Trapeze tailpiece

[Dan of SC]

I've noticed on archtop guitars and GOM's most people use a trapeze tailpiece rather than a small one like mandolins. Is this to set the string spacing correctly or is there some other reason? Any help? Thanks , Danny

[multidon]

It seems like regular mandolin tailpieces are pretty common on flat top OM's so I suspect it has something to do with the arch. Perhaps the strings would touch the top of the instrument before getting to the tailpiece. Also a trapeze type of tailpiece would shorten the length of string necessary to fit although this should not be much of a problem. Another thought is that a trapeze tailpiece takes ball end strings rather than loop. Easier to find ball end in a pinch. Guitar strings could be used on the GOM if the guage were right or at least close.

[DPrager]

To me is seems that string spacing is mostly a function of how the bridge saddle is cut. The trapeze tailpiece is definitely a nice visual feature.

[bmac]

I suspect it just a matter of aesthetics on a mandolin. I can't imagine what advantage there would be..... other than a distinctive appearance..

[amowry]

I mostly started using them because I thought mandolin tailpieces looked too small on a GOM, but it is nice to be able to have the string spacing at the tailpiece be more or less the same as that at the saddle.

[Mike Conner]

For my GOM I used a trapeze tailpiece from WDMusic - 335 guitar short version T120SG. I replaced the brass 6-string anchor block with an ebony block drilled for the 8-string spacing for the GOM. My main motivation was to be able to use standard ball end guitar strings, and for cosmetic reasons. Worked out great.

[belbein]

I thought mandolin tailpieces looked too small on a GOM

Glad to hear you say this. It was just what I felt instinctively. I'm using a trapeze tailpiece on the acoustic bass I'm building, and it's only because aesthetically, it just feels right.

[luthierseye]

I suspect it just a matter of aesthetics on a mandolin. I can't imagine what advantage there would be..... other than a distinctive appearance..

The famed guru of stringed instruments set-up, Chuck Traeger, might disagree. His experience says that all parts should be free to vibrate which adds to the overall sound of any stringed instrument.
I’ve been reading one of his books and am seriously considering replacing the Allen brass tailpiece with a rosewood or ebony floating tailpiece on my flattop OM.
I thought I’d throw out the idea here and ask if anyone has had any experience with that idea.
So, whatcha think?

[Richard500]

See nearby post on harmonic suppression grommets - lotsa opinions about what happens aft of the bridge. Been thinking a little about how things like nylon guitars can have strings end at the bridge, which is glued down, versus violins where the long tailpiece is functional for a few reasons, to steel string guitars where the stress from the strings is hign and maybe will deform the top, unless the tension goes all the way to the back to...eventually, mandolins. And conservation of precious, expensive string materials.
Pretty sure that the various layouts do affect how a bridge moves, and therefore the sound.
Betcha we get opinions!

[John Cadd]

I`m glad you mentioned violins.I checked the other day on the length of string between bridge and tailpiece on violins.The accepted formula is one sixth of the scale length.
It seems reasonable to compare Mandolins and Violins. Maybe the weight or decoration of a tailpiece is not as important as that string length. i saw a few photos of mandolins with a piece of wood clamped across the strings in a position that might do the job. Easy enough to work out scale divided by 6 and put the wood there .No problems about changing strings or upsetting the bridge. An ideal chance for before and after checks with less accusations about "subjective delusions ".

[Caberguy]

I`m glad you mentioned violins.I checked the other day on the length of string between bridge and tailpiece on violins.The accepted formula is one sixth of the scale length.
It seems reasonable to compare Mandolins and Violins. Maybe the weight or decoration of a tailpiece is not as important as that string length. i saw a few photos of mandolins with a piece of wood clamped across the strings in a position that might do the job. Easy enough to work out scale divided by 6 and put the wood there .No problems about changing strings or upsetting the bridge. An ideal chance for before and after checks with less accusations about "subjective delusions ".

Just so you know, you're responding to a three year old post, which is itself a response to a post from 2013.

[John Cadd]

I`m glad you mentioned the age of this topic Caberguy . I think it must give you huge satisfaction to check on that .But is that a hangover from early days of the internet ? Does it not feel a bit old fashioned now. I have a Chess site that records games going back hundreds of years and the moves are still relevant now . This tailpiece topic might be useful to players when we are both six feet under . Early days on the internet it must have all seemed like a phone call chat to a mate in New Zealand. Novel and exciting but basically trivial . So information that is gradually acquired over a period of time (set your stopwatch Caberguy ) .Maybe 5 or 10 years would seem a long time but a useful clue could still be found like a diamond in the sand . Not a rant but a genuine question . Separating useful from trivial .If you tell us about going for a beer after todays message nobody will object to that . Maybe you could start objecting to that as a new project . Insert a smiley with a question mark here .

[John Cadd]

Caberguy relevant to reviving old topics is my question about News reports printed on current pages without dates. A towering inferno fire recently dragged in another fire next day .But that was in the middle east and 5 years ago . Not trivial but better with a date just for future reference. Keep the useful bits and throw away trivial stuff. The modern style of America shows a preference to lose knowledge and culture and live for today only .That`s a general impression about modern America which has a big influence on the internet and also the world . I don`t know if anyone here lives in America so it`s not personal .I don`t check that sort of thing or dates either very much .

[Caberguy]

I`m glad you mentioned the age of this topic Caberguy . I think it must give you huge satisfaction to check on that .But is that a hangover from early days of the internet ? Does it not feel a bit old fashioned now. I have a Chess site that records games going back hundreds of years and the moves are still relevant now . This tailpiece topic might be useful to players when we are both six feet under . Early days on the internet it must have all seemed like a phone call chat to a mate in New Zealand. Novel and exciting but basically trivial . So information that is gradually acquired over a period of time (set your stopwatch Caberguy ) .Maybe 5 or 10 years would seem a long time but a useful clue could still be found like a diamond in the sand . Not a rant but a genuine question . Separating useful from trivial .If you tell us about going for a beer after todays message nobody will object to that . Maybe you could start objecting to that as a new project . Insert a smiley with a question mark here .

Kind sir, I gently pointed out that it was an old thread. i did not shame you, I did not criticize you, I did not object. I do not disagree that old threads can be very informative.

The problem occurs when folks interact with old threads as if they are current, expecting responses from conversations that have long since run their course, or in some cases asking follow-up questions of members that have not been seen in ages, and wonder why they're not getting responses.

This is most common of members with low post counts, who are frequently new to the forum (I see that you are not, in fact, new to the forum, despite your low post count). Helping new members to understand the norms of the community is a courtesy that more experienced members sometimes offer.

You have taken offense to my comment. I am thusly chastised. On we go with our respective days.

[John Cadd]

I have not taken offense at all Caberguy but the "Old topic" thing is a;ways an unsolved question in my mind. I have tried on different forums to get the most up to date version and it seems a waste of time to look because the lists are never in date order .And whether they are relevant would need yet another search .I am assuming now that you are a moderator and I wondered how you managed to notice my out of date contribution ? Is that a programming trick? A general article elsewhere about reopening topics mentioned time limits and one idea was a cut off of one month. But here on this forum a cut off of one year could leave a barren desert ,especially if all the topic titles disappeared too . Maybe the AI machines could build in trivial versus useful headings and time dial if we had time travel ambitions . (Mind that arrow Harold ) .No that would be much too old .It`s an Evolution of the Internet that has to happen .It has to come .

[Jeff Mando]

conversations that have long since run their course

That is the nature of forum life. New people are asking questions that are new to them, but have been answered elsewhere many times. But, the info is still good.

I see the same 10-20 questions being asked over and over AND people keep responding for some reason.

I don't expect life-changing information, but still manage to learn something almost every day!

[PT66]

“What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.”
Ecclesiastes 1:9

[PT66]

I would like to find this kind of tailpiece.

[John Cadd]

I feel I need to apologise to Caberguy in case I made the wrong impression . The general article about forums explained that the social chat parts of forums had been diverted onto more modern things like facebook . Looking back to the 50s and 60s if you ever rode motorbikes the magazines would have maintenance articles that came round once every year . The bikes did not change designs so much then. But newbie riders would learn enough to keep their machines on the road. Safety tips must have saved lives as well .It might seem to be repetitive but like young children going to school they need the basic knowledge drilled into them. Now the system has almost been abandoned and magazines are for advertisers and showing off .
The tailpiece in the photo above (yesterday) makes me wonder how the size was worked out . Was it what "looked right" to the maker without a rule book to refer to ? In an ebay question about an old 12 string mandolin I asked what the scale length ,nut to bridge ,was in case it was longer than I wanted. The bridge was out of position and slanted .The answer came back "It`s a movable bridge, you can put it where you want ". So I left that one alone . No measurement was given .

[PT66]

John, as an amateur builder for 60 years I have realized that most musicians know very little about their instruments. In my youth I had an old student grade guitar with a movable bridge. I work very hard to get that bridge in the best possible position for intonation. I was taking a few lessons at the local music store. On day my “teacher” said “you can get a real cool sound if you do this” a moved the bridge an inch and a half towards the sound hole. I never went back.

Ideally the string should leave the tailpiece at the same spacing that you want the to cross the bridge. Unfortunately tailpiece designers don’t see it that way. The same with the other end. Ideally the strings leave the nut and go straight to the tuners (snake head is close).

[John Cadd]

I was surprised to see a photo of a Bandurria just now with a thin movable bridge. Imagine 12 steel strings .That`s some balancing act. Normally the bridges are glued down guitar style. In the back of my mind with movable bridges is Violin bridges that have a tendency to lean towards the fingerboard.Too far and they break. Up till then the intonation has been steadily getting worse without the player realising . I doubt if most violinists know by heart what the distance from fingerboard end to top of bridge is ,on their instrument . Neapolitan bridges are lower by the clever design of angling the belly downwards . So low I don`t think strings will put them out of position . Modern mandolin bridges are thicker and getting a bit too robust .(I think so ) But fragile or delicate translates as expensive in manufacturing .
Bandurria making at one time was in a sort of Darwin Evolution stage with the movable bridge photo and the wooden pegs were laid out in 3 rows.Outer layers of 4 and the centre 4 pegs had 2 turning left and 2 turning right .All tuned up without a mirror I hope . String spacing angles were recommended for violins but there was little danger of the bridge being squeezed backwards away from the scroll .String stretching always made the pull towards the scroll when tuning . But too much angle between strings will create a "structural tension " a bit like a section of a bridge. Maybe that`s just in my head . I expect spring mattress makers worked on that before memory foam arrived .