Full Fifths Tuning (CGDAEB) for guitar

  1. Explorer
    Explorer
    What started out for me as an inexpensive way to get the sound of a five-course mandolin/mandola has now turned into something larger for me.

    http://octave4plus.com/

    Now that I've managed to tune my guitar to full fifths, with a high B4, I'm finding new discoveries on the fretboard every day. Thank you, Garry Goodman!

    Even though I had hoped that this experiment would quench my MAS, I just wound up ordering an eight-string 28" scale length guitar, so I can have an electric guitar upon which to experiment with touchstyle, regular plectrum use and eBow in this tuning. Having an instrument which will play from a low Ab0 up to a high A6 is just too much of a temptation to pass up.... *laugh*

    (I wonder what will happen if I decide to take lessons from a mandolin teacher, and show up with any of these instruments? *laugh*)

    I'll be curious as to who else will try this, and what their results turn out to be. (It seems a given that John M. and Groveland will be among the first, of course, but I don't want to assume.... *laugh*)
  2. Penn
    Penn
    Hey guys this is such a great idea! Can a typical guitar technician do a good job of setting up a guitar in this tuning?? Does anyone know if travel guitars, such as the Taylor Baby, can be set up in this fashion?
  3. Penn
    Penn
    Is this group still active, or are these just stupid questions?
  4. Explorer
    Explorer
    Penn, sorry about not replying earlier. Real life gets in the way, and I'm not quite sure of the difference in function between a discussion group and the threaded approach of the forums. Possibly the discussion group is all to be related to the core concept of the group, so that ideas aren't lost in a larger forum.

    As far as set-up goes, I basically did a set-up for light strings, and then did the string substitutions. I went into more detail in this thread...

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=50620

    ...including the idea of using a smaller guitar as the basis for the mandoguitar. Since I want to be able to play the instrument as a bouzouki / octave mandolin / mandocello, I opted not to get a Papoose or a Breedlove Atlas C25 travel guitar... although I might consider it if I ever want a travel-sized instrument.

    The Baby Taylor is tuned as a normal guitar, but it lacks bass range due to its small body, again defeating the idea of having the range of at least four instruments in one. However, I am thinking of getting a short-scale alto-tuned 12-string (A2-A4), to convert into a bare-bones six-course mandolin / mandola / cittern. Given the current prices for even a 10-course mandolin/mandola, this route is extremely cost-effective. However, a 3/4 size guitar will still have a 18+" scale length, which is a bit more than a mandolin.

    With any 12-string, of course, the string slots at the nut would have to be widened to put on unison strings (12-string guitars have octave stringing on the bottom four courses). I was careful to only use guitars with enough room in the nut to widen the string slots and still maintain the courses apart from each other. Even then, I handed the work off to the best guitar tech in the area. I could afford the specialised nut files, and could probably do the job, but I don't mind springing for someone's expertise when I'm having a full set-up done.

    My biggest piece of advice is to give the tech all the strings except the top B4; put in duplicates of whatever you'll have for the E4, and have the top course tuned to an additional E4 (C2 - G2 - D3 - A3 - E4 - E4). You can put the B4 string(s) on once you get back the instrument. I take an extremely long time to tune up the high B4, far exceeding the instructions, because I figure my patience will pay off in the long run with not breaking a $5 string through rushing. By having the tech work with less expensive strings of the same tension as the B4 string, I don't have to worry about such breakages.

    Penn (and others), I'll be interested to read of your results in the full-fifths six-string conversion thread. Nothing is more inspiring than to read of where others have gone, and you might be the one to convince someone else to leave the beaten path.

    ----

    I am still torn as to what to call this instrument. Thanks to the history of the Octofone, "Quadrafone" sounds cool, but might not convey the idea very well. "Guitarlin" is already used by Danelectro for their 31-fret longhorn electric guitar, and "mandoguitar" somehow doesn't do it for me. Maybe I'll cop out and just call it a baliset, since it can be played with a pick, and as I'm already planning on moving towards tapstyle as well on my eight-string electric with full-fifths tuning....

    Cheers!
  5. Penn
    Penn
    Wow T.J. - thanks for you insightful post - I'm definitely looking forward to the CGDAEB world, I'll be looking forward to more posts from you and the rest of the group.
  6. groveland
    groveland
    Penn - Well, well, well... There are posts going on here! I'll have to check back more often.

    T.J. - You're going to have to share some tapping video/audio with us. It's a great technique and sound (thinking Andy McKee here), and far enough outside the realm of what I do that it usually astonishes me. Bring it on!

    Also, your slow and easy tuning advice on that B concerns me - How tight can it be? I have not yet ordered mine...
  7. Explorer
    Explorer
    I'm a cautious person, so I normally take things really slow when there's a chance of breaking a string. This probably comes from the fact that my main instrument has 47 double-strung unison course, and many of them are at 35 lbs. of pull. (I'm not kidding; the instrument has lots of rock maple braces.)

    The normal tuning instructions for the O4+ strings probably take about 20 minutes to get a B4 up to pitch, and then cautions against string bends for the first 24 hours. There's also a caution about playing it really hard until you're accustomed to the strings, which is fair enough. I've known folks who break regular strings during use because they have no sense of subtlety; I can only imagine how quickly they would break these strings, through not wanting to learn some control until they knew what the string was capable of.

    On the plus side, I foolishly left my guitar out recently when playing out, and some meathead picked it up. He complained that the strings kept bending because I didn't have it strung heavily enough (his action was high enough to grate cheese on *laugh*). He didn't manage to break any strings, and put the instrument down when I told him he'd have to pay to replace the top string if it broke for ten bucks. (Just so you know what kind of guy this was, he also started arguing that he wasn't going to pay for breaking the strings on someone else's instrument, even though he didn't put down that other person's instrument at the first request. Isn't self entitlement grand? *laugh*) Anyway, even this fellow didn't break the strings, so they're probably more resilient than my cautious nature can imagine.

    And, by contrast with my main instrument, the tension at 25.5" for B4 is only 13.1 lbs. for the .006, 17.8 for .007, and 23.3 for .008.
  8. groveland
    groveland
    Despite the conditions that the minimum order is 5 strings, and 'check for availability' on the 'special order' B strings, I did order a single B. The shipping on the one string is $10.00... $15.75 total. We'll see what happens.
  9. Explorer
    Explorer
    And, in contrast, I'm placing an order for five .006 string, and four .007 strings. The .006 strings are for octave strung instruments, and the .007 strings are for the six-string guitars. Since I know I'll be using them, the shipping cost is easily spread out.

    I'm trying to figure out, in spite of the equal tension to what I've been using for a normal pitched string, if the lack of string density means that the drive of the thinner strings means the sound volume will be reduced. I've never thought about that before, thinking purely that tension drives the soundboard on an acoustic instrument. If one looks at most string sets, the densest, lowest strings have string tension much lower than the higher strings of the same sort (wound/unwound). Although I've been looking into using progressively tensioned strings, and they feel great under the fingers, I want to know if one paradigm or another is actually correct.

    Just a few thoughts!
  10. groveland
    groveland
    My order of one B-493.88Hz .006 string arrived.

    I was really hoping that I could provide a rave review. I would have settled for an okay review. Really, I had high hopes, and I don't like giving negative reports.

    I only ordered one, as I said before, because they are pricey, and for the price plus shipping I could assemble two whole sets at GC. The vendor sent two strings, one dubbed as a 'test' string.

    The target is a Gibson ES335 with a Tune-a-matic bridge, steel saddles, stop tailpiece, the usual nut, and Grovers. I read all the directions carefully.

    The string is not much more than a strand of my daughter's hair. Lighting is important when handling it, as you really have to watch what's going on. A slight kink in the string would destroy it. There is a ball end molded onto the string similar to Fender Bullets.

    The channel through the tailpiece is clear, no burrs. The bridge saddles are steel. I very slowly and very carefully fed the string through the tailpiece, unravelling the coils as I went, feeding the strand through the tuner post with my right hand, while gently guiding the length of it with my left. I think it would be near to impossible to apply a lighter touch than I used here.

    Now I've been dealing with all kinds of strings over the last 4 decades. I even used .007 Slinkies back in the day. I have never seen anything like this.

    The friction of my left hand guiding the string actually produced adequate pressure on the ball end to pop the string right out of the ball, in the tailpiece. I wasn't even sure it really happened - There wasn't really any resistance. Oh well, that was the test string, and I could try again - But how much more careful can a human being be? And if it does actually make it into the tuning post without disintegrating, can it possibly withstand a turn or two of the tuning key? I can't imagine it.

    So I went through the process again, only this time even more slowly and carefully if that's possible. I mean, I was just consciously going through the motions more slowly and carefully, but I don't think there was any real change to pressures on the string at these levels... And you guessed it - pop. Same as before. No tension on the string, so I couldn't really feel a release when it disengaged from the ball - More like "fell out of the ball".

    So T.J., my hat's off to you. If I did finally manage to get it strung up, and then up to pitch (how is that even possible?!) I would be afraid to so much as touch it!

    That is my experience.

    Now, it may be only fair to contact the vendor and report the problem, which I may do. On the other hand, based on this experience, I'm not thinking this string is anywhere near ready for primetime. Could I trust a replacement, say, on a gig?

    Let me know how you fare and I'll live vicariously - I don't have the resources to perform more experiments at this time. For now, it's back to CGDAEG for me!

    (Oh, and we've prepared a little reception for you out back... )
  11. Explorer
    Explorer
    You should definitely contact them. As I've used quite a few strings at this point, and haven't had the problem of the string coming loose from the ball end, it would appear that something went wrong when the strings were made.

    And this was without tension on the string, other than some tension from your hand? The one string I popped broke somewhere other than at the ball.

    The strangest thing I can imagine causing this would be the inside of your stop tailpiece either having some kind of strange shape that would cause the two-piece ball to deform, or there being something cutting into the string. (I consider the latter to be unlikely, because your posts indicate that you are precise enough to have noticed that little bit of wire sticking out of the ball.) If there were enough pressure for a deformation, I can imagine there being a problem, but not under the tension of just having a hand adding a bit of pressure, without an audible note.

    As the two bridge types I have the strings on are a pinned bridge and an Ovation string-through bridge, both wood, I don't have any experience on using them on a stop tailpiece. However, the lack of tension makes me feel this is a string manufacturing problem.

    I'm feeling pretty confident about you getting a good result with the strings, actually; I look forward to your results when they send out the replacements.

    Conversely, I also would like to hear if they say, tough!, although I doubt that's going to happen. They definitely want the product to work. I would say you might want to give them a chance to make it right.

    Reception, you say? Behind the casino? You shouldn't have!

    *laugh*
  12. groveland
    groveland
    Very accomodating... Couldn't ask for more.

    I contacted the folks, and they are sending out 3 more strings, and I'm sending back the defective ones. (They offered to pay the postage on the return, too.)

    This time they're not taking any chances! They actually tuned one of the 3 to pitch so I can try that out first. If it pops out of the ball, then they want to get to the bottom of why a standard Gibson stop tailpiece would cause this phenomenon.

    If it does happen again, I am going to install a regular ball on the broken string and see if I have better results.

    More to come.
  13. Explorer
    Explorer
    How do you plan on installing a ball on that thing? I can't put a good loop in a .006 string, and I do looped string for another instrument all the time. The O4+ ball is, if I understand correctly, a two-piece ball which presses together, and likely has some sort of grip mechanism within.

    And, was my confidence in them rewarded? I knew they'd come through.

    However, I am less than impressed by the fact that the only thing I found out back were dumpsters. I was the only one at the party! Some reception....
  14. groveland
    groveland
    They came through big time.

    I got the replacement string(s) today. I put the first on, NO PROBLEM. I'm letting it stretch for an hour, but it's up there at a B4, as promised.

    Now I normally use a Big Stubby on guitar, but I might have to think twice about that. I'll start out with Dunlop .88mm nylons and see what happens. This is pretty exhilarating... Fifths across the board!
  15. groveland
    groveland
    Playing gingerly, but this is great! Plus, the string produces some unique resonances on the 335. Strong tone. Lots and lots of fun.

    This is the future, if it holds up.
  16. Explorer
    Explorer
    Groveland, I'm so glad it held up. I'd personally think that the ball wasn't pressed together enough, as I couldn't imagine a deformation sufficient to have a well-pressed ball lose its grip.

    It took me a while to gain confidence in the strings. I played them very gingerly at first, but am now pretty comfortable with them. Let's see... .88mm Tortex. I was completely paranoid at first that I'd wind up popping the string, with the loose end then plunging into my eye. Ouch! *laugh* I don't know, however, how these strings would fare with someone whose instrument top is almost worn through by someone's pick use. That was Goodman's fear at first when I wrote him about using the strings on acoustic, that I'd be one of those guys who put on heavy strings and treat an instrument as a basher's delight. *laugh*

    Ah, Groveland. You'll soon discover the pleasures of being able to use four- and five-course chords which transport everywhere, being able to apply consistent FFcP patterns all over the neck, and a host of other benefits I can't even quantify yet.

    I'm sure you won't reply soon, as you'll be off in Discoveryland for a while....

    Cheers!
  17. groveland
    groveland
    Garry says "The ones you have now were set for a 'through the body' tension." So apparently we found what works for the Gibson 335 stop tailpiece. Something to keep in mind when purchasing, folks.

    Still playing, and still holding up.
  18. Explorer
    Explorer
    Groveland, how go your adventures in FFT land?

    And, given how easy a retuning can be, has anyone else now taken the FFT plunge, whether on 6- or 12-string?

    I'm now on a Pink Floyd kick, getting the hang of remapping old stuff, and I have the Rolling Stones waiting in the queue. I also figure now is the time to really learn the Bach suites for unaccompanied cello, and, as far as I'm able, the partitas and sonatas for unaccompanied violin.

    Then I might start to consider myself as gaining competence at this tuning.

    *laugh*
  19. groveland
    groveland
    Hey! Things are great! I'm always remapping too.

    Interesting about the Bach - So much great and flexible material for fifths tuning! I'm a fan.

    Before you introduced me to the B4, I had been planning an ES335 version of Bach's Cello Suite 2, Courante. I did a rough sketch of cittern improv with a piano accompaniment, hoping my daughter would take the bait and do the piano part. Argh. She wasn't interested, so I threw it out on YouTube and that was that. But with the B4, I figured I could do a trio thing, FFT guitar, fender bass and drums. Of course, that meant I do the bass and play/program the percussion. That much done, I'm struggling to find a tone for the 335 down in that cello range that doesn't trip over the bass too much.*

    Bach's changes are GREAT for soloing! Like this Courante gives so much opportunity for melodic and harmonic minors, and all the II-V's. Lots of fun.

    That's what I've been doing lately. Trying to own FFT.

    * Plus, goaded on by Yo Yo Ma's breakneck speed, I think I may have pushed it a wee bit too fast - I feel like I'm chasing a train right now...
  20. PhilGE
    PhilGE
    Just got a message from the folks at Octave4plus when inquiring about the 6 5ths set C2 to B4:

    "If you want to order a set,I will have our webmaster add a code for this set on the order page."

    Sounds good to me. I'm not quite ready to order, but will make the request. I wanted folks to know so there's a "ready to order" set. I'll be ordering with black thread wrap on the ball ends.

    -Phil
  21. Explorer
    Explorer
    Interesting. I have a 25.5" scale length hardtail eight-string on the way, which will be full fifths from Bb0 to B4. I'll likely get a full set from O4+, but before I do, I'll be doing some experimentation on gauges to see what kind of tension feels right on it.

    I have heard good things about the tone of the O4+ matched sets on sevenstring.org. (Yes, it's mostly metal, but the emphasis is on more than 6 strings, and there's a few people looking at alternate tunings like FFT). Many of the SS.org users talk about the bad tone on 25.5" instruments, but it's hard to know what their point of reference is. Are they shredders? Are they looking for crunchy djenting? I figure I have to find out what the tone and tension are like on my own, and zero in on the perfect string set for me.

    Incidentally, it's pretty cool to have put together all the bulk string sets for instant use (sealed with dessicant within the envelopes). Having custom string sets for my own tuning needs is so strange, and I wonder why I never did this before.

    Then I realise I never needed a PB-wound .018 before, and that a normal string set was fine for my needs before all the FFT nonsense. Now I just have to be paranoid of running low on the custom sets, because there's no music store to run to if I run out.

    ----

    Groveland, how goes it with you?

    I've been getting into the 12-string a lot. It's a completely different animal from the single-strung guitars, and I think I need to listen to some old prog rock and Gerald Trimble, and maybe some CSNY or Tool, to start to get to what I'm trying to express. It's strange, to have a need and not know how to say it, to have a destination to which I can't see a path.

    I don't want to noodle, as that will merely get me to what is easy and falls under the fingers. I need to do some thinking and evaluation. I probably need to start exploring chord progressions again, to see which ones invoke emotions I want to use, and then see how to evoke them in the way that the Bach pieces manage to say so much without needing to fill every space....

    ----

    Okay, that was a lengthy post. I'm feeling a bit frustrated, and scale woodshedding just seems like so much busy work right now. It's time to dig out a Rikky Rooksby book, I imagine.
  22. PhilGE
    PhilGE
    My "Guittern" will soon be complete! Jim and I were wondering about recommendations of strings/weights/gauges for this 25.5" scale acoustic instrument tuned CGDAE. Not sure if the Octave4plus strings would be appropriate as they're spec'd for electric guitar.

    Thanks in advance,
    -Phil
  23. Explorer
    Explorer
    The Octave 4 Plus strings are good for either a really high plain string, or if you want to either match tone or want a bass-end electric string which isn't standard. Usually acoustic instruments use brass, bronze or phosphor bronze for the windings of the bass strings.

    Here's some theoretical string sets. I normally order my bulk strings from http://juststrings.com, but you'll probably have to do some digging to get the larger phosphor bronze strings I list. These string gauges are just the result of calculation, and I don't know if all string gauges are manufactured.

    I'd go with the extra light strings. If the instrument is well set up, you shouldn't have a problem with rattling and such. However, I do list all the sets, in case you want to go further.

    All sets are using D'Addario tensions as normal. If you want to read the set tensions, do a search on D'Addario for a given type (Extra Light, Light, etc.) to see how the normal guitar set gauges go. This could prove helpful, if you already know what kind of guitar string gauges you prefer.

    Here are the string sets for E4 - A3 - D3 - G2 - C2

    Extra light:
    .010 plain steel
    .016 plain steel
    .030 PB wound
    .042 PB wound
    .053 PB wound

    Light:
    .012 plain steel
    .018 plain steel
    .032 PB wound
    .047 PB wound
    .066 PB wound

    Medium:
    .013 plain steel
    .019 plain steel
    .035 PB wound
    .052 PB wound
    .072 PB wound

    Heavy:
    .014 plain steel
    .020 plain steel
    .039 PB wound
    .056 PB wound
    .074 PB wound

    I went with plain strings for your A3, but on my own fifth-tuned guitars with the 25.5" scale length, I use the extra-light stringing, and have a .018 PB wound for the A3. I take some time to get the strings on the vulnerable courses (the high B4 not on your instrument, and the wound A3) up to tension, giving the A3 strings at least two minutes resting time for each 10 cents going from above G3 to G#3, and then 5 minutes resting time for each 5 or 10 cents between G#3 and A3. This means, when restringing, I watch a movie or something, so the time flies. As the high B4 are also being tuned at the same time, there is overlap between which string is coming up to tension, so there isn't as much sitting around.

    I know, I take longer than I might have to, but by doing it this way, I never break strings unless I'm impatient with bringing the vulnerable ones up to tension.
  24. PhilGE
    PhilGE
    Thanks, TJ. This will help for the acoustic "guittern." The Epiphone will get the set from Octave4plus. Good to know about bringing such light strings up to pitch...
  25. PhilGE
    PhilGE
    Epiphone arrived yesterday. Wow... I am NOT used to the light touch of electrics. Fun to goof around with it, but can really tell I know next to nothing about playing in guitar tuning.

    Ordered a full set of strings in fifths from Octave4plus. Really hope I take a liking to this.
  26. Explorer
    Explorer
    Electrics *are* really lightly strung, aren't they? *laugh* My full-fifths eight-strings sometimes make it hard to go back to the 12-string mandophone. If the pickups were just a bit less electric-sounding, or if I were to put either Graphtec piezo saddles on either electric, or some Q-Tuner passive pickups into the FM-408, I can imagine taking one out instead of one of the acoustics.

    As always, of course, I would take that acoustic-sounding signal and run it through the Korg PX4A Pandora effects unit. I have a tone of mando-family-sounding patches on it, and, used judiciously with a concealed small clean battery-powered amp, it can sound like the processed sound is coming from the raw instrument.

    ----

    I normally buy bulk strings for the electric eight-strings, since it's less expensive. The only ones which have no bulk option are the O4+ strings, but even including those, an eight-string full-fifths set runs about $15US a set. Most of that cost comes from the O4+ at the top end, and the Ernie Ball .090 baritone bass string for the bottom Ab0/Bb0 (it has a guitar-sized ball end). I should check out Garry's pricing for the larger O4+ strings. If it's competitive with the strings I get now, or even just slightly more expensive but consistent, then it would be worth getting a matched set.

    Let me know what you think of the O4+ full matched set....
  27. groveland
    groveland
    Reporting in... On 6/24/2009 I put that B string on my 335. I played daily for 1 to 3 hours, practice time. The B string broke this morning, 9/8/2009. A total of 77 days, approximately 150 hours, probably more.

    I started using it more heavily as I gained confidence with it. I am big on bends, but I rarely did any, and when I did it was only a half step. Still, that's great performance.
  28. PhilGE
    PhilGE
    Hmm... managed to have my B, E, and A all break as I was restringing with the just delivered set on Monday. Maybe trying to do too much at one time. The stock strings on the Epiphone have not been a problem, even after re-stringing them. Left a message for the O4+ folks. Meanwhile, I'm having some fun trying to figure out what to do with this thing. Not used to electrics at all - feels like some kind of parallel universe where things seem the same, but...
  29. groveland
    groveland
    Wow, Phil. That's amazing. Mine was stable all that time, and finally broke at the bridge saddle. (Gibson tune-a-matic) I just strung up another, and it feels like it'll go another 150 hours.

    Octave4plus will most likely make good... I assume you followed directions closely. Did they break at the ball, or elsewhere?

    As for rock/jazz/blues electric guitar technique, it's as specific to the instrument as, say, bluegrass mandolin technique is to the mando. You can usually ID a native acoustic guitar player trying to get around on an electric pretty easily. To me, the dead giveaway is usually the lack of that signature strong, confident, whole-step bend that accurately nails the pitch, held up there with a good strong and consistent vibrato. (Rock and blues, various fusion.) The next giveaway is often an unpleasing flatpick attack overwhelming the lighter gauge strings. Another might be picking every note and never leveraging pull-offs, hammer-ons, etc.

    I would recommend getting a teacher for some pointers on these three techniques, and you'd probably go really far, but you will likely confuse a lot of folks with your tuning!

    A last thought - Regular old guitar strings in the required guages, plus the high B from Octave4plus, makes sense, too.
  30. PhilGE
    PhilGE
    Just getting ready to send the broken strings back to O4+. They're making good - and I really didn't doubt they would. I have a super fat .72 on the C right now and may need to modify the nut a bit as the string seems to be sitting high. Getting some professional eyes on it will be helpful. Getting some professional eyes on my technique is certainly called for. Thanks for the support. (btw, wish your software content was Mac compatible).
  31. groveland
    groveland
    Back and forth and back and forth. I have mixed feelings about this.

    Tuned up the new B last night, let it settle in overnight. Just now, picked up the 335 and about 3 minutes into noodle warmups - Pop! The B broke right at the ball.

    I will let you all draw your own conclusions.
  32. Explorer
    Explorer
    You guys have me dreading when I will eventually get a run of strings which break. *laugh* You're also freaking me out with the thought that my electrics will start suffering from all kinds of issues. I'm glad that mine are string-through-body bridges.

    I do have the instruments set up for me, and she understands what my plans are for the instruments, and the need to have a smooth string path. I'm to the point where I would rather pay someone for their experience than buy the tools and then do a job not quite as good as it could be.

    Wow, Phil, is a full set from O4+ expensive? I buy all the strings I can in bulk, and then the few I can't, I get from O4+....
  33. PhilGE
    PhilGE
    W/shipping, it ran around $33.00. So, yeah, not cheap. He's fine tuning the details on the set right now.
  34. groveland
    groveland
    No activity here in a while, so I'll fabricate a reason to post: It's been exactly a month, that last B string is still hanging on, and it's seen a lot of miles. Here is how it was last night: Bach's Cello Suite 2, Courante (again!) on an FFT ES335, Fender Deluxe bass; and drums.
    When you get a good one (string), it works.
  35. PhilGE
    PhilGE
    Sounds great! Nice work.
  36. groveland
    groveland
    Thanks, Phil.

    In standard tuning I used to enjoy a decent second-nature reflexive response, and a reasonable recovery time after clams.

    That has been replaced by this notably increased risk of train wrecks followed by a protracted, obvious, and painful-to-witness search for "Where was I, now?"

  37. John McGann
    John McGann
    Late to the party (as usual) but that clip sounds great, Craig- very nice improv in there too!
  38. "Umm, fish?"
    "Umm, fish?"
    Hey all! I've been using this tuning for a while now on a short-scale (22.5") acoustic 12 string. The short scale really makes a difference on the high B. I can get a normal guitar string (.008) up there with no problems. The low C string, however, is a problem. With the short scale, the C is way too floppy. I've had a conversation with octave4plus and they can custom some C strings for me that they claim will be designed to be at a normal tension when tuned to C. We'll see. If so, I'm never retuning this sucker. I love this tuning. So much so that I'm also stringing up a short scale electric 6 string for fun. And the new entry at the top of my wish list is now a Gibson ES 140.
  39. groveland
    groveland
    Yay. We've come back to life here, after 2 years.

    I was unfamiliar with the ES 140. That looks ideal for the job, doesn't it?

    I have stayed with NST for the last 2 years because of the aforementioned technical difficulties. There are some nice chromatics you can leverage in that interval at the top. It's really only 83.3333335% cool, though.
  40. "Umm, fish?"
    "Umm, fish?"
    Plus, for an old Gibson it's not horrifically expensive (since no one wants a "kid's" guitar).

    I finally got the Epiphone Les Paul Express (22" scale length) yesterday and got it restrung, adjusted the action, and got most of the intonation (that dratted C string) taken care of last night. I can't get the bridge back quite far enough to get the C string (just a normal .042) completely in tune. I'm hoping that once I get the O4+ strings they will solve the issue. It's not horrible, but I can hear it and any sloppiness on my part in pressing the string just sends it farther sharp. Not that I would ever play sloppily.

    It's a tiny little guitar, but lots of fun. I've always liked that warm Gibson sound.
  41. warmwhisky
    warmwhisky
    This is an interesting thread for me. I have currently been working on a database for tunings and this tuning in particular got my attention. I had no idea how high the top e string had to go until I mapped all of the guitar tunings to a visual display which enables you to visualise (in comparison to EADGBE) where each string needs to be.

    Another tuning which got my attention is ACDEGA. It's similar to CGDAEB on the guitar but the opposite way round; the low strings need to be tuned up and the high ones down. Does anyone use this on the mandolin? It's definitely another tuning which will need custom strings to achieve. Lovely sound though!
  42. "Umm, fish?"
    "Umm, fish?"
    I increased the diameter of my C and G strings on my short-scale instruments. That took care of the intonation and floppiness problems that I was experiencing. So now I'm just happy, with no custom strings at all.
  43. warmwhisky
    warmwhisky
    I've just created a chord chart for CGDAEB. 28 chords divided into Maj, 7, Minor and Minor 7. A through to G.

    I created a chord chart for BDDDDD also which looks interesting but rather out of bounds, fingers wise. Though the chords from CGDAEB look within reach. I dont actually use this tuning and never have so I have not had a chance to try out the chords. I wonder if anyone would care to try? It can be found here http://www.gtdb.org/tuner/cgdaeb/#Guitar_Chords

    Due to the nature of alternate tunings, I have included 7 frets in each chord and most importantly I have included markers on every fret where the chord notes hit. This may be confusing to start with, but once one gets the hang of picking out within-reach chord shapes from the chord chart one can find some interesting and maybe never before seen or heard of chords??
  44. groveland
    groveland
    Boy, that represented a lot of work!

    You may actually find a simpler way to express it. That's the beauty of fifths - Symmetry, simplicity, predictability.

    [I played Iris (GooGoo Dolls) on a gig over the summer, supposedly BDDDDD. That would have required a restringing so I found good alternatives with common gauges. But now we're way off topic... Back to CGDAEB.]
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