THAT Freddie Green tone

Hi all
I am looking for a mid-priced instrument to produce a jazz tone as close as possible to the classic Freddie Green 4 beat guitar sound. It's of course not possible to mimic exactly, but Aaron Weinstein comes very close at 2:03 in this video:

https://youtu.be/Oe-Equu3obM

Which mandolin in the 1000--2000$ range can make a dry and woody tone like this? Although I love my Eastman 305, its tone is not right for this kind if music.

A really good A5 or F5 with a pickup, and good gear, sound etc. would approximate probably. If I remember correctly, he played an archtop F hole semisolid/hollow guitar? But there's probably specific builds that would cut down on the need for that that aren't Aaron's Apitius. I wish I was a fountain of knowledge on that. I like Freddie Green myself. I have a hotrodded F5 that could do it. As it happens, I'm considering selling it 😁

I wouldn’t know where to look, but if you find such an instrument, I’m sure many folks here would be interested. Maybe an old Gibson A model. I’m sure Andy Statman could get that sound out of his.

Not quite mandolin, but definitely fifths-tuned...

The amazing and generous Tony Lombardo put up a video series exploring Freddie Green-style comping on CGDA fifths-tuned tenor guitar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGAa5w3G7ns

I started on acoustic mandola, bought the materials Tony recommended, and also occasionally play on electric mandola or 5-string electric mandolin with the treble turned down. I also worked up three-course chords, withe the bottom string being either the root or fifth, and the next two being 3/7 or 7/3.

Good luck!

In case you haven’t seen it, here is a video by Aaron describing his Apitius Yorkville. Interesting comments at about 8 minutes about the tools to play jazz mandolin.

Thank you for the interesting thread, BessieM.
I too dig Mr.Green.

The estimable Mr. Weinstein remarks on the bass response of the Apitius
he's playing in the example you posted.

I've a hunch that the Apitius may be designed for that (duh!) and may have a larger
body volume that contributes. A little extra size could mean a lot, I think, in
such a small instrument. Purely ignorant speculation on my part.
Looks a bit bigger than an 'F-style' to me.

You might get there by playing many different instruments in your
price range trying to avoid all non-aural biases and looking for a lucky accident.

Comments on string choices, anyone? I am not qualified for this, either. :)

Happy Hunting!

First, I admire all the jazz mandolin playing!

But as a guitar player that has played the so-called
"Freddie Green" style swing rhythm, it's hard to get that sound on the mandolin because it is based on using certain strings of the guitar; on mandolin you do not have the low range of the E string on guitar. Even the CGDA tenor guitar cannot really make that sound.

I suggest getting a moderate priced archtop guitar and learning the style on that instrument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidKOS

First, I admire all the jazz mandolin playing!

But as a guitar player that has played the so-called
"Freddie Green" style swing rhythm, it's hard to get that sound on the mandolin because it is based on using certain strings of the guitar; on mandolin you do not have the low range of the E string on guitar. Even the CGDA tenor guitar cannot really make that sound.

I suggest getting a moderate priced archtop guitar and learning the style on that instrument.

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Hi David.
Youre right. In that sense at least, that its impossible to mimic directly. However being a jazz guitarist myself, I am perfectly aware of this. But the Apitus, that Weinstein plays comes very close to a well functioning mandolin version, which is why I ask for known examples of cheaper instruments.

Also I would argue, that Freddie Green did not play the E string that much, but that's a guitarists matter 😊

Further to Freddie Green: there’s a lovely anecdote that when the metronome was first invented, they took it to Freddie Green to make sure it was keeping accurate time! Also the remark that in all of music “there is no more positive sound than listening to Freddie Green play quarter notes.”

Here are some possible models, that by judging videos online perhaps could produce a usable Freddie Green tone:

Kentucky km-670
Eastman md404

I'm just guessing, but both of these have some depth and a mellow timbre

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Mott

Further to Freddie Green: there’s a lovely anecdote that when the metronome was first invented, they took it to Freddie Green to make sure it was keeping accurate time! Also the remark that in all of music “there is no more positive sound than listening to Freddie Green play quarter notes.”

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I totally agree

[QUOTE=DavidKOS;1897882]But as a guitar player that has played the so-called "Freddie Green" style swing rhythm, it's hard to get that sound on the mandolin because it is based on using certain strings of the guitar; on mandolin you do not have the low range of the E string on guitar. Even the CGDA tenor guitar cannot really make that sound./QUOTE]

From the research on Freddie Green's playing I've seen,, even on freddiegreen.org , I thought the low E string isn't really an emphasis. In fact, there are references to people writing entire books based on erroneous assumptions about Green's playing.

I thought it was in that context that people were exploring the normal pitch range of Green's actual playing, based on his actual recordings. That's why CGDA would work for most things, assuming that web site's stuff is accurate.

[QUOTE=Explorer;1897905]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidKOS

But as a guitar player that has played the so-called "Freddie Green" style swing rhythm, it's hard to get that sound on the mandolin because it is based on using certain strings of the guitar; on mandolin you do not have the low range of the E string on guitar. Even the CGDA tenor guitar cannot really make that sound./QUOTE]

From the research on Freddie Green's playing I've seen,, even on freddiegreen.org , I thought the low E string isn't really an emphasis. In fact, there are references to people writing entire books based on erroneous assumptions about Green's playing.

I thought it was in that context that people were exploring the normal pitch range of Green's actual playing, based on his actual recordings. That's why CGDA would work for most things, assuming that web site's stuff is accurate.

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I will dust off my mandola!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BessieM

Also I would argue, that Freddie Green did not play the E string that much, but that's a guitarists matter 😊

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He sure did play the low E....not so much the high E!.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Explorer

From the research on Freddie Green's playing I've seen,, even on freddiegreen.org , I thought the low E string isn't really an emphasis. In fact, there are references to people writing entire books based on erroneous assumptions about Green's playing.

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Yes, there are discussion on that website about "one note" stuff....but let's look at the bigger picture.

The standard style of acoustic big band guitar was the 3 note chord on the 6, 5 and 3rd strings.

I was taught by Danny Barker, who played with Louis Armstrong and Cab Calloway.

But since Freddie lasted with Basie way beyond the big band years, he is the one that is associated with the style. It just as well could have been Alan Ruess.

Anyway, the most typical version of 4/4 swing guitar uses those 3 note chords, sometimes 2 or one note, and sometimes 4 notes.

Overall, don't put too much stock in the one note chord concept.

going for the "Freddie thing" on a mandolin has more to do with touch, chord voicings, and rhythm pattern(s) struck than which type of mandolin used, allthough
I would not recommend an oval hole mandolin, and a pickup is not essential..truest representation of that sound ideal would be acoustic. I use pickups on my acoustics playing jazz rhythm, also run through a preamp that has a boost so I can switch between a rhythm sound and lead sound.

In terms of voicings, some say Freddie played only one note! You'll hear mando players say oh you gotta play 3-note chords, which can be cool of course. I think any number of strings/notes(1,2,3,4) can work if they are well chosen and struck properly. similar to other rhythm styles you're going to swing the pick through the strings you want to vibrate, then lift your fingers off the strings but not completely off, just until the sound has been stopped. You want a quick staccatto sound--chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk. No right hand muting allowed! That just makes your strings dirty then break...

Freddie would emphasize(sound) essential tones that betrayed the chord functions--3rds and 7ths mostly. That's a good starting point for us too I feel. You shouldn't feel as if a root is required..someone else will be playing that and even if no one is it will be inferred and listeners will get an idea of what tonality is expressed by the other tones. I think it's cool to let the mandolin be a mandolin and include the badass cool and pretty notes too-color tones(6,maj7,9) and even judiciously and tastefully placed alterations(b5,#5,b9,#9). Context is everything. listen that that the ensemble doesn't end up as a pile of all one thing, or that any pithy notes of interest you add might be distracting..

sorry for going long here..I'm still into this stuff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg

I think any number of strings/notes(1,2,3,4) can work if they are well chosen and struck properly. similar to other rhythm styles you're going to swing the pick through the strings you want to vibrate, then lift your fingers off the strings but not completely off, just until the sound has been stopped. You want a quick staccatto sound--chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk. No right hand muting allowed! That just makes your strings dirty then break...

Freddie would emphasize(sound) essential tones that betrayed the chord functions--3rds and 7ths mostly. That's a good starting point for us too I feel.

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THIS

Well said, and what really counts when playing swing is nailing the "chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk" beat.

Seems like someone on a flute forum asking how to get that Lester Young tone.

The mandolin is not a small guitar.

Thanks for all those interesting replies. Its great to be able to use this forum.

Just to be clear, I wasn't out to discuss Freddie Green's technique in general. I am just looking for the same function using the mando and I think Aaron Weinstein gives a very good example in the video.

Eastman El Rey?.....

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/201504#201504

NFI

I second everything Don said! It really is about touch. Though if we're really talking about FREDDIE SOUND specifically (as opposed to the other equally great rhythm guitarists), I suppose an acoustic instrument, by which I mean, no pickup, is the "authentic" way to go. BUT, I do think it's possible to "get at that sound" with whatever you happen to have in your hand. That said, the clips posted of my stuff here don't really--as the "Freddie thing" is an accompaniment technique which is rarely used when playing solo. But I do kind of hint at it here...at times--pardon the 1920's sound quality and everything else. But just as a point of reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe8uJRWXFpA