Critiquin'

  1. Daijoki
    Daijoki
    I'm looking forward to jumping on board the song a week train. Can't wait to see what Weeks 11-20 bring.

    As I was browsing the tunes/videos/replies, I noticed a lot of back slapping (which is always appreciated!) but not a lot of detailed comments/critiques. As we launch into Round 2, I thought I'd raise the issue.

    A few thoughts:

    Sample questions that could be posted by the player:
    - What specific segment should I work on (and how so)?
    - How could I augment?
    - How's my timing (where, specifically does it lag)?

    Sample questions that could be posted by "audience":
    - At what speed are you playing?
    - How did you get that "reel" feel?
    - What chord that you're playing at the tail end of the intro of Part B?

    Thoughts?

    Scott
  2. Susanne
    Susanne
    Oh, I wouldn't like that. I'm already critiquing myself way too much, no need to hear others do it as well (still speaking about my own playing), I do this just for fun.
  3. Joe Nobiling
    Joe Nobiling
    What your asking is valid but, speaking for myself, it can be enough just to be able to record a good take, let alone learn a new piece of music within a weeks time.

    If one wants to be critiqued and asks for it, that's fine. I encourage that. Constructive criticism is always beneficial and I'm sure many are more than happy to share their knowledge and expertise but I think the individual needs to ask for constructive criticism in their posting.

    I'm always willing to answer questions asked, though some answers may take time or a bit of research in answering.
  4. Joe Nobiling
    Joe Nobiling
    I do agree with susiakasinead that I do this for fun, too. That was my original intent in joining this group plus the learning that takes place on a personal level for me by hearing other picker's versions and variations on their tunes, delving into their profiles, finding little jewels such as Old Sausage's Mandoliniana blog, MandoKatt's Old Time Mandolin Music website, seeing pics of their instruments and dreaming about when I grow up and have some nice instruments like they have (or just flat out drooling all over myself wishing I had a Pomeroy, Daley, Gilchrist, Gibson artist model, Collings, etc.)
  5. Daijoki
    Daijoki
    Joe wrote, "If one wants to be critiqued and asks for it, that's fine. I encourage that. Constructive criticism is always beneficial and I'm sure many are more than happy to share their knowledge and expertise but I think the individual needs to ask for constructive criticism in their posting."

    To clarify, this is exactly what I am suggesting... not unsolicited critique. If people want it, they can ask... but they need to know they can ask and get ideas on how to form questions that will elicit the detailed feedback they are looking for. I am recommended some above, for both the player and audience, that is meant to get that conversation going.

    My thought, too, is that people who do not want critique can still benefit from reading the questions and responses.

    Scott
  6. Ken_P
    Ken_P
    Personally, I would welcome that kind of feedback. I love getting positive responses as much as anybody, but I would welcome constructive criticism, too. I know it's not for everybody, but I'll welcome anyone who wants to critique my videos.
  7. Joe Nobiling
    Joe Nobiling
    Thanks for the clarification, Scott, and you're correct that people not wanting to be critiqued can still benefit from reading the questions and responses. I do.
  8. Susanne
    Susanne
    Actually, Scott, when I re-read your post, I realize that you only mention asking questions about how a player did this and that, nothing else. That is a good idea. But I guess it's good to raise the question about critique anyway, as it always will come up in contexts like these.

    Noone knows how much another player is aware of what they need to work on, and what their shortcomings are, so what right do we have to start telling them, unless they ask for it? Critique is good if someone wants it. But don't force it on everyone.

    To be able to ask questions about one's playing is a good thing, though. Just keep it at that level. I agree that we could benefit from reading questions and responses, I'm sure I would.
  9. OldSausage
    OldSausage
    My feeling is that although I can see the possible advantages, I can easily imagine scenarios that could make this a dangerous area to get into. For example, it's possible someone might offer a "critique" that is quite wrong, even with the very best of motives. Someone else might feel compelled to correct the misleading critique, and people's feelings could easily get hurt. My instinct is that it's better to rely on an actual teacher for this kind of feedback.
  10. Susanne
    Susanne
    Good input there, Sausage (sorry, don't know your name).
  11. Bernie Daniel
    Bernie Daniel
    Perhaps a better approach would be to keep critiques to PM's rather than something read by the entire group?

    I do think the OP had a laudable idea. In addition I knowthat we are all, always trying, to improve and to get to that "next level".

    BUT right now this format is working well and everyone is having a good time -- so my old standby philosophy is "if it ain't broke then don't.....

    But that is just me. Actually I would not mind getting critique but in my case it never seems to do much good -- I just don't ever improve very much and its for a variety of reasons but I'm OK with that!

    Analogy -- the older a river is the deeper the channels are and the harder it is to change the direction of flow..............
  12. OldSausage
    OldSausage
    My real name is David, but I'm quite happy to be called Sausage. And I agree with Bernie that PMs would probably be the best place for that kind of conversation.
  13. Joe Nobiling
    Joe Nobiling
    Okay, Bernie, are you a gov't employee? Naw, can't be, the acronyms aren't long enough! I've deciphered PM to mean Post Moderator? Correct me on that, please. But what is OP? (They need a smiley for loosing one's mind. )
  14. Daijoki
    Daijoki
    Like the PM approach! The video poster could say something to the effect of "PMs welcome regarding the following things: X, Y, Z."

    Examples:

    I'm working on cross picking the 8th notes. Do they sound as smooth as I am trying to make them? Do you hear the difference between the up/down strokes? Advise on smoothing out? PMs welcome!

    I feel like I'm making too much fret buzz when I jump from the 2nd to the 6th fret on the G string. Do you hear it or am I being too hard on myself. PMs welcome!
  15. Rando7
    Rando7
    OP = original post

    PM = private message

    And Bernie can't be a government employee since he said if it's not broke we shouldn't try to fix it.
  16. Susanne
    Susanne
    I think PM's are a good way to go as well. Sometimes (not the sample questions) it can be interesting and a learnin experience for others to read the conversation too, though, and using PM, we'll miss out on that.
  17. Mike Romkey
    Mike Romkey
    I admire your attitude, and your bravery, Scott! Funny, but I was talking to someone last night who is going to start posting, and they said they wished there was a pro or teacher in the group who could suggest ways to we could each improve our playing. The "I'm open to PMs" idea is probably the best idea.

    One of the interesting things about mandolin playing is there are so many distinctive styles, and what is "the right way to play" to one school is wrong to another. Monroe-style playing, a more fiddle-based Sizemore-style playing (which I think is the basis for some of the younger generation of pickers), Celtic playing -- they're all different. A Monroe player might tell you to slow down and do a lot more slides, while a Mike Marshall kind of player might tell you to speed up and articulate single notes more cleanly.

    Just as a general matter I would recommend a couple of things. One, take any critiques you get with a grain of salt. I'm an author in one of my lives, and I can't tell you how many well-meaning writing groups I've sat in on comprised of people who don't know what they're talking about giving other people bad advice.

    Another thought is that at some point we all need to decide what style of mandolin playing we're interested in and focus study there. I like jazz well enough, and I really enjoy Don Sternberg's playing and personality, but that's not the kind of playing I want to do. Playing like Monroe is different than playing like Thile (as if anybody could play like him), so the effort, and the advice you take, is drawn from different wells.

    Finally, I think the most important thing (this might be controversial, I don't know) is that you need to make these tunes your own and play to please yourself. Beyond pointers on timing, fingering and basic mechanical issues, the interpretation is up to you. That's what makes playing the mandolin different than studying classical violin. If you survey the "Salt Creek" postings, you might expect to hear pretty much the same thing played at varying levels of skill. But what you hear, in fact, are posts that are amazingly different.

    I've learned a ton from listening to my own iffy timing, tone, pick articulation, etc., just from having to endure watching my own videos. That's why this is such a great -- and cool -- aid to study. So, while other people can give you pointers, the best will be the ones you get from watching other people's posts, and your own, and listening to them all critically regarding what does and doesn't work.
  18. Barbara Shultz
    Barbara Shultz
    Good input, all! I hope that we can all continue to enjoy AND benefit from this social group! I think that a good way to do it is, when you post your video, if you WANT some critiquing, suggestions, input, etc. please say so in your post! And, if you are going to give someone some suggestions, etc., please choose your words carefully! Imagine that we are all sitting around in someone's living room, and use your best manners!
  19. billkilpatrick
    a lot of critiquing is done on the message board through questions like "how do i get such-and such a tone?" or "what's the best way to hold a pick?" etc., etc.. asking to have your video critiqued is a tricky one ... what happens if no one responds? PM would be good - if asked for. unsolicited constructive criticism might work if we get to know each other better and you're big enough to overlook the fact that i support (small "s") the new york yankees.
  20. Joe Nobiling
    Joe Nobiling
    Mike talks with a lot of sense. I particularly like when he states, "...you need to make these tunes your own and play to please yourself." If we go back to the goodle days, when folks got together on a weekend night, played music, danced, ate, told stories, drank, slept, woke up, and started all over again...I doubt there was much critiquing going on. Mostly what was happenin' was shakin' off the stresses and the load from the work week.

    I echo Barb's feelings that "I hope that we can all continue to enjoy AND benefit from this social group!" It is the fun of it all that it should and is about.

    No two people are ever going to play exactly alike whether it be the tune, technique, etc. We're all too different. That's what makes interacting with each other such a kick and sometimes it's a pain but it's all worthwhile.

    Once heard it said that there's only one rule in folk music and that is that there are no rules. (not sure that fits this conversation but sure seems like it.)
  21. Barbara Shultz
    Barbara Shultz
    If we go back and look at the original post, and the suggested 'questions'.... they weren't really critiquing, at all, they were reasonable questions. When you post your own videos, if there are things you'd like to know about your video, and you are thick-skinned enough to hear the replies.... please do ask! The sample questions posed by the audience.... those were innocuous enough.... they were questions, more than critiques.... and very reasonable! Another idea, is rather than critiquing videos within the videos... if you have a question (or something you'd like to share) about technique, style, etc., post it as a discussion of it's own. While there are many styles & techniques, it could be very handy to actually discuss, and video the questions, and answers, for some things. Like that old debate.... pick direction for jigs, just what is the power grip on the pick..... how you do that triplet thing.... chop chords, practice tips, playing with a metronome... As long as we keep an open mind, and use the approach of 'this is how I do it' rather than 'this is the only way to do it and if you do it differently, you are wrong'.... we can continue to use this group for fun and learning!

    We are all here to learn, and have fun. For those of us who have taken the plunge and actually video ourselves, and submit them for the rest to see (if you note, we have a HUGE membership now, but really only a handful of video submitters), WE know that we can play better than we do on these videos.... for those who have never tried it.... go ahead... it's VERY humbling!

    I do realize that there are many who don't have a video camera (although nowadays, most digital cameras have a video camera built in!) And, I'm sure that many of you are learning right along with the rest of us, even if you aren't videoing yourselves.

    Most of all, let's have fun!
  22. Jill McAuley
    Jill McAuley
    I'm all about this being fun and encouraging for folks to play and contribute. Looking back at old threads folks do ask for tips on timing, techniques, pick grip etc. And we also get to see everyone's videos to get ideas for the feel of a tune etc and more importantly to see all the different approaches to it. I think if this became a venue for "critique" we'd get alot less people posting. I favour the approach of folks either asking for tips if they want to or sending someone a PM asking for tips or even a critique.
  23. Eddie Sheehy
    I'm ONLY in this for fun. It's tough to get a "clean" recording. Everybody's a critic....just waiting to be asked.... I ain't askin'.
  24. Bernie Daniel
    Bernie Daniel
    Joe and Rando 7 -- you may find this ironic but I have been a research scientist for for the federal government -- 35 years!

    Will be retiring this year.

    I take your point about fixing what is not broke -- notice I did not say I always agree with my employer on every point
  25. Daijoki
    Daijoki
    Good points raised... guess it gets at the heart of why we come to the forum, choose to post, choose to respond, and in this case, choose to participate and or lurk in this group.

    I used to post my guitar vids on YouTube but stopped. I gained from filming (it FORCED ;-) me to get it right one time through) but it felt a little like a black hole vs. a community. In considering starting back up again and joining this group, my education background/philosopher kicked in ;-) Yes, I'm a teacher, so I often have to set up environments where people can take part in collaborative learning.

    Speaking as one who will ask for feedback and speaking to those who are considering it, I am thinking about the "living room" image mentioned earlier in this thread. We all likely spend more time playing to our walls than to other people. And we probably all realize that a lot of learning can happen when you play with (not to) people. If the learning that one is here for, there is , I believe, a benefit to the classroom discussion (think "Tennis") vs. the talent show metaphor (where people just clap... think "Bowling"). Sure, there is the occasional #$% that abuses the forum. Overall, however, everyone leaves having learned something that they might not have had it been a more static environment.
  26. Barbara Shultz
    Barbara Shultz
    I think we are doing a pretty decent job here, in this social group, and that if we consider ourselves friends, can continue. There is a world of difference in "That was nice, but your tempo was off" or "That would be good, if you had only used the right pick direction", and "I liked how you played part B, it's a lot different than I learned it" and "Interesting technique you used, can you explain how you do that?"

    Again, this is a social group, and I'm having so much fun, watching and listening to everyone's videos, participating in discussions... let's just keep it fun and friendly!
  27. Eddie Sheehy
    "(think "Tennis") vs. the talent show metaphor (where people just clap... think "Bowling")"

    I don't think I know those tunes.....
  28. Joe Nobiling
    Joe Nobiling
    Congrats to you, Bernie. You deserve the retirement. 35 years, whew!
  29. Eddie Sheehy
    When's the party Bernie?
  30. Susanne
    Susanne
    I think you have very good points there, Barbara. I'd love to see that kind of conversation about the vids, that everyone could learn from. Perfect examples you are bringing up there.
  31. SweetTea
    SweetTea
    Its been a few weeks since I have posted a video recording due to my crazy work schedule but I plan on getting "back to the game" sometime this week. These are some very good comments concerning to feedback or not. I consider myself a life long learner and a master at nothing. I love getting feedback but I would not be comfortable giving it. I can understand the reluctance in giving advice in fear of hurt someones feelings but at the same time I had formed a bad habit with my hand position and did not realize it until it was pointed out to me. (See Cupid's Waltz). It is hard to know how people will react to feedback but I think the key is the spirit in which it is given and the spirit in which it is taken. I am very comfortable with it but I am sure many are not. The original reason I joined this site was to see others play the same song differently so I might learn new ways of playing (passive learning) and this site is rich with that type of content. So we are all learning if its by feedback or example. I am enjoying both modes of learning. I think the best thing to do is to lean toward the side of fun or what really is the point. Now if I could just play that darn mandolin I might really have some fun.
  32. Barbara Shultz
    Barbara Shultz
    Welcome back SweetTea! I was looking at the membership, and realized we hadn't heard from you in a while! Looking forward to some videos!
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