# Technique, Theory, Playing Tips and Tricks > Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks >  Developing Finger Independence

## Sherry Cadenhead

My teacher is wanting me to work on strengthening my left hand 3rd finger so it may act independently of both 2nd and 4th fingers. She showed me an exercise where I tap each finger separately, specifically to strengthen the muscle extending from the 3rd finger up the arm. Any other suggestions?

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## Jim Garber

Mike Marshall’s Finger Busters

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Mark Gunter

> Any other suggestions?


Yep.

Pages 5, 6, 7 & 8 contain numerous exercises for doing just what your teacher is suggesting. This is a *free* (or donate what you wish) booklet that Brad Laird offered on a recent podcast. NFI

Get the booklet here: https://payhip.com/b/VUzv

Visit the podcast episode's webpage here: http://www.bradleylaird.com/podcast/...how-notes.html

Jim's suggestion is a practical way that I'd highly recommend; also, as page 8 of Brad's booklet mentions, simply playing a tune you already know while leaving out the index finger, substituting middle for index and using middle, ring, pinky, is another finger busting hands-on-the-mandolin way.

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Oregon Jim, 

Sherry Cadenhead

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## Jacob

The thumb, the index, and the little finger each have a dedicated tendon in the hand. The middle and ring fingers share a single tendon, and the same muscle up the arm. The challenge is that second and third finger independence must be developed in the hand. Good advice above.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Bill McCall

I would also suggest being patient.  Today's big effort is tomorrow's (and maybe the next day's) soreness.  If 5 minutes is good, 20 minutes may not be better.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> Mike Marshall’s Finger Busters


Thanks, Jim. This one looks pretty advanced. I'll keep it in mind.

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> Yep.
> 
> Pages 5, 6, 7 & 8 contain numerous exercises for doing just what your teacher is suggesting. This is a *free* (or donate what you wish) booklet that Brad Laird offered on a recent podcast. NFI
> 
> Get the booklet here: https://payhip.com/b/VUzv
> 
> Visit the podcast episode's webpage here: http://www.bradleylaird.com/podcast/...how-notes.html
> 
> Jim's suggestion is a practical way that I'd highly recommend; also, as page 8 of Brad's booklet mentions, simply playing a tune you already know while leaving out the index finger, substituting middle for index and using middle, ring, pinky, is another finger busting hands-on-the-mandolin way.


Mark, I've enjoyed many of Brad's podcasts. I've downloaded the book and will listen to the podcast. I wish Brad included standard notation in his materials; otherwise, the ones I have are excellent.

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> I wish Brad included standard notation in his materials; otherwise, the ones I have are excellent.


Apologies to Brad!  As I look over the entire workbook, I see there's one page with some serious notation.  Not sure of the context, but will when I get to that point???

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> The thumb, the index, and the little finger each have a dedicated tendon in the hand. The middle and ring fingers share a single tendon, and the same muscle up the arm.


Interesting!

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## Tom Haywood

Practicing 3 finger chords is one the earliest steps to getting some independence with that ring finger.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> Practicing 3 finger chords is one the earliest steps to getting some independence with that ring finger.


Maybe that explains why I struggle so much with 3 finger chords.

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## bradlaird

To Sherry and anyone interested. 

For the record I encourage all players to learn both systemsin fact I did a recent podcast discussing tab and standard and 3 other ways we learn. 

Regarding my instructional material: All of my mandolin videos include tab and standard. 

Some of my books have both and some dont for two reasons:

It is my belief that learning to navigate and see constellations of notes and patterns on the fret board is assisted by tab and hindered by standard. The book Master Class, Training Camp and Excursion are tab only. 

Reason 2. When I wrote those books I didnt have a decent program to create good notation. I was using some ancient Mac program (same one Banjo Newsletter used for years) and it worked to get my points across. 

If you want a full mea culpa go find my tab vs std episode on grasstalkradio.com.

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Kenny, 

Sherry Cadenhead

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## bigskygirl

Keep learning tunes with good technique and tone.  Shift your hand so that in open position the 2, 3, and 4 fingers are playing melody rather than 1, 2, and 3...keep at it and it will come.

It may have been mentioned but when you’re doing a 3 finger chord like A 2245 I use index and then ring and little, some people - Don Steirnberg, Aaron Weinstein other pros - use index, second, and ring to allow the pinky to “dance” for embellishment but I wouldn’t focus on that right now just go slow and listen for good tone, as you develop you’ll adapt.

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Mark Gunter, 

Sherry Cadenhead

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## Dillon

> The thumb, the index, and the little finger each have a dedicated tendon in the hand. The middle and ring fingers share a single tendon, and the same muscle up the arm. The challenge is that second and third finger independence must be developed in the hand. Good advice above.


Jacob, that is very interesting fact and relevant I would imagine. So I'm testing this by sitting here and quickly wiggling my index & middle (separate tendons) and then wiggling the middle and ring (shared tendon). Just concentrating on how it feels and moves - as it should feel different. And, I think I can feel the difference - the separate index / middle does feel smoother and easier to move faster.

Another observation - I can move the I / M and the M / R pair quickly and keep the other fingers relatively quiet. But the R / P pair . . . forget it, the M goes nuts!

One little practice technique I use is to just play some tunes but shift to the next fingers down instead of the normal way. Very good for coordination and strength, hammers, pull-offs, triplets, etc.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Jacob

An exercise for woodwind players has been helpful. 
Place your hands palm down on a flat surface in front of you. 
With arms & hands relaxed, concentrate on only raising and lowering the tips of the ring fingers.
Then try developing speed at doing this.
Have played finger style guitar using thumb & three fingers for fifty plus years.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## ralph johansson

> Keep learning tunes with good technique and tone.  Shift your hand so that in open position the 2, 3, and 4 fingers are playing melody rather than 1, 2, and 3...keep at it and it will come.
> 
> It may have been mentioned but when youre doing a 3 finger chord like A 2245 I use index and then ring and little, some people - Don Steirnberg, Aaron Weinstein other pros - use index, second, and ring to allow the pinky to dance for embellishment but I wouldnt focus on that right now just go slow and listen for good tone, as you develop youll adapt.


Three fingers to cover seven frets? I can barely manage five.

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## bigskygirl

> Three fingers to cover seven frets? I can barely manage five.


This is not ffcp, the 2, 3, and 4 fingers cover frets 1-5, no need to reach up to 7 in open position as those notes are not used on open position but if they are  just shift your hand.  The pinky can reach out to the 6th fret easily or just shift slightly if your hand is small.

This is not an exercise one would do for hours.  The goal is not to get the tunes to warp speed or performance level, simply get thru them cleanly and comfortably a few times then go back to the regular way, over time you will feel more finger independence.

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Mark Gunter

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## Sherry Cadenhead

So any suggestions for keeping 4th finger (pinky) over the fretboard, as opposed to allowing it to do its own thing?

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## Mark Gunter

If you figure it out, let me know.

signed/flying fingers

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## Bill McCall

Good left hand position helps keeping the pinky in line.  I use scales and scales in thirds, ffcp, slowly, paying attention to my pinky mechanics.  I've got a long way to go,  I aspire to the Alan Bibey or Chris Thile level for sure, but its a large hill.  

I didn't start as a child, I'm sure that wasn't helpful :Frown:

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> If you figure it out, let me know.
> 
> signed/flying fingers


I've been slowing some things down a bit and really focusing on that 4th finger, keeping it under control.  It's helping a lot, as I can see out of the corner of my eye.  My teacher says she can tell a big difference as well.

As I read back over Bill McCall's response, I'm pretty sure this is what he is saying.

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Bill McCall, 

Jon Hall

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## Oregon Jim

I'm new here and certainly don't want to act like the expert. I will just say that having played guitar off and on since 1961. I'm accustomed to using all my left-hand fingers for chords. Using my ring finger for a slide (as Sharon Gilchrist taught in an early Peghead Nation lesson) was surprising, but not a huge challenge. 

I think an easy way to get your ring finger into taking some responsibility would be to play a few simple G, C, D songs with your 2nd and 3rd fingers making the 2-finger chords instead of your 1st and 2nd.

Jim

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> I'm new here and certainly don't want to act like the expert. I will just say that having played guitar off and on since 1961. I'm accustomed to using all my left-hand fingers for chords. Using my ring finger for a slide (as Sharon Gilchrist taught in an early Peghead Nation lesson) was surprising, but not a huge challenge. 
> 
> I think an easy way to get your ring finger into taking some responsibility would be to play a few simple G, C, D songs with your 2nd and 3rd fingers making the 2-finger chords instead of your 1st and 2nd.
> 
> Jim


Interesting!

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## Sherry Cadenhead

I've mentioned many times in the Forum my teacher is a professional violinist.  She is an amazing teacher, although I feel she demands a little too much perfection from me, as a late-in-life learner with no great aspirations.  Technique is HUGE with her.  Lately, one of my greatest challenges is separating the 2nd (middle) and 3rd (ring) fingers when I play.  I was considering asking you guys if separation of those 2 fingers was the same with violin and mandolin.  Then I saw this video posted by Tim Logan in another thread.  OMG, can this guy separate those fingers!  Anyway, just thought I would share.  If you've seen the video in Tim's context, now look at it for the finger separation.

Enjoy.

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Jon Hall

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## Ranald

> I've mentioned many times in the Forum my teacher is a professional violinist.  She is an amazing teacher, although I feel she demands a little too much perfection from me, as a late-in-life learner with no great aspirations.  Technique is HUGE with her.


I've studied under and observed a few music teachers in my day, and find that many aren't as sophisticated as they think. Although people learn in many different ways, a considerable number of teachers mainly imitate the way that they are taught; after all it worked for them, and works well for some of their students. Other teachers believe that the academy's method is the only standard, although mandolin is played in many styles. Finally, a great many teachers seem to have no concept that adults don't have the flexibility that children do. I've learned to tell teachers that I have physical limitations that affect how I can use my hands. As well, I tell young teachers that seniors like me generally aren't as mouldable as young folks. That's what they have to deal with, and I have to remind them now and then. If a teacher can't accept that, I'm gone. I'd suggest discussing your issues with your teacher. If you can't come to an understanding, you'd be better off with a teacher who understands your needs, goals, and limitations better. But keep exercising those fingers -- gaining finger coordination is a slow process.

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## Mark Gunter

> I've studied under and observed a few music teachers in my day, and find that many aren't as sophisticated as they think. Although people learn in many different ways, a considerable number of teachers mainly imitate the way that they are taught; after all it worked for them, and works well for some of their students. Other teachers believe that the academy's method is the only standard, although mandolin is played in many styles. Finally, a great many teachers seem to have no concept that adults don't have the flexibility that children do. I've learned to tell teachers that I have physical limitations that affect how I can use my hands. As well, I tell young teachers that seniors like me generally aren't as mouldable as young folks. That's what they have to deal with, and I have to remind them now and then. If a teacher can't accept that, I'm gone. I'd suggest discussing your issues with your teacher. If you can't come to an understanding, you'd be better off with a teacher who understands your needs, goals, and limitations better. But keep exercising those fingers -- gaining finger coordination is a slow process.


+1

There is some music that you love to listen to. You might use what you’ve already learned to try to figure out a way to play a song you really love. No matter what the ‘genre’ of music. Start trying to find ways to learn some song you love deeply. Figure out the challenges that face you in playing that song and tackle them one by one. No time table, a personal quest.

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GrooverMcTube, 

Sue Rieter

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## Sherry Cadenhead

> +1
> 
> There is some music that you love to listen to. You might use what you’ve already learned to try to figure out a way to play a song you really love. No matter what the ‘genre’ of music. Start trying to find ways to learn some song you love deeply. Figure out the challenges that face you in playing that song and tackle them one by one. No time table, a personal quest.


Thanks to Ranald and Mark for their comments.  I was trying to give context to the video I posted.  In the process I seemed to have made the post about my teacher, which was not intended.  I'm hopeful there will be a mandolin orchestra in my area soon; if so, what she has taught me will serve me well.  In the meantime, I'm also doing what you suggested, Mark, and started a thread a few days ago on that subject.

I hope someone sees value in the video, which was the point of my posting it.

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## JeffD

One of the wonderful things about learning good technique is that it can be practiced on any tunes in any genre. The mandolin's contribution to different genres of music don't require different techniques. Everything you learn and everything you practice regularly improves everything you play. Its kind of magical that way. All of a sudden looking down and noticing a smoothness and fluidity in playing a tune you hadn't deliberately gone about practicing.

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Sherry Cadenhead

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## Jim Garber

Danilo Brito is a brilliant player of choro and other music. We can all aspire to his ability but I have long given up that aspiration for me.  :Smile:

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## Ranald

> Thanks to Ranald and Mark for their comments.  I was trying to give context to the video I posted.  In the process I seemed to have made the post about my teacher, which was not intended.  I'm hopeful there will be a mandolin orchestra in my area soon; if so, what she has taught me will serve me well.  In the meantime, I'm also doing what you suggested, Mark, and started a thread a few days ago on that subject.
> 
> I hope someone sees value in the video, which was the point of my posting it.


Sherry, I enjoyed the Danilo Brito video very much, and did absorb the point you were making about his playing. I certainly can't play like him, but after years of fiddling, my problems tend to be more with chording -- stretching fingers and having them land on the right place at once -- than with picking....I know, I'm working on it.

I agree with the others that anything you learn helps your playing. However, repeatedly attempting to do what your hands may never be able to is frustrating. It teaches you your limitations, but not how to deal with what you can accomplish. If you haven't talked with your teacher about your physical problems, I'd still suggest that you do. If your teacher is a young person, though she may be excellent in many ways, she might not understand the physical issues that many older people deal with. Teachers often talk about how much they learn from their students. Let's do our part to help them. Good luck with your learning process.

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Jim Garber

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## sblock

Sherry -- I'm delighted to learn that you like your instructor, who is a classically trained, professional violinist.  It's great to have a teacher with whom you have a good rapport.  But you need to keep firmly in mind that a mandolin is not merely "a violin with frets."  Quite a number of playing techniques and hand positions differ significantly between the  two instruments.  Also, even within in the mandolin world, there are significant differences between the way that most classical mandolinists approach learning musical pieces and the way that most folk mandolinists do. They are as different as the playing styles of, say, Caterina Lichtenberg and Mike Marshall -- who, of course, are married to one another, thus proving that these different styles are not entirely irreconcilable!   :Wink:  

All kidding aside, the "best" exercises for improving your playing may depend very much on the type of music you intend to play. There is no one-size-fits-all method! For example, good ear training is absolutely indispensable for folk music, with its aural tradition, but reading musical notation is not much of a requisite.  Conversely, classical training often involves learning to play a series of etudes, and also learning how to sight read. Classical training tends to emphasize "proper" playing form; folk music is more tolerant of different (and possibly idiosyncratic) methods.  

Anyway, unless you are pursuing the strict classical route with your mandolin playing, you might benefit by exposing yourself to more mandolin players, in addition to your violin-centric instructor.  But of course, that's just my jaded opinion, which you are free to ignore! (I mean well.)  Anyway, learning is a lifelong, joyous activity.

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Jess L., 

Ranald

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