Pinky question

[billkilpatrick]

Lots of good information in Chris Thile's video (I thought it was "Thile" like "while.") He recommends keeping your pinky close to the fingerboard so that "all fingers are ready for action." He says the pink has a tendency to "fly up" after making a note.

To correct this, Thile suggests doing FFcp scales and to practice using the ring and pinky fingers alone.

Anyone have any other tips of how to make all the fingers behave like I want 'em to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdhVC0DzfFY

[John Kelly]

Just been watching this video lesson, Bill, so thanks for link. Only thing I can add other than the obvious one of loads of practice, is perhaps to play in front of a mirror.

This is a tip I have picked up from the tutors at the fiddle workshop I go to, where after decades of playing with a pick and on fretted instruments and with the instrument in front of me I was exposed to the realities of wielding a fiddle bow, not having frets and having the fiddle up high at a different angle. This was a whole new world for me and I was back to the earliest days of learning guitar when it was an achievement to get clean notes! Our tutors suggest the mirror to watch bow angle so that we learn to play across the strings in a straight line rather than going off in strange sawing motions, but also just to see what we are doing with both hands. Chris mentions the importance of the position of the whole arm and not just the hand in his video. I have adopted this for my other instruments and it can be quite a revelation to watch you hands and what they are doing! You could also film yourself, as many of us in the SAW group do, but then look very carefully at the film to see your technique in all its glory.

The idea of working with pairs of fingers on the fretting hand, especially 3rd and pinkie, is one I have used for along time on guitar and mandolins, to strengthen the weaker fingers. One exercise I have used a lot with young guitar students is to play a note at any fret, add in the semi tone above, then repeat this across all the strings, one at a time, using first the 1st and second fingers, then 2nd and 3rd, then 3rd and pinkie. Play this pattern a few times on each string, maybe 4 notes on each string. Aim for accuracy and cleanly fretted notes and build up your speed slowly. You can then add in another finger, move up a fret as you change to the next string, and work out other variations as you progress. With smaller hands begin higher up the fretboard to avoid strain. Aim to keep your fingers on the fretted note as you play the higher note, and on the way back down have both fingers on the notes to start with, then lift off the higher one after you have played that note.

This is actually harder to put into words than to do, I am realising, but it works and if it's something you have already been using, then accept my apologies! We never reach our goal, but the fun is the trying! :mandosmiley:

[Mark Gunter]

Wish I did have some tips. I'm gonna watch that Thile vid again, it's been awhile. I've started practicing this in the past week, it's very difficult for me. David Ellis makes a point about it in this interview with Brad Laird on Grass Talk Radio, beginning about 13:30 - https://bradleylaird.podbean.com

I've noticed especially in the guitar playing of Tony Rice and Brian Sutton how closely their fingertips hover over the fretboard and little effort is then needed to fret a note and play cleanly at really high speeds. Seems to be a difficult skill to develop.

[Mark Gunter]

Oh, one other thing (though this is just common sense) what I started doing on this last week is besides FFcP, I've been taking familiar tunes that use some pinky notes, slowing the metronome, and focusing on trying to keep the pinky in a good position when it's not being used. This is really tough, as I want it to fly away or curl and rest too low when it's not called upon. Slow, concentrated effort to change those habits is all I know to try at this point.

[JeffD]

The idea of working with pairs of fingers on the fretting hand, especially 3rd and pinkie, is one I have used for along time on guitar and mandolins, to strengthen the weaker fingers.

I have a mental picture I use just for this. Which is to consider the pinky to be a pet of the ring finger, not a full fledged finger on its own. A creature that has freedom only in the limited range from the ring finger.

So that means when I need to deploy the pinky, I deploy the ring finger to the note just below, at the same time. You want to get the Pomeranian to the corner, and the leash is not long enough for the dog to go alone, so you send the dog and the dog walker. The dog to the corner and the walker to the vicinity of the corner.

[Mark Miller]

I broke my left hand very badly back in college and had to have reconstructive surgery to put my fingers back together. As a result I have some limitations in movement and there are some things I just can't do (the Monroe G chop chord for example). I can use my pinkie ok if it's reaching out by itself, for example if I have to reach to fret the 7th fret from having just fretted at 2 with my index finger. But if I've fretted a note at 5 or 6 with my ring finger, it is way way hard for me to get my pinkie to 7 so I just play the next string up open. Based on this thread, I wonder if I'm giving up too easy. Does anyone else experience this? That is, pinkie can do its job off by itself but not in close proximity to ring finger?

[catmandu2]

Anyone have any other tips of how to make all the fingers behave like I want 'em to?



Afraid I haven't any 'tips' - other than to study under an instructor. The method: any time the hand positions migrate from optimal - which is about every 5 seconds, when beginning - thereupon the instructor immediately stops you and corrects it. Infuriating, but effective.

[Beanzy]

The key to control is relaxation. As the little finger is so dependent on the third for strength, it becomes habituated to moving in tandem with it and this is from the time you first grip as an infant.
You'll never control it by strength, as it will run to it's big brother for help and you lose independence straight away.
A exercise I do is to hold the hand out palm up, fingers slightly curled, and touch each finger to the heel of your hand in turn. You'll find the pesky third finger wants to join in as soon as you go to move the little finger. This is were you need to learn the relaxation required to disocciate the two fingers. To this day I still can only get about 3/4 the way to the heel before the third finger moves in sympathy, but it used to do so immediately, so it's much more controlled now.

Rex Preston gave us a very good lesson on this where he suggested playing all your normal tunes but keeping the little finger hovering over the strings like the damper on a piano. You then use this to mute the strings between notes as you play. A bit like a chop, but damping with the pinky rather than releasing the stopping fingers. It's a bit of a head-mess at first, with the little finger randomly snatching closed or snagging out notes as your third finger moves. But eventually you get this very floaty relaxed control over when and whether your finger moves. It's not quick to learn though, as with any unlearned habits it takes time and a good bit of effort.

[JeffD]

One thing you can do to strengthen the pinky up and make the moves more "automatic" is to practice all your tunes without the index finger. Just move one finger over.

Years ago I had to do this for quite several months because of a pain issue, and when the pain issue was resolved I had much stronger fingers at the small end of the hand.

[foldedpath]

I have terrible pinky position readiness, it's flying out there all over the place. Whatever my ring finger is doing, the pinky is mimic'ing like some puppet, and it only flies out there and nails a note when I need it. But it does do that, as a result of long practice. I also have trouble curling my right hand like Thile recommends. I play more like Tim O'Brien's right hand, with that loose-looking right hand and the fingers out there a bit.

I know Thile is recommending some good stuff here, but I'm just too busy learning and playing tunes to re-work my fingering. If you're just starting out, follow what he's showing and not what I'm doing. The only thing I can recommend from experience is don't get lazy about the TONE and VOLUME of any note you hit with your pinky. It has to be just as clear and loud as anything else you hit.

If you're playing fiddle tunes in first position, practice on something like "Star of Munster" that gives your pinky a real workout to hit that high B note. If you can play that second part of the tune convincingly, you can play anything with your pinky in any position further up the neck.

[Bertram Henze]

... how to make all the fingers behave like I want 'em to?

I behave like my fingers want me to. :grin:

[catmandu2]

I behave like my fingers want me to. :grin:

Yes but if you submit to the catechism of the "teacher"'s rod your fingers WILL behave like teacher wants (queue mother savagely flogging Jake and Elwood Blues).

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Foldedpath - ".... it's flying out there all over the place...". I've seen a lot of top picker with 'fly away' fingers,possibly the one i watch the most being Ronnie McCoury. His left hand fingers look like they're making a break for it !. My fingers are usually close to the fingerboard,but if they weren't,as long as i could get them to where they need to be at the right time - why worry ?.

Playing technique is like lots of other things,very individualistic. We do them our way,the way we feel comfortable with - as it should be,
Ivan;)

[billkilpatrick]

Science marches on ... sort of ...

155629

[billkilpatrick]

Afraid I haven't any 'tips' - other than to study under an instructor. The method: any time the hand positions migrate from optimal - which is about every 5 seconds, when beginning - thereupon the instructor immediately stops you and corrects it. Infuriating, but effective.

... I see a ruler ... do you see a ruler? ... I see a ruler.

[Bertram Henze]

if you submit to the catechism of the "teacher"'s rod your fingers WILL behave like teacher wants

...good idea.

https://www.discounter-archiv.de/media/produkte/2015-12/ALDI-Sued2015-12-10/1692500_001.jpg

[Bertram Henze]

Science marches on ... sort of ...

155629

Ahh, the latest from Tomas De Torquemada's mandolin class :cow:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/09/b5/5b/09b55b0d1b32af6cdeee116208580a5e.jpg

[MediumMando5722]

From Foldedpath - ".... it's flying out there all over the place...". I've seen a lot of top picker with 'fly away' fingers,possibly the one i watch the most being Ronnie McCoury. His left hand fingers look like they're making a break for it !. My fingers are usually close to the fingerboard,but if they weren't,as long as i could get them to where they need to be at the right time - why worry ?.

Playing technique is like lots of other things,very individualistic. We do them our way,the way we feel comfortable with - as it should be,
Ivan;)

I agree, in that, I would never tell Ronnie McCoury he should work on keeping his fingers more under control. However, I am not Ronnie McCoury, so I'm gonna work on the finger control :)

[billkilpatrick]

This actually works ...

155639

[sblock]

OK, everybody -- it's time for an anatomy lesson, and a reality check. :)

Try this: First, make a fist with your fretting hand, and then try to straighten each finger separately, one a at time. Notice where you have issues with this! Now, straighten all your fingers and then try to bend each finger separately. You should notice that in both cases, considerable difficulty arises with the ring and middle fingers. Understanding why this happens involves a more detailed understanding of the musculature and "tendon wiring" of the hand and forearm.

In trying this exercise, you may have also noticed that the little finger actually moves just a little better than the ring and middle fingers in some of these tests. The little finger actually has separate forearm muscles that allow it to perform SOME independent movements -- but not all such movements. In particular, the pinky relies on some muscles that it shares with the other three fingers, limiting control! As far as extension is concerned, the little finger may have a separate muscle, as a variation in some people, to power it -- and this improves control. Or, it might not. Depends on your anatomy.

The ring and pinky also typically have their own flexor tendons, but it is very common to have some branching of one to the other. So whenever the ring finger flexes, the pinky is often obliged to go along for the ride. Again, this depends on your personal anatomy, and we're all just a little different. In my case, I can fully bend my ring finger alone from a straight position. But if I try to do the same with just my pinky finger, I can't: my ring finger also flexes, and bends even if I try to "will" it to stay straight. Try it and see if it happens for you, too!

The ring and pinky are partially bound together for most of us. Alas, all those instructors who helpfully demand a particular left-hand position for the free pinky usually do not know what they're talking about, and they certainly don't understand and appreciate the normal range of variations in human anatomy. Yes, THEY might be able to keep their free pinky flexed and near the ring finger at all times, and assume that's "normal" and "good technique," but not all of us can! Rigorous pinky training might help a little, but ultimately, it comes down to your personal anatomy. Some folks naturally extend their pinky when it's not consciously being used for fretting (which is a significant part of the time while playing the mandolin). This does not mean they have bad technique, and it does not stop them from playing at the highest levels. Look carefully at this video of Mike Marshall playing beautifully on a tune we all know well, "Cherokee Shuffle." Notice how often his unused pinky goes straight out! That's a "fly-away" finger, according to some. Bad technique? NO! That's just his personal anatomy. And it doesn't stop him from playing anything, or at any speed. So everyone -- and especially you instructors --please stop trying to tell people what they must do with their free pinky. Yes, try to keep the index, middle, and ring bent and as near the frets as possible. But let the pinky range free. It usually follows the ring finger down towards the frets, but for some of us, it will fly away afterwards. And that's perfectly OK.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdq6Nw1Qc8U

[catmandu2]

Another method: study fiddle (classical fingering, or cajun, scandi or other fiddle style with prodigious pinkie use). I found that the same fingering facility transferred immediately/automatically to the mandolin. (I guess you could do same - just with the mandolin).

Depending on your spiritual persuasion, this may be favorable to the catechism of the rod.

[AlanN]

Do the old Tony Rice trick:

Same note
Same string
Different finger each time

works wonders

[BJ O'Day]

But if I've fretted a note at 5 or 6 with my ring finger, it is way way hard for me to get my pinkie to 7 so I just play the next string up open. Based on this thread, I wonder if I'm giving up too easy. Does anyone else experience this? That is, pinkie can do its job off by itself but not in close proximity to ring finger?

I broke my pinkie and never had it set. It sticks out away from the other fingers. I really have to think about it when fretting with the pinkie because it has a tendency to lie across the string and not come straight down on the string. I cannot fret one step away from the ring finger without turning my hand. I can fret 2 steps away. If I fret the 6th followed by the 7th, I slide the ring finger from 6 to 7.
155651
BJ

[Beanzy]

Indeed Sblock, when designing reality checks, make sure you do it in a real situation. No one I know plays mandolin with their hand open and the fingers straight in line with the hand. That's why you should use the hand in a natural starting position (fingers lightly curled) for any assessment of your ability to move individual fingers. Notice the difference in the ability of the little finger to move when it & it's fellows aren't under tension to begin with. When starting from curled there is a point where the pinky gains the ability to go across the palm and can suddenly pop across the palm with a tiny change in effort, kind of snatches across. This is what you can learn to control by relaxing the tension.

[sblock]

Indeed Sblock, when designing reality checks, make sure you do it in a real situation. No one I know plays mandolin with their hand open and the fingers straight in line with the hand. That's why you should use the hand in a natural starting position (fingers lightly curled) for any assessment of your ability to move individual fingers. Notice the difference in the ability of the little finger to move when it & it's fellows aren't under tension to begin with. When starting from curled there is a point where the pinky gains the ability to go across the palm and can suddenly pop across the palm with a tiny change in effort, kind of snatches across. This is what you can learn to control by relaxing the tension.

You seem to be confused about this, because your response is way off target. Those "reality check" tests were designed to illustrate that our fingers do not all move fully independently. They were not about playing position. Several of our digits share some common forearm muscles, and even -- the in case of the pinky -- some common tendons, and the tests are designed to help to demonstrate that, beyond any doubt. They were NOT intended to simulate any finger-curled "natural" playing position! Yes indeed, one has somewhat different finger mobility from playing position, but none of that detracts in any way from the fact that our fingers have complex cross-linkages, and that these can vary from person to person.

None of what you wrote addresses the anatomical fact that the pinky and ring finger share a common part of a flexor tendon (for many/most people) and are therefore incapable of moving entirely independently, unlike, say, the index and middle fingers. This is a matter of personal anatomy, and no amount of practice or hand training will ever change that! And none of what you wrote addresses the fact that for some people (but not all), the "free" pinky will tend to straighten and move away from a bent ring finger, whereas it will track with it closely when moved in the opposite direction, that is, while the ring finger is being bent.

If you watch the hands of any virtuoso violinist, you will see evidence for the tracking of the pinky together with the ring finger, especially when both fingers are not both down on the fingerboard. And you will also see evidence of the pinky pulling away from the ring finger for some violinists (depends on their anatomy), particularly when the ring finger is being used for a bit of time and the pinky is not.

I hope you got a chance to watch the Mike Marshall video. It illustrates the point nicely. And Mike is no slouch on the mandolin, as we all know. This discussion is not about "relaxing the tension" and thereby learning to place the pinky at will down onto the fingerboard. That is "pinky training" and we can all learn to do that with practice. This is a about what happens to the pinky when it's not being actively used -- see the OP's point. For some players, the pinky will fly up. For others, not so much. And this is mostly a matter of personal anatomy, not pinky training.

[Mark Gunter]

I found your "reality check" test very interesting and enlightening, at this point I just take you at your word about the muscles & tendons, etc. because I'm not ready to follow that rabbit. But I really want to thank you for digging up that illustrative video, because I love to listen to, and to watch, both those players! That was an awesome recital.

I mentioned in an earlier post how both Brian Sutton and Tony Rice have a pretty impressive control over their fingertips, i.e., control over the proximity of each fingertip to the fretboard while playing. In this example, Brian's fingertips, including the pinky, rarely range far from the fretboard. The pinkie does fly away a bit at some points when not called upon, but not like mine, it flies far away seemingly of it's own accord and sometimes wants to curl below the neck a bit. I've tried each day for nearly a week now to focus on preventing this as much as possible, but it requires a great deal of attention to make a very little headway in this.

Concerning the OP, his question seemed to me to be about keeping the fingertips close to fretting position, rather than the general "use your pinkie to play music." I have been using my pinkie to play music for many years and have no problem with that, it's the resting position of the unused pinkie that gives me trouble. Your points about anatomy are well-taken, but I tend to believe that I can at least improve the resting position of the little finger with practice.

Also, as to the OP's original post, he mentioned a Thile video, and I went back and watched the relevant section of that video (I'd seen the whole thing several times before). What I noticed the past couple years after hearing CT talk about this is: When I watch CT's hands, I find that he himself doesn't do this. His pinkie is often out gathering wool a bit when not in use. Tony Rice and Brian Sutton are better examples in that regard IMO.

[catmandu2]

... the resting position of the unused pinkie...

In my experience, scale study kind of automatically took care of that. (In my case, classical guitar training - concerned as it is with economy of movement - provided me this facility - transferable to all other fretted strings)

[Beanzy]

The Mike Marshall video is a clear illustration of what Chris Thile refers to in his video, where people often angle the hand away from the line of the fretboard, giving the pinky no option but to move ot of position. He not only angles it away but also doesn't bring the wrist around under the neck further limiting its ability to stay in place, you can see how he repeatedly has to compensate for this by making a special effort to bring the wrist back in position to bring the pinky into play. It's an excellent reminder of how innefficiency doesn't preclude good playing, it just gives you more to overcome. However the OP was about aiming for the efficency refered to in the Chris Thile video. Mike Marshall does not have that.

Although most of us are talking about the detail of the hand and digits, you've got to start further up getting the wrist brought around to ensure you're not starting out already under tension in the hand ( think elbow rather than wrist)

[sblock]

The Mike Marshall video is a clear illustration of what Chris Thile refers to in his video, where people often angle the hand away from the line of the fretboard, giving the pinky no option but to move ot of position. He not only angles it away but also doesn't bring the wrist around under the neck further limiting its ability to stay in place, you can see how he repeatedly has to compensate for this by making a special effort to bring the wrist back in position to bring the pinky into play. It's an excellent reminder of how innefficiency doesn't preclude good playing, it just gives you more to overcome. However the OP was about aiming for the efficency refered to in the Chris Thile video. Mike Marshall does not have that.

Although most of us are talking about the detail of the hand and digits, you've got to start further up getting the wrist brought around to ensure you're not starting out already under tension in the hand ( think elbow rather than wrist)

You seem to be under the incorrect impression that by altering the wrist/hand position -- or even the elbow position -- the issue of a "flying pinky" somehow will go magically away. It likely won't. And you also seem to think this might be a matter of simply relaxing the "hand tension." It's not that, either. So, I'll say it one more time: this is not merely a matter of playing technique, Beanzy. For many players (but not all), it is a matter of human anatomy. No amount of training will ever "correct" it. Not that it needs to be corrected, mind you.

No one disputes that it is faster to position the fingertips as close to their next fingerboard destinations as possible when playing. This is true for all fretted instruments, and not just for the mandolin, by the way! So if you can manage it, fine. But it is simply not true that all players can manage this motion at all times with their pinky fingers. The pinky is intrinsically different from the other digits. When properly positioned by the hand and wrist, it can generally go down onto the fretboard under very good control, but when coming up from the fretboard, it's often tied to the ring finger in interesting ways. This holds true for many people, but not for all, and it depends on their personal tendon anatomy. So, just because one player you admire (say, CT) can do certain things with his pinky, that does not mean that all players can (see MM).

Please don't equate freer pinky motions with "bad technique," or as anything that requires correction. That's just wrong. Yes, you can train your pinky to reach those frets. But not everyone can train it what to do once the fingerboard is released, and the ring finger is engaged in its own motion. The ring finger and pinky are often tied together.

This is not about "efficient" vs. "inefficient" playing, either! There is no evidence that Mike Marshall's playing is in some way "less efficient" that any other great mandolinist. There would seem to be no evidence of that. He plays just as lyrically, just as fast, and just as challenging a repertoire as anyone else, I'd argue. And as others have already pointed out, even CT's pinky goes flying from time to time, too. This is not bad technique.

[catmandu2]

Having come up through the orthodoxy of classical pedagogy, i typically carried the orientation that the sanctity of economy of movement was rational - 'proper' and generally superior technique. Until I saw someone like Fritz Kreisler or Jascha Heifetz or someone - don't recall who it was - whose pinky was flailing about painfully (it appeared). I believe the orthodoxies of classical playing encompass many conventions - some even non-musical but rather dealing with aesthetics associated with traditional technique - "economy of movement" for example. (The physical compliance of position is something I endured, but fwiw wouldnt necessarily recommend unless a student is young or otherwise having problems with technique that 'correction' might solve). These physical aesthetics are part of classical orthodoxy, for better and worse.

[sblock]

Having come up through the orthodoxy of classical pedagogy, i typically carried the orientation that the sanctity of economy of movement was rational - 'proper' and generally superior technique. Until I saw someone like Fritz Kreisler or Jascga Heifetz - don't recall who it was - whose pinky was flailing about painfully (it appeared). I believe the orthodoxies of classical playing encompass many conventions - some even non-musical but rather dealing with aesthetics associated with traditional technique - "economy of movement" for example. (The coerced physical compliance of position is something I endured). These physical aesthetics are part of classical orthodoxy, for better and worse.

Very true, and well put! Classical technique is indeed best characterized as an "orthodoxy."

And yes, it was the immortal Jascha Heifetz who tended to keep his pinky straight out when it wasn't in direct use on the fingerboard, scarcely bent, and generally pointing away from -- gasp, and not towards! -- the fingerboard. UNorthodox, one might say. But I'm sure it was fully consistent with his personal anatomy, and also entirely "efficient," given what his body could (or could not) do. Check out this video of him, with incredible playing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-4HgDNE86c

[Mark Gunter]

catmandu2, do you believe that the forced physical compliance of position, as regards the pinky, that you endured was not profitable - in the sense that it did not engender a generally superior technique in your playing? That economy of movement is really just for show? That seems to be the gist of what you wrote last.

[catmandu2]

catmandu2, do you believe that the forced physical compliance of position, as regards the pinky, that you endured was not profitable - in the sense that it did not engender a generally superior technique in your playing? That economy of movement is really just for show? That seems to be the gist of what you wrote last.

I highly value the skills I acquired from classical pedagogy - especially the technical chops: finger independence seems to me to be about the most valuable asset (drummers study independence too, etc). I was able to apply general technique to a host of stringed instruments - and always attributed the facility I enjoy playing (everything) to rigorous, formal guitar study.

I don't know that any of the refinements and conventions of orthodoxy are frivolous - they have a functional relation.

But heck I'm only an amateur - I never got very far performing - just local gigs, fun.

*So in answering, I'd say that any technique should either make you richer, further fulfill your artistic endeavors, or just enable more fun. :)

[Beanzy]

Sorry you're so confused about what I'm actually saying sblock.
I am talking about the original thread, control of the little finger and how to achieve it.
I also see you won't accept the clear evidence of the video you posted, where Mike Marshall moves his hand in exactly the way indicated by Chris Thile in his illustration of how people often cause the problem. I can't help you with that, you'd have to be open to the evidence you posted.

I'm certainly not advocating some type of classical orthodoxy either.
I am exactly the opposite of orthodox in building my techniques, I go for what is logical and efficient given my limitations.
With my fat fingers I've had to get creative with how I approach any fingering recommendations.
But I know from being a woeful finger flier in my early days that I am grateful for teachers who showed how to overcome that.
However, as a result of their insight, I do always advocate working with the body rather than allowing poor habits to cause unnecessary hurdles.
In this case as illustrated by CT and MM, changing the angle of the hand takes the pinky away from the fretboard, necessitating its return when needed, along with a corresponding change back of the angle.
The case of the MM video is quite clear that he is capable of placing the finger where he wants, even where the third finger is in a place where he previously had the pinky out of the way, so there doesn't seem to be any physical obstacle causing it.
Why he does that is not possible for me to determine from a video, only that he doesn't have any physical obstacle causing it.

As to people who do let the fingers fly, well I love to see when players who normally are very controlled decide to let fly, there have been a few good videos posted where that was highlighted. However where someone asks for advice about how to gain control, then it would be remiss not to be straight up in giving the experience which worked for me and many others. Especially when given by a teacher who spent ten years rebuilding his technique from scratch due to limitations he found then.
I'll stick to the op question and leave you to your diversions.

[billkilpatrick]

... Concerning the OP, his question seemed to me to be about keeping the fingertips close to fretting position, rather than the general "use your pinkie to play music." I have been using my pinkie to play music for many years and have no problem with that, it's the resting position of the unused pinkie that gives me trouble. Your points about anatomy are well-taken, but I tend to believe that I can at least improve the resting position of the little finger with practice.

Also, as to the OP's original post, he mentioned a Thile video, and I went back and watched the relevant section of that video (I'd seen the whole thing several times before). What I noticed the past couple years after hearing CT talk about this is: When I watch CT's hands, I find that he himself doesn't do this. His pinkie is often out gathering wool a bit when not in use. Tony Rice and Brian Sutton are better examples in that regard IMO.

Grazie, Mark - fingertips close to the fingerboard was what I was concerned with. I started using the little finger when I stumbled on Ted Eschilman's FFcp exercises - learning (ha!) to play the fiddle helped as well. All I can tell you is (a) the figure "8" shaped rubber band looped around the ring and little finger seems to help and (b) the tendon extensor of my digitus annula'ris has made itself known to me.

[Ausdoerrt]

For some players, the pinky will fly up. For others, not so much. And this is mostly a matter of personal anatomy, not pinky training.
From my experience with the violin, it IS a matter of training. Most beginners have their pinky fly up, primarily due to excess tension in the left hand. With training, you don't see it so much anymore. And I'm speaking from personal experience here.

Now, mandolin is a bit different, because you don't get to use the pinky quite as much (especially in folky styles like bluegrass). However, if you want to imitate Thile, I'd say pinky training is pretty much required.


And yes, it was the immortal Jascha Heifetz who tended to keep his pinky straight out when it wasn't in direct use on the fingerboard, scarcely bent, and generally pointing away from -- gasp, and not towards! -- the fingerboard. UNorthodox, one might say. But I'm sure it was fully consistent with his personal anatomy, and also entirely "efficient," given what his body could (or could not) do.

Any classical teacher worth his/her salt would respond with something like, "If you can play like Heifetz, you can play however the heck you like. Since you can't (yet), you should learn the "standard" technique first."

Also, just because a player is famous/"good", doesn't mean he's automatically perfect at everything. They're just better at compensating for their weaknesses. For example, there are several "great" violinists known for poor staccato technique.

[Nick Gellie]

Well I am of the Chris Thile persuasion. My pinkie stays close to the fingerboard and it is ready to strike whether it is the middle or ring finger that either precede or follow it. By the way I play fiddle so I am used to this attack on the fingerboard.

[sblock]

No one, and especially not me, has advocated AGAINST positioning the pinky in a curled, "ready" position as near to the fretboard -- and to the next note that it will fret -- as possible. And the same goes for all the other fingers. This is proper classical technique, and it holds for playing folk music as well. It is also considered to be "efficient," in the sense that it requires less movement to engage the finger on the fret --- but that can be a little misleading, because a great many other things contribute to speed and efficiency, and pinky positioning is not usually rate-limiting for achieving high playing speed.

What I have been pointing out is that flyaway pinkies can happen for some players, and that this is a matter of personal anatomy. Yes, some players will have the ability to retrain their pinkies not to do this, because they have the musculature and tendon structure to do it. But some will not, and no amount of training and practice will fix it. Those of you who are able to train your pinky seem to find it hard to believe that people exist who are not able to do that! But these people DO exist, and some of them are terrific players.

Not all traditional playing advice is good advice! In this modern era, those who are teachers, or offer playing advice, are well advised to understand about anatomical variations a bit better, and not insist on people doing things that they can't. So this is just a friendly reminder about that. And it might be news for some of you out there. I do not want us to dispute about the best ways to play. I just want us to understand one another a little better -- and that includes understanding the other person's anatomy, too.

[T.D.Nydn]

Basically,,your either born to do it or not...

[JeffD]

The Mike Marshall video is a clear illustration of what Chris Thile refers to in his video, where people often angle the hand away from the line of the fretboard, giving the pinky no option but to move ot of position. He not only angles it away but also doesn't bring the wrist around under the neck further limiting its ability to stay in place, you can see how he repeatedly has to compensate for this by making a special effort to bring the wrist back in position to bring the pinky into play.)

First - there is not a player on the earth whose technique could not be improved.

Two - there are not two players on the earth who play exactly alike.

Three - great players sometimes have quirky techniques (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTU4_Apvplw)that mediocre players like myself would do well to avoid. How they do what they do, and can do, need not be a model for what we should try and do.

Four - I think it ridiculous to be critical of world class players because their technique is not that advocated by other world class players. (I personally think it ridiculous to be critical of any experienced player's technique.)

Five - my apologies for being a curmudgeon this morning. I woke up and found we had run out of coffee, and half and half, and yogurt. I mean come on...

[AlanN]

I just checked. My standard stance is pinky curled, hovering over the fingerboard, close to and ready to pounce on a fret. I tried to have it point up, could hardly do it.

And Jeff, those 3 items you mention. Absolute staples in my household. If they went missing...well, I shudder to think....

[billkilpatrick]

... quirky techniques ...

I feel a Social Group coming on ...

[Jim1hays]

I have a similar issue. I broke the knuckle on my left hand middle finger and had surgery to re-align it. I am now having to retrain the hand by running multiple scales as fast as I can until I feel a burning in my finger. This is the only way I can get back to playing. I too cannot get into the full G chop chord as a result.

[Bertram Henze]

I feel a Social Group coming on ...

I'll register in advance, if that is possible. The name of the group could be Don't Try This At Home! or Mandolin Kamasutra.

[Jacob]

The thumb has its own tendon.
First finger and pinkie each has a separate tendon.
However, our middle and ring fingers share a tendon, not the ring and pinkie.

Robert Schumann became a composer because he failed as a pianist.
He was eager to make his mark, and to try to speed up the process he constructed a weird device using a cigar box and some wire.
It was intended to prop up his fingers while practicing, the idea being to strengthen them and develop independence.
But instead, two fingers on his right hand were permanently injured.

Of the fingers in the human hand, why is the ring finger the most difficult to control? (https://www.quora.com/Of-the-fingers-in-the-human-hand-why-is-the-ring-finger-the-most-difficult-to-control)
Four Fingers: Three Tendons and a Thumb (https://alfredledgerlines.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/four-fingers-three-tendons-and-a-thumb/)
5 Things You Never Knew About Schumann (http://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2012/09/20/161482421/5-things-you-never-knew-about-schumann)

[Beanzy]

Jeff I'm not being critical of M M . What would be the merit in that? I'm analysing what I see and applying it to the example given in light of the control being looked for. MM doesn't bother with that control, and uses less efficiency to achieve the end result, and we've all got plenty of enjoyment from that approach. CT tries for the most efficient technique. Perhaps that's why his movements take their exhuberance elsewhere, leading to people commenting on his stage movements. However technique and improvement need analasys if they are to be persued. If they're not an objective then no point wasting effort better spent on other areas.

That is why I highlighted the defficiency in trying to understand the movement of your hand by holding the hand out straight.
It's not going to give you a true picture of the movement or control you could have when playing with a relaxed lightly curled hand as we do. The range is different when the other finger is giving it more slack. As per my original point the control part of the pinky comes from not forcing it to remain in place as it will then have to engage the strength of its neighbour and you've exaserbated the issue. However practicing using the technique I outlined by relaxing it enables you to become accoustomed to leaving the finger idle when it has no immediate use. It's not held there, it is just left suspended, almost detached. I suppose because we are used to making an effort to put the pinky down then if we don't accustom it to a resting position, we're still going to be engaging it when the other finger moves meaning it has to move with it.
Remembering back to when this was an issue for me I would often suddenly snag it closed, so would make sure it got out of the way rather than risk that. That meant I was continually having to control the pinky as I removed it from the area then I had to bring it in faster while making more effort to locate it properly, and I could often get cramped up across the back of the hand. By habituating it to just stay relaxed and not engage until needed the back of the hand tension disappeared.

Again this isn't like exercises to force yourself to have classical guitar reach or a span like Rachmaninov, it's the reverse. It's disengaging the tension while giving it a neutral home position. The damping exercise helps to locate it while also giving it a purpose, so you learn how to engage it then relax regardless of any other activity going on at the time.

[sblock]

... However practicing using the technique I outlined by relaxing it enables you to become accoustomed to leaving the finger idle when it has no immediate use. It's not held there, it is just left suspended, almost detached. I suppose because we are used to making an effort to put the pinky down then if we don't accustom it to a resting position, we're still going to be engaging it when the other finger moves meaning it has to move with it...


Sigh. The part that you still don't seem to get, despite all that's been written previously in this thread, is that it is simply NOT POSSIBLE, and certainly not through any type of "relaxation" (!), for some people to leave their pinky "idle" (and suspended in air) when it's not in active use. That's because while their pinky is supposed to be idle, they're actively using their ring finger to fret, and this finger shares part of a tendon, and also some musculature, with their pinky! Move the ring finger, and the pinky will also tend to move, too -- whether they will it to, or not. The only way to keep the pinky from moving, in such cases, would be to have it in contact with the fingerboard, which dampens the sympathetic motion. Hence the well-known phenomenon of the "flyaway pinky," which happens for some great mandolinists (like Mike Marshall) and also some great violinists (like Jascha Heifetz). This is not a matter of a failure to "relax." This is not a matter of their "poor" technique. This is a matter of personal anatomy. Just because YOU can keep your pinky curled and still while moving your ring finger does not mean that everyone can!!

Some folks, like you, have the tendons and musculature to suppress a flyaway pinky by sheer dint of practice, and through the relaxation of certain muscles, combined with careful positioning of the hand. And some folks cannot. But this seems to be the point that you just don't get.

Try to understand that not everyone is built just like you, and you may become more sympathetic. And perhaps less proscriptive about technique?

Regardless, a flyaway pinky has never stopped anyone from becoming a great musician.

[Beanzy]

Sblock you seem to think I'm being proscriptive. i'm not I'm offering a description of a technique that I clearly say has worked for me, in response to a request for techniques that people have experience of.
You also seem to think I don't accept the assertions you have been making. If you bother to read my posts properly you'll see you have built your own straw man and are having a wonderful time knocking it. I merely did not engage with any of your assertions as they have no bearing on my posts or the original request for advice. I ignore irrelevant contributions. The only point of yours I did take issue with was your flawed 'reality' check using an unrealistic test.

[sblock]

Sblock you seem to think I'm being proscriptive. i'm not I'm offering a description of a technique that I clearly say has worked for me, in response to a request for techniques that people have experience of.
You also seem to think I don't accept the assertions you have been making. If you bother to read my posts properly you'll see you have built your own straw man and are having a wonderful time knocking it. I merely did not engage with any of your assertions as they have no bearing on my posts or the original request for advice. I ignore irrelevant contributions. The only point of yours I did take issue with was your flawed 'reality' check using an unrealistic test.

Well, at least we agree about something: You're perfectly correct in declaring that you have been unresponsive and have ignored much of what has been written in this thread, having personally deemed it "irrelevant." That's absolutely correct. But it's no way to hold a meaningful discussion. Talking past people, or not listening to them, is not a good way to contribute to MC threads.

There was nothing "flawed" about the test I offered for others to try, which is a standard test that is well known to physiologists. I didn't invent it. You deemed it flawed/irrelevant because it was not out of a playing position. By dismissing it in this way, you missed the point of the test entirely. The test is intended to show that our fingers are connected and that they cannot execute entirely independent motions. It also illustrates, for many people, peculiar aspects of their personal anatomy, as well as some range-of-motion issues. And it works perfectly well for its intended purpose. It is not some "musical position" test to explore fretting motions -- and it was never represented a such. You just misconstrued it, and you misrepresented it when you complained that it was flawed because it used hand positions not involved in fretting. Sorry, but you were way off base with that complaint!

Things work better on the Cafe when we acknowledge one another's viewpoints, and don't talk past them. You don't have to agree, but you ought not ignore.

[Mark Gunter]

Things work better on the Cafe when ...

Sounds like a topic we could have some fun with.

155761

[KGreene]

I think the best tip I ever heard for "pinky control" was a very simple but direct statement from Adam Steffey (i believe).... "if your not good with your pinky, get good with your pinky." ..... Use whatever practice ritual works best for you.

It worked for me anyway.

JMTCW

[sblock]

...a very simple but direct statement from Adam Steffey (i believe).... "if you're not good with your pinky, get good with your pinky." ...

Sound advice, indeed!

[Beanzy]

The reason for not engaging with the parts of the posts I don't disagree with is because there's nothing to discuss and I have nothing to add to them. That would be just filling up space to no effect, there have been enough threads in the past with posts outlining the connections you keep posting about, I don't have anything to add and repetition by multiple posters just clogs up a thread.

However in your posts I think you may have misunderstood the nature of well designed exercises, leading you off on a tangent.
You even postulate some need for a physical difference for some people in order to be able to play with a controlled little finger.
As long as people aren't damaged in some way I don't think that it is necessary to introduce exceptional physique as a factor ie; for people to have some physical difference from others in order be able to gain better control over their "flying fingers". Just to be clear, in case it's not obvious; I'm not saying people couldn't or don't have physical differences which can give them advantages, that happens in any activity. However if you take something like the exercise I outlined as an example, (let's call it the "pinky damper" exercise) then you can see how well designed training can work with the body by conditioning us to become relaxed with a hold or position by eliminating obstacles that prevent us from being able to achieve our aims. Note in case it's not clear enough, this just refers to what happens in the exercise, not while you play in a real world situation, exercises are often designed to do what would otherwise be considered weird in a playing situation. At the risk of a lengthy post I'll try to explain why well designed exercises like this can help and in doing so hopefully reveal why you don't need special physical abilities to be able to control flying fingers, or gain control over the little finger.
I'm not saying there won't be people who are unusually limited by some physical trait, just that if you're not then efficient control is there to be had by people with a normal physique.

At first I found this one to be a bit strange, in fact when Rex showed it I remember thinking "you can't do that" and "what's the use for real playing?" Then of course as happens in any group, a couple of people in the class got it fairly quickly, and he played some real tune examples where he actually uses it, and the differences in how the notes ended was obvious. I didn't actually manage more than a rough approximation during his lessons, with lots of involuntary snagging and frustration. But what I realised aftewards was that my hand position had really settled down and my other fingers were becoming much better behaved too, from doing an exercise focussed on my little'weakest' finger.
Preventing tension and limiting unnecessary movement seem to be a focus of many exercises, and in that pinky damper one you can analyse how it might achieve that.

First trick I think it uses is to give the pinky something to do; You get told to line the pinky up across the fretboard and leave it there while playing during the exercise. In order to even get close to achieving that the other fingers need to behave and not be flying up, otherwise that 3rd finger will just rip the pinky out of place or as happens me it snags into a curl if the third gets too lively. (I've actually started using that to do left hand pizzicato on the fiddle now, lift the third off hard and it tenses up the back of the hand & my pinky snaps from it's normal relaxed curve bobbing along with the others into a tight curl, rough as heck but very loud)

The second trick I think it uses is to get you to line up the pinky across the fretboard and it sets that as a very visual goal.
That means that the hand has to line up with the neck, so the other fingers have to move efficiently if the little finger is to stay in place. But we're not made to focus on them it's all supposedly focussed on the little finger, we just have to make them behave if the stated pinky position is to be achieved. I think this is the cleverest part about exercises like these, they often don't focus on all of what is being achieved, they give you the headline focus, but you are left to work out how to achieve the rest by working with your individual body characteristics. Things like different finger lengths, palm widths etc are left for the individual to figure out. By focussing on keeping the pinky straight across the fretboard as a main objective, it also prevents you twisting the hand away from the line of the neck. In order to give the first three fingers room to manoeuvre it makes you give more from the left side of the hand, rather than lift the right side away.

As an aside:The G chop chord trick of placing the pinky and third before the others reminds me of this particular approach, it doesn't go into detail about how that makes you bring the hand around the neck more or how reaching back down the neck with 1st &2nd is more controlled than reaching up the neck. There's a similar cello exercise to accustom people to reaches by using the 3&4 as the anchor and reaching back rather than stretching forward.

The third trick it seems to use is telling you to relax the pinky. To do that the whole hand has to shed tension.
It reminds me of the trick of putting the shetland pony in with all the firey thoroughbreds. They all calm down when there's the obvious runt in the herd. By working to the needs of the weakest, or most prone to the effects of tension, the others have to work to a much lower level of tension or it will fail. This is a big part of why I persisted with the exercise after the week, despite my initial impression that it was just an interesting trick, I could feel how I was having to relax the whole hand and at that point tension was a big issue for me. I already had proof that Rex had sorted out my arm tensions with one mornings 'tricks' so I was prepared to work on it more & knew he wasn't just recommending some fancy nonsense. This exercise and some other minimum effort ones really got me working with much less effort.

Anyway those are just a few of the ways that one exercise helps by working with rather than against peoples own physique.

There are plenty of exercises I have tried where I've just never got what's going on or where I've thought they were doing those unnatural 'guitarish' ache-inducing forced stuff. I give up on that kind of thing straight off, life's too short & health too important to go risking it with contortions. But this and a few others I regularly revisit just to remind my hand & take a time out to see if I'm letting tension creep back in to things. I should also say I'm not normally playing with my pinky straight across the fretboard & I don't try to keep it static either, it just sits there in a relaxed curve as long as the other fingers are behaving bobbing along hovering ready until needed. But every now and then it does get used as a damper too, especially on the mandoloncello to control sustain or crop a note.
The thing I would say again from my previous post is, you don't have to be efficient or elegant to play, but you may wan't to be for various advantages that will give you. With a bog-standard physical make up and a few well designed exercises from good teachers it's within your grasp. I consider myself to have been lucky to have had those (except for fat fingers with arthritis, I'll swap those for an upgrade anytime)