Multi Track Options

  1. Dan Krhla
    Dan Krhla
    Please forgive me if this has already been discussed / posted, but I could not find it in a search. I have a 2 part question. First, for those who multi-track, do you record, play over, record play over or are you actually recording and mixing multiple tracks in Audacity or some other tool? Are you playing along with yourself during the video recording or do you mix it in afterwards?

    Second, for the amazingly talented folks who do a take on mandolin and then run thorough it on another instrument, are you just splicing the 2 together or what? Because the backing tracks continuity and transitions are AWESOME! I gotta get my butt in gear and just record something first, I know but these questions keep me up at night.

    As always, thanks in advance!!!
  2. Michael Pastucha
    Michael Pastucha
    Since there's only one of me I always do Multi-track recording. Usually starting with the mandolin I imagine a tempo and play to it, all the while recording it to a single track. When that's finished there's the mandolin lead with no backup, so I listen to the mandolin I've just recorded (in my head phones) and lay down a backing tracking with the guitar. When finished there are now two individual tracks recorded: 1) mandolin and 2) guitar. The next step is to "mix" them together so that they sound like they were recorded at the same time and come out in stereo.

    How you "record" and "mix" are processes with many options. My set up is like this: "Record" is done to a Digital Audio Workstation which is a stand alone device that mics and a pair of earphones attach to and records the instruments. Mine happens to be an old Yamaha MD8 which was quite expensive back in the day but some of the Zoom recorders and others are really getting inexpensive.

    Next: to "mix" I transfer the recorded tracks to my computer which has recording software called Cubase installed. It's here that the two separate tracks become one. It has all kinds of digital effects (like reverb, etc.) , equalization and panning that can be performed.

    More instruments just means more tracks. Audacity is a great program, I use it all the time, but not for multi-tracking. If you have a Mac you can use Garageband to do the recording and the mixing all in the same program. You'll need to get a mic and some way of getting the sound into your computer. The options are endless and very confusing. It took me years figure it out. I like the book, Home Recording For Musicians for DUMMIES which explains the process very nicely.
  3. Dan Krhla
    Dan Krhla
    Thanks, I was just trying to figure out the process of solo video recording. I know to learn some tunes (on bass) I have the laptop playing chords (out loud) and they get picked up on the recorder as I play along with them. As a learning tool its OK, but the quality degrades quickly.

    I guess the thing that still confuses me is how do you get the multi tracks lined up to your video. That's where my disconnect is.
    h

    Thanks!
  4. John Kelly
    John Kelly
    Hi, Michael offers you excellent advice above and like him I too record alone for the majority of my stuff, recording one track as a lead (the melody) then adding successive tracks by playing back what I have recorded into my headphones and adding the new tracks one at a time. Where I differ from Michael is that I record directly into my DAW software ( I use the excellent Reaper software rather than the Cubase Michael uses) which is installed on my laptop. I have an Edirol UA25 USB device which has 2 inputs with phantom power (needed to power my condenser mics) and for the majority of my stuff this is what I use. if I need more inputs for extra mics, as when recording with fellow band mates, i use a firewire-connected Phonic Helix mixer which allows me to assign each player/instrument a separate track.
    Once recorded, I mix the tracks in Reaper, adjusting volume and any panning to get a final mix I am happy with. This is then rendered (Reaper's term for converting the audio files to mp3 format) as an mp3 which becomes the sound track for the video. If I am filming myself playing I set up the camera with its screen turned round to face me so that I can get framing right, then I start the camera and the mp3 (at the start of which I have inserted about 5 seconds of silence to give me time to get ready!) which I have ready in the computer and play along to the mp3 to keep myself in time. I do not use the sound from the camera, which is recording me playing only whatever instrument I happen to be using. If I want to feature another instrument I go through the same procedure with that instrument.
    Now your question: how to sync the filming with the soundtrack you have on mp3. I use Sony Vegas software for my video editing and insert the video track with its sound track from the camera (this sound is in sync with the filming as it is recorded in the camera along with the visual stuff). I then insert the mp3 audio track into the Vegas and zoom in on the two tracks so that I can visually line up the music from the camera with the mp3 track. Using a chord as your opening sound is a good way of having a clear starting point to align the tracks to. The alignment is done by pulling the sound track into line with the camera sound track and checking that the video lines up with the mp3 track.
    One of the reasons I use scenic shots in my video clips rather than filming myself playing is that it is so much easier to blend film and sound when you are not looking for lip-sync accuracy.
    Hope this adds to what Michael has said and I look forward to seeing what you come up with when you get recording.
  5. WillFly
    WillFly
    Excellent advice from Michael and John! I have a very general web page on how I do my videos - here - which you can look at.

    I use a Zoom H2 for single-track recording these days - mainly for solo guitar - and sometimes two if I want a very wide sound spectrum. I place one near the neck end of the guitar and one down by the bridge end - but far enough away not to be too boomy. I transfer the individual tracks to my Mac Book Pro with Garageband and then sync and mix.

    However, for multi-track recording with different instruments I still use my old Roland VSR80 digital 8-track - though these days I often use a Zoom H2 as a microphone for the Roland instead of my Shure SM80. Depending on what I'm doing, I might mix the whole tune on the Roland - by "mix" I mean EQ (hi-lo frequencies), pan (left-right placing), etc. Or, I might upload each track separately to my Mac (either with Garageband or Audacity) and then sync and mix on the Mac.

    There are two small but important differences between Audacity and Garageband: Audacity allows a wide range of effects to be applied - changes to tempo, pitch, etc., - more than Garageband; however Garageband allows you to adjust volume and pan for each track independently, and while the track is played - which Audacity can't do.

    As far as video is concerned, I upload the camcorder file to iMovie on my Mac Book, edit the clip to my satisfaction, add the externally recorded sound file, sync up and then remove the camcorder audio track.

    In my early videos I used to use the internal p/up in my acoustic guitar for recordings - I never do that now. Unless I'm purposely playing my G&L ASAT (solid Tele-style guitar), I always record acoustically. So much nicer - and I now never use reverb.
  6. Marcelyn
    Marcelyn
    When Jeff and I do a big multi-instrument production, which is rare because of time constraints with two little (and not generally quiet) kids around, we use Adobe Audition. He has CS5 and loves it. Other than that, we do about the same things with recording equipment. I also follow John's technique of senic overlays (though mine usually include kids since that's the video at hand)

    My most successful technique for multi-track recording though has been way more low tech. Try systematically giving Christmas and birthday presents of instruments such as ukuleles or banjos to a significant other or close friend. Possibly, in the time it takes to figure out one of these programs, you could have a backup backup plan.
  7. Eddie Sheehy
    I'm at the low-end of the Spectrum here. I record either a backing track or the Melody on my Zoom Q3 and save the audio as an MP3. I then record the next track while listening to the MP3 on headphones and save that as an MP3 - until all tracks (3 or 4) are created. I use Audacity to Merge, Sync, and Mix the tracks. Then I use Roxio to add one of the Vids to the Mixed track. I've had Mixed success - but that's because I'm always in a hurry and cutting corners...
  8. Michael Pastucha
    Michael Pastucha
    John Kelly certainly knows his stuff. His Reaper software does an excellent job as well. Go to the Reaper website and you can download a trial version with full functionality as well. Most of the high end computer recording software programs work in very similar fashions, so it's just a matter of finding the "best" one for your needs.

    Like Will, I often bypass the computer to do my initial recording. I use my Yamaha digital 8-track because it is extremely reliable and works just like the mixing board we used to use when I was in a band and played through a sound system. It's a matter of what you are used to. The other reason is because when using the Yamaha there is no latency (delay) when overdubbing. What you hear in your headphones is exactly what you get. Latency or delay occurs sometimes when recording to a computer because even though your computer is fast it still takes some time to process the sound. Therefore, there is a delay in your earphones from when you actually pick a note and when you hear it in your earphones. The latency drives me up the wall even though I have an extremely fast and powerful MacPro digital workstation.

    Like Will and John, I record my videos at the same time as the audio recording is taking place. My little digital camera does a pretty good job but the sound is crap. I assemble the final puzzle in iMovie. The video with its crap sound, and an mp3 rendered from my final mix of the song. It's trial and error to get the two sound sources to line up, but once they are in synch, the video's original sound is turned off leaving only the "good" sound done on my home audio recording system.

    What I'd like to find is a better alternative to iMovie that would make the synching of the video and audio a whole lot easier. I'd also like it not to cost an arm and a leg to purchase. What is everyone else using to do this? I'm on a mac but also have a powerful windows pc available.
  9. CelticDude
    CelticDude
    Not to be a Luddite, but I also prefer a stand-alone unit to using computer-based recording. Too many horror stories about not getting the right software/equipment/soundcard combination. I use a Tascam DP-02CF, their cheaper 8-track device. It's very intuitive for just doing audio. You record your first track, then put on headphones to listen to what you've already recorded while recording your second and subsequent tracks. No latency issues either, which can also plague computer-based recording. You can also mix and master on the Tascam (it will export the tracks if you prefer to mix/master using Audacity, CakeWalk, or other software.) The final master can be exported as a .wav, which I download to computer and used for a video sound track.

    Mixing this with video gets trickier, but can be done with a free product like Windows Movie Maker (Apple may have something equivalent?). I have the trial version of PowerDirector, and know there are other products out there, for those who want to do a "video production". This will involve a video recording of each track being played, and then mixing the videos and final audio with PD. Haven't tried this yet, but it's coming...

    Like others, I'm using a digital camera rather than a camcorder. The video is fine to pretty good; the built-in microphone is crap. Plus it doesn't allow for multi-tracking, which is where this whole conversation started.
  10. Brent Hutto
    Brent Hutto
    To me it looks like the workflow of those button-and-slider digital standalones is more alike than different versus a DAW on a PC. With of course the signal difference that each button press or slider push is replace with clicking or dragging an on-screen icon with a mouse. But if you're comfortable with a PC mouse in your hand it's kind of six of one or half-dozen or the other after the initial setup phase. My view is a couple hours of downloading drivers and software and whatnot up front is paid back by a few minutes less doing file transfers every time you're ready to use the finished sound file, once again probably works out pretty similar in the end.

    Putting separate digital audio with a digital video stream seems a right PITA whether you try to do it with free/cheap tools or spring for a few hundred bucks worth of expensive softwares. One thing I've never understood in the Windows world is why it appears to be a metaphysically impossible request for one piece of software to simultaneously record video coming from a webcam and sound coming in via ASIO drivers from an audio interface. As far as I've been able to find, no such thing exists no matter what your software budget.

    I can record video from my web cam that looks pretty decent. I can record audio from my microphone into Reaper and it sounds real good. Why shouldn't I be able to record video from the web cam AND audio from my microphone into [fill-in-the-blank] and be done with it?
  11. Eddie Sheehy
    Dana, you are an erudite luddite...
  12. WillFly
    WillFly
    I've only used a computer for a (solo guitar) recording on one or two occasions - then I realised how basic the sound quality was - which is when I invested in my 8-track Roland about 10 years ago. The modern version of iMovie - which came bundled with my Mac Book Pro OS - is not as precise or as sophisticated as the previous version (iMovie HD) which came with an older version of the OS. So much so that when the new version came out, the outcry forced Apple to allow the older version to be downloaded as a freebie! The irony is that I now use the newer version because it's "good enough"...

    When I bought my current Mac - just over 2 years ago - I invested in Final Cut Express, which is a lot closer to professional movie editing than anything I've used before. Trouble is, I haven't invested the time in getting to grips with it other than at the most basic level. Where does the time go - even for us retirees?

    When I'm recording, I always remind myself that - no matter how sophisticated the software may be in producing the final mix - the initial recording is what you have to play with, so get that right.
  13. John Kelly
    John Kelly
    Interesting thread, this. We all have our methods and use them to get the best we can from the software/hardware/whatever, but as Will sagely points out, we often do not really get to grips with the inner workings of our software, caused as he says by having a finite amount of time and an infinite number of ways of using this time, and also because we dabble in so many aspects of our music, not just playing but recording, learning new tunes, creating video clips, etc. I too have found that retirement has not always provided the extra time. Maybe we need to be on certain forums less? Never!

    Will's final point is really important, where he says:
    "When I'm recording, I always remind myself that - no matter how sophisticated the software may be in producing the final mix - the initial recording is what you have to play with, so get that right."
  14. Brent Hutto
    Brent Hutto
    Yeah, it took me maybe three days total to get good enough at recording myself so that it was obvious the recording wasn't going to sound better until my playing improves. Now six months later my playing is a little better and I'm also quite a bit better at capturing its inadequacies on a recording.

    I dream of the day when I can play something I'm not capable of rendering into an MP3 file. Progress on the mandolin is orders of magnitude slower than progress on technical mumbo-jumbo, alas.

    P.S. Although I must add that the process of improving ones mandolin playing is far more rewarding than the process of fiddling around with hardware and software. Good thing, that.
  15. Tavy
    Tavy
    Brent: I don't do multitracking (or even much recording it seems these days!) but "Debut Video Capture" will do what you want for free - as it lets you choose video and sound sources independently - for example I record video from the webcam and sound from a USB mic. Be warned though that the program tries to install a whole bunch of stuff you probably don't want if you're not careful - so be on your wits when installing!!
  16. Michael Pastucha
    Michael Pastucha
    I'm glad that others still use the stand alone units to record the initial recordings. Will is absolutely correct -- it's the recording that has to be right. When you go to buy a home no one really cares what kind of hammer the craftsmen used to make it. Same thing with a recording -- it's the recording and not the tools used to make it that gets listened to. (Well, I do get interested in the instruments but not so much in the mics and computers!)

    Here's a thought! Recording is something that has to be practiced just like playing an instrument. For myself it's been about 14 months and about 75 videos since joining this group. That means going through the process of learning a song, playing it to recording devices, mixing the audio down, making the video and posting it at least once a week. And it's gotten easier as the weeks go by... the recording process that is. Learning a new song is always an adventure with it's own challenges and rewards. I've found that I'm ready to record a song when I've memorized it and can "play" the melody in my head without an instrument in my hand. Although I do play from tab sometimes, the ones where I absolutely know the song come out better and take a lot less time and fewer "takes" to record.

    When I watch the videos on the SAW group, it's the learning process that counts, whether it's reflected in just a simple webcam and mic job or a multi-tracked extravaganza! Time well spent I'd say... 'cause no matter what level you've obtained, there's always something new around the corner to discover.
  17. John Kelly
    John Kelly
    Spot on, Michael. The tunes we have learned fully, i.e. can play without the music in front of us, are the ones which I find always seem to record best and with fewest takes. One thing I have found with the SAW group is that I have seen and heard some great new tunes and wanted to get them on to a recording as quickly as possible, while the tune is fresh to the group and to me and the abc is newly off the printer!. This results in my playing from the music when I am still learning the tune and I am aware that those tunes often have a hesitancy and lack of fluency which is not so obvious in the tunes I know completely from memory. But as you say, it is all part of a great learning process and looking at the offerings of all the other posters always results in something new being picked up.
  18. Dan Krhla
    Dan Krhla
    Thanks again everybody, great stuff here. I was guessing at 'how do they do that' for a while now. I appreciate everyone taking their time to add to this. Hope someone besides me found this helpful!
Results 1 to 18 of 18