HB Tenor Guitar

Perhaps old news - I see Harley Benton has a tenor guitar ($200-ish) with a solid top and the bridge in the right place, although the copywriters don't seem exactly sure what it is they're writing about. One pick shows the fret marker on the 10th and the specs look promising:

Attachment 192518

https://harleybenton.com/product/clt-20s-tenor/#

Design: 3/4 Dreadnought
Top: Solid Sitka spruce
Body: Mahogany
Neck: Mahogany
Fretboard: Pau ferro
Mother-of-Pearl dot fretboard inlays
Cream/Black/Cream body binding
Neck profile: Modified Oval C
Scale: 579 mm / 22.8"
Nut width: 32 mm
20 Frets
Dual action trussrod
Compensated saddle made of bone
Bridge: Pau ferro
Scalloped X-Bracing
Open deluxe butterbean machine heads
Total length: 85 cm
Standard tuning: CGDA
Alternative tunings: GDAE, DGBE, GCEA
Ex-factory stringing: D'Addario J-66 tenor
Colour: Natural high gloss

Thumbs up for scalloped x-bracing.

Can the price really only be $169.00? The specs say it has a solid sitka spruce top and the audio samples sound good. How can it be this inexpensive?

Got some great reviews too - now if only the scale was 20-21".

Verne, I think you may have made this comment about bridge placement before. I don't quite understand it. This tenor and Blueridge and Gold Tone are all essentially the same scale length. All join the body at the 14th fret and have six more frets to the soundhole. So they all have the bridge in the exact same place, same distance from the soundhole. The difference is that some have a bigger lower bout (Gold Tone's is more rounded) giving the appearance of the bridge being in a different place. But they aren't. Am I missing something?

Alfons, I find that capo-ing a 23 inch at the 2nd fret and tuning GDAE give you that scale length and actually better tone than a 20-21 inch. (Though I've never tried a Fletcher.)

Just my observations, for what they're worth.

Bridge placement is one aspect that can effect performance and overall sound, in theory it should work best when placed dead centre of any hard or none moving parts.
Generally speaking with traditional guitar design, there is a structural brace right behind the sound hole.
So if you used a cross (x brace) to mark the centre point between the sound hole brace and the outer guitar edge you would mark the the place where most up-down vibration would be possible.
Or in other words the dead centre of the lower bout would be in theory the best place to have the bridge.
So if one was designing a tenor guitar you would layout the desired scale length, how many frets to body and where the sound hole will be placed and then design a body shape to match the bridge placement .... rather than.... design a nice body shape and stick the bridge way off centre.
Not to say an slightly off centre bridge wont work as certain compromises can be made with bracing design or f holes or perhaps a side mounted sound hole.

My first guitar was this Harley Benton tenor, hence my username on this forum. It’s a great little guitar, well built & well worth the money. I’ve found that it prefers CGDA tuning. One of the tuning pegs gave up up on it after a while so I put a set of quality banjo planetary drives onto it & haven’t looked back.

Fox, that's interesting. One of the reasons I mention it is because I have a Gold Tone TG-10 which I recently picked up used. The Gold Tones have had mixed reviews so I've been surprised how good it is to my ears. Nor is it too quiet. In fact, this weekend I'm picking up a used TG-18 (solid top) although if it hadn't become available I would have been happy with the one I have. I wish I could see where the bracing was in relation to your post.

Normally with a fixed bridge, the outside edge of the bridge plate will rest over the top of an X brace and in turn, slightly to the rear of the brace centre, so the force of the bridge is tilted exactly over the X.
Lots of luthiers have their own ideas and theory’s of exactly where the bridge should be fixed but that is the theory I was taught.

Available since April 2015 - Reviews on Thomann's site go back 5 years. All positive.

$235 delivered to the US. Out-of-stock 7-9 weeks

https://www.thomannmusic.com/harley_...s_nt_tenor.htm

$215 CAD + shipping in Canada Verne:https://www.thomannmusic.com/intl/ca...3D%3D&reload=1

Video:
https://video2.thomann.de/vidiot/025...8_yd59vq0a.mp4

Huck

Fox, I looked at my wife's Martin 000-17. The bridge is actually a couple of inches higher at least than the spot you suggest. From what I can see, anyway. Interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cary Fagan

Verne, I think you may have made this comment about bridge placement before. I don't quite understand it. This tenor and Blueridge and Gold Tone are all essentially the same scale length. All join the body at the 14th fret and have six more frets to the soundhole. So they all have the bridge in the exact same place, same distance from the soundhole. The difference is that some have a bigger lower bout (Gold Tone's is more rounded) giving the appearance of the bridge being in a different place. But they aren't. Am I missing something?

Alfons, I find that capo-ing a 23 inch at the 2nd fret and tuning GDAE give you that scale length and actually better tone than a 20-21 inch. (Though I've never tried a Fletcher.)

Just my observations, for what they're worth.

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I think it best to defer to Fox on this. He's better at explaining the technical stuff.

I've found that as the bridge moves closer to the neck/soundhole for 14 instead of 12-frets to the body, the tone tends to thin out and lose volume. Not on all builds, but most as there are other things at play beside bridge placement. 14 frets works on a 6-string because center body placement can and does tend to get boomy and muddy.

The main issue I've found with most tenor guitars I've tried is the sound is thin and weak and in most cases the designers have chosen to go 14-frets to the body for extra frets putting the bridge closer to the neck/soundhole. This is very noticeable on the Ibanez parlor - great little guitar with the bridge in the wrong spot as most parlors that sound good are 12 not 14 frets to the body.

I think if Ibanez were to hire fox to redesign their parlor tenor they'd have a winner instead of a meh.

I got twigged to this when I was playing with placement of piezo pickups on the soundboard of a few guitars. One of best spots is between the bridge and the soundhole leading me to believe that that area is critically important to the sound of an acoustic instrument. The more space and the easier it is for it to vibrate the better the tone you should get.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!:grin:

Not trying to be contrary, I find all this tenor stuff fascinating and am enjoying all the info. All 23 inch tenors seem to join at the 14th fret--Martin O18s, Blueridge, Recording King, even the small body style 5 Martins. The only tenors I know of that join at the 12th fret are 21 inch scale and they do have their bridge more in the middle of the lower bout or even lower. Also Vintage Gibson TG-1s (at least all the photos I've seen) are joined at the 12th but their bridge is even closer to the soundhole. (Not sure what scale they are.)

Well It is an interesting subject and as have already said there are lots of opinions but basic physics points you in the right direction and after that It often comes down to minor details that can be personalised and then justified by the designer.
As am example... If you tap the guitar on the sound board and move around toward the edges then the tone will change and any sustain will lessen.

Cary, I had to do a bit of searching to find a none too argumentative thread but you can read a bit more detail here .... https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=485595

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cary Fagan

Not trying to be contrary, I find all this tenor stuff fascinating and am enjoying all the info. All 23 inch tenors seem to join at the 14th fret--Martin O18s, Blueridge, Recording King, even the small body style 5 Martins. The only tenors I know of that join at the 12th fret are 21 inch scale and they do have their bridge more in the middle of the lower bout or even lower. Also Vintage Gibson TG-1s (at least all the photos I've seen) are joined at the 12th but their bridge is even closer to the soundhole. (Not sure what scale they are.)

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I understand what you're saying. Most traditional Martin, Gibson and other tenors were 6-stringers with a tenor neck slapped on and tend to sound meh. Makers had to move the bridge forward to lesson woofiness for 6-strings but that extra body is exactly what a tenor needs. There are very few purpose-designed and built tenors until you get into the smaller bodies, and as you note they are joined at the 12th.

There are obvious examples of nice 14-fret designs like Nigels, but you're into boutique building and prices at that point.

For comparison here's the HB beside the Ibanez PFT2NT and Ibanez AVT1. The Ibanez PFT2NT is plywood the others are solid tops. Ibanez did have a PFT1 that was solid woods but mysteriously disappeared from circulation.

Attachment 192518 Attachment 192535Attachment 192536

Some of the older Martin 5's had 12-fret neck joins. I have a 5-17T like that - I think the change was during the 1929 production year (for that specific model at least). I was able to compare mine to a 14-fret 5-17T and thought the 12-fret was much fuller sounding - though of course there could be all sorts of things going on with a couple 90+ year-old guitars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Verne Andru

Ibanez did have a PFT1 that was solid woods but mysteriously disappeared from circulation.

Attachment 192518 Attachment 192535Attachment 192536

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Verne your not thinking of the solid top AVT2 when you say PFT1 are you?

Attachment 192540

Body shape: Mini Dreadnought body
Bracing: X Bracing
Top: Solid Sitka Spruce top
Back and sides: Mahogany

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Huck

Verne your not thinking of the solid top AVT2 when you say PFT1 are you?

Attachment 192540

Body shape: Mini Dreadnought body
Bracing: X Bracing
Top: Solid Sitka Spruce top
Back and sides: Mahogany

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That's the one - thanks. Model numbers mess me up.

Do you know if any soundhole pickup would fit in this guitar? I just bought one online and I'm willing to buy a pickup for it.

Thank you in advance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fox

Bridge placement is one aspect that can effect performance and overall sound, in theory it should work best when placed dead centre of any hard or none moving parts.
Generally speaking with traditional guitar design, there is a structural brace right behind the sound hole.
So if you used a cross (x brace) to mark the centre point between the sound hole brace and the outer guitar edge you would mark the the place where most up-down vibration would be possible.
Or in other words the dead centre of the lower bout would be in theory the best place to have the bridge.
So if one was designing a tenor guitar you would layout the desired scale length, how many frets to body and where the sound hole will be placed and then design a body shape to match the bridge placement .... rather than.... design a nice body shape and stick the bridge way off centre.
Not to say a slightly off centre bridge wont work as certain compromises can be made with bracing design or f holes or perhaps a side mounted sound hole.

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I agree with everything you said here. It is however strange that so few guitars are actually designed that way. Just look at your typical dreadnought. The bridge is nowhere near the center of the lower bout.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PT66

I agree with everything you said here. It is however strange that so few guitars are actually designed that way. Just look at your typical dreadnought. The bridge is nowhere near the center of the lower bout.

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IIRC they shifted the bridge forward when they went from a 12 to 15 fret neck join. It also changes the voicing that helps remove boominess in some builds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Verne Andru

IIRC they shifted the bridge forward when they went from a 12 to 15 fret neck join. It also changes the voicing that helps remove boominess in some builds.

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Even before the shift to a 14 fret neck the bridge was not centered on the dreadnought style guitars.
Attachment 211147
Ditson (Martin built) Style 11. First dreadnought.