Is there a place for percussion talent in BG-inspired music?

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I will admit, the banjo player on Sweetheart is no John Hartford, but he is pretty good.

[ralph johansson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPrmwNgbxk

[Mike Bunting]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPrmwNgbxk

Out of sight!

[mrmando]

I love how the kids are watching the whole thing, but the men pay attention only during the drum solo...

[fishdawg40]

I will admit, the banjo player on Sweetheart is no John Hartford, but he is pretty good.

Actually, I just read on wikipedia that it is John Hartford. Pretty cool stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweethe...#Track_listing

[Givson]

I wish Andy Statman would play at my Bar Mitzvah! What a great and eclectic musician he is.

[AlanN]

Yes, he is. Was just listening to Bromberg's 1972 Demon In Disguise (for the first time in YEARS) and Andy is all over that, on mandolin and a variety of saxophones. Great record, with many musicians - Grateful Dead guys, Kenny Kosek, Andy, female vocalists, others.

What cracks me up about the Andy video above are the kids, just hanging around and watching.

[mandocrucian]

Clogging with rattlesnake maracas -

authentic mountain percussion!

[Wolfmanbob]

Marty Stuart uses a percusionist playing brushes. Sounds just fine. They have to have good judgement.

[AlanN]

Clogging with rattlesnake maracas -

authentic mountain percussion!

One of them handlers must play a snakehead...

[Relio]

Sure, there is a place, but don't show up to an unfamiliar bluegrass jam and start playing the drums! LOL

[Perry Babasin]

Roland White posted a video on YouTube featuring the Byrd's playing Rolling in My Sweet Baby's Arms with his late brother Clarence playing a hot solo on a very cool looking and sounding mandolin. They seem pretty inspired playing what seems to be something approaching Bluegrass. I believe they fit the criteria!



OOoops, except no drums...

[Mike Bunting]

I don't care either way but I have to admit that I'm curious as to why the need for people to call any music with an acoustic instrument in it bluegrass.

[Nick Triesch]

Proper Bluegrass should not have guitar lead. Bill did not allow it. So how come so many folks say "No Drums!" But lead guitar is OK now. Seems like a double standard to me. Sno

[Laird]

Roland White posted a video on YouTube featuring the Byrd's playing Rolling in My Sweet Baby's Arms with his late brother Clarence playing a hot solo on a very cool looking and sounding mandolin. They seem pretty inspired playing what seems to be something approaching Bluegrass. I believe they fit the criteria!

I'm a big fan of the Byrds, but that line-up evolved pretty dramatically. Chris Hillman was the only original member with bluegrass experience, though Gene Clark and Michael Clarke later ended up playing some bluegrass-inspired music. But after Chris left, it was pretty much Roger McGuinn leading a tribute band. I have a hard time even thinking of them as "the Byrds." (No disrespect to Clarence and Roland!)

[ralph johansson]

Proper Bluegrass should not have guitar lead. Bill did not allow it. So how come so many folks say "No Drums!" But lead guitar is OK now. Seems like a double standard to me. Sno

Not clear what one thing has to do with the other. Also seems most people here are open to the possibilities of percussion in BG in spite of misguided attempts in the past.

Here are some instances of lead guitar on Monroe's records:

1954: Cheyenne (Jackie Phelps)
1955: Used to Be, Brown County Breakdown (Charlie Cline)
1958: Panhandle Country (Edd Mayfield)
1978: Golden River, Those Memories of You (James Monroe)

[ralph johansson]

I like this one (and that’s Carey Harmon on the drums)...

Very nice groove and excellent choice of tempo. With typical YouTube quality it's hard to hear what exactly the drummer is doing. I hear the snare and the cymbal, and I see the hi-hat moving. But the drumming is far superior to what you hear on, e.g., Flatt&Scruggs records from the 60's.

[ralph johansson]

I thought the bass was the percussion in BG, as it is in string jazz (which also shuns drums)

John Jorgenson has been using a reduced drum set in his wonderful "world manouche" music, snare, splash cymbal, hi-hat, hand percussion (on one tune the drummer places a tambourine on top of the snare, which he plays with his hands).

Svend Asmussen has recorded and toured extensively with a quartet comprised of his violin, acoustic guitar, bass and a full drum kit. In 1965 he recorded with Stephane Grapelli, two guitars, bass (N-H Ørsted-Pedersen, then 19) and drums (Alex Riel)

[allenhopkins]

I don't care either way but I have to admit that I'm curious as to why the need for people to call any music with an acoustic instrument in it bluegrass.

In deference to the OP, she did say "BG-inspired 'folk music.'" Not straight bluegrass.

[Mike Bunting]

In deference to the OP, she did say "BG-inspired 'folk music.'" Not straight bluegrass.

I wasn't responding to the original post per se, just a more rhetorical question of a phenomenon that I've noticed.

[J.Albert]

[[ Proper Bluegrass should not have guitar lead. Bill did not allow it. ]]

I wouldn't say that.

Mr. Monroe supposedly asked Clarence White if he would join the Bluegrass Boys at some point. But Clarence said no.

I wonder what the Bluegrass Boys would have sounded like with Clarence picking lead ...

[jesserules]

"Is there a place for percussion talent in BG-inspired music?"

Sure.

[allenhopkins]

Proper Bluegrass should not have guitar lead. Bill did not allow it...

But he wasn't above playing a bit of "lead" guitar himself:



Recorded 1940, and I think he handed Clyde Moody the mandolin on this cut. Of course, you can't hear what Moody played...

[Gan Ainm]

Just Saw the Steep Canyon Rangers, one of my favorite Bluegrass bands in Charlottesville, and was ehhhr...shocked... to see and hear they had a drummer playing a wooden box and snares. The loud womp of the box exactly duplicated the bass and the snares-almost- exactly the chop of Mike G. a wonderful mando player. So the effect was... LOUDER. To me it detracted from the rhythmic subtlety of acoustic instruments. They were also doing more jam band noodling (at a high level of course) and to me seemed to be re-inventing themselves as the String Dusters. Which is a shame because they were great as the Steep Canyon Rangers. I love acoustic fiddle inflected rock going back to Fairport Convention for party music but it's not what I'm looking for in a BG band and especially not in one with such masters of harmony, beautiful string sounds and virtuosity as the SCR.'s. Of course the usual disclaimers apply.... taste is taste, they are free to explore what they want or appeal to whoever is paying the bills etc. etc. But for people looking for acoustic music, be forewarned.
Larry Keel sat in on the guitar and did a fine job. There was a lot good music, the SCR's didn't suddenly "suck", just not a direction I enjoy as much.

[ralph johansson]

I have seen skilled mandolinists use their instrument to provide the percussion beat where needed. It sounds just like a well done hand drum.

And a well played hand drum can sound just like a a skilled mandolinist playing percussion rhythms. So whats the difference? The music is in the sound, not the look. If you close your eyes and cant tell if its a drum or the mandolin...well whats the argument?

Nostalgia, I guess ?

Not sure what looks has to do with it; to me a record will sound the same whether I keep my eyes closed or open. And anyone who could confuse a mandolin with a hand drum - not that I've ever heard the use of a lone hand drum in BG - would have to be tone deaf. My own impression is that drums or drumming (mostly a lone snare drum) fits very poorly in a strict BG groove, especially in a fast 2/2. Here's one example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoMYOzX71Mw

It's a very odd performance, very insensitively produced. E.g., the bass is panned to the far right and barely audible. Can you hear the guitar? On some of Jimmie Martin's records the snare tends to cover the guitar, here I don't hear it at all - wouldn't be surprised if Flatt was not present on this session (incidentally, I don't think he was present on the Foggy Mountain Banjo session, either). And after a few choruses the fiddle pops up out of nowhere. At least on YouTube I can't hear it behind the banjo or dobro.

I suspect it's examples like this one that have shaped people's views on drumming in BG - because it's poor drumming. As I've already noted most of us seem to be open to the possibilites of drums; actually if the OP's group avoided the 160 bpm (cut time) flagwavers, and slightly redefined the role of the bass, guitar and mandolin, to fit in with the sound of the percussion (certainly not just a lone hand drum or cajon) they might enliven and enrich the genre.