How do you think of the fretboard - closed patterns or just notes

Coming from fiddle to mando, I tend to think of the fingerboard/fretboard in terms of a matrix of note names. Playing Bluegrass tunes off the dots would seem to encourage that view, especially as lots are in 'open string' keys. Trouble is, if I need to busk something I'm usually looking for open strings as a 'comfort zone' - which isn't too great from Eb on :)

However, I've noticed that some mandolin method books get to teaching closed patterns once they get past the beginning stages (like many guitarists). So, e.g. if you know chords and chops in D and you need to busk the tune/song in Eb, you can just move your finger patterns up a fret.

Do you see the mando fretboard in finger patterns or note names - or both?

For me, both. But patterns obviously arise due to the mandolin's tuning.

Well ... learning to hear the tonal relationships in a closed position allows you to move about the fingerboard more freely...... but those open strings sound so good.... ahh the conundrum.

A bit of both, I expect. Two separate but related systems which overlap and interrelate. I think I think about note names a bit less than I do numbers as relating to the scale - not scale numbers either so much, but perhaps a bit more. But knowing where the scale patterns are helps to imagine where the "safe spots" are - that is, where fingers go in that key, and the other spots being errors, or where the clams live. ;) Which is not to say some of them can't be useful, like blue notes for instance. But to stay within the lines, stick to the safe spots.

So say, for the G scale, the safe spots look like this:

-xx-x-x
-xx-x-x
-x-xx-x
-x-xx-x

I don't need to know what the names or numbers for those x's are; I just know those are in the plan. And i know this pattern can be shifted up the neck, or migrated up the strings.

You need to know both to be really proficient. The note names/locations are absolute while the patterns are relative, ie, the intervals. But I find my pattern facility varies with the finger and scale interval I am starting from. I’m much better with patterns starting with my index finger on the root compared to my pinkie on the third of any scale. I think that phenomenon is shared reasonably widely.

Practicing arpeggios starting from any finger, any scale tone, is quite useful.

All I know is that I look at the music (I play classical from sheet music) and my fingers know where to go. I don't really think of them as "notes by name" most of the time. It just happens. Practicing pretty much insures that it will be memorized. So I'm not sure I can actually answer the question!

I try to learn note names, especially up to the seventh fret. That being said the ffcp (four finger closed position) scales are incredibly useful especially if playing in an unfamiliar key. They systematically cover the entire fretboard.

I think in patterns mostly, but I always know what note I am playing.

I am developing some ease in moving around and switching patterns, but feel like I need to learn more. I forgot about the FFCP stuff, might want to revisit that again.

I can sight read at the nut in first position, but not so much up the neck, I guess I have a lot more to learn. :-)

I think in terms of strategies for each key, which includes positions, doubles stops, and open strings. Each key has its own library of "good stuff" on the mandolin.

I'm like Tim Logan, I look at the music and my fingers are where they need to be. But that's how I learned to read music. You can't find patterns or look at your fingers on a flute, say, you look at the music. And that's the world I originally came from. In general, though, I'd think how you visualize the fretboard depends on what music you play. If you play chords, then you look at patterns. If you play single line melody, then you think in terms of notes. my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Tim Logan

All I know is that I look at the music (I play classical from sheet music) and my fingers know where to go. I don't really think of them as "notes by name" most of the time. It just happens. Practicing pretty much insures that it will be memorized. So I'm not sure I can actually answer the question!

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I learned classical violin as a kid, and I did a lot of sight reading at home from orchestral exerpt books of famous symphonies etc. The result was I could sight and play e.g. notes with 5, maybe 6, leger lines above the treble clef - but I didn't know what they were called.

I use both pretty much simultaneously,,it's not all that hard to know every note,,but I also think more in numbers also,,3,,b3,,,where's a 5 ,,etc..

Nothing wrong with either; thinking both ways would be better than just one.

However, you ought to strive to push past that, and not think with right-brain analytic thought (patterns or "names"), except for purpose of analyzing what you, or someone else played.

When you are playing it you want to just sonically hear it. No names, no visual patterns, just pure audio.

Now, there's gonna be some who'll say "that's too advanced to even talk about, I'm nowhere ready for that stuff." But you can start working towards that, now. It's not complicated.... just start vocalizing what you are playing while you are playing it. You can sing the note names, or sol-feg syllables, or the fret numbers, but CONNECT IT to the audio! You want to connect your ear to your fingers so that when you think a note sequence, your fingers almost automatically go there. And vocalizing the pitch sequence burns it into your brain far more effectively and deeply than just passively hearing it come out of the instrument.

So, you can work at this at whatever level you are on: beginner, intermediate, advanced....

But hey, I'm just a raving looney (and pawn in game of life); what do I know? :)

Niles H

I like Niles raving looney philosophy but I have always been a fan of his approach.

I also play fiddle and guitar so I have the advantages of all three instruments. Plus I have been in many situations mostly in old time jam sessions when I play tunes I don't know. I generally hear the chords that need to be there and when playing mandolin or fiddle I do know the note names but they never get in the way of playing. I can usually know where the notes in the scale and the notes in the arpeggios are. In fact if I listen to a tune I find I can actually visualize my fingers playing it especially in the super-common keys that I am very comfortable with.

Don't really understand the "matrix of note names" concept. I could just as easily see them as colors. :)

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Originally Posted by mandocrucian

...However, you ought to strive to push past that, and not think with right-brain analytic thought (patterns or "names"), except for purpose of analyzing what you, or someone else played. When you are playing it you want to just sonically hear it. No names, no visual patterns, just pure audioNiles H

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I know where that's coming from, as we have someone in the house (our son age 25) who works that way. He started with classical violin lessons, but as soon as he picked up a guitar it was obvious he's a 'listen and play' guy. He can hear something and right away he knows where to find it on the fretboard, a bit later he's got it, unless there's some complex picking or chording going on. Maybe it helps that he's dyslexic - he seems to get the music straight out of the instrument with no intermediary, I'm not so quick at that (even allowing that he's 25).

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Originally Posted by mandocrucian

........When you are playing it you want to just sonically hear it. No names, no visual patterns, just pure audio.

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That would be the goal, just singing along with your instrument.

Takes a bit to get there though:)

Eventually you have to do it all. And eventually you will find yourself doing it all.

I started in first position, (using open strings) because I was impatient to play some melody with others, and because I had the woodwind prejudice that there is one correct way to finger a note. That is the way I learned to read as well, in first position with open strings.

It was not till I delved into the FFcP and violinistic position play, that I really got off the open strings.

Playing up the neck, however you work it out, does have the advantage of learning tunes and riffs that are portable up the neck. But the big advantage I find is that in many cases there are much easier ways of achieving things up there, where going down a string and up the neck is much easier than that wicked reach with the pinky.

I think there is great beauty and power in melodies with open strings, and also with closed position playing. I don't think there is a reason to be exclusive to either one.

The mando is tuned like the circle of fifths, study that and then start looking at your fingerboard.

Great question & thoughtful responses. My cop-out response:

IT DEPENDS ... on what music I'm playing.

For more casual stuff (rock, folk, BG, etc.), where I mostly think in terms of chords, progressions, & where the melody centers, AND in terms of listening to what others are playing, I mostly see "patterns" of what fits where & what sounds good, even if "what sounds good" is maybe not much sound at all.

For orchestral playing, where the printed page defines all, and what others play may sound unrelated to my part (even if the specific piece IS actually rock, folk, etc.), then it has to be a case of "from the page to the finger", without worrying too much about what a given note is named. (For the uninitiated, meaning me 4-5 years ago, those pieces that change key several times, often unexpectedly, can REALLY tax your attention!)

But I strongly agree that such flexibility takes time and, even having read notation at a basic level since day-one, it's been the past 5 years of orchestral playing that really honed that skill to some fair level of confidence.

For me it's neither, or both. I have no idea what I'm doin'. Seriously, I just play.:mandosmiley:

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Originally Posted by UsuallyPickin

... but those open strings sound so good.... ahh the conundrum.

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Do they? As a beginner I avoided them altogether -- following the only instruction I had on the mandolin. I still avoid leaving a string on an open note. Should that happen I find myself muting the string. And, of course, open strings are harder to control -- how do you slide into or away from an open string?


I do use the as phrase turns, esp. in the keys of Eb and Bb, also there are special effects requiring their use, e.g., alternating between closed and open notes on one course. Take the second part of Brilliancy where the first two and a half bars are to be played on the e course: Attachment 192811 (example A)

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Originally Posted by ralph johansson

-- how do you slide into or away from an open string?Attachment 192811 (example A)

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Sliding into an open string - if it's a D A or E, slide to that note on the string pair below while picking the open string pair as well - I'm told Chuck Berry played that all the time on his mandolin :). Or, slide to that note on the string below then pick the open string to get that ringing sound on the next note, if it happens to be the same note.

Sliding away from an open string - pick both the open string and the same note on the course below, then slide down with the fretting finger.

These may not be the effect you want of course...

Both