# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  How do you learn to pick the melody out?

## Chris "Bucket" Thomas

How did you learn to pick the basic song melody. I want to be more of an "ear player" and less dependant on tab. 

I am having trouble on my own.

Any suggustions besides "just do it"? Where do you start? What is your method?

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## rsgars

I'm not sure if this will help, because my first inclination is to say, "Just start." I guess you don't want to hear that, though.

If there is a process, I would say it begins with figuring out what key the song is in. Now, different artists might play the same song in different keys. If I have a recording of the song I play that and search around for notes that sound right. When I feel I'm in the ballpark I start picking out the melody note by note. It helps (a little) that I am a singer (sort of). When I'm stuck I will sing the melody and that helps me to play through it.

I find this much easier than figuring out the chords for a song.

I hope that is some help.

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## Ted Eschliman

Rob has started you down the right path. Finding the key the song is in, as well as the most rudimentary theory will take you a long way. Say you decide it's in the key of G. Knowing where "G" is should be pretty easy, but then knowing the other two pitches (and fingerings) of the G chord, B (3rd) and D (5th) will get you most of the way there.

From there, it's a matter of the "higher or lower" game. Even though you'll have other chords, if you're playing Bluegrass or other folk music, you aren't far way from the G chord, or at least the G "tonality" in that song (or whatever other key you are in.) Fluency in the scale will help you too. That gets you familiar with the sound, the fingering, and the intellectual concept of where you are within the tonality.

I apologize if this is more elementary than you are asking.

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## Walter Newton

If you're interested in learning licks and solos by ear, I find sound editing software (I use a free program called "Audacity") to be a huge help - you can use it to do things like slow the song down (without changing pitch), isolate a small snippet of the tune and loop it endlessly (even one note at a time, if need be), etc.

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## kww

I find that it really doesn't matter much what key it is in to get started, because one of the problems I have in playing along by ear is that I can only detect relative pitch reliably. I try to get the intervals worked out on for one key phrase (like the horn intro in "Ring of Fire", which I am working on now). Once I get one key phrase worked out, I tend to be able work forward and backwards of that phrase and get a decent little snippet of the music (maybe 12-16 measures). From that, you usually can figure out the key (i.e. if you are playing most notes in natural, but every F is sharp, you are probably in the key of G major, etc). Once I have that, I get out the CD and try to match the absolute pitch of that snippet when it goes by. Transpose the snippet to the real key, and then you can work expanding your snippet into the whole song.

If that fails, I call my mother, and she can tell me how the whole song goes after hearing it once.

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## F5G WIZ

Downloaded that Audacity program and messed with it for about 15 min. Can't hardly make heads or tails out of it. Loaded a song into it and it blast through it in about 1/10th of a second. Tried slowing down the rate and it doesn't sound anything like the song I loaded. Any quick suggestions?

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## Walter Newton

Hmm...well it does have a lot of settings and features...but first things first, if you just open a sound file and don't mess with anything at all, just press "Play", it should play the file - does that not happen?

(If you say it plays for just 1/10 of a second you might have a very short segment of the song selected, if you clicked on the main waveform view and moved the mouse just a bit???)

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## JGWoods

Learning to pick songs out-
Listen repeatedly until you always know what the next note you want to hear is.

Keep your instrument tuned to standard pitch all the time- so you are in tune with most music out there. 

Then sit down and try to copycat the song from a recording. 
I don't have any slower downer stuff, well I do, but I don't like how it sounds. I have a footpedal hooked up so I can pause the recording by tapping my foot. I let a phrase or two go by and find a few of the notes, then pause and flesh it out. Review to see if I got it right and go onward phrase by phrase. I can get most songs down once or twice in 10-20 minutes. 

Smoothing them out and making them stick in my memory may take another week or two of playing during practice times.

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## John Flynn

There is a good DVD I have called "Understanding the Formula of Music" by Dan Huckabee. It teaches basic theory and ear training. It is a good start in recognizing intervals, which is how you figure out tunes. If you buy it, it is good to have a some kind of a musical keyboard to go through it, even if it is a cheap kid's digital keyboard. It is for any instrument, but he has you go through some useful exercises on a keyboard. He also has a DVD called, "How to Figure Out Music from Recordings," which I don't have yet, but will soon. It is more on point, but my guess is it would work better if you had the first DVD down pat. #

A couple other hints: First try picking out tunes you really know well, like "Three Blind Mice," etc. It gets your "ear learning circuits" going for more difficult stuff. Also, learn to sing the tunes you want to learn, even if it is just in nonsense sylables, like "Da-da-da" etc. An old saying is that "if you can sing it, you can learn to play it." The saying is pretty much true.

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## cpelz

Regarding Audacity, provided you're not playing a 1/10 of a second song, the program may not have the proper codec to play the format. I'm having a similar problem with the .flac format though .mp3s play fine.

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## mandohubris

I just started working through a 2-CD set by Brad Davis, called Ear-Training for Mandolin (I think)...Anyway, I don't know if it will work yet, but I like his approach. 1st, you hum the lick until its memorized (not worrying about the key yet) and then find it on the Mandolin. Then you can transpose it to whatever key.

The 1st CD goes through several short licks in different keys. The 2nd CD has longer, more difficult licks and includes things like double stops.

If you are interested, Mel Bay publishes it.

For some reason though, the ear training method didn't come with any sheet music

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## John Flynn

I have the Brad Davis "Ear Training..." set. Basicially all it is him drilling you through learning to sing one mandolin lick after another, so that you can (hopefully) translate those licks to the instrument later. But he isn't so clear about how the "translation" part happens. I found it very tedious. I made it through the first CD, but I'm still not sure if I got anything useful from it. I just couldn't bring myself to tackle the second!

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## Tighthead

I do what some of the others have mentioned: I figure out what key the song is first, then that gives me a scale to work with. I try to find the notes just by picking one--was that note higher or lower than the one I'm hearing in the song? I just work my way through, jotting down the song as I go.

I'm pretty new, so I have trouble figuring out the keys sometimes. I have even used my Korg CA-30 to see if it picks up the first note of the song, or failing that I try to pick up the key from the singer. I know it's not perfect, but I've started with some pretty clear melodies and that method gives me a start. 

Then, when I have a melody at least partially picked out, I sit down with my instructor and work through any tough parts--another good reason to be taking lessons!

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## mandocrucian

*Just hum the damn tune!* Play the CD over and #over until you can hum or sung it. #It's not really *in your head* unless you can manage to do that. #

Then, find the notes on the instrument and plunk out the tune. #

Playing music is not just _what is in your fingers!_ It's also what is in your head/ear. _"Playing"_ is just _"singing on an instrument"_. 

Niles H

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## Avi Ziv

Right on Niles! 

Except that I don't talk as loudly as you  :Wink: 

That's how I do it for all the Irish Trad music that I play. Yes - I can read standard notation very well, but there is nothing as good (for me) as total immersion in the tune until I can sing it (and I do - in the car all the time). The distance from my head to the fretboard is shorter and of higher quality than the "distance" from the eyes/sheet to the fretboard, if that makes any sense.

Avi

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## 250sc

Everyone is saying basicly the same thing, though Miles is saying it louder ;-). 

You have to have it in your head before it will come out of your instrument. The good news is that once it's in your head you should be able to find it on any instrument with a little time.

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## F5G WIZ

NO it's like playing the whole song in 1/10th of a sec. Just a burst of sound.

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## gnelson651

Here is how I pick out a melody for a song I don't know being played in a BG jam.

As I chop along, I listen to the singer and get the song in my head (already suggested and its right on).

(Since I know what key I'm in...) I use the pentatonic scales to flesh out the melody. If its in the key of G, I use the G pentatonic throughout the whole song without worrying about chord changes within the song. (Since your reading "Mandolin Master Class" you have Laird's pentatonic box-it works because I use it all the time)

Once I find most or all of the melody, I fill in with all the scale notes and arpeggios (that fit) #and try to add licks (this is the hard part for me) to get the melody down. When its my turn for a break, I hear the song in my head and play along as best as I can. If I hit a klinker, I'll try a save by sliding up a fret to cover my tracks. For parts of the meldody I can't quite find, I just play pentatonic scales around it.

Now if I'm sitting at home listening to a CD (or the music in my head) and I don't know the key, I'll just play around on the fretboard in open position until I hear I'm playing the right notes. Then I can figure out the key based on the scale I'm playing...and do the same thing as in a jam session (see above).

Don't get too bogged down on learning to play something perfectly, note for note. Just flesh out the basic melody and then work on it at home composing a facsmile of what you heard. Music is an aural thing and the reason you hear different variations of the same tune is that someone heard it and interperted as their own.

Have fun with it and it will come.

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## Shana Aisenberg

If you can't pick out fiddle tunes (or Charlie Parker bebop licks) by ear, start with really simple melodies. She'll be Coming Round the Mountain, Clementine, Oh Susannah, This Land is Your Land, etc. One tune at a time. The more familiar tunes you pick out the easier it'll get to try tunes that you don't already know. And, to repeat what Niles said. Sing them! If you can sing it, you'll be able to play it.

Seth

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## Dan Margolis

> "If you can't pick out fiddle tunes (or Charlie Parker bebop licks) by ear, start with really simple melodies."


Yes. No tune is too simple if you cannot play it. Dan

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## rsgars

> NO it's like playing the whole song in 1/10th of a sec. #Just a burst of sound.


I think you are running into copy protection here. Or, the song is in a format (or uses a codec) that your software doesn't recognize. Start by checking the format of the song you are trying to play.

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## Bob DeVellis

If you're not a singer, being told to "just hum the damn tune" is like being told to "just play the damn tune." The point is, you're likely to hum it incorrectly. The essence of some tunes is that they defy expectation in certain places, have passing tones not in the key, etc. If you "wing it," you may miss those details and the tune can sound wrong. I know this isn't a problem for some people and the advice to sing or hum the tune will work for many, especially those who were brought up singing. But for the rest of us, it's like telling someone who forgot their camera to just sketch the image in front of them -- not necessarily easy. 

When I get a tune in my head (which I agree is an important first step), it's usually not a note-for-note "recording" of the original with every grace note and accent incorporated. It's the basic outline of the tune. Although it helps, it's often not a reliable basis for finding all of the correct notes.

I find that slowing down the tune, finding "landmark" notes first, and making a written record of the notes as I find them are critical for me. First, slowing down the tune helps you to hear what happened, in greater detail, between point A and point B. Did that sequence just ascend from A to B, or was there a lower note in there as part of that ascending sequence? Second, finding "landmark" notes early on, that is, notes that are easy to identify and important to the shape of the melody, is also useful. This is especially true if you hear intervals rather than pitches. If one note goes astray, you may have different parts of the tune internally correct but each part a half-step off from the others (for example), because you misheard a C as a C# somewhere. If you establish landmarks, you know if something isn't right when the notes leading up to that landmark don't "land" on it, so to speak. Third, unless your auditory memeory is really good, you need to preserve the identity of the notes as you identify them, either in tab, notation, playing them into a tape recorder and naming the string and fret, or some other means. Otherwise, you'll forget an earlier section as you figure out a later one.

Finally, although it can be a good challenge to figure out a tune note-for-note, if you have a good overall sense of the tune's feel (that early, getting-it-into-your-head stuff), you may find ways of accomplishing the same musical goals that are different from the recorded source. You may chart a slightly different but equally successful path from point A to point B somewhere in the melody. If those variations work for you, it may not be necessary to perfectly re-create the original note sequence. It may not even be desirable. 

Just one man's thoughts.

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## kww

I've got to agree with Bobd on this. Relying on my singing is a good way to make sure I get the song wrong.

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## mandocrucian

> How did you learn to pick the *basic song melody*.


We not talking Coltrane solos. He's not even talking embellished fiddle tunes, but the *basic song melody*. 




> But for the rest of us, it's like telling someone who forgot their camera to just sketch the image in front of them -- not necessarily easy. #


That's the problem - everybody wants the so-called "easy shortcut". I'm sorry, but if you want to get in shape, you've got to do your pushups. #crunches etc. #Nobody else can do them for you, or graduate you from the 2nd to 3rd grade just for attendance.

A teacher can only show you a doorway - it's on you whether you walk through it or not. 

It doesn't make any difference to me if you don't want to work through it to be able to _mentally lock_ onto pitch by translating it into (correct) audible vocal sound. If you think it's too much trouble, too hard, or just too goofy, I'm sure Steve K. will be more than happy to keep offering you tabbed out arrangements (for $$$) indefinitely.

Niles H.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>_"(well) I know, I know, you'll probably scream and cry That your little world won't let you go.....
......So-uh, are you experienced?" #("Are You Experienced?"_* - Jimi Hendrix Experience*)</span>

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## Scotti Adams

..my dad taught me early on...if you can hum it or whistle a melody it should come out through your fingers....fortanantly for me Ive been able to do that...I realize it doesnt come as easy for others. I know you have to learn your fingerboard...you have to know what notes are where. When I was in junior high I got the bright idea I was going to take violin lessons...well I could never master the art of reading music..still cant. The teacher would sit us in a semi circle...with two other players on both sides of me. Try as I may I could never read or get a grip on reading music. BUT...by the time the two players on either side of me would read and play their passage I could play it by ear...this sort of threw the teacher for a loop...he would constantly hound me about reading the notes. This went on for a few weeks...he ended up thinking I was actually learing to read. Well about 6 weeks of this I had the teacher buffaloed to say the least....well it came time for my passage to be played...he would play along on the piano...I should point out he was an excellent player...an old black man..who would have Lipton cup of soup handy and his packs of smokes. Could play a mean jazz violin. Any way....as I was playing this passage..a big grin came upon his face...he walked towards me...as I finished he gave me a compliment of how proud he was of me...until he looked down at my instruction book on my music stand....I had placed it upside down on purpose to prove a point..I could play just as well or #better than my classmates by ear...well...that was my last day in his class...he kicked me out. I guess he enjoyed all he could stand of me.

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## Avi Ziv

> If you're not a singer, being told to "just hum the damn tune" is like being told to "just play the damn tune." #


If we leave out the words "just" (implies simplicity) and "damn" (implied impatience), then we are left with a calm suggestion of "hum the tune". 

I am not belittling the challenge of doing it, but I do think that it's very important (maybe even before you play an instrument) to be able to hear a pitch and repeat it vocally. You don't have to be a singer to do that. That's basic ear training. I do this with my kids all the time. I play a note on the piano and they repeat it. 

Of course memorizing a large orchestral piece is not something we all do in our musical experience but we are talking about relatively short tunes here. 

Many people use a slow-down machine/software to find the notes and that can work for some things. Finding some written (sheet music) sources to compare and cross-check yourself is good too. All these things takes certain skills. I can understand the confusion of someone who is starting out but I can also understand the sentiment behind Nile's comments - meaning that shortcuts are typically not scalable.

Just as a side comment about slow-downers. I like the technology but I also feel that often the same tune would be played differently if it was, in fact, that slow. What I mean is that certain ornaments (and technique) work better at different tempos. If possible, I would rather find a recording of a tune that was played slower and learn from that. Yes -there are cases when I want to really see what notes were in that "furious blaze" and slowing it down is a good method for transcribing.


Avi

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## gnelson651

> If you're not a singer, being told to "just hum the damn tune" is like being told to "just play the damn tune." #The point is, you're likely to hum it incorrectly. #The essence of some tunes is that they defy expectation in certain places, have passing tones not in the key, etc. #If you "wing it," you may miss those details and the tune can sound wrong. #I know this isn't a problem for some people and the advice to sing or hum the tune will work for many, especially those who were brought up singing. #But for the rest of us, it's like telling someone who forgot their camera to just sketch the image in front of them -- not necessarily easy. #



If you can't sing or at least hum a tune, then you are in a world of hurt when it comes to playing music.

While I can't sing worth a dang out loud (When people ask me if I "sing" I reply that I don't even sing in church, I just mouth the words. If I ever sung out loud, God would cover His ears). But I can hear and play the music in my head or hum it or whistle it.

Also slowdowner software is a limited tool and I try to stay away #from it. If you're in a live situation, like a jam session, you can't ask the group to slow it down so you can figure out the song. Also improvisation is "winging it" and leads to inventing new variations of a song. A song is not written in stone where you have to play it exactly as the musician. I remember a few years back when a lady on Comando asked for tab to "Happy Birthday." Now this is a seven note song, we've all sung it many times starting at a very young age. If you can't aleast figure out "Happy Birthday" on the mandolin, then your musical vocation will be limited to reading notes/symbols on a page. Forget about going to a jam or playing with other people, you'll be stuck at home playing alone (which is alright if that's what you want).

The point is that anyone who wants to play music should have atleast a basic fundamental skill of whistling, humming or singing a tune. If you can't do that, maybe you should take up knitting.

I sense that the original poster is trying too hard to find the exact notes to a song on a CD. Music is a fluid medium and everyone doesn't play the same song exactly. That's why we like to listen to other artist to hear their interpretion of a song. Advance player go to great lengths to find variations to songs,that's what makes it so interesting.

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## Bob DeVellis

I guess I don't consider it a shortcut to simplify the learning process. In fact, a fundamental tenet of good educational practice is starting where the learner's current ability level is. For many, the singing/humming suggestions does exactly that and, in those cases it's good advice. Where a method poses an obstacle rather than an aid, considering other approaches seems eminently sensible. In fact, where shortcuts work, they seem eminently sensible, too. The notion that the "bitter pill" works best is testable and, to my knowledge, hasn't yet been firmly established. In the past, everyone was forced toward right-hand dominance because the right hand was considered inherently more capable (Latin "dexter") and the left, less trustworthy (Latin "sinister"). I guess all I'm saying is that different things work best for different people.

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## Ken Sager

I love this thread. 

The ability to play a tune is directly tied to the ability to hum a tune, and, as Niles has pointed out here and elsewhere, the music is the same regardless of the instrument (voice or mandolin). That said, the first step in repeating a phrase is LISTENING to it. Then you internalize it. Then you repeat it (either vocally or through an instrument).

Where a method poses an obstacle, as Bob points out, the obstacle should be identified and worked out. What obstacle is there to humming a melody once heard? Is it the ear? or the musical understanding of what the ear is hearing?

If a student of mine can't hear a melody, or rhythm, well enough to hum it or clap their hands to the rhythm we break it down and listen for the most basic cue. I don't even try to have them play it because they can't. Find the root, find the one beat, find the most repeated bass note, find something basic and concrete then build from there. Do it vocally and WITH the instrument at the same time. Make the connection between the two immediately.

That's my advice. Sing and play at the same time. If you can't hear yourself singing in pitch with what you're playing then you may have other obstacles to deal with first.

Big love to all,
Ken

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## dough-re-mi

Regarding tab for "Happy Birthday":

I found it originally very helpful to have the sheet music of Happy Birthday, Three Blind MIce and some other trivial tunes, because even though I may have sort-of sung them in the past, I didn't really know them. Three Blind Mice starts as a descending "mi-re-do", but at one time I didn't really know that, I couldn't hear it in my mind well enough, and I had no recordings. 

Also, I would second the suggestion of matching pitches. I do that with, say, the sound of my electric toothbrush or the fan on my air purifier, and it has helped me hear a lot. Once I match the pitch, singing a tetrachord up or down from that point is helpful too.

I can't imagine growing up with a parent that would play a pitch and ask me to match it; the parent who says he does that has very fortunate children..

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## mandocrucian

> I remember a few years back when a lady on Comando asked for tab to "Happy Birthday."


Yeah, I can't forget that one. I posted in at the tail end of it all when the topic had shifted more to "learning by ear" and I said _"If there was ever a tune made for picking it out by ear, it's 'Happy Birthday'."_. And for that comment, received a half-dozen off-list flames, including an ultra-nasty one from the original woman poster, and I wasn't even responding to the original question. And that was the last straw as far as Comando, for me. I doubt if I've posted more than once a month (if even that) since then.#Teaching for over 20 years and have to take a reaming-out by some bozette newbie too lazy to figure out "Happy Birthday" on her own? I don't think so.

Bitter Pill? #What is so "bitter" about "washing the dishes?" (OK, buy paper plates and plastic forks - forever). Or "mowing the lawn?" Or wiping your....? You know, at some level... you might complain: "Playing upstrokes is too hard; I don't think I'll learn it." #Or, "This pinky is pure torture." #"My fingertips are sore." #
(Al Bundy: _"Aw Peg.....not now!"_)  

There's a whole school of thought that _"Obstacles are your friends."_#meaning that they instigate growth and improvement.

As far as humming/singing the tune - if you can do that, it's in your ear and mind. #It is as low tech as you can ever get. You don't need your computer and software. You don't need your instrument in hand. Mind/ear &gt; voice is *as direct* a path as you can get. #You aren't doing it necessarily to become "a singer", but to get a handle on pitch and pitch memory. It's not unusual for a student to "sing" a major scale but in reality mumble in monotone. Maybe they _are_ hearing the notes mentally - and - maybe they _aren't._ But if they can/sing/hum/whistle the sequence, there is *no doubt* that their ear/mind is hearing it, and, generating the sound. The vocal *forces* one into focusing on "hearing it".

So, the student can't do it on the first try. Or even the second or third. #So what? #That doesn't stop a _baby_ from figuring out how to walk (on his/her own with that infant brain!). Maybe it takes 10 minutes, or 20 minutes. (What an eternity!)#The next time gets easier and takes less. #It's #a lot easier to do that than learn to contort and control your fingers into pressing down on strings at the appropriate spots on a stick of wood. 

And the ear&gt;hand connection......._sing and play it at the same time._ If the two aren't in synch, either your hands or off, or you didn't (mentally) hear what you thought were going to. #Burn in the neural associations between hearing the notes and the appropriate finger movements. It's not rocket science, just plain old Pavlovian behaviorism!: The dinner bell rings and the doggies slobber. Every time.

(I see from hitting the preview button, that Ken has just said the same thing.) 

Niles H 
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(a.k.a. Sideshow Bob, a.k.a. Inspector Dreyfus)


Devil: _"Your room is right here, Maestro!"_ (ushering him into a room full of banjo players) - Famous (and TRUE) *Far Side* cartoon</span>

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## Avi Ziv

> I can't imagine growing up with a parent that would play a pitch and ask me to match it; the parent who says he does that has very fortunate children..


Was this really necessary?...

We love playing with our instruments and have fun with such and many other musical games. If I sounded at all like I am imposing some musical military academy in my house, then I misrepresented myself

Avi

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## Bob DeVellis

For me, the obstacle isn't hearing the note correctly, it's reproducing it correctly vocally. And I do hum tunes in my head or aloud. But as a standard against which to compare and reproduce the note on an instrument, I find that my humming or singing isn't a reliable reproduction medium. (For one thing, a mandolin is a soprano instrument, and my voice isn't in that range.) I know this is hard to imagine for people who regularly sing but, in my experience, I'm not unique in having difficulty vocally reproducing notes I hear with a high degree of accuracy. I think my hearing acuity is pretty accurate because I can quite quickly tell when, for example, an instrument is out of tune and I seem to be more fussy about that than a lot of people. Validating those perceptions against a reliable standard indicates that my hearing accuracy is pretty good. I'm confident that if I practiced, I could learn in-tune humming to near perfection but I'm not persuaded that the time would be well spent, not to mention I'd probably be looking for a divorce lawyer in short order. But again, I recognize the merit that approach has for others.

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## Bob DeVellis

Niles, you have strong convictions, and I respect that. I don't necessarily agree with you but your opinions are always interesting and very much "from the heart."

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## Soupy1957

I thought that's what "Tablature" was for........it's the melody, hidden by a bunch of filler notes.
  -Soupy1957

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## Ken Sager

Well said, Niles.

No, Avi, start children singing and playing music when they're young. Make it part of their language in the home. It's a beautiful gift to make music, and more beautiful to share it by teaching. Developing an ear is the first step, and often appears to be harder to learn later in life than earlier. I think the comment made about this was genuine. Kids whose parents play music with them are indeed fortunate. Kids whose parents make it fun are more so.

Love to all,
Ken

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## dough-re-mi

Avi

I was saying exactly the opposite of what I think you understood; it would have been incredible to grow up with parents who played musical games.

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## Avi Ziv

> Avi
> 
> I was saying exactly the opposite of what I think you understood; it would have been incredible to grow up with parents who played musical games.


peace 
Avi

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## Tom Smart

Niles and Ken, who are both professional music teachers, are giving you folks a free lesson here.

Instead of throwing up your hands and saying you just can't do it, it might be more productive to take it as a homework assignment. Devote some time to trying it out for a week. Then come back to this thread and report on your progress. Or if you still can't do it, report on the insights you gained on WHY you can't do it.

If you were spending money for this lesson, you'd either happily do your homework, or you'd come back next week knowing that you had wasted your money from last week. Or, you'd fire the teacher--but since this is a free lesson, you don't have that option.

Niles--I really admire the way you say what needs to be said, without any sugar coating. Keep it up.

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## Soupy1957

I asked a guy how much he wanted for teaching the Mandolin and he said "fifty dollars a session" (which for you math wiz's is $200 a month), and I just can't afford that kinda expense myself......
  -Soupy1957

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## Scotti Adams

> I asked a guy how much he wanted for teaching the Mandolin and he said "fifty dollars a session" (which for you math wiz's is $200 a month), and I just can't afford that kinda expense myself......
>  # -Soupy1957


yea..man has to eat once in awhile.

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## AlanN

Like anything else, practices makes (or helps to make) perfect. It's hard to recall when I *couldn't* hear/do something, but I've been at it long enough to hear the key a tune is in after a listen or two, based on the timbre of open/fretted strings. To pick on one style, grass tunes are played in only a few keys - G, A, B, C, D, E, F. The particular ring or sound of the mandolin work, and the guitar runs, banjo licks, is a dead give-away to the key, IMO.

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## DSDarr

> That's my advice. Sing and play at the same time. If you can't hear yourself singing in pitch with what you're playing then you may have other obstacles to deal with first.


I, like others in this thread, can not and do not sing. I am also a slow ear learner and they are undoubtedly related. I am not tone-deaf and I can tell when I am singing off-pitch (most notes actually). It is, however, more difficult and far more frustrating for me to attempt to sing the correct note than it is to find that note on the mandolin. I heard the melodies in my head just fine and I am getting better at finding them on the instrument. The intermediate step of singing them (or even humming them) just doesn't work for me.

David

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## kyblue

Soupy1957,

I hope that price didn't discourage you from asking anyone else. I"m not saying that whoever it was wasn't worth that, but I do know there are very good teachers that don't charge that. I can't imagine having a better teacher than the one I have, and I don't pay $200 a month. 

I also only go 45 minutes per week, which is still a good bit of time, but brings the price down a bit.

And, I have a full time instructor, but even he allows himself 8 weeks a year off for vacations/gigs/workshops, which also factors into the monthly pricing structure (hook up with a road musician, and you'll pay very little, because you'll rarely get a lesson! Been there, done that...) 

Paula

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## DSDarr

> For me, the obstacle isn't hearing the note correctly, it's reproducing it correctly vocally. And I do hum tunes in my head or aloud. But as a standard against which to compare and reproduce the note on an instrument, I find that my humming or singing isn't a reliable reproduction medium. (For one thing, a mandolin is a soprano instrument, and my voice isn't in that range.) I know this is hard to imagine for people who regularly sing but, in my experience, I'm not unique in having difficulty vocally reproducing notes I hear with a high degree of accuracy. I think my hearing acuity is pretty accurate because I can quite quickly tell when, for example, an instrument is out of tune and I seem to be more fussy about that than a lot of people. Validating those perceptions against a reliable standard indicates that my hearing accuracy is pretty good. I'm confident that if I practiced, I could learn in-tune humming to near perfection but I'm not persuaded that the time would be well spent, not to mention I'd probably be looking for a divorce lawyer in short order. But again, I recognize the merit that approach has for others.


Bob, 

Your experience is very close to mine. I am hear tonal differences quite well. I am very fussy about tuning and I can tell when people play and/or sing off-pitch, out of key, etc. I just can't get the correct note to come out of my mouth. Humming is easier than singing but both are very frustrating. I have no range either. It is easier for me (though as I mentioned in my previous post, not very easy unfortunately) to go straight from ear to instrument.

David

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## arbarnhart

> Originally Posted by  (bobd @ Sep. 22 2006, 13:02)
> 
> For me, the obstacle isn't hearing the note correctly, it's reproducing it correctly vocally. #And I do hum tunes in my head or aloud. #But as a standard against which to compare and reproduce the note on an instrument, I find that my humming or singing isn't a reliable reproduction medium. #(For one thing, a mandolin is a soprano instrument, and my voice isn't in that range.) #I know this is hard to imagine for people who regularly sing but, in my experience, I'm not unique in having difficulty vocally reproducing notes I hear with a high degree of accuracy. #I think my hearing acuity is pretty accurate because I can quite quickly tell when, for example, an instrument is out of tune and I seem to be more fussy about that than a lot of people. #Validating those perceptions against a reliable standard indicates that my hearing accuracy is pretty good. #I'm confident that if I practiced, I could learn in-tune humming to near perfection but I'm not persuaded that the time would be well spent, not to mention I'd probably be looking for a divorce lawyer in short order. #But again, I recognize the merit that approach has for others.
> 
> 
> Bob, 
> 
> Your experience is very close to mine. I am hear tonal differences quite well. I am very fussy about tuning and I can tell when people play and/or sing off-pitch, out of key, etc. I just can't get the correct note to come out of my mouth. Humming is easier than singing but both are very frustrating. I have no range either. It is easier for me (though as I mentioned in my previous post, not very easy unfortunately) to go straight from ear to instrument.
> 
> David


We could form a trio, but who would sing?   

I have gotten a little better trying the oft mentioned Mandolin Ear Training CDs and sometimes I will sing a little in choruses. I really want to learn to sing the blues, but most attempts just inspire playing the blues...

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## Scotti Adams

Im with ya Alan..

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## Tom Smart

There is a small percentage of people in the world who truly can't carry a tune in a bucket.

If one of those people were to tell me that they can "hear the tune correctly in their head; they just can't sing it," and if there wasn't anything physically wrong with their vocal cords, I would be extremely skeptical that they really are hearing the tune correctly in their head.

We're not talking about singing "well," we're just talking about getting the intervals close enough so that someone else could at least recognize it as a perfectly awful rendition of "Happy Birthday." In other words, good enough to demonstrate that you do indeed know how the tune goes.

Being able to tell whether an instrument is in tune or not is a completely different skill than being able to recognize and reproduce intervals.

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## arbarnhart

> We're not talking about singing "well," we're just talking about getting the intervals close enough so that someone else could at least recognize it as a perfectly awful rendition of "Happy Birthday." In other words, good enough to demonstrate that you do indeed know how the tune goes.


That would be me. One thing that did come across in the ear training CDs was that the idea of doing the "hums" using things like "da do da de de de dum dum" is a ton easier for me to do than actual words.

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## Shana Aisenberg

Even folks who profess that they "can't carry a tune in a bucket" can learn to sing. One has to start at the beginning, slowly learning to sing one interval at a time. 

Seth

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## Shana Aisenberg

[QUOTE]I asked a guy how much he wanted for teaching the Mandolin and he said "fifty dollars a session" (which for you math wiz's is $200 a month), and I just can't afford that kinda expense myself......

I charge $45 per hour for music lessons, this seems to be right along the lines of what other professionals (such as carpenter, electrician or plumber) charge for their time. I also accept students who wish to take lessons less frequently, every other week, once a month, etc. Perhaps this is an option...

Seth

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## DSDarr

> There is a small percentage of people in the world who truly can't carry a tune in a bucket.
> 
> If one of those people were to tell me that they can "hear the tune correctly in their head; they just can't sing it," and if there wasn't anything physically wrong with their vocal cords, I would be extremely skeptical that they really are hearing the tune correctly in their head.
> 
> We're not talking about singing "well," we're just talking about getting the intervals close enough so that someone else could at least recognize it as a perfectly awful rendition of "Happy Birthday." In other words, good enough to demonstrate that you do indeed know how the tune goes.
> 
> Being able to tell whether an instrument is in tune or not is a completely different skill than being able to recognize and reproduce intervals.


Let's put it this way -- I can pick out Happy Birthday and similar tunes with no real problem on a mandolin. I can figure out fiddle tunes (in a basic unornamented way) on a mandolin as well, albeit it much slower than Happy Birthday, Oh Suzanna, etc. I can't sing any of them. And trying to use singing to aid my ear -&gt; instrument connection seems like a waste of time because it adds an additional layer of complexity that just slows down the process. For what's it worth I can (and have) picked out tunes like Happy Birthday, Oh Suzanna, up and down the neck and can (for the most part) play them in any key I want to... with a minimal amount of trial and error.

David

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## DSDarr

> Even folks who profess that they "can't carry a tune in a bucket" can learn to sing. One has to start at the beginning, slowly learning to sing one interval at a time.


The question for me then is the time involved -- is it worthwhile for me to learn to sing? I don't really want to sing at this point in life (just shy of 50 years old). I've always been told that I can not. I just want to improve my ability to pick up tunes on the mandolin by ear.

David

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## rsgars

> The question for me then is the time involved -- is it worthwhile for me to learn to sing? I don't really want to sing at this point in life (just shy of 50 years old). I've always been told that I can not. I just want to improve my ability to pick up tunes on the mandolin by ear.
> 
> David


Hey, I represent that comment!! I turned 50 . . . today. I am a singer. Does that mean I have to stop now?

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## DSDarr

> Originally Posted by  (bigwave @ Sep. 22 2006, 16:56)
> 
> The question for me then is the time involved -- is it worthwhile for me to learn to sing? I don't really want to sing at this point in life (just shy of 50 years old). I've always been told that I can not. I just want to improve my ability to pick up tunes on the mandolin by ear.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> Hey, I represent that comment!! I turned 50 . . . today. I am a singer. Does that mean I have to stop now?


Of course not. But do I have to learn??

-David

p.s. I am now playing Happy Birthday to you on the mandolin....

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## August Watters

> is it worthwhile for me to learn to sing? #I've always been told that I can not.


Since I'm an ear training teacher I have plenty of experience with folks who have difficulty reproducing a pitch vocally. It's not unusual to have a well-developed sense of pitch recognition and ability to find pitches on an instrument, while not being able to reproduce the same pitches vocally. Most people can do it without thinking about it, so it can be difficult to understand how this skill isn't second-nature for everyone.

Still, I agree with what Seth said: ANYONE can learn to sing. There are specific methods to build the ability to recognize reproduce pitches and intervals, and gain the vocal control to sing whatever's in the ear. It's hard work for someone who can't match pitch, but it's also a big payoff. 

There's still the issue though of whether it's worth the time investment. #I have some sympathy for folks who have limited time and energy for music study, and want to concentrate on instrumental skills. For those students, I work on pitch reproduction on the instrument. But I don't recommend this path for most.

August W
www.augustwatters.com

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## rsgars

> p.s. I am now playing Happy Birthday to you on the mandolin....


Thanks!

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## mandocrucian

There is a *difference* between "thinking the tune" and actually "vocalizing the tune" #(either with or without the instrument). As soon as you begin to vocalize, you turn on the lights in several other rooms in the brain. Now more mental wiring is involved in the entire process. The tune is being burned in deeper and in more circuits.

Also, when you vocalize, you *won't be holding your breath!* Doesn't sound like much, but you'd be surprised how many people start to hold their breath when they are concentrating. #Result, instant ratcheting up tension in the body.

Third - the voice is the *amplifier for mental thought*. If there's a lot going on up on the bandstand, you can easily get distracted and lose the thread of the solo were wer playing, or were about to play. #Your thoughts literally get drowned out. #Vocalizing is a way of magnifying your thoughts and focusing on them as an anti-distraction technique. Watch footage of any good jazz guitarist, and I'll bet you can see them vocalizing what they are playing.

Have you ever used a song or song riff ("Whole Lotta Love", "If Six Was Nine", "Sweet Home Alabama" etc.) to mentally block out the voice of someone you didn't want to listen to? #They are yapping at you, so you start to mentally sing "School's Out" or "You're So Vain" in your head to drown them out? #It works.

(Personally, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me if anyone wants to sing or not sing.)

NH

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## Michael H Geimer

Even though I started playing music twenty years ago, I didn't start singing until about 3-4 years ago.

But, for years and years I would 'test' my Mental Ear with simple tunes. I remember walking home one night with 'White X-mas' in my head, trying desperately to find each and every note in my mind. It didn't matter if I knew what the *name* of that note was, what mattered was that I could hold the sound of each note steady in my brain. This is what Niles (et al) is talking about.

Try *thinking* your way through Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do ... now do it backwards. Do it again. DO it everyday.

At this point ... I have a decent ear. Not superb, but perfectly serviceable. I'm doing today what the original poster hopes to do someday, and I got there by practicing the same advice that's all over this thread.

 - Benig

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## Jim Broyles

> Originally Posted by  (rsgars @ Sep. 22 2006, 17:06)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by  (bigwave @ Sep. 22 2006, 16:56)
> 
> ...


Uh, yeah, if you want to learn to pick out tunes on the mandolin by ear. We're not talking operatic training here, just learning to replicate vocally the musical intervals you hear.
Not being a wise guy, just giving you my honest opinion. By the way, how old will you be if you _don't_ learn to sing?

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## Soupy1957

kyblue&gt;&gt;&gt;perhaps it is because you are a "gal" that you get a break on the price?  I say that because it's sometimes true, that's all. It's ok, I'm learnin on my own I guess......just not as fast or as perfect as I would like.
  -Soupy1957

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## arbarnhart

Soupy,

I would keep looking around for lessons. I go every two to three weeks and my teacher is a good player from a local band. I take "half hour" lessons for $25. I quoted "half hour" because they always run at least 45 min and sometimes over an hour. I asked him about that one time and he said it is because he likes the mando so much (it is the instrument he plays in the band). When he gives a banjo lesson, he watches the clock like a hawk.

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## John Flynn

I've tried the "sing it first" method. I went through the Brad Davis method and also tried my own spin. I'm OK at it. I can sing a melody, just fine. I am even OK at regular singing. My issue is that I find a cumbersome extra step for learning tunes on the mando. It is easier for me to just pick the tune out. Like everything else, that gets easier the more I do it. The instructors I've had, including two of my favorite musicians, don't learn tunes by singing them either. They just start pickin'.

Here is my take: My main mando-mentor, Curtis Buckhannon, says, "You have to really listen to a tune to learn it. You have to get the tune in your head." I think there are different ways to do that. 

I am sure the "singing the melody" works for some people better than others, but what it is really doing is forcing you to really listen to the tune and get it in your head. It may be a good first step to "jump start" some people on ear learning. But it seems to be a step you can start skipping at some point. Alos, it is well documented that there are different learning styles. The singing may work for some and not others.

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## Avi Ziv

As important as the vocalizing part is for me - I should point out that I don't consider it a requirement to learning the fingering. For me, the singing is the easiest way to *validate* that I Know the tune. The learning part is done mostly by deep listening. Once I can sing it, however, I know that it's been absorbed and then the transfer to the instrument is easier for me. The sequence is not totally rigid. Sometime it goes like this: Someone as the session (ITM) plays a new tune. I manage to pick up some key phrases but not the whole thing. I go back and find a recording of the tune (and/or the "dots") and start listening and filling in the gaps with actual playing. Along the way, I make sure that I can vocalize the whole tune even when I turn off the recording. Often I arrive at knowing the tune inside of me and in my fingers at the same time or close to it. I have proven to myself that I could teach my fingers to play a tune by reading sheet music and/or repeating what others are doings. However, it feels disconnected to me (from Me) and I don't feel that I *own* that tune or that I can really control what I do so well unless I can vocalize it. One side benefit is that when I know the tune deep inside of me, I can transfer it to other instruments (penny whistle, piano etc) easier too. Yes - there are many ways to learn music. This method works for some of us. It may not feel natural at first, but when I think back of my transition from saxophone to mandolin - that did not feel natural or comfortable at all either. Now it does.

No dogma. Just sharing experiences.

Avi

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## arbarnhart

For the other folks who don't sing well...

I mentioned earlier that the suggestion in the ear training CD to use "hums" with note sounds like "da de de de dum" helped me some. I was thinking it over and experimenting with my singing - trying to sing things and paying attention to what goes wrong. It is mostly trying to get inflection into words or changing pitch during a word or phrase that throws me off. Also my timing will get off and because it is words I try to catch up instead of skipping a few like I would if I were playing an instrument. Single syllable meaningless "words" like "da", "de", "bom", "dum", "pum", etc are amazingly easier to do, as in possible. I just wanted to post again to be clear about that. Give it a try with some common melodies and you may be surprised how well you can do this even if you can't sing.

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## AlanN

Slightly off topic, but can apply to vocals.

I find that when I pick/sing with *very good* musicians, I pick/sing/sound that much better, almost like night and day in terms of my abilities. When picking with marginal/less experienced/*poor* musicians, I don't pick/sing/sound nearly as good. 

The old axiom applies: You're only as good as the weakest link.

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## jmcgann

> $45 per hour for music lessons, this seems to be right along the lines of what other professionals (such as carpenter, electrician or plumber)


Not professionals in a big city like Boston-not sure about carpenters, but electrians and plumbers are $125 an hour up here!  

There are music teachers who charge $45 a HALF hour here as well...and some more, and some less...depends on the professional credentials...

If you can't hear what you are playing, then it's just mechanical finger patterns. The "soul" that a lot of self-taught folks champion is hard to put into your playing if you can't HEAR what you are playing. Singing (even bad singing; my voice is of less than average quality, but I love to sing harmony and can alsmost do it in tune most of the time) will REALLY HELP YOUR PICKING (actually, it will really help your musicianship, because it teaches you to hear). Singing as in being able to match pitch you plunk out, one at a time...not virtuoso singing but the kind of singing that comes naturally to the youngest children.

Wind and brass and bowed instrument players have to hear their notes to play in tune. We mando, guitar and banjo people have it too easy with tuners and frets- Niles and I are going to come to your house, rip out your frets, take away your tuners (don't argue, Niles is a martial artist too), and make you play double helixatonic scales at dotted whole note =405 until we are satified.

Love, Officer McGann, The Music Policeman

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## Shana Aisenberg

[QUOTE] Niles and I are going to come to your house, rip out your frets, take away your tuners (don't argue, Niles is a martial artist too), and make you play double helixatonic scales at dotted whole note =405 until we are satified.[QUOTE]

You're being way too easy on folks. Let's just make em play the violin:D 

Seth

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## kyblue

> kyblue&gt;&gt;&gt;perhaps it is because you are a "gal" that you get a break on the price?


Ha, you gotta be kidding? And, considering what a pain I am to teach, I'm surprised I'm not charged a premium.

No, I pay $105 a month, for a 45 minute lesson each week, factored into the rate are specific weeks the instructor takes off - 8 or so a year. I haven't done the math, but I think the hourly rate would work out to about $40 per hour. 

Another part of the equation is that I'm in Kentucky, and the cost of living is cheaper here than a lot of places (in God's country, imagine that!) so things tend to be leass expensive. This is pretty much representative of the going rate in this part of the country, and you can get cheaper but I do take from a pro. 

And, mine is a commitment to a monthly fee to the instructor to keep my slot, regardless on how much I might choose to bug out out him for various reasons ( like IBMA next week!.) I've had other instructors where you pay at the lesson for that lesson (those in my experience are travelling pros that are rarely going to be available for a lesson!) 

Paula

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## mandocrucian

Adding _"language"_ (lyrics, sol-fa, rhythmic counting, etc.) #to the vocalizing activates additional parts of the brain. This burns in another (additional) level of neural associations. So you can start with sonic pitch (diddle dee dee, dooby doo - the meaningless syallables), get that in your head and add the layer of informational encoding with _"do-re-mi"_, or _"1 & #& 3 & 4a&"_ or _"Ta-ka-di-mi"_ and various mnemonic systems (either traditional from various world traditions, or ones you invent yourself for keeping track of specific functions or phrasing). The analytical part of the brain (commonly referred to as "left-brain") needs language (of some sort) to become involved in the whole process. It just can not _register_ nonsense syllables. 

I see comments which, to me, indicate that some folks are trying to get too specific about a process, or looking at an idea with tunnelvision. You don't have to _"sing it first"_ all the time. You can learn something off tab/notation and get it in your fingers (to some degree) and then "Hum" the notes your fingers are telling you to. #In this case, the sound of the instrument is cuing the voice - helping to train it "to hear" the new material. Jerry Coker and other jazz educators talk about this process in books like *Patterns For Jazz*.

But you don't want to vocalize so much, that you "have to hum" when you play. (John Hartford did that as a kid, and while he may have cut off the volume, there's a lot of weird grimaces and mouth movements that has become involuntarily). In other words, don't self-program yourself to a degree that you can't control it anymore. #(Moderation in all things)

Most (non-singers) can't fully register the nuances in vocalists' deliveries, because the lyrics activate the language centers of the brain to such a degree that it overpowers the right-brain listening. The lyrics dominate the mental receptivity. But if you want to begin to really appreciate the phrasing/timing/intonation of vocalists, it helps to remove the "language element" so that you can listen to a singer the same way you would listen to a sax plyer or guitarist, etc. How? Listen to people that use a language you have no understanding of - unintelligible lyrics revert to being a form of instrumental music. There have been time periods where I was listening to far more music in foreign languages (Greek, Hungarian, Swedish, Japanese, Thai, etc. etc.) than in English. But that allowed me to start to "hear" English language vocalists in a different way, without the language content blocking out other aspects.

Of course, if you are a real "singer", you're aware of this stuff because you've got to get it out and it's part of the singers' technique. So vocalists can play-like-they-sing or sing-like-they-play much more readily because it all gets blended together in the mind. Or there can be a difference between the way someone plays a "fiddle tune" and they way they accompany a song with "vocalize playing". A great example of this might be Curley Ray Cline. #I don't care for his fiddle-tune playing, but the backup work or song solos is something else - like Ralph Stanley (vocal) on an instrument.

The more advanced you become as a player, the more it all becomes about the mental rather than the physical. But you don't need to train your hands up to a certain level before you become aware of the other things happening. (i.e. your hands take up so much of your attention, that it overpowers and drowns out other stuff). There is _"playing" music_ and there is _playing a specific instrument_ and while the two overlap, they aren't the same thing. 

If there are any neurologists out there, I'd like to hear what you have to say from the medical/scientific perspective on all this.

Niles H

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## Bob DeVellis

Lots of good observations. arbarnhart and Improziv seem to have experiences similar to mine to some degree.

I think two different meanings of "vocalization" have found their way into this discussion and maybe it's worth sorting them out. "Internal vocalization," (sometimes referred to as subvocalization) or playing the tune in your head, is not what I have a problem with. I do that all the time and I agree it's a good test of knowing the tune. I usually get the tune into my head and into my fingers pretty much at the same time, each supporting the other. What I suggested didn't work for me is singing or humming the tune out loud and trying to match notes to the sound my vocal chords were producing. My vocal chords aren't sufficiently reliable, although obviously others don't have that problem. But the "internal pitch" is usually pretty good and, in fact, I do use that as a guide. Also, I use recorded sources as well to validate that my internal "recoding" is accurate. Often, it's correct in the overall shape but not in the details until I do more and more critical listening, paying particular attention to the details I'm not sure of. Going to notation at this point helps me a lot too and, if it's available, I'll check it out. I think this process is pretty similar to what others are describing. 

It's the "voice as pitch standard" part that I don't find working for me and that I seem to be able to work my way around without too much difficulty. So, really, all I was suggesting is that for me, the singing-out-loud part seems neither essential nor helpful. I'm not suggesting that as a universal principle, just saying that's how it works for me. I can certainly do a recognizable rendering of most of the tunes I play or have heard for my entire life (like Happy Birthday) but I wouldn't recommend that you tune your piano to it.

I think Niles makes a good point about engaging cross-modal mechanisms (like voice and thought) as a way to strengthen the neural representation of a melody but it seems reasonable to conclude that if the different channels are discrepant (i.e., if one is inacurate), it would equally degrade that representation. So, how well that works may depend on which modes are most reliable. For me, the aural (hearing what's on the recoding, for example), subvocal (vocalizing in my mind but not out loud), and manual (finding the notes on the mando) linkage seems to be the most efficient combination, having tried others on multiple occasions. In fact, I often also whistle the tune, which I'm surprised no one has mentioned. My whistling is more in the range of a mandolin than my voice. 

I also agree with AlanN that producing the correct pitch is a lot easier when there's a reliable "other source" like a bunch of good players or singers. Then, it's just a matter of detecting and removing pitch discrepancies. Seems to work well, especially with "continuous pitch" instruments like unfretted strings or voice. I think people learning fiddle really feel that intonation is easier when they're playing with other good players.

Interesting discussions.

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## Ken Sager

Gees, you folks think too much. Play it, sing it, think it, pick it, whatever. Just listen hard first, figure it out second, play it third. If it helps you to sing it, sing it. If it helps you to clap it, clap it. If it helps you to find the tab on the internet, find the tab on the internet. If you get stuck on any of these steps ask for help. Just try not to argue with someone who is helping.

There you go.

Big love to all,
Ken

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## jmcgann

> you folks think too much.


Right...what was I thinking?!?!?!

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## arbarnhart

> Originally Posted by  
> 
>  you folks think too much.
> 
> 
> Right...what was I thinking?!?!?!


I was disappointed in my public speaking, so I tried giving up thinking before talking once. That didn't go over so well...

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## brianf

If you pick the notes out of the chords you are holding, many of the notes you want are already fingered. So are the double stops you might wish to pick.

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