# Octaves, Zouks, Citterns, Tenors and Electrics > Four, Five and Eight-String Electrics >  Seeking advice on buying a 5-string mandolin

## InJapan

I previously posted something to the general discussion, but I'm still trying to figure out what type of instrument to buy, so I could use a little more advice.

I'm a 60-year old musician, but I'm new to mandolin. I have a piano and violin background. I've been borrowing a friend's 8-string acoustic mandolin, which I restrung with just 4 light-gauge strings. I like the feel of it. The 4 strings and lower tension are easy on my left hand grip and my fingertips, and having single strings doesn't diminish the volume too much.  (While I was at it, I also re-strung my ukulele with some Aquila 30U strings so it's now tuned GDAE, and I like the feel of that, too.)

Anyway, I now think I'd like to have something with a low C string, as well, so I'm leaning toward buying a 5-string mandolin, CGDAE -- perhaps a hollow body with pick-ups.

I'm in rural Japan, by the way, so I'm not able to just dash over to a big music store and try out lots of instruments. If I can make a trip to Tokyo or Osaka over the winter holidays, I may be lucky and find something here in Japan, assuming there's a store that sells 5-string mandolins. 

I'm thinking of also making a short trip back home to Michigan to see family next spring, so I could aim to get something then, assuming I can find a dealer with 5-string mandolins in Michigan. 

Online I've looked at pictures of instruments by Jonathan Mann and they look real nice. Unfortunately for me, he's in Tennessee, so it would mean ordering something without trying it out. I may do that.

I know it's a rather general question, but does anyone have advice on buying a 5-string mandolin (what's good, what's bad, where to buy, where to avoid)? I'd like something nice, and I'm willing to spend what it takes to get something that sounds great and is also easy on my left hand.

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## Bill McCall

Depends on your budget.  Emando.com has several Fender hollow body 5 strings (NFI) at, to me, reasonable prices.  Of course, several folks will custom make one for you.  Arrow Mandolin's 5 string is pretty gorgeous and plays acoustically as well (the pickup is suspended from the fingerrest and the top is fully carved.  (NFI) ~$4-5K I believe.

I think that 5 strings benefit from a slightly longer scale for 'better' C string response, but I'm sure others will have more detailed advice.

Good luck

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## Verne Andru

Are you sure you want a 5-string? The low C is more than just another string - it requires a completely different approach to playing than a regular 4.

I have a Fender FM60E that I quite like, but it took a fair bit of modding to get it that way. Out of the box they are difficult to get tuning stability and the pickup switch couldn't be in a worse spot if they planned to put it in the worse spot possible.

Gold Tone has a 5-string that looks reasonable if you want to go that way. If you get a Fender, be prepared to put some coin into it before you can do any serious playing on it.

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## jefflester

> If I can make a trip to Tokyo or Osaka over the winter holidays, I may be lucky and find something here in Japan, assuming there's a store that sells 5-string mandolins.


99% certain you will not be able to find such a store in Japan.




> I'm thinking of also making a short trip back home to Michigan to see family next spring, so I could aim to get something then, assuming I can find a dealer with 5-string mandolins in Michigan.


Only slightly more of a chance. Your best (perhaps only) option here would be Elderly Instruments in East Lansing. You can check out their inventory online: https://www.elderly.com/catalog/category/view/id/97/
Currently they do have a couple of 5-string Bluestars (electric) in different colors. Bluestar is located in Michigan and I'd venture to guess that the relationship between them and Elderly provides the only store in the country that actually stocks a 5-string electric mandolin. It is an incredibly niche instrument and since Fender discontinued the FM-60E some 10 years ago there just is no mass market instrument available. So anybody currently making them are individual (or small shop) luthiers who sell their products directly, rather than through stores. It's possible there may be relationships between some of these luthiers and local stores, but the only way to find out would be on a case-by-case basis.

Verne mentions the Gold Tone model. I guess that could be considered a mass market instrument, but the odds of actually finding one in a music store are very small.

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## Ted Eschliman

Agree with the notion that the 5-string is a whole different approach. I tend to think of mine as a mandola (or tenor guitar) with an E string rather than a mandolin with a C. That said, since mandolin is not native to you, your musicianship will take you far in making the adaptation quicker assuming youre equipped with light dose of music theory. Enjoy the journey!

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## Dave Greenspoon

I love the low C on Stealie. Ignore the three years of viola I had as a kid. I love the fact that I can go low in G.  My ears really love the extra grounding the C offers on barre chords like D and E. The increased range from the C string is more than just more notes and tones; it is a whole lot of _options_!

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## mandroid

I have a 4 string conversion tuned in Viola pitch CGDA.  magnetic pickup, EM150 
the hard way, luthier modified A50..


 few years back,  got a Penta System Pentaula  
 started out as  an A E B C# F#,   tried octave tuning the fat G is a bit floppy for a GDAEB.. 

  haven't played it in a while ,  mostly play old tunes with other old folks, ( turned 70 past sunday )

ought to shed it..    before the estate sale.. 



...

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## dang

> ( turned 70 past sunday )...


Belated happy Bday!

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## Daniel Nestlerode

As Ted said, a 5 string is no different than playing a mandola, except that the scale length is a bit shorter.  And, like him, I think of my 5 string as a mandola with an extended upper range.  It's an easy transposition.

This thread made me get my 5 string electric out of the cupboard and have a go on it (unamplified) late last night.

If you can find a JBovier ELS-5 or EMC-5 somewhere online, grab it.  It is head and shoulders above anything Fender made or makes.  Unfortunately, Jeff (Jeff Cowherd, the proprietor of JBovier) has stopped making them because of the recent Fender re-entry into the market.

best,
Daniel

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## Verne Andru

A thought on 5-string - I find the technique quite different from either mandola/tenor and mandolin. Because of the 5th tuning the extra string(s) require a very definite technique (i.e. you really have to focus) to ensure you're not hitting sour notes. I found the same moving to 7-string guitar. You have to be more definite on what you're playing and be good at muting out the unwanted string(s). While there are a few playable chords that use all 5, "few" is the operative word.

I think of mine as a tenor on the bottom and a mandolin on the top strings. String sets of 4.

I also have a short-scale 6-string guitar tuned in 5ths that bends the mind even more. It eventually became its own thing in my mind but thinking in terms of "string sets" of 4 was very helpful getting me up and running.

As of now there are no technique books on extended range 5th tuned instruments. Even Tiny Moore's book is strictly 4-string mandolin - quite a shame as he could have taught those of use trying to follow in his footsteps quite a bit.

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## mandroid

Novel is with 3 string chords,  the middle 3 strings is the root 1, high 3 the 5th, low 3 the 4th,
 all on the same fret..



 :Whistling:

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## JeffD

I have a five string and I play the potatoes out of it. 

Playing issues:

I hadn't realized how much my brain identifies G string as the "bottom string". In general its not a problem, but when playing my five string it catches me over and over again. 

Same problem if I am playing a tune I know a fifth down. My brain says "top string" and screws it all up. 

Something to get used to.

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## Joel Glassman

Funny, I don't find a C string makes things that different. I never play chords on the C because of its stronger booming sound. Its not that bad, but is likely a problem for most 5 string players. Otherwise the C is used for a few lower licks and usually palm-muted. In my soloing I'd tend to avoid E and C.

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## Jim Garber

> As of now there are no technique books on extended range 5th tuned instruments. Even Tiny Moore's book is strictly 4-string mandolin - quite a shame as he could have taught those of use trying to follow in his footsteps quite a bit.


I spent a few Swing Weeks at Ashokan with Tiny and even bought a Roberts 5 string from him back in the 1980s. He basically comped 3 and 4 string chords on the 4 lower strings (as Verne noted) and played single string breaks on the the upper strings, more or less. As far as I know, I don't think he really chorded using all 5 strings which i believe some players might do. Sort of similar to guitar players chording using more of the bass strings for comping.

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Gabriel J. Ferrer, 

Jacob, 

Verne Andru

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## thistle3585

> As of now there are no technique books on extended range 5th tuned instruments. Even Tiny Moore's book is strictly 4-string mandolin - quite a shame as he could have taught those of use trying to follow in his footsteps quite a bit.


Didn't Nile's Hokkanen have a five string book.

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## mandroid

mix tenor banjo and mandolin  chords and  they overlap.   :Whistling:

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## jefflester

> Didn't Nile's Hokkanen have a five string book.


He had the very rare (and long out of print) _Electric Mandolin_ co-written with Richard Thompson. Dunno if there is any 5-string specific stuff in there, descriptions of the book don't mention 5-strings and the book is basically impossible to find any way. The penta in _Pentatonic Mandolin_ refers to 5-note scales rather than 5-strings.  :Grin:

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## thistle3585

I have a couple of his books and I don't think that there is any five string in the ones I have but I thought he had done one.

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## Verne Andru

It would seem there is a void in the market for an instructional book on 5-string mandolin technique.

I don't have the cred, but others here may be able to fill the void and maybe even make a few dollars along the way. I muddled my way through it, but it would have been a nicer experience with a place to start.

Just sayin... :Mandosmiley:

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## Tom Wright

I have considered the idea of trying to assemble what I have learned. Inconvenient that much of my progress was in arranging Beatles songs, because they have easily heard bass lines to go with melodies, and because they have canonical versions heard on the recordings. As Tim Connell discovered, the rights to publish Beatles arrangements are very expensive.

But I do have a stock of go-to chords now, and arrangements of jazz tunes as well as some Americana songs. I am mainly working against my own aging clock to get as far as I can in playing skill before hands and fingers give out, but I suppose someone might want to read some stuff I know. I quail at the thought of trying to render my arrangements in tab, though, so I would have to stick to treble clef with extra ledger lines, and/or alto clef.

I would of course not refer to this as only a 5-string book, but 5- and 10-string. Among other questions we could consider in the book would be equipment issues, like scale length and amplification. My repertoire depends on mandolin scale length, and as far as I know 5-string electrics don't try to be longer-scale mandolas. Acoustic 10-strings are rare, and the only mandolin-scale ones I know of are Tom Buchanan's and the Brazilian bandolim makers.

I would welcome any suggestions, as I don't know how to address various skill levels.

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derbex

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## mandroid

Fan fret would be Ideal ... longer scale for the C, shorter for the E  to optimize tension on each..

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## Bill McCall

I don’t see the chord problem, if you can build 3 note chords.  Take the 3 basic shapes (1-3 or 5 in the bass) and build them like you would on the d-a-e courses.  Some work required.

I’ve just started on the d a e courses, and by applying the rules you already know, it’s just a solvable problem that takes work.

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## sonic

To be honest I don’t have a problem with chords. Yes there’s few that sound good (to my ears anyway) that use all five strings. I have an app for my iPhone ChordCalculusV3 that will find chords for Mandolin and Mandola. I have a five string octave Mandolin I built. To be honest because it has a twenty inch scale length. I find that I use double stops the low C string is iirc about the thickest you can get in a guitar string. Which makes it sound like a bass. Some of the three note shapes work better than others. But that could just be me. I’m not doing much more than noodling about with it trying to learn to play it better. I built a four string Mandolin too but my daughter has that tuned as a ukulele now. I am going to replace it but probably with a fan fret five string. Basically as a result of what I have learned from building the two instruments. I had lots of string changes to get the octave playable. I probably wouldn’t go for a twenty inch scale again for the low C it is too thick and thuddy for a lot of stuff I have tried to play, would work a treat for metal though. I have tried different scales on a fretboard calculator but not settled just yet as I need to print them out and see how they look. I know that this doesn’t help you finding one but it may help you decide what to look at.

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## Verne Andru

> Fan fret would be Ideal ... longer scale for the C, shorter for the E  to optimize tension on each..


I once thought so as well.

A few years ago I had a chance to try a fanned fret tenor built by cafe member Kerry, if I recall his name correctly. Nicely built instrument BTW. I found due to the nature of where notes group for playing in 5th's tuning, fanned frets actually made fingering very difficult and really unnatural.

This is one of those situations where it seemed like a good idea on paper but didn't work well at all in practice IME. For single notes, diads and some triads fanned frets are okay, but it was very hard to make it work for "normal" FFCP playing.

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## colorado_al

> Online I've looked at pictures of instruments by Jonathan Mann and they look real nice. Unfortunately for me, he's in Tennessee, so it would mean ordering something without trying it out. I may do that.


Back to the OP's original question, Mann electric mandolins are amazing! You will not go wrong with one. 
http://www.manndolins.com/em--4-5-8.html

JL Smith makes really good electric 5 string mandolins also:
http://www.jlsmithmandolins.com/
Review here in Jazz mando
http://jazzmando.com/jl_smith_5string.shtml

Here's a clip of Don Julin playing a JL Smith 4 string
http://www.jazzmando.com/sound/JLSmithdemo.mp3

The Gold Tone GME-5 is OK if that's all you can afford, but hard to find in stock

Anyhow, not to blow your mind or anything, but checkout what is for sale at emando
http://www.emando.com/shop/sales.htm

I like the Rono as well

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Gabriel J. Ferrer

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## sonic

There’s some nice looking Mandolins on there. I do like the Mann and JLSmith ones. Plenty of demos of the Mann instruments on YouTube. Not sure on the Fender ones, I have played an eight string to be fair it was comfortable to play. But if you search through the forum you will find quite a few posts on pickup upgrades for the Fender I could see why I wasn’t entirely happy with the tone. Don’t let that put you off though I believe there are some very good direct replacements available which won’t break the bank.

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## Jim Garber

Here's a nice used *Earnest Boomerang fanned-fret five-string* (say that five times fast!). NFI, as usual!

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## colorado_al

Bam! This looks like a sweet 5 string Mann.
$1800 
https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/117480#117480

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## JeffD

> Fan fret would be Ideal ... longer scale for the C, shorter for the E  to optimize tension on each..


Yes. This.


I would think that one would take advantage of this with guitars. I mean, with fan frets I would think you could tune a guitar in fourths all the way, at which point I might even be able to play the dern thing.

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## Verne Andru

> Fan fret would be Ideal ... longer scale for the C, shorter for the E  to optimize tension on each..





> Yes. This.


As I said, it sounds great on paper but doesn't work at all in practice. Try one out and report back.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about the C string. With the proper gauge and setup I've had no problems at all with my Fender FM60E. Plays and sounds great.

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## mrmando

> But I do have a stock of go-to chords now, and arrangements of jazz tunes as well as some Americana songs. I am mainly working against my own aging clock to get as far as I can in playing skill before hands and fingers give out, but I suppose someone might want to read some stuff I know. I quail at the thought of trying to render my arrangements in tab, though, so I would have to stick to treble clef with extra ledger lines, and/or alto clef.


Clef would be an issue, wouldn't it? I doubt a lot of people would want to learn to read alto so they can read your book, whether or not they should. Maybe switch between bass and treble. 

Sibelius will automatically generate mandolin tab for a standard mandolin. There might be a way of tweaking it for 5-string.

If you want help with designing the book, and setting up the tab, in exchange for an arrangement to sell some copies on emando.com, send me a PM.

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## JeffD

> As I said, it sounds great on paper but doesn't work at all in practice. Try one out and report back.
> .


Are you talking about problems with the instrument or with playing it?

I have played on fan fret 10 string acoustic mandolin, and that for only about an hour or so.

The intonation was perfect up and down side to side. I particularly liked how the strings all sounded like a family, similar tone characteristics across the instrument, similar feeling. 

What I didn't like was that it took a little getting used to.

But... I found that after a while, if I just stopped thinking about it, and just went forward more intuitively, I got it. It took about 15 or 20 minutes, but after that everything seemed to be where my fingers thought it should be, in first position, and up the neck. 

(Note: I am a fret marker addict, even on conventional instruments. I orient myself and get around up the neck by the fret markers. The fret markers were even more important to me getting used to fan frets.)

The aesthetics are cool, too, but take getting used to. The mind wants to conclude that the neck is twisted. I could see that the fan fret look might stick out in some playing situations.

If I played another I think it would take a few minutes to get back into it, but eventually I could probably slip back and forth between fan frets and conventional frets without much problem. My speculation anyway.

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## Tavy

> As I said, it sounds great on paper but doesn't work at all in practice. Try one out and report back.
> 
> I don't understand what all the fuss is about the C string. With the proper gauge and setup I've had no problems at all with my Fender FM60E. Plays and sounds great.


I'm sort of on both sides here: I agree that a properly set up C string on a standard 13 7/8" scale is just fine, possibly you could get a slightly sweeter tone from a longer/thinner C string, but even if you take the fan frets out to the max (about a 2" difference between top and bottom strings), the gauge doesn't go down that much.

On the other hand... I play a long scale 10 string cittern with fan frets, and I simply do not notice the difference between that one and the other "regular" instruments I play.  Other differences: scale length, nut width, neck shape etc make a much bigger difference to me.

Just be aware that building and setting up a fan fret instrument is a lot more work.... a _lot_!

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