# General Mandolin Topics > eBay, Craig's List, etc. >  eBay buyer and goods not received

## Petrus

This is just a question about a situation that has been bugging me for a while.  I sold a small item on eBay a while back, something in the $20-30 range (say, a tailpiece or set of tuners -- I don't want to be too specific) and the buyer claimed never to have received the item.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem refunding the money for the sake of maintaining goodwill (because these things do happen, especially with little items) but the tracking data clearly indicated that USPS delivered the item to its destination.  I communicated with the disgruntled buyer and reinforced this point and made several suggestions (is the buyer's mailbox unsecured? could another person living at that address have taken it? has the person spoken with the local mail carrier? etc.) but the person simply insists that, apparently, the tracking info is incorrect and that the item was absolutely not received.

Simple question -- should I refund the purchase price or stand on the tracking information record?  Granted, that data could be wrong, but then what's the point of logging tracking data if it's ultimately not reliable and can't prove anything?

I've contacted eBay and the representative tells me that since the tracking data shows the item as correctly delivered, I am not under obligation to refund anything, but I still don't feel right about it since we seem to have a disgruntled customer.  Of course if the data had shown the item _not_ being delivered that would've been a completely different situation and I would have refunded the money without a qualm.

Let's say the person is telling the truth; am I really expected to ignore the USPS tracking data on this person's word?  :Confused:

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## MC16

Personally, I would not refund anything. You do not know if it was stolen, delivered to the wrong address, or the buyer is trying to scam you.

At the very least offer to file a claim with the post office. Most shipments through USPS comes with $50 in automatic insurance. Giving the buyer the benefit of the doubt, if the package is missed placed USPS needs to be looped in on it.

If it is a scam, getting USPS involved usually gets these types of buyers off your back.

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Kris N, 

Nevin

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## mrmando

First instinct is that you are being scammed.

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## Bill Kammerzell

If the payment went thru PayPal they will back you on the tracking. I never had this happen. Yet.

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## Jess L.

> ... Let's say the person is telling the truth; am I really expected to ignore the USPS tracking data on this person's word?


I don't know, but I can tell you that in my region both USPS *and* UPS have a longstanding habit of simply dumping things off on people's doorsteps without even knocking, then they drive off leaving the package sitting there unprotected. They do that in *every* neighborhood in this region, whether a 'good' neighborhood or a 'bad' one. 

There have even been times when I specifically had an item shipped "Signature Required" but the delivery person chose to ignore that and left the package sitting outdoors with no signature whatsoever (at least not *my* signature). 

In the last 20 years I have had *two* instances of theft, *packages stolen off my front step* after the delivery person had left them there. Probably some punk on a bicycle cruising around looking for packages left out in the open like that. Thieves will steal anything, taking a chance that it might have something valuable in it. 

All of this could be easily avoided if more shippers would ship to PO Boxes. 

We do have a nice official Post Office box in town, that is precisely why we got a PO Box many years ago, for better security compared to a mailbox just sitting out alongside the road. (In this rural area, thugs sometimes go down an entire road and vandalize each and every mailbox on that entire road, many dozens of mailboxes.)

But so many shippers are still old-school and they refuse to ship to PO Boxes,  :Mad:  they think it's "protecting" themselves somehow. Wrong. Such shippers are leaving themselves open to having the stuff they shipped stolen off of porches after the UPS *and* USPS delivery person dumps things off without even bothering to see if anyone's home or not. Leaves stuff wide open to theft from neighborhood opportunists. 

A couple of years ago I finally could no longer put up with delivery-company incompetence and I went and paid some extra money to rent one of those mailboxes in town that gives you a "street address" (rather than a PO box address) as a workaround for businesses that refuse to ship to a PO Box. But, the "street address" type of mailbox costs a heck of a lot more than a regular Post Office PO Box, and I'm not sure I'm going to renew it when it comes due. I think instead, I'm just going to revert back to using our old longstanding PO Box instead, and if shippers can't ship to that, then I will buy from someone else who can. 

So, I don't have an answer to your question, but I can attest that sometimes things do get stolen even after they're supposedly "delivered". 

*The tracking system is broken and relatively useless, in my experience. All "delivered" means is that the package left the delivery truck, it doesn't necessarily mean that the intended new owner actually received the package.* 

I wish they (the shippers and delivery companies) would fix this, because it's an impediment to online/mailorder purchases. 

*Addenda:* I haven't dealt much with other delivery outfits such as *DHL* and *FedEx*, but the few times that I've used those services, they were **much* more professional*  :Mandosmiley:   :Mandosmiley:   :Mandosmiley:  and they actually knocked on the door, waited for someone to come to the door, and handed the package to the house occupant personally. If no one was home, they'd put the package back in the truck, after leaving a note informing the intended recipient how to schedule a re-delivery. Much better!  :Mandosmiley:  I think if I were a *shipper*, I would use those companies (assuming they haven't changed for the worse) because I would feel more confident that what I'd shipped wasn't going to get 'lost' somewhere. 

(I can understand why delivery persons would routinely choose to take the quicker method, if they can save a couple of minutes on each stop, and if they have like 30-50+ (???) stops per day, they're saving themselves a lot of time on each day's work shift, and maybe their bosses actually push for that because it reduces the payroll expenses. But that type of time-saving comes at the customers' expense, both the seller *and* the buyer. Incidentally, in years past I've worked *other* types of truck driving jobs (semi trucks) where fastness was pushed heavily by the bosses, even when it sacrificed safety or customer satisfaction, I didn't like that emphasis (not gonna take speed just so the bosses can make more money to buy yet another new Mercedes) and I found work with better trucking companies that had more balanced priorities as far as safety etc. Note also that I always worked on "percentage", I was never paid hourly, so the more drops I could make per week, the more money I made (no pay for waiting, no pay for sitting around doing nothing), but there are limits to everything.)

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Mando-Mauler, 

Petrus

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## Jeff Mando

I'm going through a similar claim on eBay over a $70 item plus shipping, total of $81.  He claims he didn't get it.  USPS says they delivered it on such and such date.  He cleverly waited two weeks after the delivery to file a claim with eBay, by the way.  I checked his eBay history and he joined eBay the same day he bought my item.  He has zero feedback. (I have almost 4000, all positive)  Obvious scam, to my eyes.  It will be interesting to see how eBay rules in this matter.  I think it is just a matter of a few days, at this point.  But, last time I checked, USPS tracking should be proof positive, in my favor.  

I agree a neighbor could have stolen it, if he lives in a bad neighborhood.  I had one situation where the guy's wife checked the mail on the way to her car to run errands and my item was in her car for two weeks before the buyer found it, so these things do happen, but in neither case, should you as the seller be held responsible, IMHO.

I'm like you, in the interest of goodwill, I have given small refunds to keep a customer happy, but then again, where do you draw the line?  $20, $30, $81?  Good luck with your decision.

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## Bill Kammerzell

I have never had the occasion when I shipped, requesting a signature, or something was shipped to me, where that signature was needed, that any delivery service left the package without a signature. On Presidents Day a Priority package came to me, by USPS, where the guy was working overtime. I wasn't aware they ever did that at USPS? The guy knocked extra long on my door, as he figured I would not be expecting the package when USPS was closed. I cannot recall not getting a package I was supposed to get, or vice versa.

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## Jeff Mando

> *The tracking system is broken and relatively useless, in my experience. All "delivered" means is that the package left the delivery truck, it doesn't necessarily mean that the intended new owner actually received the package.*


Good point, but as a seller, I feel my responsibility has ended once I drop it off at the post office/Fed Ex/UPS, whatever.  Short of driving 3000 miles and hand delivering the package, I don't know what else can be done, in a timely and cost-effective manner.

Needless to say, from the buyer's point of view they would feel my responsibility ends when it is in their hands and they are holding it.

I wonder what Judge Judy would say?  :Popcorn:

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## Jess L.

> I have never had the occasion when I shipped, requesting a signature, or something was shipped to me, where that signature was needed, that any delivery service left the package without a signature. On Presidents Day a Priority package came to me, by USPS, where the guy was working overtime. I wasn't aware they ever did that at USPS? The guy knocked extra long on my door, as he figured I would not be expecting the package when USPS was closed. ...


Maybe it's a regional thing. Here, this *entire county*, both the rural parts and what passes for town parts, are as I described earlier. Even USPS, if the box is too big to fit in a roadside mailbox, they'll leave the box setting on the step/porch regardless of whether anyone's home or not. Not just us, it's everyone in this area. Of course, this entire county *could* possibly be considered to be a 'bad neighborhood' lol. 

Even in remote rural areas there are many, many people who seem to 'need' more than what they have (i.e, thieves). 

A different rural area, where my folks used to live decades ago, up the road a mile or so was a household of thieves. The thieves would watch to see which cars drove past that afternoon (not many cars on those roads, maybe one or two per hour), the thieves had done their research and they already *knew which cars belonged to which houses* down the road, so when they'd see car "x" drive by they figured there was a possibility that the corresponding house "x" was unattended so they'd hop in their own car and go see. 

My folks lost chainsaws, tools, even had an entire engine and transmission stolen (it was already detached from one of our back field "parts cars"  :Whistling:  in preparation to install in another vehicle). 

One time, my dad took the usual daily-driver vehicle to town to buy some stuff for the horses. Sure enough, a few minutes after he'd left the driveway, here come the thief neighbors, driving right up the driveway as if they owned the place [1]. The thieves got out of their vehicle and proceeded to put their grubby paws on some items, but just then they got a *surprise*.  :Disbelief:  My mom had stayed home that time, and she heard the unfamiliar-sounding car pull up in the driveway, she went to the upstairs bedroom window and calmly propped her sweet sixteen (similar to this) on the windowsill pointed towards the yard, and she asked them "Can I help you with something?" They jumped in their vehicle, empty-handed, and backed out of that driveway so fast it was like their tails were on fire!  :Laughing:  LOL. Never had any problem with them after that. Incidentally, too far out of town for law-enforcement to bother with, even though the nearest house belonged to the brother-in-law of the county sheriff,  :Whistling:  they had the same issues with the thieves that everyone else had. 

_Footnote:  
1. Yeah a gate would *seem* to be a good idea but not necessarily so, because a "closed gate" sends the same message as a porchlight that's been left on: it can tell thieves "no one's home, come on in". In some ways, a closed gate is almost *more* of an invitation to thieves than no gate at all. Depends on how many other access points there are to the property. Larger properties are harder to secure all the borders._

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## Jess L.

> ... Short of driving 3000 miles and hand delivering the package, I don't know what else can be done, in a timely and cost-effective manner. ...


Use DHL or Fedex. That's what I will do if I ever have to ship anything again. Not sure about cost or convenience though, but it would be worth it to me just for better certainty & confidence. My admittedly-limited experience with *receiving* DHL and FedEx packages, is what I base this on, they don't do the drop-and-run thing that UPS and USPS do. Of course my experiences are just 'anecdotal' but that's all I got.  :Smile:

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## Jeff Mando

JL277z, wow, that certainly paints an interesting picture of "living in fear!"  Aside from moving, not sure what to suggest.  Seems like postal delivery is the LEAST of your problems.  My experience is quite different.  After living in large crime-ridden cities most of my life, we moved to a rural location about an hour from the "big city."  It is like living in the 1930's -- there is no crime, aside from the occasional domestic argument that ends in murder every two or three years.  Cops stop cars for expired tags, just to keep their ticket writing skills in practice.  I don't, but I could leave my instruments in my car after a gig and nobody would bother them.  Mail is safely delivered, as well.

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Bill Kammerzell

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## Jess L.

> JL277z, wow, that certainly paints an interesting picture of "living in fear!"  Aside from moving, not sure what to suggest.  Seems like postal delivery is the LEAST of your problems.  ...


Never really thought of it as "fear", it's just normal stuff, like swatting mosquitos or something, always been that way. Wouldn't want to move and couldn't afford to move anyway, everywhere else costs too much (there's often a reason why some regions' real estate is priced lower).

Anyway... I hope it turns out well for the OP and anyone else who's having to deal with packages that went missing. It's frustrating not knowing whether someone is trying to rip you off or if they have a legitimate issue.

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## HonketyHank

In our area (suburban, high density single family homes), the difference between a USPS and a UPS delivery is that the UPS driver will ring the doorbell before he drops the package on the stoop. USPS drivers won't. I wish they would.

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Jess L., 

MikeEdgerton

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## mee

I sell on Ebay and use priority with insurance to $50 and pay for extra insurance on big ticket items. I track the item myself and then check with purchaser when it shows delivered. I haven't had any problems there. But on the other hand, I find packages I have ordered dangling in a plastic bag off my mailbox by the road where anyone passing by could grab it. I have also found items sitting on my walkway halfway between the road and my house. I get neighbors mail in my box on a daily basis. I really don't trust USPS, I think at least for my area they have gotten sloppy and lazy. AS for your situation I think I would let Ebay and Paypal figure it out. If the person is scamming you, you don't want to encourage them, let it go on record with Ebay if they should try it again.

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Jess L.

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## Mandoplumb

I had a Flatiron mandolin shipped from Gibson. UPS sat it on the porch with Gibson name in big block letter facing the street. Fortunely I got home while it was still there but if I hadn't the tracking would have shown it delivered and it would have been correct as far as that goes. I said that to say this, in order to keep a good reputation one has to give the buyer the benefit of doubt, yes go for insurance if possible but sometimes we just have to eat the loss and move on.

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Jess L.

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## Petrus

Interesting experiences.  I've had instruments delivered and left inside the patio, which is not really secure.  Eventually I got wise and if it's coming by UPS, I go to their site (w/tracking number) and request they hold for pickup.  Usually USPS will leave a note in the mailbox and I'll usually elect to pick up the item at the nearest station (about 1/4 mile away.)  Smaller items that can fit into the mailbox I don't worry so much about.

In terms of sending something out, I do try to go for signature confirmation.  I think Priority is also a little safer but am not positive about that.

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## Bill Kammerzell

> Never really thought of it as "fear", it's just normal stuff, like swatting mosquitos or something, always been that way. Wouldn't want to move and couldn't afford to move anyway, everywhere else costs too much (there's often a reason why some regions' real estate is priced lower).
> 
> Anyway... I hope it turns out well for the OP and anyone else who's having to deal with packages that went missing. It's frustrating not knowing whether someone is trying to rip you off or if they have a legitimate issue.


Really? Little stuff like swatting mosquitos? You wrote about 20 paragraphs to describe just swatting mosquitos?

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## Jess L.

> Really? Little stuff like swatting mosquitos? You wrote about 20 paragraphs to describe just swatting mosquitos?


Guess it depends on what one is used to. Anyway, what I wrote was relevant to the topic.  :Smile:

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## Tom C

If I don't want something sitting out in front of my house, I have it shipped to my office. If it's something shipped to my house that may require signature (nothing expensive or worth anything to anybody else), I leave signed note on door to leave package. Now it's my issue if somebody takes it, but if the note is gone, I know it was delivered.

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Jeff Mando, 

Mando-Mauler

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## nickster60

I had a conversation with Cafe sponsor about this very issue. I had just had a buyer claim the same thing. The Cafe sponsor told me had more issues with eBay customers than from any other source. eBay has their buyer protection plan that will if they choose refund the buyer his money. You have proof it was delivered and you will also keep your head money. Maybe this policy is why this happens, dishonest people get items for free.

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## darrylicshon

I recently went thru two claims with eBay one I shipped and the buyer said he didn't get it , but USPS said it was delivered he took forever to pay, after many emails back and forth and escalating to a claim I finally won. The other one was a ibanez mandolin return it either got damaged in shipping or was before he shipped , we had worked a deal where he was going to give me a partial refund about half the cash, well after a few weeks waiting for it  , and him saying different reasons for not doing it, I flied a return, eBay gave me a shipping label for the return I shipped it. Tracking only said it left the post office and still says that. After about a month and a half eBay gave me my money back, but the only reason I think I won was using the eBay shipping label because they knew that it had the right address, I talked to the seller he said it never arrived, but who knows if he did or not , I have received packages and USPS forgot to scan it before they dropped it off , so I'll probably never know

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## Northwest Steve

Ebay and Paypal seems to error on the side of the buyer, to a fault. Almost always the seller eats it in my experience. I know a few business that do a lot of internet business and they will no longer take Paypal sue to this. I have bought and sold my share of items on other forums and ebay. I have almost quit paying for insurance on items. The shippers are very good at finding excuses to deny the claim and you really have no recourse. On an instrument I would still pay for insurance. With the price of insurance and the few items that I have received damaged I have decided self insurance is the way to go. A few things we can do to protect ourselves is to require that the buyer have a certain amount of transactions and a certain % of feedback. that way you don't get the fist timer/scammer. Also with the thefts from door steps and scams I require a signature on any package that I don't feel comfortable in loosing ($100 =/-). That way I have a starting point and an recipient period. I also think they is some more accountability on the carriers end (no wrong address), maybe they think is valuable?

To the OP's original question, if they file a claim I think either ebay or paypal will side with the buyer.

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Petrus

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## Roger Moss

This happened to me a month ago. I ordered two items from Amazon which were shipped separately but would be deliverrd the same day. Both had tracking numbers which I followed closely.  On the day they were out for delivery I watched for the mailman. He came and went with no packages. I went online and the packages were listed delivered. Suspicious I looked out the window to the building in back to see the mailman carry two packages into the building.  He left  but came back minutes later and picked up the packages. Expecting him I waited but no delivery. I called USPS and freaked out on the poor operator who promised they would be delivered. They arrived the next day.

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## Folkmusician.com

Crazy things happen during shipping. 

We have packages that are scanned delivered when received by the post office. Things get misrouted, mis-delivered, never scanned at all, etc... It is a small percentage, but since I ship a lot, I get to see all the worst case scenarios.

95% of the time, even the problem shipments turn out fine. Things that are scanned incorrectly, not scanned at all, appear to be lost, etc..   almost always still get delivered correctly in the end.

One thing that has proven to be true.

We get a significantly higher percentage of "lost" packages with eBay sales than orders through other channels. The packages are packed in the same packaging, processed through the same shipping software and labeled with the same labels, yet eBay customers are the only ones telling us that they are not receiving the packages.  Rather a strange phenomenon!  :Wink:

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## nickster60

There was a time when EBay was ripe with seller issues. The buyers were leaving in droves. To stem the tide the came up with the buyers protection plan. This policy IMO is the reason these fraud cases. If you know that you can keep the item and file a claim and get your money back.it is a win win for these sketchy characters. I still sell a few things on eBay but not like I use to.

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Folkmusician.com

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## 5bassman

About a year ago I sold a bass amp on the Talkbass forum. I shipped it USPS Priority. The tracking showed it was delivered but the buyer said he didn't have it. So he stopped his mailman and asked him about it and on that day there was a sub standing in for him. So the mailman asked the sub about it and he said that he left it on the porch. So the buyer got to thinking and knew there was a house on his street that had the same street name and first two street numbers but the last two numbers were switched. He knocked on their door and asked them about a package and they checked their back porch and, boom, there it was. The buyer in your case needs to do some investigating. If he refuses to, I smell a scam. I also looked up the street view on Goggle to make sure it's a house and not something fishy. Worth the few seconds it takes.

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## Bill Kammerzell

I do insurance. I do signature. No signature. No package. Just had a Cafe buyer refuse a package (mandolin)  without opening it. Wanted his money returned when the tracking showed the package was on its way back. He said "from here on it is between you and the post office". After I stopped laughing, and got up off the floor, I told him, when I had the mandolin in my hands, he could have his money. To cover myself, I contacted the Cafe and PayPal. Both agreed, no mandolin, no money. There are squirrely buyers everywhere.

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## Jeff Mando

We should note there is a difference between someone's wife saying they can't have a new mandolin and have to send it back and a full-fledged scam.  Small difference, I'll grant you -- both are a nuisance for the seller.

I recently sold an antique car on eBay and included 24 pictures and well as 8 long paragraphs of description.  I had every kind of disclaimer I could think of -- It hasn't ran in 7 years, it has rust, it needs a paint job, it needs tires, it is missing this and that, etc. -- I think I even said "NO CRYBABIES" -- even at that I had a very nice man who wanted to buy it from several states away and paid for it and picked it up in a timely manner.  When we actually met in person, he told me, "when I read your ad, I told my wife, this man has done a lot of buying and selling on eBay!"  :Grin:

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## Bill Kammerzell

> We should note there is a difference between someone's wife saying they can't have a new mandolin and have to send it back and a full-fledged scam.  Small difference, I'll grant you -- both are a nuisance for the seller.
> 
> I recently sold an antique car on eBay and included 24 pictures and well as 8 long paragraphs of description.  I had every kind of disclaimer I could think of -- It hasn't ran in 7 years, it has rust, it needs a paint job, it needs tires, it is missing this and that, etc. -- I think I even said "NO CRYBABIES" -- even at that I had a very nice man who wanted to buy it from several states away and paid for it and picked it up in a timely manner.  When we actually met in person, he told me, "when I read your ad, I told my wife, this man has done a lot of buying and selling on eBay!"


As I did. Every scratch, nuance and disclaimer, along with a 48 hour turn around. One day before the mandolin was to arrive, I was told he no longer wanted it. Oh well. It will sell. I will get my mandolin. He will then get his money. I might add, I told him to never contact me about a listing. He could offer me double the asking price and I won't as much as acknowledge the offer.

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## A 4

I am, right now, on the other side of this.  Ordered an item off of Ebay (not mando related - bathroom fan related), there were a couple of shipping delays, UPS then showed it was delivered.  There was someone home when they said it was delivered.  I tried to have them try and find it, but somehow my request was "cancelled," but without notifying me.  UPS is not being helpful and will only deal with the seller.  The seller sometimes replies to email, but not much help so far.  Seems like I am stuck.

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## Folkmusician.com

> Seems like I am stuck.


You can demand a refund for this, but if the seller is reasonable, I would give them a chance to resolve it on their end before making a formal complaint.

It takes around 8 days for UPS to complete a lost package investigation. In that time, the seller won't receive any updates unless the package is found.

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A 4

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## Stephen Perry

Demonstrates why explicit risk of loss terms are so important.

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## Folkmusician.com

Stephen,

I haven't looked into this, but I assumed one was bound to eBay and PayPal's terms by using their service.  Is this not the case?

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## Stephen Perry

I suspect so, if those address risk of loss.  PayPal has done some horrible things to us, so we prefer not to use.  Ebay has done weird stuff, too, so I prefer not to use.  Can't remember what terms annoyed me, but there were terms that annoyed me.  

The way I think of it is that I am arranging shipping for someone as a courtesy.  Risk of loss for all buyers passes to that buyer when the package leaves the door or is placed into the hands of a common carrier.  FOB my place of business.  Otherwise I am favoring remote over in person buyers.

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## Jeff Mando

> I suspect so, if those address risk of loss.  PayPal has done some horrible things to us, so we prefer not to use.  Ebay has done weird stuff, too, so I prefer not to use.  Can't remember what terms annoyed me, but there were terms that annoyed me.  
> 
> 
> The way I think of it is that I am arranging shipping for someone as a courtesy.  Risk of loss for all buyers passes to that buyer when the package leaves the door or is placed into the hands of a common carrier.  FOB my place of business.  Otherwise I am favoring remote over in person buyers.


Good points, Stephen.  I agree Paypal and eBay rules are beyond annoying, as a seller, but I still use them because the greater good is that I can sell instruments and related accessories to people in Europe, Japan, South America, etc., that I wouldn't otherwise be able to do business with.  eBay finds those people for me and Paypal takes care of the money transfer.  And, most of the time it is incredibly easy to accomplish.  AND YES, one guy in 500 is a stinker and pushes all the wrong buttons and I consider that to be the "cost of doing business" in order to make to other sales that went smoothly.

I agree shipping is a huge courtesy and takes a lot of my time to pack something correctly, but again, it is part of the deal to get a customer or specifically, the customer who will pay my price.

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Mandoplumb

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## Petrus

> I might add, I told him to never contact me about a listing. He could offer me double the asking price and I won't as much as acknowledge the offer.


I've banned a couple of buyers on eBay from being able to bid or purchase my listings due to problems with them in the past, but the proportion of problem cases is so far fairly reasonable (~ 2%) so I am continuing to use eBay/PayPal for now, until better options present themselves.  I read the eBay community discussion boards occasionally and you will find a lot of griping there mostly from long-time sellers unhappy with the constant modifications eBay makes to their rules, usually to sellers' detriment.  (Of course you're talking about a Cafe transaction which is altogether different.)

OTOH, most of us are buyers as well as sellers, so policies are always a two-edged sword.  I appreciate eBay's buyer protections and they are a major reason why I trust the site when I'm making purchases.  A seller's (and buyer's) feedback rating is also a significant factor and I always check that out before making a purchase.

I also check the boxes for buyer requirements when writing a listing, to limit potential problems.  I still had one item purchased by someone with 0 feedback, who had signed up to eBay the same day as they made their purchase from me, and paid with an eCheck.  Eventually the eCheck bounced (after the item was delivered) but luckily I got reimbursed by PayPal, thanks to their seller protection policies.

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## Stephen Perry

Petrus, fair way to do things.  I just hate having to go through all kinds of oddball activities if anything goes wrong.  My day to day activities include civil litigation, so anything that makes stuff more complex I try to avoid!!  Complex enough stuff every day (2 hearings, an end pin bushing and fit new, and a violin bridge).  I only have a few problems that way, mainly concerning condition.  When did something break?  Whose fault is it?  Who will pay?  

I suspect an issue I have is that I deal in contracts all the time, including the UCC. So I see a goods contract and I think UCC.  All these additional protections and checks are nice, but they overlay an existing and powerful system, which has strong and weak points.  On the other hand, I'm pretty much amazed that the average knowledge of contracts is so incredibly poor.  I knew 10x more than average or thereabouts before I even thought about studying law.  Likely comes with having been in business off and on for a while.

Push comes to shove, I want to know how I can find and apply pressure to someone I'm doing a deal with.  I'm sensitive to being cheated or lied to.  I have an email - call - demand - sue pattern that seems to work fine.  No point in messing around if there's a crook.  

But it's hard to distinguish crooks from the merely ignorant, or from people who learned most of what they know from TV, or from the rare situations where there's actually a legitimate problem!

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## Folkmusician.com

> but the proportion of problem cases is so far fairly reasonable (~ 2%)


My percentage is a bit higher than Petrus, maybe closer to 5%. This is my estimate not factoring in legitimate problems (which do happen, but like Stephen, I believe them to be rare). Of course, I am not restricting buyers in any way.  I personally have as much or more trouble from long time eBayers as I do with new accounts.




> But it's hard to distinguish crooks from the merely ignorant, or from people who learned most of what they know from TV, or from the rare situations where there's actually a legitimate problem!


I believe this applies to the eBay quite well.  Many buyers are not familiar with what they are buying and may have unrealistic expectations in regards to shipping, the product itself, its usage, etc...   String breakage is one. "I ordered this set of strings and one just broke. I can't believe this only lasted 2 weeks. What kind of junk products are you selling? This is just unacceptable, I want a refund!"

In these cases, I believe the customers really believe that the product is defective. These are probably good people that are simply not familiar with instruments. There are MANY versions of this. 

"My instrument didn't come with a warranty card or any paperwork (many of the brands do not include any paperwork)! Is this used? I have been playing 35 years and never received an instrument without paper work!".  

I don't doubt that the customer is telling the truth. They have bought numerous instruments that all came with paperwork. So they find it hard to believe that the one they just purchased from me, doesn't come with anything. Once this sets in motion, the trust is gone and even if they accept that this particular maker does not supply warranty cards, they now have a bad taste over the transition and buyers remorse sets in.  

The list goes on and on and these things can quickly escalate!   

These are not dishonest people and their expectations are not unreasonable if we are talking about normal consumer products. A new microwave that only costs $89.99, comes without even the smallest blemish anywhere. It functions flawlessly and includes paper work in 27 different languages. So it is logical for someone unfamiliar with the stringed instrument world to expect similar from the purchase of an instrument.

"what do you mean I need to tune it, I thought this was new and setup". 

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't make it any easier to deal with.   :Smile: 

The fact still remains! No other source of sales is nearly as problematic as eBay. For this reason, I do very little instrument sales there. It just isn't worth it and often isn't even profitable after the returns and "lost" packages".

I do run a fairly busy personal account selling off my decades of hoarding loot. I am constantly having to hit the refund button.   :Smile:

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## Seonachan

I once ordered a cheap thing on ebay and it was marked delivered, but didn't show up in my mailbox. I spoke to the local postmaster the next day, and she told me they scan packages as delivered when they're loaded on the delivery truck in the morning. Seems overly confident! The thing did show up in my mailbox a day or two later, but I suspect it was from a neighbor to whom it had been misdelivered.

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## Tobin

I have always had my packages delivered to my workplace (my employer doesn't mind).  UPS, USPS, FedEx, DHL, and even Lone Star deliver here every day like clockwork, and we have secretaries up front who physically receive packages.  So there's no stress about packages getting left on my doorstep or stolen.  And bonus: I don't have to wait until I get home to open up my goodies!

The only time it has ever been a problem was with a package a few years ago that was supposed to be delivered on Good Friday.  My company takes that as a holiday, so no one was here.  The UPS driver saw that our door was locked, so he took it to the business next door and left it with them, thinking that they would be kind enough to give it to us when we opened the following Monday.  He didn't leave a note on our door to tell us that.  

Well, I of course expected my package to be delivered on Monday, but it didn't show up.  Tracking said it was delivered.  This led to numerous phone calls, emails, etc.  It took about a week for the neighbor to remember they had a package that was supposed to come here.  But they could have just denied they had it, and kept it.  It really surprises me that the big shipping companies continue to be so irresponsible with packages.

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## 5bassman

> I once ordered a cheap thing on ebay and it was marked delivered, but didn't show up in my mailbox. I spoke to the local postmaster the next day, and she told me they scan packages as delivered when they're loaded on the delivery truck in the morning. Seems overly confident! The thing did show up in my mailbox a day or two later, but I suspect it was from a neighbor to whom it had been misdelivered.


Maybe she meant that they are scanned when loaded on the truck as "out for delivery". I'm retired and if I have a something coming that day that is too big for the mailbox I will meet my mail lady out in the driveway where she pulls into. (I can hear her truck coming up the street). I'll watch as she scans it before handing it to me. I've also met her at the mailbox with a large package to be shipped and she'll scan it before putting it in the truck and I've witnessed her scan stuff before handing it to me at the mailbox too. I check tracking religiously when I'm expecting something. Early the morning of delivery it will show up as "out for delivery " and checking it minutes after delivery it'll show delivered. If insured it will sometimes say "handed to customer ".  So I'm sure it depends on where your located and how that office is run, loose or tight

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## Bill Kammerzell

> Maybe she meant that they are scanned when loaded on the truck as "out for delivery". I'm retired and if I have a something coming that day that is too big for the mailbox I will meet my mail lady out in the driveway where she pulls into. (I can hear her truck coming up the street). I'll watch as she scans it before handing it to me. I've also met her at the mailbox with a large package to be shipped and she'll scan it before putting it in the truck and I've witnessed her scan stuff before handing it to me at the mailbox too. I check tracking religiously when I'm expecting something. Early the morning of delivery it will show up as "out for delivery " and checking it minutes after delivery it'll show delivered. If insured it will sometimes say "handed to customer ".  So I'm sure it depends on where your located and how that office is run, loose or tight


For the most part this has been my experience. If I don't meet the truck I know the mail lady brings it to my door, if it's too big to put in the box. She also knocks hard. I also know she appreciates me meeting her truck, especially when its a large heavy package, because I carry it, and save her the trip. She always scans. She generally gets a kick out of how I chart the tracking too.  :Laughing:

----------

5bassman

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## Seonachan

> Maybe she meant that they are scanned when loaded on the truck as "out for delivery". I'm retired and if I have a something coming that day that is too big for the mailbox I will meet my mail lady out in the driveway where she pulls into. (I can hear her truck coming up the street). I'll watch as she scans it before handing it to me. I've also met her at the mailbox with a large package to be shipped and she'll scan it before putting it in the truck and I've witnessed her scan stuff before handing it to me at the mailbox too. I check tracking religiously when I'm expecting something. Early the morning of delivery it will show up as "out for delivery " and checking it minutes after delivery it'll show delivered. If insured it will sometimes say "handed to customer ".  So I'm sure it depends on where your located and how that office is run, loose or tight


She may have been wrong about what she was saying, but she did plainly claim that they scan tracking as delivered when they're put on the truck. I even pointed out the problem for filing a claim if it isn't actually delivered, and she got what I was saying. To be clear, this was not a big-ticket item and I wasn't raising an indignant fuss, and she was helpful. But there was no confusion about what scanning status we were discussing. In fact her guess was that the package (which was small) may have slipped somewhere unseen in the truck, not that it was delivered somewhere else and scanned appropriately.

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## Stephen Perry

I had a lady call to arrange for having her daughter's violin tuned.  She'd been playing it a few months, and mom thought it was time.

Not really sequitur, but has to be in there in anything about customers!!!

----------

Bill Kammerzell, 

Jess L.

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## Bill Kammerzell

> I had a lady call to arrange for having her daughter's violin tuned.  She'd been playing it a few months, and mom thought it was time.
> 
> Not really sequitur, but has to be in there in anything about customers!!!


Didn't you explain it would be best to have the builder do that? My ex son-in-law still takes his mandolin to a music store for his yearly string change.

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## LadysSolo

> Didn't you explain it would be best to have the builder do that? My ex son-in-law still takes his mandolin to a music store for his yearly string change.


He changes strings? You mean they don't last forever?   :Laughing:

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Bill Kammerzell

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## Bill Kammerzell

> He changes strings? You mean they don't last forever?


I went to the Del and Dawg show in Nashville last year. Early part of 1st set David Grisman was tuning at the end of just about every song. At one point he looked out at the crowd and said, "I don't know what's going on? They told me it had been tuned at the factory, when I bought it."

----------

darrylicshon, 

Jeff Mando

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## 9lbShellhamer

About 2 minutes ago, a mailman just dropped off a package to my front desk clerk and walked out.

A minute later my front desk person looked at the package and realized it was not ours. It was the wrong address. 

It happens...

the real question now is the hit of reimbursing the person who may or may not be scamming you worth the hit of their potential bad review on your ebay account. 

Bad situation... At least it's a small hit though. Best of luck.

Maybe the delivery service can refund you.

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## MC16

> About 2 minutes ago, a mailman just dropped off a package to my front desk clerk and walked out.
> 
> A minute later my front desk person looked at the package and realized it was not ours. It was the wrong address. 
> 
> It happens...
> 
> the real question now is the hit of reimbursing the person who may or may not be scamming you worth the hit of their potential bad review on your ebay account. 
> 
> Bad situation... At least it's a small hit though. Best of luck.
> ...


Has this gone through eBay's resolution center? Head that route before issuing any refunds. Also send the buyer to USPS to file a lost package claim. Before those possibilities have been exhausted do not issue any refunds. 

If you get hit with bad feedback you can petition eBay to remove it.

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## Timbofood

:Laughing: That's it, I'm never buying anything which needs to be delivered again! Never shipping to anyone ever again either! All business must be face to face!

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## Bill Kammerzell

> That's it, I'm never buying anything which needs to be delivered again! Never shipping to anyone ever again either! All business must be face to face!


Lol! Well, you know.... before the internet that is what we did most all of the time. Outside of the occasional catalog sale, we went to a shop and tried the stuff out and bought or not.

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## MC16

> That's it, I'm never buying anything which needs to be delivered again! Never shipping to anyone ever again either! All business must be face to face!


Yeah, but now I can go shopping without pants. When I try to do that in person people throw vegetables at me.

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Jess L.

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## AndyPanda

I'm a multi-instrumentalist (just starting to learn mandolin) and most of my instruments were bought back in the 60's-70's from newspaper classified ads (or Big Nickle ads) and driving 50-200 miles to see the instrument (often sold by the time you got there - no cell phones) - face to face and cash.   It was more effort than ebay - but you could score fantastic vintage stuff if you watched the ads and didn't mind gambling a 2-3 hour drive on something that might not pan out. Sellers had no easy way of knowing what that old instrument under the bed was worth.

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Jeff Mando

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## Jeff Mando

> That's it, I'm never buying anything which needs to be delivered again! Never shipping to anyone ever again either! All business must be face to face!


I know you're joking, Timbofood, but imagine, if you can, just 20 years ago, before we had a functioning internet and most sales were done face to face.  That really limited most people's selection.  A lot has changed for the better.  Of course, selection comes at a price both in terms of scams as well as the "mountain" of instruments destroyed by careless shipping in the last 20 years.  Instruments were probably happier when they got to live out their "lives" in their own hometowns!"  :Mandosmiley:

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## jesserules

Yeah, 20 years ago Elderly and Mandolin Brothers and a bunch of other places sent out catalogs printed on "paper" and if you saw something you liked the look of you had to send them a "check" by "mail" and they would send you the instrument via "UPS" or somebody. It was rough!

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## Jeff Mando

> Yeah, 20 years ago Elderly and Mandolin Brothers and a bunch of other places sent out catalogs printed on "paper" and if you saw something you liked the look of you had to send them a "check" by "mail" and they would send you the instrument via "UPS" or somebody. It was rough!


Yep, one line descriptions with no pictures.  If you were serious you made a phone call and asked for Polaroids to be sent.  If you liked it, you put it on hold until your check arrived and the instrument could be sent.  Nobody got in a hurry back then....

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## jesserules

IN THE FUTURE - we'll remember these days and shake our heads in disbelief at our patience, while waiting for the seller to load that 1923 F-5 into his 3D matterfax so you can print it out on your end & start playing.

But even then - "I sent a payment five minutes ago and it's still not here!!!"

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## lonestar_shawn

I had a package a while back (not music related) that I was watching closely through the tracking system online, and I was home on the day it was supposed to be delivered.  I was puzzled because at some point the tracking system was updated to say "delivered," and I never heard the doorbell.  I went and looked all around the house and couldn't find a package anywhere.  I called the shipping company, and their status showed the package was delivered to the house next door.  I went next door and there was my package.  I have no idea why they delivered it to the wrong house and then updated the system to reflect that - you would think in that process they would have realized they weren't delivering to the right house.  The point is, the status can say "delivered" and that's no guarantee that it was actually delivered to the right place and the buyer got it.  I would follow up with the shipping company if you haven't already and see if they have any more details in their system.

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## Petrus

> The point is, the status can say "delivered" and that's no guarantee that it was actually delivered to the right place and the buyer got it.  I would follow up with the shipping company if you haven't already and see if they have any more details in their system.


No question this can happen. I was just wondering who bears the responsibility in such cases, the sender or the recipient.  As the seller, I may have taken out shipping insurance, but that will carry no weight (so to speak) with the shipper if their system shows the item delivered, even if wrongly. Legally, there's not much the seller can do if the tracking system shows an item delivered.

I think the intended recipient is in a much better position to verify what may have gone wrong on the far end, as several examples in this thread have shown.   But that's no guarantee the item will actually be found.  Still, it's a bad situation for all parties.

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## lonestar_shawn

> No question this can happen. I was just wondering who bears the responsibility in such cases, the sender or the recipient.  ....


My personal opinion: whoever paid for the shipping is the one responsible.  If the seller sold the item for "x number of dollars shipped", the seller chooses the shipper and options, then the seller is responsible.  In this case the buyer has no involvement until the item is in their hands.  If the buyer pays for shipping separately and they choose the carrier and options, then they are the one responsible.

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## Mandoplumb

> My personal opinion: whoever paid for the shipping is the one responsible.  If the seller sold the item for "x number of dollars shipped", the seller chooses the shipper and options, then the seller is responsible.  In this case the buyer has no involvement until the item is in their hands.  If the buyer pays for shipping separately and they choose the carrier and options, then they are the one responsible.


Totally agree. If I order something I expect the seller to make all decisions on getting it to me even if I pay shipping which I don't oppose. I consider my responsibility starts when item is in my hand.

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## Stephen Perry

Problem is that's not the default position under the UCC as far as I can tell.  The default is FOB shipper.  

In a retail trade this makes sense.  Seller hands the item to you or your agent.  You walk out with it, drop it, it's your loss.  Seller gives custody to your agent, the shipping company, it's out of his control and risk of loss generally passes to you.  If the seller were driving the item to your house and handing it to you, then that would be on a level with taking responsibility for loss in shipping.

I highly urge folks to look to terms ahead of time and to understand the UCC governing sales of goods from merchants to you.  Pretending that things would be right if they were some different way, or guessing they favor you, or otherwise engaging in fantasy isn't going to help, push come to shove.  

Not my personal preferences or anything, so don't ding me.  Just learn UCC article 2 a bit and you'll see.  

While you're at it, look at bailee liability.  I have a case now involving bailee liability with losses of over $20,000.  Hinges upon who posted what, who said what, etc.  Really want your $2500 or $5000 mandolin stuck in some kind of dispute?  

Quick look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_of_loss

It's actually best to have separate insurance, rather than the non-insurance "offered" by the carrier.  The Carmack Amendment preempts a lot of state law, and proves to make claims against carriers a bit problematic.  See, e.g., http://corporate.findlaw.com/busines...ility-for.html

So, the default is it's yours when the seller gives it to FedEx or UPS or the Postal Service.  When it arrives broken or lost it's your loss.  Unless you contract otherwise.  If you think the shipper is at fault, you fall under the Carmack Amendment and the carrier will blame the shipper's packaging.  The shipper will have a standard system that is good and will state that the shipment was passed to the carrier in suitable condition and properly packed.  The shipper is in state X.  You are in state Y.  Your damage is $3000.  How much is your attorney in your state going to charge you?  Are you better off suing in state X?  How much is that going to cost you?  Are you going to rope the carrier in?  Better look at the terms there.  Might well be an arbitration requirement.  I imagine your transactional costs in making this kind of claim usually exceed the value.  

Now the carriers are OK once fault is shown. I have had strong tubes snapped by a conveyor system.  Tire tread marks on a box.  Fork lift tine puncture clean through a box of guitars.  Boxes crushed.  But usually I see on the way to me headstock issues from whiplash or bows that weren't secured and slammed around, or a box made of thin cardboard.  Claims will be denied regardless.

So if' you're buying an expensive thing get some insurance for that shipment.  Not just a valuation statement for a carrier. 

Does it work?  Yes.  When I used to carry such insurance I had an $8000 cello replaced.  A nice baroque violin bow replaced.  And so on.

Please don't assume because it feels right that you know how this stuff works!!!

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40bpm, 

Petrus

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## Folkmusician.com

I fully agree with Stephen's post, but will add one thing.   Merchant accounts come with a long list of terms that sellers agree to, some of which is shipping terms and arbitration in disputes. For the most part, you are reasonably protected if paying with a credit card.  Can the seller come back and sue the buyer after losing a credit card dispute?  Maybe, but then we are back to, is it worth it?

Here is an excerpt from my merchant account agreement:

"We will have the final decision-making authority with respect to Claims, including without limitation claims for refunds for purchased items that are filed with us by you or your customers. You will be required to reimburse us for your liability. Your liability will include the full purchase price of the item plus the original shipping cost (and in some cases you may not receive the item back). You will not receive a refund of any fees paid to us."

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## Jess L.

> ...  Seller hands the item to you or your agent.  You walk out with it, drop it, it's your loss.  *Seller gives custody to your agent, the shipping company*, it's out of his control and risk of loss generally passes to you. ...


Question: 

If the shipping company is *my* agent, then why am I not allowed to *select* a shipping company of my choosing? *I thought the shipping company was the *seller's* agent?*

Since so many online sellers FORCE customers to use the SELLER'S choice of shipping company, sometimes without even bothering to tell the customer which one *prior* to placing the order (can be an important distinction if special instructions are needed for delivery with a particular carrier), so how is it then the *customer's* fault when the two-bit unreliable shipping company that was *selected by the seller* fails to perform the job that the seller essentially hired them to do? 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it seems like the customer gets screwed both ways: (1) customer very seldom gets to choose a preferred less-troublesome shipping company & instead is forced to use whichever shipping company the seller is already cozy with, and (2) then when something goes wrong with the seller's shipping company, the *customer* is supposedly liable. So the sellers get to have their cake & eat it too, at the expense of the customer, is that how the law is written? 

Anyway, I'm not ragging on _you_, that would be like "shooting the messenger", you're just telling us what the existing laws are, even if the laws seem illogical & backwards to some of us out here in the "customer" category. So, thank you for the legal perspectives on things.  :Smile:

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## Mandoplumb

I understand that the law is more complicated than the way I look at things. Really more complicated than it needs to be. At best in what we are talking about and in it's simplest form  the package is the sellers responsibility until the carrier picks it up then it's his responsibility until he presents it to the buyer. In the simplest seniero the only question would be possibly when did the damage occur. That is the spirit of the law, the common sense approach. With our courts and lawyers and people doing anything they can to avoid responsibility for their action or accidents I understand that there will be denials and suits and cost exceeding value, one reason I do as much buisness as I can in person looking the other fellow in the eye. That always eliminate problems and it can't always be done but is best if possible.

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## Folkmusician.com

UPS terms:
https://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf

“When a shipper declares a value in excess of $100, it does not receive any form of insurance. Shippers desiring cargo insurance, all risk insurance, or another form of insurance should purchase such insurance from a third party.”

Yes, it really says this!

----
– $1,000 per Package for Packages shipped by a Third#Party Retailer if no high#value control log was provided to UPS on tender of the Package;
– $1,000 per Package for a Package processed for shipment prior to tender using a UPS Shipping System and tendered to a UPS driver, unless a UPS high #value shipment summary
is obtained by the Shipper or person tendering the Package and signed by the driver upon tender of the Package;

Say you insure your package for $4000 and do not get a signed High Value Shipment Summary. It is only covered for $1000. (doesn't apply if you ship package at UPS office).

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## Stephen Perry

> I understand that the law is more complicated than the way I look at things. Really more complicated than it needs to be. At best in what we are talking about and in it's simplest form  the package is the sellers responsibility until the carrier picks it up then it's his responsibility until he presents it to the buyer. In the simplest seniero the only question would be possibly when did the damage occur. That is the spirit of the law, the common sense approach. With our courts and lawyers and people doing anything they can to avoid responsibility for their action or accidents I understand that there will be denials and suits and cost exceeding value, one reason I do as much buisness as I can in person looking the other fellow in the eye. That always eliminate problems and it can't always be done but is best if possible.



I generally call people who refer to "the spirit of the law" as defendants.  Dealing in person doesn't eliminate contract law.  The UCC isn't complicated, it just has lots of understandable pieces.  One of the absolute easiest and simplest pieces is who bears risk of loss in the absence of a contract where goods are shipped.  It is completely transparent.  The buyer bears the risk of loss when he takes possession after exchanging money and walks out of the store or when the seller delivers the goods to a common carrier. 

I KNOW people don't like this, and they object a whole bunch. I've been hearing these objections since the mid 1990s when i started shipping things.  It's just the way it is, unless you get an agreement saying otherwise, which will take precedent.  

I bring this feature of the law in the US up because it hits people hard every day, including sometimes hitting people here I suspect.  

The better technique in dealing is to handle the risk of loss effectively by a) contract or b) insurance or c) counting on the Carmack Amendment.

People really should look this stuff up.  It's like warranties.  Did you know there's a Federal warranty act?  You should.  It's common knowledge among those who give and enforce warranties.  

This stuff isn't rocket science.  It's actually pretty straightforward, and everyone who favors the remedies sees that.  The huffing and puffing is from those it doesn't favor.  Lest you think I'm biased, I've argued cases on both sides of most of these issues at one point or another.  It's just the way it is. Jump in the ocean, swim with sharks.  Usually they leave you alone but best to look before you leap and keep your eyes open (I've actually seen a decent sized shark close while swimming, just like I've battled with damaged goods claims.  Does happen!!)

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## Jeff Mando

Two thoughts concerning eBay:  Regardless of the "law" eBay buyers can 'bypass" the system and complain to eBay/Paypal and they will be heard, and more than likely win.  On top of that is the unspoken threat of feedback extortion on the part of the buyer, forcing the seller to take their claim more seriously than often warranted.

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Folkmusician.com

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## JeffD

> That's it, I'm never buying anything which needs to be delivered again! Never shipping to anyone ever again either! All business must be face to face!


It seems to me if you are not in the business of selling objects to people, and you have an instrument you want to move along, it is MUCH easier to put it on consignment at a local busy music store. Perhaps you don't end up with quite as much money, and you have to be patient, but also you don't worry or hassle. Worth it IMO.

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## JeffD

> Please don't assume because it feels right that you know how this stuff works!!!


There is some take away wisdom right there. That should be a tattoo on my forearm.

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## Stephen Perry

> Two thoughts concerning eBay:  Regardless of the "law" eBay buyers can 'bypass" the system and complain to eBay/Paypal and they will be heard, and more than likely win.  On top of that is the unspoken threat of feedback extortion on the part of the buyer, forcing the seller to take their claim more seriously than often warranted.


The various agreements with eBay and PayPal trump the UCC - that's why they are there, with respect to terms they cover.

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## Stephen Perry

> It seems to me if you are not in the business of selling objects to people, and you have an instrument you want to move along, it is MUCH easier to put it on consignment at a local busy music store. Perhaps you don't end up with quite as much money, and you have to be patient, but also you don't worry or hassle. Worth it IMO.


Unless you're a merchant, UCC doesn't apply.  But you may be a merchant not know it.  It's all there in black and white - although attorneys do spend most of their time in that narrow gray zone!

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## Mandoplumb

Mr Perry are you saying that if I buy from you, you ship to me via a third party that you hire and pay to deliver said object to me that third party is operating as MY agent? You have the knowledge in this field so I'm not arguing, that just seems so wrong I'm wanting to make sure I understand you.

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## Stephen Perry

mandoplumb, I act as your agent in arranging for shipping and the risk of loss passes to you upon delivery to a common carrier, in the absence of an agreement to the contrary, under the UCC.  If I am a merchant.  The shipper is simply acting as a shipper and claims are covered under the Carmack Amendment.  That is my understanding, and not legal advise.  

It makes sense from the walk in v. order remote perspective, where title changes as soon as the seller gives up the item.

You should look into bailee liability and the seizure of assets for this and that.  That will give you nightmares, too.

But places like eBay have default contracts that I understand (nobody is paying me to figure it out) would have priority ahead of the UCC. UCC provides a default backdrop for contracting in goods by merchants.

OK, let me get some backdrop.  There's shipping of goods.  Someone in Pentaluchi wants to buy something from a firm in Mantanzia, two states away.  The parties communicate, there's an invoice or something documenting that there's some kind of contract.  The firm in Mantanzia sends over the gizmo via Mockturkle Shipping Co.  The gizmo isn't what the feller in Pentaluchi thought he was getting, or it's broken, or there aren't as many units as he thought should be there.  Now we could have a situation where there we no rules and everyone argued whatever theory they could.  Which is how it feels in some other situations. But this is a regular and common thing, so there's a body of backup rules where the details weren't spelled out.  People who are merchants mostly know about them, buyers are presumed to know about them.  Simplifies trading a great deal.  That's what the UCC is, where merchants are selling things that governs offer, acceptance, etc.  Breach.  Remedies.  It's pretty useful.  Should learn it.

Now let's see.  Bosco an individual, thinks he's got a Grandolini violin.  Describes it as such without conditions.  Sells it to Fancy Buyer for $45000.  Fancy Buyer wants it insured, so he takes it to Hot Shot Violins in Chicago, who inform him it's really a copy by Pretty Good Fakers, Inc. worth $1500.  Fancy Buyer sues Bosco for $45000 less $1500.  Fancy Buyer wins and because Bosco is an individual, executes and takes away Bosco's toys.  Bosco was a friend of mine and did get hit in the 5 figures.  He didn't even realize he was a "merchant" subject to the UCC.  And that's a standard remedy.  

It's all online.  I highly recommend reading about contract law if you're going to sell a bunch of things online or otherwise!

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## Mandoplumb

I don't think I'll buy anything else that has to be shipped. At least if in person I know when it's mine and any dispute can be settled the old-fashion way if I can reach his nose.

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## pheffernan

> It seems to me if you are not in the business of selling objects to people, and you have an instrument you want to move along, it is MUCH easier to put it on consignment at a local busy music store. Perhaps you don't end up with quite as much money, and you have to be patient, but also you don't worry or hassle. Worth it IMO.


Spoken like a man who rarely sells an instrument.  :Laughing:

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## Folkmusician.com

> I don't think I'll buy anything else that has to be shipped. At least if in person I know when it's mine and any dispute can be settled the old-fashion way if I can reach his nose.


Over my career as a merchant (20 years now), I have read through the laws a few times, and I also see where the general public has very little knowledge of the actual laws. I would be clueless if not for being in the business and researching it. Given that problems are almost always resolved on their own, there is little need for the average person that buys and sells a few instrument to be overly concerned with it.

But here it is:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2

It pretty well covers everything and is not weighted toward the consumer. Keep in mind, that dealers are usually in various contracts that limit their rights under the UCC. These being the venues we sell, method of payments, etc... Our contracts with these channels and services override some of our rights under the UCC.

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## Stephen Perry

The problem some people face with selling a few instruments is that, should my client be benefited by it, I may portray that individual as a merchant, which might work, and bring the UCC into the equation.  So even selling a few instruments in a year may expose one to being subjected to the UCC.  Or in any instance, being forced to defeat a claim under the UCC.  Anyone who doesn't really know what they're doing might want to tread cautiously into the domain of more than a few (very few) casual sales.

People are easy to get along with until something goes sideways, and then the law finds a way.  Best to be clear up front.

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## Petrus

Thanks for the thorough (if sobering!) legal-eagle info, S.P.  I'm a little paranoid now, but I suppose forewarned is forearmed or something.

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## Stephen Perry

Petrus, exactly.  There are short descriptions, flow charts and such.  Some deals have to be in writing that's signed, but there are lots of ways to sign things these days, including electronic.  It's pretty intuitive in retrospect and hangs together well, with lots of side issues.  The risk of loss aspect gives the most confusion.  What makes a contract is also somewhat iffy for folks who think they have to be in writing, what that writing might consist of, etc.  Then there are duties upon imperfect delivery of the goods and remedies that make sense, in retrospect, but can prove quite alarming.  So a run though on a winter afternoon can later trigger "Hey, I remember seeing that" and then "Woah!  I'm setting myself up for some hurt!"

And ANY small business should have a friendly local business attorney available.  A $25 6 minute phone call can save 1000s.

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## Jeff Mando

> A $25 6 minute phone call can save 1000s.


Hey, that's $250 an hour!  I might have to give up my job as a paid protester and check out this law racket!  :Grin:  :Mandosmiley:  :Laughing:

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## Stephen Perry

Jeff, go ahead.  3 years of hard work, a nice little pop quiz, continuing legal education, malpractice insurance, suits, and the joy of dealing with upset people who learned everything they think they need to know about the judicial system from Judge Judy and Law and Order.  Fun stuff!  Lots of overhead expenses in addition.

I'm serious about people learning something about this.  A nolo book on contracts should be in every small business.

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Jeff Mando

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## Petrus

Not to get too far off track, but though I understand the need to have codified contract laws and that they can't help but become very detailed and cumbersome over time (details seem to accrete like barnacles over the years as new situations arise), I get very cynical about the way corporations find ways to skew the playing field in their benefit by requiring "binding arbitration" in so many cases before you can access a service, get credit, a job, apartment, or what-not.

They portray this as a way to save time and expense for all parties but they don't reveal that the arbitrators work (essentially if not in fact) for the party with the deep pockets and statistically, disputes end up being found in favor of these entities in the vast majority of cases because the "little guy" (tm) has neither the experience, money, nor time to invest in properly fighting a case.

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## Stephen Perry

The contract laws aren't actually very cumbersome compared to not having a standard set.  Disputes are actually rare, there are just so many contracts that they do arise.

Arbitration is part of the contract.  Don't enter into a contract if you don't like the clauses in it, or negotiate them away.  I have an arbitration issue at the moment I think I can sneak around, but it's still a little iffy.

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## Timbofood

I'll drive to the store, 2 hours, put my pants back on before I get out of the car, spend an hour diddling about in the store, pay cash, back to the car, remove pants, two hours home and be content. No contracts, no mail, no delivered next door, no lost in shipment, not blindly disappointed in a poor choice. If it's wrong, I have no one to blame but myself. I'm a simple man, driven by my stomach mostly.

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Jess L.

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## Stephen Perry

Ah, but Timbo, there is indeed a contract!

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## Folkmusician.com

And that whole hassle of having to put on pants. Who wants to deal with that!   :Wink:

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Jess L.

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## Kevin Stueve

> Ah, but Timbo, there is indeed a contract!


darn I was getting ready to show off my  faint remembrance of my college bus law course.  Offer, Acceptance, consideration -- sounds like a contract to me  :Wink:

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## Kevin Stueve

> And that whole hassle of having to put on pants. Who wants to deal with that!


so there is a marketing gimmick for you  -- Now introducing pantless thursdays at Folk Musican   :Laughing:

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Jess L.

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## Jeff Mando

Timbo, you sound like the Maestro from Seinfeld!  Don't want to lose your crease!  :Grin:

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## Timbofood

Yes, the contract does exist, as do the pants. Damn! You might say it was a pocket contract which has been fulfilled?

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## MC16

OP - has this been settled? How did t work out?

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Charles E.

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## Petrus

Yep, settled amicably!

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## Bill Cameron

> I'll drive to the store, 2 hours, put my pants back on before I get out of the car, spend an hour diddling about in the store, pay cash, back to the car, remove pants, two hours home and be content. No contracts, no mail, no delivered next door, no lost in shipment, not blindly disappointed in a poor choice. If it's wrong, I have no one to blame but myself. I'm a simple man, driven by my stomach mostly.


What ye need is a good kilt, lad.

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Timbofood

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## Timbofood

> What ye need is a good kilt, lad.


Aye, and I should be wearin' it "True!"

I actually inherited my fathers kilt, he was almost a foot shorter than I am so, the fit is a little "spare" length wise. God forbid I get caught outside in a wind gust!

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## brunello97

> What ye need is a good kilt, lad.


Utilikilts.com

Mick

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## Timbofood

Mick, you have such an interesting perspective!

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## Tobin

> Aye, and I should be wearin' it "True!"
> 
> I actually inherited my fathers kilt, he was almost a foot shorter than I am so, the fit is a little "spare" length wise. God forbid I get caught outside in a wind gust!


Kilts?  Y'all are speaking my language now!  While I'm not an "everyday" kilt wearer, I have numerous kilts for all occasions (clan gatherings, Highland Games, hiking, etc.).  I must admit, nothing's more comfortable for long drives.

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