I want a deeper tone out of my loar 600

[Chris Womack2]

I really like my 600 but I would like to get some of the brightness out of the A and E strings. I am playing with a Dunlop 207 pick and j74 strings. Should I go to J75 strings? A cumberland bridge? A better tail piece? or all of the above? Or do I need to just end up moving up the food chain as far as instruments are concerned?

[Mike Bunting]

You can only do so much with a low end mandolin. Buy a Collings or some such.

[guitarpath]

I don't consider The Loar 600 to be a low-end mandolin. Its an inexpensive (relatively speaking) mandolin with a lot of potential. The tone a Loar 600 can achieve with a good bridge and proper set-up is actually pretty impressive, even disregarding the price.

I would suggest the CA bridge and a different pick. Wegens, Blue Chip, or real ts each work well in my experience. Try experimenting with different pick thicknesses and shapes.

[Mike Bunting]

I don't consider The Loar 600 to be a low-end mandolin.
:) I do.

[baptist mando55]

You can only do so much with a low end mandolin. Buy a Collings or some such.

f you wont deeper and less bright a Collings is not the way to go. They are very bright at least all ive played and seen:mandosmiley:

[guitarpath]

:) I do.

If The Loar 600 doesn't meet your scary standards, that is fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

However, the OP has a sincere question about wanting a deeper tone out of his mandolin. This may involve technique, strings, picks, a different bridge, and a host of other factors. Suggesting that he has a low-end instrument and should "buy a Collings" is less than helpful to this member and could easily be construed as off-putting.

[baptist mando55]

Ghs silk and bronze strings and a Dawg2 pick will mellow things out a lot:mandosmiley:

[Big Joe]

The CA bridge and a pro setup to get everything your mandolin is capable of being is the first step. The J74's will probably be fine. Changing the tailpiece is an option, but will not likely do much for what you want. These are very good mandolins and once set up and optimized can be very, very good.

[Mike Bunting]

If The Loar 600 doesn't meet your scary standards, that is fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

However, the OP has a sincere question about wanting a deeper tone out of his mandolin. This may involve technique, strings, picks, a different bridge, and a host of other factors. Suggesting that he has a low-end instrument and should "buy a Collings" is less than helpful to this member and could easily be construed as off-putting.

He asked "do I need to just end up moving up the food chain as far as instruments are concerned?". When you look at the range of prices of new mandolins, from $200 or so upwards to $25,000, how can you suggest that a 5 or $600 instrument is not on the low end of the scale?

[Pete Summers]

You can make the tone "darker," meaning less bright ("deeper" would imply a lower pitch) by changing the strings, the pick or the entire instrument (and probably the bridge also).

I'd start with the pick. It's the least expensive and the easiest to change back and forth. The Dawg has been mentioned -- I find it makes a considerably darker sound by suppressing the partial overtones, a function of its thickness, I think. Sometimes, for some things, I like that. Other times I like a brighter sound, so I have several different picks.

I can't see how the tail piece would make much difference.
:)

[Kip Carter]

I accidentally discovered something that you might use to achieve some of what you want, depending on just what you mean by 'deep'.

My new Ibenez from the factory had a very thin piece of foam under the bridge. I initially played it with this in place before starting to make adjustments. After removing the shipping foam from under the bridge the tone was MUCH brighter. So, if you want to dampen the brightness a little try very thin pieces of energy absorbing material under the feet of your bridge and see if that gives you some of what you you're looking for.

This would be virtually cost free depending on what that material was.
Regards,
Kip...

[Lou Giordano]

I really like my 600 but I would like to get some of the brightness out of the A and E strings. I am playing with a Dunlop 207 pick and j74 strings. Should I go to J75 strings? A cumberland bridge? A better tail piece? or all of the above? Or do I need to just end up moving up the food chain as far as instruments are concerned?

Hey Chris. Here is my thread from about a year ago. Go to post #19 and play the before and after clips. It may help.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?69150-Meet-my-new-friend-Blackie-AKA-Boston-Blackie

YMMV.

[testore]

try JS74's. They are very woody sounding. The Sam Bush Monels are good for darkening tone too.

[Lou Giordano]

I want to add that I agree with the others. I would try changing the pick and strings first. The GHS A270s alone might get you what you want.

[Chris Womack2]

Thanks for all of the responses. Pete, I did mean darker and not deeper. I think I am going to try different strings, the bridge and a different pick to start with. Lou, it is pretty amazing the difference in those 2 clips. Thanks for directing me there.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Pete Summers - "I'd start with the pick.".That's a good idea Pete. A thicker pick such as a Golden Gate or Dawg pick,could take the edge off the treble & help bring out a more 'woody' tone on the lower strings. I use J74's & have used J75's (briefly),& the J75 A's & E's are not as 'steely bright',but are still pretty 'cutting' in tone,
Ivan

[guitarpath]

He asked "do I need to just end up moving up the food chain as far as instruments are concerned?". When you look at the range of prices of new mandolins, from $200 or so upwards to $25,000, how can you suggest that a 5 or $600 instrument is not on the low end of the scale?

Fair enough, Mike. However, it is very easy to confuse "inexpensive" with "low-end". Have you ever played a well set-up Loar 600 with CA bridge? They sound infinitely better than their sub $1000 price would indicate.

When judged using an open mind and disregarding the price or pre-conceived reputation, these are impressive mandolins (no "for-the-price" disclaimers warranted).

[Kbone]

Ghs silk and bronze strings and a Dawg2 pick will mellow things out a lot:mandosmiley:

yep, or ' silk & steel & a weber brekke bridge, also consider most new mandolins are on the bright/tight side at first.

[tr6drvr]

Start with pick changes. Thats cheapest. The try a variety of different strings. Then and only then move on to a better bridge, which is a 100-150 investment on a modest mando. Oh, pick further up the neck from the bridge-that's free!

[jimbob]

Many opinions on this subject for sure. I know ine thing , you can't completely change the way a mandolin sounds. You can make SLIGHT changes. I think monel strings work best to take out some brightness.

[Big Joe]

Jimbob... I beg to differ with you. We work on a LOT of mandolins, and we see significant changes in mandolins all the time. It is not easy for most people to make those changes themselves because of a lack of experience or knowledge, but an instrument in the hands of a good luthier can make a world of difference. While you can make some adjustments as an amateur, it is unlikely you will be able to get as much out of an instrument as a luthier who knows that product well.

The key is to know what you want from an instrument, then transfer that information to the luthier in an adequate manner. A good luthier will be able to tell you what you can and cannot get from a particular instrument. Each instrument is different, and there are a lot of ways to alter the output from nearly any mandolin no matter who it is built by. However, there are some limitations as well. In a post in the luthiers section a guy wants his Breedlove to sound like a Gibson. That will never happen, but it can be made to sound the best it can with the tone limits it has within it.

In this post, he is hoping for better performance from his LM600 Loar. It can certainly be improved with a good professional luthier who knows what to do to that mandolin. More depth can be added, but not by just changing strings or picks. They may help slightly, but are not the real answer to his issue. More depth can be added, but it will take a bit of work to get it there.

[resophil]

... The key is to know what you want from an instrument, then transfer that information to the luthier in an adequate manner.

This is without a doubt the key element in any such an undertaking!

Trouble is, there's no common framework for assigning vocabulary to sound... In this thread alone we have terms bandied about... brightness, tight, "edge off the treble", darkening, woody, etc., etc. Even the OP can't differentiate between deeper and darker...

So it seems to me that the primary problem is describing the problem...

[Willie Poole]

I agree with Big Joe....

A while back there was a post on here about how closing up the treble F sound hole would darken up a mandolin slightly, in fact there were some pictures of one picker that had closed his off with some tape and that is the way he played it on shows....I tried that on one mandolin and it did take away some of the shrillness or high treble sounds, I only covered a small portion of the lower F sound hole...It might be something to try and maybe that will be all that is needed to get you close to the sound that you are wanting...But a mandolin either has it or it don`t so don`t expect too much with out having a good luthier take a look at what you have and explain to him what you are looking for, he will be able to advise you on whether or not your mandolin can be made to sound like you want....

Good luck.....Willie

[Stephen Perry]

http://forum-network.org/lecture/solving-stradivarius-secret

The crossover / F hole wing stuff works on mandolins. Handy. Fast.

[Bob Scrutchfield]

http://forum-network.org/lecture/sol...ivarius-secret

The crossover / F hole wing stuff works on mandolins. Handy. Fast.

Steve, I listened to that whole video lecture and found it to be extremely interesting.
Thanks much.

[Bertram Henze]

+1 for trying a different pick first (in this case: a thicker pick). Cheapest experiments first.

Even cheaper experiment: pick further away from the bridge (there's lots of discussion here about that sweet spot).

[Stephen Perry]

Steve, I listened to that whole video lecture and found it to be extremely interesting.
Thanks much.

There's lots more, too. Part II of "Ears of the Angels" by Deena is rather interesting and provides a jumping off point. There's some guitar work by Blackshear with application. Some work on the plates of violins by Smith really has some instruments coming to live (some too much - sustain gets unwieldy to work with and I have to detune a bit). There's really a great deal that can be done.

But a decent instrument set up as well as feasible with a good bridge and appropriate strings is the foundation. No point in putting a nice coat of paint on rough work!

But do poke around the available information and ask for the non-available information politely. I learn new things all the time by looking at fine work on violins coming out of top shops. Violins come in that have obviously had the type of work I reference done on them, but the shops they're out of mention nothing about that in their public information. I presume there are other quietly done things. I look for those in the instruments.

If anyone wishes demonstrations of some of this stuff, by all means make an appointment. I'm busy, but can usually squeeze a little time in. I'm also doing more guitar tweaking. But an appointment is essential; I'm doing more travel and am also working in law again.

[Lou Giordano]

Cheapest experiments first.

Even cheaper experiment: pick further away from the bridge (there's lots of discussion here about that sweet spot).

Yep, My 600 sounded best picked right in the middle of the fret board extension.

[Markus]

Steve, I listened to that whole video lecture and found it to be extremely interesting.
Thanks much.

I agree, it's on my to-listen list. Thanks Steve.

I noticed that these folks are local to me and I'm unaware of their work, until now. Then again, I had no idea how many great mandolins were local to me until recently as well.

[Eddie Blevins]

Chris,
I played a Michael Kelley Elegante for the last 2.5 years. I tried a lot of strings to find that deeper sound. I finally landed on Elixer Mediums. They cost more, but the difference in tone is definate. I also use a Wegen pick which makes chopping much more woody.
Eddie

[greg_tsam]

...However, there are some limitations as well. In a post in the luthiers section a guy wants his Breedlove to sound like a Gibson. That will never happen, but it can be made to sound the best it can with the tone limits it has within it.

That was my post. :grin: I didn't expect it to sound like a Gibby. I was basically asking the same question as this OP except I wanted to know how craping the tone bars/underside of the top could might possibly help improve the midrange voicing.

[greg_tsam]

Also, I watched that video Stephen posted and thought that was great. Maybe that's what I was looking for.

[fiddler37]

The GHS Silk and Bronze string set is a good suggestion, but: I like the GHS Silk and Steel better. In the last two years I have tried a lot of strings, but the GHS S&S really suits me the best on my Kentucky 700 Mandolin.

[Markus]

The GHS Silk and Bronze string set is a good suggestion, but: I like the GHS Silk and Steel better. In the last two years I have tried a lot of strings, but the GHS S&S really suits me the best on my Kentucky 700 Mandolin.

I currently have Silk + Bronze on my Breedlove and it's colored the sound quite differently, especially as they wore in.

Did not like them, at all, the first week ... second week ok ... now I'm a month on them and don't want to have to change them for a while as I like, I like. I'm guessing I'll be trying the Silk and Steel on my next string order.

I would note the flatwound strings also colored the sound differently as well, tried the D'addario FlatTops [blech], Flatwound [better] and the JazzMando strings [very nice, but not perfect for what I do].

I would certainly try a few types, give them a few weeks to fully wear in ... see how it goes. Until you do any modifications, it's pretty cheap to try [though flatwounds get expensive].

[Rodney Riley]

"The thicker, green Axis produced a 'bottomy' tone, eliminating almost all the high. This resulted in a thick, almost dead strings sound." posted by mandopixie, post #19 of this thread http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?80003-Gravity-Picks&p=1000890#post1000890

Markus, I like the mellower sound of the flatwounds. Like the deeper non-tinny sounding mandos.

[Markus]

Markus, I like the mellower sound of the flatwounds. Like the deeper non-tinny sounding mandos.

Excepting my bluegrass playing situation where their more mellow impact leads me to overpick, I really enjoy them too.

I get the feeling that over time, I will gravitate more and more to that sound.