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Carolie
Jul-09-2009, 11:05pm
I'd never heard the expression "noodling around" until I started playing mandolin. I found the definition on the slang dictionary online. It wasn't in my Oxford Unabridged.

I know what it means. Does anybody know how the expression got started and when?

Carolyn

I know. I need to spend more time practicing and less time wondering about such things.:)

man dough nollij
Jul-09-2009, 11:18pm
I'm not sure about the origin of the term. I posted this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48991&highlight=mindless+noodling) a while back about noodling, and some really cool discussion ensued. Some real heavy hitter players and instructors weighed in on the topic.

John Flynn
Jul-09-2009, 11:20pm
Here's what I know or was able to find out:

I first heard the term not related to music. It meant thinking something through, or "using your noodle." The American slang term "using your noodle" has been around since at least the 1930's with that meaning. "Noodle" in this usage is possibly an Americanization of the British word "noddle," which originally referred to the back of the head, specifically that bump on the back of the head, but it later got generalized in common usage to mean the whole head, or even the brain.

mrmando
Jul-10-2009, 1:14am
The Sicilian mandolin virtuoso Luigi Larghetto (b. 1849, d. 1910) never earned much notoriety outside his native Parma, but in his day was the best-known pizza-parlor and pasta-bar entertainer in the city. Renowned for his repertoire (he knew not only every aria, ballad, and popular tune composed in Italy during his lifetime, but those from France, Germany, and Austria as well) and his red silk costumes, Larghetto reportedly also put his great dexterity to use as a magician on occasion, doing intricate card and coin tricks--although in fact he was rarely seen without his mandolin. An imposing figure who weighed nearly 400 pounds, Larghetto often kept his instrument in his lap even while dining at the same establishments where he earned his living. One afternoon a fellow patron spotted Larghetto working his way through a large plate of angel hair pomodoro with his right hand while fingering his way through a new piece of sheet music with his left -- occasionally even using a fork tine as a plectrum. The patron asked, "Luigi, are you playing, or noodling?" -- and the rest, as they say, is history.

Jim Garber
Jul-10-2009, 8:11am
:)) Great, Martin!!

ApK
Jul-10-2009, 8:33am
I would hypothesize that it is related to both 'using your noodle' and to 'doodling' , which is equivalent in the drawing world.
I'd further guess that some musical type thought of what they were doing as a musical 'doodle,' rhymed it with 'noodle,' liked the brain connotation, and there you go....

ApK

re simmers
Jul-10-2009, 9:00am
Knute A. Ling was the original "Master of the Pan Flute" in the early 1500's. He was Martin Luther's chief musician. When Martin Luther was excommunicated by the Pope, so was Knute. Knute was forbidden to play his pan flute. However, Knute continued to play and was sentenced to prison. While in prison he built another instrument similar to the pan flute and played it quietly to pass the time. He was somehow able to keep it from the guards.
Knute A. Ling died in prison in 1529.

mandopete
Jul-10-2009, 9:50am
...yeah, then there's the infamous recording called The Pizza Tapes with begins with Jerry Garcia's famous words "Let's Noodle!".

re simmers
Jul-10-2009, 10:22am
Yes, it has evolved some over the years.

JEStanek
Jul-10-2009, 10:40am
First use on a mandolin was on a Merkel Spagghetti (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30361&highlight=merkel)model. John Hamlett is the expert repairman on this particular instruments requirements.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=22568&d=0

Jamie

Mike Scott
Jul-10-2009, 10:59am
It has been used outside of music for years. I don't know the origins, but I heard some finance guys talking about noodling around on some formulaic stuff back in the 80's. Probably the cause of the hard economic times we are in now. :))

ApK
Jul-10-2009, 11:22am
BTW:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noodling

Wonder what it's 'imitative' of, and what happend in 1937?

In answer to my own question:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=noodle

Apparent it refers to being imitative of a noodle.

GVD
Jul-10-2009, 11:45am
Go to a mandoln seminar some day and listen to some dolt noodle while a very important point is being made. You'll quickly come to the conclusion that the only possible origin for the word is one who has a narrow strip of dried dough where their brain should be.

Chris Wofford
Jul-10-2009, 11:52am
It also refers to reaching in a hole in a stream or lake to pull a catfish out with your bare hands. In Mississippi and Alabama I heard it called grappling. In Oklahoma (I think) they call it noodling. I always called it nuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LksuKTD8y0o

Jim MacDaniel
Jul-10-2009, 12:10pm
Here is another link from an etymological point of view: http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2009/02/noodling-around.html; but I prefer Martin's take on it. ;)

mandroid
Jul-10-2009, 1:24pm
It comes from .. the Pastafarians. ;)
A musical , in this context, moment when you have been touched
by the Noodly Appendages of .. the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

~[ http://www.venganza.org/ ]~


:popcorn:

journeybear
Jul-10-2009, 1:25pm
Knute A. Ling was the original "Master of the Pan Flute" in the early 1500's ...

It's also said that, as the original master of the pan flute, Knute A. Ling's passionate playing inspired certain other passions amongst his female fans, which according to some reports approached near-legendary numbers, thus earning him the sobriquet "The Don Juan of Deutschland." His reputation as a musician was nearly superseded by his notoriety as a lover, and this aspect of his character was immortalized in the term "canoodling."

re simmers
Jul-10-2009, 2:54pm
Journeybear has evidently read Knute's autobiography. Knute wrote it when he returned as Zamfir.
He was quite flattered that "Knute A. Ling" had become a common term for musicians in 400 years.

Gerard Dick
Jul-10-2009, 3:34pm
Yay journeybear. My mind was going to the same place. Funny that canoodling and noodling can both be described as messing around.

journeybear
Jul-10-2009, 3:50pm
Yay journeybear. My mind was going to the same place. Funny that canoodling and noodling can both be described as messing around.

Ha! It is to laugh, and so I do. HA!!! :))

Thankee, but really, a tip of the Hatlo Hat to re simmers, for starting this tangy tangent. ;)

Jim MacDaniel
Jul-10-2009, 4:36pm
Here is another link from an etymological point of view: http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2009/02/noodling-around.html; but I prefer Martin's take on it.)

Here is the corrected link (http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2009/02/noodling-around.html), a couple of interesting highlights from which follows:


The verb "noodle," meaning to fool around or waste time, has been in use since 1854, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The OED says the word comes from the noun "noodle," meaning "a stupid or silly person; a fool, an idiot," a word that was first used in print in 1720.
The latter descriptors in this first one, seem to support Mike's point about the noodling having gone on in Wall Street. ;)


This usage was first recorded in 1937. It was often used to describe jazz performances, but it was also used figuratively in other contexts.
Since its musical roots may be in Jazz, I guess that means when we "noodle", we aren't goofing off, we are improvising. :mandosmiley:

Phillip Tigue
Jul-11-2009, 12:10am
I thought Zamphir was master of the pan flute...and why would anyone choose to master the pan flute anyway? Especially when there are mandolins around.

Pete Counter
Jul-11-2009, 12:14am
Wow! to echo the thougts of the original poster, threads like this really make me feel guilty about wasting time on the net instead of practice. Think Ill go pick.

journeybear
Jul-11-2009, 12:44am
Oh, now, we're just noodling around with words. More'n one way to use yer noodle ... :))

TEE
Jul-11-2009, 12:54am
A brief history of noodling: Back in the days when jazz was pop music and swing bands roamed the earth, it was common for horn players to "noodle" around the melodies of popular favorites. Benny Goodman was an expert noodler. So was Louis Armstrong.

Then in the 1940s came be-bop, a music that demanded more technique. Veteran noodlers were ridiculed as moldy figs. It's been up and down ever since: Cool jazzers didn't noodle, but Dave Brubeck did; Miles Davis never noodled, but many who followed in his footsteps did. Jazz fusion was the big Ramen noodle, a yammering, highly technical cacophony of questionable nutritional value.
Rolling Stones


In other words it started as a Jazz term, from all accounts beginning in 1937.

re simmers
Jul-11-2009, 9:00am
Mr. Ling, Knute to his friends, would be so proud that his name would be used as a reference to musicians' caual play. I can picture a tear rolling down his cheek into his pan flute.

JEStanek
Jul-11-2009, 9:56am
That tear aid in vibrato...

Jamie

Marty Henrickson
Jul-11-2009, 10:15am
...yeah, then there's the infamous recording called The Pizza Tapes with begins with Jerry Garcia's famous words "Let's Noodle!".
That's close, but I feel obligated to correct:

Jerry: "Okay, shall we noodle at the beginning?"
Tony: "Yeah!"

Of course, some truly inspired noodling ensues for the next few minutes.;)

mandozilla
Jul-11-2009, 4:53pm
See what you started Carolyn! lol These mandolin people are so damn creative. lol :))

~o) :mandosmiley:

journeybear
Sep-24-2009, 10:52pm
It also refers to reaching in a hole in a stream or lake to pull a catfish out with your bare hands. In Mississippi and Alabama I heard it called grappling. In Oklahoma (I think) they call it noodling. I always called it nuts.

It just so happens that my local (Miami) PBS station is running a documentary on the practice tomorrow night, called "Okie Noodling." No info - here's a link to commentary (http://www.totalmomsense.net/2009/08/because-i-do-love-sportsokie-noodling.html). Keep an eye out in case it shows up near you.

qrDgv6gOhh8

Mandoviol
Sep-24-2009, 11:37pm
It also refers to reaching in a hole in a stream or lake to pull a catfish out with your bare hands. In Mississippi and Alabama I heard it called grappling. In Oklahoma (I think) they call it noodling. I always called it nuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LksuKTD8y0o

Yeah, PBS aired a documentary on it once called "Okie Noodling." Supposedly that's the only fishing technique allowed in Oklahoma...

Haha, I didn't look all the way down the page when I posted this. Strange how that works. :)

Well, perhaps it's because you get kind of loose when you noodle (noodles being loose and wiggly). So, if you're noodling, you're not really concentrating but just becoming loose and comfortable with the instrument.

journeybear
Sep-25-2009, 12:44am
Well, ya gotta watch out with these resurrected threads ... ;)

I'm looking forward to watching this documentary. I hope they explain the derivation of the term as it applies to hand fishing. Pretty much got it figured out for musical applications. :mandosmiley:

billkilpatrick
Sep-25-2009, 1:25am
"noodling" - [ˈn(y)oōtər-ing]:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/4335160.stm

Mandoist
Sep-25-2009, 5:36am
This thread is a prime example of this category, per Scott's definition:


General Mandolin Discussions:
This area is only for those discussions that don't fit into other predefined mandolin categories.

:popcorn:

journeybear
Sep-26-2009, 7:55am
Yes, indeed, as well as the adjective form, "noodly." :grin:

Or, in other words, my desire to inform those who might still care about noodling of the impending broadcast was a noodly concern. And the notion of whether it was worthwhile to start another thread concerning this noodly concern was itself a noodly concern. ;) In the end I decided it wasn't reason enough for a new thread, so I appended here. But hey - best to put the info out there and let folks decide whether to use it or ignore it. :mandosmiley:

terzinator
Sep-26-2009, 10:12am
...yeah, then there's the infamous recording called The Pizza Tapes with begins with Jerry Garcia's famous words "Let's Noodle!".
This was what I was gonna add! It's right before they play Summertime, and Jerry says, "Shall we noodle at the beginning?"

It is the pinnacle of all things that are great. :grin:

mandroid
Sep-26-2009, 12:39pm
Something to do while the Top Ramen is boiling..:confused:

:popcorn:

man dough nollij
Sep-27-2009, 8:55pm
...and the Flying Spaghetti Monster said, "Let there be noodling!"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

Mandoviol
Sep-27-2009, 9:05pm
...and the Flying Spaghetti Monster said, "Let there be noodling!"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg


Gotta ask, Lee: are you feeling the effects of pirate shortage down at the bottom of the world?

man dough nollij
Sep-27-2009, 9:26pm
RAmen to that! It's a serious problem.

Coffeecup
Sep-27-2009, 9:30pm
OK, you've all had your fun. I'm afraid that the true origin of the term "noodling", as applied to music, is much more mundane. Very few of us speak Italian so the terms on a music score need to be Anglicised for us. Unfortunately the instruction on a harmonica score, "al dente" (literally - sink your teeth into it), was misunderstood during the translation.

Canister
Sep-27-2009, 9:37pm
In my part of Missouri noodling means feeling around and see what you can find. It's hand fishing. Sometimes you get fish sometimes bit. It seems that would work for the mando too.

allenhopkins
Sep-28-2009, 12:37am
...yeah, then there's the infamous recording called The Pizza Tapes with begins with Jerry Garcia's famous words "Let's Noodle!".

David Grisman discussed the Pizza Tapes at an informal question-and-answer at Bernunzio's* (http://bernunzio.com/) last Friday. He said that they were never intended to be released, but that someone got hold of a recording he'd given Garcia and started making bootleg tapes. After the umpteenth time of being asked to autograph an one of these bootlegs, he decided to make a quality recording, using tapes and DAT's he'd kept. Besides, he liked the idea of the "pizza box" packaging format. So the result was an "authorized bootleg," sorta.

* Only three more days left in John B's big "in honor of Grisman" mandolin sale, by the way; NFI on my part (John's got enough of my buxx this year), but some decent markdowns...

AlanN
Sep-28-2009, 6:35am
...yeah, then there's the infamous recording called The Pizza Tapes with begins with Jerry Garcia's famous words "Let's Noodle!".

Some say Garcia made a living out of noodling :))

journeybear
Sep-28-2009, 8:45am
And they would be wrong. As much as Grateful Dead in general and Garcia in particular have been the butt of jokes and jibes regarding such matters, it's worthwhile to point out there's a difference between noodling - producing a rather aimless sequencing of notes - and freeform improvization, which is rare in rock but fairly common in jazz, and involves a mastery of one's instrument and its interrelation with others' in the ensemble. This can indeed sound like noodling if not done well or purposefully, and also if listeners are not paying close attention. Garcia's attempts to act as a conduit between his muse and the audience through this method depended on several techniques which most musicians would find daunting, not the least of which was staying out of the way and letting the music speak for itself. He, and they, could easily have taken a simpler, straighter, more standard path than they did - and the world would have been a less enlightened place, and we wouldn't still be talking about him 14 years after his death. I am grateful he took the road less travelled, even if it set himself up to be thought a fool, and the butt of endless cheap shots. What a glorious fool he turned out to be! :mandosmiley:

billkilpatrick
Sep-28-2009, 10:02am
Some say Garcia made a living out of noodling :))

... i think he canoodled quite a bit as well.

bflat
Sep-28-2009, 2:16pm
i think it's a derivative of "doodle" which is a way of occupying time when nothing serious can be accomplished, such as stuck in a boring lecture. i can see how someone might think it started with jazz...

jim_n_virginia
Sep-28-2009, 6:41pm
I read somewhere that "noodling" around on a instrument came the slang word "doodling" as in what someone does with squiggles and spirals when they are "doodling" around on a paper with a writing instrument just making abstract markings with no plan in mind.

Noodling is the same as DOodling except one is on paper and the other on an instrument.

Which brings me to my worst (or best?) PET PEEVE!! LOL!

I cannot STAND it when I am at a mandolin workshop and while the instructor is talking there ALWAYS seems to be at least ONE person (if not TWO) who noodles on their mandolin while he/she is talking! ARRRGGG! LOL! :mandosmiley:

journeybear
Sep-28-2009, 7:10pm
Oh, I'm sure he/she is just working out something related to what the instructor is saying, putting thought into action, turning conceptuality into physicality ... :mandosmiley:

Well, it could be like that! ;)

bflat
Sep-28-2009, 7:15pm
Jim - you took the words right out of my mouth...where in SE VA do you live? i have family up that way...glouchester

Coffeecup
Sep-29-2009, 3:26am
Which brings me to my worst (or best?) PET PEEVE!! LOL!

I cannot STAND it when I am at a mandolin workshop and while the instructor is talking there ALWAYS seems to be at least ONE person (if not TWO) who noodles on their mandolin while he/she is talking! ARRRGGG! LOL! :mandosmiley:

Right with you on that one Jim. Somebody always does that at the tune learning session I go to. It's doubley bad because I record the lesson to review at home.

journeybear
Sep-29-2009, 6:47am
Right with you on that one Jim. Somebody always does that at the tune learning session I go to. It's doubley bad because I record the lesson to review at home.

OMG! Save those tapes! You never know where the next Chris Thile is going to come from. It could be that one of those noodlers will turn out to be The Next Big Thing and you could have a recording for Before They Were Stars.

Or not ... :))

Coffeecup
Sep-29-2009, 4:45pm
Good point! I hadn't thought of that but maybe blackmail would be more lucrative? :grin:

billkilpatrick
Sep-29-2009, 5:00pm
I cannot STAND it when I am at a mandolin workshop and while the instructor is talking there ALWAYS seems to be at least ONE person (if not TWO) who noodles on their mandolin while he/she is talking! ARRRGGG! LOL! :mandosmiley:

guilty! ... i noodle around on my oud while - whomever - pontificates on how medieval music should be performed ... n-oud-ling!

man dough nollij
Sep-29-2009, 5:06pm
So... if I do it to improve my state of mind, is it moodling? How 'bout when Mike B (Doc Rock) does it in the field-- would that be croodling? If I do it for my fancy little French dog... I wonder. :confused:

billkilpatrick
Sep-29-2009, 5:22pm
If I do it for my fancy little French dog...

... it's called kinky, mate.

journeybear
Sep-29-2009, 7:37pm
Poodling? Sacre bleu!

If you were to do it in an oil field it would be crudling. I think Duke Ellington visited East St. Louis once or twice and did some toodling. And I believe some British gin drinkers have been known to do some boodling. And of course the Hatfields and McCoys have been feudling for generations ... :whistling: