fingering

  1. dmahling
    dmahling
    So here is a pretty basic question:
    when you play in fifth on an instrument like a guitar or mandocello or cittern (anthing longer than a mandolin, i.e., 15 inches and longer scale), you need to go to cello fingering, you cant do violin fingering anymore (IOW: in first position cello fingering the index is glued to the 2nd fret, the middle finger to the 3 fret, the ringfinger to the 4th fret and the pinky to the 4th and 5th while in violin fingeringing index covers 1,2 fret, middle 3,4 fret etc); what this means is that you can get to the FFCP type closed scale fingering for jazz and blue on the mandolin but not on the guitar/cittern.

    So... why would you go to a fifth tuning on a longer scale instrument?
  2. catmandu2
    catmandu2
    I do employ mando/fiddle fingering on my CBOMs, albeit, with much stretching and shifting. But, I expect one reason you'll hear for 5ths is the logic of symmetry; even though I've played guitar for 20 years longer than I have fiddle/mandos/CBOMs, I still enjoy the ease of 5ths. Here's a recent relevant thread: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=57111
  3. Explorer
    Explorer
    I must have missed reading the rulebook on my mandophones.

    dmahling wrote,

    "when you play in fifth on an instrument like a guitar or mandocello or cittern (anthing longer than a mandolin, i.e., 15 inches and longer scale), you need to go to cello fingering... in first position cello fingering the index is glued to the 2nd fret... ."

    Why would my index finger be glued to the second fret, or to anywhere? I normally use the FFCP positions, and practiced them to be able to use them. I think of the motion for the needed 7-fret span (starting on middle finger) as a rolling motion... but normally I can just continue upwards, instead of crossing to the next string.

    My advice to you? Although you can look to other instruments to find playing technique inspiration, don't assume that ANY technique is a hard and fast rule.

    Once past your objection to moving beyond cello fingering, what reasons are there to use full fifths?

    Beyond the symmetry, one gains a MUCH larger range on a six-course instrument compared to a standard tuned guitar (3+ octaves). Even if one has a 5-course instrument, tuning that bottom course or string to C2 gives you two whole steps below the normal E2 of standard tuning. Adding a high B4 or a low F1 adds a fifth beyond that, for almost an entire additional octave compared to standard tuning.

    My Agile Intrepid Pro eight-string guitar has a range of 6+ octaves, from Ab0 to A6, larger than most extended-range guitars or Stick instruments with 12 strings. If tuned in full fourths, I'd only have from E1 to D6, one whole step short of 5 octaves. Considering your original questions, and as the Intrepid has a 28.625 scale length, I can only imagine your reactions to it. *laugh*

    Anyway, if you're interested in a fuller background, I suggest you read through the conversations here on the group, and then reading the threads in the main forum dealing with fifths tuning on guitar. The search function is your friend, and there's much too much to rehash here....
  4. dmahling
    dmahling
    no no; I was not clear. That is not my issue.

    When you have a scale longer than 15 or 16 inches, the FFcP fingering for an instrument tuned in fifths does not work (at least not for me) because the stretches for the fingers become too long. I tried to tune my Fylde cittern C,G,DAe; it has a 23 inch scale. Forget it. I can not do FFcP as I do it on the mandolin.

    On the mandolin the FFcP patters sit under my fingers and come easily. On the 23 inch Fylde the become impractical. So... I retune the Fylde to my beloved G,DAda and do cello fingering, up and down the neck.

    But that back to my question. Am I missing a key trick to do FFcP on 23 inches? Or is it physically/physiologically impossible? The furthest distance between the tip of my index finger and the tip of my pinky (hand fully splayed) is 6.5 inches; I think I have big enough hands.... but that's still not good enough for FFcP on 23 inch scale.

    Dm
  5. catmandu2
    catmandu2
    I guess if you view FFcP strictly verbatim--in that the fingerings are inflexible--I would agree that this is usually not viable for longer scale lengths (without inordinate stretching). Still, while I don't have the instrument handy, I suspect that I employ a good bit of, what you might call FFcP proper, on my 17" dola, and shorter OMs. My approach is that fingerings are one of the more flexible aspects of playing musical instruments...Django Reinhardt, Charles Mingus...the "correct" fingering is the one that you find optimal. I think the salient aspect of FFcP is the note pattern--the fingering pattern just happens to be notated as such because it is a mandolin. Take a 23" scale instrument and notate FFcP with different fingerings...it's still a useful device.
  6. dmahling
    dmahling
    Now we are getting closer; thanks for sticking with me Catmandu2;

    Yes, I think you can do FFcP on a 17" CBOM. But try to go to 19" or 21" or such and all of a sudden the whole idea - not just the fingering - evaporates. In my opinion, on crucial FFcP idea is that you can do a 7 fret stretch on one string - so that you can play chord arpeggios across strings; example: you may play Eb Maj7 the following way:
    frets (fingers) on D string: 2 (i) 6(r)
    frets (fingers) on A string: 2 (i) 6(r) 7(a)

    on an 18" Waldzitter the 2(i) to 7(a) is a 6"in stretch; doable but it hurts and will not lead to virtuouso music, I guess. Go beyond 18 and it is impossible. So no matter how you finger it, you must "let go" of the index finger on 2nd fret to reach the 7th fret with the pinky; that takes time and leads to inaccuracies. That's why I think that the spirit of FFcP can not go beyond 16,17 inches.

    Of course you can tune in fourths and come up with the same idea of FFCP for that. That way you dont need 6" stretches.

    DM
  7. groveland
    groveland
    I'm late to the thread. But I have some thoughts that justify the tuning, and may even help a bit.

    I have run some of Ted's FFcP exercises in what some would call 'first position' on 25 1/2" scales and beyond and, it is a stretch. But there is no rule that says you must, or even should, keep your fingers glued to the fretboard. The point of FFcP, is, as stated above, to get the patterns going, and to get the pinky in the game. I find it accomplishes these objectives as well on the long scales as short scales. There will be a certain amount of rocking with your thumb as a sort of fulcrum behind the neck to stretch the 7 or 8 frets as the case may be. (You will NOT be hanging your thumb over the neck!)

    I have posted this fact on numerous threads, so forgive my redundancy. But modern guitar technique (granted, mainly electric), requires that kind of stretch. The kind of stretch where you grab 4 or 5 scale tones per string. I don't think I'm going out on a limb with the assertion that it is standard operating procedure for players in rock, jazz, and other genres to have this capability. And that stretch is nothing but mando technique on a long scale.

    Go looking on the web for video examples. I like to start out with suggesting Allan Holdsworth as a good primer for these techniques, but you can pick any of the guitar virtuosos of the 80's and 90's. Or even fast kids showing off. More often than not, I'm thinking, the stretch is performed so effortlessly, you may not even put it together that there's nothing about FFcP on a long scale that is unusually challenging.

    So fifths tuning on guitar, nowadays, makes perfect sense. The past guitar gods instituted the stretch, and the stretch is commonplace. Now we just have to promote the tuning that best leverages the modern stretch techniques already in use: Fifths.

    I'm a big fan. It's all I do nowadays.
  8. groveland
    groveland
    Nothing's been happening here lately. Time to stir the pot.

    I'll post a video. CGDAEB. I put this out a few months back, circa the time of the discussion above.


    By the way, the B string I'm using in this video... I'm still using the same one, NINE MONTHS and counting!

    Craig
  9. Explorer
    Explorer
    Hey, brother Craig! Long time no read!

    I suspect the reason there haven't been many posts recently is because a lot of us were spurred to talk about full fifths when we started looking at using the O4+ strings. Now that we've been working it for quite a while, it's old hat. *laugh*

    I did notice something persistent in DM's post which I hadn't before, the repetition of how one must "unglue" the lowest finger in order to reach higher frets. I had thought that he/she had abandoned that idea earlier in the thread, but it became clear upon rereading:

    "Go beyond 18 and it is impossible. So no matter how you finger it, you must "let go" of the index finger on 2nd fret to reach the 7th fret with the pinky; that takes time and leads to inaccuracies. That's why I think that the spirit of FFcP can not go beyond 16,17 inches."

    Since I had made clear that there was no rule that one's index finger must be "glued" to the lowest position (or, at least, that none of my instruments had come with the rulebook), I had thought the "rule" was going to be put to the side, and so I missed it being asserted just as strongly again.

    Still, Groveland, I'd like to thank you for posting that video... and for showing that you, friend, are master of the "impossible". *laugh* Seriously, though, there's nothing like an example to refute a charge of impossibility.

    Incidentally, I've not had to change any of my O4+ strings either, and haven't suffered any breakages except when first stringing and bringing them up to tension. I'm afraid that Garry isn't making money from me the way I had expected. *laugh*

    And, I'm still hoping you're going to release a version of CitternExplorer for six coursed instruments. C'mon, man, do the work so I don't have to. *laugh*
  10. dmahling
    dmahling
    Sorry to burst your bubble TJ, but Craigs video proves my point to the T (and the J). Craig uses cello fingering and position changes. He does not use violin fingering and does not employ FCCP. the max interval between index finger and pinky on the video is never more than 4 frets. you can find the rule book (which seems to amuse you so much) for you jazz mando, where all this is explained in much clarity than I could ever hope to achieve, here:
    http://jazzmando.com/ffcp_studies.shtml
  11. "Umm, fish?"
    "Umm, fish?"
    I am not yet in the CGDAEB fold, but I have a 22" scale twelve-string on the way.

    My approach to use of modal scales for improv on the mandolin has always been to mix and match the modes and move around quite a bit anyway. I tend to focus on the notes available to my first three fingers and switch modes if I want to focus on a different part of the scale.

    So, for example (on mando), if I want my improv to sound more "major," then I spend a lot of time in the I mode. That relegates the IV and VIII notes to my pinky and they don't get used as much.

    If I want to get some dissonance in, then I switch to dorian or phrygian mode and the III-IV and VII-VIII half step relationships get a lot more emphasis in my improv.

    In the end, I guess I agree with all of you. The longer stretch does become impossible. But the FFcP is just a tool to help you understand the relationships among the modes and how they are interconnected on a fifths-tuned instrument and that is just as true on a larger fretboard. It's just a bigger stretch and a matter of moving your hand.

    (And I have tuned a full-scale guitar into CGDAEE and tried. It's harder, but it still works.)
  12. Guido Sarducci
    Guido Sarducci
    I like that jazz video. Im into neoclassical shred and Ive been playing with NST. Ive found several ways to finger scales. 6 notes per string and 4 notes sliding the index up and sliding the pinky down the scale. My favorite is 4 nps/4 fingers like 2 2 note patterns on each string. So you play B and C index and middle and shift your hand up a little without moving your thumb and play D and E with the ring and pinky.... I like that alot. Its tricky but cool. Im not sure if you could ever do that as fast as sliding though. Nst has nice arpeggios too...

    I play a full 25 1/2" ( 24 fret electric ) but I do avoid the lower frets. Im playin it like a cello with open strings and move up to 7th fret+. I saw a video of Robert Fripp playing a 4 finger scale starting at about the 2nd fret and he called that an "unpleasant situation". You might even hurt yourself.

    Im thinkin if Django Reinhardt could play 3 notes with 2 fingers you should be able to play 4 notes with 4 fingers.
  13. groveland
    groveland
    A fellow NST enthusiast! It's a pleasure to meet you, sir.

    Yeah, the benefits and hazards of the thing. But I can't see going back. I think we lose some standard techniques, like tighter arpeggio sweeps, for example. But then, like you said, arpeggios are way simple in fifths-tuning.

    I used to do some neoclassical shred... But you guys started approaching 40 notes per second, and I had to bail.
  14. Guido Sarducci
    Guido Sarducci
    It dosent have to be 40 notes per second. I wouldnt even try. Im satisfied with 160-170 bpm 16th notes + faster with legato. But I do love to hear 40 notes per second. I was surprised when I read orchestra cellos are 27.4" scale length. CGDA. Wow. Thats even harder. I started getting fast scales last night sliding only the index up and down 4 notes per string. I thought you have to descend sliding the pinky. You can slide only the index and the scales are approximately as fast as using open strings and 3 fingers. Ill use that too sometimes. I read that Paganini used to finger scales like that on violin - sliding the index finger - "glissando". He had a strange way of holding the violin that made him do that alot.
  15. "Umm, fish?"
    "Umm, fish?"
    I've found that the most natural way to solo (for me, of course) on my short-scale guitar is to divide the scale in half. I tend to concentrate on notes 1, 2, 3, and 5, 6, 7 until I want either 4 or 8. At that point, I shift my hand up and spend some time with 2, 3, 4, and 6, 7, 8 for a while. I can make the stretch to hit all four notes on each string, but I had a bout of tendonitis in my pinky last year from making the stretch a little too energetically on the mandolin so I try to avoid it where possible now. When I tried it on the long scale guitar, I was able to work the same way pretty well. The stretches on the long neck to hit chords are what kills me.

    Chords sound awfully good on this instrument, though. You get that nice spaced-out sound (almost like Aaron Copland in Billy the Kid or something) but it's more full than mando. Very cool. I'm playing my little toy guitar through a bass amp with a 10" speaker now just so I can really get the full effect of that C string.
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