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Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Been reading the threads on tuners and how great the Polytune and Unitune and Peterson clip-ons are, and I’m considering which to get. My question is whether any of them work when you’re trying to set bridge position. Can any of them sense the 12th fret harmonic on the E string? Do they give solid readings on the fret at the 12th?
I’ve been using the Peterson stroboscope iPad and iPhone apps, but - using the built-in mics - it seems near impossible to get steady readings for those high tones. It’d be great if there was a clip on that would do this, though I get why that’d be asking a lot.
What tuner/setup do you use to intonate?
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Buy clip-on mic and use a dongle to connect to the iPad. The app is plenty accurate for intonation. I have used it. I also use a strobo clip HD and the Stroboplus HD. On my Bench, I was using a 590 auto strobe. the Strobo plus HD is if I am traveling and doing anything for anyone setup wise. The clip is just for my acoustics, tuning.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Another vote for just getting a clip-on mic/pickup and sticking with Strobosoft. Strobosoft is really good. Whatever you are using, you want readings from the bridge, not the headstock. There is not nearly the amount of vibrations going on up there compared to the bridge.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
I'm not following something--why do you need the tuner to pick up the harmonics? I tune the 12th fret to the harmonic by ear, then check at 5th fret octave to next string again by ear although I can see using tuner in both cases but you don't vary the harmonics except maybe trying to get it over 12th fret which I don't see that working JMHO
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
The PitchLab app (still available for free on iOS, no longer available on the Android store but available as an old version here: https://pitchlab-lite.en.uptodown.com/android or from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/PitchLabApp-P.../dp/B00LOETW3W) is nearly as good as my old dedicated Peterson strobe tuner. It is FAR superior to any other computer or device based tuning system, and I bought all of Peterson's StroboSoft and similar products.
It just filters through the mix of background noise like you wouldn't believe.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marty Jacobson
The PitchLab app (still available for free on iOS, no longer available on the Android store but available as an old version here:
https://pitchlab-lite.en.uptodown.com/android or from Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/PitchLabApp-P.../dp/B00LOETW3W) is nearly as good as my old dedicated Peterson strobe tuner. It is FAR superior to any other computer or device based tuning system, and I bought all of Peterson's StroboSoft and similar products.
It just filters through the mix of background noise like you wouldn't believe.
I downloaded Pitch Lab for Guitars to try it out. Prospective users should read reviews. Apparently some features don't work on newer devices and the developer appears to have stopped working on the software. Still worth a try. I'd be very hesitant to pay for any of the upgrade features though.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
I use the Peterson, and have no problems reading harmonics. The Polytune/Unitune is nearly as accurate if used in strobe mode, tho harder to read than the Peterson.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mandoplumb
I'm not following something--why do you need the tuner to pick up the harmonics? I tune the 12th fret to the harmonic by ear, then check at 5th fret octave to next string again by ear although I can see using tuner in both cases but you don't vary the harmonics except maybe trying to get it over 12th fret which I don't see that working JMHO
Any decent tuner should pick up both the 12th fret and the harmonics, yes. I think the value of a good tuner comes in when checking whether you need to make further small adjustments to the bridge or the saddle compensation, after doing the 12th fret harmonic to set the bridge. Because intonation on a fretted instrument is never perfect, and saddle compensation is usually a compromise.
Sometimes I might want to shift or angle the bridge ever so slightly to get fretted notes to match as closely as possible across the string courses at the 5th and 7th frets. This might mean deciding it's more important to get things as close as I can on the A and E string courses, sacrificing a bit of the intonation on the G and D strings. It's never perfect across all strings when they're compared at the 5th and 7th frets. But I can sometimes sneak up a little closer in the areas of the fretboard I care about, for the tunes I play.
The display method for "strobe" tuners let me drill down a little deeper into the harmonics than more basic tuner displays, so I can see what's going on. I use the older Peterson StroboFlip desktop tuner for this, because it's the one parked on a music stand in my practice room where it's convenient. My StroboClip tuner lives in the mandolin case, and it would work as well.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Anymore recommendations for cheapest workable mic?
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
I like to see the tuner read the exact pitch and then get to the same value on the 12th fret to match precisely.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Folkmusician.com
Another vote for just getting a clip-on mic/pickup and sticking with Strobosoft. Strobosoft is really good. Whatever you are using, you want readings from the bridge, not the headstock. There is not nearly the amount of vibrations going on up there compared to the bridge.
Any refs for the cheapest workable clip on?
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
I haven't tried this one but the price is right and it is for the strobo software. 15$ at Sweetwater.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...clip-on-pickup
If you are using a newer iPad or iPhone with the lightning plug you'll need the dongle for it.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
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Any refs for the cheapest workable clip on?
Something that is wired for a headphone jack. A regular mic will not work on an iphone without an adapter.
The Peterson version that John linked to is likely a good choice for that very reason. :)
If your iPhone is newer (7 or later) and doesn't have the headphone jack, you want something with a lightning connector or an adapter.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Folkmusician.com
Something that is wired for a headphone jack. A regular mic will not work on an iphone without an adapter.
The Peterson version that John linked to is likely a good choice for that very reason. :)
If your iPhone is newer (7 or later) and doesn't have the headphone jack, you want something with a lightning connector or an adapter.
I think most of the iPhones come with the dongle, or at least they used to. Oddly they seem like a very weak link but I have had
Mine for several years but I do try to keep the stresses off of it.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
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Originally Posted by
John Bertotti
Thank you, John - perfect. Just ordered one. $13 and change on Amazon with free shipping. Looking forward to getting back in tune,
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Are E.A.R.S. tuners obsolete version these days?
I've never owned electronic tuner and I only used one in a loud jam to tune quickly when someone handed to me.
Back when I started playing and working on instruments all I had were few bad pitch pipes, one 440 fork (that I still have but I know it is few cents flat) and one old child sized Casio keyboard (4 or 5 octaves) that had poor tone but pretty exact pitch. I started using that as reference for setups and over time I realized I don't need the reference any more. Sometimes when local pickers visit for bridge tune-up (after they bump the bridge or change to different strings) and leave the tuners on headstock I can usually do it better and faster without looking at the tuner at all. Even if the tuner is perfect you almost always need to count with compromises as each player hits strings with different power and that changes the initial pitch and also the string grip can be very big part as well - when I setup mandolin for my grip it may be sharp in higher positions for someone with "lumberjack" squeeze so I set up bridge for slightly lower intonation at 12th to compensate.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
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Originally Posted by
HoGo
Are E.A.R.S. tuners obsolete version these days?
I've never owned electronic tuner and I only used one in a loud jam to tune quickly when someone handed to me.
Back when I started playing and working on instruments all I had were few bad pitch pipes, one 440 fork (that I still have but I know it is few cents flat) and one old child sized Casio keyboard (4 or 5 octaves) that had poor tone but pretty exact pitch. I started using that as reference for setups and over time I realized I don't need the reference any more. Sometimes when local pickers visit for bridge tune-up (after they bump the bridge or change to different strings) and leave the tuners on headstock I can usually do it better and faster without looking at the tuner at all. Even if the tuner is perfect you almost always need to count with compromises as each player hits strings with different power and that changes the initial pitch and also the string grip can be very big part as well - when I setup mandolin for my grip it may be sharp in higher positions for someone with "lumberjack" squeeze so I set up bridge for slightly lower intonation at 12th to compensate.
That’s great! My pitch isn’t nearly as perfect, almost always a half step down. Over hear it is easier to get you hands ona tuner then a tuning for. I haven’t seen a pitch pipe in a store in a decade or more. I was in a mom and pop that had them but not out you had to ask, which I found out after I had purchased a tuner and the pitch pipe cost more. I recently downloaded a tone generator and it works well.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Actually, the vast majority of the popular electronic tuners will work perfectly well for the purpose of positioning your mandolin bridge. They will work particularly well if you use some new strings, which will generate a stronger 12-th fret harmonic. You should not ever need to buy a special tuner just for this. To position the bridge properly, all you're doing is comparing the note produced by the 12-th fret harmonic with the fretted note at the same position (fret 12) on the string. The absolute accuracy of the tuner that you select (that is, getting the value for frequency in Hz just right) is completely irrelevant for such a comparison! All that really matters is that the tuner (1) pick up the note (that is, have sufficient sensitivity), and (2) be stable and reproducible in its response (that is, it needs to have sufficient precision, not accuracy). A precision of a several cents is really all you require, since with equal temperament, musical intervals are rarely good to any better than that, regardless! Virtually all popular tuners achieve that these days. Furthermore, we should all remember that the compensation on the mandolin's bridge saddle is seldom good to better than several cents, so you rapidly reach a point of diminishing returns in positioning the bridge. Not every string will ever be pitch perfect.
You can certainly use a more costly but highly accurate Petersen Strobe tuner or the like, but an inexpensive Snark or a D'Addario/Planet Waves NS Micro tuner will work perfectly well! And so will dozens of other brands, like Korg, Intellitouch, Polytune, etc. (NFI). You can also use a tuner app on your smartphone for this purpose, for example, the free Pano tuner for iPhone, although using a tuner based on the phone's microphone, and not on a dedicated piezo sensor, requires a rather quiet background and a fast-registering tuner app.
It's all good. :grin:
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
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I think most of the iPhones come with the dongle, or at least they used to. Oddly they seem like a very weak link but I have had
Mine for several years but I do try to keep the stresses off of it.
iPhone 8 did... My XS came with headphones with a lightning connector (no adaptor).
I think Adrain's ability to intonate by ear is far from average! My pitch is well above average and I stil can't do it consistently.. Sometimes I am within a few cents without a reference, other times not so much!
Not in full agreement with Sblock on tuners. The electronics on these lower priced clips-ons may be accurate, but the display is not reflecting the details. The string will be fluctuating while the green stays lit.
Note: doing the intonation in the playing position vs laying the instrument on it's back will change things a few cents. How you fret, string attack.. you can see all of this in real time with a good tuner. Does it matter? Even though I can't always set it perfectly by ear, I can hear the difference when the intonation is spot on vs a few cents off. :)
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
What are we talking about. I thought "harmonics" were the "chimes" at various spots along the string, the strongest at the 1/2 point, next at the 1/4 and 3/4 etc. How do you change that to set intonation?
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mandoplumb
What are we talking about. I thought "harmonics" were the "chimes" at various spots along the string, the strongest at the 1/2 point, next at the 1/4 and 3/4 etc. How do you change that to set intonation?
Yes, the harmonics are the "chimes." You play the harmonic at the 12th fret, then compare to the fretted 12th. You move your bridge to get the harmonic to match the fretted note as closely as possible. Typically you'll do the two outer courses and might slightly twist the bridge to try to get the best intonation on those strings.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Recently on guitars I have been going up to the 17th fret or even the 19th to set intonation, not at the 12th fret. I like itfeels a bit mroe even up the neck to me and I do not notice a harmonic change tht is unpleasant at the 12th. I have not tried this on a mandolin.
Opps meant to add that I use the Peterson for this because I can see just how much movement I get at each fret up the neck. I have also found some slight back cut issues at a nut this way.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Since the accuracy of less expensive tuners is +or- 2 cents you may be way off setting intonation with one. It could read + 2 cents for fretting and - 2 cents for harmonic, making you a huge 4 cents off.
When I do guitar I ask where the player spends the most time. If around the 12 fret (lead player) then I intonate there. If a person is more of a rhythm player I intonate around the 7th fret. The 12th will be a little sharp, but the first position will be closer for the person who doesn't hang around the 7-15 frets.
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Re: Tuner that works for setting intonation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Bertotti
Recently on guitars I have been going up to the 17th fret or even the 19th to set intonation, not at the 12th fret. I like itfeels a bit mroe even up the neck to me and I do not notice a harmonic change tht is unpleasant at the 12th. I have not tried this on a mandolin.
Opps meant to add that I use the Peterson for this because I can see just how much movement I get at each fret up the neck. I have also found some slight back cut issues at a nut this way.
Sorry about the spelling I just noticed the wording and spelling. I need to forego typing on a phone right after I wake up. That's right I have no life the first thing I do before rolling out of bed is check here and Gretsch Talk and emails, then work emails.