# Instruments and Equipment > Builders and Repair >  Mandolin building cost per hour

## David Horovitz

OK, so I'm ready for the weekend to start . . .
I was reading that article about Dan Voight on the cafe homepage in which he mentions it takes 300 to 400 hours to make a "good" mandolin. That got me thinking, how much is that an hour?

If I use 350 hours, that's 43.8 days at 8 hrs per day or 6.3 weeks (7 days).

So, for a range of selling prices:

Mandolin # # # # #Cost
Selling Price # # #Per Hour
$2,000 # # # # # # $5.71
$4,000 # # # # # # $11.43
$6,000 # # # # # # $17.14
$8,000 # # # # # # $22.86
$10,000 # # # # # $28.57
$15,000 # # # # # $42.86
$20,000 # # # # # $57.14
$25,000 # # # # # $71.43
$30,000 # # # # # $85.71
$35,000 # # # # # $100.00
$40,000 # # # # # $114.29

I'm not trying to make any particular point, just looking at what the implied cost per hour is at various price ranges. At 300 hours a $2K mando would cost $6.67/hr and a $40K mando $133.33/hr. At 400 hours a $2K mando would be $5/hr and at $40K $100/hr. 

I imagine different builders take more or less time than 300 to 400 hours depending on materials used, equipment, experience, technique, attention to details, etc.

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## Bill Snyder

I don't think MOST good mandolins take 300-400 hours to build. I think the 100-150 hour range for an all handbuilt F-style is closer for most builders. You have to remember Mr. Voight has built 2 instruments and from the video I am not sure that his carving technique is as quick as some others.
Using 2080 hours per year (40 hours x 52 weeks) divided by 150 hours yields almost 14 instruments a year. Figuring material and hardware cost at $750(could be a lot of variance in that figure) for a good mandolin how much should that mandolin cost?
I spent several years in residential construction and I considered myself to be a fairly highly skilled trim carpenter. I got $20/hour when I quit trimming houses. I think a skilled luthier should make more than that, say $30/hour or more.
At 150 hours that would be $4,500 for labor and $750 for material/hardware. That is $5,250 + overhead (rent, electricity, advertising, insurance, etc...). Then the dealer (if purchased from one) has to make a reasonable profit. I can see a sales price of $8,000 -$9,000 being reasonable for a handbuilt instrument. 
For some of the experienced builders that have an excellent reputation based on the stellar quality of their instruments there is added value. Hence the ability to charge $10,000, $12,000 or more.
Some of the builders use duplicarvers or CNC for the rough carving and cut the number of hours per instrument down and still maintain the quality because the most critical parts of the building process remain. More power to them.
By the way, I get the impression that not many of the builders here are getting $30/hour. They also can't spend all of their work time building because they have a business to run so in order to build enough instruments to make a living they work more than 40 hours/week.
Like it has been pointed out several times you don't build for the money, you build because you are compelled to build.

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## Chris Baird

Thus far my expenses and overhead have accounted for about 80% of my gross income. But, as I get my tooling together I think this figure will come down. 
 However, the overhead and expenses (after the initial investment phase)are likely to eat up 1/3 of your gross income. Taxes will take 1/3 of that. After all is said and done it comes out as a rather low paying highly skilled job. You've got to love the job, otherwise you're far better off making cabinets.

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## SternART

Chris is on the mark on this one....if you haven't run a small business, you might not see all the time & expenses invested in having a life of building instruments. And it can take YEARS of research and development to understand and control the skills good enough, to consistantly build a stellar instrument. And certainly not 100% of your working hours is actually spent building instruments. With any small business there are dozens of hats to wear. How about sales, answering a zillion questions in emails to mando-nerds like us, phone calls to suppliers, finding great materials, sweeping the floor etc etc. Or expenses.... like traveling to shows, renting booth space, ads in magazines, etc etc.

If I figured out what I make per hour, in my business as an architectural glass artist......I'd be doing something else. You need to love what you're doing & the lifestyle.....luthiery is an honorable profession, but you're about as likely to get rich with a job as a BG mandolin player, as you are being a mandolin luthier.....which isn't saying much. I think it is a cool profession though....and have done my part, spending my hard earned art dollars, in supporting luthiers.....by commissioning instruments. I hope some of them have enjoyed the experience as much as I have.

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yeah, im in glass as well, and i have roughly 20 grand in equipment tools etc. i have NO CLUE where i stand with how much money i really made over the years. but i do love what i do!

also we are talking hand built right? because i dont see it taking a big company who can rough cut tops and backs much faster because they have the specialized equipment to do so as many hours as mentioned.

i want to make a mandolin someday, and oy! i didnt think it would be that much time! i am a rank amatuer in the ways of woodworking.

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## OlderThanWillie

Question: #How can a luthier work for a few years and end up with a million dollars?

Answer: #Start with two million dollars.

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## amowry

I average about 250 hours per instrument at the moment. After expenses it works out to below mimum wage in this state.

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## mythicfish

Considering what you would pay other honest and competent tradespeople/artisans, a good, hand-made
musical instrument is one of the best bargains around. 
I'm not one to "drop names", but the mandolin I bought from Dale Ludewig last year has paid for itself in more ways than one.

Curt

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## Jim Rowland

I just shipped a custom mando to a client, with a special coloring,Allen tailpiece,good materials and tuners,triple and side bound body etc,etc. Just for kicks I added up my material costs and was shocked at how much money I'd invested..including the crazy shipping costs from several suppliers,case and finishing materials. Turns out I was working for less than a dollar an hour. Luckily,I don't have to depend on that income for support. Like many other nuts out there,a sincere letter acknowledging that all the customers expectations had been nailed is all it took to make my day. I certainly don't recommend this approach to building or any other business,but I'm sure there are many like me doing stuff like this because they enjoy it. I don't advertise and sell to random people I meet along the way.Keeps the pressure off. 
Jim

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## Duc Vu

Another way to look at it, 150-200 hours is 4-5 weeks of full time work. How much would you have to pay a skilled craftman (or craftwoman) in any other field to work exclusively for you for that lenght of time?
Mythicfish is right, mandolins are still great bargains!

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## sunburst

I'm only in it for the money.

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Pete Jenner

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## Jerry Stapleton

I found out real fast that I will never make a living building mandolins----just hopefully enough to buy a few more tools and material to build more. But alas! I also found out to late, that Im hopelessly addicted to building those little devils!-----its madness I tell you! madness!

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## Hans

Efficiency is a must in building instruments. A good builder should be able to turn out a high quality "A" mandolin in 100-150 hours depending on the trim level. "F" models will run anywhere from 200-270 hours in my experience. Those figures exclude accidents, disaster, and staining/finishing problems (and don't think that they don't happen). I don't know about building instruments in batches, but I suspect it works out to about the same.
General materials (excluding Caltons, Pegs, Waverlys, and other such luxury items) run around $200-300. Add to that expendable materials (glue, finish, stain, sandpaper etc.) and you can add another $20-50 bucks.
Overhead (electric, heat, instrument and business insurance, garbage, computers, office supplies, you name it) is a major expense, and just think of the cost of health insurance... EEK! Tools...where to I start? I bought one major power tool every year for 10 years, add to that all the "little" ones like drills, routers, even pliers, screwdrivers.
So, even excluding all the business expense, insurance, overhead, etc. an $8000 F style instrument built to the highest standards works out to about 28 bucks an hour GROSS. If you price that same instrument at $5000, that works out to 18 bucks. 
Now you might feel that 28 or 18 bucks an hour is a lot of scratch to be making, but now take out all the overhead and insurance and it works out to more like 6-12 bucks, and that's hands on time. Imagine the time to answer questions, do the office end of the business, clean the shop, order materials or drive out to buy supplies.
After all was said and done last year, a $8/hr job looks pretty darn good, but I can't stop the passion.

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## grandmainger

> I average about 250 hours per instrument at the moment. After expenses it works out to below mimum wage in this state.


That's a very sad thing to read. Very sad indeed.

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## sunburst

> ...but I can't stop the passion.


Passion shmassion. I'm still only in it for the money.

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Pete Jenner

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## Bill Snyder

John you need to get your story straight. Here is a quote from you in a thread from last August: _
"I'm doing this because I enjoy it, not to get rich, and if I enjoy the hand tool more than the power tool, but it takes 10 minutes longer, well then, I get to do the fun part for 10 more minutes!"_ 
Which is it John - the fun or the big bucks your after? Or maybe its the women.

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## Mike Buesseler

This is an interesting, if only half-serious discussion (we all _knew_ John Hamlett was in this just for the money  ). 

One problem with applying math to the issue is that you ain't paying for the _time_ anyone puts into your mandolin, you are paying for the _product_. And, you are paying what you and the luthier agree it is worth. That price reflects much more than the time he/she puts into _your_ mandolin. It reflects the skill, experience, taste, integrity, and a whole lot of other factors besides the number of hours spent building your instrument. On the average, I expect each luthier is paid pretty close to what their work is worth--on the ever-fickle market.

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## Hans

[QUOTE]
...I'm still only in it for the money. 

Good luck with that John! 

[QUOTE]
...I expect each luthier is paid pretty close to what their work is worth...

Certainly not born out by builder's comments so far...

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## Mike Buesseler

*...I expect each luthier is paid pretty close to what their work is worth...

Certainly not born out by builder's comments so far...
*

I'm not sure what you mean, Hans. There wasn't even a question in this thread, just observations and some calculations. You said yourself that even though your work calculates out at about $8/hr, you "can't stop the passion," which I take to mean you wouldn't trade your job for any other. I wouldn't expect any luthiers around here to say anything else. Otherwise, why keep doing this? With the incredible skills and artistry you each have, surely you could all get higher paying jobs. That passion (love of your work) must be worth a lot to _you_.

I'm not trying to throw any judgmental stuff in here, nor am I trying to address the "fairness" of any of this. It has just always helped me to understand my own incentives (costs and benefits) of choices I make. (I retired early. It affected my pension check, but I got the _time_ to pursue my _passions_, which is pretty near pricless to me. )

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## Rick Schmidlin

I have a friend who is a noted guitar luthier.It costs him about $650.00 for a Braz/Ad Guitar .He has made most of his own machines and tools himself.It takes a month from start to finish and the guitar sits alot during the process try from glues and finishs but there is always some little to do.His guitars with the wood retail around $8,000.00, remember this is not what he gets,this includes dealer mark up.He build the guitars by himself and has fifty years of exsperance.He also makes templates and tools for other luthier's. A Mahognay /Engleman guitar cost $200.00 less in wood buttakes the same time, these go for $3,000.What does this all say.If a man puts fifty years of hard work passion and devotion into his product and takes home before taxes $4,000.00 a month, he is making a living not over charging.I don't he thought of breaking it down by the hour.

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## Jim Rowland

The diversity of personal motivations was brought home forcefully to me a while back as I was driving by the huge mansion and grounds located on what is known to the locals as "Hamlett Hill" in Virginia. The dancing girls frolicking near the Olympic size pool and the 6' plus lawn jockey (bearing a remarkable resemblance to Lynn Dudenbostel) spoke eloquently of the thing which all the cognoscente cognoscent....John must be doing it for the money. We understand and forgive you,John. 
But seriously folk,it aint in the cards for small output luthiers to make much money. All the points Hans made are valid plus the fact that your net (if there is any)aint your net unless you don't spend the money. If you do spend it,another twenty or so per cent goes for hidden taxes. One of my sons (the one who would never amount to much)makes nearly eighty K a year installing computer systems in convenience stores. I love the boy dearly,but he can't drive a nail.
Jim

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## Chadmills

"cognoscenti cognoscent" - Like it, I may have to borrow that one Jim
Tom

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## sunburst

Jim, I can't believe you drove by without stopping in for a dip in the pool! The guards would have let you in if you had told them who you were, and one of the girls would have gotten you some trunks, a robe and a towel from the pool house.
(You wouldn't believe what I had to pay Lynn to pose for that sculpture, BTW!)

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## amowry

Darn, I thought I had the only Lynn sculpture. This knowledge will reduce its value by a few Gs.

I probably sounded a little too cynical in my previous post. I'd MUCH rather be earning minimum wage in the shop than sitting at my previous desk job where I could have made a respecatble living if I had kept at it. In fact, there isn't a day that goes by when I don't count my blessings. Fortunately there are many types of compensation other than monetary.

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## Dale Ludewig

The last time I saw Mr. Hamlett he was dressed to the nines and chuckling under his breath at the rest of his luthier brethren. For shame, John. Perhaps there were Speedo's (sp?) under those handmade trousers?  

The last time I actually took the time to monitor how long it takes me to make an F5 style mando, it was in the area of 120-130 hours. I usually figure an average of about $500 minimum per instrument for basic materials. Plug in Waverleys, fiberglass case, etc. and the cost of materials goes way up. I do indeed raise my prices for those options. 

I have over 30 years of full time woodworking experience. My overhead is nothing like someone working out of their garage/ basement/ on site shop. As was mentioned earlier, if you've not run your own small business not out of your home, you may not understand all the stuff involved. I wish I could do it out of my house or such. But the overhead of a separate shop is sobering.

Mention has been made of CNC shortening the time. That is completely dependent on what you use it for, to what extent, and so forth. Not to mention the incredible (and I stress incredible) amount of time and money involved in buying the thing, learning how to use it in the most basic of its functionality, hours and hours of time spent learning how to use software to make the thing run. You've got to run a lot of mandolin stuff through it to pay for it. Way more than I think most people realize. For me, it was more of a health reason than other things. I'll admit that it does allow me to do some things that would be difficult to do by hand; not impossible, but more difficult.......... but how do you define that? There's a lot of difficulty involved in learning how to make it do what you want. Designing stuff like inlay on the computer (hours and hours) and then hoping it all works out on the machine. Not to mention the time of making jigs. I'm making no case for or against the CNC option. Just stating my experience. 

Sorry to ramble, but this "hourly calculation" as it can be looked at leaves out so much stuff that is a cost to a luthier. Heck, I haven't even mentioned the amount of time and money it takes to go and exhibit at this place or that. Advertise. Take discounts on your work if you go through a retailer. Yadda, yadda.

The luthiers I know do this because they love the work and they (me included) try to get to a point where you can charge a reasonable price for your work. It takes years and focus. And maybe a day job. Mine is my furniture/ cabinet business. 

Hans, it must be some sort of passion. Sunburst, next time I come your way I expect to have a chair and towel waiting for me beside the pool and sculpture!

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## Duc Vu

Hamlett Manor, the back forty.

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## Dan Voight

Im glad to see my snipet has arroused some great discussion. My 3-400 hr quote was just an estimate posssibly an over estimate) that I made after building only two instruments. I would have to say I am slower than the more experienced builders out there. I've asked my self many of the same questions that I've read on this post about pricing etc. and have thought twice about a starting price for my Fs to be at $2,300 (I'm still not sure). I chose to build because I am both an artist and a perfectionist at heart and I am fascinated with the modern mandolin. Other things that compell me to build are overpriced and average sounding instruments. Like I said, I build because of the fascination but also because I cant practice my playing and be satisfied if my instrument dosent sound how I would like it to. So, I figured I would make it sound how I want it to.

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## Michael Lewis

When I first started making archtop guitars I kept a time log of the various processes. The first couple archtops took about 100 hrs before starting the finish. I thought I could improve on that, so continued keeping my time log. Well, the guitars got better and better and took longer and longer. It now takes me upwards of 150 hours to make one, more if it gets tricky. I just finished one early January that took me over 250 hrs. It's kinda fancy.

When I started making mandolins I thought the process was extremely complicated and took way too long. The better I got at doing this the longer it took. There is no easy way.

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## mandolooter

As with a lot of things there is no easy way...

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## whistler

I did a rough tally of the hours spent building my first mandolin, and it added up to 1000 hours! If I were to be paid fairly for my hours, I'd need to sell it for at least £10,000 - given that it was 1000 hours of 'skilled' labour. As it is, I've become too attached to it to want to sell it and, fortunately, have not been in a position that I have _had_ to sell it. Besides, nobody in their right mind would spend that much on a mandolin, much less a somewhat rough-round-the-edges prototype from a novice maker. My subsequent instruments have taken significantly less time, and I aim to bring it down to about 100 hours - an achievable goal, I think, especially since I am primarily interested in flat-topped, flat-backed instruments.  That, I hope, would enable me to charge competitive prices and still be able to pay the rent and put food on the table.

Of course, I'm living in Cloud Cuckoo Land - I realise that. Making 20 mandolins a year is one thing, selling them is another - and convincing people that it's worth spending £1000 when they could pick up a Korean-made cheapie for £100 or less. But if I let myself believe it wasn't possible, I'd give it up.

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## Bill Snyder

£1000 ($1960.00) will get you four Big Muddy (formerly Mid-Missouri) flat tops in the USA. I would think to be competitive building flat tops you will need to be able to build them start to finish in 40 or 50 hours each. 
The first mandolin I built was a flat top with HPL back and sides. If memory serves me correctly it took less than 30 hours start to finish. Of course it is not of the quality to sell but almost three years later it is still quite playable and does not look to bad.

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## Hans

20 mandolins a year may be achievable for some builders, but I have never been able to do that! Works out to about 1.7 per month, and if you're building 2 F5's at 200 hrs each that's 340 hours a month...over 80 hours a week, 52 weeks a year.

Tempting, but no... # #

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## Rick Turner

A flat top and back Army Navy style mando shouldn't take any more than about 15 to 20 hours unless you are going to go crazy with binding, purfling, and inlay.  In my teaching, the students do their first mando in about 28 hours with a lot of lecture time. True, there's a pre-machined neck, a slotted fingerboard, and the top and back seams are done ahead of time to cut down on time spent watching the glue dry, but I don't have more than about an hour and a half into those steps, so it's still a 30 hour mandolin...and that's with students many of whom never did anything like this before.

I think that anyone wanting to do this for a living better give up on the "nobility of excess time"...that one up-manship where we claim to put many hours more into the process than should be there. "Oh look how much time I've spent on this...it must be wonderful!"  Sorry, folks, that doesn't cut it in the real world.  We don't get paid for effort; we get paid for results. 

In my shop, the closest thing to a production flat mando that we build are our tenor ukes, and we have less than fifteen hours into each one, and we haven't gotten to CNC'ing the necks yet on those.  I want to see us build those in about ten hours.  That's with one employee doing the whole build other than spraying which I do.  We have to wholesale our bottom of the line ukes for under $450.00...less than Gryphon Stringed Instruments charges for a Martin neck reset/refret.  Out of that $450.00 come parts, labor, overhead, and profit.  And we can do that...if we keep the build time under control.  There's nothing we do right now that couldn't be done in a one-man shop, either.  

Jim Olson hit a pace of 50 guitars a year in his one man shop.  That's good...but it's not Taylor or Martin pace.  I think they've got about 8 hours into a standard D-28 now...

So no navel gazing, guys.  Make every hour you put in meaningful and learn to work assuredly and confidently.  Get the grunt work out of the way as fast as humanly possible, and only put in the painstaking work where it counts in the results.  No sanding the interior end blocks to 1200 grit....

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## martinedwards

As usual, Rick is spot on.

I was talking to George Lowden a few months ago (he makes guitars for those of you who don't realise that there's a world beyond 8 strings!!) and he was sying that his big jump was when he got the concept of speed building into his head.

Part of it came form the better availability of materials and power tools.(hand rubbing yacht varnish to a gloss finish takes AGES!!!!!)

I can make my mandonaught guitar shaped mandos in under 20 hours, and a fair bit of that is rubbing out the finish.

a power polisher would take another couple of hours off.

But for me as a hobby builder, it isn't a race. when I'm quoting for a friend it's pretty much materials cost. For a stranger, to be honest it's only a little more than THAT!!!

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## Hans

I'm sorry, an Army/Navy mandolin is a far shot from a $10,000 F5 mandolin. Shoving a top through a Timesaver is a lot easier than carving and graduating a top. Machined neck...I see. Sounds a long way from "handbuilt"...more like "kit" assembly.
 "Nobility of time"? #I don't claim to put in "many hours more into the process than there should be". That's how long it takes. I've been doing this for quite a while...I know where the shortcuts are.
I know Jim Olson. He is so CNC'd and jigged out that Collings could take a lesson from him. He builds flat top guitars. If he can assemble 50 a year. good for him. At a starting price of 14K I guess he'll pay for his factory.
There is no comparison between building a flat top guitar and an arched mandolin. 
Tell me that you don't use a D/A sander, you hand sand your instruments. 
Tell me that there is no difference between using 6 coats of lacquer and using varnish and French polish. 
Tell me that it's just as easy to bind an F5 as it is to bind a guitar. 
 I built flat top guitars in the '70's...I know what's involved.

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## Jerry Byers

How much time is involved with the curing of glues and finishes? Is this figure included or excluded from total build time? There must be some difference between the time quoted as build time for the customer and actual hands-on time.

I ask because I'm assuming once the building process has matured, building in batches has to save some time in the overall build cycle.

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## Hans

Jerry, we're talking hands on time here. Takes a good month for varnish to dry, and 10-15 days to apply. 
Depends what you mean by buiding in batches. I build 4-6 necks at the same time, rout 4-6 tops and backs at the same time, but when I start a box, it's one at a time. When I get one strung up in the white I start another. While it may take a little longer to do that way, I don't think it amounts to much. The way I have things set up, I can change from process to process quickly, so I don't lose any time going from say glueing on a top to routing for binding. The advantage I see in doing it this way is that I devote all my attention to graduating, tuning, detailing one box at a time.

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## Jerry Byers

Thanks Hans. I figured that is what you guys were talking about.

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## Links

Thanks guys for reminding all of these wonderfully talented gentlemen (and ladies) that they are charging way to little for their works of art! #I am glad that it is partially a labor of love (except for Hamlett) or none of us would be able to afford these things. #My gratitude goes out to all of these folks and I for one greatly appreciate their dedication to their craft. #It is my goal to own "one of each" #- #probably never will, but I can dream!

Thanks again to all of you (even Hamlett who is just in it for the money!

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## Tom C

You guys who keep building them...keep doing that so I can buy yet another mando that I will not make any money with.

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## Mario Proulx

I;m with Hans on this. Guitars and flat top mandolins are not in the same universe as an F style mandolin. I have stopped making F style mandolins, simply because I can build 4-5 guitars in the time it takes me to make one F style(I'm slower than most of you with the mandolins &lt;bg&gt :Wink: , so to be fair to myself, I'd have to charge the same as those 5 guitars for the one F style mando. Not gonna happen..., so I stopped making them. An A-5 mandolin can be done in about the same time as a guitar, for me.

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## Big Joe

Even in a "factory" setting, building mandolins is quite a bit different from building guitars. It still takes many hours to do the process. Often they are built in batches so you can do the same process on several and save a little time, but it is still very time consuming Especially if you do not do much with the CNC. The only advantage we may have is experience. We may have done some of the processes so often that we are faster than some. Our spray booths are also very nice and we have people to help with some of the more dreary tasks, like scraping binding. We have a lady who has done this for 20 years and enjoys doing that task. I would be willing to do that for about 4 minutes before wanting to shoot myself! In all, whether it is built in our shop or a smaller shop, it is VERY labor intensive and costly to build. We may have some help in saving small amounts of time by our process, but we also have substantially higher costs for rent, labor, etc. In all, hats off to each of the wonderful luthiers who visit the cafe. They deserve our appreciation no matter the model they make or whether it is our favorite. The work invested must be a work of love or you could not afford to do it.

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## sunburst

> ...scraping binding. We have a lady who has done this for 20 years and enjoys doing that task.


We gotta have her cloned!

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## Brad H

I'll second the cloning of the binding scraper lady, cause most of the time I'm happy working on mandos... till I've scraped binding for two weeks.

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## Jim Rowland

I'm fortunate to also have a lady who enjoys binding scraping...that is to say,she enjoys it more than shaking hands with Mr. Cat o'ninetails.
Jim

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## Rick Turner

So I'm seeing 120 to 300 to 400 hours for an F-5, right?  That's a hell of a spread, assuming quality of craft to be about the same.  Where do the extra hours go past 120?  Sorry, but the last time I built an archtop it came in at about 120 hours.  It's the mando-guitar on page 101 of String Letter Press' "Custom Guitars" book.  You can also see interior shots on Frank Ford's site.  Fully carved top and back, lots of lines of purfling, bound "F" holes, approximately mandola sized.  That 120 hours included making the bending form for a Fox bender and making the mold.  So it doesn't have a scroll....  I don't claim to be a speed demon luthier, but I also just don't see where the time goes after that 120 hours or so.   If you are focused and know how to work efficiently, you should be able to have a top and back rough carved in less than two days.  I had the afore mentioned archtop plates roughed in five hours, and I took another five or so in refining the shapes and graduations and doing the recurves.   My only "trick" was using a pin router for terrace carving the outside arch, and then flipping the plates over and rough carving the insides parallel to the outside using a ball end bit and a ball end pin on the pin router.  From there I hand carved and sanded.  But you could essentially do that on a high speed drill press or with a home-made pin router with a hinged arm with a router mounted in it.   

I guess I just don't like to suffer to be poor...I build instruments for a living and I want to do it well, but efficiently.  Hell, Stradivarius's shop cranked out a fiddle a week... Are violins harder or easier than F style mandos?  

By Mario's reconning here, an A mando is equal to a guitar.  But an F is equal to four or five guitars.  That means that the scroll and points cost three or four guitars.   That's just nuts.  Where's the value in those vestigal parts?  And why then doesn't an A-5 cost about 1/3 of an F-5? (1/4 to 1/5 the labor, close to same on parts).  Or do they?  Do you all lose your butts on F's and make money on A's?

I'm not just a luthier; I'm also a business man.  I have a production shop with seven employees.  I keep track of the money that goes into building these things; I have Bills of Materials with every screw and drop of glue accounted for.  I try to track the time as well as I can.  This stuff is important whether you work in a big factory like Joe does at Gibson or work in your garage.  I would say that some of you probably have no retirement plans, and at the rate you build instruments, you won't be able to afford to retire or support yourselves when you can't work any more.  What I see here is not a recipe for a happy old age for luthiers.   You need to get my forthcoming book to be titled, "Marrying Well for Luthiers."

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## Jim Hilburn

Rick, I'm currently building an octave thats the reduced L-5 design. While there's more to carve because of the increased size, it's basically pretty simple compared to an F-5. Seems easier than an A because there were no tight bends to make like at the neck joint area and you don't even have that pesky heel button to bind. This one doesn't have the bound F-holes or a cutaway but I've been there and done that. It's still apples and oranges.

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## Rick Turner

Could someone define the apples and oranges?  I'm trying to read between the lines here, and I think I'm seeing that some folks spend nearly two hundred hours extra on a mandolin because it's got a scroll on the body and a scroll on the peghead.  Is that right? At a low-ball shop rate of fifty bucks an hour, that's a ten grand couple of pieces of nothing but sculpture, right? And if you're not working in a real shop at fifty bucks an hour or a garage shop at thirty, then you did marry well!  Around here, finish carpenters get twenty to thirty bucks an hour...and that's with no shop to support.

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## martinedwards

Hobby vs carreer.

Pro builders simply cant afford to spend 400 hours on a mando.

I appreciate that there's a bigger market for mandos in the US than here in the UK, but I've seen guitars hanging in shops at $5,000 but never a mando at over $1000.

if it's your hobby, you can take all the time in the world.

It's my hobby and it's really cool if someone pays me for a guitar or mando I've made which will cover the parts for one (or maybe two) down the line, but as for earning enough to quit the day job, pay for premises, take a salary and fund a pension?

no chance.

but I do enjoy the hobby!!!

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## Hans

Sigh...

I love folks that tell me how long it should take me to do something... 
So glad you also know and are concerned about my retirement plan. #

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## Rick Turner

just trying to understand the economics here. after all, the title of the thread is mandolin building costs per hour...  and the economics don't add up to a living is what i'm seeing.

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## Hans

Bingo!

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## Bill Van Liere

However long it took Hans to build my Model 21 does not matter to me because it is worth every penny.

Hope you don't retire just yet Hans.

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## Big Joe

There are a lot of differences in the hours it can take to build a mandolin. The kind of mandolin, the exactness of the graduations, the equipment to build with, the experience, the kind of finish used, whether the f holes are bound or unbound, the amount of binding, the kinds of woods used, the types of adhesives used in the build, the determination to use lacquer or varnish, oil varnish or spirit varnish, the amount of french polish (if any) and how it is applied. These all affect the amount of time it takes to build a mandolin. If you are talking about a bare bones mandolin like the A9, it will take much less time than the Lawson with binding everywhere and the f holes bound. It even takes more time to build the MM with oil varnish and french polish. The DMM takes many more hours because of the distressing process. Everyone builds with different criteria and different purpose and that makes a difference in how long it takes to build. I can easily see a spread of time in building from 120 to 400 hours when you take into consideration all the above elements. Then the last factor is that some do not build for much more than the love of the art. I applaud them and their work. I also applaud those who do it as a business and I hope they make well in the process. I think many of our builders have underpriced the work they do becuase they are afraid to ask for more money. I think they could easily raise thier prices a bit and still sell all they can build. Unless they don't build a good one that is. Just my opinion.

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## Chris Baird

I think the point made so far has been that F-style mandolins aren't the most profitable way to use advanced wood working skills, but, for some, it pays off in immaterial ways. 

I live in a town where there is a significant workforce shortage and lots of new development. There are 4 cabinet shop owners willing to start me out at $25-30/hr. I just started doing a bit of cad/cam/cnc consulting for a small manufacturing company at $30/hr. The wages available to me are more than double what I'm making building mandolins. But, I am not inspired to work full-time on cabinets or computers. My passion is with mandolins and I'll take a significantly lower wage for work that I enjoy. 
 It is possible to make a living building mandolins (even F-styles) but its not easy when compared to other woodworking endeavors. I've worked out the time frame and pricing that I need to achieve to make a decent living, I'm not there yet but I'm quickly moving in the right direction. It is a good idea for anyone interested in being a professional luthier (or a professional anything) to work out a business plan and really understand what it will take to make things work. The numbers for a mandolin business are somewhat intimidating.

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## Jim Hilburn

For me I bought a rental house just outside Boulder in the early 80's and sold it last year. I'm going to make mandolins till that money's gone.
This is unfortunately too true a story. I knew the economics didn't add up when I got into this. I left behind $30/hour with bennies for this. I did however just renewed my state license and keep up my basic union dues just in case. But this was something I wanted to take a shot at for the last 30 years.
We were able to pay off the house and we have no kids, but health insurance kind of took over where the mortgage left off.
Don't look for any posts from me with a stack of mandolins ready to bind like Andrew M. or have a dozen ready to finish like Bill B.

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## Mario Proulx

Rick, I did say that when it comes to F styles, I'm slower than most. &lt;g&gt;

But that scroll and headstock really does add a ton of time, and for me, it takes a few tries to get them right, adding more and more time. An A style can be routed with regular binding equipment, all the way around in one pass. An F style is nearly all handwork. An A style's body bindings are one piece, all the way around. No jointing, except for the heel button, if you want to bind that part(A styles are also less traditional, and we can get away with less, or different, detailing)... No pre bending, not nothing... Scraping or masking takes minutes, not hours... Same goes for bending the rim set. Half as many blocks. No points. Then there's the headstock. No compound angles, no tiny little scroll, just a simple headstock... Carving isn't too different, but the A is symmetrical and the F isn't, and that scroll is finicky, slow work if you don't have a killer CNC....

In short, an A style mandolin is just as easy and simple as an archtop guitar, but scaled down. An F style is a whole 'nuther beast. To fully understand it, you need to build a few. 

Oh, and I always priced my A at 1/4 to 1/5 the cost of of my F....

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## sunburst

Add to Mario's list of time sinks built into the F style mando the simple fact that the scroll that you spent all that time on is sticking up there right in the way of the neck set, the fret work, the finish process, etc.
Only by building both, F and A, am I able to fully appreciate how much extra work and time the F presents.

FWIW, I built two F-5 style mandolins, together, about 15 years ago and kept accurate records of the time I spent on them. There was a time clock on the wall of the shop I was working in in those days, and I punched a time card whenever I would start to work on the mandolins, and punched out when I would stop working on them. When the two mandolins were done, I had about 180+ hours in them. That's about 90+ hours per. (One was sunburst, and one was blond.) I don't know exactly how long an F takes me now, but it's more than 90 hours for several reasons, not the least of which is I'm building better mandolins now, and they take more time.

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## markishandsome

No one tells an electrician they should take minimum wage and be proud to do their work. I think it's a shame that luthiers can't charge what their instruments are worth becasue they have to compete with factories. I know the factory folks aren't getting rich either but they can make a mandolin cheaper and faster than some dude in his basement. I don't know how or when or why prices for Gilchrists or Nuggets went through the roof, but it seems like very few folks like them are getting their dues.

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## Mike Buesseler

There is nothing really so unique about luthiers and the time/money variables they face. I'd consider luthiers more like artists than like craftsmen. That puts them in a category with other visual artists, musicians, actors...and so on. I'll bet less than 1% of all those artists make a "decent" living doing only the thing they love most--their art. Most have day jobs, a spouse who works, or some kind of endowment. The term "starving artist" is probably not that much of a metaphor.

I have the greatest respect for good artists, and certainly for the luthiers I have had the pleasure of 'getting to know' here at the Cafe. 

For those who think that their luthier is "not getting his dues," how about paying twice the asking price for your next mandolin? And, the reason any luthier is "afraid" to raise prices, is because he/she knows it won't sell at that price. 

We're all stuck in pretty much the same market.

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## Big Joe

markishandsome...You are wrong about the cost of building in a factory as opposed to a guy in his basement. We have FAR more expenses and it takes us about the same amount of time as a good small shop to build our mandolins. Many of the parts do not have any discount applied to them becuase you build x number in a years time. The cost is the cost for materials and then we have labor, rent, utilities, etc. that are far in excess of most small builders. I'm not complaining about it, but our cost is substantial. The guys who work here are doing it for the love of it also. Most of us could make better wages doing other things but we love what we do.

I have the pleasure of getting up every morning excited and cannot wait to get to work. Not everything I have to do is fun or always pleasant, but I get to work with the finest people on the earth and play with the finest instruments on the earth (we work on all brands and kinds of stringed instruments) and meet the greatest people. I get to do all this and then they actually pay me! What more could a guy ask for! I would like more money, but money is not the only reason to show up every morning and do a great job. Just my opinion on the last paragraph.

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## Dale Ludewig

FWIW, and no offense intended to anyone, I think it's dangerous to consider oneself an artist when making things. I think it's fine if other people want to consider a luthier, or anyone else, an artist. But when the person himself (herself) starts thinking too strongly of themself as an artiste, I think we're getting into dangerous territory, especially if one intends to make a living at it, or make a reasonable profit doing it. It's a business once you get past the first couple instruments and have serious aspirations. To think of yourself otherwise is kind of la-la land. I consider luthiers to be extremely good craftsmen and always striving to get a better product out of their shops. If other people want to consider what we do as art, fine. And that's not to say that I don't respect what I do. I do.

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## david blair

I remember an art teacher telling me once that an artist takes the time to notice subtle nuances of their creation. I can recall thinking I was finished with a step only to notice more after a break. I guess you start making better instruments after some time, and eventually become faster or notice even more areas for improvement. Two days to carve a top and back is to fast in my opinion.

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## David Newton

I've stayed out of this as best I could, but when you start talking about artists and such... I've been dabbling with building since 1974 and for some reason I've got in my head that I HAVE to build. Back then it was sort of a hippie cool thing to do, building. Now, seems I leave all the house chores and upkeep and go to the shop as much as I can. I do make money at it, my overhead is very low, but I have to work a day job. That doesn't bother me, as long as I have something, anything, hopefully a few, going in the shop at all times. I know you have to have money to live, my wife reminds me from time to time, but money isn't everything, and it sure doesn't satisfy the part of me that has to build. I think that is the part of this that we share with the artist, but I consider myself a craftsman.

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## SternART

&lt;&lt; I don't know how or when or why prices for Gilchrists or Nuggets went through the roof, 
but it seems like very few folks like them are getting their dues.&gt;&gt;

Yeah, but those guys have paid their dues! Their prices only exploded in the last 5 or 7 years
and they were working down lists where the purchase price was considerably lower. I don't care if 
you call a luthier a master-craftsman.....or an artist.....but there are a handful of very experienced 
luthiers, with decades of experience.......hundreds of instruments. That they can finally earn a decent
living based on their reputation from HARD work....for years...up the ladder of success, is great! I think others 
will get their "due" when it is earned. IMO the very very best at any craft, in any material, are ARTISTS!

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## Mike Buesseler

This thread seems to have a lot of us thinking about why we do what we do. I only said I thought luthiers were "more like artists than like craftsmen." By that I meant that most of you are self-employed, work alone, have no unions, etc. You place the risk of success or failure on your work alone--and the ability to sell it.  

I do think some of you are truly artists, and all of you are certainly highly skilled, specialized craftsmen. The most successful luthiers must certainly have to be good business people as well as talented. I'm not sure where people like Kemnitzer, Gilchrist, Dudenbostel, and a very few others fall in this mix. Talented, smart, and _lucky_ would be my guess. 

And speaking of luck, I'd say that anyone who can even "get by" while doing a job that you love, is VERY lucky.

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## Rick Turner

How many of you builders have kids...and health insurance...

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## Mario Proulx

What do kids and insurance have to do with how many hours it takes to build an instrument?

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## Rick Turner

Mario, if you don't know, then it's because A) you're Canadian and you have a national health insurance program there, and B) You're probably not paying for a kid's expenses.   In the US, private health insurance on a decent plan can cost a good $960.00 a month...that's what I've been paying for the past year...  And kids....  Well, the real point is that if you don't have much in the way of expenses, then you can afford to build F style mandolins!

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## Kent Barnes

I built my first F-style mandolin because I couldn't afford to buy one like I wanted. #I build the 2nd and 3rd because I thought that I could improve on the first, which I think I did. #My 4th is already spoken for, so the fact that I'm actually going to get paid for my work has given me a great deal of interest in this thread. #It is also very interesting to see the comments of the folks here that do this for a living. #I guess the answer might be (for me at least) that we all are doing this because it is a passion -- that there is a REAL feeling of accomplishment to see those blocks of wood turn into an instrument with our own hands, and to have someone else recognize that effort and actually want to reward us for that effort makes it even sweeter.
I have a very good job with benefits, but I still have the desire to go out in the garage and make mandolins. #Even if I never sold another, I think my house would someday be filled with many, many instruments, if for no other reason that it's what I want to do. #At some point, money isn't the object. 
Right now, I have no problem doing this for $5.71/hour. #

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## markishandsome

Professional artists (including luthiers if you wish) are businesspeople too. Painters sell paintings just like lutheirs sell instruments. Most artists I've met are pretty down-to-earth about their work.

Joe, I don't see how you can say that you don't have it any different from independent luthiers. As a corporation you must be paying all your workers at least minimum wage plus some sort of insurance and other benefits, with enough $$$ left over to take out full page ads in magazines and make some profit to boot otherwise you wouldn't have been in business for over 100 years.

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## Rick Turner

I would hope that most folks base their choice of luthiers on the results, not the angst.

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## Dale Ludewig

Arthur, I do not disagree that luthiers are artists. I just think it can be dangerous to think of yourself (not you specifically) as one, especially if you're trying to make a living or part on one thinking such. And yes, health insurance and all the other expenses add into the equation. Ultimately, you get paid for what comes out your shop, be it at home in the basement, or a full blown factory, and everything in between. I'm in between. I'm alone  right now at the shop. I have no employee. I wish I did. To find one that would meet my needs would be difficult.

Rick, I think your statement was right on the mark. I would bet that most luthiers on this board would agree to this: We try to do the best we can- produce the best product we can. What that might be is very individual. And we try to do it in a way that we can hopefully make some money doing it. If that's enough or not to make a living at it is something we all struggle with.

I'll say this. I don't know any builder that posts on this forum, individual or corporate (Hi Joe, Peter, etc.), that doesn't want to put out the best they can out of whatever facility they have, with whatever costs are involved, and with whatever method they use to produce their instrument. 

So we argue and such. I'll bet that every one of us wishes at some point that we'd made some decision differently as to how we approach our building process. Or marketing. Etc. And then again, maybe not. 

Many things to think about. Not just the builders.

I love this discussion.

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## Mario Proulx

Rick, I'm aware of your health insurance costs(we pay for ours, also, but we do it via obscene taxation...), and I am aware, also, of what kids can cost these days. But my question remains: how does that affect the time it takes to build an instrument or what we get for it? I mean, two guys working in a factory, side by side; one is single and lives with his parents, the other has 3 kids, a wife and mortgage. Both do the same job, for the same pay, right? Only difference is one has more disposable income left a month's end than the other, but both do the same job.

Why would we be different? Our lifestyle does not dictate what our instruments are and what they fetch. A least it shouldn't. If I decide tomorrow that I'd like to live on a big 'ol ranch and adopt children, my instruments won't go up in value....

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## Chris Baird

I've been involved with my town's arts council. The main thrust of my involvement has been to rid artists of the notion that they have to starve and that art is not valuable. Art is valuable and folks will pay good money for it. However, artists have to follow the same rules as everyone else. That means they have to understand what it takes to make money selling a particular product. An artist can make a living just the same as anyone else, they just have to understand that they are not exempt from the realities of business plans, efficient production, and marketing. 
 I have no hesitation considering myself or anyone involved in creative work an artist. What I wouldn't consider is that because I am an artist that I am entitled to make a living without engaging in sound business practices. 
 Here are my two kids. I support them by building mandolins. They aren't old enough to resent me for it yet.

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## David Newton

Here's my son Dylan, and here's what he thinks of my stinkin' mandolins...

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## David Newton

He's around here someplace.

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## Links

Chris:

I think you made some excellent points. Artists, traditionally, are not particularly good businessmen (or women), probably because the part of the brain that is used for creativity overloads the "business side". I should know, as I consider my occupation (Golf Course Architect) about 80% art and 20% science. I do not like the business side of it, but totally love the creative side of it. However, thank goodness I apprenticed for a gentleman who taught me how to "market" my services. The hardest thing I do is get jobs -  the easiest is the work. I know numerous other architects that may be much more talented than me that have a very difficult time getting jobs. Quite frankly, probably like mandolin builders, all of my work come by word of mouth and reputation. I have never spent a dime on advertising in trade magazines or other publications. I am sure the same is true for many of you.

The reason I consider you artists is because the "science" for the most part has been figured out. Sure there are some nuances and "trade secrets", but for the most part you all know the mechanics of how a mandolin is built. Your creativity shows in your inlay, use/matching of materials, coloring, finishing/finishes, flowing lines (tie-ins), and just plain craftsmanship.

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## Chris Baird

The science is actually not figured out. In fact I consider musical instrument acoustics a frontier of knowledge. I think that the aethetics is the more mundane part of musical instrument construction. It is tone and playability which captures my curiosity because it is mysterious and not well understood.

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## Rick Turner

Mario, living costs count because if you put in 300 hours to make a mandolin for which you can only charge, let's say $3,500.00, you're going to go broke. And by the way, if you sell through dealers, then if you make a $6,000.00 mandolin, you're going to get between $3,000.00 and $3,600.00 for it.  So my point is that I'm seeing unsustainable business models here being proudly promoted as artistry.  Starving artistry is what it looks like to me.  You yourself decided to drop out of the "F" game because you didn't find it to be a sustainable business.  So it has everything to do with the title of this thread...  It shouldn't cost more an hour to make an "F" mandolin than to make a Flatiron other than perhaps a slight bump for a higher skill level.  And what I'm seeing is that luthiers penalize themselves for having higher skills! The more time you put in, the less an hour you make?  Where the hell is that at? I think it's idiotic.

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## Chris Baird

If all you consider is how much money you make then, yes, it is idiotic.

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## Rick Turner

If you do not consider at all how much money you are making, you are either rich to begin with or you will be bankrupt and unable to make instruments in just a few years. Don't put what I am saying here into extremes I do not intend.  I see what I regard as some pretty adolescent romantic positions here which a few years in the trenches might change.  If you are an amateur at this...that is to say it just doesn't matter, then I don't think this discussion is about you.  However if you are trying ot make a living at mandolin building and you refuse to accept some basic economic realities, then you are just doomed. I've made my living at lutherie for about 29 of the past 37 years, and that missing 8 years was as a carpenter and cabinet maker.  I haven't done it by being an artiste, though I think I've made artistic contributions to the state of the art. Frankly, I feel sorry for any of you who are actually working in your own shops for $15.00 and hour...and I don't think you're doing your customers any great favors, either.

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## Mario Proulx

Whoa, this took a turn....

Who's crying poor?

All I was trying to say with my last point was that one's lifestyle or income needs doesn't dictate the value of one's work. Yes, everyone needs to understand their needs, and then look at what needs to be done to meet them. My decision to drop F style mandolins, an instrument -I- am not efficient enough at making, is a perfect example. 

BTW, I think the 300-350 hr mark is a tad high, too, by a factor of about 2....

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## Hans

This thread has not sat right with me because I have been doing taxes for the last 4 days...AARGH! Looks like I'll fall just a little short of being a billionaire again this year... 
Rick, I guess I've been a little strong (my apologies), but I have never been one to mince words. Don't know about the artistry stuff, I just consider myself a builder. 
I think in the mandolin business, you are cutting yourself quite short if you are not building F style mandolins. Mario also builds guitars, so that works for him. Whether that can be profitable for you is another question. As I have stated, I figure about 100-150 hours on an A style, depending on the trim. The F style runs between 200 and 250 for me, again depending on trim. I'm sure most of us would rather build "only A's", but that would be like not building dreadnaughts in the guitar business. All builder's mandolins are not created equal either. You can put 200 hours into an instrument and bring it to one level of craftsmanship, or add another 50 hours and bring it to another level. Each builder decides how far to take that level.
Now, I don't think anyone building professionally is nuts enough to spend 300 hours on a mandolin and sell it for $3500. Might as well put a gun to your head. Very few mandolin builders are going to sell directly to dealers either. We can't afford the 40-50% hit. I can barely take the 20-25% hit for consignment when I use it. 
I too have made my living by building instruments most of my life, and the "missing years" (disco) were also spent as a cabinetmaker. I haven't done it by being and artist either, rather by being a competent craftsman. My business sense is not the greatest, but I do know that paying the bills, keeping my wife and me fed and insured (won't even begin to go into that, but if you think $900/month is steep...) is a priority. I don't think anyone here is "crying poor", but we're not "laughing rich" either. We are justifying our existence. Whether my business is sustainable for the rest of my life, I don't know, just hoping to make it till retirement, so I can continue making them till I croak.
To put it bluntly, building mandolins is not the easiest or healthiest #profession in the world or the most profitable. In the end, I don't think you can put it on a profit level alone. Sheer satisfaction is probably the biggest motive to continue...handing someone their new instrument has to be one of the greatist joys in life. #

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## Jim Hilburn

Rick, the guys here who have the work ethic are going to do just fine. I'd use Andrew Mowry as a prime example. About every 2 months he turns up with a batch of 5 beautiful instruments and has gained quite a following. He's clearly putting in the hours and should do well.
 For me this is more of a bridge to retirement. Some others are retired or have a wife with a good job. There are some who were building when I first started frequenting the Cafe who realized they couldn't sustain a good lifestyle and dropped out. Others are gearing up for a serious assault on the market.
It will all sort itself out in time.
To me the bigger question is when is the market fully saturated.

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## sunburst

> I don't think anyone here is "crying poor", but we're not "laughing rich" either.


...

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## cgwilsonjr

I'm not a builder but I certainly appreciate and value the quality of a great mandolin. I have one of Hans' mandolins (L21V) that I will treasure until I die and then I will leave it behind for my daughter to play. There has to be immense satisfaction in building something with so much quality that other people will buy it, love it, and pass it on to the next generation. Cheers, Chuck

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## Rick Turner

Would some of you please get out the calculators?

Jim, if a guy puts in 50 hour weeks and comes up with five mandolins every two months, then he's got about 80 hours into each mandolin.  That isn't 100 hours, nor is it 200 to 250.  So I'm still seeing figures all over the map here, and I can't make sense out of it.  I think there's a major apples vs. oranges thing going on and that nobody has adequately anwered the basic question of how much an hour an F mandolin is worth.  Why is Mowry able to make a mandolin in what I see here as a record short amount of time?  Is it a lesser piece than, say, Hans' mandolin with three times the number of hours into it?  Or is Mowry working 80 weeks?  The math isn't cutting it here.

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## Rick Turner

That should say "80 hour weeks."

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## Jim Hilburn

I should let Andrew speak for himself. I have not tracked his hours. I don't even track mine. 
 The point is he posts photo's of his work and he is quite a bit more prolific than myself. For all I know he is putting in 80 hours.

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## thistle3585

I look at these discussions, where numbers are thrown out that don't really add up, in one of two ways. Either people are intentionally giving misleading information because they simply don't want people to know about their business or they truly don't know how long, or how much it costs them to do business, so they are guessing. Personally, I don't care one way or another as long as you don't complain, and I haven't heard anyone do so, about a career that you chose, but don't be surprised when someone calls you on it when you make that information public.

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## Links

Chris:

I think you misunderstood me, or more likely I did not phrase or explain it correctly. #I should have said the "mechanics" of building a mandolin have pretty much been established (as opposed to the word "science"). #But then again, I am not discounting those luthiers that experiment with this part of it either. #I am intimately familiar with the "search" for "tone and playability" by luthiers, but what you might consider mundane (and it probably is for you), may be what attracts a potential buyer to your instrument. #If two instruments sound basically the same, which one is the consumer going to choose?

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## Hans

I don't understand the need to get out the calculators and reduce this all to a cost/hour for all builders. That would imply that we all must do things the same way, all take exactly the same amount of time to do processes, and that our finished products are all the same quality. I simililarly don't understand the dogged need to come up with a hard figure. It takes one person X hours to make an F5. It takes another person Y hours to make an F5. So? Mandolin building is not something that gets spit out of a computer. 
Let me put it this way...you can go to the "Big Box Store" and buy kitchen cabinets or you can go to an independent shop and buy from a small cabinetmaker or get bids from several. Does it take the same amout of time for each to build those cabinets? Is the cost/hour the same? Is the quality all the same? I doubt it.

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## Rick Turner

This thread is entitled, "Mandolin Building Costs per Hour." Whet's not to understand about the need to get out a calculator to enter into this discussion? This thread is about money, not art.  If you want it to be about art, go start another thread.  If you don't want a hard figure, then pay no attention to this discussion.  On the other hand, if you do participate then please come to this with real figures.  This is about the business of luthierie, and I think that it's a valid discussion.  It clearly pushes a lot of peoples' buttons...  "Ewww, I don't want to have to look at reality!"  But we're in business, and we deserve to be successful.  You don't get successful without covering the financial aspect.

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## Mario Proulx

*I don't understand the need to get out the calculators and reduce this all to a cost/hour for all builders.*

Exactly. Every time I run into a relative, and we play 'catch up', they always ask how many hours I put int my work. I just shrug and say however many it takes. I tend to look at it as a farmer looks at his work, and that is to just do it. Don't count the hours, it'll only discourage you..... 

Listen, I've made budgets, and I've looked a what I need to live on, and all that jazz. But in the end, I simply have to work, and force things to balance if they don't. If I need a raise, I head back out, work harder and get an extra guitar or mandolin out the door.... My grandparents were farmers, with just a small farm. Raw food prices are, more or less, fixed by the governments. If they needed more money, they simply took-in more cattle the next year, or ployed an empty field or unused corner of one and planted a few extra rows of potatoes. They were never rich, but in my eyes, they did well for themselves. Can't be that bad of a business model, and it's worked for me, 10 years running. I just sent off my tax returns this Monday. Not the most impressive return, but it is a decent, middle class income, and about what I'd earn in a mill of some type. But this is so much nicer....

As for hard figures, all I need to do is divide my year's income by 2080, which is an average working man's yearly hours.

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## Big Joe

Rick...maybe they clearly know what it takes them but really don't wish to discuss the bottom lines on a public forum. I certainly would not. I seriously doubt it takes all of them the same time either. If they have been around for awhile they understand and know what it cost them to build each instrument and what they have to get for them to stay in business. Those with established reputations that are selling everything they can build may be charging too little for their product. That is a decision they must make. Still, I am quite confident guys like Hans or Dale have a very clear knowledge of what it cost to build each product they make. Again, there is a world of difference in knowing and telling on a public forum.

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## Jim Hilburn

I think I can make $20-25/hour at this. The number of hours per week is another story altogether.
How I get by on it is my business.

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## Hans

Well put Mario and Joe...Rick, I believe I metioned some figures on page one based on my experience. I'll post my tax return next week so that you can delve into my business. #

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## thistle3585

Mario's comments reminds me of the state of the funeral industry up until the late eighties. The price of a funeral was based on the number of funerals performed the previous year divided into the annual sales. It was never really based on any hard numbers, but just knowing that they needed to do X amount of funerals to break even. If you wanted to make money you did more funerals.

Anyhow, in the late eighties there was a huge shift in how funeral directors approached their businesses, and I wont go into that, but what resulted was that the status of the funeral director shifted from being a tradesman to a professional. 

My point is that I wonder if the modern day luthier is beginning to make that same transition of being recognized as a tradesman/craftsman to that of a professional or businessman. Even within the funeral industry itself there was a lot of dissension among its members as the tradesman admonished the "professional" funeral directors for offering services and products that were untraditional. 

Just a rambling thought.

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## Tom C

Quote from Hans-page 1
"...an $8000 F style instrument built to the highest standards works out to about 28 bucks an hour GROSS. If you price that same instrument at $5000, that works out to 18 bucks. Now you might feel that 28 or 18 bucks an hour is a lot of scratch to be making, but now take out all the overhead and insurance and it works out to more like 6-12 bucks, and that's hands on time."

The conundrum here is that while $28 is not a large amount of money, $7000 or $8000 is a lot for a mando for the average person -Not that every average person has to have a top-of-the-line mando. A top luthier should not sell themselves short either.

Can't you guys work twice as quick and sell them for 1/2 the price?

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## sgarrity

What Tom just said!!! Sums it up perfectly IMHO.

Shaun

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## Links

Quote "Thanks guys for reminding all of these wonderfully talented gentlemen (and ladies) that they are charging way to little for their works of art!" 

Rick:

I aplogize. I was just really trying to compliment our many fine luthier forum members, whom I am sure are underpaid for their immense talent. I'll try and keep on topic.

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## Darryl Wolfe

I get paid alot to read this stuff  

and then make parts in my spare time for probably $8 hr. I think I'll get $0.50 hr for the mandos I have started. I will finish them some day though

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## Hans

Well, here's a point. Some folks want a Mercedes at VW prices. Now most builders I know including me build many trim levels. I'm not going to list my prices, but I do make reasonably priced instruments that sound every bit as good as the most expensive. They just aren't as fancy. So, we can give you twice as quick, but you get the VW. Every bit as good as it drives down the road the same.

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## buddyellis

Well I must say that if people don't want to discuss their hourly rate on a public board, that is certainly their business (and I wouldn't think of asking them that info anyway), but why be commenting on a topic that is "Mandolin building cost per hour" and then complaining about discussing it  

This makes no sense to me!

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## mingusb1

Anytime I hear somebody comment/complain about how good mandolins are so expensive I tell them one thing:

I don't think they are getting rich by it.

Thanks for the enlightening discussion.

Z

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## sunburst

> Can't you guys work twice as quick and sell them for 1/2 the price?


I have a two year old mandolin: A-style, simple binding, simple finish, few frills, top notch woods, sound, and playability.
When I've tried to sell it for far less than half the price of one of my F-styles, it hasn't sold. I've sold three F-5 style mandolins a fancy varnished A, and taken more orders while that one - the one that I built faster and asked less money for - sits around the shop.

It's like Hans says, lots of people want the Mercedes at the VW price. And since, after all, I'm only in this for the money, if they want the Mercedes, I'll make the Mercedes, but I'll charge for it too.

When you build a mandolin (or anything), you have to work to some level of fit & finish, cosmetics, cleanness, whatever you want to call it, and finally say to yourself "that's good enough". Perfect doesn't exist. You can't get there, there is no cosmetically perfect mandolin. Where one draws the line is up to the individual. Some of that decision has to do with talent and skill, and some of it is a conscious decision on the part of the maker. Where that line is drawn; that "good enough" line; will have an effect on the hours spent on the instrument. There is a "point of diminishing return" beyond which cosmetic improvement comes at the expense of much more time spent. That's where we start to loose money; striving for that "flawless craftsmanship" that buyers seem to love to tout about their favorite builders. If you want "flawless craftsmanship", I think you had better be prepared to pay for it. If you want "less expensive" from a builder who is striving for "flawless craftsmanship", better be prepared to settle for an A-style mandolin. Some builders are better prepared, philosophically, to compromise their craftsmanship, to build to a lower standard than they are capable, to lower the "good enough" line than others are. Personally, I can't do it. I feel I have to build to my highest standards every time. I can build as simply adorned an instrument as you want, but I can't cut corners to speed up and sell for less. (If I truly was only in this for the money, that would be the way to make more, BTW.)

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## Jerry Byers

Is it an oval A?

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## Rick Turner

John, very well put and directly to the point.  One of the things I always liked about the less expensive models of vintage Martin guitars is that they are just as well made as the 45s and such.  Less ornamentation, a "lesser" grade of wood, but with excellent craftsmanship.  That makes for a good honest less expensive instrument.

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## Dale Ludewig

Rick, you just beat me to it. John, well said. Nothing leaves my shop unless it meets my standards. I make different models, but they are all built to my standards, quality level, whatever someone wants to call it. At least as far as I can tell. 

As far as hourly rate goes, which I guess was the original topic, we've veered far and wide. Hourly rate means nothing in a sense, in my book. Every builder has to charge what they need to, hourly, for their work. Some people take longer and do things differently than others. So what? Ultimately the builder deals with a customer and the product plus the interaction between customer and builder can make or break a deal. Yes, you can like the product but if you don't trust the builder to stand behind it, run away. If you like the builder but the product isn't so good, so to speak, you're not likely to lay down your money.

It's business. And remember, we're only talking at this time about buying directly from the luthier. Actually, I think this is more about luthiers talking about the world they live in. I'd love it if Lynn would chime in here. The resale/ used market hasn't been discussed and should probably be another thread. But it is related.

Hourly rate? We've beaten it to death. Every builder has their own overhead expenses, and all such things. Aspirations. Name recognition. Determination to make it, by God. Is this a hobby or a livelihood, or at least part of one? Do you make a quality instrument?

I'll shut up now.

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## Dale Ludewig

Oh, I'm not quite done I guess. buddyellis, I don't think I've seen anyone complain about discussing this. They've only mentioned that it's hard to define "how" to talk about it. There's a lot of variables involved. No offense intended, but that's how I see this discussion.

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## buddyellis

Oh I agree there are different means of doing things and many, many different variables. Bottom line, however, as rick pointed out, it CAN most defiantly be broken down to 'the bottom line' average hourly cost. Many builders might not give a #$$& about that number. Thats fine. Just don't imply those that are interested in determining the average 'build time' are asking to see your income tax statement to derive YOUR costs, because we aren't.  Some of us are simply more analytical than others and like to break things down into 'hard cold facts'.

Most likely, for many builders, that number must be high enough, or they wouldn't continue doing this. For neophyte builders like myself, who are happy to even make a few bucks (i.e something over our materials cost ) out of this maddening addiction, another job is in order -- at least for the time being. For still others, such as say the Regal line, the numbers simply were not working and they had to close up shop. I think this is what Rick was getting at. We all should, from time to time, examine the 'cold facts' and see if our business model is functioning.   


I realize the time is somewhat variable in a build. You get half way into a top, and cut into that pitchy patch, and your heart falls. Been there. Done that. It sucks. It is built in, somewhat, to your build costs, or should be.

At least we're not pipe builders . I was watching a show (I think another 'How its made') the other day and they build into their cost a failure rate of something like 70% because the preferred wood is that finicky. At least spruce isn't that bad (though some of that really quilted maple may be)!
Dale: no offense taken or meant btw -- I appreciate the candor and openness of the builders on here.

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## Rick Turner

I suspect that some folks don't really want to know how little they're making an hour.  It's a scary number to be avoided, particularly when talking to a spouse!

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## Steve Hinde

My wife KNOWS every penny I've put into this. Maybe I'll have to show her how to scrape binding. That will keep her mind off of it. Back to my day job. Have to pay the bills.

Steve

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## Links

John (Sunburst) - you made some great points. Although pleasing your customers (whether it is a VW or a Mercedes) is very important, nothing leaves you shop unless it pleases you. To me, that is a sign of a real professional.

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## mandolooter

A happy customer makes me happy...a good job by me is just part of my self-imposed "duty". Im a craftsman, its my job and pride is my motivator. Im self employed and my own boss at least 35% of the time and I smile a lot the other 65%. Im not rich and I don't build mandolins but I know there's more to a job than $$$. After 35 years in the work-force I'll decide whats right and wrong for me and now read what Jim said at 10:57. No one here needs criticized for offering up a full 100% of their effort, if ya think they got it wrong maybe a undercover email with some helpful hints instead would be a better use of this thread. OK lecture over, sorry but i had a raw nerve exposed there for a second.

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## mingusb1

This thread is just itchin for a wacky Bussman post!! Maybe a picture showing finished mandolins growing from a magic tree in Old Wave hollow?!

Z

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## Big Joe

Bill was in our shop just a few minutes ago. He is on the road and probably has not seen this thread. It was a joy to meet Bill and have him visit our facility. A top notch guy for sure!

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## labraid

My first view of this topic, and all I have in one post. I say counting hours is time away from the bench. Of all the things a small builder is: craftsperson, customer relations manager, webmaster, supply chain manager, dreamweaver, etc. Add accountant to the mix and we are the jack of all trades. But I say most of us dislike accountant work as much as we dislike the jobs most of us left to pursue this work. Some of us are happy to scrape by if just we can scrape some wood each day...
The way I see this myself, distilled, it's like a marriage. I'm in love, and I don't really want to remind my spouse how many roses I've given her... love each other in sickness and in health = I'm gonna be in the shop rich or poor to pursue this. Renumeration is in liberty, lifestyle, seeing people jamming on an instrument they really dig. When we'll lie on our deathbed one day, we're not going to remember the dollars.. 
I'm no religious scholar, but didn't Jesus say something like, "chill out, most holy dudes, don't worry about your bread, don't the birds get all they need?"

Brian "$5 is about right sometimes" Dean

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## delsbrother

Well, that was... um... unhelpful.

So I need to be able to walk on water to make a living making mandolins now?

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## Rick Turner

I think that hiding behind an artistic temperament so as not to look at money is incredibly immature. "I'm such an artist that money doesn't matter!" Bull pucks...

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## Phil Jolly

Saying that "I don't do it for the money" and actually keeping track of the money are not mutually exclusive, as far as I can tell

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## delsbrother

> Saying that "I don't do it for the money" and actually keeping track of the money are not mutually exclusive, as far as I can tell #


*Yes!* And because of this, it seems counter productive to post to a thread titled "Mandolin building cost per hour" with such a platitude. I don't know how to say this any plainer - if you enjoy what you're doing and don't care how much money you make, fine. But as someone contemplating doing this (even as a hobby) it would be useful to know how efficient one had to be to make a living from lutherie.

Judging from the (understandably guarded) responses so far, to survive you either have to be independently wealthy to start with or have a day job. This does not exactly match the idyllic picture of Geppetto in his workshop (or maybe it does...). 

Does anyone know how the lutherie schools such as Red Wing or Roberto-Venn approach this topic?

BTW, Rick doesn't need a pinhead like me defending him, but if mandoplucker's trying to imply Rick Turner is unqualified to remark on the career of lutherie, that is laughable.

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## Bill Snyder

> Does anyone know how the lutherie schools such as Red Wing or Roberto-Venn approach this topic?


I don't know but I suspect that most of their students build flat top guitars. As has been mentioned quality flat top guitars (and mandolins) don't take near the man hours quality carved top/back mandolins do. Then there is also repair work which I believe is covered in the schools mentioned.
If you want to make much money (not sure of the definition of much) in lutherie I suspect that you need to own a shop with others working for you. It does not mean that you cannot build and design instruments, just that you need others working for you because the numbers probably do not add up to much money if you are a one man shop.

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## sunburst

Very industrious people can do pretty well in a well organized one man shop, eg. Bob Benedetto, John Monteleone, Lynn Dudenbostell, (That's why it's so hard to get him to pull himself away long enough to pose for lawn sculpture) and others.

How efficient do you have to be to make a living? As efficient as you can be. 
Some people can work batches of 12 and do OK. I start to feel like an assembly line worker if I do three at a time. I'll compromise my efficiency by working on no more than two at a time in order to enjoy what I do more, but when I'm working, I need to be as efficient as I can. What I'm saying is; I can't be as efficient as some others, and there are those who can't be as efficient as I can be, but we all need to be as efficient as we can. Also, what I'm saying is; there's no absolute answer to the question "how efficient do you have to be?". It comes down to the individual and what he/she wants out of life.

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## labraid

Hmmm. So if someone is to think against the grain and state his views, he's to be blasted? Please, then, if that's your gentle expression of free speech, go ahead. I've been an outcast for my free-thinking ways since I can remember. Tell you all the truth, I feel like an alien here and most other places. But I'm going to continue to do my thing despite anyone who has only negativity to spout. I do prefer naivety to hardness, I prefer honesty to hiding behind a mask of social one-upmanship, and I've found a few other people in this world who agree with those principles; unlike many others who fit right in and have innumerable people to stand up for them.. Bull pucks to that, my friends, for knocking anyone who thinks outside the box. Cause I'm a reasonable guy, and if the Jones' took a second to think about some of my thoughts before jumping right to conclusions and spitting on them, they might find something good in them. 
I stated my views, none of them were personal against anyone. And the last time I did step on any toes, re: the CNC discussion which some of you are still disgruntled about evidently, and which I still feel just as strongly about, you'll find a public apology there despite it all. 
You want to know how little I care about money, Rick? I put my business on the line to state my opinions in mandolin form, and in verbal form as well. Have anything negative to say about that more? Don't do it here. I'm a real person, not a jumble of text lines. 514-524-8870.
I do keep records because the government asks me to.
In Denmark I think it is, tax records are public, and they publish them in the newspaper each year listed by social number. 
In 2004 I brought in $14,495, and had $9,724 in expenses
In 2005, $21,604 in revenue and $17,725 in expenses.
Last year, $21,039 in revenue and $9,448 in expenses.
Those numbers might as well be hairs on my arm for all I care. But I'll let ya'll do the math, I work 50-60 hour weeks.

Despite that some of you can't accept me, I'll continue to smile down the street like a dummy, and I'll still shake anyone's hand that offers it in friendship. Call me crazy.

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## Rick Turner

I co-own and run a production shop with seven hands on employees making about 30 instruments a month. They range from ukes to acoustic-electric to solid body to pure acoustic guitars.  We are slightly profitible paying wages at least equivalent to any other instrument shop our size and offering health insurance, vacation days, etc. What we build is not really important here in this discussion as the rules of economics don't change for scroll binding top carvers vs. all the stuff I do. We're all luthiers and yes, I'm a pro and have been so for decades. The only difference here may be that I have had a lot more employees and run larger shops than most of you have.  I've also done the small shop thing.

The subject of money, difficult as it is for some of you to face, is important, and if it isn't then you're probably either not going to make it in this business or you have other sources of income...about which you should care and to which you must pay attention.  I don't care if it's an inheritance, a wife or husband who brings in your dinner money, or whether you have a "real job", you must be having to pay attention to your income somehow or another. I have to say that I know more than one luthier who hides the fact that he was subsidised in the beginning of his career by an inheritance or who has a wife who makes the big bucks and has the health insurance through work. If that's the case, then fine, but you shouldn't be pretending that you're making it in the real world as a pro luthier, you're a subsidized luthier. 

But if your sole source of income is your lutherie skill, then you damned well better pay attention to the money aspect of that or risk disaster.  Are you paying for health insurance...or are you an artist and that doesn't matter?  Can you take vacations or would you rather work for years without a break and then burn out?  Can you support a kid, or are there none planned in your life? What are you going to do when you're 70 years old? These are issues that are unfortunately real, and so when a question comes up re. how efficient you are, it bears examination in detail, not in denial.

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## otterly2k

Rick-- I appreciate your experience and your emphasis on pragmatics. However, it seems to me that you are unwilling to accept that other people may have values that are different from your own and that these values can be as valuable to them as your values are to you. Reducing them to "immature" and "in denial" is as insulting and unfair (imho) as it would be to reduce you and your motivations to "money grubbing sell-out". 

Some people live in places that have universal access to health care (like most civilized nations). Not everyone takes vacations... whether or not they would choose to. Not everyone has (or wants) children. There are ways of living simply and using/spending less. There are alternative economies in some communities. 

There are many different (and imo) valid ways of setting priorities. If someone is poor but is getting by and happy doing what they are doing, is that person foolish for not being more commercially ambitious and socking away money for retirement? Possibly. If someone is working in a way or at a job they hate in order to save for retirement when they could be enjoying their life more in the here and now, is that person foolish? Possibly. Some value financial security. Some are willing to risk that for other things they value. Why is it necessary to insist that those who don't share your values are misguided? 

truly, I understand your perspective, and may agree with some of your points. But I don't understand the need to put down people who don't share your way of thinking.
KE

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## Rick Turner

Once again, the subject of this thread is MONEY. I see a lot of dancing around the subject as though it were unseemly to get down and discuss the subject.  I also have been in this biz long enough to know more than a few poor luthiers who, after ten years of "happy" poverty realized that their lives were going nowhere, and that this happiness came at such a price that it dwindled to a memory.  I happen to think that a smart hustling luthier can make a decent living at this craft, even making scroll carved Gibson copies...which is what a lot of this discussion seems to be about. And if you're not making a decent hourly wage at this, then maybe, just maybe you should learn to work more efficiently OR you should have the balls to charge more and make what you are worth. What I'm seeing from some people is coming off a bit too much like aw-shucks low self-esteem or the self-proclaimed nobility of poverty.  Both are pretty middle class white boy stuff.

Oh, did I say I had opinions about all this?  

Hey, I'm not rich or anything like it, and I do work too many hours for what I make for a living.  I'm at about $16.00 an hour these days for between a 50 and 60 hour week.  I do have equity in the business, and that equity is constantly growing. I make payroll every week as well, and I help support an 11 year old kid who is wonderful, and I did that for three other kids.  I do and did all that by paying attention to the subject of this thread...and rather than deny that money is important, I am willing to admit that it is.  

If I wanted to make real money, though, I'd buy Loars and sell them...

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## Jerry Haynes

Without reading all the other 137 post, I'll just say...
 .........PRICELESS

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## delsbrother

> Very industrious people can do pretty well in a well organized one man shop, eg. Bob Benedetto, John Monteleone, Lynn Dudenbostell, (That's why it's so hard to get him to pull himself away long enough to pose for lawn sculpture) and others.
> 
> How efficient do you have to be to make a living? As efficient as you can be. 
> Some people can work batches of 12 and do OK. I start to feel like an assembly line worker if I do three at a time. I'll compromise my efficiency by working on no more than two at a time in order to enjoy what I do more, but when I'm working, I need to be as efficient as I can.


Thanks - I understand everyone is different and wants different things out of life. I realize there are no hard and fast answers to these questions; what is helpful is to see a range of responses as well as work habits (as you point out in your post).

I don't see anyone "slamming" anyone in these posts. Nor do I see anyone trying to restrict anyone else's free speech rights (PLEASE!). What I do see is Rick desperately trying to stay on topic, which I appreciate.

Re: the successful one man shops

When you speak of people like Monteleone et. al, how many hours do you think they toiled away "paying their dues" for very little money? (I'm asking, not trying to make a point) 

I ask because they seem to be the ideal most luthiers are striving for (i.e. mature career = big $$/instrument, reputation, wait lists). I also wonder if anyone could afford to follow their career path - TODAY. 

Also, did any of you learn by being another luthier's apprentice? If so, do you work the same way as s/he did, or do you manage your time differently?

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## otterly2k

money is nothing but a marker of value. used to exchange for other things, goods and services, time and skills, and necessities of life that are valued by the buyer. 

mando builders make different choices about how to do their work based on many factors -- including their expenses, needs, standards, priorities, values, and other resources (including time) - choices that effect efficiency and the ultimate cost of their mandos per hour (the original question).

It all seems on topic to me.

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## Chris Baird

A builder must be able to support their activity somehow. If a builder doesn't make enough money to support thier own activity then they will by necessity have to quit and take something else up. So, to some degree money and finances have to make some minimal qualification. That minimal qualification will be different for everyone based on the lifestyle they feel compelled to live. However, it has to be enough to survive. After that, each builder can choose for themselves how much beyond survival they need to be happy. 
 #
I think that most musical instrument builders could be making more money doing something else. So, to some degree we are all giving up income for the love of building musical instruments.

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## sunburst

> Are you paying for health insurance...or are you an artist and that doesn't matter?
> 
>   Yes, and no. 
>   I'm paying for health insurance, but I 
>   don't have enough. I'm hoping to be able to afford more
>   soon.
>   Perhaps I'm an artist, in some ways and in some things,
>   but that doesn't preclude insurance mattering, if it 
>   turns out I need it.
> ...


These are not things I haven't thought about, so there are some specifics.

Karen, I think you've hit the nail pretty much on the head with your assessment of the situation, and likewise, Chris.

As for Monteleone (and others in similar situations), I'm sure he toiled away for quite a few years at a moderate income level, and when you get right down to it, even at his level of success, his income looks pretty moderate compared to the successful people in many other careers.

As for me, personally, no I have never been an apprentice, and I've never had any real formal training in this field. Formal training wasn't easily had when many of us started building. I've learned what I've learned by reading, observing, asking questions, attending workshops, experimenting, working for an instrument manufacturer, and re-inventing quite a few wheels. I still learn all I can, and I'm not sure that I'm even slowing down very much when it comes to learning. There's a lot to know...

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## delsbrother

> It all seems on topic to me.


You _want_ this thread to be about VALUES and how they affect efficiency. This thread is (supposed to be) about how efficiency affects VALUE.

Hey, if I've learned anything from this, it's that I'm not meant to be a professional luthier. And that's probably the best for all concerned. #

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## Big Joe

I'm not sure whey Rick insists everyone works or lives by his values. Not everyone has the same motivation for building as others. Some may not be in the same financial situation and may have decided to work for what they do for reasons altogether different from others. I don't think insisting others have the same standards of business or economics as another is beneficial. I think it actually gives a view of the industry that shows that each builder has a different motivation and each person has a different interest in the work they do. That is part of the mystique of the mandolin for me. I have to work for the paycheck and when I get to where I don't have to, I will likely start doing so because I like to. You seem clearly to state profit is your first priority and there is nothing wrong with that. There is likewise nothing wrong with others having other priorities. Whether they may large dollars or chump change is a decision each builder makes. I think most work way too cheap, but that is only my opinion and I am glad they work by their own plans and not mine. Just my opinions.

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## labraid

Awesome comments, Joe. And thanks also to those who wrote with words of support. Some feel threatened by those who live on ideals that challenge the very basis of their footing. Money pays rent, but so does a big enough bag of homegrown carrots... if your banker wants fresh produce, or a shiny new mandolin. That's my ideal. Community well knit.

Did I mention I'll trade my next mando for a vintage pedal steel? (HINT )

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## sunburst

Hey, I traded a fret job for a re-built molar!

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## otterly2k

> You want this thread to be about VALUES and how they affect efficiency. This thread is (supposed to be) about how efficiency affects VALUE.


I just think these are intertwined issues.

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## Links

Sunburst (John) - Welcome to the "crown a month program"! I wish I could trade a fret job for it (them)!

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## delsbrother

> Hey, I traded a fret job for a re-built molar!


Yuck! Is there really a market for other people's teeth?

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## Mike Buesseler

I think so, too, Karen. Very intertwined. 

And, bartering is fun, sometimes, no question. But, it requires something called a 'coincidence of wants' and that can be a very costly problem...

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## delsbrother

> Originally Posted by  
> 
> You want this thread to be about VALUES and how they affect efficiency. This thread is (supposed to be) about how efficiency affects VALUE.
> 
> 
> I just think these are intertwined issues.


Sorry, but IMO that's a cop out. What happened here is what I consider to be a successful thread hijack. We could have been discussing issues about production efficiency (i.e. improving it). People instead took it as a personal attack on their lifestyle. It would have been very useful to know how long it took established luthiers to build a mandolin (though I doubt anyone could beat Rick's 10 hour uke). Especially useful to someone just starting out (to see some kind of industry standard or average), or to someone contemplating a career change (as I am). 

And yet we had to go on and on about how Rick is such a meanie and can't let people live how they want to live, how it doesn't matter how much you make because you love your work, and how there are so many factors that affect the amount of time spent*, etc. At the end of the day, that discussion doesn't help anybody, and this thread now sounds more like a daily affirmation. Yay luthiers! 

* Since we're talking about a RATIO (cost/hr) those variables should all average out in the end. If they don't, WHY? If it takes so long because of X, why don't they raise their price? If they can't raise their price because market pressures, why don't they think twice about X? These things would be interesting to discuss. "I don't do it for the money" does not create discussion, it shuts down discussion. It just invites a lot of "yeah, me too" or in my case, "Can we please stay on topic?"

NOW TAKE THIS THREAD TO CUBA AND NOBODY GETS HURT!

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## Rick Turner

Joe, I do not insist that anyone live by my values.  All I suggest is that we have a discussion with a level playing field and without some folks who do not depend on lutherie for a living suggesting that their moral status is higher because they spend more time per instrument.  Joe, you work in a corporate environment...the same one I used to work in.  Things are different for you than they are for just about anyone else here...if for no other reason than you get to put the Gibson name on your work.  But you also don't get to spend 200 to 300 hours on a typical F-5.  If you did, I suspect than HJ would fire you.  I just think that in a conversation like this that everybody should be clear as to who is actually making a living at this and who isn't.  And it gets back to that hourly wage thing where it all started that still seems to make a lot of folks uneasy. I'm asking for full disclosure of circumstance as I think that is at the core of having this discussion.  Hell, I'd love to spend two or three hundred hours building an instrument...and get paid properly for it. Who wouldn't?

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## steve V. johnson

Great thread, all, thanks very much.

The conventions of my field were easier... recording studios traditionally are a service business that doesn't sell -service-, but -time-, by the hour. &lt;GGG&gt; Since I've worked for myself in that trade I've found that there are other, better ways for me to work, and many of the same factors and overhead costs are similar to those of mando-luthiers. You have my respect and gratitude.

I don't really see Rick Turner's intensity and insistence in talking about quantified information, and Brian Dean's approach to his work and compensation as being at odds. In fact, Brian actually shared very explicit detail.  The dedication of each of these skilled and talented individuals is clear and outline the breadth of the field.  And, I really enjoy the instruments of both of them (et al).

I also enjoyed Chris Baird's writing about 'arts' organizations.  I have had similar experiences, and I find that 'arts' organizations often perpetuate the myth of artists' dependence on indirect funding, grantsmanship and such, and do no one any favors by failing to teach the skills necessary to survive and succeed in the marketplace.  Out here in the midwest, the vitality of the legend that 'artists just aren't very good at business' continues to create difficulties for artists who work hard & smartly in the marketplace.

Back to specifics, I wonder what sort of performance standards exist in a big shop, like... say... where Big Joe works? There MUST be productivity standards there. I have no desire to ask for any specific proprietary details (which wouldn't be posted anyway, as Big Joe has written here already), but I'm very curious about what sort of factors are in those, and -time- must certainly be measured in them.  What can you tell us about productivity standards, Joe, how is that approached?

Again, deep thanks to all for the thoughts, the words, the music and the instruments.

stv

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## sunburst

> Yuck! Is there really a market for other people's teeth?


Don't know, it was my molar I had rebuilt.
Before that I'd have made you a heck of a deal on it!

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## GTG

Not being a builder, this thread has definitely made me appreciate the work required to build a nice instrument. Whether it's 'fair' or not, I guess I'm impressed and thankful that luthiers are willing to do it. 

However, I'm a numbers guy, and what I find most striking is the difference between the hours purportedly required to build an F-type mando and a flat-top guitar. 

Mandos - Rick earlier quoted a spread of between 120 and 400 hours, but from the sounds of it (Hans' comments), 200 hours is a bit more like it. I'm no expert, but it seems that a lot of hand-built instruments go for $5-6000. Excluding all the overhead, that's $30/hr (input into the instrument, not wage, I realize). However, there are a lot of small builders who have instruments out there for $3500-4000 or less. Even if they're not putting the same hours in - closer to 150, maybe? - we're still down to 3500/150= $23/hr or so. It really seems incredible that folks like Howard Morris have F-mandos out there for $1200 or so. I can only assume he spends less than 100 hours on these instruments. No comments on relative quality between these instruments, please - that's not my point here. 

Guitars - At the extreme low end, someone said Martin has their guitars down to 7-8 hours, I believe; Rick mentioned a figure of 28 hours, and Mario said he could build "4-5" guitars in the same time as an F mando (200 hours again? give or take?). Let's ignore the Martin case (maybe there are more people involved in that time frame?), but then the opposite conclusion jumps out at me - nice guitars aren't that much cheaper than mandos! Plenty of $3000 guitars are out there, and they go way higher for buyers with heavier wallets. At 30 hours for a $2000 instrument, that's over $66/hr - more than twice the value rate of the F- mando. 40 hours for the same instrument still translates to $50/hr. 

I don't know if my numbers or assumptions are off (cost of materials about the same?), but, um, is it much more rewarding to build mandos than guitars? At these rates, it seems like some of the mando builders could crank out a few guitars every now and then to subsidize the 8-strings, if that's really what they want to be building.

I mean no offense by any of this - I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for all instrument builders.

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## Big Joe

I have no argument with Rick or anyone else. Just that there are more than any one criteria used to determine whether one wishes to build or not. Profit is a nice thing, but that may not motivate everyone. Therefore, any wage vs hours invested becomes a mute issue. If you are talking about those who are considering it as a business first, you will get a different answer from those who do not, and I would suspect most of those are not willing to discuss actual figures on an open web. I certainly would not discuss that about our company.

There are a few whose build quality and tone deserve top dollar. Others may do a great job but not gain such dollar interest for many reasons. I suspect Hans (as an example) could raise his prices substantially and still sell a good number of mandolins. Still, why is he building? Maybe the end price is not as important as a reasonable price that will guarantee continued ability to sell all he builds and allow him enough financial stability to live as he wants. That may be all he wishes for. Therefore, just having a higher price which in turn gives a higher wage per hour invested does not mean he is attaining his goal. I don't know what Hans motives are and only use him as an example. There are a number of builders who could charge more and still sell all they can but that may not be the only concern they have. Should they be penalized by us for that? I think not. On the other hand, I know one fairly new builder who is doing a very very good job and is charging premium prices for his work. He certainly deserves to get that if they sell. So far, he has sold everything he has built. His wage per hour is likely higher than many others. 

If you want to know what it cost to build an instrument minus labor/ profit you might get a better set of answers. Each builder will have a different set of costs depending upon the kind and expense of tooling, rent, help, utilities, wood and hardware selections, but there will be a better idea of what goes into building a mandolin. 

If you are thinking of a new career in mandolin building, you may be heading into a difficult life unless you have plenty of cash to carry you through until you have built a substantial number to develop the skills, find your niche in the market, and develop a market share at a price point that suits your needs. It is certainly not a wise career choice if you are thinking of a profitable future for you and your family. You could do much better selling Kirby vacuum cleaners or used cars. If you just want to build because you cannot do anything else with your time, and you are happy to get your piece of the pie, and you don't need a lot of pie, then you may have a chance of making it. It takes a good period of time, timing, and luck to become successful in any venture. Even more so in such a limited market segment.

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## Rick Turner

The spread of hours I posted came from others here; I was merely quoting.  Some of the higher numbers were clearly from folks just starting off, yet we still saw a range from "established" builders of from under 100 hours to well over 200.  Interesting...  Another issue is "shop rate" vs. wage.  Shop rate has to cover overhead...rent or mortgage and taxes on your shop, upkeep of the shop, tool purchases, electricity and gas if you heat the place that way, insurance of various types, bookkeeping and office expenses, etc.  Then there are your promotional expenses...advertising, attending festivals and shows, taking clients out for hot dogs, etc.  Then there's all the time you spend just talking to customers.  Frank Ford took meticulous records one year and found that for about 1,000 hours at the bench he had to put in 1,000 hours talking; that right there takes a $75.00 an hour shop rate and cuts it to $37.50.  So if you really dare to do the math, it's scary and certainly something to go running away from.

But I know how things are at Gibson; I used to run a division of the company You can bet there are spreadsheets showing F-5s to be a profitable product with far more detail than I included above.  Joe may not be allowed or willing to divulge numbers; but I'd bet a round at the bar that he knows them. Henry insists that all his division managers be Excel literate... And don't forget that Gibsons get sold wholesale to dealers...at a profit...and with so many of you making Gibson copies, that's the mando to beat.

----------

wowie zowie. this is one heck of a thread!

personaly, my story is this... i absolutly can not afford the price of a finer mandolin than what i own. (lil under 3 grand) i play by far well enough to be playing a best quality insturment.....
SO!
i looked at these mandolin kits, im going to buy one.... 
I HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS!
im getting into building by necessity........ i NEED a mandolin with f holes tone bars and varnish, but the super high costs of those kind of insturments prevents me!
so also for me i figured if i do actualy get into building insturments any further than my personal needs this is what i would do.
and this is what i reccomend to anyone who is considering a "full time" thing.
i would keep my day job. build in the off time. like i do now with glass blowing. i made glass full time for 11 years and i made great money at times and no money at times, but the fact is, its not stable. so if i build a few mandolins and/or guitars in a year in my shop, id come off with some extra cash for just having a good time, instead of "working". also that way you can really go all out and take time to make meticulous work, and not worry about the time cash junk..... using glass in conjunction with my day job has really worked out WAY better than glass full time. i think making mandolins would be similar.
but for anyone who really wants to full time it, be prepared to not make any money for quite a while! just like many other arts/businesses.

ive been involved in these "money or art or love of the craft" discussions involving different trades, and the real deal is we all have different scenario's, and everyones input in the discussion is valued, as any readers may piece together their own ideas and plans from the discussion.
however!
personaly, i think that if people are saying they arent making decent money making F style mandolins, they are doing something wrong. in any craft you have a process, and if your process isnt profitable, you must fix it to make it profitable. there is a zillion ways to skin a cat they say....
also getting paid over 100 dollars a day (after costs) is pretty good where i come from. an 8 hour day that means $12.5 an hour.

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## Michael Lewis

Lemonhill John, this is not in any way meant to discourage you from making instruments, if that is what you really want to do then by all means go for it. My point is that I think you can get a part time job and more easily afford a better mandolin than if you spend your time to make one. And there is the list of tools you will need, they are not inexpensive. Also, if you are going to do this for any money there is the bookkeeping, taxes, official paperwork, insurance, etc. 

One point I missed in this thread (it may be there, I just missed it if it is) is that a mandolin must deserve the price asked for it or it will not sell. Just because someone spends gobs of time making it doesn't mean it is worth a lot. Conversly, just because a great mandolin only took 75 hrs. doesn't mean it should sell for the time and materials. If it is a great instrument in all respects, it deserves a great price.

----------

hey michael... did you notice i been in the crafts world for the past 13 years? i noted that i worked glass full time for 11 years....... so yeah beleive me i know all about book keeping and taxes paperwork etc.. NOTHING NEW!!!!!!
i have two jobs as well, and I CANNOT AFFORD A BETTER MANDOLIN!! i have bills to pay life to live etc... if i had ten grand the last thing i would be able to do with it is to buy a peice of wood. i blow glass, and i drive a refridgerated truck...... beleive me i hussle my butt big time to make the money i get.
michael i think you totaly misread my post judging by your reply.

if i build it, it will be WAY cheaper! if i can get all the raw materials costs down to 1000 dollars then thats great.
im no spring chicken when it comes to working with my hands and tools!
i have access to everything i would need to build one, my glass studio is in a building i share with a furniture maker/wood worker and i have tons of my own tools.
beleive me if i could get the money together to afford a master model, that would be the last thing i spent the money on, unless i got a walloping case of MAS.
its far from something i can afford in my life at this time, but i definatly deserve one, i practice way enough!
if i buy a kit, put it together, finagle the top a little bit, finish it, i get what i want cheaper.
its a risk i know, because i have never built a mandolin, but its my best option right now. with glass blowing it was way different for me. i am good at what i do and the company's i worked with were great to me, they know that an artist cant always afford the best tools and products for their work, so i got hooked up with grants in the form of materials, and free tools like the monster bench burner i have that was given to me for free because the maker of the torch felt that i should have one......
i dont think that the "love" flows like that in the insturment making industry, if it does please point me to the nearest builder who would like to set a young guy who plays good mandolin, who is trying to make it somekind of professional way, who is a hard working guy, up with a mandolin!!!!!!!!!
there arnt enough hours in the day for me to get another job!

and oy vey, dont get ME started about overhead costs, running a glass shop? hahahahahahaha! oh my lordy lordy lord! it costs lots just for it to sit there!

so yeah, all this adds up to the good ol way "TAKIN MATTERS INTO YOUR OWN HANDS!"
and if i fail miserably, ill probably try again, and again.........
i dream about these crazy priced mandolins. i swear its like a cruel joke for someone who can play, but doesnt have money or come from money.

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## Links

Good luck , LemonHill -  but I think Michael's point is still valid. I think the "best" reason to build your own mandolin from a kit is "because you want to". You say that you don't have enough hours to get another job to pay for a new instrument -  well where are you going to find the hours to build even a kit. It sounds like to me that your other priorities take far more precedent over your mandoin. That's fine. You know better than anyone else how your money should be spend.

Good luck again on whichever route you choose and keep blowing that beautiful glass! Sounds like you are good at it!

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## sunburst

Michael and Links are both right.
I built my first instrument for the very reason you say. I couldn't afford what I wanted, so I made one. I've always been handy with tools, was confident in my ability, had time, thought it would be a great, fun project, so I built it (a b&jo).

As for mandolins, you _don't have to_ spend $10,000 to get a good one! you can get _top_ quality from any one of many builders for less than $5000, in some cases quite a bit less. 

If you want to build a mandolin, great! It can be fun. We'll help you every step of the way if you just ask here on the Cafe. You'll have a good instrument when you are through, most likely, but you're first mandolin is not likely to better than you can buy with the money you could have made in the time it took to build it, so don't think that building it yourself is the only way to get a good one. It took me about 10 or 12 mandolins to be able to consistently build a better one than I could more easily buy.

If you already;
-don't watch TV or own one
-drive an older car- (no car payment)
-live in the the least expensive place that suits your standards
-otherwise don't spend money you don't have to
Then OK, you can't afford a mandolin, but if there is some other (_any_ other) optional expense in your life, simply adjust your priorities and get a good mandolin. Then go ahead and build one just for fun!

Why, just last week, a guy said to me; "I'd like to have one of your mandolins, but I can't afford one", then he got in his 'extended cab' pickup truck and drove off to play golf (stopping by the gas station on the way, most likely).

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## markishandsome

> i NEED a mandolin with f holes tone bars and varnish, but the super high costs of those kind of insturments prevents me!





> if i can get all the raw materials costs down to 1000 dollars then thats great.


You can get a Gibson A9 on the cafe classifieds or ebay for less than $1000, and Eastman makes spirit varnished As for less than that. I don't think raw materials should cost you any more than a $200, and kits don't cost much more than that. I don't know what any of this has to do with the rest of this thread, especially since the whole point was that LABOR is the biggest expense in instrument making.

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## billhay4

I am going to present another rationale for building instruments here, that of the dilletante.
Building instruments can be a hobby, but it can also be a means to an end-- enlightenment. If you want to play mandolin, want to really learn the instrument, one facet of that endeavor is learning how to build the instrument. You learn things about music that you'd never learn just playing.
Music is art, whatever that is. The mandolin is a tool. The art of mandolin music transcends both art and craft.
I started building because I love to mess with wood, but I continue to build because to love to see wood become music.
FWIW,
Bill

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## thistle3585

Wow, thats cool. I make as much building mandolins as some of the big guys.  

 I agree with Bill. I would say that I average about $10.00 an hour making solid body electric mandos. I could probably double that if I didn't work on them here and there or if I made a half dozen at a time. Right now, its just fun and I don't care too much about making money off of them other than to buy more tools and materials. I'm just in it for the fun. When it starts to cut into my personal life then I'll look at what my time is worth and price them accordingly or get out of it. 

Andrew

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## Alex of the North

Sorry if this is hopelessly offtopic or needlessly provocative, but what roll does the mandolin community's f style fetish play into this question? What good do all of those baroque curleycues do? To what extent do these kind of nutty (if you step back and take a look) aesthetic preferences distort the mandolin economy? How many of those 100s of hours are spent on stuff that's neither functional nor good for tone? I realize that there are handmade instruments made by some of you that bypass all of that, but I can't help thinking that the current state of the mandolin trade is strangely effected by aesthetic choices made at the turn of the previous century. Why aren't there more high quality, handmade 50 hour mandolins out there?

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## PseudoCelt

I'm not sure this fits into this thread, but it follows on from something that has been touched on in a couple of posts, and it is connected with a luthier's income.

I am curious to know how a luthier determines the actual selling price of their instruments. Initially, an unknown builder must sell at a relatively modest price, while their reputation grows. At what point do you decide that your instruments are worth more than you are currently selling them for? How do luthiers decide their instruments are worth $10k or $15k, or more?

Patrick

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## sunburst

Alex (of the North), bingo!
You nailed it. A lot of work, time, and effort goes into "aesthetic choices made at the turn of the previous century".

But, from my experience, few people take a new, unknown builder seriously if he/she shows them an A. Build a name and a reputation, and people will buy your A-style mandolins, but if you are carrying a mandolin around to festivals and such, showing it to people and trying to break into the building business with an unfamiliar name on the peghead and label, my experience indicates that it better be an F5 if you want it taken seriously.

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## DavidB

I would tell lemonhilljohn to go for it. I did with no regrets. I built my first F Mando because I wanted one and could not justitfy spending big buck for one. BTW for me $500 is big bucks. I bought a kit, built it simple but I think right for the time. I did not go into great pains on beauty and frills. But I just wanted to first find out what I could do in the playability and sound department. I was not disappointed. It ain't a spectacular beauty but looks nice to anyone not searching for blemishes. More importantly I like to play it, and have gotten good comments from people I jam with and at least one of them is a pro mando/guitarist from a sucessfull bluegrass band(who btw plays a vintage Gibson F-5). 
Now I am ready and have begun building my second one a few bucks at a time, getting all the frills and good quality tuners and other hardware a little at a time. In a few months I expect(and hope) to have both the beauty and playability without a major outlay of cash at one time. AND for less than $500 I will have a one of a kind and when someone asks what kind is my mando I can say "I just made it". that gives a lot of pleasure and pride.Now that's the 2 cents worth from an old man with a venture into a new realm.

----------

ok, my post was totaly on topic, a little to a side, but on topic....
did you notice my points that were also very directly related to the topic?
i want to build because i want to...
if you must know....
i blow glass saturday, sunday, monday, and evenings, mostly on wed, thurs, and fri, evenings, i drive a truck during the day on tues, weds thurs, fridays.... so i still have plenty of time to build a mandolin....... its not anything i cant tackle, and there is obviously no time left for another job.
i dont watch tv.
i also dont have car payments, 
i dont spend extra money,
)

the point is, that mandolin building COST per hour turn into mandolin COST for the buyer... so when i see a thread like this, and i realize that if i buy a kit, where most of the cutting is done, that wipes a HUGE amount of time off the peice. most of the time spent on my mandolin would be drying times!
sorry i have to connect the dots here for y'all.... i thought my posts were pretty straight forward.....

for your information.... i dont want an eastman, that is DEFINATLY NOT better than my mandolin now! read back, i paid 3Gs for my mando, further its a weber custom bitterroot with fern woods..... i definatly dont want a gibson F9 or A9, that is not better than my current mando... 
and NEITHER ARE LIKE A MASTER MODEL!!!!!! haha!
so comon you cant really mean that......... if you are really repling directly to what i said, because those replies, do not apply.

any builder here has got to recognize that some people just dont have the room in their lives for something that costs 10 grand and up...
i happen to be one of those people. 

obviously i want to build a mandolin, and i need one..... 

thanks davidB

im not sayin im gonna go out and buld a mm, but it will be a hoss im sure....

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## Bill Snyder

If you can channel some of that confidence into your finished mandolin it will definitely be a killer instrument.

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## Jim Hilburn

I was thinking about this thread and an aspect of why we build came to mind that I don't think I've heard anyone else bring up.
I came to the conclusion that I would eventually build my own mandolin in the early 70's after meeting someone who had done it. At that time it was a near nessesity as there were virtually no good options available at least affordable options. At about the same time I broke into the electrical trade starting at the bottom wiring mobile homes and tract homes in Austin for $3 an hour and worked for the next 25 years till my last job at $28 an hour with benefits.
One thing I learned in that trade was that no matter how lucrative it might be the only time your work got any notice was how much or little you got done or if it didn't work when you were finished.
Getting the atta-boy's definitely plays into the equation.

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## Darryl Wolfe

> But, from my experience, few people take a new, unknown builder seriously if he/she shows them an A. ....... my experience indicates that it better be an F5 if you want it taken seriously.


Now that is a seriously good observation John

----------

confidence? what ? you know not who you speak of bill snyder! ill take your car apart and put it back together, frame your house, dry wall it paint it, carpet it, make stem ware and vases and flat ware, all the landscaping, and then build a mandolin! hhaha!
im one of those people. so after my brief initial study of mandolin building, i find its not super illusive and difficult. however i have yet to build it, so its my initial ideas....
i know its going to be a learning process, i dont really plan on getting into building mandolins as a hobby even....
i do plan on making two... first an A, then maybe just maybe an F, but probably another A model. im not going for looks.

this is the kicker:
this thread is what made me decide to go ahead and build myself a mando... and of all the people on this thread the guy who tried to tell me to go buy one (and get another job LOLOLOL) instead of building, HE WAS THE MAIN REASON!!!!!!! you gotta find that amusing!

i really enjoyed michaels posts very insightful and informative.
also everyone elses posts were helpful as well......
markishandsome, thats a great screen name. 

facts are i have more to gain by building myself, than saving for like the next fifteen years.......

also i wonder if anyone would build me a high quality mandolin, without any inlay or binding, just for the tone, and if i could actualy afford that.
either way, my original note on this subject still stands, if you are a crafts person, and you feel your hourly wage for making a F mando is good enough, you must change your process, streamline it. thats how i have done things in the glass market, for myself and other artists/bussinesses, if you make a prototype, you then can figure out how to make them faster, sometimes you have to make ten at a time to make things happen faster, sometimes you have to buy some pre-fabed stuff, sometimes you just gotta work faster....... 

anyways....... this is the thread that made me want to build a mandolin, and thanks michael lewis. i VERY much enjoy salivating over your insturments on your web page.
someday i would like to buy one, when im out of the red with my biz.

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## sunburst

John, I don't know how old you are, but you sound like a young man. you sound like the young man I was 30 years ago, full of confidence to the point of overconfidence sometimes. You surely can do all those things, but as you have certainly found out from your glass experience, you don't usually get it "right" on the first try. 
Every year that goes by, I realize how much there is to learn, how much better I can do things with more experience, and how many mistakes there still are lurking out there ready to spring into action when I least expect them. I also see how limited time is, and how little one person can do in one lifetime. I also expect that this post will probably have very little meaning to you unless you can remember it in 20 years.  
My early mandolins got "rave reviews", for the most part, but I know how much better they are now, and how much room there still is for improvement.

Best of luck with your mandolin building!

----------

today the brakes went on my truck so i get to dork around on the computer!

ok, so i was joking around a bit, i have confidence and all , but beleive me, i know its not an easy task.

i have the more important thing than confidence, patience. so that will help im sure.

my idea was this...... buy a kit, wich takes alot of the time out, put it together, do my best (with help from some luthier and violin maker friends) to tune the chamber and finish it, no binding, no scroll, no inlays. just an insturment that will hopefully give me that bluegrass tone. 

i think i need to use more smileys in my posts so people can see where the exagerations and funnies are.... i have my own way about things, and typing them out proves to be an easy way to say the wrong thing!  

i am just turned 29 on the 2nd. but your post does have meaning now sunburst!
i did put something in one of my posts about failing miserably..... i know that is a possibility!
id be damned if i dont try though. i dont care what the thing looks like as long as it plays and sounds like id like it too.

here is a point that i semi made earlier and i wonder how many of you work....
if you make say 10 mandos at once.... then you never have any down time, while you wait for glue to dry on one, you are glueing up another, or taking clamps off another. there is always over lap in a production glass shop, thats where i got the idea, because if you have a moment where you are not working or just waiting, thats time lost. i would think that you could shave alot of production time off by working in this manner. and i dont mean get halfway on one then start another, i mean they all go one step at a time with one another down the line.

i dont plan on becomeing a mandolin maker, as much as i think that would be great, its not my calling. but it sure is your calling john, killer work on your site.

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## sunburst

I think most people figure their production time that way. 
Around here, there's _always_ something to do in the shop. I don't just build mandolins, and I do more repair work than building. At any one time, I'll have half a dozen projects in the works. I don't sit around and watch glue dry!  

BTW, I finished putting the brakes on the @#%* car yesterday.

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## Jim Rowland

Lemonhill,I think you are going to build a mandolin,and I think it is going to be a pretty good one. And I think that the process you will validate some of your convictions and modify others. And when she (why do we always feel impelled to use the feminine pronoun?)is strung up and you are playing her,you will be extremely pleased with your work,...then slowly and surely,you will begin to discover some little things you wish you had done better;hear some sounds that you wish were a little more to your liking etc,etc. get a few negative critiques planted in annoying places in the field of positive ones like weeds,AND THEN you will start planning the NEXT one. Of course,I may be wrong,but I like to think that in addition to being extraordinarily handsome,I am always right. Regardless of the outcome,I hope you will keep us posted.
By the way,how does one use them little emoticons? In re-reading one of my recent posts,I can see where I might have well used one.
Jim

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## markishandsome

> read back, i paid 3Gs for my mando, further its a weber custom bitterroot with fern woods..... i definatly dont want a gibson F9 or A9, that is not better than my current mando...
> and NEITHER ARE LIKE A MASTER MODEL!!!!!! haha!



Oh, see when I read:





> i absolutly can not afford the price of a finer mandolin than what i own. (lil under 3 grand)



I assumed you meant that the one you couldn't afford cost 3 grand. I don't want you to think that I was discouraging you from making your own instrument, I've made 5 myself and think it's great fun. I was really just baffled by the many seeming contradictions and mis-impressions in your posts. For one thing, the A9 is exactly what you claim to want: a master model without all the decorations. Very few people around here would agree that the MMs sound better than the instruments the builders on this thread sell for less than 1/2 the price, or even your Weber. I'm not sure what you're looking for or what you're trying to prove, but I think you'll be disappointed if you expect your kit-build to turn out better than what you already have. There's a little thing called experience that factors in. Getting the most out of a piece of wood is more complicated than just thinning the plate. 

However! I think you should build as many as you want/have time for, it'll be fun I promise. But I still don't see what this has to do with how much money a professional builder earns per hour.

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## Sitka

> BTW, I finished putting the brakes on the @#%* car yesterday.


I have a feeling that it is a Ford...

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## Bill Snyder

> Originally Posted by  (sunburst @ April 12 2007, 17:53)
> 
> BTW, I finished putting the brakes on the @#%* car yesterday. 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling that it is a Ford...


Why. I have owned Fords, GMC products and Chrysler products and so far none of them have had brakes that did not worked on at some point.

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## sunburst

Mercury

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## Rick Turner

Boy, has this thread spun out!

But at least we've heard from someone who is going to build a master grade instrument on their first try.  That's worth the price of admission right there...  Just goes to show all of us how easy it must be...

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for someone who makes really nice insturments you dont read very well, its all right there for you to read before you make a silly comment like that. i never said it was easy, but hell man its a kit, and im totaly into perfection, especialy anything i make with my hands. 
i said i want a mandolin with F holes and varnish, and also would like it to have a TUNED chamber. i have friends who will help with that.
the only mandolins i am aware of that are varnished etc, are 10 grand and up.
i quote myself i said "im not sayin im gonna go out and buld a mm, but it will be a hoss im sure.... "
go ahead and read it for yourself, its right there in an unedited post on the previous page!

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## Hans

Well, we finally got a Ford/Chevy debate! #

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## Bill James

Lemmonhilljohn you sound like a colorful character. I like that you keep your sense of humor even when people take a few jabs at you. Lord nows the world needs more people like that and something tells me you'll enjoy building your mandolin no matter how it turns out. 

And hey....if it doesn't turn out well, you can put it on E-bay and pump it up as a GIBSON KILLER!!!##*&%%$##. Someone might buy it for $10,000.00 and you can come back and tell us how much you made per hour.

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## markishandsome

LHJ-
You might want to read some of the old threads on "varnish" and other types of finishes. And air chamber tuning for that matter.

There's a varnished Mowry F5 in the classifieds for 3,250 (NFI). 

I guess what I've been trying to say all along is that while you claim building your own is your "only option", you clearly have not explored your options very well. 

Be sure to post some pics in progress once you've started  
I'm sure you'll take a different approach than the usual.

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## billhay4

Why do you guys keep discouraging this boy from building? Let him do it. He'll learn; he might even get the bug. He just might build a first class instrument. Some have early in the game. Even if he doesn't, the world will be a better place for his having made the effort.
Bill

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## Links

Sorry Rick! This thread has taken a turn!

My last Explorer - 160,000 miles - 3 sets of rotors, each turned about three times - numerous pads

Bill - I agree  - let him build it, even if his logic may not be perfect (at least to many of us). I still think he should build it because he "wants to", as opposed to "needs to" (which I think has been proved not to be the case).

My present Tahoe - 215,000 miles -  1st brake job at 205,000 (not even new pads til then)

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## sunburst

> Why do you guys keep discouraging this boy from building?


I don't see anybody discouraging anyone from building. We're all saying build away, and have fun!

What we _are_ saying is that we think the logic is flawed in thinking that one can build a better mandolin, on the first try, than one can buy, and we are especially saying that the logic is flawed in thinking that building is the only option for anyone.

It is a simple fact that you can buy a varnished, top quality mandolin for _far_ less than the mentioned $10,000, and that fact has been stated by several people here.

A good reason to build a mandolin is because you want to. To conclude that you have no other option is simply not an informed conclusion.

Build for the challenge, for the fun, for the sense of accomplishment, but if you want a good mandolin and you're not an experienced builder, the economics of the situation say you're better off doing what you do well, and using the funds from that activity to buy the best mandolin you can afford. See? we really haven't left the whole dollars per hour theme behind.

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## Rick Turner

John Hamlett, Voice of Reason.  

Thank you, John...

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## Rick Turner

Oh...all mandolins have tuned chambers. 

What note, what degree of resonance, what the overtones are of that tuning, how that relates to the top and back tap tones...those are the issues.  And nobody I know has ever figured all that out on the first instrument.


"Tuned chamber" is marketing talk...

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## Dale Ludewig

Lordy, this discussion, such as it is, has gone so far afield that I might even feel compelled to disagree with John in one sense- it has nothing to directly to do with what a luthier makes per hour. I do agree that one should build if one wants to, regardless of the economic consequences. In the world of fly fishing, for example, it's far cheaper to buy your flies than buy all the materials and tools and learn the skills to tie them yourself. But there is a certain satisfaction you get when you tie your own and catch a fish (or many) on your own.

Tuned chambers? Please excuse me. Marketing talk is an understatement, IMHO.

So, what do we luthier types make per hour after all the overhead, capital expenses, learning time (down time) make per hour? I'd guess, far too little, but as Rick has stressed, if your livelihood depends on it, you'd better be paying attention to it.

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ok so i was totaly bsin on that.... gently ribbing hehe for real im on my own. 

ill let you all know how it goes. im buying a kit next week after a root canal. yay

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