Here's my attempt at an up tempo bluegrass version of "Fire On The Mountain". I managed about 147 bmp. You probably wouldn't have to play so many breaks in a row in a band however -- you'd get to rest and play backup while everyone else took their breaks.
Thats fast !!!
That was great! I really like all your variations.
Here's the Mrs. and I doing a pretty straight up Old Time Version of this tune. Been meaning to learn this one forever. Loving her guitar on this one.
Yay, Steve and Dawn! Sounding good as always. You're obviously loving the snakehead!
OH yes great...love it
Michael, now I know why you count half notes per minute! Quarter notes would get you up to 294 bpm. (hope I got the maths right) My metronome conks out at 252. So I will never be able to get there ... Steve and 'Mrs': Nice relaxed OT sound (and not so slow either)
Thanks guys--it was really fun to do. We have enjoyed seeing all the other versions too. Some fine musicians in this group.
Very good Kyle- and sister. This is from Andy Statman's book. He has some similar variations but they were too much for me.
Nice maudlin! Kyle and sista' I really enjoyed your version a lot, also! Michael, that sped up version was real nice with those improvs on the melody. Sweet!
Michael (and anyone else to whom this applies), I notice that the fingers on your picking hand are curled. I tend to leave my outside three fingers straight (or only slightly curved). Is there a particular advantage to curling the fingers? Is this something I should be doing? Also, are you resting your pinky on the soundboard? I have MAJOR issues getting my hand to MOVE at a reel speed, as y'all have figured out by now. And I just don't understand why everyone else seems to get their right hand moving and I can't. When I try it's like it turns into some deranged monkey-hand on steroids, going balistic and flopping around like a rotting zombie. What heck am I doing wrong!!!???
Hi Martin - I think you're right that getting the right hand in order is the main thing that helps you build both speed and tone. The reason these guys have their fingers somewhat curled is because they are keeping their right hand as relaxed as possible, and that's what you should aim for. Holding your fingers out straight usually requires some muscular tension - you should aim to eradicate all tension. I find that every time I can find even a tiny thing that makes my picking more economical, I'm able to play better and/or faster. It takes a long time to build up speed because, as you've noticed, until your hand is really well trained it will just flail around, we all get that, and you have to spend a lot of time (a lot, lot of time) actually playing at a good speed to train it up to cope in that situation. I think the main thing is, it's much harder and takes a lot longer and more purposeful effort to do than most people can readily imagine. After all, when the pros do it, it looks so effortless, and it is, but only after they've trained themselves diligently, and they mostly started young. It does seem to be true that the younger you are, and the more dexterity you start out with, the easier it is to get there. But I don't believe that means we can't all do it, it just takes longer.
So much great discussion on this board, and the phrase that is going to stick with me is Martin's "deranged monkey-hand on steroids, going ballistic and flopping around like a rotting zombie." As for relaxed fingers: it's something I'm really trying to work on. I find that if I plant my right-hand pinky on the soundboard I can kind of anchor my hand without restricting the motion too much. However, the more I watch myself on these videos, the more I see how stiff my forearm is. I think what I need to work on more is getting my forearm, wrist, and thumb joint working more closely together in order to both speed up the playing, while maintaining definition and keeping as clean an attack as possible. OS, the advice is right on.
Martin, one thing that I've noticed in your videos is you not adhering to alternate pick strokes which might be a reason for the "deranged monkey-hand on steroids, going ballistic and flopping around like a rotting zombie" syndrome that you mentioned. I love that line, btw! Hilarious! For 1/8 note passages, like a lot of these fiddle tunes---like Fire on The Mountain---it's really important to alternate your pick strokes. Downstroke on the downbeat and upstroke on the upbeat. Say you are picking some 1/8th notes and you pick a B on the A string first (downstroke) and then your next note (still an 1/8th) an F on the E string you would pick that an upstroke. Typically you'd think that doing another downstroke to that F would be easier but it's really harder in the long run. If you try hard to stick to this "pick stroke theory" I guarantee your picking will improve from the "deranged monkey-hand on steroids, going ballistic and flopping around like a rotting zombie" that you describe (which I don't think it's really THAT bad). It really takes some practice but then all of a sudden it will work and the "AH HAH" moment happens. I'm still getting used to that myself...especially at faster speeds. One caveat to mention, of course, is when playing jigs in 6/8 time and using the duddudd pick strokes to emphasize the correct beats in 6/8 time. I'd also recommend Mike Marshall's 2 video set from Homespun. Lot's of great exercises to help get clean consistent pick strokes, string crossing, and tons of other excercises for chords, etc. Man...I'm going to go watch it right now...after I listen to THE GOAT RODEO SESSIONS! Good luck and happy picking!
One thing I'll add here. By no means am I a good picker but I have come along pretty well with my picking hand so I'll offer this advice. Take your pick and put it between your thumb and forefinger. Now make a firm fist...you should feel your forearm puff up like Popeye's. Now loosen it until your hand is almost open and that muscle becomes relaxed. That's the zone for picking. It was an off hand remark Mike Compton mentioned to me and it hit the nail squarely on the head, at least for me.
Martin: Yes my fingers are curled. They are also relaxed -- even the ones holding the pick. In fact, someone else could easily take the pick out of my fingers while I'm playing. As to the pinky, it may look like it is an anchor but it's not. The anchor is provided by two things working together -- it is the tension on the strap caused by the downward pressure of the thumb of my left hand, AND, the forearm of my picking hand (right) resting lightly but firmly on the top of the mandolin. This keeps the mandolin rock steady so as to avoid (I have to say it, it's just too cool...) Deranged Monkey-hand on Steroids, going Ballistic and Flopping around like a Rotting Zombie Syndrome. Other things that help me achieve faster picking speeds: practice, high string action, medium heavy strings, a really thick pick that doesn't flex, some kind of grip on the pick (I cut a cross hatched pattern with an exacto knife on both sides of my really cheap Dunlop 2.0 mm Gator Picks being careful not to cut near the edges of the pick only in the middle and then polish them so that they are slicker than you know what on a doorknob.)
Michael, I'm curious; how does high string action achieve faster picking speeds? I would think the opposite would help faster picking speeds?
Guys that is AWESOME advice! SAW is the BEST! I'm glad you liked my analogy too. I think I shall take this one bite at a time beginning with the relaxed finger curl and the pick direction. I like the squeeze the pick then relax suggestion. SAW is the best, but my one criticism of it is that we are all so nice and polite we offer a little too much encouragement. I can tell whether I sound okay or not; what I really need is for folks to say, "Hey, that sounded pretty good, but you looked really tense." Or, "Dude, your pick direction was out the window. What were you thinking!?!" I have a thick skin, so feel free to pick away at me (no pun intended).
Rob, I've come at that conclusion from experience and because it works for me. Lower action means less tension on the strings, so when you pick them they are all "loosey goosey" and don't come back to where they belong quickly enough for the next pick stroke. I checked my bluegrass mandolin (with stiff action) against my old timey mandolin (with a less stiff action) and sure enough the strings were a little higher on the mandolin with the stiff action. You can test out if a stiff action will work for you by just picking closer to the bridge and see if you like it. Everyone is different. Martin, I've seen many players who seem to do everything all wrong (from my point of view anyway) and can still pick me under the table. If it ain't broke don't fix it...
Michael, Ahh ok. I understand now. It has more to do with the stiffness of the strings than the actual action itself. I've never thought about that so thanks for clarifying for me! Interesting to think about. Martin, you are correct we are often so very polite on this group...which is great and makes the group more inclusive and less assuming, I think. Maybe if participants would like more critiques towards their videos it might be helpful to make that request when posting videos here. Whenever anybody asks for advice from this great group of peeps everybody that feels they might be able to help often give good, insightful advice. We're all pretty lucky to have found each other on this group. I know it sure has helped me progress a lot! GOOD TIMES!
There you go - for example I personally would absolutely recommend the opposite approach of having your action as low as possible without it buzzing. I would also advocate using the lightest gauge strings you can get away with. Let the microphone do the hard work. You want to be relaxed and efficient - to my way of thinking, high action and heavy gauge strings don't promote that. But as Michael says, whatever your theory, there are some great pickers who do it another way.
Rob, good idea ~ we should just ask for critique. That will avoid offending anyone. As for action, I can understand both points of view. At this point in my progression getting strings to snap back isn't that big a factor though, since I don't play that fast anyway. I do need a little bit string height though as I do a lot of hammer ons ~ for that the string needs to be able to travel a little bit in order to hit the fret hard enough.
Hi Martin, I can see how you can picture it that way, but if you think about it, it's really your fingers that snap the strings on to the frets, so the lower the string is to start with, the less your finger will have been slowed down by pushing against the string's tension before the string hits the fret. In other words, you fingers need to travel a bit, not the strings. So it ought to be easier to perform a hammer-on with lower action.
Hmmmm. Hadn't thought of that. Great, now I'm going to waste half the day pondering . . . I sent a note to my professional classical guitarist nephew about this. I'll let you know what he says. Interesting. I wonder if HO's on nylon strings are different in some way than steel strings (other than the obvious).
Okay, here's what my nephew had to say . . . "I must say that I have to agree with your friend here. The closer the string is to the fretboard the easier it will be to hammer on. What matters in a hammer-on is not the distance of the string from the frets or even the... distance of your finger to the string. The most important factor is the speed at which your finger touches the string. Your finger can be less than half an inch away, but if your movement is fast it is just as effective as if it were an inch and a half away. The amount of pressure that you use also makes little difference. You don't actually need to press down any harder than you would normally to press the string. Speed is pretty much the only factor in a successful hammer-on. "
There you go. You can easily verify it for yourself. Hammer on from an open string to the 2nd fret. Should sound nice. Now try the same hammer-on higher up the fingerboard, an open string to the 5th, 7th or 12th frets where the action is higher. The higher you go, the quieter the hammer-on is, and the harder it is to play cleanly.
Also, I've seen evidence that Jethro Burns, Mike Marshall, Chris Thile, Ted Eschliman and Matt Flinner all recommended against high action at some time or other. Stout strings and high action will definitely make you louder, but they will make it much harder to play in just about every situation. I know some people want the extra tension for the tone, but honestly if your mando doesn't sound good unless it's strung with deep sea cables or hung high as a telegraph, it's probably time to go shopping for a better one. Your real tone comes from your hands, not your mando, so put your fingers first.
Groovy.
I'm definitely on board with the lower-action crowd. I've been continually sanding down my bridge, trying to bring the action as even and as low to the fret board as I can while trying to avoid any buzzing (that's not caused from sloppy left-hand work, of course). I have found, however, that I've had to stay away from lighter gauge strings as I've moved the strings lower. This is probably more of personal tone preference thing, as I was taught in what I would call a Grisman tradition, but I've found that anything less than medium gauge strings just gets really sloppy as I move the action lower. At any rate, I just gave The Goat Rodeo Sessions the debut listen, and if Thile does all that on light gauge. . . . Do you guys have any set-up/string advice for someone like me who often finds himself (not to exclude our female cohorts) playing on a stage with a one mic set-up and having to force the volume a bit?
Martin, It looks like everything has been pretty well covered as far as the right hand goes but thought I would post this video that I saw recently. This video is mostly guitar stuff but this guy is a great mandolin player too and I think the right hand stuff is fairly applicable. His mandolin triplet and Red Haired Boy videos are pretty good too. http://youtu.be/GXNABMV-hu4
BanjoBen is a pro, and he gives great advice in his videos. Kyle I use medium strings (J74) myself and I think you have to be careful when you change the string gauge you use. I don't think you need to go lighter than 11s unless you get hand pain. I have found that you can get a distinct change in tone caused by the change in neck bow because of the different tension on the neck when you use a different string gauge. I would advise anyone who wants to change their string gauge to factor in the likely necessity of getting the truss-rod adjusted to compensate. You can do it yourself of course, but pros are best for that sort of caper. If you really need to push the volume up, then heavy strings and high action is the way to go. But if it's a one-mic set-up the easy answer is, get thee nearer the mic and get thy bandmates to back off.
Here's sort of a PS to our version of "Fire On the Mountain". Here's 3/4 of our band running through the tune this evening. I do what I can to balance rhythm and melody along with both Dawn and the fiddler, Josh Johnson. I do not want to play straight rhythm, so I try to take as many elements as I can that would back up the key points of the tune while still trying to hang in there with Dawn on the rhythmic versions we have practiced. Josh is a Missouri/Ozark style fiddler and also a clawhammer bano player. Sorry about the sound quality--I have a vaulted ceiling in my living room. Sounds awesome when you are picking in there but makes for a hot video. We are missing Dan Wood, our banjo player who got called away unexpectedly. Still, might be enough to get an idea of how we try to tie things together. Sorry for bumping into the middle of the technique conversation.
I would further add that I cannot sit still and play. Just can't be done.
Awesome, I'm glad you came in with that, it's a lot more fun than what I was talking about, that's for sure!
Steve: there's nothing more fun than playing in a band when the music's right! KyleG: I know your problem with one mic. When I'm playing with a 5 string banjo (probably the world's loudest instrument) in a bluegrass band and it's time for a mandolin break, I'll position my body between the mic and the banjo (keeps the banjo from being picked up) and bring my mandolin (probably the world's coolest instrument, but not as loud) as close as I can get to the mic. Don't be bashful, get right in there and be heard -- everyone will learn to get out of your way once they figure out what you're doing.
That's great Steve & Co.! Fiddle is a little heavy on the balance, but still a great listen!
No doubt about that Martin--playing with a fiddle as loud as that one really needs a mic set up....but I use my iPhone for convenience. Apparently it liked the fiddle, but it seemed much more balanced while we were in the room.
Yes, I'm sure it sounded totally different live. So what sor of gigs and where do you guys play?
We do both contra dances and regular gigs that are a mix of songs and tunes. We lately have done a program that concentrates on Old Time music and how it came to be in our area. Sort of a narration punctuated with music. That one always seems to come across favorably. We all come from the original settlers in this area. My fifth Great-Grandfather was "Long Hunter" James Fisher--sort of a local celebrity in his time. His father explored the territory with Daniel Boone. We do different pieces that might have been common through the years as entertainment. We have gotten several requests to do that one for historical societies and as private dinner functions....sort of a sit down, eat and listen kind of thing.
That sounds really cool Steve!
