Is there a place for percussion talent in BG-inspired music?

[Kcadams1980]

Hi all,

I've just picked up learning to play the mando, and what I'd really like is to collaborate with some of my family/friends on bluegrass "inspired" folk music. One of my brothers is an exceptionally talented drummer/percussionist (seriously, he can play anything rhythm related), and we've always wanted to jam together on something original.

Clearly there's a de-emphasis on drums/percussion in a lot of folk and BG music... But do any of y'all know of artists who have been able to incorporate a real rhythm section with folk string instruments, successfully? My bro is a working metal drummer (irony, I know), so he's not going to be interested in ####### around on a single kick drum...

Thoughts?

[DataNick]

The Osborne Brothers used a drummmer/percussionist in their band at times and so did Jimmy Martin. It's really up to you and your interpretation of the music you want to play.

[terzinator]

In bluegrass, the mandolin IS the drum.

I don't think you could call yourself a "traditional" bluegrass band with drums, but that's no reason not to use one. Leftover Salmon plays great bluegrass music and uses drums.

Go for it.

[theCOOP]

I don't know about drums & bluegrass, but there are two or three Atlantic Canadian celtic/folk bands that I lostinterest in once they incorporated drums. The only one that immediately comes to mind is the Irish Descendants.

With that said, there are plenty of folk-based bands of varying influence that have drums and are just fine in my book; The Pogues, Dropkick Murphys, TheTossers, Mumford & Sons, The Decemberists...

In bluegrass, the mandolin IS the drum.

I don't think you could call yourself a "traditional" bluegrass band with drums, but that's no reason not to use one. Leftover Salmon plays great bluegrass music and uses drums.

Go for it.

Bluegrass isn't exactly "traditional" anyway is it? Isn't it just a bastardisation of old-time music? Maybe I'm wrong but I'd replace traditional with authentic.

[mrmando]

Yes, there is a place for percussion TALENT in bluegrass-INSPIRED music.

Most people I've heard trying to play percussion in bluegrass don't have any talent. And there's a point at which it stops being bluegrass when you add percussion, but don't let that stop you.

The first thing for a percussionist to learn is dynamic control. Can't play behind acoustic instruments if you don't know how to play softly.

You'd probably want to stay away from a full trap kit and use a djembe plus some small toys.

[Kcadams1980]

Wow, seems like this is a hot button issue! Pardon my ignorance...

I'm not really interested in playing traditional BG, as our (mine and my brothers) influences are so varied. I've just noticed that even in BG "inspired" folk, there is little emphasis on drums or any other percussion instrument (marimba, vibraphone, etc) for that matter. The fact that the mando "is" the drums in most bg, was part of what really drew me to the instrument, as I'm so familiar with rhythm-based music.

My bro is a classically trained tympanist when he's not playing doom metal on drum set, so he's definitely not a "meathead" and knows how to play a more nuanced style. He's actually excited to do something different - but I was just curious if their were any GOOD percussionists in a BG/old time/folk tradition to use for ideas. Thanks for the suggestions all!

[Kcadams1980]

Btw theCoop, I'm a HUGE dropkick Murphy's fan - love the Celtic/punk/folk fusion.

[Marvino]

Hi all,

I've just picked up learning to play the mando, and what I'd really like is to collaborate with some of my family/friends on bluegrass "inspired" folk music. One of my brothers is an exceptionally talented drummer/percussionist (seriously, he can play anything rhythm related), and we've always wanted to jam together on something original.


Thoughts?

Well you mentioned bluegrass inspired folk music. Forget about rules and have fun and have your brother play the "Cajon" box drum. They make a "snare cajon" that sounds awesome.

[Cue Zephyr]

I wouldn't hesitate to drag a cajon plus a few small percussion items to such a jam. The cajon is my go-to percussion instrument and it fits really well (IMO) in acoustic-based music. I still need to get myself a pedal for the cajon so I free up one hand to use other percussion instruments like a shaker. And there's tambourine-like things you can strap to your foot as well as pedal rigs to play a tambourine with the foot.

I find the cajon by itself to be just a little too 'spacious', I always feel like it needs at least a shaker to complement it.

A lot you can do there.

[MikeEdgerton]

What you play in the privacy of your home or on stage at your local venue is pretty much up to you. You can get away with whatever the folks in the audience will tolerate. They might even enjoy what you're doing (with or without percussion). My favorite quote about one of my bands was an introduction we got from a bluegrass radio DJ when he said "I guess you could call them a bluegrass band..." I will however offer this advice. Don't ever think that the spoons are a percussion instrument and never step into a jam at a bluegrass festival unless you have really thick skin. This isn't because of the spoons really, it's more because people who had no clue decided they could just step in and jam with anyone. When it happens it really gets ugly.

[mandolirius]

Don't worry about references to The Osborne Bros. or any other traditional bluegrass. There have been some uncomplimentary uses of drums in bluegrass over the years, but that was decades ago. Besides, it sounds like tradgrass isn't your thing anyway. Martin makes a good point about talent. A lot of people think they can add something with drums or some other percussion instrument and most of the time they can't. However, it doesn't sound like that's a worry for you either.

Personally, I think there's lots of room for percussion in acoustically-oriented music. I'm listening to an album called "One Left Shoe" by Ben Winship (a GREAT album, BTW) that features some very tasteful percussion instruments, including a tabla. That's an instrument I've actually worked with in an acoustic ensemble and it blended very nicely. One thing I really want to do is form a traditional appalachian oldtime band that features a percussionist. There's a natural rhythm that's already in that music and I would love to hear how a really good percussionist would work with that. I'm convinced it would sound great.

So I just want to encourage you to go ahead and try it. I can't see any reason not to and you may really like the result. All music has to grow in order to survive so do your part to preserve acoustic music.

[terzinator]

Bluegrass isn't exactly "traditional" anyway is it? Isn't it just a bastardisation of old-time music? Maybe I'm wrong but I'd replace traditional with authentic.

Tru dat.

[Don Grieser]

Sam Bush has a drummer in his band. Almost all the "bluegrass" bands that play at Telluride have drummers. There's even some percussion on Del's latest album. Do whatever sounds good to you. You don't need anyone's permission.

[tablaninja]

My group loves bluegrass, Appalachian music and, wait for it…North Indian Classical music. I mainly play tabla and other percussion but discovered mandolin recently and can't put it down. Here are a few examples of what we're up to. Definately not traditional Bluegrass by any stretch but we have a blast!

http://youtu.be/G9mdbG5KM9M

http://youtu.be/tuztTDsQovE

[Jim Garber]

I play from time to time in a neo-old time band that plays for contra dances. We have had a drummer in the band and people have loved to dance to us. of course it really does help that the drummer is an avid contradancer who understands what dancers like.

Try it out and have fun... why not?

[Astro]

Well of course. Percussion done well (to fit the piece) goes with any genre. If it sounds good, it is good.


(BTW tablaninja thats some great stuff you guys are doing.)

[DataNick]

As I said in post#2, it's really up to you...even Earl Scruggs played with a percussionist; and this performance has electric guitars and piano as well!

[mandobassman]

Drums can tend to be a bit overwhelming in a traditional Bluegrass band. However, many bands have used drums successfully. Some of bands have already been mentioned. Many of the big names of the first and second generation bluegrass bands used drums at some point over the years, with the exception of Bill Monroe. Several bands today are using drums, at least in the studio. Sam Bush, Del McCoury and Doyle Lawson have drums on recent recordings. I played in a traditional Bluegrass band in Houston for several years and we decided to add a drummer at one point and even though we drew a lot of negative comments from purists, everyone said we sounded better with the drum. I say drum, and not drums, because we only used a snare drum with brushes. I have never been a fan of a full drum kit in Bluegrass. It's too easy for the drums to overtake the acoustic instruments. Our drummer went on to play a couple of years with The Karl Shifflett and Big Country Show. They sounded great with him playing. Once again, he only played a snare. Bottom line is, it's your music. Play it how you want to. I respect peoples' taste, but when it comes down to your music, there are no rules.

[Kcadams1980]

Great responses, all! I know my brother has a tabla and a few other hand drums already, but the cajon is something I've never heard of! Need to check it out.

[OldSausage]

This isn't because of the spoons really, it's more because people who had no clue....

Actually I disagree. It is ALL about the spoons.

[Mike Bunting]

As I said in post#2, it's really up to you...even Earl Scruggs played with a percussionist; and this performance has electric guitars and piano as well!

Sort depends on the quality of musicians doesn't it? Albert Lee, Vince Gill, Marty, Jerry, etc. They would make a John Denver song sound passable. The only downside in that band was Randy Scruggs on the electric duck, what a horrible sound.

[mandocrucian]

But do any of y'all know of artists who have been able to incorporate a real rhythm section with folk string instruments, successfully?

Sure. Check out some of the Nordic folk and folk-rock outfits like Vasen, Varttina, Gjallarhorn, etc. etc. Often these groups will have the drummer playing a hybrid kit which is at least 50% comprised of ethnic drums.

There are plenty of UK/Irish bands of past and present which have used percussion, drums, or full kit. One of my all-time favorite bands (sadly disbanded), Flook, consisted of two flutes, guitar and percussion - they had a great sound! http://www.allmusic.com/album/haven-mw0000347568

Bodhran in plenty of Irish bands. 5 Hand Reel ( a Scottish band from the 70s) went a different route and used military style snare drumming. The Woods Band had a full kit but influenced by a bodhran sound. Mr. Fox was a unique English band with their own approach to drums in the mix.

Check out the world-fusion-jazz quartet Oregon; they had a percussionist (Colin Walcott). My favorite album of thiers was "Out of The Woods"
http://www.allmusic.com/artist/orego...1870/biography

Dan Hicks and the Hot Licks was an acoustic outfit, and singer Maryanne Price would play a snare with brushes. By the last album "Last train To Hicksville" they had added a full-kit drummer.

Railroad Earth is one of the best of the new acoustic-semigrass outfits; they have a drummer. http://www.allmusic.com/album/amen-corner-mw0000787377

I could probably list several dozen recording bands, in various genres that have /had drummers or percussionists. It's only an aberration (to use drums) when it comes to southeastern American music like old-time and BG. But hey, the Cajuns use drums/percussion, so do the Tex-Mex bands.

Forget the "bluegrass" categorization/description - just think about what you want to do as acoustic (or unplugged) folk-rock or unplugged country-rock. For a kit to be used with an acoustic ensemble, I'd suggest a small cocktail set, or a rockabilly set. Snare, hats, kick, maybe a tom and a cymbal or two; no need to go ala Neil Peart (Rush) or Nick Mason.

Personally, I'd rather play with a bass and drummer than I would with guitar and bass (if I had to pick only two instruments). In the current outfit I've been playing with, we've got a full kit drummer plus a conga/percussionist. (It ain't "grass", folks!) Sometimes it's electric; sometimes more acoustic.

Now, there are folks that are really down on drums, and it's because in their particular genre, drums aren't used. Or, they've never really played with drums, or never played with a good drummer. And in all three cases, I'd have to say that they don't really know what they are talking about.

Niles H

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually I disagree. It is ALL about the spoons.

Yeah, you're probably right.

[Petrus]

I thought the bass was the percussion in BG, as it is in string jazz (which also shuns drums.)

If you're going the traditional route, a more appropriate choice would be the bodhran, used in some Celtic traditional. Celtic seems to be the direct ancestor of U.S. folk and BG.

[foldedpath]

Btw theCoop, I'm a HUGE dropkick Murphy's fan - love the Celtic/punk/folk fusion.

Forget the Celtic "fusion" and go for the real thing: Irish 'trad!

Have your brother search YouTube on this guy, and John Joe Kelly, and the word "bodhran":