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I keep reading about the advantages of 5ths tunings vs 4ths, but could someone elaborate - not on the technical aspects, but on the ease of play, beauty, etc.? It seems that fiddle and Celtic type tunings are usually in fifths (?), whereas GDBE and open tunings based on guitar and five-string banjo are in fourths.
As background, I am new to playing a tenor guitar in DGBE and a few close variants, coming from a banjo background.
Thanks!
Here's my take on it:
Both tunings maintain their patterns across the full fretboard, with no irregularities.
Stanley Jordan plays touchstyle guitar in full 4ths. It's great for close harmonies.
I use full fifths because it is easier to build chord forms which allow using the lowest finger (towards the nut) as a barre, and then the remaining fingers moving towards the high-tuned edge of tye fretboard. I play a lot of chord melody.
On 9-string (-course) guitar, i use standard guitar tuning at the top, letting me use standard guitar chords, then fourths tuning from there. That major-3rds discontinuity helps chord tones line up in a useful way.
Just my experience and opinion, of course.
The one issue that I see making a difference is practical. At longer scale lengths the fifths tuning makes a long reach before you move to the next string. On short scale instruments scales fall nicely under an average size hand with fifths tuning. Chord forms can be spread out a little more making it easier to get your fingers where they need to be.
On longer scale instruments a fourths tuning fits under the average hand better. If a guitar did not move to the next string till the seventh fret it would require a lot of hand shifting to run scales and some chord forms would be impossible due to the stretches. I realize cellos are in fifths but they are not playing chords. Imagine having to move to the equivalent of the seventh fret position on a stand up bass before you got to another string. It would require all kinds of hand and arm movement to play anything at all elaborate.
The fifths tuning originated on violin family instruments where they are not playing chords very much. Some people have said that the bass tuning in fourths is because it evolved from a different family of instruments. But I do not see that playing a fifths tuned bass would be real practical though someone has probably done it sometime.
The 5ths tuning can give you more open sounding chords, but most of us don’t take advantage of that. I play all 4ths tuning on guitar, not well. It makes sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlM
As for basses tuned in 5ths, you’re right, it’s been done. Bassist Red Mitchell was great in that tuning, and Thomastic even make a set of strings they call the Red Mitchell set. A lot of other bass players have tried the tuning but most, including me, go back to 4ths.
On a mandolin, a normal hand span is about a fifth. So with strings tuned in fifths, and played diatonically, (two frets per finger on average) the hand doesn't need to move up and down the neck as much, as the next open string is available.
On a guitar, a normal hand span is about a fourth. So with strings tuned in fourths, played chromatically (one finger one fret), same thing.
This is of course generalization, but it sure explains a lot.
There are a few tuning intervals on guitar and 5-string banjo that are similar to 4ths tuning, but in an overall view their typical tunings are very different than true 4ths tuning.Quote:
Originally Posted by echo chamber
This is an interesting discussion that has much more obvious meaning in the double bass realm. 4ths tuning EADG is pretty standard for double bass, but there are a notable number of double bassists who use 5ths tuning and really like it.
With a ~42" scale length on the typical double bass, it really noticeably means that shifts happen in different locations on the fingerboard. But for most 5ths tuning double bassists it also means having a wider range of notes:
5ths tuning double bass is typically CDGA... This eliminates a need for a 5th string or a 4th string extension.
There are also a good number of double bassists who also play cello, so 5ths tuning on double bass might be more natural for them.
Notably, because most available instruction on double bass is focusing on 4ths tuning, 5ths tuning players have to be pretty autodidactic. This also applies to mandolin players who may select non-standard tunings.
On double bass I'm a 4ths tuning user and that's fine for me. But there are enough advantages that I don't have any questions about double bassists who like 5ths tuning.
Thank you all for the replies. I see that I don't know very much about this! However, the practical explanation for hand size vs. scale length I can understand. Think I will stay in 4ths tunings.
- - - Updated - - -
P.S. I meant DGBE on the tenor, original typo must be my banjo background showing through.
Fourths tuning on a double bass makes the standard root-five rhythm support ideal and extremely easy to finger with the left hand as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlM
Just to be clear...Quote:
Originally Posted by echo chamber
The standard mandolin tuning, for which a virtual world of lessons and books are available, is GDAE, 5ths tuning, similar to the violin.
If you select 4ths tuning on mandolin, that will mean you will not be able to find much of anything in the way of lesson materials. In other words, you'll be pretty much on your own.
As someone who uses a non-standard mandolin tuning all the time, I can tell you it is challenging to make progress on your own.... Not impossible, but challenging.
:)
DGBE tuning is also known as Chicago Tuning, ie: the first 4 strings of western guitar tuning.
gDGBD and CGBD tuning are familiar 5-string and plectrum banjo tunings.
The non-standard tuning I use on mandolin is GCEG, which is roughly the same as the first 4 strings of 5-string banjo tuning capo'ed at the 5th fret. This open C tuning is basically using the same first 4 string intervals and chord patterns of "Slak Key", Taraopatch", "Russian Guitar" and "Keith Richard's" tunings.
None of these are true 4ths tunings. On a mandolin starting at the same low G as standard mandolin tuning, true 4ths tuning would be GCFA#.
Music has phrases of melodic shapes and these shapes are often linked to the ease with which a players fingers move; finger move shapes.
An tune that has a nice feel to the fingers will become popular with certain instrument layouts.
I am also relatively new to tenor guitar. I started in fifths/mandola/tenor banjo tuning, but then switched to Chicago tuning and find it works much better for me - just much more comfortable to play in that tuning at the tenor guitar scale length. Good luck; I am greatly enjoying my tenor; hope your experience is similar.