# Music by Genre > Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk >  Celtic chord progressions

## John Bertotti

Can someone lead me to some Celtic chord progressions? Everything I've found is notes mostly not chords.

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## danb

Just play lots of Ds   :Grin: 


Actually it's a little more complicated- you need to be aware of modal harmony if you want to really get a hang of it. The D-scale in different modes is used on a majority of the tunes, learning the major, mixolidian, and the 2 common minor modes will get you far.

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## Avi Ziv

Chris Smith's book has useful ideas

Celtic Backup

Avi

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## steve V. johnson

Hey John,

I've sent you a PM.

stv

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## John Bertotti

Never have I opened such a large can of worms. Seemed like a simple little thing I wanted to do now I see I got my work cut out for me. Looks like fun! Thanks!

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## EdSherry

I second the recommendation for Chris Smith's "Celtic Backup" book/CD, but it can be pretty heavy going in spots.

Many (but not all) tunebooks have (someone's idea of) a chord progression corresponding to the tune.  In my experience, some of them feel "right," others do not.

"Captain Fiddle" (Ryan Thompson) has a chord book (only) for some 1400 traditional tunes available here (NFI):

http://www.captainfiddle.com/chordencyclop.html

Again, don't take his chords as "gospel."

I recall reading something along the following lines in a thread here some while back:

"In bluegrass, the chord progression is fixed, the "skeleton" of the tune is roughly laid out, and lead players improvise a melodic line around the progression/skeleton.  In Celtic music, the melody is fixed, the lead players ornament the melody slightly, and the chord players improvise a chord progression around the melody."

That rings very true for a lot of the DADGAD guitar players I know.

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## John Bertotti

I was absent form this forum for a long while. I missed that EdSherry but it does make sense when I think about it. I will check out both the books. I do have the Thomas Ohmson book but it is a lot of info real fast. I have read it a couple times and pick something up each time but putting it all together is difficult.

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## steve V. johnson

Hey, John,

What's the "Thomas Ohmson" book?

thanks,

stv

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## EdSherry

Steve -- Ohmson's book is "Music Theory for Modern Mandolin."  Available from AcuTab:

http://www.elderly.com/also/books/items/172-1.htm

(NFI.)

It's not primarily directed toward Celtic music, which is why I'd recommend the Chris Smith book (which is, but conversely which is directed to all accompanying instruments, not just mandolin).

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## steve V. johnson

Thanks, Ed, much appreciated.

stv

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## John Bertotti

Steve the Ohmson book covers what you sent me but what you sent took it a step farther so I could see past the theory. Now I need to find a way to burn all this info into my short and long term memory and apply it! I iwill be checking out the other recommendations also. I am a bit of a book worm.. :Laughing:

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## Dylan Hatch

I have a favor to ask - Steve, could you send me the information you sent the OP?  I have a few books I am saving up to buy(now including the Mandolin Theory book mentioned earlier).  However, I am in the "saving up" stage at the moment.  :Smile:  

In the meantime, I am very interested in learning more about the accompaniment side of Celtic music - I am learning tunes which is both fun and good, and want to balance that out.

Thank you very much in advance - I have enjoyed reading your input on many topics over the past few years.

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## steve V. johnson

Sorry, folks, it appears that I should not have posted these.

My mistake.

stv

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## steve V. johnson

Sorry, folks, it appears that I should not have posted these.

My mistake.

stv

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## steve V. johnson

Sorry, folks, it appears that I should not have posted these.

My mistake.

stv

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## zoukboy

Hello John,

I agree with the quote Ed posted and I may have even said something like that in a previous thread here. But I would like to caution against thinking of the harmonic activity in Irish and other "Celtic" musics as "chord changes".

Usually when people talk about chord changes, as in most American musics, they are referring to harmony that is part of the structure of a song or tune. This isn't really the case in the musics that are called "Celtic". The structure of the music is usually just the melody and the harmony is implicit within that. Accompaniment in these musics is still relatively new and usually improvised (when it's good!) and so the challenge is to hear that implied harmony and to actualize it in real time. Because of this I and a lot of other people who play and teach Irish music try to stay away from sources that give "the chords".

Instead of chord changes, there are cadences typical of the 4 modes used in Irish music.  Once you learn these cadential tendencies then the whole series of harmonic gestures used will be clear to you. It's not that complex, there is a finite set of data to memorize and practice and then it becomes part of your harmonic vocabulary on your instrument.

I second the recommendation of Chris Smith's book. It is by far the best on the subject.

Good luck!

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## IndianaTim

I've been playing guitar for more than 30 years, and Trad music for about 5 years, and to this day, guitar accompaniment of Trad mystifies me. 

With that said, the first bit of sense I can share is that if you're trying to accompany on guitar, follow the bodhran player (assuming the bodhran player is good, like Stv's wife, and she's playing the bodhran, as I wouldn't want you to get in trouble for chasing a married woman). The point being, if you don't get the hand holding the pick doing what it's supposed to do, nothing you do with your other hand is going to matter because it'll be all wrong. 

The next bit of sense is that no matter how your guitar is tuned or capo'ed, be sure you know which open strings are in the key of the tune--the tonic and/or the 5th. Chances are, if you don't fret those strings and play them a lot, whatever else you do will have a 50/50 chance of still sounding okay, even if played as just a passing chord.

Finally, refer to my first statement. I could be totally wrong about all of this, except maybe the part about Stv's wife.

Tim

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## John Bertotti

Some of you need to move to Sioux Falls I need an instructor!

This has become one of the threads I'll be saving!

Thanks everyone!

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## EdSherry

Niles hit it exactly on the head:

"The structure of [Celtic] music is usually just the melody and the harmony is implicit within that. Accompaniment in these musics is still relatively new and usually improvised (when it's good!) and so the challenge is to hear that implied harmony and to actualize it in real time."

Whether one calls that "chord changes" or "chord progressions" or "cadences" or "implied harmony" or "implied chords" strikes me as more a matter of semantics than anything else.  

[One music dictionary I have defines "cadence" as "a progression of (at least) two chords that conclude a phrase, section, or piece of music."  That's fine, but what about the chords that precede the "conclusion" of the musical phrase?]

I also fully agree with Niles' comment about staying away from those who insinuate they have "THE chords" to a traditional Celtic tune.  IMHO, there's nothing wrong with suggesting "A" set of chord changes, but to suggest that that set of changes is "THE" correct one -- and that others are therefore less worthy of consideration -- ignores Niles' point that "the tradition" is largely (though not entirely) unaccompanied -- and that much of what historically passed for accompaniment was wrong-headed (just listen to the ham-handed piano 'accompaniment' behind some of Michael Coleman's recordings to see what I mean).  

That said, "you have to walk before you can run."  There is a lot to be said for:

(a) immersing yourself in the music, 

(b) finding out what chord changes/cadences others [especially good role models] are using -- whether [ideally] by listening intently or [if need be] by resorting to chord charts given in tune books (as a starting place only!); 

(c) learning to recognize "common" changes/cadences and link them to the musical phrases in the tune [as Niles says, they tend to come up again and again in the tradition]; 

(d) learning to "hear" in your head what you think works musically (and what you think doesn't!) with tunes you are familiar with; 

(e) experimenting with changes/cadences to new tunes. and 

(f)  getting constructive criticism from those whose "ears" you respect.  


Just as the ii-V-I progression is a common jazz cadence that recurrs over and over again in hundreds (thousands) of jazz tunes, so the I-IV-V-I (e.g., D-G-A-D) progression or the I-bVII-I (e.g., G-F-G) progression or the ii-I-ii (e.g., Em-D-Em) progression recur again and again in Celtic music.  You just need to get them into your head so that you can recognize them when they do.


Unfortunately, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."  One thing I can't stress enough is to discipline yourself to 'lay out' on a new tune and just listen until you know how it goes.  So-called "accompanists" who figure "I know it's a reel in D, so I'll just play my standard D reel progression" are one of my pet peeves at sessions.

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## zoukboy

> Niles hit it exactly on the head:
> <snip>
> I also fully agree with Niles' comment 
> <snip>
>  [as Niles says, they tend to come up again and again in the tradition];


Ed,

I think you have me confused with someone else.......  ;-)

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## Bertram Henze

Acompanying with the OM, I like to think of a repository of double stops for a given scale rather than chords. Find the scale first, then jump around in the corresponding repository. E.g. sometimes a melody player might call out "A minor", but it still can be dorian or aeolian. After that it's easy. We are lucky to have a limited number of scales in Irish music and a consequent fifths tuning.

Example: On a D major (=ionian) scale, my repository is x00x, x22x, x45x, x57x, 22xx, 44xx and sometimes 66xx (the last one is a bold break out of the scale, but can sound good).
My repositories are purely experimental, don't ask me about any theory behind them (which probably exists, but...).

About there being no absolute chords - often, there is a certain local routine defined by the regular guitar players in a session, and you have no chance doing fancy things, such as shifting the scale type (any given tune appears in a new light if you, say, shift from A dorian to A aeolian for a short moment).

Since the roles of melody and chords are reversed between American and Irish music - shouldn't someone invent breaks for the acompaniment players?

Bertram

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## IndianaTim

Perhaps in trad, they should be called "chord digressions"?

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## EdSherry

Roger -- Oops!  My bad ... 

At least I attributed your comment to someone else who knows a thing or two about mandolins ... :-)

Maybe it's because your name and Niles' name both have five letters.  (That must be it ...  naah!)  Those of us with short names tend to get confused easily.

PS -- I thought of editing my earlier post to fix the mistake.  But while that might be the EASY way ... [wait for it ... a little more ...]

It wouldn't be The COWBOY Way!  (With apologies to 'Ranger' Doug Green and Riders in the Sky.)

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## POB

> Perhaps in trad, they should be called "chord digressions"?


That's excellent, Tim!  :Laughing: 




> Since the roles of melody and chords are reversed between American and Irish music - shouldn't someone invent breaks for the acompaniment players?


Bertram, sounds to me like you just have! I like it.

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## zoukboy

I wanted to clarify my earlier comments a bit. If you were to ask a bluegrass player "what are the chord changes to Shady Grove", he/she would have a ready answer for you--one that you could utilize with confidence. Ask a jazz player "what are the chords for Giant Steps?" He/she'd either tell you or refer you to a fakebook. In either case the chords are set either by tradition or by the act of composition. The same can't really be said of the vast majority of Irish trad tunes (there are exceptions in recent compositions). If you were to ask me  "what are the chords to Drowsy Maggie?" I might say the normal Dorian cadence i-VII-i (Em-D-Em) with a v-i (Bm-Em) turnaround, and even though that might be very helpful those chords are not part of the structure of the music as defined either by tradition (though that could change) or composition.

Here's another way to look at it: in the first two examples, Shady Grove and Giant Steps, what happens if you play the melody *without* any chords? Shady Grove would still work but I think we've all grown accustomed to hearing chords in bluegrass so it would sound bare at the least--we would notice something missing. In the case of Giant Steps it would probably sound weird since the changes are part of the structure of the tune, and in fact they are what generations of jazz musicians have found such a challenge to solo over. If one were to solo over those changes without the changes being played then those changes would only be implied by the melody.

With Irish music, though, you can take away the chordal accompaniment and guess what? It's still complete (some would say better without!). It still sounds natural. It doesn't need accompaniment to be complete because that was how it was played for a long, long time.

Also, there really aren't any set changes for Irish tunes because good accompanists will constantly vary what they are playing with chord substitutions happening frequently. Because that is the practice I think it's more helpful to think of the harmonic information as implied rather than explicit.

The approach to Irish trad back-up that I think works the best is improvised counterpoint (see: Finn, Alec), in which the chordal information is only partially played or suggested. The approach that I think works the least is block chords on guitar, piano or bouzouki. The thing that I was cautioning against was the idea that Irish music be approached as we would approach other musics. It's really different.

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## EdSherry

Roger (hey, I think I got it right this time ;-) -- I almost entirely agree with what you say, but would add the following:

First, the question of whether it's better to play block chords vs. improvised counterpoint strikes me as a different question than the question "what chord changes work over this tune"?   To use your "Giant Steps" example, a pianist who plays "the right" chord changes, but does so with all "block chords," can seriously detract from the feel of the music.  (Imagine a jazz pianist playing an "oom-pah" bass-chord accompaniment style.  Polka, yes; jazz, no.)   

Second, I fully agree with the proposition that the music can stand on its own two feet without accompaniment.  But if you ARE going to play an accompanying instrument, there are chords that simply don't fit with the melody that's being played, as well as chords that do.  

When you say "there really aren't any set changes for Irish tunes because good accompanists will constantly vary what they are playing with chord substitutions happening frequently," the latter is clearly true ... but the trick is to put in the "right" substitutions at the right time.  

When I say to someone seeking help on "the chord changes" for a tune "no, it stays on the one, it doesn't go to the five yet," I'm not ruling out a different substitution (e.g., I-ii-iii-I rather than just hanging on the I chord) -- but rather I'm saying that the five chord simply doesn't fit that part of melody.


Third, in my experience, folks seeking guidance on "the chords" to a tune are often trying to figure out what to play (and, perhaps more important, what NOT to play).  It takes a lot of time and exposure to the music to "hear" how a tune goes and what the "implied" harmonization is.  "You have to walk before you can run."

In the meantime, I'd rather tell (or give) a newbie A set of chord changes that fit the melody (without claiming that they are "THE" only changes that work) than hear them flailing away at a set of changes that clearly don't fit the tune.

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## zoukboy

Thanks, Ed!  And I find myself almost completely agreeing with everything you said! :-)

Good point about my point of block chords vs. counterpoint: I would just point out that when I stated my preference for counterpoint it was only in relation to Irish trad.  I agree that one has to "walk before one can run" but through many workshops around the country I have seen the value of helping students start thinking in contrapuntal terms from the very beginning. I find that so often if one starts by thinking of block chords then it is very difficult to get off that and onto a contrapuntal stream, so to speak. Also it is easier to learn to hear one or two voices moving with or against a melody than to be thinking of fully-voiced chords to hang onto it. On bouzouki, I often show students how keeping a drone going and then moving only one voice against the melody is a viable and appropriate simple accompaniment, and how it can be used as a basis for more elaborate development when they're ready for it.

My preference for contrapuntal accompaniment (in Irish music) is really a preference for linear accompaniment that mimics the melody in some ways; horizontal development rather than vertical. And some of the nicest accompaniments seem to happen without any conscious reference to chords or chords changes.

And one other point I think I should make here: the harmonic implications of any given accompaniment are really of secondary or even tertiary importance. Rhythm comes first and dynamics second. :-)

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## John Bertotti

A lot of great discussion going on here. I wonder though, for us that are not so savvy, me, do you guys have any examples to illustrate what your talking about? A link to you tube, a mp3, anything that is easily located? :Confused:  :Popcorn:

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## wormdiet

> A lot of great discussion going on here. I wonder though, for us that are not so savvy, me, do you guys have any examples to illustrate what your talking about? A link to you tube, a mp3, anything that is easily located?



Donal Lunny backing up GOD (Matt Molloy) playing "The Bucks of Oranmore"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7NxJDp4zQ


Lunasa playing a set of tunes. The last tune on the track is the Bucks or something much like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqKh6Uyz9do

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## John Bertotti

ThankYou Very Much, Excellent!

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## Rando7

> With that said, the first bit of sense I can share is that if you're trying to accompany on guitar, follow the bodhran player


I had to chuckle at this, I've been playing the bodhran about 10 years (and boy are my arms tired) and in bodhran discussion groups the advice is often to "follow the guitar".

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## John Bertotti

What the heck, the bind leading the blind EH! :Laughing:

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## Rob Gerety

> I recall reading something along the following lines in a thread here some while back:
> 
> "In bluegrass, the chord progression is fixed, the "skeleton" of the tune is roughly laid out, and lead players improvise a melodic line around the progression/skeleton.  In Celtic music, the melody is fixed, the lead players ornament the melody slightly, and the chord players improvise a chord progression around the melody."


This true statement has been a real revelation for me.  Asking for chord progressions actually sort of misses the soul of celtic back up playing which is just about 100% improvisation.  Put a dozen back up players in a room and you'll get a dozen different ways to back up the same tune.  Lot of room for creativity.

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## wormdiet

> This true statement has been a real revelation for me.  Asking for chord progressions actually sort of misses the soul of celtic back up playing which is just about 100% improvisation.  Put a dozen back up players in a room and you'll get a dozen different ways to back up the same tune.  *Lot of room for creativity.*


Just... not at the same time  :Smile:

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## John Bertotti

I'm certainly not trying to take the sould out of Celtic music, I imagine that is what drwas me to it to start with, but when a persons knowledge is limited a starting place is a boon. If I can learn a few ways to play a tune I will be better prepared to eventually improvise my own. I have to start somewhere and my music knowledge is sadly in the preschool years compared to most of you here.



I also apologize to anyone who is transferred to my neck of the woods. Seems to be a bit of a prayer of mine to get some mando players, who can guide me, in my neck of the woods.  :Grin: 


You should see hte Cletic cross Bill Bussmann put on the headstock of my A oval! Sorry couldn't resist. I am just to darn excited!

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## Paul Kotapish

Well said, Roger and Ed. 

Learning to accompany traditional Irish tunes (and those of similar idioms--Scottish, Quebecois, Cape Breton) is a long-term commitment that is best served by a lot of listening. Better yet is learning to play--or at least sing--the actual melodies of a bunch of tunes. Once you climb inside the tunes themselves, backing them up will become much more intuitive.

I would argue that the fluid and open-ended harmonic options are actually secondary to the challenge of developing a proper rhythmic approach to the tunes. There are some great accompanists who manage to do a fine job with a very minimal set of chord choices, but you can't play great backup without perpetual attention to the rhythm.

Again, there is a huge amount of variation and no reliable convention about the right way to do it. 

Listen to the way that master accompanists such as Alec Finn, John Doyle, Dennis Cahill,  Ian Carr, Dónal Lunny, (the late) Mícheál Ó Domhnaill, and our own Roger Landes approach the back to the same tune, and you'll be equally overwhelmed by the options for the picking/strumming hand, too. (I was about to write "right hand," but I realized that would knock out lefties like John Doyle and Dónal Lunny. 

And there are more rhythmic forms in Irish music, too. 

Bluegrass guitarists basically need to master the hoedown and waltz forms, but Irish and Scottish accompanists have to be ready to handle reels, single jigs, double jigs, slip jigs, slides, hornpipes, strathspeys, polkas, flings, waltzes, mazurkas, and more. 

And if you are drawn to the lovely crooked tunes of Quebec, you have dropped and added beats and measures to mess up the expectations of the conventional 32-bar form.

All of which makes the enterprise a lot of fun.

Like someone told me the first time I tried a pinch of snuff--don't panic, and don't swallow.

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## John Bertotti

Well I didn't evn know there was a 32 bar form, so I guess I am a step up!

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## Bertram Henze

> ...Like someone told me the first time I tried a pinch of snuff--don't panic, and don't swallow.


Actually, The Pinch of Snuff (aka The Bunch of Keys) is really not easy to follow, since almost each part is in a different key  :Laughing: 

Bertram

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## Harlan_55

Great discussion with lots of good adivce.  Having participated in two sessions in the last 3 days, I had forgotten how limited I am. The rythmic hand I do really well and as suggested, will be in sync with the bodhran.  Chordally, I get lost and find myself struggling unless it is a tune I have played often.

The guitar player at last night's session wove a wonderful mix of moving bass and partial chords into his accompaniment which is where I would like to end up eventually. So, I get the idea of contrapuntal supporting movement, however, getting my knowledge base familiar with those fingerings, scales, chord choices needs a ton of work. 

I am not sure where to start except to become a regular at sessions again... lol.. right now I would be one of those who should sit quietly and listen, which I did most of last nights session.  

My question is much like John's.  Since there are 1000's of tunes in the Irish/Celtic inventory. And long time session players delight in pulling out obscure tunes, it is almost impossible to build a tune list that suggests having or knowing " tunes inside out " which really comes from repitition. While I am learning and have la lot of tunes in my memory bank, it has been rare those same tunes will be played.

So, I am guessing, that for accompaninent purposes, given that my rythmn finds that groove, what should I practice to gain confidence of chordal and voicing choices ?

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## DougC

The easiest way to get started with Irish accompaniment is to play a drone, just one note that seems to go or fit thru most of the tune. Bagpipes drone, on one note mostly, and that's what you do, or should do on accompaniment. Look for D major, or A minor, or E minor. 

E dorian is a mode often used the 'chords' would be Em, D, Bm, G, A, C. 
A dorian is the other popular 'mode', So use Am, G, Em, C, D.

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## Harlan_55

Doug, 

 Thanks, that helps tremendously.  I will work with those progressions to see where they fit in and how.  I reckon I need to really work to develop my fretboard knowledge, and chordal theory, as well as modes.

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## Bertram Henze

> ...Since there are 1000's of tunes in the Irish/Celtic inventory. And long time session players delight in pulling out obscure tunes, it is almost impossible to build a tune list that suggests having or knowing " tunes inside out " which really comes from repitition. While I am learning and have la lot of tunes in my memory bank, it has been rare those same tunes will be played.


Luckily, there are not thousands of chord patterns. Any tune they pull out is one of three categories:

1 - known: play what you know
2 - unknown, but seems to go like a known one: carefully try if your known chord pattern fits. If yes, see 1, if no, see 3.
3 - unknown and unlike any you know: sit quietly, sip your drink, visit the restrooms and ask them afterwards for the name of that tune. At home, get the ABC from thesession.org, feed it to that concertina-converter site and find the chords against the Midi sound option.

That way your repository for categories 1 and 2 will grow and category 3 will occur less and less frequent.

Bertram

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## DougC

Another suggestion. Most Irish music accompaniment stays in the background and does not 'lead' even if the rhythm is really big.
 Jigs, counted in three's, usually use a heavy down beat i.e. ONE-two-three, TWO-two-three.

Reels use an 'up beat' i.e. one-TWO-three-FOUR, two-TWO-three-FOUR. 

Hornpipes are 'bouncy' and I usually count ONE-and-TWO-and, ONE-and-two-and etc.

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## Harlan_55

Aye, I grab at Number 1 and usually tend to play the melody, unless there are no rythmn instruments present, then I will usually switch to guitar, unless the mando rythmn seems to enhance the tune better.

Sometimes Number 2 works and I can figure out the progression that seems to support a set. Saturday, our slow session had a visiting uilliean pipes player who introduced us to some jigs and I was able, to my amazement find a progression that fit well, afterwards he was very complimentary.

Number 3 happens most when I attend sessions with primarily experienced players who have been playing for many years.  Their repertoire, at least to me, seems vast, and I can spend a majority of the session sitting and listening, especially if I cannot seem to find that tune center.  I have quite a few notated resources I refer to in order to build a larger repertoire. Time plus regular attendance to sessions will evetually allow me to participate in a more active manner. Though, it is overwhelming to constsantly find out how little I do know, yet amazingly see how far I have come.


John, I sure am glad you started this thread.  It is one Of the better learning threads here. Bertram, DougC, PaulK EdS, and the other contributors are giving this serious throught-provoking attention which is ultimately helping give direction that I and I am sure others need,

While I love getting a tune under my fingers, I also absolutely love it when the rhythmnic parts meld with and enhance the tune or set. I got the rythmn just gotta do it in the right mode :-D

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## John Bertotti

Doug C's post just made me reailiz I better learn the timing before anything else. So I like to pop this thread back up every month or so becasue some one, so far has seemed to realize something else to post and it is all like gold to me. I just hope it keeps on coming. The what is Celtic thread I think is what had me stirr this one up again because ti was maing people really think about it and the threads that make people think really seems to help the others threads in this forum. At least that is the way it seems to me. Now to go grab my Vega! Thanks everyone! Like Mickey Mouse says! "We got Ears, Say Cheers!" Oh I think I found my new signature!

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## Rando7

> Another suggestion. Most Irish music accompaniment stays in the background and does not 'lead' even if the rhythm is really big.
>  Jigs, counted in three's, usually use a heavy down beat i.e. ONE-two-three, TWO-two-three.
> 
> Reels use an 'up beat' i.e. one-TWO-three-FOUR, two-TWO-three-FOUR. 
> 
> Hornpipes are 'bouncy' and I usually count ONE-and-TWO-and, ONE-and-two-and etc.


Overall yeah, but you have to know the tunes and you have to listen to the melody players.  Some reels don't sound right accenting 2 & 4, sometimes it sounds good on the A part but not the B, etc.  Same with a lot of jigs, you just have to know the tune.

Hornpipes are played all sorts of different ways depending on the melody players.  I've played along to stately hornpipes, bouncy hornpipes, hornpipes played with an almost swing jazz beat and hornpipes at breakneck speed that might as well be fast reels.  Those melody instruments are out of control!

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## Rob Gerety

I've been sticking my toe in the water of Irish and other traditional music back up (guitar) and even a bit of melody on mandolin.  Its been a terrific experience and opened my eyes a great deal.  Fascinating really how much a good back up player improvises.  I feel just recently after a couple of years of listening a lot and struggling to hear the music well that I am beginning to get a feel for it.  But I still have a long way to go.  I find that it is very challenging for my intermediate skills and that the task of struggling with it has greatly improved my ear in other styles as well.

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## John McGann

A minute's listen is worth a month's verbalizations  :Wink:

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## Steve L

Irish/Scottish music has different harmonic resolution tendencies than people raised on American/pop styles are used to.  The study and application of tune backing is indeed a life's work.  But if you just want to get a sense of how the chords move in the idiom, you could actually start by learning some songs.  Things like "Bonny Woodhall", "Spancil Hill", "Cliffs of Dooneen", even old eye rollers like "Black Velvet Band" and "Whiskey in the Jar" would give you some sense of how the chords can move. You wouldn't want to back tunes in such a heavy-handed way of strumming, but the harmonic movement is very similar.

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## DougC

I went back to the beginning of this discussion and saw some books recommended. My all time favorite is Frank Kilkelly's 'Accompanying Irish Music on Guitar'

http://www.irishguitar.net/the_book.html
He says:
It is designed for those who have a basic grasp of some chords and some strumming ability on the guitar.   It is not assumed that you know much about the structure of Irish music and so this book will also be of use if you are a competent guitarist in other styles.

He shows examples of fingerpicking styles, strumming styles, jazzy styles etc. He knows famous players like Johnny Doyle and Daithi Sproule and he has done a great job of showing how it's done - in audio and in print.

As  John McGann says:
A minute's listen is worth a month's verbalizations. Kilkelly's CD is remarkable. The book is damn good too.

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## DougC

Kilkelly's book / CD has a lot of great examples that I transfer to mandolin. The audio part is just great to listen to as a regular music CD.

BTW I have no connection to this guy but it would be fun to meet him.

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## John Bertotti

Listening and comprehending what I am hearing otehr then a fun tune is the problem. Sometimes I can hear what's going on but can't transfer it to my hands. I asume it is experience related, so that is why I start threads like this. Every time I pick something up it helps in the long run. Thanks for all the replies everyone The knowledge base here on this board is incredible! That holds true to all the forums!

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## John Bertotti

So now I get the rhythm isn't cast in stone with many possible variations but it seems the melody is other then it has been said the accomplished player can embellish on the tune? Just how do they do this? How do they know what will be accepted and what won't?

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## Bertram Henze

> How do they know what will be accepted and what won't?


Like in all music, it should fit harmonically (that is the hardest part, in fact). If you follow your own signature line (which I fully second, btw), the rest is just trial and error.

If you want to go a safer path, listen to what famous players do, get a picture of what is considered normal and stay in the ballpark.

Bertram

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## John McGann

> ... it has been said the accomplished player can embellish on the tune? Just how do they do this? How do they know what will be accepted and what won't?


Altering short sections (phrases) within a tune rather than 'blowing on the chord changes'.

How? Listen to Michael Coleman's "Bonnie Kate". Look at the basic version of the tune via the internet or O'Neills Music of Ireland, and listen to how he elevates a really plain and potentially repetitive tune into something more beautiful.

Coleman is an essential figure in Irish music. He does things that would shock a lot of people who read tunes from O'Neill's and go to sessions, faithfully playing the book versions with ornamentation, thinking they are 'being traditional', without having experienced much actual trad playing through their ears. These folks often feel quite certain about what should and shouldn't be done with 'the music', while in truth, they themselves are the cutting edge of avant garde (as in "avant garde a clue!")  :Wink: 

I'd also point to my friend, accordionist Joe Derrane
 as a great example of incredible melodic invention within the tradition.

So how do you know what to do? If you want to stay 'close to the shore', don't mess with the melodies until you know a LOT of tunes. By heart, not showing up at sessions with a music stand. In any idiom, the tunes themselves teach you vocabulary and syntax of the language.

Listen a lot to a variety of great players on a variety of instruments. Some are quite conservative, and play a tune 3x with little variation other than ornamentation, and make fantastic music...others will put in little variations that add spice.

Compare and contrast various players playing the same tune. 5 different players are bound to give you at least 5 new ways to play any given tune. Get to know why a player like James Kelly sounds different from Tommy Peoples or Frankie Gavin or Denis Murphy or Sean Keane. There is a lot of room for individuality in the tradition (more on this below).

These slow downer thingies are quite a boon. Check out how pipers ornament-even at half speed, they are doing very complex and fascinating things. These make being a musical Sherlock Holmes a lot less frustrating!

After all that, 'what will be accepted" is a funny concept. Both Michael Coleman and Joe Derrane have their detractors for 'being different'. The concept of tradition can be a bit of a Catch-22, where a tradition only accepts innovation after it has been deemed "traditional". So, things 'outside the Pale' are seen as a threat (how's that for irony, Irish historians?!?!)*

An Irish session, with everyone playing melody, wouldn't be a great venue to assert your individuality. If you are playing a concert for a room full of listeners at Willie Week in Clare, it's going to be different than a house concert in Au Claire, Wisconsin, in terms of 'critical listeners' who'll know what you are doing (or even be able to tell one tune from another, to be honest!)  :Mandosmiley: 

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*  The famous "pale" in Ireland during the 14th and 15th centuries was a region in a radius of twenty miles (32 km) around Dublin which the English gradually fortified against incursion from Gaelic Ireland.

The nobility living in the four "obedient counties" regarded themselves as ‘Pale dwellers’ up until the mid 17th century until the coming of Cromwell who showed no distinction between the old English of the Pale and the native Irish who dwelled outside the Pale. However, a class culture where Lords or Gentry of the Pale regarded themselves as superior continued into the modern period and the term ‘outside the Pale’ has persisted to this day as a derogatory term for inhabitants who live outside the greater Dublin area.

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## Bertram Henze

An example of different approaches on one tune can be found in this SAW group discussion. Compare the versions played on mandolin, OM and zouk with the Bothy Band's original that Kyle Baker provided.

Bertram

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## Jim Nollman

Great thread. We take it into another direction entirely. Quite perverse. A great learning experiencing. And great fun to all but the purists. 

1. Playing just one song, we sometimes change a reel to a jig in mid-stream, then to a hornpipe, and finally to a waltz. Our favorite right now is starting St Ann's Reel per usual, then changing it to a jig, then to a waltz. By the way, it is a gorgeous waltz, especially the B part.

2. We've started playing some cajun material at our dances and concerts. In mandolin terms, it usually means cross picking the melody (or bass line) only on the D string while continually banging  on the open A. This adds a kind of dronal quality, which works great with Cruel Willy or Reel St Antoine. 
OK, now try that with Paddy on the Railroad. And once you get the idea, try it with something  more complicated, like the jig: Haste to the Wedding.  

And speaking of Haste to the Wedding. In our gigs, I often play the A part while the fiddle saws away on the B. And vice versa. Both parts have the same chord progression so it works well. And then try syncopating the vamp to a Bo Diddly beat. It boosts the energy so much, the dancers sometimes let out a huge whoop, when I start the vamp.

I know, I know. This is not an acceptable way of playing Celtic tunes. Then again, creative experimentation always implies a certain cluelessness.

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## Bertram Henze

> In our gigs, I often play the A part while the fiddle saws away on the B. And vice versa. Both parts have the same chord progression so it works well.


Such feats are grand if rehearsed within a band, because everybody knows what's happening. 
In a session, however, it might throw others off their track ("did I forget to repeat the A part?"). You know you've gone too far if you play on alone, everybody staring at you incredulously...  :Grin: 
Happened to me.

In our sessions, the one who starts a tuneset automatically gets a canonical guideline role, determining what the next tune in the set is etc. If that's me, I stick to more or less official versions because I know everybody is following me. On the other hand, if some of the others start a set of their own and I am just a redundant accompanist, I feel free to be the rodeo clown.  :Mandosmiley: 

Bertram

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## Rob Gerety

> 1. Playing just one song, we sometimes change a reel to a jig in mid-stream, then to a hornpipe, and finally to a waltz. Our favorite right now is starting St Ann's Reel per usual, then changing it to a jig, then to a waltz. By the way, it is a gorgeous waltz, especially the B part.


I am fairly new to this - I do play a bit of celtic stuff - both melodies on mando and back up guitar and I attend a fairly good local session as a listener on a regular basis. I also play a bit of contra dance music which is a very different but related thing.  

I must say that while I think the rhythm changes sound like they would be a blast for the players and a great exercise I'm not so sure I would enjoy it as a listener.  I think of this stuff as dance music.  Rhythm changes mid tune don't work real well for dancing.  But, as I said - I can totally see how much fun that would be for the players and I may try to get the folks in my little Thursday night jam to give it a try.

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