comparing quailty of instruments: why cant my cheapo keep up?

[mando farmer]

I am finding that in my playing I am reaching a plateau. But I don't think its me. I'm completing my second round through Mr. Grismans "Dawg Mandolin" from Homespun tapes, and I am finding that playing these tunes on my friends' $K++! Collings F5 is (obviously) way easier than it is to play these difficult tunes/melodies/phrases on my 50 dollar cheapo. In it's defense I had a pro set this one up and it plays great!... (for a cheap mandolin that I had to remove the top 11 frets from, in order to use the bottom 13...yeah, but it plays nicely now. it was still noticeably easier on a low end Kentucky. but why? why cant I hit three notes in a row on the cheapo? what gives the nice ones the sustain? stiffness of the neck , hardness of materials, workmanship,quality of wood, grain orientation, shape of stiffeners in the body, or a combination? or is that the quest of all luthiers ...to figure that out...tone and sustain ...etc? I have to pick almost every note. While on the Collings I can "play it right".
Why can't my cheapo mando keep up with these faster/ more complex phrases?

[Marty Jacobson]

"Responsiveness" is a vague term that I use in this case. "Playability" is easily measured with metrics like string height, bridge placement, string gauge, scale length, etc. But "responsiveness" is a little harder to describe. A well-crafted instrument goes beyond simple playability and provides a musical tool that allows you to stretch your legs.
It's the sum of all the pieces that went into the construction, and every element is an essential part of the system. The most important component of a good mandolin is not the wood species, weight of the tailpiece, placement of the tone bars, etc. It's the builder's care.

[sunburst]

You've just laid out the questions that started me on my "quest" to learn what makes a good instrument good and a great instrument great. It is what started me repairing, modifying, and eventually building instruments.
My advice; don't try to figure it out, you might become a luthier. Keep your day job (especially if you get a regular pay check and benefits(!!)), save your money and buy the best mandolin you can afford, enjoy it's tone and playability and remain blissfully ignorant of all the details of construction that make it the great mandolin that it is.

Alternatively, you can dive into these questions and spend the rest of your life trying to fully understand it all.

[David Houchens]

John, why didn't you tell me that back in "96"? Just Kidding. Its been a long fun ride. Thanks For letting me pick your brain all those years. Oh yeah, I probably ain't done pickin yet.

[JeffD]

Why can't my cheapo mando keep up with these faster/ more complex phrases?

Cuz its a cheapo.

[sunburst]

Tried to tell ya, David...

[bmac]

You might try the opposite and see how your friend sounds playing your mandolin.

Since you can make the $75 mandolin sound better by performing a luthier done eleven fret fretectomy on it, Why not try the same thing on his? If his sounds great now, with all its frets, just think how much better his will play with only 13 frets! Do it as a surprise. He will love you for it. He might even want to trade!

[Bluetickhound]

Ha! If only I could... i just have this compulsive nature that is forcing me to single handedly keep folks like StewMac and Roger Siminoff (among several others...) in business....

Edit: That was in reply to post #3

[Bluejay]

There in lies the danger of buying something really cheap to begin on. It's hard to play, hard to keep in tune and doesn't sound very good. It is easy to see why folks give up. You now realize there is a big difference in instruments. Get the best mandolin you can afford and play it the best you can.

[mandolinplucker]

Don't worry about it. Find something with a solid top. An A style carved top or flat top won't break the bank if you can find a used one. You don't have to spend thousands for something learn on. You just need something with good level frets and a straight neck with a good set up. Put back a few bucks every week and by the time you outgrow what you are playing you will have saved enough to upgrade. Then you will get MAS and the real trouble will begin.

[fscotte]

Cause you're not playing with a Bluechip pick!

[bmac]

I agree with the cheap new instruments will never improve in tone.

However cheap but old and beat up quality instruments are surprisingly easy to repair and can often return to good playability and good sound with a surprisingly small amount of work.

[Willie Poole]

I have often why some of these factory builders even make an "el-cheapo" when it wouldn`t take very much more time to make them real good and get more money for them...I understand that some of the hardware and materials are inferior to the top of the line mandolins but getting good materials shouldn`t be a huge problem...I`ve heard it said that a Gibson made Flatiron Festival is 99% the same mandolin as a Gibson made F-5G, why? the F-5G could bring in almost twice as much money as the Festival model....

I`m sure there must be a reason but I don`t know it....

Willie

[Eric C.]

I have often why some of these factory builders even make an "el-cheapo" when it wouldn`t take very much more time to make them real good and get more money for them...I understand that some of the hardware and materials are inferior to the top of the line mandolins but getting good materials shouldn`t be a huge problem...I`ve heard it said that a Gibson made Flatiron Festival is 99% the same mandolin as a Gibson made F-5G, why? the F-5G could bring in almost twice as much money as the Festival model....

I`m sure there must be a reason but I don`t know it....

Willie

Not everyone can afford an F-5G (probably the majority of us) but could probably afford the Flatiron. It makes no sense to only build the top end instruments only to have most of them sit in inventory unsold when they would probably sell 5 flatirons per F-5G made.

[Tom Coletti]

I have often why some of these factory builders even make an "el-cheapo" when it wouldn`t take very much more time to make them real good and get more money for them...I understand that some of the hardware and materials are inferior to the top of the line mandolins but getting good materials shouldn`t be a huge problem...I`ve heard it said that a Gibson made Flatiron Festival is 99% the same mandolin as a Gibson made F-5G, why? the F-5G could bring in almost twice as much money as the Festival model....

I`m sure there must be a reason but I don`t know it....

Willie

If they are 99% equivalent, then that's a serious case of brand-name-on-the-headstock markup.

Mandofarmer, with most products, the concept of "diminishing returns" is very much at play. The more money that you throw at something, the less drastic of a change it will make to the overall quality. From a $100 to $500 instrument, you'll see drastic improvements in quality. From $1K to $2K, there will be noticeable improvement, but less so. From $5K to $10K, improvement will be less discernible, and you gotta wonder how much you're actually getting out of your purchase, and in the case of mandolins, it's especially important to discern between cosmetic and structural/tonal differences.

Most consumers will want the most bang for their buck, so a good ratio of quality per dollar is highly sought after, sometimes more so than just quality alone. You'll find a lot of great instruments with solid, carved woods for not much more than your current mandolin. Eastman and Kentucky are often noted as great archtop mandolins in the lower ranges (the Breedlove Crossover is laminate back & sides but Breedloves have excellent playability), and you can find many great flat-top or travel mandos in that range as well. Red Line, Big Muddy/Mid Mo, and others offer great-value flattops.

--Tom

[sunburst]

...Most consumers will want the most bang for their buck, so a good ratio of quality per dollar is highly sought after, sometimes more so than just quality alone...

As long as it has points and scrolls.

[Steve Sorensen]

You've got one life to live. Every day you spend playing an instrument that doesn't thrill you is a day lost that you will never get back.

Steve

[bmac]

You've got one life to live. Every day you spend playing an instrument that doesn't thrill you is a day lost that you will never get back.

Steve

Oh, sorry, for a minute I thought you were speaking of my wife....

[Bertram Henze]

I had a pro set this one up and it plays great!... (for a cheap mandolin that I had to remove the top 11 frets from, in order to use the bottom 13...yeah, but it plays nicely now.

Let's put this in perspective: you have got a tractor and had it set up to be the best tractor around - but still you can't win a race at Indianapolis with it?

[Rob Meldrum]

Mandofarmer, you are exhibit A in my theory that it's fine for a beginner to start on a fifty dollar Rogue. For less than the cost of a couple of lessons you have found that you enjoy playing the mandolin and you have learned to differentiate and appreciate the different characteristics of different instruments.

It is now time to define your budget and go shopping. MAS begins. :-)

Rob