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Thread: Tortoisetone picks

  1. #1

    Default Tortoisetone picks

    Anyone used one?

    Something still doesn't feel right in using "legally sourced" shell.

    Be interesting to hear your opinions.

  2. #2
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    I just don't get it. With the wide array of materials available to us today, there simply is no need to use products made from animals, legally or otherwise. These picks are still made from living turtles. Just because they're not endangered does not make it ethical.
    Larry Hunsberger

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  3. #3
    Registered User Ken_P's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Quote Originally Posted by mandobassman View Post
    I just don't get it. With the wide array of materials available to us today, there simply is no need to use products made from animals, legally or otherwise. These picks are still made from living turtles. Just because they're not endangered does not make it ethical.
    Not to mention the outrageous prices. They run almost double the cost of a Blue Chip, and being real shell, they'll wear pretty quickly, unlike the BC which is practically indestructible.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    There's another viewpoint here -- the old farmer's view. Use every part of the pig except the oink.
    I am assuming the turtles are not being raised just for their shells. They're raised for the pet market, and I'm sure there are some natural deaths that occur along the way. Might as well use that amazing natural material, which would never be confused with marine turtle shell due to its appearance.

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  6. #5

    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    I've heard of and used tortoise shell picks but what are these tortoise tone picks? Are they a new thing?
    Edit, just googled them. I'll stick with my BC's.

  7. #6
    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    From the site --

    Q: Are Tortoise Tone TM flat picks really made from legally sourced material?
    A: Yes. These are Red Eared Slider turtles farm raised for their meat. We donate all the meat back to our vendor, which they don't mind at all. Our goal is to source our picks in an ethically and environmentally sound manner.

    So, it is a by-product of "farming".
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  8. #7
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    There's another viewpoint here -- the old farmer's view. Use every part of the pig except the oink.
    I am assuming the turtles are not being raised just for their shells. They're raised for the pet market, and I'm sure there are some natural deaths that occur along the way. Might as well use that amazing natural material, which would never be confused with marine turtle shell due to its appearance.
    And here's a counter-argument from the conservationist/environmentalist perspective:

    Progress in reducing, and eventually eliminating pressure on endangered species depends on removing the desirability of the material in question.

    The site selling this product, while making all kinds of noise about how ethical they are, is still leaning on the desirability of Hawksbill shell. In the FAQ page it even says "The term "tortoise shell" traditionally refers to items made from the shell of the Hawksbill sea turtle. Plectra made from this shell produce sound with a magical sparkle that is legendary."

    And of course the product name itself uses the word "tortoise." If you'll pay $80 for a pick made from a farmed species normally sold as a pet turtle, then why not pay a little more for the real thing under the table at a Bluegrass festival?

    I don't care how "environmentally responsible" the actual material is. It's leaning on the desirability of an illegal product to sell the substitute, and that helps sustain the illegal market. The way you get Hawksbill tortoise products off the market -- completely off the market -- is to make it less desirable, along with any supposed substitutes. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Not only is this ethically highly dubious, but anyone who knows turtles knows that the keratin scutes of a Red Eared Slider bear almost zero resemblance to that of a Hawksbill. They are soft, thin, flaky, and shed regularly. Their structure and composition is completely different. Absolutely no comparison and it is very misleading to suggest otherwise (but probably fairly profitable). There are so many excellent alternatives available today to illegal endangered species products - and this is not one of them.
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    I agree with the use everything but the oink but, they don't want the meat (which they give back to the vendor) therefore these are farmed/sold for their carapace.
    Even if the meat gets used as a by-product its production would seem not to be tied to the demand for the meat.
    So the number of animals and value is determined by the demand for turtle shell, really just another variation on fur farming. I'd rather they had an extensive breeding/protection programme in the wild and had to go hunt a % of them.

    Anyway 'tis all academic for me as there's more fun to be had experimenting with discarded materials and doing it for myself.

    Hopefully this is an idea that'll wither on the vine, or at least not take off any more than it is. There may be a desire but there's no 'need' for this one.
    Eoin



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  13. #10
    Registered User mcgroup53's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Not true. The pick guy at IBMA was selling TS for $40 in numerous thicknesses and shapes. And he's using 100% legal pre-CITES sourced material from antique brush handles, mirrors, etc. I have doubts there's much illegal harvesting going on to supply musical instrument picks. It still came from the animal in a cruel process, but there's less of an issue, IMO.

  14. #11
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Quote Originally Posted by mcgroup53 View Post
    Not true. The pick guy at IBMA was selling TS for $40 in numerous thicknesses and shapes. And he's using 100% legal pre-CITES sourced material from antique brush handles, mirrors, etc. .
    To clarify something. That is absolutely, categorically NOT legal. Once "antique" TS is "re-worked" it is treated as new for the purposes of CITES (and the ESA) and may not be sold or traded without a permit. See:

    http://www.guitarbench.com/2008/10/0...ature-article/

    http://www.antiquestradegazette.com/...gered-species/

    If the "re-working" (conversion) was done after 1947 there is no exemption.

    Many people are confused and mistaken on this issue. It can be an expensive mistake, as it can lead to very serious criminal charges.

    Converting "antique" TS to new picks is highly problematic legally. Anyone selling them could find themselves in deep water.
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  15. #12

    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    I have a feeling that finding tortoise shell in a new musical product is somewhat akin to finding horse meat in Tesco lasagna: You could argue either way about the ethics of it, but the general public will still find it detestable based on societal pressures.

    I think the moral of this story is... if there's really no practical reason or advantage to using anything made from actual tortoise, then don't. Even back in the late 1800s, people started using celluloid substitutes.

    --Tom

  16. #13
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Almeria is absolutely correct. While the purchase of TS & Ivory 'articles' made pre. 1947 is perfectly legal,once the 'article' has been re-worked to produce a different 'article', it is classed as a NEW article & thus,illegal. As for TS being a suitable material for picks in the first place,i have one that was given to me by my banjo instructor back in 1963. It was ancient even then & it has to be the worst sounding mandolin pick in the world - ''a broken bottle picking on bedsprings'' comes to mind - or maybe that's just the tone i went for,
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  17. #14
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    one that was given to me by my banjo instructor back in 1963. It was ancient even then & it has to be the worst sounding mandolin pick in the world - ''a broken bottle picking on bedsprings'' comes to mind
    That's what I'd expect

    I see this strange golden-fleece myth of the ideal pick pop up again and again. To me, it has the completely useless super-mojo of a 100 y/o cask of single malt (any remaining spirits therein will taste like a rotten sawmill floor, but there are people willing to pay for it).
    If you want a pick with animalistic mojo, go with The Hobbit, because Smaug the dragon seems to be covered in them.
    Or you could extract your own toenails for picks, practising that high and lonesome singing as you do it.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    OK, for those are worried about endangered species please read the title and the original post again. This isn't about picks made from the shell of the Hawksbill Turtle. We don't have discussions about the trade in those products for a reason. It's about a legal product that is being marketed as Tortoisetone. In this case it's no different than discussing leather straps. If you've tried one please feel free to tell the OP what you think about them. If you haven't why not read more and write less.
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  20. #16

    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_P View Post
    Not to mention the outrageous prices. They run almost double the cost of a Blue Chip, and being real shell, they'll wear pretty quickly, unlike the BC which is practically indestructible.
    Real shell don't wear quickly, ain't least not in my experience.
    Best\joe

  21. #17
    Destroyer of Mandolins
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    While I have not used this product I have a small knowledge of similar materials. Setting aside any issues moral and ethic, I cannot imagine this being superior in any way to modern synthetics. While natural shell may or may not wear quickly, the wear characteristics would likely be unpredictable and the variability inherent in a naturally occurring material would most probably prove detrimental. The great advantage of the synthetics is that they become predictable.

    I for one would not be interested in a natural material for a pick simply because the first one I buy might be a great success while the next ten may be disappointing. When I open a package of a dozen synthetic picks I know exactly what to expect from each of them.
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  22. #18

    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Quote Originally Posted by mcgroup53 View Post
    Not true. The pick guy at IBMA was selling TS for $40 in numerous thicknesses and shapes. And he's using 100% legal pre-CITES sourced material from antique brush handles, mirrors, etc. I have doubts there's much illegal harvesting going on to supply musical instrument picks. It still came from the animal in a cruel process, but there's less of an issue, IMO.
    Some how I don't think he was selling tortoise shell picks, not legal and the look alike materials available today make it very hard to tell the difference unless you know what to look for.
    Best/joe

  23. #19
    Registered User mcgroup53's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Thanks for the clarification, Almeriastrings. I was just going by what the guy selling the picks was using as his answer to that question. Should have done more research before posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    To clarify something. That is absolutely, categorically NOT legal. Once "antique" TS is "re-worked" it is treated as new for the purposes of CITES (and the ESA) and may not be sold or traded without a permit. See:

    http://www.guitarbench.com/2008/10/0...ature-article/

    http://www.antiquestradegazette.com/...gered-species/

    If the "re-working" (conversion) was done after 1947 there is no exemption.

    Many people are confused and mistaken on this issue. It can be an expensive mistake, as it can lead to very serious criminal charges.

    Converting "antique" TS to new picks is highly problematic legally. Anyone selling them could find themselves in deep water.

  24. #20
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim2723 View Post
    I for one would not be interested in a natural material for a pick simply because the first one I buy might be a great success while the next ten may be disappointing. When I open a package of a dozen synthetic picks I know exactly what to expect from each of them.
    I couldn't agree more. I have only ever used a few TS picks that were not mine. I just borrowed them to see what they sounded like. They all sounded terrible to me and, while they all looked exactly the same in size and thickness, they each sound completely different. I like the fact that if I drop my Wegen and can't find it, I can pull out another and it will sound exactly the same. And again, making picks from animal products is just un-necessary.
    Larry Hunsberger

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  25. #21
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    Quote Originally Posted by mandobassman View Post
    ...making picks from animal products is just un-necessary.
    Amen to that.

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  27. #22
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tortoisetone picks

    I can just imagine ole Lloyd sittin' there a pickin' on one o' them dreadful sounding mandolins he came up with with a handful of T/shell & a sayin' ''ain't this just awesome ?''. If T/shell was all they had back then ('Bakelite' was around in those days though) & the 'Loars' sounded good using those picks,it's no wonder they sound so good these days,
    Ivan
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