That was so much fun playing with Bernie, I decided to do one along with Kyle on his bouzouki!
Not fast -- smoke and mirrors. I botched the improv in the third pass but my time was limited. I was waiting for my beloved bride to complete the beautification process for church.
Very cool all the demos Barbara! This is turning out to be a very useful string for improving your playing -- so much good information flowing while still having ball -- can't beat that. Mike, very nice -- and clean. As to the bpm -- yes it is confusing the program I used to play chords for me calls it 120 bpm -- then again the song is in 6/8 time (as are all jigs?) not sure about that. So that changes how fast you are playing a given bpm - yes? On and those Irish dancers -- that was a reel so I think you would expect it to be little faster than a jig perhaps.
I really liked that mandolin and bouzouki duet! Having this much fun is probably illegal so let's enjoy until we are caught.
Jigs are 6/8, slip jigs are 9/8, and slides (which sound like jigs, kinda) are 12/8! I employ DUD DUD on all....
Mike, when I first read what you wrote, I thought you said you made that video while you were waiting for your bride, for church, as in GETING MARRIED (which is on my brain, as my daughter is getting married in just a couple of weeks!)... and I though... woah! videoing for mandolin cafe while getting ready to say "I DO"... but then, upon re-reading it, I hope you were just getting ready to go to church-church... not wedding-church!
Nice work Mike, and thanks Barbara and Jill for the explanations about pick direction. This is the first time I've tried to pick a jig, so I'm just trying to understand the thinking behind the techniques.
If I were waiting for my wedding to start, I'd still be sitting on the couch, playing the mandolin. There would be a drink nearby.
Great submissions all! Here's mine... http://vimeo.com/5664413 Chris
Nice Jam session Barb!! Next time you come to Smiths Falls Ontario, look me up... hahaha
Here is a comment on picking Swallowtail Jig -- I think he is one of Barbara's students --- a la D U D D picking pattern Its a nice example of where one might use different patterns and on just the right tune too.
Hmm, I personally wouldn't agree with his rational for using DUD DUD on the first half of the A part and then switching to DUDUDUD for the end of the A part. I'd also wager if he was playing at a session using that kind of picking pattern that he might well find himself out of sync with the other players when he switched to that picking pattern. I guess folks can do just about whatever they want but in my opinion the difference between well played trad playing vs. so-so trad playing is the all important feel imparted in the tunes. Remember that a jig is a dance after all - so if your man in the clip is switching picking pattern and therefore emphasis halfway thru the A part surely that is going to effect the dancers ability (or not) to keep in time with the tune.
Do people usually improvise much in trad irish music? (I hope that question isn't another can of worms).
Yeah I was wondering about switching patterns in the middle of the tune -- I think that's a good point you make. Looking back I see Barbara's point was to use DUD DUD for the entire jig.
OS: The question does open a can of worms, but that's not your fault. Hardcore ITRAD is unison playing (unless you're playing chords). People will vary the tunes, but generally in very minor ways. There's no "soloing." At a session (an informal gathering in a pub or home to play tunes), generally you play unison or as close as everybody can get to it or people start giving you the eye. If they're playing Swallowtail and you don't know it, you sit quietly and wait for something to come along you know. Depending on your way of looking at things, this is either an important way to protect the tradition or snobbishness. I've been playing a lot of Irish (in a band, in sessions, in my kitchen) for the past 5-10 years. I find myself veering off that road and into bluegrass. A lot of the tunes are the same, but instead of everybody playing Red Haired Boy five times in unison, everybody plays it together the first time (or somebody kicks it off), then everybody gets a turn to show their stuff (and it's best to stay close to the melody, but if people want to go wild, so be it). This comment is fraught with my personal prejudice. It's probably obvious I've been playing Irish a while and need a change.
Irish trad is unison playing - certainly back home there's nothing hardcore or snobbish about that - it's just how we play our music. I do hear that sentiment a fair bit (i.e. it's snobbish to insist on unison playing) here in the States and it kind of baffles me. I probably wouldn't get too far if I went to a bluegrass jam and tried to get folk to play 100% in unison, with no breaks, as it's not how their music is played. I recently saw a documentary about the NY Irish trad scene and towards the end they had clips of Brian Conway on one hand, talking about how he loves carrying on the tradition, playing the tunes as he learned them from the old lads, in many cases keeping alive a tune that might be quite obscure and might've disapeared altogether. Then they talk to Eileen Ivers, who lists all the different genres of music she's starting to listen to (bluegrass, middle eastern, jazz etc etc) and how she plans on incorporating it into her playing. So to each their own. I'm an aging punk rocker, who's all about "tearing it up and starting again", yet I am only too happy to play trad tunes and adhere to the tradition. Old Sausage - while we don't "improvise" in trad, we do use "variations" - meaning individual players will subtly alter a passage of a tune the second time it's played through. Some folks use lots of ornaments and variations and others prefer not to. I always listen to as many versions of a tune, played on different instruments, to get an idea of possibilities for variations of my own.
Mike-- "At a session (an informal gathering in a pub or home to play tunes), generally you play unison or as close as everybody can get to it or people start giving you the eye. If they're playing Swallowtail and you don't know it, you sit quietly and wait for something to come along you know. Depending on your way of looking at things, this is either an important way to protect the tradition or snobbishness." Interesting differences in music tradition I guess -- I mean if that is the way the Irish trad. music is played (the ground rules) then those that like that will play it that way and then it is indeed more tradition than anything else. OTOH if someone is expected to enter the session a fully ready to play all tunes in top form and others start getting unhappy that someone is not playing exactly the right notes because they are learning then perhaps that smacks bit of intolerance. Of course there are degrees of that no one wants the tune to crash...or the experience to grate rather then please.... But everything depends on the culture of the music I guess --most folks who are just learning bluegrass -- unless they are aweful nervy don't step to the middle and try to whack out a break for risk of an embarrassing dischord -- or even cause the jam to slip a gear momentarily -- rather they stand to the back and chord along and/or play softly? Maybe that is what you do in a session too if you a beginner? Do chords and play quitely? I was unaware of that aspect of a session though. As a point of reference -- have you all seen the DVD Absolutely Irish --it has all the big traditonal Irish players and dancers oranized by Mick Moloney and it is an outstanding disk. Now that I think about those folks were all in complete unison - of course Eileen Ivers, Johy Doyle, and Liz Carroll, Aethena Tergis, Saemus Eagan, and the list goes on...but it is pretty tight and I'd never really thought about that. American Old tyme can clearly a lot more loose at times with about as many versions going on as players!!
Here we go then. I couldn't do the DUD thing to save my life, and I think my alterations probably go beyond subtle embellishment, but I hope it's some fun as a bluegrasser's take on this tune:
OS, As a hard-core Irish Trad purist with moments of intolerance, I think your version was way fun! Nicely played! My son is trying to get me to learn to improvise like that, and I'm inspired by your Swallowtail version to keep at it. (He's a 10-year old rocker, but as I understand it, both rock and bluegrass are based in pentatonic scales.)
OS, Excellent. Reminds me of the arrangements you might hear of Celtic tunes on the Thistle and Shamrock radio show.
Bernie, In a session setting, generally if you don't know a tune you just sit that one out, you wouldn't really play chords in lieu of knowing the actual tune - if you don't know the tune then you're most likely "winging" it with the chords which is kind of in the category of "noodling" which isn't really on at a session.. Learners either show up and play the few tunes they know/sit it out and listen/record the ones they don't and eventually expand their catalog of tunes by working on them at home. There are also "slow sessions" which are specifically geared for learners where tunes will be taught at the session and played at a slower pace. Expecting folk who show up to play at a session to know the tunes isn't intolerance, it's just what a session is. Commonly played tunes will differ by session and by region so it's always a good idea for folks to show up sans instrument the first few times anyway to find out what tunes are common to the session in question that they're wanting to attend. At the first session I ever went to I only knew about 6 of the tunes they played, but I still had a brilliant time listening to all the other tunes/instruments/players. I didn't feel like it was intolerant, or snobbish, but again, I'm Irish, the session was in Ireland and the concerns brought up here don't seem to be brought up back home. Certainly you would stumble across the odd unwelcoming session, but that's more down to the individuals making it up and not an indictment of Irish traditional music itself. I'm sure there are some less than welcoming bluegrass or old time jams/sessions to be found as well, but that wouldn't be a reflection on bluegrass or old-time music, just on the individuals involved in those particular less than welcoming gatherings.
Swallowtail Jig
Excellent job Chris, and those triplets in the B part sound great. You're pulling some really nice tone from that MK, too. Thanks for the kind comments, CelticDude and Sore Ears. I look forward to hearing your improvisations, CD!
I think there's a vital piece of information omitted when we're mentioning BPMs. That is the type of note (quarter, eighth, 16th, etc.) that is getting one beat. It's might be confusing to some and it might be assumed by others but it would probably be helpful to all if we mention the note type when we mention the BPM.
Speaking of BPMs and Irish sessions. I find it nearly impossible to play melody on my mandolin at session speed. Its just the nature of the instrument. Whistles, fiddles and pipes can fly at a much faster rate. For example I can play Swallowtail at about 126 BPM on the mando but around 160 on fiddle. Joe I think we are talking quarter notes. If you are going half as fast or twice as fast, chances are the units are different. Or you are in Central Time Zone where everything is a bit off.
Jill you are probably right about some BG sessions being less "open" -- but those that aren't are frowned upon -- and considered "snooty". Sure a rank beginner should not jump in and mess up a bunch of good players -- but in bluegrass as long as you are not making "trouble" you are pretty much welcome to play along -- albeit quietly. So in my mind its no big deal just a different format or set of rules and if you want to join something then one should get with the culture and blend in. But like I say its good to know because a person could create bit of a stink without knowing why!
Joe, yes, the whole bpm can be confusing. Some notation will have something like a picture of a quarter note = 126, which is nice, because then it's clear what the bpm means. In jigs, I believe that when bpm is referred to, it's the BEATS per minute, and while there are 6 eighth notes per measure, there are 2 beats per measure... so, the beat would actually be for the 3 eighth notes (duration)... am I right? In tunes that are 4/4 time.... the bpm can either be for the quarter note, or sometimes people call that as 2 beats per measure, rather than 4. But, that is pretty easy to figure out by setting the metronome and seeing which is more feasible...
Kyle Baker: this certainly is THE tune for the bouzouki. Nothing as beautiful as Irish (or Swedish) tunes played on the bouzouki. Your TC sounds good!!
I have a Chris Thile DVD where he plays the Swallowtail Jig. I found it hard to adapt to his style (pronounced differently to Thile). But it might suit some of you better than the Trad Irish approach - which is ingrained in my blood.
Yes, it's certainly suited to the bouzouki or.... now where's my Tenor Guitar?
Barbara noted that, "...In jigs, I believe that when bpm is referred to, it's the BEATS per minute, and while there are 6 quarter notes per measure, there are 2 beats per measure... so, the beat would actually be for the 3 quarter notes (duration)... am I right? In tunes that are 4/4 time.... the bpm can either be for the quarter note, or sometimes people call that as 2 beats per measure, rather than 4." Well now I know why this whole business of bpm is confusing -- if some call it 4 bpm and some call it 2 bpm and both tunes are in 4/4 time -- well then the answer depends! Also Barbara -- I do not claim to know music theory anymore but I'm sure you meant that for jigs 6/8 time is 8 eighth notes per measure -- yes?
Yes Eddie drag out that thundering Soares'y tenor...
Bernie, that shows you are paying attention! Yes, you are right about the eighth notes... I changed it in my post!
I'm probably getting too nit-picky here but I'm gonna lay this on y'all anyway. The definition of a time signature is as follows taken from Wikipedia (and probably all beginning music instruction methods); "Simple time signatures consist of two numbers, one above the other: * the lower number indicates the note value which represents one beat (the "beat unit"); * the upper number indicates how many such beats there are in a bar." What I'm reading is talk about the 'pulse' of the music rather than an understanding of a time signature as indicated above. Perhaps what would be better when we're speaking of metronome settings is to call it either PPM (Pulses Per Minute) when referring to the music's pulse or BPM (Beats Per Minute) when referring to the actual tempo of the eighth, quarter, or sixteenth note, for clarity's sake.
Joe, that makes sense to me! I learned basic music when I was a kid, took piano lessons, then organ lessons, and learned the very basics of music theory. Then I went 40 years without using it! So, when I took up the mandolin four years ago, I started with just learning by ear, from my instructor, as HE doesn't read music! After getting the hang of it, I decided to brush off my 'theory' knowledge, and try to remember it, and understand it from an adult's point of view! So, when it came to bpm's and the discrepencies I've noticed when talking about tempo, I, of course, googled it.... and completely follow and agree with what you are saying. I believe that OFFICIALLY, in 4/4 time, there are 4 beats per measure... and that means that the quarter note would be the count counted as a beat in beats per minute. I totally believe that when speaking about 2/4 or 4/4 time signatures, the bpm should be for the quarter note. But, in jigs, where the time signature is 6/8 or 9/8.... if you set the beat to be the eighth note, and were having a click to the metronome at every eighth note, it would be a lot of clicks. And... the BEAT (or PULSE, which is a better description), is 2 to a measure (in 6/8) or 3 to a measure (in 9/8), and that makes more sense.... I like your explanation or clarification, using pulse and beat... but most people just call it bpm.... or just a number.... "What's the tempo?" "I play at 120"... possibly not knowing what that really means, other than a number they set a metronome to! Thanks for the clear explanation... and the great suggestion!
I'm almost feeling like a video submission hog... glad I didn't impose limits to the number of videos one person can submit to the same tune! Here I set a metronome to 120 bpm (which is really pulses, since this is a jig in 6/8 time signature)... and played chords on my Petersen Octave Mandolin (which I don't usually do!) Then, I recorded it playing melody on my OM (which I don't usually do, either, especially at THIS speed!)... Here's the result:
I had recorded another one after this, playing very slowly to demonstrate the DUD pick pattern, uploaded it to YouTube, and noticed that it was terrribly out of sync, which defeats the purpose. So I deleted it, and am charging up a different camera and will try again (or it could be a computer problem). Then I went to look at this one, and see that IT is out of sync too (watch my left fingers... they don't match the notes I'm playing)... but figured that it didn't matter so much on this one, as it was the sound (somewhat sloppy, haha!) that I was going for, not the video!
To the discussion about Irish Trad, and sessions, etc. The band that I am in plays a fair amount of Irish Traditional tunes, albeit, not always with conventional Irish Traditional instruments. Never really played in a session per se, but, if the definition of a session is an informal gathering in a home, our band's practice sessions fit that definition. I've never played bluegrass, so I can only envision the descriptions of licks and improvisational solos, etc.... I do listen to a lot of Irish Trad music (and similar.... new england fiddle dance music, etc). When we are playing these tunes, those of us who are playing the melody (which may vary from just one person, to three people depending on the tune or the part of the tune). Sometimes we are playing almost exactly the same thing. Other times, we are playing the same basic tune, with ornamentation appropriate to the instrument that is playing (the flute plays the flutey ornamentation) or the banjo is doing a banjo-y thing. Some tunes, we've worked out some very cool harmonies... which is essentially playing the same thing... it just expands the sound of the tune (if that makes any sense). One way that we try to add some interest to the tunes we are playing, is by figuring out some cool arrangements (starting out with just 2 of the instruments, and having the other two come it at different parts of the tune.... maybe the flute dropping out and coming back in... something to change it up so it doesn't SOUND exactly the same the whole time (2 A's, 2 B's repeat 3 times), even though we are playing the tune pretty much the same the whole time through. Our cittern player will play chords the first time through, melody the 2nd time, then back to chords... this sort of thing. This is what WE do... but, we're just some folks sitting in a house in Des Moines Iowa, and there's no ITRAD police there to keep us in line!
Thank goodness for that! Life is so much better with no IRTRAD police... I've actually found while I was playing the Swallowtail jig that I do enjoy playing Irish tunes on the mandolin, if I play alone and at whatever speed I want and whatever tunes I want.... guess there is police for every music style... Bill Monroe was the bluegrass police and there is a great deal of Swedish trad police.... Keep on having fun playing music in whatever way you do it!!! Barbara, however many videos you share, I always enjoy watching them!
Swallowtail Jig on an Eastman 815 mandolin. Tom
Tom, very nice! Everyone seems to be able to master that B note by leaning over their finger from the E note.... except me! But, I'm working on it!
We all have to start somewhere. First video attempt ever. On my Eastman 815. Joe
Joe, welcome to the fun, whacky world of videoing yourself playing the mandolin! It truly gets easier as you go along! And look, two Eastman 815 submissions right in a row! Very good, especially for your first time. I forget, how long have you been playing the mandolin?
Barbara, Although I had a mandolin "under the bed" since the mid-70's I didn't really start to learn to play it until late 2006. My main song resource has been the Steve Kaufman "Four Hour Bluegrass Workout" augmented by the Jay Buckey collection of free tab. I've really enjoyed it, and the SOTW has encouraged me to learn several new ones. Thanks for your hard work in getting it rolling. Joe
i wish i was more in sympathy with this celtic stuff ... lovely renderings, all-around - but - if you don't mind, i think i'm going to pass.
Ahh, Bill...we'll miss hearing ya'...especially with the new mando!! See ya' next week! Here's my submission...my first take of 3 and this was the best one, though it's got a bunch of glitches..uhhh.....from the video recorder of course! Tough to find the time to do this so I'll have to make due with this one! I tried the DUD DUD but wasn't fully successful and hit a couple of extra Bs and some open out-of-place Es. Nice to cross the pond with this traditional Irish tune! I've really enjoyed everybodies submissions on this and last weeks Forked Deer! Extra points for identifying the bird on my shirt.....sorry still need a Mandolin Cafe shirt!!
Nice picking Rob! I assume you bought the shirt in N. America? If so your bird is Falco sparverius (American kestrel) -- and male at that. It is the smallest falcon on this continent. However if you bought the shirt in Europe it could be one of a couple of very similar Falco sp.
Dang, Bernie! You must be a birder!! Not just the common name but the scientific also! I've been enjoying your Gibson influences a bunch!!!
All the talk about Irish Sessions and Old-timey and Bluegrass brought to mind something I read one time about how a hallmark Old-Timey band could play in unison. Maybe a carryover from the session culture or Celtic music culture, perhaps, as I've also read where session weren't real in vogue as sessions until sometime in the earlier part of the 1900s. Maybe Jill or one of the other scholars have some input on this. Back to the Old-Timey groups, I guess it wasn't unusual for them to all take turns playing the melody and then all play the melody the last time. Perhaps it's all just lore with only a smattering of truth. But it certainly creates interesting conversation! Got my mando's neck adjusted, the bridge is got a slight warp around the G string area so my tech deepened the grooves a bit, we took off the pick guard as it was rattling, covered up about 3/4s of the bottom f hole, not to mention the wood and screw holding the pickguard up had to have a muting effect on the top, got a Weggen M150 pick I'm playing with and I think I like it better than the Dawg 2 or the Golden Gate...did I mention it seems to be playing a lot easier now but there's still some work to be done but another mando sometime would be fun, too. (savin' my nickels and dimes!) Got to play an F model GTR (George, Tut, Randy) last Saturday night. That was a sweet instrument! Back in the '70s George Gruhn, Tut Taylor, and Randy Wood contracted a Japanese factory owner to make mandolins for them to market in the U.S. Pretty sweet instrument with lots of tone and ease of play. Don't see them for sale much. I'd think it'd be a worthwhile purchase if one were to show up. Here's my version of Swallowtail. The second part is something I picked up Deb Greenblatt of Omaha, Nebraska.
I have surveyed birds for the North American Breeding Bird Survey for about 20 years. My main interest is bird song. I notice you are a birder as well -- its a great hobby. Cheers.
