Diminished chords and diminished 7ths

[Keith Erickson]

I'm desparate Folks!!!!

Please help me with this. I'm totally frustrated http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I don't know where to turn to who to talk with in making this subject of the "diminished" sink into my brain.

Any suggestions?

Sorry for the tone of my post http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[David Horovitz]

I'm no expert at theory, but here's the way I think of it.

It has to do with the intervals of the scale notes that make up the chord.

Consider the C Major scale, which has no sharps or flats, and the notes that make up the C Maj7 chord:

C - D - E - F - G - A - B #-->> C Maj7 = C - E - G - B

The intervals between each of the notes in the chord are:
Major 3rd (C to E)
Minor 3rd (E to G)
Major 3rd (G to B)

Now, start the scale on the B note, using the same notes as the C major scale.

B - C - D - E - F - G - A

Building a chord from the root, 3rd, 5th and 7th using these notes, gives you a B half-diminished chord. B dim7 = B - D - F - A

The intervals between each of the notes in the chord are:
Minor 3rd (B to D)
Minor 3rd (D to F)
Major 3rd (F to A)

To make a full dimished chord, you would need to make the A natural an Ab. So a full dimished chord stacks 3 Minor 3rd intervals on top of each other whereas a half diminished chord stacks 2 Minor 3rd intervals and then 1 Major 3rd interval.

On mandolin, you don't need to voice all four notes, but the most important ones are the 3rd and 5th steps of the scale, to convey the diminished sound.

Hope this helps.

[jmcgann]

If you understand 1 3 5 (major)
1 b3 5 (minor)

then a diminshed triad is like minor with a flat 5 (1 b3 b5).

The 7th is otherwise known as scale tone 6- we call it double flat 7 for reasons you don't need to worry about yet.

So in C:

CEG (major triad)
CEbG (minor triad)
CEbGb (diminished triad)
CEbGbA (diminished 7th)

[Jim Broyles]

Bbb, right John? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[John Flynn]

I am sure the guys who posted above know a lot more about theory than I do and I may be saying some of this in the wrong terminology, but some interesting things I discovered about diminished chords that have helped me understand them is:

1. A diminished chord is not a modification of a major or minor chord, like just adding a 7th. It is a whole different kind of chord. The four basic kinds are: Major, minor, diminished and augmented.

2. The diminished 7th is a "circle" of minor 3rds (three half steps), so if you take the "C diminished 7th," CEbGbA example above, add yet another minor third, you are right back to C again, which is kind of cool.

3. The previous factor also means that every diminished chord can be an inversion of four different diminshed chords. So CEbGbA can be used interchangably as Cdim7, Ebdim7, Gbdim7 and Adim7. It's like four chords in one!

4. On the mando, a basic C dim7 shape is 5465, which is a moveable form that gets you to all the possible dim chords easily.

5. The main purpose of diminished chords is to create some instability, dissonance or tension that needs to be resolved.

[re simmers]

The positions common to string music are nearly always diminished '7ths.'

[Bruce Clausen]

From your topic title it sounds like you're not clear which chord is which (dim and dim7). It's only in theory classes that people talk about diminished triads (the three-note chord B-D-F in the key of C). In the real world "diminished" almost always means the four-note diminished seventh chord. This is the one that's played 2132, or 3243, or 4354, etc. As Johnny pointed out, every three frets you're back to the same chord again, since A dim7 and C dim7 and Eb dim7 and F# dim7 all contain exactly the same notes (so far as we here are concerned, since this is not a theory class). They're used for smoothing the passage from one chord to another. So you can go from C to G7 putting C dim7 in between, or C to Dm putting C# dim7, or Dm to Em putting D# dim7, etc. Just try adding them here and there. They were a mainstay of all those old waltzes of a hundred years ago.

BC

[groveland]

Also, lowering any tone of a dim7 chord yields a dominant 7 chord. Like

3243 -> 2243
3243 -> 3242
3243 -> 3143
3243 -> 3233

So they're really closely related.

Also, dom7 chords with a b9 in them generally lend themselves to that dim7 shape if you omit a tone or two. That's particularly useful on mandolin where you only have 4 tones to work with at a time anyway. Like, what's a G7b9 chord except a G#dim7 chord with the root omitted? Take that 'dim7 shape' up the neck every step and a half and you have yourself four G7b9 chords.

The point is, you'll find that dim7 extremely versatile, and you'll even hear it hiding inside some bigger chords with ugly names. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Keith Erickson]

....and I continue to scratch my head in confusion http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Thank you all for replying. I feel like I've wasted all of your time because it's still not sinking in.

...let me grab a cup of coffee http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[groveland]

It's NOT a waste of time, and everybody truly wants to help!

I think maybe all the posts in the world won't do as much good as some face-to-face with an instructor. That way you can hear it and see it in action. Is that an option?

(Plus, it takes a little time to see where you're at, so the posters know what to address.... Don't give up.)

[olgraypat]

"5. The main purpose of diminished chords is to create some instability, dissonance or tension that needs to be resolved."

I can't add much to the diminished chord discussion, but it does somehow put me in the mind of my ex-wife. I suppose she was a diminished chord in the song of life.

[JeffD]

....and I continue to scratch my head in confusion #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Thank you all for replying. #I feel like I've wasted all of your time because it's still not sinking in.

...let me grab a cup of coffee #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif
I think that verbal or written descriptions are often inadequate to describe musical concepts. You need to have someone show you on a mandolin or guitar, (or piano) what is going on, so you can hear what is going on.


I find that with music, first my ears "get it", then my mind follows. It doesn't usually work for me the other way.

[250sc]

What part is giving you problems?

Can you play a diminished(dim7)chord (5465)? If so just move the chord shape up 3 frets or down 3 frets for different inversions of the same chord.

Are you having trouble figuring out when to use one?

Or are you having problems playing a solo over them?

Diminished chords are a great way of moving from one part of the fingerboard to another as well as creating tension that will be resolved when you reach the next chord.

Give us a clue about your confusion.

[El Greco]

I think musictheory.net and their chord introduction helps a lot. Check it out... http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id40_en.html
musictheory.net (http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id40_en.html)

[AlanN]

Learn diminished chords, make new friends http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Keith Erickson]

What part is giving you problems?
All of it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I'm not sure what the numbers represent. It's just not sinkin' in.

I'm sorry for the bother....

Thank you for trying to break it in to my skull. You all have been great http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Walter Newton]

The numbers in the above posts are referring to 2 different things - EITHER scale/chord tones (1, 3, 5 - Root, 3rd, 5th or C, E, G in the key of C) OR chord fingerings (0023 would be an open G chord - 0 for open G string, 0 for open D string, 2 for 2nd fret of A string, 3 for 3rd fret of E string). #Before worrying about diminished chords do you understand things like the major scale, and how major/minor triads, and major/minor/dominant 7th chords are constructed?

[250sc]

I my case the numbers (5465)represented the string/frets to press down.

5465 was meant to represent playing a chord consisting of the G string at the 5th fret, the D string at the 4th fret, the A string at the 6th fret and the E sting at the 5th fret.

Play that chord then move it up or down 3 frets to play a different inversion of the same chord.

I don't think I can make it any simpler than that.

[AlanN]

You can't.

[AlanN]

Tiny Moore used diminished lines beautifully, in a very lyrical and nice-and-easy style. Jethro did too, maybe a bit 'harder'. Skaggs, in his youth, played them too and had a couple of favorite licks that he would use in different places. Grisman too, of course. True jazzers like Paul Glasse and Don Stiernberg roll 'em off effortlessly.

They (diminished licks) can really add spice to a tune. Ray Legere picks Ragtime Annie pretty straight, but throws in this one lick over the 5 chord which always makes me take notice. Now, on the other hand, if Doyle Lawson were to use such a lick, I would say "That ain't grass!"
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Keith Erickson]

Before worrying about diminished chords do you understand things like the major scale, and how major/minor triads, and major/minor/dominant 7th chords are constructed?
I've got the major/ minor thing down. 7th not a problem. I've even got he Gm6 thing going on and I totally understand it.

I'm just not sure what the standard template is that makes a diminished.

I guess the example below is how my mind is wanting to relate:

In a D7, the C is the 7th; for G7, the 7th is the F. I could go on and on about Maj7 and Min7 too but I wanted to use this as an example to explain how my mind is working.

I hope this cracks the case. What is the standard template that one would use for Dim and Dim 7th?

[Walter Newton]

OK, well if you've truly got a handle on that stuff you should be almost there - starting with the triads, if you know the formulas for major and minor are

major - 1, 3, 5 of scale - C, E, G in the key of C
minor - 1, b3, 5 of scale - C, Eb, G

then all a diminished triad is

dim - 1, b3, b5 - C, Eb, Gb

Before going on to the dim7 does that make sense to you?

[Keith Erickson]

OK, well if you've truly got a handle on that stuff you should be almost there - starting with the triads, if you know the formulas for major and minor are

major - 1, 3, 5 of scale - C, E, G in the key of C
minor - 1, b3, 5 of scale - C, Eb, G

then all a diminished triad is

dim - 1, b3, b5 - C, Eb, Gb

Before going on to the dim7 does that make sense to you?
OK Walter, #Let's take a shot...

...triads I've learned from my days of self learning on the dulcimer. #Triad= 1,3,5 Notes (please confirm)

So if dim= 1, b3, b5 (C, Eb, Gb) then would a dim7= 1, b3, b5, 7 (C, Eb, Gb, & Bb)? #....or would the 7th be also a flat? # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

I think I'm seeing how this works and I won't be disappointed if I got this wrong.

I'll keep my figures crossed #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[AlanN]

double-flat the 7 (really a 6th) and you have it... dim7 = 1, b3, b5, 6 (C, Eb, Gb, & A)

as has been said above.

[Walter Newton]

"Triad" is a 3 note chord built in thirds - yes 1, 3, 5 is a major triad, there are also minor (1 b3 5), diminished (1 b3 b5) and augmented (1, 3, #5) triads.

To take make a diminished 7th chord you take the 1, b3, and b5 - C, Eb, Gb - and add a DIMINISHED seventh - which is a half step lower than the a minor 7th - it's a "flat-flat-seventh". #This note is exactly the same as the 6th so it can be easier to think of it that way.

In the key of C the 7th note is a B, the b7 note is a Bb, the "bb7" note is a half step lower than that - an A, which is also called the 6th.

So:

C dim 7 - 1 b3 b5 bb7 = 1 b3 b5 6 - C Eb Gb A

Got it?

[AlanN]

Gee, all these people saying the same thing.

What's not to get?

[ApK]

The comment "I'm not sure what the numbers represent." should be the big red flag here.
'Diminished' is not what should be bothering you, Keith. #If you're not sure what the numbers mean, you need to find out, and understand it clearly and well. #If you're interested in theory, you should have a solid foundation before you try to build on it, or everything will be shakey.
If you go back to square one and review basic music theory (like by checking out some of the really good free theory sites on the web) and make sure you fully understand each concept before moving on, then by the time you get to diminished chords, they will make every bit as much sense to you as major or minor chords, and you will find you have a better theoretical understanding of major and minor chords as well.

[Keith Erickson]

So:

C dim 7 - 1 b3 b5 bb7 = 1 b3 b5 6 - C Eb Gb A

Got it?

Walter, I believe that I do finally "get it". I know that pretty much John mentioned that example before but for some strange reason it just didn't sink in at the time.

I did re-read all of the posts and I appreciate everyones input and most of all your patience. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Gee, all these people saying the same thing.

What's not to get?

Alan, Again my apologies for being slow on the uptake on this. Again I would like to say Thank You as well for your understanding and patience with me on this subject.


The comment "I'm not sure what the numbers represent." should be the big red flag here.


You're absolutely right!!!! I was not sure if those were chord's or scales. It might sound like a space cadet answer but truly until I stepped back to look at this again and again and again and....

...it didn't make any sense what so ever.

Signed, Forever Thankful in Texas http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Walter Newton]

Walter, I believe that I do finally "get it". #I know that pretty much John mentioned that example before but for some strange reason it just didn't sink in at the time.

I did re-read all of the posts and I appreciate everyones input and most of all your patience. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Glad I could help! There's lots of good info in this thread - these chords are very "interesting" - so it's worth the effort to re-read it until it all sinks in.

(I agree about the importance of getting a solid foundation in the basics, too. There are tons of basic music theory sites on the web, they don't have to be mando-specific to be useful.)

[250sc]

8_String_Keith,

I'm glad the "light bulb" is starting to turn on for you. What has happened that got you interested in diminished chords. Are you working on a song that uses them or did you just decide it's time to figure them out?

I'm fortunate in that I tend to just remember things I hear and find them on whatever instrument I'm playing. Normally I don't try to figure out why they work until I've figured out how to use them. In other words the theory comes after the revelation but we all learn differently.

Good luck.

[Keith Erickson]

8_String_Keith,

What has happened that got you interested in diminished chords? Are you working on a song that uses them or did you just decide it's time to figure them out?
250sc,

Those are good questions!!!

It seems as of lately our church choir has been playing some songs that have Dim or Dim7 chords. #

Last weekend we played a tune with a Fdim chord. #I figured that I would cheat and play straight F on the mandolin. #Unfortunately the piano played the Fdim and it was a complete train wreck to my ears. #

In another song, we were required to play at dim7. #I played the straight 7th while the piano dim7. #Needless to say the Red Baron had a much more graceful crash that I did.

This sudden interest in dim/ dim7 chords was born out of complete frustration and embarrassment that I didn't feel that I was doing right by the rest of the choir as well as taking pride in the work that I did.

I know from time to time that I have "cheated" but it's kind of hard to cheat on these types of chords.

[mythicfish]

Now that you know what it is ... what are you going to do with it?

Curt

[Keith Erickson]

Now that you know what it is ... what are you going to do with it?

Curt
I refer you to the answer that I gave 250sc.

[jmcgann]

Hi Keith-

The train wreck might have been from being off a half step or so- the wrong diminshed is a powerful dissonance, since the RIGHT one is as well http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

You'll get used to them. It's good to pick just one tune where it's used and practice a bunch to get used to the connection.

[Keith Erickson]

Hi Keith-

The train wreck might have been from being off a half step or so- the wrong diminshed is a powerful dissonance, since the RIGHT one is as well http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

You'll get used to them. It's good to pick just one tune where it's used and practice a bunch to get used to the connection.
You know John you're right!!! I do owe you and many others a huge THANK YOU and many apologies. It just didn't sink in until page 2.

I don't think I could improvise on a dim or dim7 but I could definitely practice one if it shows up on the sheet music.

...and I already have and it works great http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[250sc]

Keith,

After you get used to playing the Dim chords you might be suprised when you try soloing over them. You can try starting on any of the notes in the chord and play a scale consisting of Whole step, Half step, Whole step, Half step........

It is a symetrical scale. Just remember that and the fact that every 3 frets you have a different inversion of the original diminished chord and you'll be running those diminished sounds all over the fingerboard.

It's nice to remember that train wrecks can bring about learning. If you never make mistakes your probably not trying anything new.

[Keith Erickson]

After you get used to playing the Dim chords you might be suprised when you try soloing over them. You can try starting on any of the notes in the chord and play a scale consisting of Whole step, Half step, Whole step, Half step........

Boy Greg, #You really have faith in my learning curve #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif # All joking aside... # I appreciate the info. #Right now I'll just stick to the basic chord structure until I can run with the soloing. #Thank you!!!


It's nice to remember that train wrecks can bring about learning. If you never make mistakes your probably not trying anything new.

I agree with you on the train wrecks but I still stick to my original comment on how the Red Baron gracefully crashed. #It's factually true that the Red Baron actually landed his plan before he died of his bullet wound.

My dim7 chord experience was a crash and burn situation #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[pickinpox]

If you play in an ensemble, you will find that many times a diminished chord will occur without even making an attempt to form it. Here is an example. Key of C: The group is playing a C chord and preparing to change to G7, the bass walks up a half step (breaking his alternating pattern) going from C to C# on his way to D (part of the G7) At the very moment you play are chording the C (assuming the C note in the chord is not too overwhelming) for the last time before the change, the bass is playing the C# and together you are forming a C# diminished chord which is a common transition from C to G7.

What has happend is that the note for which the chord is named (in the case C) has simply moved up a half step leaving the other notes alone and the diminished chord is formed automatically and in the right place!

Clear as mud? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[groveland]

(assuming the C note in the chord is not too overwhelming)
Kindof. Have to omit the C altogether to be a diminished.

<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>Otherwise, you have a C(add b9) chord. There is a diminished hiding in there, but if you leave the C, I'm thinking you'd really be looking to add the dom7 for a C7(b9) there. And, like you suggest, omitting the root from that gets you the C#dim7. (see my previous post) You can use any of those 1 1/2 step-apart C#dim7 inversions at that point.</span>

[pickinpox]

Have to omit the C altogether to be a diminished.


Hopefully on mandolin the C will decay soon enough not to clash with the C#. Would be painful on organ I know. I was trying to explain it from a different angle without discussing any theory since that was well covered in previous posts. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[MandoBen]

So, if i already know how to make a Cm6, then all I have to do is flat the 5th? Hope this doesn't open a can of worms.

[Walter Newton]

So, if i already know how to make a Cm6, then all I have to do is flat the 5th? Hope this doesn't open a can of worms.
Yes that will do it.

Cm6 - 1 b3 5 6 - C Eb G A

C dim7 - 1 b3 b5 bb7 = 1 b3 b5 6 - C Eb Gb A

[Jim Broyles]

Okay, but the theory literalists are going to say that it is wrong to call the double flatted 7th an A. The proper nomenclature is Bbb. The 7th degree of a C scale has to be named B something. When you write the chord in notation, it should not have an A note in it, lest the wrong idea be conveyed.

[jmcgann]

Okay, but the theory literalists are going to say that it is wrong to call the double flatted 7th an A. The proper nomenclature is Bbb. The 7th degree of a C scale has to be named B something. When you write the chord in notation, it should not have an A note in it, lest the wrong idea be conveyed.


Technically very true, but in practice, no one outside of the macho classical readers wants to read double sharps or double flats, and you will very very rarely if ever see them in 'street music' (jazz, bluegrass, rock, etc.)...even if they are theoretically 'incorrect', they are not found much outside of classical music notation.

[entau]

I had this book called chord chemistry ( for guitar ) with like a million different postions on the guitar for every conceivable chord- i forget the author -Peter - something - left coast hippy dippy jazz musician with about 30 different electric guitars on the cover

anyway - his explenation of diminished and diminshed 7th chords is that they do not sound good when played all by themselves - they actually sound "wrong"

but when you play them in a chord progression - that is when they really make a difference and can be quite effective to swing the tune or move the music

tunes like satin doll and autumn leaves are good examples

i'm sure jethro or tiny moore have plenty of examples

[jmcgann]

"Chord Chemistry" is by Ted Greene, (http://www.tedgreene.com/) who sadly died in 2005. He was an absolute genius guitarist whose one album called "Solo guitar" is a masterpiece of inventive arranging.

[250sc]

I've seen this term used on this forum before.

"left coast hippy dippy jazz musician"

Can't you imagine that this term might be at least a little insulting?

Site rules state

"Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times."

[AlanN]

Funny, I would never have characterised Ted Greene as that. I remember the venerable Mike Marshall citing Ted as a genius.

[Peter Hackman]

Before worrying about diminished chords do you understand things like the major scale, and how major/minor triads, and major/minor/dominant 7th chords are constructed?
I've got the major/ minor thing down. 7th not a problem. #I've even got he Gm6 thing going on and I totally understand it. #

I'm just not sure what the standard template is that makes a diminished.

I guess the example below is how my mind is wanting to relate:

In a D7, the C is the 7th; for G7, the 7th is the F. #I could go on and on about Maj7 and Min7 too but I wanted to use this as an example to explain how my mind is working.

I hope this cracks the case. #What is the standard template that one would use for Dim and Dim 7th?
There are various ways of conceiving a dim7 chord. One is
to start from 7 chord, e.g., C7, then lower all the notes except the root. That gives you c dim7. Another is to keep the upper notes and
raise the root only, yielding c #dim 7.

Those are the ways the chord might enter some standard
progressions and turnarounds, like
C-cdim7 - dm7-G7 (although you might prefer eb dim 7 as the second chord,
which is just an inversion of cdim7, i.e., the same notes stacked differently)
and C-c#dim7-dm7-G7. Try these - you will recognize them from, uh,
somewhere.

Sometimes you will hear it as an incomplete 7b9 chord, e.g.,
c#dim 7 is A7b9 with the root removed.

In classical music, e.g., Beethoven symphonies, the dim chord is
often used to prepare a modulation or
create suspense and ambiguity - due to its symmetry
(there are really only three different dim chords), for any possible resolution
there are three more.

[jmcgann]

FWIW Benny Goodman used just diminished chords for most of the bridge of "Air Mail Special (Good Enough to Keep)" in the 1930's, so saying they sound "wrong" is pretty subjective, and I think Ted may have been addressing people who are used to music that sticks, more or less, to the white keys of the piano http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

PS- I agree with 250cc, that was a very lame "hippy dippy" comment.

[250sc]

I think the last time is saw this phrase used on this forum it was discribing David Grissman.

There are lots of less offensive ways to discribe musicians.

[entau]

yes Ted Green -and I meant it tounge in cheek -

for I am myself a 100% born and raised - dyed in the wool-
left coast hippy dippy jazz ....whatever

although I've only been to california once.

[entau]

and I take offense at the comment about

"people who are used to music that sticks, more or less, to the white keys of the piano"

[jmcgann]

'twasn't aimed at you, unless you are a big Carpenters fan (and c'mon, don't get offended, Carpenters fans! Did you know Pat Metheny is a big Carpenters fan, no joke?)

[250sc]

Without emoticons it's hard to tell if the term was tounge in cheek - or from someone putting down Mr. Green or the left coast or jazz.

No harm done and I hope you get over being offended by the "white key" comment. My guess is that it doesn't apply to you anyway. ;-)

[entau]

why do birds
suddenly appear....

la la la la

hmmm could really use a diminished 7th right about there

[Jim Broyles]

Okay, but the theory literalists are going to say that it is wrong to call the double flatted 7th an A. The proper nomenclature is Bbb. The 7th degree of a C scale has to be named B something. When you write the chord in notation, it should not have an A note in it, lest the wrong idea be conveyed.


Technically very true, but in practice, no one outside of the macho classical readers wants to read double sharps or double flats, and you will very very rarely if ever see them in 'street music' (jazz, bluegrass, rock, etc.)...even if they are theoretically 'incorrect', they are not found much outside of classical music notation.
See, being kind of self taught at this stuff, and never being involved in any of the sight-reading scene, street or otherwise, I did not know this. I have an Oberlin grad prodigy for a praise team member at our church, so I have been kind of careful to stick to as correct a theory lingo as I can. BTW, she is not the least bit pretentious or pedantic about music, and I'm sure I could get away with calling a Bbb an A with her.

[Jim Broyles]

8_String_Keith:I'm just not sure what the standard template is that makes a diminished.

Here's what I was taught in my one semester of theory and harmony 38 years ago;

The triads (basic three note chords):
Major triad = a major 3rd (C-E) with a minor 3rd on top of it (E-G)
Minor triad = a minor 3rd (C-Eb) with a major 3rd on top of it - (Eb-G)
Augmented triad = a major 3rd (C-E) with a major 3rd on top of it (E-G#)
Diminished triad = a minor 3rd (C-Eb)with a minor 3rd on top of it (Eb-Gb)

To make a diminished triad a dim7, add the note which is up another minor third from the 5th. I diminished scale is half-step, whole step, half-step, whole step...but a diminished arpeggio can be a series of minor thirds.

[Phil Goodson]

Major triad = a major 3rd (C-E) with a minor 3rd on top of it (E-G)
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Do most of you guys THINK in terms of intervals like major 3rds or fifths or whatever?

My brain does well with thinking "the 1 & 3 of the scale" or the 1 & flatted 3" of the scale, or "the 3, 5, & flat 7".

Am I just not thinking in an educated way, or are intervals just too hard for me?

How do most of you think about chord construction? Do you picture a keyboard or just the fingerboard of the instrument, or none of the above?

Ponderingly,
Phil

[Mike Bunting]

Do most of you guys THINK in terms of intervals like major 3rds or fifths or whatever?

I do, when I think! Makes transposition a lot easier. I never picture the fretboard, I try to hear the note rather than see where they lie. Practicing arpeggios will provide an outline for the chords and scales.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jmcgann]

Intervals are really good to get to know and recognize. If you work with them long enough, they get to be semi-automatic and really help you in hearing melodies and replicating them on your instrument; in improvisation and composition, and chord construction, among other cool things...

Think of the functions (3rd, b7 etc.) is equally crucial, though. With enough practice, the more ways you can look at and hear something, the easier it becomes to recall and use. Of course, the key is not trying to look at everything from every angle at once- it takes time to get used to any given viewpoint, and it's good to get deep with one before moving onto the next-because they are all related, and one reinforces and complements the other.

Eventually! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Harrmob]

Phil, that is a good question. I don't think like that...yet, I have 1 dim chord pattern and only use it on 3 frets depending, 2 dim scale patterns for those 3 frets, it makes all 12 chords/notes, and I like throw them on top of 2 chords.

[Phil Goodson]

Intervals are really good to get to know ..... help you in hearing melodies and replicating them ....
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Okay. Although I don't get around to labeling what I'm doing, I DO hear when a IV chord or a V or a II chord are coming up in a tune and recognize those patterns in songs I'm listening to.
I just don't think of intervals when I'm constructing chords, I guess.

I do use intervals when transposing, I suppose. I think: "if the root chord of the new key is 4 half steps above the original root chord, then the NEW IV chord is 4 half steps above the OLD IV chord. But that's not exactly THINKING in intervals.

Oh well. As long as we have a structure in our brains that works and as long as we can hear what we're trying to create, I guess it doesn't matter so much what we call it.

Trying-to-better-myself-ly,
Phil

[groveland]

Phil, that is a good question. I don't think like that...yet, I have 1 dim chord pattern and only use it on 3 frets depending, 2 dim scale patterns for those 3 frets, it makes all 12 chords/notes, and I like throw them on top of 2 chords.
I'm thinking you would need 3 "dim scale patterns for those 3 frets", not 2. (I think two half-whole-half and one whole-half-whole)

I'm thinking you would need a chromatic scale to actually "make all 12 chords/notes". Did I miss your meaning?

I also would like to know in what way does a diminished scale work with the notes of a 2 chord.

Thanks!

[ApK]

Oh well. As long as we have a structure in our brains that works and as long as we can hear what we're trying to create, I guess it doesn't matter so much what we call it.

Trying-to-better-myself-ly,
Phil
It matters a lot if it interests you. Otherwise, what's the point of having a forum to discuss it?

[250sc]

"It matters a lot if it interests you. Otherwise, what's the point of having a forum to discuss it?"

It only matters if you want to talk about it, not if you want to play it.

I think Phil was thinking that as long and you hear it in your head and can make it come out of your hands it's not necessary to know what everything you play is called. (Unless you want to talk about it)

Phil, #I think I'm similar to you in that I don't hear a group of notes and think "that's a fifth, that's a minor third...." I still hear and play the intervals, I just don't try to identify them. (Unless I stumble into something cool, then I try to figure out what it is.)

[Jim Broyles]

In the second example above, the Fb should be F natural, and in the third example the F should be F#. The dim chord shape I use on mandolin is 3-2-4-3, and move it up or down accordingly. Each dim chord is indeed four chords and another way to say it is that every note in the chord names the chord. That way, if you know the notes on your fretboard, and you know the chord shape you want, you can always make a dim chord by forming one with the note you want to name the dim by in it. The other thing is that each dim chord repeats every 3rd fret.

[Harrmob]

[fixed as above noted]
Grove, this is what I mean, and it was introduced to me as the secret to dimished chords. I hope I am not breaking some musicians code, but this is the chord pattern I play. One Dim chord is actually 4 chords. It does not make sense to move this pattern up three frets b/c it would be the same notes. Likewise with the ascending scale, move it up 3 frets and it is the same notes. Below, the first chord is the dim chord for G, Db, E, Bb and the ascending scale for the same key, move it up a fret and ..... As far as the 2 chord, like in Salty Dog in G. When the A chord comes around, throw in a G dim lick. I may have worded it wrong- still learning to speak the language.

[Harrmob]

thanks jbmando, that is what I was trying to say...

[groveland]

Harrmob - Ahhh, like I suspected, I misread. The "scale patterns" are diminished arpeggios, and the the "2 chord" you're talking about would actually be a II7(b9) chord, (A7 with the Gdim7 arpeggio over it) which is very cool. (see my earlier posts) Thanks for the clarification. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Phil Goodson]

ApK: "It matters a lot if it interests you. Otherwise, what's the point of having a forum to discuss it?"

450sc: "It only matters if you want to talk about it, not if you want to play it."
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BINGO!!

And Harrmob, your example of diminished scales & how you use them is pretty cool. Thanks.

Phil

[Jim Broyles]

Phil, I used to believe that, but when I finally understood intervals, triads and other points of music theory, it opened up a vast expanse of musical ground for me to PLAY that up until then I had been missing. Sure, I already played some of the stuff I found out the theory behind, but once I actually knew what it was, it was just a flood of compositional and improvisational (which is to say extemporaneous composition anyway) ideas that has kind of lurked in my knowledge base but I didn't know how or why to use. Yes, I do think in terms of intervals a lot.

[Phil Goodson]

jbmando,

Thanks for your comments.
Sounds like I've been missing some opportunities. Do you have any suggestions about how to develop an appreciation of intervals? Are there exercises to help develop an ear for these? Are there resources that can help me name what I'm hearing? I think I can hear the intervals but am not stopping to label what I'm hearing.

I'm still not sure exactly how that will translate into improv and new ideas. Any help available?

In your mind, are you thinking, "now I'll just jump up a minor third" or something, while I'm thinking something like, "now let's jump to the minor 3" or "the flat 7" or something similar? [I think I'm dense.]
[I need a Vulcan Mind Meld with some of you guys.] http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

P.S. Does all this need to go to a new thread?

Thanks,
Phil

[AlanN]

Yes Harmmob, those patterns form the essence of play over dim chords. Tiny Moore is/was the master on playing lines like this over dim changes. Just using pieces of the runs can add excitement and groove.

[jmcgann]

Django is another master of the diminished (and I think he was influential on Tiny as well).

My Django on Mando series (http://www.djangobooks.com/archives/2007/08/08/new_gypsy_jazz_mandolin_lessons_by_john_mcgann.htm l#001049) has quite a few diminished lines that are used especially for the 7b9 sound.

Actually, the full diminshed used on the 7b9 gives you the natural 13 (6) which is gnarly in combination with the b9/#9/#11 contained in the scale:

C7: C E G Bb
C7 with the whole/half sequence starting on the b9 (OR half/whole starting on the root):
C Db Eb E F# G A Bb or 1 b9 #9 3 #4 5 6(13) b7

Note the C7 chord tones are still intact. The full chord symbol would be C7b9/#9/#11/13 which is unwieldy; you can mix and match any of those 'color tones'.

This sound is related to the slightly less gnarly harmonic minor mode of the target I chord (which would be F). Notes from C:

C Db E F G Ab Bb or 1 b9 3 4 5 b6(b13) b7. The chord symbol would be C7b9b13. The b13 blends as a sonority more with the b9, and is found all over the music of Charlie Parker (to name one).

[groveland]

Do you have any suggestions about how to develop an appreciation of intervals? #...I'm still not sure exactly how that will translate into improv and new ideas. #
In the final analysis, chords and scales are identified primarily by intervals in the 12-tone equal temperament system, not by notes. I'm thinking that when we hear a scale or chord, we are not hearing the notes, but we are hearing the relationships between the notes - And those are intervals.

I mention this because people so often can't see the scale or chord through all the notes. (I think of intervals as potential energy, like rubber bands stretched to varying degrees. Notes are at rest.)

Major scale is w-w-h-w-w-w-h, harmonic minor is w-h-w-w-h-wh-h, melodic minor is w-h-w-w-w-w-h, etc. (where w=whole, h=half, wh=step-and-a-half). Major chords are all major 3rd, minor 3rd. Minor chords are all minor 3rd, major 3rd. Seventh chords are all major 3rd, minor 3rd, minor 3rd. Etc. (To this degree, the notes don't matter.)

The actual notes played depend on where the scale or chord is placed, but the identifying scale or chord intervals are always the same no matter where the thing is placed. So these sets of intervals are portable. They are templates of interval sets laid over 12 tones.

How does this help improv? For me, I don't think 'What note should I play next?' I know the set of intervals that are available starting on the designated tonic. And I play within those parameters.

How do I know the set of intervals? If you have a set of chords (a passage in a tune), the union of the chords (a set of intervals) will identify one or more scales that they could have come from. Like if you see a Ima7, iimi7, iiimi7, you know you are seeing the first 3 chords of a major scale. Conversely, if you have a major scale, you have 7 intervals, and you know what chord types come from that: basically ma7, mi7, mi7, ma7, 7, mi7, mi7(b5). So recognizing chord types tells you what scales to play, and recognizing scales tells you what chords can come out of them. And that's basically what I play (of course attempting to accomodate the functions of the degrees of the scale, gravity, and all that).

I hope this helps a bit. I'm sure there are a couple other ways of looking at it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jmcgann]

...I was lucky enough to study arranging and composition, so I think in pitches AND intervals. Working with the great Herb Pomeroy (who sadly passed away last month) really drove the essentials of dealing with chords and scales into my mind; one of the courses started with being able to write every scale for any chord (within the usual jazz lexicon) in all 12 keys- and one mistake got you a "D"! That kind of thing, if you are into it, gets you on top of the game very quickly- and for me, it stuck, as I continued to use it for both improvisation, transcription, composition/arranging- you name it.

So, the more tools you have, and the more time you put in learning to use them, the better your understanding of the basic craft. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[groveland]

<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>Theory is BACK on the board! Yesss!</span>

<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>(I think this board was suffering from summer doldrums or something.)</span>

[groveland]

And I am really very sorry to hear about Herb Pomeroy. I of course never had the good fortune to meet him, but he was clearly a hugely influential authority on jazz theory - I'm hoping there are plenty of folks to carry the torch.

[jmcgann]

Tribute Page to Herb Pomeroy (http://alumni.berklee.edu)

[Phil Goodson]

Groveland,

Thank you very much for you explanations. I have an intellectual understanding of pretty much all you said. I DO think in terms of the I, iim, iiim, etc. chords of the scales as I play and transpose. I have the whole/half step patterns down (at least in the scales that use most). But I guess I am not used to using the term "intervals" when I describe what I'm thinking. Maybe it's just a terminology thing!

I think I understand the infrastructure of this much better than I am able to then use that knowledge in a practical way every day. Maybe I just need a teacher who's into music theory more.

Anyway, this is a very interesting topic and I hope I can expand all of this into my music on a practical level.

Thanks to all of you. And any other suggestions will always be appreciated. (You guys are so smart!!)&lt;I'm serious.&gt;

Phil