Personally, after 3 takes of a video, I'm sick of the tune and ready to throw the mando over the fence. I just can't imagine doing more, and admittedly it shows in my submissions and I apologize. Yet I read some posters doing double digit takes and that boggles my mind. (Sore ears and a boggled mind is a terrible combo). I would think that your initial enthusiasm for a tune would have to be muted after say 4 or 5 takes. Kudos to all that do many takes, but how do you keep the fire going? ps is a clam really different than a flub or oopsie?
I do as many takes is it takes to satisfy me. Sometimes up to 30 or 35. As for getting sick of the tune... Heck yeah! As soon as I get it recorded the way I want, I never want to hear it again! That's not entirely true, because I do want to hear y'alls renditions. I have a feeling this is gonna be an interesting thread! Chris
I also do as many takes as I need to to make it sound good.. or at least good enough. It drives me crazy and I like Sore Ears feel like throwing the mandolin over the fence.. but it was too expensive to do that . On keeping the fire going.. at least you'll remember the tune afterwards!!!
I imagine we all play many of these tunes dozens or even hundreds of times before turning the camera on anyway (don't we?). Having said that, I don't like doing it more than four or five times with the camera turned on, since I find it becomes stressful fiddling with the technology after a while. There comes a point where, if it's not working, I will realize that it's annoying me, and I think you can hear the annoyance in the performance. That's a good time to stop and come back to it another day, although it's not always practical to do that. But if I feel I have to get the tune out that day, what I try to do is think about how friendly people are here, hope they don't mind watching me make a mistake, and hope they will forgive it with understanding. Which they seem to do
The one thing about this group is it is, or should be, a learning experience and, I admit, as much as I want to make a perfect, no flaws, flubs, clams, mistakes, etc., recording, it's in my best interest for my sanity that I accept a few mistakes and let them go as I am in a learning mode. Eddie Sheehy calls it "Puttin' down a marker." It marks a learning point. I've encouraged students to record themselves when working on a tune or technique to record themselves during week one, week four, week eight, etc., so they can see their progress. I encourage you, Sore Ears, to lay it down and let it go as you'll get better at the tune and because you're the student and player that you are, I have faith that you'll see progress down the road. 4 or 5 takes is about all i care to do, too. I don't have the time for 30 or 35 takes but Chris'll get better at gettin' fewer takes before he's happy with a recording as he shows very good technique in his submissions as it's just a matter of time, as I believe it is with all of us. I agree with OS that too many attempts is stressful, frustrating, and generally, unproductive and will try it another day. If any of us folks here aren't forgiving, then we've forgotten where we've been and how we got to where we are now.
If, by a stroke of extreme luck, I managed a clean take I'd never again be satisfied with a flubbed one and I'd find more than 5 retries a real chore. Chore=no-fun=drudgery=new hobby... I can see improvements with each recording - and I can actually play the tunes at speed and reasonably cleanly without recording - so it's the recording I'm working on as well as the tune. I can play ALL of the tunes I've recorded much better now (even Squirrel Hunters, and that drove me to drink) ... but it would be hit-and-miss to produce a clean recording of them. I post the tunes I'm working on to see other's rendition that I can learn and borrow from. Joe is great at "giving away secrets"... Besides, if you wait until it's perfect, there's really no point in posting it here at all... put it on your CD.
I'm glad to see others lose patience with tunes as well. You would never know it to see all the polished videos. Do any of you adjust when you are having difficulty? Such as dumbing the tune down or slowing down? Yes, Eddie, the Fun/ Work dichotomy is basically it. My threshold for number of takes seems to be a bit lower than average. And Chris, 30 takes? Man, you're going to wear a groove in that floor, walking to the "playing chair" and back.
Yes, if I feel I'm not going to be able to get my more ambitious ideas ready for the cameras in time, I will often simplify what I originally hoped to do, or slow it down if speed is a problem. Where I'm doing an improvised section, I tend not to go too far out on a limb while I'm videoing it, although I also use these tunes as a way to try to loosen up my improvisation under pressure.
I have often started out to play one tune and gotten into such a bind with it that I'll just record something else and then go back, dragging my feet, cursing, drinking, as reluctant as a dog to his vomit... but you get the idea....
Do you find any one drink helps you out better than another, Eddie? If so, what might that be? I'm needin' a little inspiration here...last night Molsun Ice worked pretty well, unfortunately, I wasn't working on recording but just listening to what I'd recorded, finding one of the two or three (or 5 or 6...I've forgotten now) I could live with, and posting.
Personally I find there is no substitute for a robust single malt. Caol Ila is particularly effective at ending all worries about mistakes.
Caol Ila, eh? Haven't seen that up here...have to look closer the next time I'm in the liquor department at our local grocery...maybe Schnucks has it instead of Hy-Vee. Definitely play the tunes at least dozens of times before turning on the camera...though that's usually with the tunes already fairly well known and played.
Seeing from my past few submissions, I wish I would have taken more time to really get the tune down but the reality of being a new father doesn't always allow for such wishes Watching my videos, though, has really given me a sense of my picking which isn't that great but I'm always my worst critic, for sure! But I sure am better than I was 1 year ago, especially now that I'm making getting better at mandolin a priority, sacrificing time from other passions. I will say that I did 6-7 takes for Angeline The Baker and just found that I was getting too frustrated from my constant flubs, imprecise timing, random licks, that don't fit well in the song, outside confounding variables, etc. Obviously I wasn't happy with any of my takes as I haven't posted it on the Angeline thread. I still haven't gotten in front of the video camera to get a better version yet. No time yet! I've also found that if I have the tune pretty down (in my mind) then I usually do best in the first or second take and then it starts going downhill from there. Anybody else experience the same thing? What I think would be fun is maybe on the next song-a-week tune (might be Southern Flavor) maybe all of us should post our first video take and then post the video take we were most happy with. Either that, or just post our worst and best take. It might even be kinda funny (though the Big Mon might think otherwise!). I think that might take a little pressure off all of us. Not that this is a place pressuring us to only post our best, obviously, but I know I'm not the only one that first experienced nervousness when first playing in front of a video camera (or still experiences nervousness during the recording process--I've almost gotten over mine). It could just show a little more insight from our lowest playing points to our best playing points. What do you all think? Maybe it's a silly idea...I don't know! There's 190 members of the group now but I would say only 30+ individuals max have posted videos of them picking in the group(not that there's anything wrong with that!! It's cool!). People get a lot from just watching others play a tune (I know I do!)and maybe that's what the majority of the members of this list are do on this group? Or they don't have video access, are shy, don't have a mandolin (improbable?), not enough time to participate, and other reasons which I can't think of right now. All of those are fine reasons, too. Could a big reason be that people don't post their videos and lurk more because they have too many flubs in their videos and feel they need a better take first before posting? Then time slips by and you don't get around to recording a better one. I know I've done this a bit.... just wondering. I must also state that in no way am I unhappy with the participation of people on this group (obviously the most active social group on Mcafe) but just wondering why so few participate and if it relates to maybe making too many flubs in their videos while recording them, or if it's for one or the other reasons state above or other reasons I couldn't think of. Old Sausage, I've never seen any frustration in any of your videos and have enjoyed every one immensely. Thanks! Chris Travers: enjoy being 17 while you can. I'm envious of your ability to do double-digit takes! Doing so many takes definitely shows your devotion and love to the instrument and your quest for good technique and tone no doubt! Awesome! Ok...gonna stop typing now! My fingers are getting sore! Time to really start working Bill Cheatham since I voted for it like twice! Peas all!
Thanks Rob. On the subject of the number of people involved, although there are all these "members", I suspect more than half of them don't really follow the group that carefully, or only visit very occasionally. The average "song of the week" video on YouTube only gets about 70 or so views, so I think that's closer to the number of regulars. I can imagine many and varied reasons why people wouldn't want to post, so in some ways perhaps it's more surprising how many actually do. As far as posting "first takes", it would be fun to see for those who are up to the challenge, although probably some people would find it daunting, or just too much effort to post two videos. Sometimes it's just embarrassing These things stay on your YouTube channel and anyone can see them, now and in the future. But I'll certainly think about giving it a try one week.
Sore Ears, yes, yes, if I can't manage to play the tune I dumb it down, as you said, I remove some difficult parts (that's exactly what I did with Bill Cheatham's B part). Interesting idea about posting the first take. I would probably find it embarrassing, but it depends on how the other people's first takes are like... I get intimidated so easily if I'm the only one on a basic level. Anyway, it would be interesting to see how it'd turn out. I actually don't like to have my "beginner's" videos on You Tube, so i decided to put them on vimeo now when we can embed from Vimeo, and save my You Tube account for my best videos. Too many weirdos and mafia guys on You Tube and my self confidence is already too low to also have to risk to receive nasty comments (I don't want to inactivate commenting because I get some from friends) about my playing. Wow, Southern flavor...that's a lovely tune. I'll probably have to jump that one. Just not able to learn such tunes in a week well enough to even dream of posting it. Oh well.
It's funny, I don't mind doing first-takes for you guys and gals. Even though they are on Youtube it doesn't bother me 'cos I never go there except to post or to watch other's vids. I just pretend my vids only appear here amongst friends. I have received comments from Youtube guys - I get emails telling me their comments - but they have ALL been positive... My last first-take was Kentucky Waltz and I just smiled and chuckled when I flubbed and I got some of my best comments on that one (thank's Sore Ears). Carpe Diem!
I'll give the first vid and best vid a shot next week. That'll be interesting as I don't know any of what's left on the list, at least not that I can remember from what's left on the list.
I do as many takes as necessary to reduce my expectations of what an acceptable take should be. In other words I get to a point where I say: "Ah screw it. That's good enough." I probably average 10-30 takes per video. I should try the single malt I would probably get to the "Ah screw it." sooner. I would do the first take video if I could figure out how to delete the expletives.
Yeah, the expletives always get in the way, don't they, David?!?!?
Like Old Sausage said, I reckon a fair amount of folks who don't post also don't check in regularly. If you look at the activity on some of the other groups they're nowhere near as active as this one is, janey mack, there's even some groups that haven't got a single post yet, so it's fairly hopping around here, even with the amount of "non-posters" we have.
If there is a recording without a mistake, it was probably played by a robot. Your mistakes are the one thing you make a difference with, because nobody else will ever be able to do those mistakes like you do. When I start recording I am aware that I am going to screw it up one way or the other. If the first take is just barely acceptable, I keep it as a fallback and try a second one, and so on. Normally, after 4 to 6 takes, I call it a day, browse through what I've got and choose the least terrible one for posting. This is good for learning to play a tune robustly under hostile conditions, such as when there are persons in the audience who hate you (I can sense hostile moods in my audience, and it is likely to derail me if I haven't got the tune really deep-down). As for single malt - I always gladly take a glass of Laphroaig after recording, not before (or else I'd have to be afraid of watching my own videos sober). Who said that - Drinking is Holidays inside Your Head? I'll say Playing Music is Holidays inside Your Heart. Bertram
I have so many flubs on my first take you can't recognize the tune, but I use technology to help me cheat. Since I know I can cut out all but my favorite take, I just leave the camera rolling, count to 10 (to get a good easy to recognize break in the video) and try again. After awhile I start ignoring the camera and relax into a good take. Then I pull it all into Windows Movie maker and delete all the bad takes that led up to the good one.
"Playing Music is Holidays inside Your Heart." Well put, Bert!
I don't know, I don't usually work that hard on my holidays
Looks like my head and heart are on permanent vacation...
I read another interesting name for what I call oopsies and others call flubs or clams - "unmellifluous ornamentation". i liked that
Thanks for this thread - nice to hear that it's a common experience! I actually really enjoyed the Whiskey Before Breakfast thread, because it specifically called for a 'first take' version (with whiskey, of course, that didn't hurt), warts and all. I like the idea of 'first take' plus 'favorite take' - maybe I'll try for that next time I post. Nice discussion.
I'm lookin' forward to the next time you post, GTG. "unmellifluous ornamentation" - it is a good description.
I have to add that I find myself "under pressure" - all of it self-imposed - to produce at least a first-take so that you guys won't think I'm not interested in certain types of music. I've seen posts that talk about "BG" guys and the "ITM" guys and the "OTHER" guys as if we all live in little boxes - Little Boxes - remember that tune? - I WANT to learn as many tunes as I can before I die... Some tunes take longer than others to learn - For me, ITM and Swedish tunes roll right off the fingers. Slow tunes - like Waltzes and Ballads - are a snatch. Fast dance tunes require a lot of work on my part, but BG and some Old-Time fiddle tunes have melodies that are alien to my ear and require really hard-work and practice to play them, albeit it sloooowly and cacophonously/cacophonically. If I ever post a vid without flubs or "unmellifluous ornamentation" it means that I know that tune from birth and already played it a thousand times. If it's a tune I'm learning, prepare yourself for some pain. Your pain is my gain. I spend a week or two learning a particular tune - in this last case it was the Chilly Winds of Shannon - and then I set aside a recording time and play about 3 or 4 songs around the "chosen one". The other songs are usually ones I've being learning at the same time - I need to flip between songs as I practice or I go insane. So I do about 3 or 4 songs in a two-week time-frame and usually post way too soon, but sometimes you have to fish or get off the pot - to mix a few metaphors. I'm blown away by the Big Mon tunes. I'd never even heard of him a year ago, and this is my first exposure to his music. You guys are a true inspiration and I will certainly try to reach that bar someday, but in the meantime I'll be L'Escargot the Tardy... Keep 'em comin'...
Been so long since I've chimed in..... none of my submissions have been perfect... some I luck out and it only takes a few takes before I get one that I've got one that isn't TOO embarrassing! I play IT, and old time fiddle tunes, so even if they aren't ones I know, those aren't too hard to get one slowish and decent. The BG tunes... well, I end up playing them very non-bluegrassy... and I haven't even attempted to try the last week's tune, since I'm out-of-pocket!
Hey, if you make a mistake, play it twice then they'll think you did it on purpose!
