Jim Broon of Kintillo

  1. Malk
    Malk


    I undoubtedly could have played this strathspey more smoothly and better but I am hoping to be able to look back in a few months to see that I have improved …and perhaps sooner to see how others play it better. I liked the name as much as I liked the tune but could not see it played before on here.
  2. Gelsenbury
    Gelsenbury
    You've picked a tricky tune there! I'm not familiar with it, but have found the Nigel Gatherer page mentioned at the end of your video.

    John, as our resident expert for Scottish music, will be able to advise on the best right-hand patterns for this melody. As far as I can see, your left hand is perfect, with every note sounding clear.

    And it's a nice mandolin, too! Is that the Inishmore model?
  3. John Kelly
    John Kelly
    A new Strathspey to me too, Malk. Nigel is a great source for good tunes in many genres. You make a fine effort here and as Dennis says, the timing of the snaps (semi-quaver and dotted quaver) to give the tune its lift is maybe the main thing to work on in Strathspeys. It is a form unique to Scottish music. I look forward to more of your postings. As you say, they are a great record of our progress and now that you have taken the plunge, the rest will be easier.

    Dennis, thanks for your vote of confidence, but I would refute that I am the resident expert on anything! We all learn from each other in this group
  4. Simon DS
    Simon DS
    Very nice playing Malk. You have a good sense of timing with clear notes and good tone.
    I don't know if you are new or not, but welcome all the same! There is a thread for newcomers to talk a little bit about themselves, but I've no idea where that is...

    Hey Dennis, there is a psychological effect of which I am sure you are aware.
    It’s when a group of people are just about to engage in a dangerous activity, hang gliding for example, then it is really good practice to get the least experienced pilot to give their opinion on the weather, the terrain, equipment, and how they feel. The other pilots then give their opinion in turn until they reach the most experienced pilot.

    -and so it is with music, I should give my opinion before experienced John!
    Remembering that it takes a lot of courage to post a video of yourself on the SAW group, well done everyone!

    I've been away from the SAW group for awhile, and am now a Peghead.
    https://pegheadnation.com/string-sch...dolin-courses/
    I have had huge insights had some of my convictions reinforced, and will talk about them when I post my next video.


    Personal opinion: Although I haven't been commenting, I read and listen to many of the vids in the threads.
    I've noticed recently some, quite a few, divergent practices which I guess allows me to bend the unwritten rules and give a critique on a video, even though critiques are usually only given when asked for.
    Malk, two things. One is pick direction, it's extremely important to maintain strict pick direction. As a late intermediate you can begin to use different directions depending on the style of the music, but I would say that the first two or three years playing mandolin should be done with down strokes on eighth notes numbers 135 and 7.
    From the video, I would say that you’re good at classical guitar, perhaps flamenco? This type of music can have a lot of rubato.
    The second thing I would say is that your fret fingers need to arrive at the strings at 45° angles, with the fingers relaxed, but much more extended and the thumb on the top of the neck rather than behind it. In this position you won't need to look down at the fretboard. Basically you want your fingers to simply drop down onto the fret without having to think about it.
    As I said nice playing, well done.
  5. Malk
    Malk
    Thanks all and I will always be grateful for constructive comment. I love classical and Spanish guitar music but only to listen to as a guitar seems just too big in comparison to my wee hands (even with good left hand positioning tips)! I started by playing around on a uke but kind of surprised myself with the mandolin.

    I expect to aim to post tunes that I enjoy but can’t otherwise see on here or are on existing posts that have not been visited for a good wee while. I hope this will help me improve but not I expect to the heady heights of expert! I can though understand why John attracted such a label.

    My instrument is indeed an Inishmore.
  6. Gelsenbury
    Gelsenbury
    Since Malcolm found this lovely strathspey for us, the choice of what to play for Burns Night was unexpectedly easy this year. It was just a matter of getting it done quickly! As you can see in the video, I'm still reading off the screen. Strathspeys aren't intuitive enough for me to commit them to memory that quickly. And pick direction was tricky, too!



    Simon raises an interesting question about whether constructive criticism is appropriate. I always assumed that this was the whole point of recording and sharing our music here, especially videos where player and technique are clearly visible. Otherwise, how many versions of "Nice playing!" will it take until the discussion becomes meaningless?

    The caveat is that many of the regular posters here have achieved such a high standard that further improvements are impossible to suggest. But good critique doesn't focus on the weaknesses anyway, so there's usually still something meaningful to write about what worked particularly well.

    It would be interesting to me to hear some advice about rhythm. Malcolm and Nigel Gatherer are the only sources of recorded music I had for this tune, and I'm not very familiar with strathspeys. With the dotted notes, snaps, and triplets thrown in quite liberally, this was a challenge to navigate.
  7. Simon DS
    Simon DS
    Nice playing Dennis.
    Excellent, in fact. I like the tempo and the way you use the technical bits to paint an emotive portrait.

    Here’s a performance (mp3 by Nigel maybe?) and TAB.

    https://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tunes/J/JimBr.html
  8. John Kelly
    John Kelly
    Malcolm and Dennis inspired me to have a go at this one, so I got the notation from Nigel's website and recorded it today using my usual REAPER Daw. My version is on mandolin and octave, with the octave taking the A part second time round then both playing the B part. Instead of guitar I added the chord backing using my octave, so three tracks on this recording.
    Pictures from a December walk in the wood behind my house.

  9. Simon DS
    Simon DS
    An exemplary Strathspey Mr. Kelly.
  10. John Kelly
    John Kelly
    Many thanks, Mr DS!
  11. Bertram Henze
    Bertram Henze
    This is a totally interesting thread of tune evolution, showing how survival depends on timing, and how a Strathspey's survival can hang by a thread (pun intended). At least we players are not in constant danger of colliding in mid-stride like dancers are...
  12. Malk
    Malk
    They all sound so much better - something to aim for
  13. Ginny Aitchison
    Ginny Aitchison
    I agree on pick direction too. However, not everyone's rules are the same. I have been taught three different ways and I really just do what feels right. This is a great tune by all of you. Sorry, I have no criticism. Nice playing !!
  14. John Kelly
    John Kelly
    Re constructive criticism and Ginny's point about pick direction. When I was recording my Strathspey posted above I was aware of how I was using the pick and I have to confess that almost all of the recording was done using downstrokes! At the speed I was playing the tune, I could have used alternate picking or other mixtures and had I been playing it at a faster tempo (Strathspeys can be danced at different tempos) I would have reverted to alternate pick strokes.

    I am self-taught and confess that I have never actually got my head round the "prescribed" DUDDUD movement for jigs. As Ginny says we each find the methods that suit our own playing and our choices of music. I came to mandolin from guitar playing (again self-taught as there was no internet back in the late 1950s when I began, and my only tutor book was the classic "Tune A Day" by the British guitarist Bert Weedon. No YouTube, no countless instruction videos: just the 45rpm singles that we bought and listened to.

    My pals and I all wanted to play the instrumentals that were popular then by groups such as the Ventures, The Shadows and all the three-guitars-and-drums groups. We picked up ideas from our mates and accrued a mass of wrong techniques from which I never recovered. One fellow I played with for a while was left handed but played a right-handed guitar in standard tuning by playing it upside down! He borrowed the guitar from a friend who would not let him re-string it. He was in the Royal Air Force at the time and was stationed at the big airbase near my home in Kintyre and he did a mean Jerry Lee Lewis impersonation on his upside-down, borrowed guitar.

    I regularly wish I had had access to all the amazing instruction so freely and easily accessible nowadays, but being in my late seventies I think I will stick with my limitations now and just play the tunes I really enjoy playing, and there are so many.
  15. William Young
    William Young
    If there is room for one more jig opinion here: I read somewhere that one can discern a jig by saying :"jiggity, jiggity, jiggity" while it is being played. I think this works because one cannot say that (naturally) without putting the emphasis on "jig." So devotees of the DUDDUD method should really write it like this (since the reason for all this is to put the musical emphasis on the 1st and 4th pick strokes)--DudDudDud.

    I find this works naturally enough most of the time. But sometimes it is awkward. I think if one can make an upward pick stroke with the same enthusiasm as a down stroke--no need to feel guilty about breaking the "rule."

    Now I will also admit, the DUDDUD technique seems to work well for me (even though I think breaking the "rule" is fine.) But it is the rhythmic emphasis that I struggle with--regardless of pick direction. I trust time and practice will aid my efforts....

    In short, I understand it in my head, but my fingers seem slow to get the message....
  16. William Young
    William Young
    Forgive me, Malcolm. I did not mean to ignore your strathspey. Nicely done. I tried to learn one (a fairly recent tune--"Calum's Road"). I felt like my fingers were stumbling over each other to navigate the Scotch Snap thing. The tune you chose seems more difficult. Thanks for posting this....
  17. Gelsenbury
    Gelsenbury
    John, are you saying that this should be picked in DUD patterns? Or do you mean just the triplets? I think I found pick direction so challenging with this tune because the syncopated rhythm AND the triplets set a challenge for which my right hand wasn't quite ready.

    William, that's actually not QUITE correct because the third note in a jig triplet also needs some emphasis - it's not as low in emphasis as the middle note. So it would be more like DuD DuD, although perhaps more like DuD DuD because the emphasis on the third note isn't as big as that on the first. This is part of the jiggy rhythm and a good reason for the DUD DUD pattern, which has this emphasis almost built in. I learnt this from Marla Fibish when I started taking lessons from her.

    Anyway, the strathspey ... this was a learning experience. And I'm really glad we now have John's version as an example to follow.
  18. John Kelly
    John Kelly
    Dennis, Sorry to create confusion in my posting. I am certainly not saying that DUDDUD patterns ought to be used in Strathspeys - it is more the recognised pattern for jigs. Strathspeys are in 4/4 time and jigs in 6/8. I agree there are triplet groups within the Strathspey which might well suit this pattern. Scottish jigs tend to have a swing to the triplets whereas Irish ones seem to be played straighter, but again, this is not written in stone. My point was that each of us will have picking patterns that work for us, whether the "recognised" ones or ones we have arrived at through our own playing. I try to begin triplets in pipe tunes with an upstroke when I can as this seems to work for me, and on faster tunes I will use alternating strokes as in playing reels. On slower tunes, slow airs and waltzes especially I often find myself playing almost entirely with downstrokes. When I add a guitar or octave rhythm track to a waltz, especially when playing in a live dance setting, I will pick the bass note with a downstroke then play the chord with two upstrokes, emulating the bass playing the first beat of each bar followed by the chord on the piano or second accordion. I picked up this from listening to the piano players in Scottish dance bands and playing in a band where we had no piano, so the guitar filled in as it could.

    William, I imagine the DUDDUD configuration rather than DudDudDud you suggest is because jigs are in 6/8 compound time with TWO beats per bar and each beat comprising three quavers, so just 2 DudDuds? There are jigs in 9/8 and 12/8 time signatures too, slips and slides, and then we have a wealth of pipe marches in 6/8 time which will appear in sites like The Session as jigs as the site is geared towards Irish music. As you say in your posting above, "I understand it in my head, but my fingers seem slow to get the message". Exactly my problem with DUDDUD, I reckon.
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