"What Did Bill Monroe Invent?"-- from another forum

[Mike Bunting]

No, Woody Guthrie invented Bob Dylan. Chuck Berry invented the Beatles and the Stones.

You took it literally. Listen to Nadine and Subterranean Homesick Blues to see how Chuck invented Dylan.

[FLATROCK HILL]

You took it literally. Listen to Nadine and Subterranean Homesick Blues to see how Chuck invented Dylan.

The 'invented' term is a subjective one, at least in this thread but.... Blaming Chuck for Dylan is unfair.

[jaycat]

You took it literally. Listen to Nadine and Subterranean Homesick Blues to see how Chuck invented Dylan.

Too Much Monkey Business may be more apropos than Nadine. But that was Dylan's second incarnation (at least) so I guess you could say Chuck re-invented him. Although I don't recall anything in Chuck's repertoire that sounded much like Gates of Eden.

[mandopete]

What is bluegrass?

(there, I said it)

[Mike Bunting]

Too Much Monkey Business may be more apropos than Nadine. But that was Dylan's second incarnation (at least) so I guess you could say Chuck re-invented him. Although I don't recall anything in Chuck's repertoire that sounded much like Gates of Eden.

Too Much Monkey Business is the one I didn't add because I was too lazy, it is the most relevant one. I agree. I have to say that I only threw the whole notion out there just to be facetious since I think the whole thread is frivolous. I don't believe that anyone invents anything, things evolve out of a serendipitous set of circumstances is all.
"Ah, too much monkey business for me to get involved in!"

[Gary Hedrick]

I read somewhere -- maybe in Dawidoff's excellent overview book, In the Country of Country -- that Monroe was originally very skeptical of letting Scruggs join the band with his banjo. At the time, the banjo had a reputation as a non-serious instrument due to holdover from the days of minstrel shows and that it had become something of a cliche in country music, almost a joke. Then Scruggs auditioned and blew everyone away with his playing, and Monroe changed his mind.

I've also read contradictory accounts of how Monroe (and maybe Dr. Stanley too) felt about the term "bluegrass." At one time, Monroe told a d.j. to call his music country, not bluegrass, and at other times he said the opposite. I believe it had something to do with public perceptions and the target audience of different radio stations and venues in the '50s and '60s. There were times when calling it one name vs. the other would limit the chances of it getting airplay, so Monroe (and presumably other musicians) kept their terminology flexible. (Heck, I've read of Hank Williams' music being referred to as "folk," which we tend nowadays to associate with Guthrie et al.)


http://www.amazon.com/In-Country-Jou.../dp/037570082X

I think it an important piece of this "puzzle" is Ralph Rinzler....a Smihsonian intellect that persuaded Bill to let him manage him. Ralph and Neil Rosenberg did more to influence and awaken Bill to the position he occupied in the "founding" of the music. Bill became the Father of the Bluegrass Music during this period. The whole concept of this and his position and foundership were products of Ralph and Neil explaining to him the academic viewpoint from a folklorist standpoint and it wasn't lost on Bill the financial and promotional implications of such. I can remember being a young man and listening to my father, Neil and Ralph talking to Bill about understanding the greatness and potential of what he had done and still could do. I heard a lot more commentary on the stage about "the Bluegrass Music" and how such and such knew how to play the music right etc etc. He became the judge of the merits of someone's playing and whether is was to true to "the Bluegrass Music"

One person's perspective from his perch at Bean Blossom.

[mandopete]

Excellent point Gary - thanks!

[mandolirius]

I think it an important piece of this "puzzle" is Ralph Rinzler....a Smihsonian intellect that persuaded Bill to let him manage him. Ralph and Neil Rosenberg did more to influence and awaken Bill to the position he occupied in the "founding" of the music. Bill became the Father of the Bluegrass Music during this period. The whole concept of this and his position and foundership were products of Ralph and Neil explaining to him the academic viewpoint from a folklorist standpoint and it wasn't lost on Bill the financial and promotional implications of such. I can remember being a young man and listening to my father, Neil and Ralph talking to Bill about understanding the greatness and potential of what he had done and still could do. I heard a lot more commentary on the stage about "the Bluegrass Music" and how such and such knew how to play the music right etc etc. He became the judge of the merits of someone's playing and whether is was to true to "the Bluegrass Music"

One person's perspective from his perch at Bean Blossom.

There's very little doubt in my mind that Monroe wouldn't have the presence he does today were it not for the dogged and determined efforts of Rinlzer primarily, but Mike Seeger and others, including Bessie Lee Mauldin who pursuaded Bill to at least listen to these guys.

[Gary Hedrick]

Agreed .......Mike Seeger was indeed part of the process and no small part.....and yes Bessie worked on him and so did my father, who I believe Bill trusted a lot. One has to remember that "intellectual eggheads" were suspect.....they weren't trusted in the early 60's and perhaps up to 65 or so.....but inroads were made and the Grismans, Sprungs, Rothmans, Greenes, Rowans, Keiths of the world became trusted folks.
Heck as a Hoosier and then later on a college boy I wasn't always greeted with complete acceptance in the "bluegrass fraternity" of those times. Just remember the 3 R's of life in some small towns in Indiana ....reading, riting and Route 31 North.

[allenhopkins]

It was after Rinzler started working with Monroe -- heck, he even played bass in the Blue Grass Boys for a while -- that Monroe's Decca LP's started featuring Rinzler's learned liner notes, detailed session credits for each song, etc. Clearly, to Rinzler, Monroe was an "important musical figure" who deserved respectful treatment, full documentation, and consideration from a historical perspective.

Contrast Rinzler's presentation of Monroe and his music, with that given to Flatt & Scruggs, the Stanley Brothers, Jimmy Martin, and other bluegrass musicians; their recordings got a standard "popular country" treatment, with a bit of "folk music" emphasis thrown in to catch the college kid crowd in the early 1960's. You can get a bit of musicological context from a few of their albums -- F&S's Songs Of the Famous Carter Family comes to mind -- but in general their stuff was treated as less important and lasting than Monroe's. While Rinzler was involved, Decca went back to early-1950's Monroe sessions that had produced only single recordings, and included songs from them on LP's released more than a decade later. This allowed 1960's audiences to hear versions of the Blue Grass Boys that included Jimmy Martin, Carter Stanley, Sonny Osborne et. al.

Contemporary bluegrass listeners have the advantage (if they have the money!) of access to superlatively researched and documented recordings by firms such as Germany's Bear Family, as well as published discographies that trace the development of these bands' music. However, when LP's first came out, it was only Bill Monroe's that were treated as important and influential, rather than just commercially appealing.

[almeriastrings]

If had the chance to attend one historic musical event,it would be to be at the Grand Ole Opry when Bill & the Boys,along with Earl played their first tunes!

You can almost hear the jaws hitting the ground, even after all these years. That must have been one mind-blowing gig!

Especially for b*njo pickers!

[Mike Bunting]

Yes Alan Hopkins, all true. I have all the Bear Family stuff as well as all the Decca vinyl as well as a lot of taped stuff such as the 1966 show at the Gaslight in N.Y.C (and a tape of the workshop in the afternoon of that day.

[Mike Bunting]

You can almost hear the jaws hitting the ground, even after all these years. That must have been one mind-blowing gig!

Especially for b*njo pickers!

I think that it must have been like hearing Jimi Hendrix for the first time.

[mandolirius]

I think that it must have been like hearing Jimi Hendrix for the first time.

Yeah, I think it would be. I just watched the "American Masters" show on Hendrix and I can actually draw some points of comparison between Hendrix and Monroe. Strange, I know but there are actually some similarities, mostly in approach and attitude. The music definitely came first with both of them.

[Mike Bunting]

Yeah, I think it would be. I just watched the "American Masters" show on Hendrix and I can actually draw some points of comparison between Hendrix and Monroe. Strange, I know but there are actually some similarities, mostly in approach and attitude. The music definitely came first with both of them.

I can see that they had lots in common.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Almeria - When i heard Bluegrass banjo for the first time when i was 18 years old,i didn't know what i was listening to.How could so many notes be played so quickly & so smoothly & still keep the melody line going ??. I reckon that the folks at the 'Opry that night must have felt the same - they didn't know what hit them,& for me Earl's still the finest ever,still my banjo 'role model' for over 50 years of playing & no banjo player ever 'held the melody' like him (IMHO).
Allen - Ralph Rinzler also added a 'sort of' potted biography of Bluegrass music to the liner notes of the first 'Greenbriar Boys' LP as well. He wanted folks to understand where the music had originated from & from 'whom' it had originated. It was RR who brought Bill & the Boys to the UK back in June '66. The previous year,he'd brought a 'new discovery',Doc Watson over,
Ivan

[M.Marmot]

It's been interesting to read here some of the names and influences that helped form the Monroe/Bluegrass narrative.

As much as some people would belittle academics ('those who can't do teach' and all that) it can be seen from the commentary evolving here that academics were/are important in carving out and defining the importance of bluegrass, as an innovative American musical genre, and the importance of Mr. Monroe for the formation of that genre.

Its strange to think that a lot of the musical genres that might be mistaken as unmediated expression, or pure music, blues, folk, bluegrass etc. often owe their form and conventions as much to the academic, the archive, the thesis as they do to the musician, the inspiration, the expression.

[OldSausage]

Its strange to think that a lot of the musical genres that might be mistaken as unmediated expression, or pure music, blues, folk, bluegrass etc. often owe their form and conventions as much to the academic, the archive, the thesis as they do to the musician, the inspiration, the expression.

Can you give any examples?

[M.Marmot]

Can you give any examples?

Off the top of my head?

Hmm... probably can't do the argument justice myself.

From some of the accounts given in this thread it seems to me that Mr. Rinzler's voice had an important part in informing and influencing the reception of Bluegrass. Maybe i'm giving him too strong a credit?

I have mentioned this book 'In Search of the Blues: Black Voices, White Visions' http://www.randomhouse.com.au/books/...712664462.aspx before in other threads. In that book Ms Hamilton delivers a decent argument as to the influence of music ethnologists and record collectors in forming an audience and reception for the Delta Blues.

Maybe an argument could be made that current reception of blues/folk etc maybe influenced by their revival in college/university campuses during the sixties?

Maybe.

I don't currently have the wherewithalls to convincingly advance such an idea - but i would advocate that the audience reception is just as valid a factor as the musicians intentions when a genre comes to being defined.

[bjewell]

Can you give any examples?

That has been said about Muddy Water's band -- he made the music "Blues'" instead of playing the Blues.

I always thought Bluegrass and Heavy Metal had much in common -- I'm serious. Both take standard music forms and speed them up, add virtuoso playing and singing in a high register. Both have rabid fans and these fans have certain expectations of what is and what is not part of the genre...

[AlanN]

New release: Bill Monroe Plays Whitesnake plays AC/DC

[bjewell]

Alan gets it! ;- )

[OldSausage]

Off the top of my head?

Hmm... probably can't do the argument justice myself.

From some of the accounts given in this thread it seems to me that Mr. Rinzler's voice had an important part in informing and influencing the reception of Bluegrass. Maybe i'm giving him too strong a credit?

Maybe an argument could be made that current reception of blues/folk etc maybe influenced by their revival in college/university campuses during the sixties?

Maybe.

I don't currently have the wherewithalls to convincingly advance such an idea - but i would advocate that the audience reception is just as valid a factor as the musicians intentions when a genre comes to being defined.

Well, that's why I was interested in examples, because it's very hard to pin down. My take on what happens is that a bunch of people bumble along doing what they do for as long as they can and trying to make a living (Bill Monroe), and then eventually some trained genre-spotters notice and start pointing at it and gesticulating wildly (Ralph Rinzler et al).

I don't suppose Bill Monroe had many occasions to use the word genre throughout most of his life, and only people like critics and academics have the cultural capital to grant genre status. But critics only want to grant something genre status because they are already fan-boys, and Ralph clearly had the biggest man-crush on Bill Monroe. So I would argue that, sure, Ralph played his part, but Bill made him do it.

[mandopete]

Even newer release: Chris Thile plays Bach plays Gregorian Chants.

[jaycat]

. . . only people like critics and academics have the cultural capital to grant genre status. . . .

"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves."
--Brendan Behan

Just thought I'd throw that in there.