Anyone used one?
Something still doesn't feel right in using "legally sourced" shell.
Be interesting to hear your opinions.
Anyone used one?
Something still doesn't feel right in using "legally sourced" shell.
Be interesting to hear your opinions.
I just don't get it. With the wide array of materials available to us today, there simply is no need to use products made from animals, legally or otherwise. These picks are still made from living turtles. Just because they're not endangered does not make it ethical.
Larry Hunsberger
2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
Ibanez PF5
1993 Oriente HO-20 hybrid double bass
3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin
There's another viewpoint here -- the old farmer's view. Use every part of the pig except the oink.
I am assuming the turtles are not being raised just for their shells. They're raised for the pet market, and I'm sure there are some natural deaths that occur along the way. Might as well use that amazing natural material, which would never be confused with marine turtle shell due to its appearance.
I've heard of and used tortoise shell picks but what are these tortoise tone picks? Are they a new thing?
Edit, just googled them. I'll stick with my BC's.
From the site --
Q: Are Tortoise Tone TM flat picks really made from legally sourced material?
A: Yes. These are Red Eared Slider turtles farm raised for their meat. We donate all the meat back to our vendor, which they don't mind at all. Our goal is to source our picks in an ethically and environmentally sound manner.
So, it is a by-product of "farming".
And here's a counter-argument from the conservationist/environmentalist perspective:
Progress in reducing, and eventually eliminating pressure on endangered species depends on removing the desirability of the material in question.
The site selling this product, while making all kinds of noise about how ethical they are, is still leaning on the desirability of Hawksbill shell. In the FAQ page it even says "The term "tortoise shell" traditionally refers to items made from the shell of the Hawksbill sea turtle. Plectra made from this shell produce sound with a magical sparkle that is legendary."
And of course the product name itself uses the word "tortoise." If you'll pay $80 for a pick made from a farmed species normally sold as a pet turtle, then why not pay a little more for the real thing under the table at a Bluegrass festival?
I don't care how "environmentally responsible" the actual material is. It's leaning on the desirability of an illegal product to sell the substitute, and that helps sustain the illegal market. The way you get Hawksbill tortoise products off the market -- completely off the market -- is to make it less desirable, along with any supposed substitutes. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
Not only is this ethically highly dubious, but anyone who knows turtles knows that the keratin scutes of a Red Eared Slider bear almost zero resemblance to that of a Hawksbill. They are soft, thin, flaky, and shed regularly. Their structure and composition is completely different. Absolutely no comparison and it is very misleading to suggest otherwise (but probably fairly profitable). There are so many excellent alternatives available today to illegal endangered species products - and this is not one of them.
Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
Northfield Big Mon #127
Ellis F5 Special #288
'39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.
I agree with the use everything but the oink but, they don't want the meat (which they give back to the vendor) therefore these are farmed/sold for their carapace.
Even if the meat gets used as a by-product its production would seem not to be tied to the demand for the meat.
So the number of animals and value is determined by the demand for turtle shell, really just another variation on fur farming. I'd rather they had an extensive breeding/protection programme in the wild and had to go hunt a % of them.
Anyway 'tis all academic for me as there's more fun to be had experimenting with discarded materials and doing it for myself.
Hopefully this is an idea that'll wither on the vine, or at least not take off any more than it is. There may be a desire but there's no 'need' for this one.
Eoin
"Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin
Not true. The pick guy at IBMA was selling TS for $40 in numerous thicknesses and shapes. And he's using 100% legal pre-CITES sourced material from antique brush handles, mirrors, etc. I have doubts there's much illegal harvesting going on to supply musical instrument picks. It still came from the animal in a cruel process, but there's less of an issue, IMO.
To clarify something. That is absolutely, categorically NOT legal. Once "antique" TS is "re-worked" it is treated as new for the purposes of CITES (and the ESA) and may not be sold or traded without a permit. See:
http://www.guitarbench.com/2008/10/0...ature-article/
http://www.antiquestradegazette.com/...gered-species/
If the "re-working" (conversion) was done after 1947 there is no exemption.
Many people are confused and mistaken on this issue. It can be an expensive mistake, as it can lead to very serious criminal charges.
Converting "antique" TS to new picks is highly problematic legally. Anyone selling them could find themselves in deep water.
Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
Northfield Big Mon #127
Ellis F5 Special #288
'39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.
I have a feeling that finding tortoise shell in a new musical product is somewhat akin to finding horse meat in Tesco lasagna: You could argue either way about the ethics of it, but the general public will still find it detestable based on societal pressures.
I think the moral of this story is... if there's really no practical reason or advantage to using anything made from actual tortoise, then don't. Even back in the late 1800s, people started using celluloid substitutes.
--Tom
Almeria is absolutely correct. While the purchase of TS & Ivory 'articles' made pre. 1947 is perfectly legal,once the 'article' has been re-worked to produce a different 'article', it is classed as a NEW article & thus,illegal. As for TS being a suitable material for picks in the first place,i have one that was given to me by my banjo instructor back in 1963. It was ancient even then & it has to be the worst sounding mandolin pick in the world - ''a broken bottle picking on bedsprings'' comes to mind - or maybe that's just the tone i went for,
Ivan
Weber F-5 'Fern'.
Lebeda F-5 "Special".
Stelling Bellflower BANJO
Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.
That's what I'd expect
I see this strange golden-fleece myth of the ideal pick pop up again and again. To me, it has the completely useless super-mojo of a 100 y/o cask of single malt (any remaining spirits therein will taste like a rotten sawmill floor, but there are people willing to pay for it).
If you want a pick with animalistic mojo, go with The Hobbit, because Smaug the dragon seems to be covered in them.
Or you could extract your own toenails for picks, practising that high and lonesome singing as you do it.
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
OK, for those are worried about endangered species please read the title and the original post again. This isn't about picks made from the shell of the Hawksbill Turtle. We don't have discussions about the trade in those products for a reason. It's about a legal product that is being marketed as Tortoisetone. In this case it's no different than discussing leather straps. If you've tried one please feel free to tell the OP what you think about them. If you haven't why not read more and write less.
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
While I have not used this product I have a small knowledge of similar materials. Setting aside any issues moral and ethic, I cannot imagine this being superior in any way to modern synthetics. While natural shell may or may not wear quickly, the wear characteristics would likely be unpredictable and the variability inherent in a naturally occurring material would most probably prove detrimental. The great advantage of the synthetics is that they become predictable.
I for one would not be interested in a natural material for a pick simply because the first one I buy might be a great success while the next ten may be disappointing. When I open a package of a dozen synthetic picks I know exactly what to expect from each of them.
Dedicated Ovation player
Avid Bose user
I couldn't agree more. I have only ever used a few TS picks that were not mine. I just borrowed them to see what they sounded like. They all sounded terrible to me and, while they all looked exactly the same in size and thickness, they each sound completely different. I like the fact that if I drop my Wegen and can't find it, I can pull out another and it will sound exactly the same. And again, making picks from animal products is just un-necessary.
Larry Hunsberger
2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
Ibanez PF5
1993 Oriente HO-20 hybrid double bass
3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin
I can just imagine ole Lloyd sittin' there a pickin' on one o' them dreadful sounding mandolins he came up with with a handful of T/shell & a sayin' ''ain't this just awesome ?''. If T/shell was all they had back then ('Bakelite' was around in those days though) & the 'Loars' sounded good using those picks,it's no wonder they sound so good these days,
Ivan
Weber F-5 'Fern'.
Lebeda F-5 "Special".
Stelling Bellflower BANJO
Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.
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