Mandolin leads to fiddle playing?

[Timmando]

I have always liked fiddle playing, and always thought that a fiddle player (or violin for those who've got culture) was the smartest in the band. It is one of the most difficult to play and the hardest to begin to sound decent. Now after learning some about the mandolin, because of the similarities to a fiddle, I am learning some fiddle tunes. Starting with the slow, simple tunes and the waltzes. Right now I am playing a fiddle song pretty much exactly as I learned it on mandolin. Has anyone else attempted learning the fiddle after starting on the mandolin? Any tips on what I should be practicing on the fiddle? Does the use of the bow change the way a song should be played (ie. instead of tremolo on mando, I pull a long bow stroke on the fiddle). How about the vibrato, how do you learn that? Youtube helps me some, but anyone have any tips on learning fiddle tunes? If I learn the fiddle, I will know for sure that the fiddle player is not the smartest in the band!

[F-2 Dave]

I started on mandolin and then picked up fiddle just a little later. If you have access to a good teacher, that would probably be the fastest way to learn. It's important to try to squash some bad habits early on. Youtube is a great resource. Do you play by note or by ear, or both? Fiddle players may or may not be the smartest in the band, but as long as there are drummers and banjo players, no one is going to question the fiddle player's intelligence.

[Jim Garber]

I learned fiddle and mandolin at the same time many decades ago. Unless you are talking about classical playing, don't worry about vibrato. Even baroque players AFAIK don't use it. Waltzes are nice but I would also work on some standard fiddle tunes. I used to use Arkansas Traveler as a great exercise in bowing patterns. The key, of course, is to play slowly but steadily. Use a metronome and try to keep your rhythms constant. I also heartily recommend getting some one-on-one lessons. Lastly, listen as much as possible to fiddle players on recordings, videos and esp in person. Find multiple recordings of different fiddle players playing the same tune and see what they do with it in terms of bowing and phrasing.

As far as the left hand goes, try to maintain proper intonation as you play.

There are definite similarities with the approaches for mandolin and fiddle but I definitely play the tunes differently depending on the instrument.

[Timmando]

F-2Dave...I play by ear. Once I get the melody in my head, I go by that. What are the bad habits that need to be squashed early on? BTW...good point about drummers and banjo players!

Jim...I hear the vibrato used in alot of the slow waltzes that I am trying to learn. Amazing grace, ashoken farewell, tennessee waltz, all have long bow draws that ask for vibrato. For fast bluegrass fiddle tunes, I see what you mean, but I am not there yet, and may never be. I will work on arkansas traveler on the fiddle as you suggest, I have found that to be a good one for mandolin workouts also. I do use a metronome, as well as playing along with slowed down songs via The Amazing Slow Downer. You're right on about different fiddlers, same tune. I am listening to hear how they handle a song compared to mandolin. The long bow strokes make things alot easier so far. Some fiddlers are way out there melody wise, others all melody. I am more melody driven right now because it is the first thing I learn, maybe later I will learn enough to make a song fancier. For intonation I am using the fiddle fretter stick on, until I get the bowing working better. It is a good learning tool for me. I might buy a real fretted fiddle eventually, still trying the stick on out.

http://www.frettedfiddle.com/

http://www.frettedviolins.com/nippon.htm

[catmandu2]

Does the use of the bow change the way a song should be played

In general, to be succinct--the use of the bow changes everything

I started on fiddle long before I did mandolin, but it wasn't until I started playing mandolin--and acquired a double case--that I began really developing on fiddle: the double case let me bring my fiddle along wherever I brought my mandolin--which was everywhere

Here's more discussion: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=109

PS- the smartest guy is the bass player (or pianist)

[UsuallyPickin]

Well ... I played mandolin about twenty years before I picked up fiddle .... mandolin playing gave me a good grounding in chord structure and how what chords work together in what keys which translated in fiddle to good double stop understanding and how to play behind a song I don't know when one pops up at a jam session. Bows are not picks and using one is so totally different as to be considered a different language . Fretless is another issue entirely also...... On vibrato imagine a string attached to the back of your noting hand gently pulling and then easing off, so your finger is leaning slightly into / forward and then back on the string ..... slowly in a relaxed manner.... also have a slight space between the base of your index finger and the "E" string side of the neck.. this in classical terms would be a wrist vibrato ... there is also an elbow vibrato in classical music but the only thing I know about that is the name .....Good vibrato is tough to learn be patient it will really enrich your tone on those slow pieces ... R/

[Jim Garber]

IMHO vibrato is not necessary at the stage you are at. I don't hear the tunes asking me to do it. Actually I think it is almost more difficult to play slow tunes sweetly than it is to play faster reels.

I would concentrate on bowing patterns and intonation even on slower tunes. I am not even sure if violin pedagogy dictates learning vibrato in the early stages. Get thee to a teacher in any case and set up some sensible practice regimen if you are able to do so.

[BlueMt.]

I took up fiddle after many years on mandolin. My biggest problem is playing tunes on the fiddle that I already know, like I play them on mandolin, which makes them sound less fiddly. :-) As far as vibrato on slow songs, I use finger vibrato similar to what I use on guitar.

I must say the fiddle is a frustrating instrument but well worth the investment of time and energy. Good luck!

[Pete Martin]

If I had known I'd need to quit the mandolin for 15 years to get decent on the fiddle, I may not have done it. Be prepared for some frustration!

You may want to look at my page on ergonomics for fiddle players, can make the job much easier to accomplish.

http://www.petimarpress.com/fiddle%2...%20videos.html

[Brandon Sumner]

I am finding myself toying with the idea of fiddle as well! Hmmm.....

[Cue Zephyr]

I've recently picked up the mandolin again and said to myself I was going to practice much and hard to be able to play it the way it was intended (not like a guitar playing trying to play a mandolin). Right now I asked to borrow a violin which is not in use right now. I hope to start soon.

If I had known I'd need to quit the mandolin for 15 years to get decent on the fiddle, I may not have done it. Be prepared for some frustration!

You may want to look at my page on ergonomics for fiddle players, can make the job much easier to accomplish.

http://www.petimarpress.com/fiddle%2...%20videos.html

Interesting. I found them yesterday, watched one half and watched the other half today. Excellent videos, even before having picked up the instrument!

[Nevin]

As a bass player who has fun with mandolin trying out the fiddle is a seductive idea. It would be a hell of a lot easier to carry around.

[F-2 Dave]

As a bass player who has fun with mandolin trying out the fiddle is a seductive idea. It would be a hell of a lot easier to carry around.

Truer words ne'er been spoken. It's good to be the fiddle player.

[padawan]

[

I am finding myself toying with the idea of fiddle as well! Hmmm.....

As a bass player who has fun with mandolin trying out the fiddle is a seductive idea. It would be a hell of a lot easier to carry around.

Go back while you still can! I restrung my wife's fiddle one day when I had more free time than she did then noodled with it a bit ...and now I want to "fiddle" with it all the time.

I can do little more with it than annoy the cat at this point but I feel it pulling on me.
I must admit that it is a fun instrument to experiment with.

[Jack Roberts]

In Japan the owner of Ikegaku Mandolins told me mandolin was for people who are too old to learn to play violin. When I asked how old that would be, he said older than 10. I took that as a challenge, so at 55 I started learning violin, after playing mandolin for about 6 years.
I definitely enjoy mandolin even more because I've learned to scratch on a fiddle, plus there are a lot of tunes for the fiddle that sound great on the mandolin.
The only tip I can offer is get a teacher, preferably one who plays both mandolin and fiddle.

[Joe Mendel]

Last year my 11 year old sarted taking violin lessons, the teacher told me if I had a violin I could tag along (with the purpose of helping Matt practice at home). Long story short, Matt quit taking violin and I am still scratching away in the lessons. It is very challenging to say the least, but addicting as well. It is a fascinating instrument, no wonder it's called the devil's box.

[SincereCorgi]

Get a teacher, try them for a few lessons, and then determine whether you need to get a better teacher. Violin is way, way more demanding on fundamentals than mandolin. Based on my own experiences, I would suggest getting a hardass classical teacher and doing it properly for a while, which means devoting the majority of your practice time to method pieces and etudes. It's not fun, but if you can get through the first couple Suzuki books and some Wohlfahrt, the fiddle tunes will feel a lot easier. They won't take care of themselves or anything, but they will be easier.

[Petrus]

As a bass player who has fun with mandolin trying out the fiddle is a seductive idea. It would be a hell of a lot easier to carry around.

Have you tried EUBs? (electric upright bass) -- Some of them are nothing more than a long stick with strings and are quite portable. I'm fascinated by them but can't afford one right now.

http://www.hemage.com/

http://thinkns.com/instruments/eubass.php

[Petrus]

Violin was my first instrument ... I played in the school orchestra when I was about 10. It's easy to play poorly and hard to master. I picked it up again as an adult but I think I can play better than the $100-level instruments I've been using, but I can't afford a proper violin. The cheapos I've been using sound like plywood and are frustratingly difficult to keep in tune. I'm considering a quality electric violin like the one by NS Design (http://thinkns.com/instruments/violin.php), but my recent mandolin obsession has taken up most of my time.

I agree with others who have said to find a good teacher who specializes in violin, but not necessarily classical style -- some of them are quite prejudiced against anything else (and bristle at the term "fiddle," not to mention the very thought of holding it against your arm rather than under your chin.) Also, save up for a quality violin. The price range and quality is similar to that of mandolins; maybe you can find a quality one for under $500. Avoid sub-$100 instruments.

[padawan]

Have you tried EUBs? (electric upright bass) -- Some of them are nothing more than a long stick with strings and are quite portable. I'm fascinated by them but can't afford one right now.

Or, for extreme portability, get a Kala U-Bass. They have many varieties from fretless electric to acoustic (with a pickup). They sound amazing and are the size of a baritone ukulele.
LINK: Tal Wilkenfeld playing around with U-Basses

...Also, save up for a quality violin. The price range and quality is similar to that of mandolins; maybe you can find a quality one for under $500. Avoid sub-$100 instruments.

Another option is to rent a violin. The price of admission would be much lower while you try your hand at it and once you've played a rented one for a few months you'll probably be equipped to make a better choice on an instrument purchase.

[Jack Roberts]

Last year my 11 year old sarted taking violin lessons, the teacher told me if I had a violin I could tag along (with the purpose of helping Matt practice at home). Long story short, Matt quit taking violin and I am still scratching away in the lessons. It is very challenging to say the least, but addicting as well. It is a fascinating instrument, no wonder it's called the devil's box.

Ukulele is challenging and addicting as well!

[Nevin]

Have you tried EUBs? (electric upright bass) -- Some of them are nothing more than a long stick with strings and are quite portable. I'm fascinated by them but can't afford one right now.

http://www.hemage.com/

http://thinkns.com/instruments/eubass.php

I have tried a couple them but they just don't have the same effect on me as an acoustic. Many are not set up like an acoustic making bowing unrealistic. The better ones cost as much as a decent acoustic. I do play bass guitar so if I have to be easily portable that is the route I go.

[ronwalker49]

I have always liked fiddle playing, and always thought that a fiddle player (or violin for those who've got culture) was the smartest in the band. It is one of the most difficult to play and the hardest to begin to sound decent. Now after learning some about the mandolin, because of the similarities to a fiddle, I am learning some fiddle tunes. Starting with the slow, simple tunes and the waltzes. Right now I am playing a fiddle song pretty much exactly as I learned it on mandolin. Has anyone else attempted learning the fiddle after starting on the mandolin? Any tips on what I should be practicing on the fiddle? Does the use of the bow change the way a song should be played (ie. instead of tremolo on mando, I pull a long bow stroke on the fiddle). How about the vibrato, how do you learn that? Youtube helps me some, but anyone have any tips on learning fiddle tunes? If I learn the fiddle, I will know for sure that the fiddle player is not the smartest in the band!

I started playing violin in the School Orchestra more than 50 years ago and have kept at it my whole life, so it doesn't seem that difficult to me....The Mandolin however has given me fits my entire life...I am currently deeply involved in my 5th attempt to learn to play this amazing, but to me very tough instrument....Don't get me wrong, the only thing that mystifies me about the mandolin, is how to play fast enough to do anything meaningful...I have never been able to gain enough speed to play fast fiddle tunes or breakdowns...
I am an accomplished guitarist, play the Banjo both 3 finger style and claw-hammer, as well as Dobro...But what I want more than anything musically is to play mandolin.. If I can ever get to where I can play it well, I probably will not fool with any of the others very much, if at all...

[catmandu2]

Have you tried EUBs? (electric upright bass) --

I have tried a couple them but they just don't have the same effect on me as an acoustic. Many are not set up like an acoustic making bowing unrealistic. The better ones cost as much as a decent acoustic. I do play bass guitar so if I have to be easily portable that is the route I go.

EUBs are fantastic for arco (bowing)--that is, the ones designed as EUBs rather than electric upright guitars (must have reasonable facsimile of the string bass bridge, and neck, etc.-- rather than a guitar bridge, etc). Ergo EUBs are very good for arco, and pretty inexpensive (I got mine for $600)

But as you've noted, they certainly lack played pizz--and are wholely different beasts than an actual stringed bass

[catmandu2]

The Mandolin however has given me fits my entire life...I am currently deeply involved in my 5th attempt to learn to play this amazing, but to me very tough instrument....Don't get me wrong, the only thing that mystifies me about the mandolin, is how to play fast enough to do anything meaningful...I have never been able to gain enough speed to play fast fiddle tunes or breakdowns...

That is a bit mystifying, ron. With your experience with both guitar and violin, I would have guessed mandolin coming quite quickly.

I assume the problem is with the right (picking) hand. What happens when you play a fiddle tune on your violin--using a "shuffle"-bow? (up/down per note). Have you thought of your pick in this way? Do you ever try to flat-pick the guitar?