Quandary/Epiphany

  1. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Newbie friends, if you've seen my recent posts in the Forum, you probably know I'm going a little crazy, continuing to embarrass myself over and over. It seems I can't help myself, as I've been so frustrated and seemingly getting nowhere with all the different directions I've been going. I've finally decided I'm at a crossroads and seek your input. Grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and get comfortable.

    A little background is in order, which some of you already know. My mandolin journey started in earnest 6 years ago, at which time I had no real musical background, other than brief piano stints from years before. I made the comment to my best girlfriend Barbara that I'd like to learn to play the mandolin. She was my son's violin teacher, which is how we met many years ago. Anyway, I said OK and have been with her for 6 years. She's an excellent violinist and violist, with advanced degrees in music education, and plays in the Dallas Opera and Wichita Falls Symphony orchestras. Her students, who are primarily elementary through high school age, exceed in their school and community orchestras and often move on to study for music degrees. Basically, my teacher is no slouch. Guess I could have just said that to begin with! Lol

    I have a second teacher who lives about 45 miles away from me, Gerald Jones. Jon Hall takes lessons from him from time to time. He plays mandolin and banjo in Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Bluegrass Band. I actually started with Gerald 20+ years ago when I was first interested in playing, but his style of teaching (here, play this) didn't fit my style of learning (show me on paper, and let's take it SLOW). Consequently, I didn't stick with him long. At this stage in my learning, he and I have a much greater connection. I guess that means I've learned something from Barbara!

    So, to the present time. It seems that for forever Barbara has had me working on holding my fingers down, rhythm, shifting positions, etc. There have been solos, but without purpose, except when I was playing in church from time to time. I enjoyed the lessons where we worked on that particular music. I'm not doing that now, however, so there's no real goal to pursue with her. Gerald has talked about starting a mandolin orchestra for years, and I'm encouraging him to do so. If that happens, Barbara and I are back in business.

    At this time I find it's hard to make myself practice what Barbara wants me to work on. The quandary is what to do about it. Although Barbara is a good friend, she definitely has her teacher hat on at my lessons. She doesn't like being questioned and she doesn't like her students having a second teacher. She accepts that I do, but doesn't know I see him as often as monthly.

    The epiphany I've just had is that I need to find a way to have Barbara help me - as much as possible - with the things I'm actually doing. My sense is that at a jam she would have to have sheet music to play melody, that she would not be able to improvise easily. For example, when I mentioned pentatonic scales at a lesson, she said they were unimportant and something she hadn't studied with either of her masters degrees. Seems to me the most value she can provide is to play my selected jam pieces along with me. In college she taught guitar, so she could play either violin or guitar or switch between the two. I can see real value in our doing this together, especially in transitioning from the last note of a piece back to the first note without missing the beat, which is one of my challenges.

    So, I guess I'm mostly venting here, but am also interested in hearing what else you guys (especially Louise) think Barbara can help me with, as you've gotten to know me, warts and all. It's important you know I can't fire Barbara as my teacher. I just must find a way to make our lessons more productive and enjoyable for me.

    Sorry for the rant. Appreciate your input.
  2. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Excel, not exceed.
  3. Southern Man
    Southern Man
    Honestly it sounds like you do not have the right teacher for what you want to learn. This is not a knock on Barbara, because I take you at your word that she is a really good teacher and very knowledgeable about music, but she seems either uninterested or unsuited to teaching things that you want to learn. I think you need to take lessons from somebody who is more suited to teaching what you want to play.

    I've never had a teacher for that period of time or anything close to that. I've always approached my teaching/learning as time-limited and course-based. This has allowed me to take from a number of different teachers in my 3 years. I've learned things from each of them, and sometimes different things. I'd really encourage you to re-frame in your own mind what you describe as a firing.

    Seems to me like given your own self-imposed limitation of not wanting to move on from Barbara, the best thing you can do is clearly outline the things that you want to learn and ask her how she can help you learn her. In my admittedly all too rosy and simple projection, my guess is that Barbara might encourage you to take from somebody else if she has good self-knowledge of her own skills and limitations as a teacher. It's not a firing for both of you to decide that it is best that this is not the best match at the current time. It also doesn't mean that you couldn't return to her at some other time.

    FWIW, this is a somewhat common observation of classically trained violinists and possibly other instrumentalists. They are not the best teachers if you are interested in improvisational music.
  4. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Thanks for your input, Southern Man. Firing Barbara would definitely impact our friendship. We're great travel partners and travel together when I can manage to get away. Also, she needs the money. Those reasons combined keep me with her, although not the best option for me musically. I believe what you've said as far as clearly outlining my needs to her is the best strategy. I just have to figure out those specific needs and how to approach her.
  5. Sue Rieter
    Sue Rieter
    You're really between a rock and a hard place, Sherry. Unless she deep down knows that you're on different pages music wise, it could be tough to come to a meeting of the minds. And the fact that you're good friends and she needs the money doesn't help. It's not going to be an easy conversation. But yeah, I think if you guys are close and you know ahead of time what she can help you with, and you can be assertive yet kind, you should be able adjust the teaching relationship without impacting the friendship. I don't envy you working this out.
  6. NDO
    NDO
    I am on the same page with Ken and Sue. It sounds like your best bet is to try to focus your sessions with your friend in directions that fit your interests...
    I’m envious in one sense. What a great problem, having too many live instructors. I’ve never had a lesson, even a remote one.
  7. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Yes, having too many teachers isn't a bad thing if you can hire and fire at will. I'd like for her to have some time to mull over the situation, so I've drafted an email to send her. Maybe I'll share it with you guys before sending it. I'm anxious to hear back from Louise, from her perspective as a violinist. I didn't mention I'm Barbara's only mandolin student. Maybe you figured that out. I appreciate your input.
  8. Sue Rieter
    Sue Rieter
    Sherry, IMHO this may not be something to discuss by email. It's easier in some ways, for sure, but kind of impersonal and easy to misinterpret. IMHO it's okay to write out what you want to say in order to get your thoughts organized, but, this is your best friend - I think it would be best in person, maybe over a glass of wine or something. If not, possibly a phone call.
  9. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    I do see your point, Sue. But, knowing Barbara as I do, she'll need time to mull things over. If I bring this up face-to-face, she'll bristle and be closed minded to anything I have to say.
  10. Stacey Morris
    Stacey Morris
    Since you and Barbara are best friends, maybe you could work it out so that she rides over to Gerald's place with you. He might have a guitar that she could use to join in an impromptu jam. At least maybe she could witness the kind of music you are leaning towards.
  11. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    She understands the type of music and she has a guitar, so that's not a problem.

    I've calmed down since venting to you guys and feel I can put a positive spin on this. I'll even figure out if I can just broach the subject at my next lesson, Sue.
  12. HonketyHank
    HonketyHank
    I just wanted to say I am following the conversation but I don't really have any good advice. Ultimately the two of you know each other better than any of us and thus, I should think, are best equipped to find the path. I think you are wise to see what needs to happen before the situation got out of hand. That means a friendly solution is much more likely.

    All the best to you.
    hh
  13. NDO
    NDO
    Good luck Sherry!
    Also think about the fact that at some point it’s possible she may read this thread.
  14. Louise NM
    Louise NM
    Hi, Sherry.

    It seems Barbara has given you a really solid foundation, something you probably wouldn't have gotten from a non-classically trained teacher. This will serve you well whichever direction you end up going. You are dead right that she probably knows next to nothing about improvisation. (I'm right there with her in that boat.) In the classical world, studying with two teachers is frowned upon, so it's normal she is a little tetchy about this. Your reasons are valid, though.

    Do you feel you have learned as much as you can from her?

    I'm curious what music she has you playing. Is it all from violin pedagogy? Do you have a variety of scales, etudes, and solo literature? Is she open to suggestions? If so, you might look at Volume II of Marilynne Mair's The Complete Mandolinist. It's all solo literature, renaissance to 20th century, chosen to work well on mandolin. There are many pieces she will be familiar with, others will be new to her.

    There are plenty of pieces around that are theme-and-variations, which could be a way to learn something with Barbara that could help you learn improvisation. One of the many versions of La Folia comes to mind. Corelli's is the most familiar. I have had fun learning the Michael Farinel version on mandolin. The Pachelbel Canon (Taco Bell Canon to generations of children) is another piece with variations on a theme. Is Barbara the sort of teacher that could get behind working with variations on "Soldier's Joy" in the style of Corelli or Pachelbel? You don't have to tell her you are doing half of them on the pentatonic scale.

    Is Gerald Jones able to work with you on the parts of mandolin that are instrument-specific? Tremolo, strum patterns, arpeggios? A few months ago I signed up for Caterina Lichtenberg's course on Artistworks, and have found it very helpful. My left hand transferred well from violin/viola, but the right hand was a mystery. While online lessons aren't perfect, it has been wonderful to see how it's done by a pro, and to have a guide through mandolin techniques and the historical literature. This is the sort of thing Barbara probably isn't equipped to teach you.

    It's tough when the same person is a dear friend, a teacher, and in a way an employee for whom your lesson payments are important. You know you need to tread carefully, and I hope the Newbies hive-mind has helped you suss it out.
  15. bbcee
    bbcee
    All good advice here, and Louise's seems really on the mark. I just wanted to add, and maybe it's just hot air, that you're not firing her - that implies she's inadequate or otherwise not up to the mark - but moving in a different direction. The kind of music we play on the mandolin certainly has some common ground with what Barbara is used to, but vast differences in technique and approach as well.

    Having said that, I thought Louise's suggestion of the Marilynne Mair book may just be the right way to go! Good luck, and remember in the end it's YOUR musical journey.
  16. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Thanks for all the comments, everyone. Louise, I knew you would hit the nail on the head. I may have to answer your questions piecemeal, as I'll have to do some research (i.e., digging) for some answers and just put in the time on others. I'm working today, but wanted to check for comments first. Hopefully, I can spend a little time on my PC this weekend to respond further.

    Henry, glad to see you're hanging out here. Please chime in any time.
  17. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Louise: "It seems Barbara has given you a really solid foundation, something you probably wouldn't have gotten from a non-classically trained teacher. This will serve you well whichever direction you end up going. You are dead right that she probably knows next to nothing about improvisation. (I'm right there with her in that boat.) In the classical world, studying with two teachers is frowned upon, so it's normal she is a little tetchy about this. Your reasons are valid, though.

    Do you feel you have learned as much as you can from her?"

    I'll start here. Yes, I feel Barbara has given me a solid foundation. My form is good and I have some good basic knowledge of what I should do, even if I don't always do it.

    I feel there is more to learn from her. She can "jam" with me, even though she can't improvise. She can help me develop intros and help me where I'm challenged with, like I mentioned before, going from the end of a piece back up to the first note at the beginning. I really struggle with that. I'll be singing and strumming, but also playing melody. So, there will be opportunity for "teaching moments," I'm sure. As much as anything, it will be fun, not to mention it will better prepare me for jams.
  18. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Louise: "I'm curious what music she has you playing. Is it all from violin pedagogy? Do you have a variety of scales, etudes, and solo literature? Is she open to suggestions? If so, you might look at Volume II of Marilynne Mair's The Complete Mandolinist. It's all solo literature, renaissance to 20th century, chosen to work well on mandolin. There are many pieces she will be familiar with, others will be new to her.

    There are plenty of pieces around that are theme-and-variations, which could be a way to learn something with Barbara that could help you learn improvisation. One of the many versions of La Folia comes to mind. Corelli's is the most familiar. I have had fun learning the Michael Farinel version on mandolin. The Pachelbel Canon (Taco Bell Canon to generations of children) is another piece with variations on a theme. Is Barbara the sort of teacher that could get behind working with variations on "Soldier's Joy" in the style of Corelli or Pachelbel? You don't have to tell her you are doing half of them on the pentatonic scale."

    Over the years I've played many scales, etudes and (mostly classical) solos. I've come up with more interesting scale exercises recently from Bud Orr's Anthology of Mandolin Music, which was recommended in the Forum. She's been supportive of my playing those. And somewhere along the line I came up with Wohlfahrt Violin Studies Arranged for Mandolin. Barbara says about the only differences she sees from the violin version is the addition of tremolo notations and tab.

    I don't believe the addition of solos at this point is what I need. I would love to play it all, and that's part of my problem: staying focused! At this point in time I really want to stick with the jam pieces, in hopes that the mandolin orchestra will materialize in the near future.
  19. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Louise: "Is Gerald Jones able to work with you on the parts of mandolin that are instrument-specific? Tremolo, strum patterns, arpeggios? A few months ago I signed up for Caterina Lichtenberg's course on Artistworks, and have found it very helpful. My left hand transferred well from violin/viola, but the right hand was a mystery. While online lessons aren't perfect, it has been wonderful to see how it's done by a pro, and to have a guide through mandolin techniques and the historical literature. This is the sort of thing Barbara probably isn't equipped to teach you."

    Yes, Gerald is able to work with me on all that! He's actually quite an accomplished musician, with an impressive resume. On top of it all, he's a super nice guy. I could easily take lessons solely from him at this point. I suspect, though, as things get back to normal, he'll be on the road quite a bit, plus he's busy with other stuff. So, I'll just continue to work in a couple of hours here and there. His band is booked for a couple of nights at the main stage at the Texas State Fair next fall.
  20. Louise NM
    Louise NM
    Sherry, it's great that he can teach you the things Barbara can't. Good balance between the two. A mandolin orchestra would be a lot of fun. Maybe he will emerge from Covid with a fully fleshed-out plan to start one.
  21. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Just thought I'd give an update. I had a lesson with Barbara this afternoon, first words out of my mouth being "I'm an idiot." I went on to explain she had mentioned our playing duets on a few occasions (and we have a few times), and that I really have needed to do that with the jam songs I've selected, rather than struggle on my own as I've been doing. We had an hour and a half lesson and didn't play a duet today, but she helped me with that transition from last to first note problem and also with my singing. We also discussed good and bad places to tremolo. I feel we made progress and are on good terms.
  22. NDO
    NDO
    That’s awesome Sherry!
    Seems like you’ve turned it constructive... instead of saying “I don’t want to do this” you’re saying “I need help with that” which is a lot more positive for both of you.
  23. Louise NM
    Louise NM
    Good—I'm happy to hear your footing feels more solid.
  24. Sue Rieter
    Sue Rieter
    Falls under all's well that ends well
  25. JeffLearman
    JeffLearman
    I have to say that I agree with her about the pentatonic scale. It's like training wheels. You're generally better off learning the 7-tone scales; it's just harder so a lot of people start with pentatonic. But it's a 5-note trap!

    Glad to hear you've found a good way forward. Also, it's a rare treat to get 90 minute lessons, unless you're rich or something. ;-) Anyway, treasure the time you get to spend with a highly trained musician. There's always something to learn.
  26. Sherry Cadenhead
    Sherry Cadenhead
    Jeff, I absolutely do treasure Barbara's knowledge and skills as a professional. I must admit, though, at being disappointed in her from time to time. I really thought, when she took me on as a student, she would make some effort to learn how mandolin is different from violin. I would have done that in her place. Also, she sometimes has her lunch while sitting with me during my lesson. That's something I would absolutely not do to a student! She was an only child, played violin from an early age, and, I believe, not raised learning common courtesies.

    As to the 90 minute lesson, 30 minutes of it was a makeup from a couple of weeks ago when I was out of town. I'm not rich, by any means, but continue to work part-time to support my "habit."
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