Pick Directions

[Youda]

OK, I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum many times before. Please forgive the revisit of this topic.

Lately I've been on this quest to improve my technique. One thing I'm doing is starting back at Book 1 with Bickford, and going through it all. Hence, this question.

When I started playing mandolin, in some of the Mel Bay books, it shows a strict up and down pick direction pattern that is maintained unless there's some reason to break this pattern.

Bickford is only using an up stroke if there are 8th notes or 16th notes, and everything else is a down stroke. All quarter notes and whole notes are played with a down stroke. Doing it "the Bickford way" has sure improved the tone.

My question is: what do you do? What is the "wisdom" or the "rule" with up/down strokes? Which is correct: up/down alternating regardless of the note value, or only up strokes if the note value is 8th notes or faster? (Of course, recognizing that there are exceptions to every rule.)

Thanks!

[Youda]

Good grief! I just looked at the clock. It's 02:30 here. I've been working on pick directions for the last 4 hours. I'm hopeless.

[mandolirius]

I wasn't very strict with myself when I was learning to play, so I don't really have a consistent approach. In my constant quest to improve my right hand, I now try for alternating strokes with eighth and sixteenth notes. Quarter and half notes are more subject to how I want the note to sound, so I'm not opposed to putting two downstrokes together. I know you're not a bluegrass guy but there's that Monroe all downstroke style that's another story altogether. :)

[Don Stiernberg]

I think what's critical is to use a downstroke on an accented beat in the measure. Hence, the Bickford and Mel Bay may actually be consistent with one another...the 'ands" in a series of eighth notes would be ups, while the second half note in a bar would be a down because it lands on the accented beat three....

This post coming from someone whose picking is a mess. Hopefully a classicist or fiddletunologist or Celtic specialist will weigh in, but it seems the direction of the pick might be determined by where the accents are in the phrases, rather than by a blanket rule.

[pickloser]

I learned with the Bickford method book, as did my teacher, who took lessons from Walter Kaye Bauer. a well known mandolinist in his day. My teacher, and his teacher, agreed with Bickford. The "fastest" notes that regularly occur in the piece should be DUDU (leaving aside 6/8 time and triplets for another discussion/debate). The rest should be downstrokes. He said, if you can't play the second fastest notes in the piece with downstrokes, then you are going too fast and the fastest notes (the 16ths or 8ths) are being played in a sloppy fashion. My teach pointed out that the down stroke is stronger, has better tone, is more easily controlled and with good form, it always strikes both strings in the course. He added that on the up stroke, most of the time, one is only hitting one string. I doubted this, thinking that surely I was hitting both on the upstroke, but the first time I practiced this mindfully, I saw and heard that he was right. After I finally got this in my head, I played a choro, where the accented notes just begged to be played on the upstroke. "Rules should be broken, if you know why you want to break them" was what I was told then.

I pay less attention to it now, but I find that it is easy to fall into DUDU out of laziness, even when the speed or feel of the tune does not require it.

I expect others may disagree with Bickford's take, but it's been working for me. YMMV

[mandozilla]

This post coming from someone whose picking is a mess.

Yeah...right...I should be so messy...:))

~o):popcorn:

[Youda]

Late last night, I wasn't even thinking about accented notes, or what might need to be accented (not just the musically marked, but first notes of measures, etc.) I think that untangles the confusion for me. I've learned that -- not all the time -- but for some songs of difficult phrases, deliberate pick directions and deciding how you want to accent it are as important to pay attention to as the note itself. Thanks!

BTW: not to derail my own thread, but for the record, I don't dislike all bluegrass, I play several bluegrass songs and enjoy a good chop sound and chord -- just like I enjoy a blues scale song -- I just believe that a knowledge of all genres and techniques are an important part of musical "growth" and learning.

[Barbara Shultz]

Late last night, I wasn't even thinking about accented notes, or what might need to be accented (not just the musically marked, but first notes of measures, etc.) I think that untangles the confusion for me. I've learned that -- not all the time -- but for some songs of difficult phrases, deliberate pick directions and deciding how you want to accent it are as important to pay attention to as the note itself. Thanks!



I have found that whenever I'm having trouble getting something right in a tune, especially up to speed, if I slow it down and analyze it, it's almost always I've got my pick direction wrong. So, I agree, pick direction is VERY important.

Do you read notation at all? It makes it much easier to grasp the concept, if you can read notation, and see how the notes fit into each measure, to get the pick direction right.

Barb

[floyd floar]

I think what's critical is to use a downstroke on an accented beat in the measure. Hence, the Bickford and Mel Bay may actually be consistent with one another...the 'ands" in a series of eighth notes would be ups, while the second half note in a bar would be a down because it lands on the accented beat three....

This post coming from someone whose picking is a mess. Hopefully a classicist or fiddletunologist or Celtic specialist will weigh in, but it seems the direction of the pick might be determined by where the accents are in the phrases, rather than by a blanket rule.

Wow. I look forward to the day when my picking is a mess like Don Stiernberg's!

[Martin Jonas]

My take on pick direction in non-composite time signatures (4/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, etc) is to sub-divide every beat into a downstroke/upstroke pair. If the note is on the beat, I play a downstroke, if the note is off the beat, an upstroke. For notes that are longer than these subdivisions, the stroke is simply omitted. Thus, if a bar in 4/4 time consists of two quarter notes followed by four eighths, I play d-d-dudu (all four beats stressed with downstrokes). For a dotted quarter followed by five eighths, I play d--ududu. Sometimes in pieces with a slower beat, it is better to sub-divide every beat into two downstroke/upstroke pairs. Thus, a bar in 4/4 time with two quarters, followed by two eighths followed by four sixteenths might be played d---d---d-d-dudu.

In composite (triplet) time signatures (6/8, 9/8 etc), each beat gets subdivided into either three strokes, played dud (some play ddu), or six strokes played dududu. Again, for notes that are longer than these subdivisions, a stroke is omitted. A bar of 6/8 consisting of a quarter followed by four eighths gets picked d-ddud (or alternatively d-uddu).

I believe this is a fairly widely used approach, consciously or not, and it naturally reinforces the pulse of the piece -- if your picking pattern reinforces the pulse, you're immediately much more likely to play in time.

Martin

[Mike Bunting]

My take on pick direction in non-composite time signatures (4/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, etc) is to sub-divide every beat into a downstroke/upstroke pair. If the note is on the beat, I play a downstroke, if the note is off the beat, an upstroke. For notes that are longer than these subdivisions, the stroke is simply omitted. Thus, if a bar in 4/4 time consists of two quarter notes followed by four eighths, I play d-d-dudu (all four beats stressed with downstrokes). For a dotted quarter followed by five eighths, I play d--ududu. Sometimes in pieces with a slower beat, it is better to sub-divide every beat into two downstroke/upstroke pairs. Thus, a bar in 4/4 time with two quarters, followed by two eighths followed by four sixteenths might be played d---d---d-d-dudu.

In composite (triplet) time signatures (6/8, 9/8 etc), each beat gets subdivided into either three strokes, played dud (some play ddu), or six strokes played dududu. Again, for notes that are longer than these subdivisions, a stroke is omitted. A bar of 6/8 consisting of a quarter followed by four eighths gets picked d-ddud (or alternatively d-uddu).

I believe this is a fairly widely used approach, consciously or not, and it naturally reinforces the pulse of the piece -- if your picking pattern reinforces the pulse, you're immediately much more likely to play in time.

Martin
Yes, that is the simplest method, plus it helps keep the rhythm together.

[Youda]

I have found that whenever I'm having trouble getting something right in a tune, especially up to speed, if I slow it down and analyze it, it's almost always I've got my pick direction wrong. So, I agree, pick direction is VERY important.

Do you read notation at all? It makes it much easier to grasp the concept, if you can read notation, and see how the notes fit into each measure, to get the pick direction right.

Barb


I read tab or notation. Yes, I agree that it's much easier with standard notation to see the kinds of notes, time signatures, etc., to help with the pick directions.

The ways to determine the pick directions from everyone is really helpful. Thanks!

[auteq]

[QUOTE=Martin Jonas;... If the note is on the beat, I play a downstroke, if the note is off the beat, an upstroke. ... , and it naturally reinforces the pulse of the piece -- if your picking pattern reinforces the pulse, you're immediately much more likely to play in time.

Martin[/QUOTE]

I agree this is the simplest method, and a fairly common method.
Another way I think of it is, if you tap your foot to the beat when playing, your pick will move in unison with your foot.

[Frank Johnson]

This post is just what I needed to read. I think I'm finally starting to understand what the phrase "you can't play the mandolin like a guitar" might mean.

When I (recently) started playing mandolin I figgered "not playing it like a guitar" meant the way you played rhythm was different (and that may be part of what it means). Well, I pick up on tunes easily and do real well at slow speed, but found out that when I speed up the tempo I have to change my picking style to maintain the speed. I can't simply use the same upstrokes and downstrokes like I do on the guitar.... gotta use them there fast mandolin-style upstrokes and downstrokes or I quickly get left waaaay behind!

Is that an epiphany, or what?

[Gelsenbury]

The Search function has come in useful. Thank you for this thread! :cool:



Bickford is only using an up stroke if there are 8th notes or 16th notes, and everything else is a down stroke. All quarter notes and whole notes are played with a down stroke. Doing it "the Bickford way" has sure improved the tone.

As a newbie, I was getting very confused about this very question. All my materials start out by teaching downstrokes. I'm only just learning upstrokes, and since their introduction coincides with eighths* appearing in the notation, I've been wondering if the DUDU pattern would apply to a melody of quarter-notes too. This clears it up.

(* Some people here are talking about sixteenths ... I'll never be able to play those in my life!)



My teacher, and his teacher, agreed with Bickford. The "fastest" notes that regularly occur in the piece should be DUDU (leaving aside 6/8 time and triplets for another discussion/debate). The rest should be downstrokes. He said, if you can't play the second fastest notes in the piece with downstrokes, then you are going too fast and the fastest notes (the 16ths or 8ths) are being played in a sloppy fashion. My teach pointed out that the down stroke is stronger, has better tone, is more easily controlled and with good form, it always strikes both strings in the course. He added that on the up stroke, most of the time, one is only hitting one string.

... and this tallies with my experience too. I'm glad even your teacher thinks that it's hard reliably to hit both strings on the upstroke. And what he says about pacing your tempo so that the second-fastest notes can all be played (theoretically) with downstrokes is genius. It's all becoming clear.



My take on pick direction in non-composite time signatures (4/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, etc) is to sub-divide every beat into a downstroke/upstroke pair. If the note is on the beat, I play a downstroke, if the note is off the beat, an upstroke. For notes that are longer than these subdivisions, the stroke is simply omitted. Thus, if a bar in 4/4 time consists of two quarter notes followed by four eighths, I play d-d-dudu (all four beats stressed with downstrokes). For a dotted quarter followed by five eighths, I play d--ududu.

Finally, thank you for this. The question about dotted notes would have been my obvious next one. I'll just need to work on internalising all this now. :):disbelief::mandosmiley:

[theCOOP]

I have found that whenever I'm having trouble getting something right in a tune, especially up to speed, if I slow it down and analyze it, it's almost always I've got my pick direction wrong. So, I agree, pick direction is VERY important.

Do you read notation at all? It makes it much easier to grasp the concept, if you can read notation, and see how the notes fit into each measure, to get the pick direction right.

Barb

I'm using the Mandolin Pickers Fakebook, which is written in TAB ofcourse, but has the markings/groupings (whatever) of standard notation (not just a series of numbers on lines), so the DUDU etc is quite obvious and intuitive. Once I knew this, the fingering shortcuts he showed me for the couple particular songs fell right into place.

[Ravenwood]

(* Some people here are talking about sixteenths ... I'll never be able to play those in my life!)

Sure you will. You would be surprised how many slow airs in Irish Trad have 16th notes. Its really more an issue of understanding the timing relationships of of 1/4 1/8 1/16 notes. If you slow the tempo down to where the 1/16ths are comfortable to play then develop the timing of the 1/8th and 1/4 notes in relation given the speed at which you are playing the 16ths the rest will come naturally. You can build speed in your own time and before you know it 1/16th notes will easy.

Picking direction can be fun, and it is important to learn fundamentals, but don't let yourself get stuck following rules that don't lend to the flow of the music. I tend to downpick on the beat rather than following hard rules about downpicking all 1/4 notes. Here's an example: a bar in 6/8 time begins with and 1/8 followed by a 1/4 which is followed by another 1/8 1/4 pair. I would pick it down on the first 1/8, up on the 1/4 note, down on the second 1/8 and up on the 1/4.

[theCOOP]

nevermind

[Jim Broyles]

Then you need to work on your technique. Proper pick strokes do not miss strings in the courses unless deliberately. You are probably flaring your pick out after it hits the first string. Drive your pick down through both strings in the course letting it come to rest on the next higher string. This is called rest stroke. It isn't necessary to play this way all the time, but it is good practice for making sure you are hitting both strings.
To pickloser - I doubt it as well. I hit both strings with all my strokes unless I am trying to miss one, which is rarely.

[theCOOP]

Then you need to work on your technique. Proper pick strokes do not miss strings in the courses unless deliberately. You are probably flaring your pick out after it hits the first string. Drive your pick down through both strings in the course letting it come to rest on the next higher string. This is called rest stroke. It isn't necessary to play this way all the time, but it is good practice for making sure you are hitting both strings.
To pickloser - I doubt it as well. I hit both strings with all my strokes unless I am trying to miss one, which is rarely.

Thanks. I had changed my post before you replied.

I played something right after posting the original message and realised I do hit both strings regularly on the down stroke, and on the up stroke, but I seem to get caught-up on the second string of the upstroke.

My pick seems to be perpendicular to the string (not exactly hooking it) and held somewhat loosely. If I stroke in a radius like my instructor taught me however, the pick just seems to slip over the string(s) with little effect/volume.

[Perry]

I think what's critical is to use a downstroke on an accented beat in the measure

This to me is it in a nutshell. Due to gravity our downstrokes tend to be more prominent then our upstrokes. Now some say that a useful excercise is to make our downstrokes and upstrokes have equal power. That ability would be great to have (and turn off) but I'm wondering......if we always picked with equal authority on up and down strokes; would we lose some "bounce" and thus start to sound like a "typewriter"?

[MadMarine]

I've been told by my mando teacher that composers of yesterday-year knew about the tonal differences in upstrokes and downstrokes. They used those differences to provide emphasis/de-emphasis in phrasing. Pick direction makes a difference.

[ralph johansson]

This post is just what I needed to read. I think I'm finally starting to understand what the phrase "you can't play the mandolin like a guitar" might mean.

When I (recently) started playing mandolin I figgered "not playing it like a guitar" meant the way you played rhythm was different (and that may be part of what it means). Well, I pick up on tunes easily and do real well at slow speed, but found out that when I speed up the tempo I have to change my picking style to maintain the speed. I can't simply use the same upstrokes and downstrokes like I do on the guitar.... gotta use them there fast mandolin-style upstrokes and downstrokes or I quickly get left waaaay behind!

Is that an epiphany, or what?

Could you elaborate on the difference? The only thing I'm aware of is that there are more string crossings on guitar, inviting a certain economy. E.g.,
in a figure like eighth-quarter-eighth on strings 3-2-3, say, I will definitely play the first two notes as downstrokes. I also do a lot of 3 and 4-string sweeps on guitar that I wouldn't do on the mandolin. Apart from that I'm pretty sure my pick approaches the strings much the same way on both instruments.

[Gelsenbury]

Then you need to work on your technique.

No doubt about that one at all! :)) It's only been 3 months since I started playing, and I had no experience whatsoever with fretted instruments before that. I'm well aware that my downstrokes are poor most of the time, never mind the upstrokes.



Proper pick strokes do not miss strings in the courses unless deliberately.

That's the ideal, sure. Pickloser's teacher seems to be saying that this isn't always achieved on the upstroke, and I can see why. I'm certain that technique has a lot to do with it, but anatomy and the angle at which most players seem to hold the mandolin also seem to favour the downstroke as far as hitting both strings is concerned.