tailpieces!

  1. bratsche
    bratsche
    For anyone who has upgraded to a better tailpiece, please post your comments! Which one did you opt for? Did it make any noticeable difference to you, and if so, please explain? Did you have to plug the screw holes and drill new ones?

    I upgraded to a somewhat better tailpiece on my M16 mandola - not a cast one; it's a two-piece gold toned one, but it's made of significantly thicker metal than the stock Mid-Mo tailpiece. I can't claim anything about any tone difference or improvement due to the tailpiece, since I did it when I first got the instrument (used and in need of a string change), and I installed TI strings to replace the old round-wound ones. But it does have much more of a solid feeling than my mandolin has, a thing I especially notice because my arm is over the tailpiece most of the time.

    I am contemplating changing the tailpiece on my very special M2 that I've been playing for quite some time. I don't relish drilling holes in it, but it might be necessary, as these stock Mid-Mo ones don't seem to have "standard" spacing.

    Anyone care to share their experiences?

    bratsche
  2. 8ch(pl)
    8ch(pl)
    Hi Bratsche,

    I swapped out to a Weber Universal tailpiece for my M-4. I thought it sounded beter, but then it also got a string change, so who can tell.

    I like the look of the Weber, it came with an endpin that has a rubber bushing and friction fits to hold it in (the tighter the machine screw, the tighter the hold). It required boring out the tapered hole to a straight drill diameter.

    The screw holes lined up, however, there was a gap under the little edge of the tailpiece which is supposed to set the tailpiece on the top. I made a shim out of pine, about 1/32 in thick to fill the gap.

    I am going to buy another Weber tailpiece for my M-1, which is a Christmas present.

    I think for the price it is a good choice. The James is probably the best available but it is quite a bit more.

    If your hand is on the tailpiece most of the time, you may consider the Weber tailpiece that has an incorporated Armrest. You can check them out at Elderley's website. they run about $180 though, so that is a consideration.

    hope this helps.

    Glen
  3. bratsche
    bratsche
    Hi Glen - thanks for replying! I knew I had read about someone using a Weber on a Mid-Mo around here before, and am glad you chimed in with more details of your experience! It's good to know that the holes lined up. (Maybe it is actually the heavier metal two-piece one I put on my mandola that has the irregular spacing? Who knows?!)

    It's a nice design, though, and smooth looking, unlike some of the other cast ones with odd contours that I imagine leaving impressions in my arm! I was comparing them and liked the stainless steel option best - I think it was the cheapest, too, $70 plus shipping at the Weber site. Which one did you get?

    I saw that Weber armrest, and the price is ridiculously high. Though I have considered making one, since I have a huge box of ebony scraps and reject boards sitting here (over 15 lbs, probably) that I got on ebay a bunch of years ago for dirt cheap. It would have to fit over the tailpiece, though, or be somewhat integrated with it, like the Weber one, and that is another project for down the road, if at all - I haven't got time right now!

    Anyone else tried any others?

    bratsche
  4. 8ch(pl)
    8ch(pl)
    Hi again,

    I have the Nickel plated Universal, no logo. Those armrest versions are pricey but nice. I wonder if a home made version could be epoxied to a Weber tailpiece.

    One thing with the Weber, you need to bend the string loop up over a pencil so it will slip under the front of the tailpiece more easily and engage the hook.

    For the money, likely a good choice.

    Best wishes
    Glen
  5. bratsche
    bratsche
    I called Weber, and they are out of stock on the stainless and very likely discontinuing them, and their price on the nickel one was prohibitive, as I knew I had seen them for less elsewhere. BUT afterward, I found an online source that had the stainless one on closeout for $47, so I couldn't pass that up!

    I was thinking about making an ebony top for it that's more suitably tailored to my needs than their expensive armrest, but at the same time "inspired" by its design. I can't wait until it gets here and I have some free time to experiment!

    bratsche
  6. 8ch(pl)
    8ch(pl)
    Hi again,

    I know we should not depart from Mid Missouri content, but what Brand is that nice Bowlback in your Photo?

    Glen
  7. bratsche
    bratsche
    That's my Vega (an eBay steal-it-now at $250 a few years back). It is nice, in great shape for a centenarian, and has beautiful tone and comfortable action, but MAN, is that thing hard to play, compared to the Mid-Mo! Here's the full picture of it.
  8. 8ch(pl)
    8ch(pl)
    That was a good deal, I got a Vega Mandolin Banjo on ebay, (from Ohio) for $205. It is marked Style K but it has a Tone Ring from a Little Wonder, so it is not typical, since the Style K has no tone ring. The serial numbers match up on both the pot and the Dowel Stick. I have it dated to 1918.

    I have set it up with a large bridge, very light strings (2 sets of Tenor Banjo strings), an old sock stuffed between the head and the dowel stick (under the bridge), It is a fun instrument to play and since I do folk, country and a bit of old time it fits in. The changes I have made mellow out the sound, make it less Rangy.

    Still love my Mid Missouri though.
  9. bratsche
    bratsche
    Update to my tailpiece saga:

    Wow, I am glad I got this thing! What a difference, and I haven't even changed my strings yet...

    I wanted to do an honest A-B comparison, which of course meant only changing one thing about the mando at a time.

    So I carefully wrapped and tied a long shoelace around the neck/fingerboard to keep the 4+ year old TI strings in place. They were sounding pretty dead and dull, and I knew they needed replacing. But I resisted the temptation to do it all at once. I loosened the strings and got them off the tailpiece, which I then replaced with the Weber universal stainless steel one. Luckily the screw holes matched up fine, although the endpin hole didn't. But I didn't want to mess with that, because I didn't have a lot of free time, and I just wanted to hear how the same strings sounded with the new tailpiece.

    Sustain increased noticeably. That was the first thing that jumped out at me. In spite of the fact that the places the bridge and all the frets come in contact with on these old strings had moved, the strings actually sounded a lot better than they had before. And since I've been busy these past few days, I've had to let it sit a lot, and have not gotten around to putting the new strings on it yet.

    But after letting it sit and settle in, I've found that it even sounds better today than it did right after I changed the tailpiece. And the angle of the tailpiece is higher than the original one, so that when my forearm rests on it, besides being more solid and immobile and not affecting the intonation, my wrist also clears the bridge better, so my playing is easier and sounds better, letting the top vibrate more. I don't even know if I'll need to put an ebony top on it to make it higher, but that is certainly not as high priority an issue any more. All in all, I am really glad I did this!

    MidMo + Weber tailpiece = ***** five stars. And it even looks nicer!

    bratsche
  10. 8ch(pl)
    8ch(pl)
    Hi Bratsche,

    I figured you would like the Weber. The Stainless version likely weighs a bit less than mine (the plated ones are cast in Bronze, which has a higher Specific Gravity). Your test with the same strings was more subjective than my experience of doing it all at once and claiming it was an improvement. I feel now that I can say it is better.

    I meant to comment on your photos, you really do have a nice collection of Flat Top Mandolins. I imagine the Sawchyn must be really nice. I thought of saving up my Gig Money and ordering one from the builder, (no Customs since he is in Saskatchewan), but I found another Mid Missouri (M-1) for $300 in the classifieds and I snagged it. The Beavertail would run over $1,000.

    The Flatiron is another gem. I know you are enjoying them all.

    Have a good Christmas everyone.
  11. 8ch(pl)
    8ch(pl)
    One thing different that I have noticed between my 2 Weber tailpieces, is that the angle of the top is a bit different. One allows the strings to touch the underside, the other does not.
  12. bratsche
    bratsche
    Hmmm, is it really the angle of the tailpiece that is different, or is one of the instruments' bridges a significantly different height than the other? On my stainless Weber tailpiece, the strings would be touching it except that I glued some leather on it to keep it from being direct metal-on-metal contact.
  13. 8ch(pl)
    8ch(pl)
    You may be right, I haven't checked the angle of the respective Tailpieces against each other. Also the shim may be a bit thicker on the m-1 than on the M-4.

    The tailpieces are a bit different, the second one is actually from a Weber instrument, as it has the W cast into the top.
  14. 8 String Samurai
    8 String Samurai
    Was the replacement as easy as it sounds? I have an M4W that I've been itching to change the tailpiece on, and your experience might have pushed me over the edge...
  15. 8ch(pl)
    8ch(pl)
    Sorry to keep you waiting for an answer 8 string, I find that this version of the Website is confusing as to when a new post comes in.

    Both of my Tailpiece changes went well. the M-4 was just screwed in to the existing holes. If I remember correctly, I had to plug one hole on the M-1. Both sat a little high, there is a little edge that is meant to sit down on the top, in both cases there was a gap, which I made a shim to fill.

    Th Weber is a nice looking unit, string changes are fairly easy. There are others that are better, like the James, but it is 50 to 60 percent higher in price.

    My idea was that I would be playing these instruments a long time from now so I decided to fit them out to make them the best they could be. I have pickguards and arm rests on them as well.
  16. bratsche
    bratsche
    Here's my ebony armrest that I made to fit over the Weber tailpiece on the M-2. It's very minimalist, but works fine for me right where I need one. It's tied in place with a shoelace, so it's secure, but very easily removable.



    You can also see the black-dyed maple violin style bridge I also made, inspired by Red Henry (though he discourages dyeing them).

    bratsche
  17. Japhy
    Japhy
    I wonder if this tailpiece would fit an M11W.

    http://elderly.com/accessories/items/OMT1-BRONZE.htm
  18. Dave Weiss
    Dave Weiss
    Did you get your mandolin yet? What makes you think it needs a new tailpiece? I think they're just fine without any "improvements", but to each his own...
  19. Japhy
    Japhy
    I just ordered it! The dealer said it was a slightly lighter build than the one they had before. Lighter in color as well. So I'm trying to not think too much about what all that means. Anyway, Like some other Big Muddy owners I think the tailpiece is it's weak point at least aesthetically speaking. So I thought I might like to pop a new one on there at some point. I am a bit picky about aesthetics. Silly I know!
  20. Dave Weiss
    Dave Weiss
    The tailpieces that come on the Big Muddies aren't standard (if there is one) as far as I can tell and quite likely have to have holes filled and re-drilled, adding to the cost, but not the value...
  21. Japhy
    Japhy
    Well, after a few weeks of playing my M11W it seems I'm going to probably need a new tailpiece. I have to be aware of my arm position constantly or my arm presses one side of the cover and it pops off. This has happened several times. If that happened in front of a crowd it would be embarrassing. So I'd like to find a tailpiece that will line up with the existing holes. But I suppose it's a roll of the dice.
  22. FatBear
    FatBear
    I was recently exchanging emails with Mike Dulak about upgrading the tuners on my MW-0w. Both my local luthier and instructor hate them. I'm too dumb to know the difference. :-) He said that the Golden Age tuners from StewMac will drop in with no need to fill screw holes and only one new screw hole to drill, which is easy. But that's not why you were reading this thread ...

    He also told me that I should replace the standard tailpiece with a better one while I am at it. And he said the matching Golden Age tailpiece is a good replacement, being somewhat sturdier. It uses the same attachment screw holes as the standard one, but requires that the peg hole be filled, re-drilled, and tapered. He recommends just gluing a standard peg in and cutting it off to fill the hole. I have the correct taper jig, but am a bit too busy to do the work right now, so not sure if I will or not. Also, how do you get all the little shavings out once you do the drill and taper?
  23. FatBear
    FatBear
    Followup. I ended up buying an Allen AR-2 tailpiece. I chose that one on the recommendation of Randy Allen because the tailpiece mounting area on the mandolin seemed a bit flatter than the typical Gibson style instruments and he said the AR-2 was a bit flatter than his others and would also be the easiest to make even flatter yet if necessary.

    I installed it myself. This was easy because I already had a couple of important tools - the correct tapered reamer and one of those big wooden clamps. (Like these.)

    First bend the new tailpiece to the right configuration. I ordered a plain bronze one for two reasons: one, I love bronze and it looks so good with natural wood. And two, I didn't want the plating to crack or craze when I bent it. To bend it, clamp the triangular mounting part of the tailpiece, tighten the clamps to flatten it, and then bend the angle of the main part down a bit to accommodate the flat top of the Big Muddy. With that part done, you replace the old tailpiece with the new one. The screw holes in the body were too low and I needed to move them up a bit so the new tailpiece would clear the edge of the body. To do that, glue a toothpick into the old holes, slice it off with an Exacto knife, and drill new holes. Take your time and it will go fine.

    The hole for the strap pin had to be drifted upwards, too and this is where the reamer comes in. I bought an ebony strap pin from StewMac some time ago. When I pulled out the plastic pin in my mandolin, I found that it was of a much smaller diameter than the new ebony one. The reamer has one side without teeth which allows you to sort of grow the hole in one direction, so this worked out very well. I mounted the tailpiece and just reamed the hole upwards, checking frequently to make sure I didn't go too far. When I could almost push the pin all the way in I stopped and tapped it in the rest of the way.

    Job done. But I wouldn't try this without the reamer and either a wood clamp or a vise. And if you don't already have them, it's probably cheaper to have a luthier do it than to go buy them.
  24. FatBear
    FatBear
    BTW, as far as standards, I understand that there is a standard hole pattern. But if you have a non A5/F5 cloned mandolin there may be other issues that complicate things. If you look closely at the standard tailpiece on your Big Muddy you will see very faint creases where it was bent very slightly to fit. We have a flat head and the butt end of the instrument is also slightly flatter than an A5/F5 clone. It appears that Mike Dulak bends the tailpiece down a bit to give the correct string angle to the bridge. And he also mounts it a bit lower, too, so the tailpiece doesn't stick way up above the top of the mandolin body. (I think the difference is about 1/10" +/- some.)

    And I'm sure there are various conformations of aftermarket tailpieces which may require you to raise or to lower it in relation to the existing holes. Just remember that this is wood we are talking about, so all things are possible. Oh, and metal bends, as long as you don't try to bend it too far or too often.
  25. FatBear
    FatBear
    Last post, I promise! I uploaded two photos of my mandolin with the Allen tailpiece on it. Hopefully this will help give people an idea of the relative size of this tailpiece. I know I had a heck of a time figuring out what it would look like before I bought it!
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