banjolin vs banjolele vs tenor banjo vs other?

[joni24]

Looking for information as to the differences in sound, playability, etc in the banjolin vs the banjo-ukelele vs the tenor banjo. For the sake of simplification let's consider that each instrument has the following characteristics and setup:
- 4 steel strings
- tuning of GDAE
- rim size: 8 inches or less
- open back

My ultimate goal is to find a light-weight, inexpensive instrument that has a somewhat mellow banjo sound (sorry for the oxymoron here!). Would be used for old timey, bluegrass and contra music.

[catmandu2]

The tenor banjo is highly versatile. It can cut like a trumpet, or muted with any number of techniques; very effective for "jazz" chord melody approach--with its clear voice and ample fretboard; provides rhythmic articulation, and the volume to play a dance. it's a potent tool which requires precision

I'd go with a standard rim ~10"- 12" (for TB) ... you might also get a resonator which you can also remove, You might also consider the CGDA tuning

[Tim2723]

The real oxymoron in your statement is a mellow bluegrass banjo sound. The banjo ukulele has a mellow banjo tone owing to its nylon strings. Never seen one work that well with steel and generally not suited to some of the music you intend. The banjolin has steel strings but is a raucous thing at best. Lots of fun though. The tenor banjo is easy to tune GDAE and has steel strings already, but it's not that mellow, and I've never seen one with less than a 10" rim.

If you were to string a tenor banjo with nylon in Irish tuning you would probably be close to your goals although it's a little bigger physically. Not sure how the BG guys would react to it. You'll probably have to use a gauge calculator and make up string sets from guitar singles, but that's no big deal. But as Cat infers, the tenor banjo is probably the route to take, making some kind of adjustments. The other instruments fall out of the equation for various reasons.

I'd use a 17 fret, open-back tenor banjo with nylon strings tuned GDAE with the nut and bridge adjusted accordingly.

If you want physically smaller I'd go with a banjo uke in low G tuning altered to GDAE like a mandolin.

BTW, hi Cat! Long time no hear.

[catmandu2]

BTW, hi Cat! Long time no hear.

Aloha! What are you getting yourself for xmas this year?

[Tim2723]

Two new flutes (and a partridge under glass).

[joni24]

The banjolin has steel strings but is a raucous thing at best. Lots of fun though.

Please define what you mean here... !? (loud, tinny, hard to play?) One key consideration for me is that it be light weight, since this new toy would be an add-on to the instruments I already carry around.

ps. Thanks for the replies so far!

[Tim2723]

Back to Joni,

Having given it a bit more thought, here's an instrument that just might fill the bill. It's a very affordable Gold Tone banjo uke. It's in concert size (most like a mandolin in feel). This one is an open-back, but mine is a resonator style with a closed back. If you re-string this GDAE (with available string sets in nylon), it will have the mellow but loud sound. It's really portable and has a good hard case. The quality of Gold Tone is very good. If you play it with a mandolin pick it's way more banjo sounding and loud enough to cut through a session or be picked up with a mic. You can't add a regular pickup to it, but some have had good results with soundboard transducers under the head. You can't add steel strings easily, as it has no0 truss rod and isn't resistant to steel strings. But nylon strings are what makes it mellow.

http://www.goldtone.com/products/det...cert-Banjo-Uke

[Tim2723]

Please define what you mean here... !? (loud, tinny, hard to play?) One key consideration for me is that it be light weight, since this new toy would be an add-on to the instruments I already carry around.

ps. Thanks for the replies so far!

Sorry, we were typing at the same time! Yes, I mean all those things. The banjolin is notorious for being a racously loud instrument. There's a famous clip where Dawg is playing one on a recording and Gerry turns to him and says "That's the most obnoxious instrument I've ever heard", or words to that effect. Banjolins are popular in Ragtime and other forms, but have a limited appeal today.

Seriously, a concert-size banjouke in Irish tuning would get you a long way toward your goals. It would basically be a mandolin with a mello banjo sound.

[joni24]

Yes, I think you may be on to something here... and the good news is that there are several stores listed that stock these within a 60 mile radius of my home. The new ones are a bit out of my price range, but there's bound to be some used ones out there somewhere (once I'm sure of what I'm looking for). Thanks for the recommendation.

[joni24]

Another question: what are the key differences in the soprano, tenor and concert banjo ukes? Can they all be tuned to GDAE?

[allenhopkins]

Another question: what are the key differences in the soprano, tenor and concert banjo ukes? Can they all be tuned to GDAE?

Soprano, concert, and tenor ukuleles (now, I'm assuming ukulele banjos as well) differ in body size and scale length, but are tuned the same. And I mean not only the same relative pitches, but the same absolute pitches. Standard uke tuning is GCEA, fourths-and-a-third, the same relative pitches as the top four strings of a guitar. Think of it as a guitar, capo-ed at the fifth fret, with only the top four strings in use.

Now, the Aquila "fifths tuning" uke strings that most people use to go to GDAE tuning are designed for a soprano ukulele. That's the shortest scale, and using them on the longer concert and tenor scales is going to mean putting more tension on them. They may break, though I'm not sure of that. Approximate scale lengths are soprano = 13 inches, concert = 15, tenor = 17, so you see there's quite a variation.

Here's a Ukulele Underground thread that discusses some issues relating to using the Aquila string set on a Mainland Pineapple instrument, which I believe is a soprano -- though Mainland makes a "long neck pineapple" with a soprano-sized body, but a concert-length scale.

[Jackflyn]

[QUOTE=allenhopkins;1234223]

Now, the Aquila "fifths tuning" uke strings that most people use to go to GDAE tuning are designed for a soprano ukulele. That's the shortest scale, and using them on the longer concert and tenor scales is going to mean putting more tension on them. ./QUOTE]

Aquila strings also come in concert length which are fine for tenors also. I use them on my concert, tenor and banjolele (which has a tenor scale, banjoleles come in all three scales). They also come with either high or low G strings. I would be wary of trying to tune the two treble strings up to mandolin pitch. It would require a six halftone rise on the E an eight halftone rise for the A. Sounds like a definite string break to me.

[mandroid]

[+1 of above] Banjo uke with the restringing to hit the GDAE violin pitched
the Aquila "fifths tuning" uke strings would work .. soprano uke scale ..

same strings on a longer scale you would still be able to tune in 5th

but it would be lower pitched FCGD EBF#C# DAEB, etc.

just have to learn the placement of the notes, they're there just in different places.

[joni24]

In shopping around I find varying prices for new banjo ukes. This looks like a particularly good deal, but I wonder about quality: http://www.adirondackguitar.com/uke/FMM-E-130_rh.htm (I would replace the strings with fifths tuning ones). I definitely want to try a few in person, but that won't be possible until after the holidays...

[mandroid]

Another to consider : http://www.goldtone.com/products/det...-Banjo-Ukulele

[Tim2723]

Joni, the one in your link is based on the 'Fluke' design. It's not bad, but it's an entry level instrument. Maybe a bit less than what you're after. If I read it correctly it's also a soprano which you would probably want to avoid. The one Mandroid linked to is also a soprano, but a very good one. Gold Tone makes their concert size banjo uke here:

http://www.goldtone.com/products/det...cert-Banjo-Uke

It has a plate resonator but it just unscrews to become an open-back. It comes with a quality hard shell case too. It will do everything you've asked. When you're finished you will have a portable four-string banjo that plays like a mandolin with a mellow tone from nylon strings. Because it is a concert size with a more robust neck and steel frets you can even experiment putting four mandolin strings on it. A soprano won't hold up to the steel strings, but a concert has a heavy neck like a mandolin.

If your experience is like mine, you'll leave the resonator on. I wish you could come to my house and try mine. It's exactly what you're describing and I think it would be perfect. You don't want to waste money on a toy, right?

[allenhopkins]

...I would be wary of trying to tune the two treble strings up to mandolin pitch. It would require a six halftone rise on the E an eight halftone rise for the A. Sounds like a definite string break to me.

Are you talking about the specific Aquila "Fifths tuning" soprano uke strings? These are designed to be tuned GDAE, or "mandolin pitch" as you call it. Agree that tuning GCEA strings -- soprano, concert or tenor -- up to GDAE ain't gonna work.

Aquila also makes "Fifths tuning" strings for concert uke, but these are designed to be tuned CGDA, like a mandola.

So I'm thinking -- based on specs, not personal experience -- that using the Aquila GDAE strings may not work on the longer-scale concert and tenor instruments.

[Tim2723]

Allen is correct. The Aquilla set is made to be tuned like a mandolin. You can also make up your own sets from guitar single strings. It's not as convenient, but know that ukulele strings last forever comparred to mandolin strings. I have uke strings that are five or six years old and are still perfect. They don't tarnish like steel.

Also, you've want to use a thin pick for the strings. A heavy mandolin pick imparts too much energy and you'll likely break strings. You don't need a lot of power for a banjo; they are loud all by themselves.

[Tim2723]

OK, I think I'm getting confused. The Aquilla fifths set that turns a ukulele into a
"mandolin-like instrument" is for a standard soprano ukulele (looks like a guitar). They are long enough to work on many, but not all, standard concert size ukuleles (little guitars).

A soprano banjolele requires longer strings to reach to the banjo-like tailpiece. A concert size banjolele needs even longer strings because of its greater size, and the tenor banjolele needs still longer yet. The Aquilla banjolel set is long enough but not the right diameters and cannot be tuned GDAE.

To do this you must buy nylon strings of the appropriate guages and cut them to length. There's a lot of waste but you don't do it very often. I can't recall the guages off hand, but they are the same as the Aquilla fifths set. You just need longer, not fatter. Does anyone have the guages for the Aquilla set handy? I can't find them.

You can buy Aquilla brand strings, but you do not have to. Other Nylon strings will work as long as they are the right diameter and length. Any nylon guitar strings will be more than long enough.

To proceed we must find someone who has a package of Aquila fifths strings or knows the diameters, or a link to that info. We then need to find Joni a source of single strings in those diameters.

Another possibility is that some members here have strung their mandolins with nylon strings. What did they use? That would also work on a concert size banjolele (I think).

[joni24]

Joni, the one in your link is based on the 'Fluke' design. It's not bad, but it's an entry level instrument. Maybe a bit less than what you're after. If I read it correctly it's also a soprano which you would probably want to avoid. The one Mandroid linked to is also a soprano, but a very good one. Gold Tone makes their concert size banjo uke here:

http://www.goldtone.com/products/det...cert-Banjo-Uke

It has a plate resonator but it just unscrews to become an open-back. It comes with a quality hard shell case too. It will do everything you've asked. When you're finished you will have a portable four-string banjo that plays like a mandolin with a mellow tone from nylon strings. Because it is a concert size with a more robust neck and steel frets you can even experiment putting four mandolin strings on it. A soprano won't hold up to the steel strings, but a concert has a heavy neck like a mandolin.

If your experience is like mine, you'll leave the resonator on. I wish you could come to my house and try mine. It's exactly what you're describing and I think it would be perfect. You don't want to waste money on a toy, right?

I hear you on "entry level", probably not what I want based upon past experience. I'm interested in hearing more about the drawbacks of a soprano vs a concert uke. Is it primarily that the neck isn't heavy enough to support steel strings? It would be nice to have the option of comparing the effects of nylon vs steel strings. What are the benefits of steel frets? (Pardon my ignorance, but I like to know all the variables before making a decision!)

Here's sort of an off-topic question: what kind of picking style do you use? I do a bit of McReynolds cross picking on the mando & am curious how this would sound on a banjo uke. Have you played around with finger picks? Any books or web articles that you (or others) can recommend on making a 4 string, fifths tuned instrument have a banjo sound?

[Jackflyn]

I didn't realize Aquila made so many strings: www.aquilausa.com

[Tim2723]

The reason I'm recommending a concert size banjolele is that the neck thickness, width, and fret spacing are more similar to a mandolin than a soprano. It's not an exact match, but a concert uke 'feels' more like a mandolin than a soprano does. Many, maybe most, soprano ukuleles have very thin necks. My sopranos have necks that are less than a half inch deep. They feel nothing at all like a mandolin in my hands.

To my knowledge, few if any ukuleles are made with truss rods in their necks because they simply don't need them with four little nylon strings. But many classical bowl-back mandolins don't have truss rods either. They do have more robust necks than a soprano ukulele though. A concert uke with its thick neck can hold up the the stress of light weight mandolin strings, the kind you put on a bowl-back mandolin. It's not ideal, but you can experiment with it. I have done it, but I never leave the tension on the instrument after I'm finished. Most ukuleles have steel frets, but some have brass. If you want to experiment with steel strings then you should have the harder steel, as the soft brass might be a problem against the steel strings. I'm not sure about that, but I would be careful. Steel strings might damage a soprano uke before you even get started.

If you think you might want to experiment with steel strings, pick a banjolele with guitar type tuners, not the simple peg type that are used on many traditional ukuleles. The geared guitar tuner will hold the steel strings, but the pegs won't do as good a job. The pegs on a banjolele aren't like the geared pegs of a modern banjo (known as planetary tuners), they are more like violin pegs that can be adjusted a little, but not enough for steel strings to work really well. Guitar type tuners solve all the problems.

If you re-cut the slots in a banjolele bridge to mimic the string spacing of a mandolin you can, with a little practice, use all the mandolin picking techniques to some degree. I've cross-picked it, but mostly I play chords and tremolo leads. For fingerpicking in a typical banjo fashion you would want to leave the string spacing wide like a regular banjo. You can just cut the extra slots in the bridge and move the strings around when you want to.

My banjolele is no longer strung like a mandolin. But I experimented with it like so many have so I know it works.

The main reason I recommend that Gold Tone concert banjolele is that it has all the features you'll need to do all this and more. I know because I've done exactly what you plan to do. It's an incredibly well made instrument and an unbelievable bargain, IMO. It's as close to a professional level instrument as you'll find in a banjolele at that price. It's no child's toy, it's the real thing.

[Tim2723]

BTW, for uke players reading along, my comments about putting steel strings on ONLY applies to banjo-ukuleles. The bridges of regular guitar-type ukes are not built to withstand steel srtrings. You would probably rip the bridge right off a regular ukulele no matter what kind of neck it has. Whenever I said 'ukulele' above, I meant banjo-ukulele or banjolele.

[joni24]

Just as a follow-on to this thread, I wanted to post my current status: I've gone ahead and ordered a Gold Tone concert banjo uke, which should be arriving sometime next week. I ordered it directly from Gold Tone in Florida, where they are setting it up for me with nylon strings tuned in fifths (low G, D, A, E). They are including extra strings along with the specks on them for future use. Can't wait!

[JeffD]

Just as a follow-on to this thread, I wanted to post my current status: I've gone ahead and ordered a Gold Tone concert banjo uke, which should be arriving sometime next week. I ordered it directly from Gold Tone in Florida, where they are setting it up for me with nylon strings tuned in fifths (low G, D, A, E). They are including extra strings along with the specks on them for future use. Can't wait!

Way to go! Keep us posted.