedlove mandola. It's just designed for it. It works.

You might want to try experimenting with a 4-string electric mandolin as an alternative to doing this on a standard mandolin, if you don't want to spring for a specialized instrument like that Breedlove.

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## Tom Wright

I always used flatpick plus fingers in my guitar days, and I do the same on mandolin sometimes. But there is a lot you can do with just the flatpick since the strings and courses are usually a bit closer together than on guitar, it feels like to me. For example, I did an arrangement of Leo Kottke's "William Powell", (which he does with fingerpicks), and I only flatpicked it on acoustic 10-string. But for my emulation of "Dear Prudence" I was hybrid picking on the electric 5-string.

I would miss the power of a pick if I played only with fingers, and fingerpicks feel complicated and weird, not to mention not very useful for fast picking. So I think hybrid techniques cover everything, especially if you can employ fingernails for extra bite when needed.

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## JeffD

Most folks us a pick, because it gives you the mandolinny sound most folks associate with the mandolin.

There are of course some exceptions.

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## Dr H

> My dad, who plays guitar (NOT mandolin) says that finger picking is "cheating" on a mandolin, and tells me to learn to use a pick (which I am). So the question is, which is the "right" way?


One of my musicology profs used to say "there are no 'wrong' notes; only choices lying outside the probabilities of the style."  I extend that to playing techniques:  There are no "right" and "wrong" techniques, only _different_ techniques, any of which may or may not be appropriate for what you're trying to do at a given point in time.

Flatpicking is idiomatic to the mandolin, but there's no reason you shouldn't fingerpick if that gets the sound you want for a given piece.  A few examples:

* Fingerpicking is idiomatic for classical guitarists, yet there are certain sounds and effects that are only possible -- or much easier-- to obtain with a pick.  This is such a foreign concept to so many classical guitarists that less tha 20 years ago the music pegagouge Gardner Read refered in his book "Contemporary Instrumental Techniques" to use of a guitar pick as an "extended, avant garde" technique.  He felt compelled to explain in detail (to guitarists, mind you) what a "pick" was, and offered the helpful suggestion that a paperclip would make an acceptable substitute, should the guitarist have difficulty obtaining an actual "pick".

* Fingerpicking is idiomatic to the 5-string banjo, yet when I tried to learn this instrument on my own many years ago, I kept getting my fingers tied in knots.  This was because I learned fingerstyle on the classical guitar, and later steel-string guitar, and was accustomed to using T-1-2-3.  You _can_ do this on banjo, but it does not work well with most of the standard bluegrass rolls, which are played with T-1-2, only.  
Push that a little further:  I've used a flatpick on the 5-string to play tenor banjo parts, when no tenor was available.  Once you account for range, it works just fine.

* Had a lot of trouble learning certain John Fahey tunes, until I discovered that he wasn't using standard guitar fingerpicking technique on them, but was employing banjo T-1-2 style, instead.  Works great on those tunes; on different tunes, not so much.

* If you watch some of the many videos out there of people playing on exotic South American guitar-like and mandolin-like instruments (e.g. charango, which catmandu2 mentioned), you'll note that many of them are using yet another modified fingerstyle, alternating T-1 or T-2 only, throughout a piece (I like this style for some mandolin stuff).

* Flamenco guitarists frequently use the thumbnail as if it were a flatpick (see especially Carlos Montoya).  This works on other guitars, banjo, and mandolin as well.

* Double strings are not necessarily a major drawback:  people fingerpick on 12-string guitar all the time -- not to mention on Columbian tiple, with its triple-strung courses.

* One of my jazz teachers used a hybrid style for jazz on both guitar and mandolin.  He cut the point off a thin thumbpick, and used that to hold a tiny piece of flatpick to his thumb.  While playing he would frequently alternate between using this as a flatpick, or as a thumbpick as he brought other fingers into play.  He generally used thumb and three on guitar (sometimes thumb and all four) and thumb and two on mandolin.

* My classical guitar teachers all told me that the right hand fourth finger was was NOT to be used in playing the guitar; flamenco guitarists use it all the time.  Said classical teachers also told me that the thumb was NEVER to be used on the neck; the jazz teacher cited above said "if it gets the chord played, why not?"  (Indeed, there are chords which are possible only if you use the thumb and all four fingers on the neck.)

And on, and on.  The possibilities are endless.

As catmandu2 points out, there are compromises with everything.  The stiff strings on a mandolin are going to give you reduced volume if you fingerpick -- but you can always amplify.  The doubled strings are going to be hard on your nails -- but you can always use fingerpicks.  Try whatever you're playing both ways, or several different ways.  Stick with the way that sounds and feels good to you; change it if the whim strikes you.

What the heck, it's not like the fate of nations hangs on always doing it in one particular way.  :Smile: 

My $0.02.

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## Jesse Weitzenfeld

Go to 5:41 of this video to see Wayne Henderson playing mandolin with his fingerpicks.  Wayne is not known for his mandolin playing, of course, but it can obviously be done.  Doesn't sound half bad either.  :Smile: 

Edit:  Oops, he's just tuning up at 5:41.  Try 7:12 if you want to hear some playing.

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## catmandu2

Thanks for your very nice, and thorough post DrH

Only one thing I would add: although well-known--Montoya's reputation in the flamenco community is generally regarded as a bit of a _pasticheur_ (they take these things quite seriously on the flamenco fora ; )

Do you play any clawhammer?  I've also been observing comparisons among various fingerstyle techniques.  When I saw the playing technique of ngoni and akonting, I was struck by the similarities among these and "our" various downstroking/frailing styles--on banjo mainly.    Of course all have differences--some subtle; some overt...flamenco guitar is really an interesting form to study--as it utilizes as much of the right hand as possible; there are many techniques to render many effects...including that downstroking forefinger style of these instruments of African origin (albeit, with more variation)

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## Mike Bunting

> Go to 5:41 of this video to see Wayne Henderson playing mandolin with his fingerpicks.  Wayne is not known for his mandolin playing, of course, but it can obviously be done.  Doesn't sound half bad either. 
> 
> Edit:  Oops, he's just tuning up at 5:41.  Try 7:12 if you want to hear some playing.


I looked at the part you pointed out and I didn't see any fingerpicking going on, he was just using a thumb pick to do enough flat picking to try out the new mandolin.

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## Jesse Weitzenfeld

> I looked at the part you pointed out and I didn't see any fingerpicking going on, he was just using a thumb pick to do enough flat picking to try out the new mandolin.


Watch a little closer.  All of his upstrokes are played with the index finger, which is wearing a metal fingerpick.  He plays guitar the same way, basically simulating the DUDU flatpicking sound with a thumb and fingerpick (thumb down, finger up).  He wears a third fingerpick as well, which as far as I can tell he only uses to do banjo-style rolls.

Please excuse the shameless plug, but there's a better view of his right hand in this video of him jamming with my son this past weekend:

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## JeffD

I wonder if, in our zeal to showcase the anomalies, and the creativite approaches to our eight string wonders, that we haven't done the newbies a dis-service.

When someone asks about how to play the instrument, how to hold it, whether to use a pick or not, basic things... that is not the appropraite time to say "there are no wrong answers".  

Of course we know that there are HUGE and wonderful payoffs to looking at the same old mandolin and see something different. But I don't think that message is appropriate at all playing levels.

The newbies are not asking "what can I do differenty on this instrument, to be a real innovator, and distinguish myself perhaps as a pioneer?"  They want to know basic stuff.

They don't want to be stunt drivers, they want to be able to drive to school.

Just a thought over coffee.  Carry on...

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## catmandu2

I agree Jeff

Yet, this topic--perhaps more than most basic technique questions--was ripe for a bit more context





> My dad, who plays guitar (NOT mandolin) says that finger picking is "cheating" on a mandolin, and tells me to learn to use a pick (which I am). So the question is, which is the "right" way?



Many of us here came up through formal systems of study, as well as teach them--and we'll also provide detailed responses to technical inquiries and quandaries, as needed

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## Jesse Weitzenfeld

I guess I read the OP more as a philosophical argument, than a question of technique.  If the question is, which is the better, more accepted method, obviously you can just say flatpicking and be done with it.  But where's the fun in that?  :Popcorn:

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catmandu2

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## JeffD

> I guess I read the OP more as a philosophical argument, :


If you are right then I stand corrected. 

My reading was that the OP is a relative newbie, whose major prior experience with stringed instruments was fingerstyle instruments, and perhaps felt awkward picking up a plectrum, or started finger picking and checked with his Dad "Hey am I doing this right?"

And then we bombard him with all kinds of strictly minority options.

But if you are right than I will sit down.

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## catmandu2

> If you are right then I stand corrected. 
> 
> My reading was that the OP is a relative newbie, whose major prior experience with stringed instruments was fingerstyle instruments, and perhaps felt awkward picking up a plectrum, or started finger picking and checked with his Dad "Hey am I doing this right?"
> 
> And then we bombard him with all kinds of strictly minority options.
> 
> But if you are right than I will sit down.


But, "right" and "wrong" is worthy of a bit of context, isn't it? (*at least, for "dad's" sake?)

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## Richard.g.hampton

I personally couldn't care less if finger-picking on a mandolin constitutes "cheating".........now, if only I could "cheat" like Ry Cooder does when he finger-picks it........

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catmandu2

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## Dr H

> Thanks for your very nice, and thorough post DrH
> 
> Only one thing I would add: although well-known--Montoya's reputation in the flamenco community is generally regarded as a bit of a _pasticheur_ (they take these things quite seriously on the flamenco fora ; )


Yeah, I know.  He kind of fell into a situation similar to that of Ravi Shankar.  Both got accused of compromising their respective musical traditions for commercial gain, yet most Americans would know nothing at all about either of those traditions without their efforts.

Detractors of Montoya need to put their fingers where there mouths are, and demonstrate that they could do better.  I saw him live, in 1978.  I have seen many, many excellent guitarists, in may genres, and I still think Montoya is one of the finest masters of the instrument that ever lived.

Anyway, he's probably got more videos out than the rest put together, so it's easier to find one of him using the technique.





> Do you play any clawhammer?


A little.  On banjo I do it the traditional way -- fingerstyle with brush strokes.  On guitar I developed a way of faking it with a flat pick, that I'm in the process of trying  to transfer to octave mandolin.




> I've also been observing comparisons among various fingerstyle techniques.  When I saw the playing technique of ngoni and akonting, I was struck by the similarities among these and "our" various downstroking/frailing styles--on banjo mainly.    Of course all have differences--some subtle; some overt...flamenco guitar is really an interesting form to study--as it utilizes as much of the right hand as possible; there are many techniques to render many effects...including that downstroking forefinger style of these instruments of African origin (albeit, with more variation)


Yeah, when you start looking at other cultures the range of techniques is so rich as to be mind-boggling.  Flamenco uses some interesing left-hand techniques, as well.  Montoya (and others) were/are so adept with hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, etc., that they could actually play the guitar one-handed, and if you weren't looking at them do it, you might not know.

Years ago I briefly took lessons on the japanese koto.  This is usually played with a thumb pick and two fingerpicks, but various flat picks are also sometimes employed.  In describing the plucking of the instrument's strings, my teacher informed me "there are 839 ways to 'touch' the koto".  He then proceded to put on a demonstration that used at least 40 or 50 of these that I could hear, and probably more that were too subtle for my western ear.  

A whole world (and then some) beyond "do I flat pick or do I finger pick."  :Smile:

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## JeffD

> But, "right" and "wrong" is worthy of a bit of context, isn't it? (*at least, for "dad's" sake?)



When appropriate, sure.

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## JeffD

> A whole world (and then some) beyond "do I flat pick or do I finger pick."



So many choices one might never get started.

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## catmandu2

> "there are 839 ways to 'touch' the koto".  He then proceded to put on a demonstration that used at least 40 or 50 of these that I could hear, and probably more that were too subtle for my western ear.  
> 
> A whole world (and then some) beyond "do I flat pick or do I finger pick."



I do think such information can inspire and be helpful, also, to those who may be reading with perhaps more general interest, or curiosity.  Broad experimentation with technique can provide the most rewarding and creative outcomes...which is why a lengthy discussion can be beneficial--I hope

I hope *mandolin-wolf* reads your post--perhaps particularly for info relevant to the aforementioned inquiry of "hybrid" picking, etc.  More specific information regarding these and other "hybrid fingerstyle" approaches/techniques can be provided by either DrH or myself

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## Dr H

> I wonder if, in our zeal to showcase the anomalies, and the creativite approaches to our eight string wonders, that we haven't done the newbies a dis-service.
> 
> When someone asks about how to play the instrument, how to hold it, whether to use a pick or not, basic things... that is not the appropraite time to say "there are no wrong answers".  
> 
> Of course we know that there are HUGE and wonderful payoffs to looking at the same old mandolin and see something different. But I don't think that message is appropriate at all playing levels.
> 
> The newbies are not asking "what can I do differenty on this instrument, to be a real innovator, and distinguish myself perhaps as a pioneer?"  They want to know basic stuff.
> 
> They don't want to be stunt drivers, they want to be able to drive to school.
> ...


I understand your point, but I disagree.

When I was in music school, composers studied all the available contemporary techniques, and were expected to produce music that was new and different.  The vast majority of performers, however, studied only the old, traditional techinques, which were usually a century or two behind (if not more).  We composers were expected to continually produce performances of our music, but it was extremely difficult to find performers who could play it.  We had to find someone competent enough to play the notes, willing to learn new techniques (few and far between!), and then _teach_ them the techniques, frequently on an instrument that we either didn't play, or didn't play well, ourselves.

Teaching extended techniques to someone who has _only_ been exposed to traditional techniques was, more often than not, an exercise in futility.  Not infrequently performers had been told by their teachers that the techniques we were trying to teach them were "bad technique" (or "wrong" technique), and they had spent most of their lives trying to _un_learn and avoid them.  The end result was many wretched performances, unhappy players, and frustrated composers.

As with most of the composition students I had no good idea of what to do about this, other than complain and comiserate.  Until I attended a lecture, performance, and master class by flutist Robert Dick.  Dick is a specialist in extended techniques and modern music, but he also performs the traditional repetoire, and has trained hundreds of students.  

His analysis of the problem was that most performers spend years or decades learning centuries-old technique, and then a year or so (sometimes only months or weeks) learning extended techniques.  Consequently they are apt to _always_ regard the extended techniques as something "weird", and it's always a wrench for them to shift from traditional playing mode to "modern" playing mode, so they are never comfortable doing this, and consequenly usually don't do it either convincingly or well.

His solution -- practiced with his own students -- was to teach extended techniques along _with_ traditional techniques, not as a separate realm, but as an integral part of a single comprehensive _technique_ for the instrument.  The result was performers who developed a better grasp of overall technique on their instrument, and who freely, comfortably, and fluently moved from -- for example -- traditional baroque ornamentations to contemporary key-pops and lip buzzes without missing a beat or batting an eye.  they were better, more comfortable players of traditional repetoire as well, because they felt more fully in control of their instrument.

For the past several years I have adapted this approach with my guitar students, and have been impressed with the results.  I have brought kids in three or four years to a technical level that took me a decade (or more) to achieve through traditional technique lessons.

So based on personal experience, I don't think we're doing newbies any favors by telling them "this is the _right_ way to do this," and then hitting them a year later with "OK, now here are some of the weird oddball _other_ ways you could have done it."  The best interests of education are never served by witholding information.

This is not to say that we shouldn't make practical suggestions, like "most people play that tune with a flat pick, and if you want to learn it quickly, that might be the best way to go about it."  But it's entirely appropriate, IMO, to let them know at _any_ stage that there are other ways to do it.

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## Dr H

> So many choices one might never get started.


True, but procrastination isn't really a question of techinque, is it?  :Wink: 

If a student asks me point blank how to play a particular passage, often I'll just show them a couple of ways to do it.  But sometimes when a student wants to take on a piece that's maybe a little beyond their current technical ability I'll encourage them to break out a small section and work it out on their own.  Whatever they come up with, we work with that.  Sometimes we hit a dead end, and it's time for a little rote-feeding.  But more often than not, the student does work something out, and both they and I end up learning a great deal in the process.

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## catmandu2

> ...in the process of trying  to transfer to octave mandolin.


I was in the process of converting my flamenco g. (which I no longer play) chops to charango...but now I'm playing pretty much only oud (in the traditional style)

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## JeffD

At the high level of formal schooling, professional performances, where furthering artistic creativity and innovative composition is vital to success, I know what you mean. But the number of folks at that level, who are going to push the envelope artistically, is miniscule, compared with the number who just want to scratch out a simple tune, or partipate in a musical tradition, or just not feel left out when their friends are playing music in the dorm.

I understand the difficulties involved in thinking outside of the box when you have been for years indoctrinated into certain system. But I believe, for most people, lack of structure and direction causes much greater difficulty.

The solution, is to judge what the person is "really" asking, or, (as I like to imagine it), what they would tell you they were going to ask if they suddenly knew everything you know. 

That there is a bigger and more comprehensive answer than what the inquirer is seeking, while always true, is not always relevant, or helpful.

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## Cheryl Watson

Nice video.  Radim is probably playing electric mandolin because you can't typically get much volume out of an acoustic mandolin played fingerstyle.  I've tried, since I play fingerstyle guitar, and it just did not feel right to me also because of the string spacing being relatively tight as opposed to a guitar.  Has anyone ever heard a classical mandolinist play fingerstyle without a plectrum?  I have not, to date.  Is it "wrong" to use slap technique on guitar?  No, but it is unconventional and outside of the box. If a player does it well it is very impressive.




> I think this should answer your question nicely...

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## Dr H

> I understand the difficulties involved in thinking outside of the box when you have been for years indoctrinated into certain system. But I believe, for most people, lack of structure and direction causes much greater difficulty.


I hear what you're saying -- indeed, that argument is continually presented to me by the staunch advocates of "traditional" technique.  I'm not talking about getting people to think "outside the box"; I'm suggesting giving them a bigger box to work with.

Despite my avatar, I am *not* advocating an anarchic approach _sans_ structure or direction.  What I am saying is that it is possible to have a structured system, with plenty of direction, than includes _both_ traditional and contemporary techniques and information.  Robert Dick has been proving for decades that this is both a possible and effective teaching method, and I and others have extended his ideas into the realm of other instruments.

When you stop to think about it, there really aren't very many subjects other than music performance in which we require a tyro to go back to the beginning of history before we begin to teach them what's happening now.  Biology students aren't required to spend years mastering the theory of spontaneous generation before they're taught about evolution.  Physics students don't have to re-invent the wheel and discover all of Newton's theories before they're told about relativity.  A person who wants to cook a souffle doesn't have to start by learning to bake cornbread over a campfire.  Someone who wants to learn to drive isn't required to first master operating a horse and buggy.  




> The solution, is to judge what the person is "really" asking, or, (as I like to imagine it), what they would tell you they were going to ask if they suddenly knew everything you know.


Sure, but that doesn't mean necessarily walloping them with a strict "this is right; this is wrong" to help them along.  

I go back to my jazz guitar teacher:  if they want to play the tune, and what they're doing gets the tune played, then there is no "right" or "wrong" about it.  We might suggest different ways of doing some things; easier ways of doing others.  But none of them are set in stone, so why make the student symbolically put on cement overshoes?

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## Dr H

> I think this should answer your question nicely...


Very nice harmonic solo in there -- which, BTW, he appears to be taking up a pick to play.  :Smile:

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## Josh Kaplan

> Please excuse the shameless plug, but there's a better view of his right hand in this video of him jamming with my son this past weekend:


By the way, Jesse, after watching that video I'd say buy the kid whatever mandolin he wants!

-Josh

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## Mike Bunting

> Nice video.  Radim is probably playing electric mandolin because you can't typically get much volume out of an acoustic mandolin played fingerstyle.  I've tried, since I play fingerstyle guitar, and it just did not feel right to me also because of the string spacing being relatively tight as opposed to a guitar.  Has anyone ever heard a classical mandolinist play fingerstyle without a plectrum?  I have not, to date.  Is it "wrong" to use slap technique on guitar?  No, but it is unconventional and outside of the box. If a player does it well it is very impressive.


Just to be picky, I'd say that he is playing an acoustic mando with a pick up on it. To me people like Tiny Moore played electric mandolins.

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## rico mando

This nylon string mandolin is probably for you http://bernunzio.com/product/gypsy-s...andolin-16431/

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## JeffD

> But none of them are set in stone, so why make the student symbolically put on cement overshoes?


Well we are going to have to respectfully disagree and part as two friends with two minds on the matter.   :Smile: 

If a newbie asks me how to hold the mandolin, and I perceive that what he really wants to know is how to hold the mandolin, then I will tell him how to hold the mandolin. 

I think at the for fun non-professional level, the mandolin is a mine field of bad habits, as is the violin and probably most musical instruments. And getting started right is half of success. I really do believe that people suffer more from entrenched bad habits than have ever suffered from lack of interesting playing innovations. I think most people reach a plateau in their development, not because they have run out of interesting ideas and can't see out of the box, but because they have run to the limit of some bad habit that is now limiting their progress. 

Actually I don't think we are real far apart. I bet your response to an earnest newbies questions would not be far from mine, and each of ours would probably be acceptable enough in the others eyes. I don't want to polarize our positions and forever be in the other corner from you.

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## Dr H

> This nylon string mandolin is probably for you http://bernunzio.com/product/gypsy-s...andolin-16431/


Now that's interesting.  Did they just happen to string it up with nylon, or was it specially designed for nylon strings?

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## Dr H

> Well we are going to have to respectfully disagree and part as two friends with two minds on the matter.


Works for me.




> If a newbie asks me how to hold the mandolin, and I perceive that what he really wants to know is how to hold the mandolin, then I will tell him how to hold the mandolin.


Me too.  Although if in a more whimsical mood I may ask "how to hold it to do _what?_"  :Wink: 




> I think at the for fun non-professional level, the mandolin is a mine field of bad habits, as is the violin and probably most musical instruments. And getting started right is half of success. I really do believe that people suffer more from entrenched bad habits than have ever suffered from lack of interesting playing innovations. I think most people reach a plateau in their development, not because they have run out of interesting ideas and can't see out of the box, but because they have run to the limit of some bad habit that is now limiting their progress.


Agreed about the entrenched bad habits.  I would just add that I think it's a frequently entrenched bad habit to assume that there is only one correct way to do things.




> Actually I don't think we are real far apart. I bet your response to an earnest newbies questions would not be far from mine, and each of ours would probably be acceptable enough in the others eyes. I don't want to polarize our positions and forever be in the other corner from you.


I don't think we're that far apart, either.  I would never tell a student to disregard a teacher, no matter what approach that teacher was using.  I'd just try to make them aware that there are many different approaches, each with their benefits and drawbacks.  My feeling is that if your mind is open, you can learn something from anyone; I learn things from my students all the time.

John Cage expressed my attitude very well when, prior to a concert, a woman asked him where the best seat was in the concert hall.  His reply: "Any seat is an excellent choice, since from each one you will hear something different."

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## mandroid

> My dad, who plays guitar (NOT mandolin) says that finger picking is "cheating" on a mandolin, and tells me to learn to use a pick (which I am). So the question is, which is the "right" way?


 only way to educate your father on how picking with your fingers is not cheating 
is put a classical Guitar Score in front of him and have him play some of Segovia's 
arraigements of like;  Bach classical guitar pieces ,  with a flat pick.

Or at least  sit him in front of the U Tube of some solo Guitar  classical performances.

 that being said Mandolin is predominantly played with a Flat pick , even Bach.

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## Jesse Weitzenfeld

> By the way, Jesse, after watching that video I'd say buy the kid whatever mandolin he wants!
> 
> -Josh


Thanks Josh!  We just got him that guitar so the coffers are a little low at the moment.  We did talk with Wayne about building him a mandolin, but we haven't spec'd it out yet...we'll see where that goes...

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## mquimpy

As a newbie, I've been wondering the answer to the original question as well.  My son is a bass player and has been picking up my mandolin and playing it without a pick. I kept thinking it's wrong to do that, but the fact is he sounds darn good playing it that way!   I appreciate the fact that after reading all the posts, I feel I did receive the answer I was looking for as well as a plethora of information that I can only one day dream of understanding.  (No disrespect intended).  I have hope.  Mixed with a lot of practice I might be able to play one day!  And Jesse -- your son plays very well.

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## Pasha Alden

What an interesting discussion I am finding that when I want a certain kind of rhythm, and perhaps that is because of being such a newbie, 
Finger stile helps very much.  However, I do from time to time play with a pick and for cross picking that is tremendous allowing me the control I seek.  I find strumming with fingers produces a softer sound - almost way more suited to playing to a small audience, say the one in acoustic cafe I will be playing at in two weeks.  However, I would imagine jamming with three or four more louder instruments would absolutely necessitate the use of a pick!  
Happy strummin' and pickin'

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## Flattpicker

One of my students (high school age) came in with a thumbpick today.  We proceeded to investigate fingerstyle possibilities on mandolin.  Also, holding the thumbpick with support from the index finger, like a flatpick (as Tommy Emmanuel, among others, does).  Why not?  It will be interesting to see if he goes anywhere with this.  We even looked at classical and flamenco guitar tremelo techniques.  It should be easier than what Evan Marshall does with a flatpick IMO.

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## catmandu2

With fingerstyle guitar tremolo techniques, you're correct that it (using all the fingers of the right hand) is easier--provided that one has assimilated the fundamental technique--which itself requires much study and practice to deploy effectively.  In this regard, it is far simpler to acquire a flatpicking/plectrum tremolo technique.  Consider this from a physical and ergonomic standpoint: flatpicking essentially entails going up and down (basically, two motions) with a single point of contact/intersection between string(s) and plectrum; while OTOH employing multiple fingers requires an entirely different muscle group (per finger) per "pick stroke."  While this is basic technique to flamenco and classical guitar, it does require much study to develop an even, balanced, fluid deployment of the fingers (guitarists spend much time with simply alternating i-m studies to ensure this evenness); basically, the more fingers we employ--the more variables we introduce and the more complexity is involved.  Among the fingers of a single hand is varying size, shape, strength, coordination, attack perspective, nail shape, etc--no two fingers are exactly alike.  (Compared with, the two sides of a pick)

I'm open to this being disputed by anyone with experience in both (fingerstyle and flatpicking) techniques, although I don't guarantee being persuaded ; )

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## belbein

> That's interesting. I actually got the idea of finger picking on my mandolin after watching my geometry teacher, Mr. Brown, play his banjo in class one day.


Wait.  So your dad harrasses you about the way you play your mandolin, and your geometry teacher tortures you with geometry AND banjo?  Fellow Cafe-niks, I think we need to find Mandolin-wolf and stage and rescue him/her from the evil clutches of the musicians around him/her.  Next they'll force him/her to play [shudder] bagpipes.

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## Bertram Henze

> Fellow Cafe-niks, I think we need to find Mandolin-wolf and stage and rescue him/her from the evil clutches of the musicians around him/her.


Is this kind of Tom Hanks finding Nemo?  :Confused:

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## AlanN

I handed my Gil to a picker one time who asked if he could play it, he was a fingerpicker (with picks - one plastic, 2 metal). I shuddered a bit, but it came back unscathed.

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## belbein

I have a question about this "picks" thing.  Is it like banjo finger-picks?

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## Bertram Henze

> Is it like banjo finger-picks?


Yep. I use these on my OM for song accompaniment.

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## xiledscot

Hey catmandu2............thought you might like this  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX3ou...s8TeAkAe_-Sg9Q

Bertram.........One (but not the only one) way out of this dilemma is an Octave Mandolin. I do fingerstyle with 3 fingerpicks and a thumbpick on mine for song accompaniment.

Your voice sounds almost SCOTTISH !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now that is what I call  Canonical.

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## catmandu2

Very nice.  Interesting to hear the different inflection of p-i picking on tenor banjo--and a vivid example of how much more "efficient" is fingerstyle (albeit, while imparting a different accent)

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## Bertram Henze

> Your voice sounds almost SCOTTISH


It's my age... adds credibility  :Grin: 
Plus, I have a role model to live up to...

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## xiledscot

OK that explains the accent,but who is the guy wearing the spectacles?

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Bertram Henze

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## mandocrucian

> Plus, I have a role model to live up to...

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## Pasha Alden

Hi folks I am reading about finger picks?  and a thumb pick?  Am I understanding correctly, these picks fit over the fingers and are not gripped between index finger and thumb?  Pardon the ignorance, but I would also like to try this, as I find my finger style playing is not entirely achieved by using a pick between index and thumb.

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## Pasha Alden

heavens mandowolf you need rescuing that's for sure

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## Bertram Henze

> Am I understanding correctly, these picks fit over the fingers and are not gripped between index finger and thumb?


Correct. You get an idea from this:



(that's not my hand, but the exact configuration I use for fingerpicking)

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## Mandolin-wolf

> Wait.  So your dad harrasses you about the way you play your mandolin, and your geometry teacher tortures you with geometry AND banjo?  Fellow Cafe-niks, I think we need to find Mandolin-wolf and stage and rescue him/her from the evil clutches of the musicians around him/her.  Next they'll force him/her to play [shudder] bagpipes.


Actually, I like geometry..... And, *why would I ever want to play the f***ing bagpipes?*

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## Mandolin-wolf

Well, I found this (somewhat) interesting article on right-hand technique for the lute, and I've kind of pulled some ideas from that...

Oh, and here's the article:
http://www.luteshop.co.uk/rhtech.htm

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