Members ~ I need your input regarding the polls

Ok guys, here's the deal, as I see it.

We are still an active group, with a handful of members who are quite regular in submitting videos of them playing tunes. We also have more active members who contribute by posting, commenting, etc. I'm certain we have a huge following of members who just enjoy, and learn from, those posts and videos. Mostly silently.

So, while I feel we have an active membership, I feel the interest in the poll part of our group, has waned to the point of there really being no point in it.

I feel it is time to drop having the (now monthly) polls, and have our group just be for people to submit what has been called "other tunes" and discussions about tunes (those discussions that I put in the table of contents ~ discussions.

There was the suggestion last month to stir interest and participation in our group, with the "theme tour", but that didn't seem to go anywhere.

Therefore, I am not going to post a new poll. I will continue to monitor this group, and keep the table of contents updated (probably monthly).

I am open to your your input on this, and will certainly do what the members want, but our activity seems to be on "other tunes" and not "official tunes". There were only 3 people who voted in this month's tune.

I would say that the biggest difference, usually, in "official tunes" and "other tunes", is that with the official tunes, if there is participation, there are submissions by more than one person, and on the "other tunes", people seem to be more inclined to just comment on the original posters submission, rather than submitting their video of that tune in the discussion.

I don't really care, one way or another. It could be that people watching/reading the original posters discussion, don't want to 'intrude' on their discussion, out of respect.

I will continue to maintain the table of contents with clickable links to the discussions. If we have multiple submissions (discussions) for the same tune, then each discussion will appear in the table of contents, and those that search the group, will find all the different discussions of the same tune.

I am going to update the description of our group to indicate that the polls are on hold for now.

I think you are quite right in your analysis of the Official Tune Polls, Barbara. For a long time now the votes have generally been in the single figures, with odd months rising to double figures. I have quite often not voted as I did not know the tunes on offer, and I was aware that the current one, Lament for Abercairney, attracted only three votes with the other two candidates registering none. Furthermore, as soon as the poll result was posted and Martin Jonas and I uploaded our versions, there was an old thread revived and reposted of this same tune, and I saw that I had posted there too, several years ago. We have so many tunes in the database now that folk have more than enough to work through and produce their own versions.

I think it is a good idea to suspend the poll for the present time - it was not attracting many votes even before the dreaded Covid struck, and it takes up a great deal of your time. The SAW Group seems to be in a healthy state at present and as you point out, we have a hard core of regular participants and probably very many more who just lurk and get some enjoyment from visiting the group. You may even find some more time now to get back to posting your own offerings - I remember when you did this fairly regularly.

Thanks again for your continuing interest and support - the SAW Group owes you so much.

I'd say let's try this without the polls and revive them if that doesn't work out.

As someone who hasn't been here from the start, I don't know whether the intention ever was to cover literally a different tune every week, compare notes on them, and then move on to the next one. I do know that some of the old hands easily had the musical ability to achieve that. Before I joined, I believed that this was a group just for experts.

The experience of the past several years suggests that it's rare for a single tune to gather that momentum. It takes me, and probably many others, much longer than a week to learn a tune, let alone record it. It's brilliant when several members post their own versions of a tune, but this usually develops over a longer period. I don't get the impression that this has happened any more often for the tune chosen by poll than for "other" tunes.

The other issue is the unfamiliarity of tunes in the poll, as John says. There are plenty of tunes left to play, but perhaps the poll was more meaningful when it was populated by tunes that many members knew. My usual experience with the poll is that I don't know any of the tunes. And since the poll doesn't include a recording, researching these tunes is an extra step that I usually don't take although I have done occasionally. "Other" tunes are at an advantage here because they invariably start with someone posting a recording.

Barbara wrote: "on the "other tunes", people seem to be more inclined to just comment on the original posters submission, rather than submitting their video of that tune in the discussion."

Yeah I've noticed that.

Barbara wrote: "It could be that people watching/reading the original posters discussion, don't want to 'intrude' on their discussion, out of respect."

Ah. That might be the reason then. I've often wondered what was going on with that.

And I suspect that sometimes it might just be that people aren't sure where to obtain suitable free sheetmusic/tabs, which is one of many useful tools to have available to help learn stuff. (Yes, yes, I know, learning by ear is essential too, but seeing a basic outline of the notes on paper/screen can work together with ear learning.)

Myself, on the rare occasions when I start a thread about some particular tune I'm playing, I would be delighted to see other people's versions posted in that thread, even if those versions are a lot different than mine.

In my view at least, one of the things that makes music fun and a worthwhile endeavor, is that there is so much room for variety and interpretation and re-imagining things in different ways. It's not like just having one version that everyone has to play.

When I started with music, of course I worked hard at copying my various mentors' playing note-for-note as exactly as I was able to at the time, to try to make it sound exactly like theirs. I did that for more years than I care to admit to, but I did eventually learn more about what made their playing sound the way it did and I was able to (sometimes) duplicate what other people had already done. So, but then what? I didn't know what to do after that. I did a little bit of original(ish) stuff but not really a whole lot, it was more about playing in the style that I'd learned rather than deviating from that. Then I didn't play music at all for many years, and when I came back to it I found myself gravitating towards stuff I *hadn't* tried before - still fiddle-tunes melodies but with different (more modern) accompaniment styles.

I think it's always interesting to hear many different versions and interpretations of a particular tune.

This MandolinCafe group provides a friendly venue for posting all sorts of musical/artistic creations, without too much risk of getting shot down or scolded for "you're playing it wrong" or other silly anti-music concepts. Music is art, which (IMO) means it's neither "right" nor "wrong", rather the whole point of creating music in the first place is either to express something and/or to bring joy to others (and oneself). Lots of different musical approaches to achieving that.

Barbara wrote: "I feel it is time to drop having the (now monthly) polls, and have our group just be for people to submit what has been called "other tunes" and discussions about tunes"

Seems reasonable.

I also agree that suspending the polls is a good idea - it's not like the decision can't be reversed later on if so desired, so no harm in it, right? Perhaps as far as going forward with "other" tunes being posted the OP's can make it clear that other folks can feel free to post their own versions on the thread, that way no one would feel like they're gate crashing the OP's thread.

A good point, Jill. Maybe we should include the notation too if that is available? I know I do not regularly put up notation for the tunes I post, usually to respect the copyright of the original composer.

Me too, I agree to suspend the votes, I’m not sure why we ever had a voting system. There’s probably a discussion on it buried away somewhere.

As to copyright I’m a bit of an archivist. I really like to have as much information (whether we like it or not) saved for posterity.
I think it’s nice also, to order the information so that people can find and make use of it.
Chaotic organisation can be discouraging and distracting for beginners who already have plenty to focus on.

As to the rights of the singer/songwriter, I don’t know. There are strong arguments in favour of worker’s rights. Professionnalisation and all that.
And then there’s the idea that people who write a tune that becomes popular (especially for commercial reasons) are in competition with ‘The Tradition’.

What if all tunes had to be bought?

Food for thought.

I still like the concept of having a "set" tune, but am not fussed about voting for it. The attraction is to try something new, and possibly outside the comfort zone, and to compare how different members approach this.

The latter is I think central to the purpose of this group. When I post an "other tune", I actively welcome other group members to post their own version which is also why whenever possible I post a link to the transcription or arrangement I have used. It's a completely different level of engagement from posting a brief comment.

To enable comparison and cross pollination, I tend to post cross links to previous threads for the same tune and/or to my own recordings (whether new or old) when a new "other tune" recording is posted, as encouraged in Barbara's "mission statement" from the outset. That's why we have an index of "other tunes" and why Barbara has kept up the much-appreciated effort of updating that index for so many years now. There are various reasons why sometimes a new thread for an existing tune is started (alternative tune names/spellings, posting sets with multiple tunes, difficulty searching etc), but where possible we should try post to the old thread, if one exists, or least cross-link these duplicates to the old threads if a new thread was accidentally started.

However I have also noticed that there has sometimes been a bit of tension on that point recently, with a sense of intruding on somebody else's patch, so it's helpful to have this discussion now rather than risking crossed wires or offence.

Martin

Seems reasonable and the way it's been heading anyway, Barbara. Let's try it out.

Interesting point Jill makes - I thought that all submissions were free to add versions to. Me myself, I love to hear how others interpret a tune. It's so good for shaking up preconceptions. Seems like making it overt is probably a good idea. And as John says, adding notation is a nice courtesy as well.

Long live the other tunes!

Yeah, I would always have assumed that other submissions have been free to add versions to, but thinking forwards to any new folks joining the group it might be helpful to specifically clarify that for them.

Thanks for the input, ya'll!

I had edited the description of our group, when I changed it up. I thought the wording indicated that it was encouraged to comment on, and add videos to existing discussions AND also, if the tune doesn't have a discussion, to start a new one with the video. I'm open to suggestions on making that clearer! I'm limited on how many words I can have in the description! One thing that I'd like to suggest (and I think I have it in "new to the group-read me first" post, is to look through the table of contents to see if a song has a discussion, and add to it, rather than starting a new one. That way they are all together. Here's how it reads now:

Welcome! For over 10 years, we had a poll, and an Official Tune. These polls are on hold for now. Please browse through the three Table of Contents, & learn, comment on, or submit your video, regardless of when it was originally posted.

While there will not be any new "official tunes", we still welcome new tune submissions! If you've got a favorite tune, please submit it, with the name of the tune as the subject of a new discussion.

We also welcome general discussion posts!

Start by finding & reading the post "New to Our Social Group? ~ Read Me First!"

We have three 'TABLE of CONTENTS' discussions with links to the discussions.

I tweaked the intro wording a bit. Hope it's clearer!

Welcome! For over 10 years, we had a poll, and an Official Tune. These polls are on hold for now. Please browse through the tune discussions in the three Table of Contents, & learn, comment on, or submit your video in the discussion, regardless of when it was originally posted.

While there will not be any new "official tunes", we still welcome new tune submissions! If you've got a favorite tune that doesn't already have a discussion, please submit it, with the name of the tune as the subject of a new discussion.

We also welcome general discussion posts!

Start by finding & reading the post "New to Our Social Group? ~ Read Me First!"

We have three 'TABLE of CONTENTS' discussions with links to the discussions.

It's now about 20 months that the group has been running in its new format, without the polls. Obviously, change is constant, and causality can't be demonstrated. But I think it may be time to take stock of recent developments and reflect on how the free format is working out. To be clear: I'm not arguing in favour of reverting to the old format. But my impression is that there are things worth thinking about.

To start with some really big positives: The group is still running and going strong after very nearly 15 years. As of today, there are over 1,600 subscribers and over 3,750 threads. This longevity, size, and activity must be unique. There are several long-standing members who obviously really care about this group and still enjoy participating and welcoming new members. It's a matter of judgement to some extent, but I still don't believe we ever had the problem of lack of interest or activity that other groups have experienced. We are nowhere near running out of tunes.

But the considerable number of threads seems to be concentrated on a small proportion of the membership. 555 threads have been created or updated in the past year. As has always been the case with what used to be called "other tunes", some of them have few replies or none, and many don't attract a second or third recording. The most recent 100 threads, covering about 2 months' worth of activity, have been started by (roughly counted) perhaps a dozen people. I won't dive into these threads to collect data about replies, but my impression is that these replies are largely by the same people and perhaps another dozen or so who don't record often but take part in the discussions quite regularly.

There's obviously nothing wrong and everything right with recording and posting a lot - it's what keeps the group going. But this pattern of many threads, few participants and few replies raises some questions for me. These are not rhetorical questions, but things I wanted to raise for reflection and discussion:

First, what's the difference now between this group and the "Post a video of yourself" thread on the main forum?

Second, are we attractive to new members? I remember I joined this group when Bertram told me that one of my favourite tunes was song-of-the-week and invited me to have a look. Now, with the new format, newcomers just see a list of largely equivalent "other" tunes. Is this enough buzz and incentive to encourage new people to join in?

Third, are we inclusive enough? Among the current regulars, we seem to have an unusually high level of homogeneity in terms of gender, skin colour and, to a lesser extent, age. We definitely used to have more women posting recordings and comments. I know we're all nice people, but is it possible that an unintentional impression of exclusion is being created?

Fourth, might there be a way to make the plethora of threads more manageable and less overwhelming for newcomers and infrequent visitors? The tables of content are obviously useful, but is there something else we can do?

Fifth, is it possible to encourage more activity within threads? I think most of us agree that it's nice when we can enjoy different versions of the same tune and an insightful discussion about them. With the song-a-week format, this was built in. With the free-form format, it isn't.

Sixth, a closely related question: What do people want when they post a recording here? To what extent is it a matter of sharing tunes, documenting progress, wanting encouragement, asking for feedback and possible improvements, seeking connection and discussion? Again, I feel that the loss of the song-a-week structure may now require us to spell out things that previously didn't need spelling out.

I hope this is useful in some way.

"the difference now between this group and the "Post a video of yourself" thread on the main forum"

I see it like the difference between a pub session and solo outdoor busking. One is a symmetric exchange among people who played together before, inviting discussion on tunes and instruments. The other is a broadcast to a wider audience with a virtual "hat" to be filled with thank-you clicks.

"are we inclusive enough"

Like in a pub session, there is a certain skill level that settled over years, and newcomers may be intimidated if they assume (correctly or wrongly) that the bar is too high for them, or if they are so professional that they stand out like bears in a crowd of groundhogs. Inclusion depends on the friendliness of the resident people - I have been to sessions so chilling that I felt the need of a furcoat, but nothing like that was ever seen here on the SAW group.

That's a very apt metaphor, Bertram. It makes a lot of sense.

Bring back the polls.

Three tune choices every month.
The three tunes from three genres get pinned at the top of the list.
You can record all three if you like.
At the end of the month the tunes sail happily off down the listing and are replaced by another three.


More BLUEGRASS! (with TAB and links to instruction vids if necessary).
And every month one of the tunes is specifically: female/other/foreign/beginner/youth-pop-song/Taylor Swift themed.
-Yes TS does have some interesting melodies?

Below the favoured tunes is our usual thread, so there’s actually not a lot of change - except that we can have reasonable discussions about the SAW tunes, and we include lots of interesting historical information (on those favoured tunes).

How to do the polls? Personally- let someone else choose, as long as the titles are reasonably random. And make SAW more visible.

I love the organic music idea Bertram. It runs with the fake debate.

Interesting points, Dennis, and certainly worth some thought. As a long-time member of the group (joined in October 2009) and still a fairly regular poster and responder I have often thought about who posts here and why they do. We have a very small band of regulars - the 1600+ "subscribers" seems an irrelevant number as the vast majority of those have no visible connection with the group nor do they offer any feedback. As you point out, the group is almost exclusively male but has been for a long time. As for age demographic, I reckon I am possibly the oldest of the group (I will be 80 on my next birthday), but I imagine that others are possibly into or approaching their middle years?

Many, too , have possibly come to the mandolin later and are just enjoying the fun of seeing improvement in their playing and posting their efforts to what is a very safe, friendly and welcoming group. The comments from our fellow players/posters are always encouraging and positive, even if at times it is hard to keep up with the sheer volume of offerings from some individuals. Maybe we have become a rather self-satisfied bunch, posting and responding, and feeling the need to comment on someone's latest post because in turn they will probably comment on ours?

I think too that almost all the regular posters are lone or solo players - the "solo outdoor buskers" that Bertram refers to in his reply above. Again, I may be well off the mark here. We post videos of ourselves in splendid isolation, whether outdoors or in a room in our homes and there is no real feeling of involvement of others, of playing along with live musicians. I am very lucky (and possibly the odd one out?) in that I get very regular playing experience with three different groups of players and two regular sessions, so I have access to what Bertram refers to as the pub session atmosphere. I get to play to real, live audiences and I would say that nothing beats this. I am actually heading out this evening for a practice with one of the groups (six of us) as we have a wee gig in a couple of weeks. Perhaps we regulars are just seeking an audience online as a substitute? I also rarely video myself but prefer to "make videos" showing off the beauty of my homeland and also this gives me the incentive to go out with my camera, another of my pastimes. Often when I am watching a video in the SAW Group I wonder if the player is actually enjoying the experience as there is little or no contact with the audience through the camera. I know it is hard to offer a smile or look into the lens if you are following a score, but that connection with the listener is important - again, something I am very aware of when playing live.

I really do not think that there is any point in bringing back the named tune idea - it was getting votes in single figures most of the time. It had the virtue, perhaps, of eliciting responses and in some cases there would be a good run on particular tunes which caught the fancy. We still see some of those oldies being revisited. The group is what it is, and will continue to be a part of the Mandolin Cafe experience where we can go to meet old friends.

Yes lots of interesting points, thanks Dennis. I’ve just been looking through your YT channel looking for more tunes to play - lots there.
Here’s an example, Cascarda Chiara Stella over at Dennis’s YOUTUBE
Or: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zcoem...l5rqrbrd6&dl=0

We all seem to get different things from SAW.
One thing I’ve just realised is that all the tunes I play, almost without exception, are tunes that I don’t know!

I don’t know any of the tunes I play.

I’m always learning a tune. I learn a tune, record it from beginning to end without cutting and pasting.
Then I post it and move on.
I noticed this the other day when bored, I started playing to one of my OldTime MP4’s that has literally hundreds of tunes that I’ve recorded with the notation for each tune on screen.
It’s like a tune Karaoke session.
-it was sooooo easy that at first I was even more bored, and then would you believe it, I started to enjoy it, a lot! I found I had time to think of possible variations and doublestops and all that.
So for me the SAW group is a way to build my repertoire while sharing the tunes I favour.
I hear tunes from you guys that are played in different styles and settings.

Just putting in a marker, for now… Interesting discussion, which I need to give a bit of thought to. Several of the other ‘regulars’, that have t yet commented, may also need further time in which to do so.

I will reply! Remember me? For many of you, I'm just a name, with a kind of cute (and very out dated) pic, that occasionally shows up because I updated the table of contents!

I'm glad to see that there are still active members here, who participate, in whatever way that they desire. I regret to admit to ya'll, that my life, as lives tend to do, has moved on from music. It makes me sad. I have no callouses. I have not picked up an instrument since last summer, and when I did that last summer, it had been months and months since I had played anything. I hope this isn't a permanent thing.... but the way it is now, I just barely am here updating the table of contents, and this last time was the longest I think I ever went, between updates.

Can this group ever be what it was in the beginning? Truthfully, I doubt it. I think it is what it is. And, I think it is just what it needs to be, for the members who have been here, some since the beginning. Maybe it IS just a dozen people, who are taking the time to make a video of a tune, and submit it. What are they getting out of doing that? Probably, each person can give you their own answer. All just a little bit different. Some probably are so lucky, music IS their life.... they get to play with others, either in small groups, in sessions, in a band. Others, this may be their ONLY outlet for playing their mandolin. I did love it when we would have a tune, and have many people who would then add their video to that tune. And, it used to be, that that would happen, even on 'other tunes'. And, I'm sad to say, I don't pay enough attention to this group, to see how much participation there is, on the other tunes. Whether it's just someone posting their video, and a couple of people commenting on it. I will say, though, while I would venture that very few of our members have ever met another of our members face to face, that some close friendships have been made. There may only be 12 people regularly making videos and commenting on others.... but those that are, are on a first name basis, and as far as I can tell, everyone here has always been very supportive, very kind, very encouraging, to every one else.

I DO believe, though, that this group, and the huge repository of tunes within, will continue to be something of value to many people that we never know about, who never comment, who never join in, in any way. Even if it were to stop being active at all, as long as it's in Mandolin Cafe, and as long as people can find it, I believe they will get something out of what we have done.

We had 561 polls. Weekly polls for the longest time. Then, monthly, for quite a while, too. We experimented with the best way to populate the polls. I had an open discussion, for people to suggest tunes. I populated the polls with those tunes. I regularly requested people to submit poll tune suggestions. Eventually, the list I had to work from was meager. The poll voting participation was meager. Other tunes... rough estimate, we have approximately 3000 other tunes that have been submitted. Over the years, there have been many suggestions from members, on how to improve our group, what to do to encourage an increase in participation. I tried every one of those suggestions. But, they always pretty much amounted to nothing.... just the same ol' same ol'!

Could there be another social group here in the social groups of Mandolin Cafe, that was in the format that Simon DS described? Quite possibly. I think it's still pretty easy to start social groups in the Mandolin Cafe Social Groups. I think Scott had to grant us some special thing to have the polls, but maybe not. But, I think if what you are wanting is a new format, with fresh new, young, multi cultural and all gender members, starting something new would be your best bet. I'm certain that the members here that are active, would also participate in a new group, if its to their liking. I just think it would be far easier to just start something new and fresh, than to try to revamp this old group, with it's thousands of tunes, and its members comfortable with it is the way it is, into something new and different.

That said... this isn't MY group.... I'm just the person who has been running it all these years. If there is someone among you, who would like to take it over, and run it however seems right, I think it's just a matter of discussing it with Scott, and seeing what it takes to transfer the "ownership" of the group to that other person, and granting them whatever rights they need to run it. I certainly don't have a problem with giving it up. I used to be visible, I used to participate with the polls and submitting videos.... and now.... I'm not. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

You're right, Barbara. That's the big picture.

Well, I decided not to post anything in the group again...the reasons are varied and if I wrote them it would be very long, and due to the "cordial tone" of the group, I couldn't say some things very clearly and freely...just I thank those who received me cordially and made my position in the group more bearable, my sympathy will always be with them...

My situation has always been problematic since I entered the forum... I remember that my request to enter was always denied, and I was only able to enter when I wrote and clarified who I was and what "my intention" was to enter the mandolin cafe... some time later I bought a book, and the biggest surprise was realizing that I couldn't access the author's site to download the audio and additional material...then I verified that the author was a moderator of the forum (probably the one who denied me access to the forum), and that there were many complaints from users who could not access the same as me, the man simply blocked the IPs that were not from English-speaking countries...hahahaha...or, more specifically, from "some regions" of the planet...I'm telling you this to give you an idea of a possible reason why there aren't many participants from the "rest of the world"... Well, it's just one more story among many...as always, a cordial greeting and a big hug...

I wish you the best of luck with any decisions you make with the future of the group...

now some humor: I propose a group called "Ego Song-A-Week"

Oh, Jairo! I was looking forward to more of your music and conversation. I'll continue to follow you on Soundcloud. Send me a message if there's anything I can do.

Jairo, I couldn't quite follow what you were saying, other than you have decided not to participate in the Song A Week Social group any more. I don't believe it is due to anything that has happened here to you, in THIS group, but, if it is, I apologize for that. I see that you have been active in Mandolin Cafe itself, for over 10 years, and seem to be active in a number of the Forums on the other side of the Cafe, and active here in our Social Group. I hope that whatever the issue is, can be resolved, and you will continue to be a contributing member!

Jairo, I vaguely remember having difficulties accessing the MC years ago, and it turned out to be a fault in the blacklist blocking certain IP ranges (among them my internet provider) and was corrected shortly. I understood at the time, that there are IP ranges of providers predominantly used by blackhats which the MC tried to keep out, so it's nothing personal.

Though, Bertram, the selection process is racist, or rich-ist or whatever. Equality, freedom and all that is difficult to manage.

But thanks Jairo, that explains why a friend of mine can’t get onto the forum.
He called me up to see if I could help. I was surprise at the bias, especially considering his position - he’s a rich Prince from Nigeria who needs me to send all of his mandolins to him.

Sorry to hear that you don’t want to post any more tunes to SAW, Jairo. I always enjoyed your performances and felt that you had part of our little group.
Who’s going to balance us out with South American tunes now?
-Jairo.

Sad news, Jairo. I will miss your fine tremolo and your very kind and humorful comments. Good luck!

I'm sorry for your Nigerian friend, Simon I have lost all those friends long ago, they must have kind of blacklisted me...

I feel for all who get shut out from communities for technical reasons, though. I still haven't made it into Facebook because of a deadlock situation with passport photo upload. I keep telling myself it's for my own good.

I am one of the 1,600 members who never record myself playing, and have no desire to do so. I have seldom posted and never commented on others posts, therefore, by definition, to not participate.
I've been a member for 8 years and look through the posts daily. My opinion is: as I do not participate then I do not think i should make comment on those who do.
With respect to those who do post, I do not judge a posting on the skill of the player, or their style of playing but on what I like listening to, so again it would be a bias comment if i were to post.
Over the years I have picked up a lot of nice tunes, and improved my playing, through watching and listening to the posts.

John K wrote "We have a very small band of regulars - the 1600+ "subscribers" seems an irrelevant number as the vast majority of those have no visible connection with the group nor do they offer any feedback"
I am not sure if that was what the group was set up to do. My understanding was to select a tune from a group of suggestions, then over the period learn that tune. The posting a video, of how far you have come in learning the tune, was optional, but I might be wrong.
The focus now seams to have changed to the posting of videos, and then commenting on them, which is fine, but maybe that should be made clearer.
Exclude all the members who are not willing to post video's of themselves playing and you will have the membership of a "small band of regulars" that John referred to. Maybe make part of the membership conditions be that your willing to post videos of your playing For me I have no problem with that ,as a "none-member" I can still look at the posts and and get from it what I've always got as a "member" unless it made members only.

Sad to hear of your woes, Jairo, and I too will miss your fine contributions and comments. I liked your parting humour here of a possible new group "Ego Song-A-Week". I am sure that ego has always been a big part of posting our efforts online and then having those same egos massaged by the kind comments of our fellow posters.

Alcluith, I don't believe there is any desire to exclude people who do not post videos of themselves playing tunes. You are correct in what the intent of this social group was when it was originally formed 15 years ago. I don't believe that John K meant that the people who don't submit videos, or comment, are irrelevent. I took it to mean that that number is how many people, over the last 15 years, have joined the group. Many have moved on, and are not active in any way, even if it's just logging in to see what's going on. I don't know if there is a way to determine how many of those 1600 'members' still log into MC and check the group.

As far as feeling that since you do not post any videos, you don't believe you should make any comments, I don't really follow that logic. We welcome all comments, questions, observations, even if you have NEVER posted a video of yourself. Comments don't have to be 'judging'. They can just be comments!

Your statement, "Over the years I have picked up a lot of nice tunes, and improved my playing, through watching and listening to the posts." is EXACTLY the purpose of this group. To share tunes.

Your statement "I am not sure if that was what the group was set up to do. My understanding was to select a tune from a group of suggestions, then over the period learn that tune. The posting a video, of how far you have come in learning the tune, was optional, but I might be wrong. The focus now seams to have changed to the posting of videos, and then commenting on them, which is fine, but maybe that should be made clearer. " I have tried to change and update the description of our group, over the years, to describe what we are about, and what to expect. If you think I can change it again, to make it more clear, please let me know. This is what it currently says:

Welcome! For over 10 years, we had a poll, and an Official Tune. These polls are on hold for now. Please browse through the tune discussions in the three Table of Contents, & learn, comment on, or submit your video in the discussion, regardless of when it was originally posted.

While there will not be any new "official tunes", we still welcome new tune submissions! If you've got a favorite tune that doesn't already have a discussion, please submit it, with the name of the tune as the subject of a new discussion.

We also welcome general discussion posts!

Start by finding & reading the post "New to Our Social Group? ~ Read Me First!"

We have three 'TABLE of CONTENTS' discussions with links to the discussions.

Bertram, you pointed out the difficulties people encounter in ALL THINGS now, now that everything is done online. Everything is digital. And everything that is done online, is done within a computer program, that operates a certain way. People aren't actually involved. I am not tech savvy, so I don't know how it all works, but I do know that very little has actual people behind it anymore. Actual people that can actually intervene, and do something, in the moment, to rectify a problem. Yes, it is frustrating, but it's not personal. Case in point. I am involved in a local animal rescue group. A completely volunteer, unpaid group of big hearted individuals that spend countless dollars and time, rescuing, vetting, and finding homes for dogs and cats. The process of submitting an application to adopt is entirely online. In whatever program the rescue uses for such thing. Once the application is received, then humans do actually go over the application, check out the applicant, and decide if they are a suitable adopter. We also hold adoption events in local stores (usually pet supply stores). In these events, the fosters bring the animals they are fostering, for people to meet. They still have to submit an application to adopt, and they still have to be approved. We were at such adoption event last weekend. Right before we were going to leave, this couple came in. Rushed in. They had been in earlier, and they said that they had submitted an application, however, we could not find it. We were set up for them to submit their application again, right there, but they decided to go home to do it. Then they rushed back, and said that they had submitted their application. We still could not find it. They went ballistic. So much so, that one of the other volunteers there, was afraid that they were going to go out to their car, and get a gun. After all, this is America... this is TEXAS, where everyone has a gun, and feel entitled to shoot people when they are mad. These people would not listen to any kind of reason. The man shook his finger at me, accusing me of not caring, because if I cared, I would actually DO something about it. There was nothing that this group of mostly senior citizen volunteers COULD do about it. We had no idea how they were submitting their application. We had no idea why they wouldn't do it at the event, when given the opportunity to. We only knew that within the confines of how we operate, we had not received their application. Therefore, no one could review it, no one could approve or disapprove their application. However, one of women there did firmly say, YOUR APPLICATION is DENIED! due to their outrageous behavior!

Long story, I know. I don't know what all is involved in letting people join Mandolin Cafe. I don't know what all is involved in letting people join Facebook. I DO know what is involved in getting approved for an adoption application ONCE IT IS RECEIVED DIGITALLY, but I don't have a clue what happens between the time someone clicks on 'submit your application' online, and the people in the rescue who review the applications, actually receiving it.

Funny story, Barb, OK Corral online...
You should try to do property tax declaration online in Germany - or maybe you shouldn't, it's a good thing guns are restricted here.

Thanks for your input, Barbara, and for clarifying my comments re relevancy of member numbers. My intention was to say that the numbers are meaningless, not those folk who do not have a visible or audible presence in the group, and as you say, we have no way that I know of to get participation stats.

Actually I am acquainted with Alcluith who lives quite near me here in Scotland and we have exchanged emails and communications several times re tunes and playing mandolin and I am aware of his reasons for not posting. As far as responding to the videos of others, then it is of course up to each of us to decide whether we respond or not and we should not feel any obligation to offer comment or responses.

As you point out, several suggestions have been made over many years but the group has remained as it is and will probably stay the same for the foreseeable future. Many thanks for your great efforts over so many years, and it is good to see you are still very community-minded, as witnessed in your animal rescue ventures. We all move on to pastures new and find other interests and yet so many of us still keep music as a main pastime. It has certainly sustained me greatly over the past five years since my wife died and the friendships I have through music are among my very strongest, including being a part of the SAW Group.

I did not experience the poll days but I have still managed to discover many tunes that I would not otherwise have done and I quite like that without a poll driven mechanism the tunes that are and can be posted will be varied.

The rigour of recording and posting up the outcome has, I hope, helped me improve in a way that I don’t think would have happened had I not stumbled across this forum. To contrast that rigour it comes with the freedom to choose my own tunes to record either as an attempt at an existing tune or a tune new to the forum. That my limited musical understanding and indeed ability can go alongside so many obviously talented musicians without me feeling too embarrassed is a plus point.

I see nothing broken to be fixed.

Here’s another example.

Man, I really don't want to comment. But as a lover of this group and it's members I'll break my most beloved "Thumper" rule. From Dennis "First, what's the difference now between this group and the "Post a video of yourself" thread on the main forum?" I don't see much right now. It's turned into a freeforall. Too many posts with no direction or theme. This is not a new issue , I think we all know that. And every time this little scab keeps coming up, and not delt with it gets worst. I hope it can be fixed somehow, or I feel it will just fizzle out. But I do think this is also a "social media" type of problem. Bertrum, best thing they did for you was, keep you off FB. Frank

Thanks, guys, for your replies and input. This is the most I've logged onto the SAW in quite a while. And, just like almost any subject, the responses run from "I see nothing that needs to be fixed" to "every time this little scab keeps coming up, and not delt with it gets worst. I hope it can be fixed somehow, or I feel it will just fizzle out."

Maybe by this point, the main difference in this group, and the "post a video of yourself' thread on the forum, is that this repository is all contained within this group. With table of contents linked to the threads. Maybe it IS just a few people who still participate, posting videos and commenting and communicating with each other. Those people are certainly getting something out of what they are doing. And, I still firmly believe, that there are MANY people who are still getting something else out of it. It seems to me, that one way to tell if this is something more than just a few people who regularly post themselves playing some new tune, is by just looking at the first couple of pages of activity. That shows the last approximately 6 weeks of activity. In that time, yes, it's mostly a small handful of members posting new 'other' tunes. But, there was also 12 'old' other tunes that were revisited, 6 tune of the weeks that were revisited, I see that quite a few of the new tunes that were posted, had other members post themselves doing the tune. The discussions and comments on the posts, are usually more that just 'atta boy' posts....

I'll say this again, I am open to all suggestions. But, it seems at this point, the people who are the most active in this group, the people who have kept it going for 15 years, the people who regularly contribute, either by posting videos, or just by watching the videos, and commenting on them, are the ones who are most 'responsible' for what this group has become. They are still active, they are still getting something from it. And then there are the silent ones, who are getting something from it, by searching through the 15 years of posts, and watching the videos, reading the comments, and getting SOMETHING from it. And that is an important function of this group.

Fifteen years ago, when Scott changed over to the new program that the Cafe is run on, and saw that there was an ability to have 'social groups' in addition to the regular forum, he opened it up, with out any idea of what was to come of it. There were a number of groups started. I myself started several, which fizzled out to nothing. There are 140 social groups that were formed, that haven't had a post in 5 years. Sixty more that haven't had a post in 2 years. Twenty four more that haven't had a post this year. There are only 2 large, active groups. This one, and Newbies. This group, and the direction it has taken, may not be everyone's cup of tea. But, it obviously is enough people's cup of tea, that it's still the most utilized social group on MC.

There are two main 'parts' of MC. The forums, and the social groups. Obviously, this group, and Newbies, are the main social groups with large memberships and current activity. Looking at the forum side, "Song and Tune Projects" has just had 13 discussions active in 2024. "Videos, Pictures and Sound Files" is pretty active, and I see that is where the thread "post a video of yourself" (started in 2006) resides. Theory, Tips and Tricks seems to be active. And, music by Genre seems to be pretty active, as well. I see many of you are active in those other forums, and post your videos in the respective forums. In fact, it seems that the cafe, itself, still provides plenty of opportunities for ya'll to submit your videos, talk about music, talk about instruments, talk about technique.

If there is someone out there among us, who feels that they have a 'solution' to our 'problem', please step forward. Like most of the problems in the world, many people voice that there is a problem that 'someone' should do something about. But, that's as far as it goes. I'm willing to log on more frequently, and do whatever it is I can do. I'm willing to turn over the maintenance of this group to someone else. Ya'll come up with a plan, and I'll do my best to implement it. Maybe the best plan, for those that feel we need to do something to change the way this group works, is to start with coming up with a list of exactly what you think needs to be different, and what the goal is in making those changes. What are you hoping to accomplish? (to be continued)

(continued)

But, I'll say again, maybe the answer is just to let this SAW group, with it's active members (whether they contribute with videos, comments, or just silently watch and read), do what it's been doing. If you feel a need for a fresh new format, start a group with that format. If it's something that works, it will work. It's apparent that there are many members who participate in multiple forums, as well as either this or the Newbie social group. If there is interest in the new group, with the new format, I'm sure that the members who are here, participating, will participate in that one, as well, if that is what they want. And if the handful of people who are content with this group the way it is, aren't interested in the new group, they will just stay here, doing what they've been doing! I don't mean this to sound harsh, or like I'm saying if you don't like the way I'm doing it, go somewhere else, and do it different. That's not the case at all. It's just that the way it was done for over 10 years, fizzled out, and every attempt along the way, to jump-start it, went nowhere.

Maybe it's in the name of what this is. A social group. And what it has evolved into is the current way that our members, are social...

Frank the SAW is far from going to fizzle out - I’ve now got 1700 tunes to record, plus tunes from Martin and Richard - the limiting factor (thank goodness) is that for some of those tunes there’s no TAB!
As it is, if I only post two tunes a week then I wont be finished until 2046!
That’s assuming the rest of you guys don’t tempt me with another probably 3000 great tunes.
Fizzle out, don’t make me laugh!

Absolutely agree with you about themes though.
I’d really like to see everyone here do a collaboration with someone else in the group.
Let’s hold hands together like old hippies! Could make it a prerequisite for the 12 times in the year that we celebrate a theme? What happened to human rights days and brotherly love days (for Frank), and harvesting the heather day, Nicaragua independence day, and Baroque day, healthy psyche day and church architecture day and English jig day and… let’s make a gratitude list.
But themes can be tricky, they’re political… I think we can handle it.

Simon, thanks for that suggestion. Let me remind everyone.... every one of you is capable of starting a discussion, with a theme if that's your desire, and invite all members to participate. If you want it to be a monthly thing, then DO IT! It's been tried before, but that doesn't mean that it won't work this time. If it's something that takes off, I can even make a 4th Table of Contents, with clickable links to the discussions. My only request is that you title the discussion with something descriptive, so that in a table of contents, it is obvious what the plan is for that discussion!

Here's where we tried this 2 years ago.

Here's a big discussion we had 2 years ago about the direction of the group.

Here is a discussion back in 2020 about the group and what we could do to revitalize it

I realized I didn't address this concern in Gelsenbury's post above, that kickstarted this discussion again.

"Third, are we inclusive enough? Among the current regulars, we seem to have an unusually high level of homogeneity in terms of gender, skin colour and, to a lesser extent, age. We definitely used to have more women posting recordings and comments. I know we're all nice people, but is it possible that an unintentional impression of exclusion is being created?"

I can't speak for the other women who used to participate, and if any of them are still logging in and reading this, I'd love to hear their response.

For me, it was NOTHING that anyone did, that has made me less active. It has been life getting in the way. As life does. I LOVE playing my mandolin, and I miss it terribly. I LOVE the years that music, and playing the mandolin, was the biggest part of my day, almost every day. I hope to get to that point again. But, my absence was not caused by anything that any of you guys did. I have nothing but love and respect for you all! (signed an old, white American woman!)

There seems to be an elephant in the room, and I'll take a stab at outlining it. What was the attractive thing, that made all the group members gravitate towards it in the old days? It was not the polls, it was not the challenge of videoing yourself (new to many of us), but it was the presence of a person in the center, a role like mom/dad in a family or landlord/landlady in a bar/pub. Without such a person, we kids were ready for the harsh outside world of "post a video of yourself", because all of us have learned a lot, but the cosiness of "home" is not the same for us orphans. Not anybody can assume that center role, it takes the right personality. But maybe I'm the only one seeing it that way.

Bertram.... ouch! I'm truly sorry that I am not able to be here the way I was in the beginning. And, while YOU may miss me that much, I really doubt it was my presence that made everyone participate. And yes, maybe not just anybody can assume that center role.... but certainly, I'm not the ONLY person who can! And, at this point, do you have any suggestions as to what I can do, to make things better here? I can be present, I can post more often (but about what?), I can comment on discussions, but I am not in a position to be videoing myself playing my mandolin. I'm just not. I'm not anyone who someone can look up to as a mandolinist mentor. Most of ya'll are way more accomplished than I am. I can moderate the site, but I can't lead you on your musical journey, or teach you anything!

Has our group gotten stale and old? It has been around 15 years. We have discussions for over 3500 tunes. We do have over 3700 different discussions.

Again, I'm willing to do what I can, to try to fix what is ailing this group. I just need someone to come up with a plan

No regrets, Barb - none of us is the same person any more, and turning back is never a good idea anyway (ask Lot's wife). Each one of us has developed and should make their own plan for thriving further from that. I plan to continue doing what I did all the time: showing what is possible, ideas, tunes, techniques and personality (sorry for that), and watching the same from others. It's not about being similar, it's about being different and thereby interesting. For the sake of difference, the group continues to be useful, just not in the old way. The new way will unfold if everybody keeps on developing and surprising everybody else.

Sorry Barbara, I wasn’t talking to you about the proposals, I was talking to the group. But I really appreciate your input. Thank you.

You’re right Bertram the group has changed, we all play mandolin really well now.
And we are, well we always have been, very encouraging.

For Simon:



To understand what the thing is about:

SLEEP LITTLE BLACK BOY

Sleep, sleep, little Black boy,
For/As/Because/While your mama is in the fields,
Little Black boy.

She's going to bring quails for you,
She's going to bring rich/delicious fruit for you,
She's going to bring pork meat for you,
She's going to bring many things for you.
And if the Black boy doesn't goes to sleep/fall asleep, the White devil comes,
And crash!* He eats his little leg.

Working, working hard, working yes,
Working, she's coughing, working yes,
Working and they don't pay her, working yes,
Working and she's mourning, working yes
For the tiny little Black boy, working yes,
For the tiny little Black boy, working yes,
She's mourning, yes,
She's coughing, yes,
They don't pay her, yes,
Hard, yes.

* "¡zas!" is the onomatopoeia used for a quick blow by some blade, claw… so please change it for a more appropriate one.

Barbara's point about the SAW and the Newbies groups being the most active is a very valid one. Many of the other social groups are pretty much defunct if you look at the lack of activity on them. As an octave player I was interested in the relevant group Octave Mandolin and a look there today showed that someone had actually posted a comment, but this was in response to the previous post dated April 24th 2012! Similarly with the Celtic Mandolin Players I note that the last comment there was by me on November 11th 2020!

The Mandolin Players in Ireland group, which I believe was started by Dick Glasgow, known here as Ptarmi, was revived recently by Aidan Crossey and there was a flurry of activity there but other than Aidan himself doing a mammoth job of posting Irish tunes daily over several weeks the only respondents as far as I can see were Richard Carver of the SAW group and someone called Munnix, so it would seem the SAW group is positively blooming!

I can see Frank's point about too many posts leaving the viewer reeling and unable to respond - the sort of free-for-all scenario that he mentions in his posting. I know I often listen to a new posting but then find I really have nothing to say about it, so I say nothing even though I have looked and listened. I would say that those multiple posts do have a theme or direction, very often obscure tunes found in even more obscure tomes. I stress that there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking out and playing those tunes but they just do not appeal to me, just as my largely Scottish repertoire will not appeal to lots of folk, so I refrain from commenting on them.

Not surprisingly this thread has had some of the most interesting and thoughtful contributions we have had here in a very long time, being revived on April 10th by Gelsenbury after an almost two year hiatus. It has had 35 detailed responses in three days! Here's to the next two years, and the next....

I am with John: "Many of the other social groups are pretty much defunct if you look at the lack of activity on them." The ongoing activity on SAW indicates that there is not a lack of interest, only a different structure of exchange and motivation, different from the beginning; let's not forget that it all started with Bill Kilpatrick's Whiskey Before Breakfast Challenge, rallying everybody to contribute to one exceptional event, an early attempt at having a global session/jam. Having such an exceptional event every week made it less and less exceptional, becoming business as usual. Things that don't evolve become extinct, and the SAW group is still here, not despite leaving the old feeling behind, but because of moving on to new feeling. I hope this will continue. I have learned so much here*, and I hope that new people will pluck up the courage, like Malk did, to learn from putting their skills to the test against seemingly insuperable odds, which are not so insuperable after all.

*) I was not an avid follower of the week structure, though, because I like to practise a tune thoroughly so I can play it in live sessions and not lose it again a week later (in fact, I hate losing a tune, because someone will suddenly play it in a session and make me regret my negligence), and I can't do that in a week. But the "other tunes" branch gave me a home.