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Thread: Martin Style 6

  1. #26
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    I am working with a jeweler and engraver to see what he can do. He showed me some examples and all were done freehand. Some were quite ornate. He says that there is practically no market for such a thing but we are seeing what there is. I think there is an interest in the quality of craftsmanship.

    Bob A: have you posted pictures of your 6 here? I don't recall seeing them. I did read of it being held hostage by one of our favorite luthiers.

    BTW I also find it hard to read the serial number but it seems to be on the inside neck block and reads either 913 or 813 either of which would put it squarely in 1901, according to the Martin list. Eugene's consummate knowledge is again verified!!

    Speaking of artistry, here is the pickguard.



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    Jim

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  2. #27
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Congratulations, Jim! Looks like a beautiful instrument.

    As to that bridge - wow! I cannot even begin to fathom how I would ever be able to "repro" one of those without some (?) kind of intricate and sophisticated power engraving tool. But then, I suppose that in 1901 they did those things all by hand. Yikes, it boggles the mind! Do I understand correctly that the saddle is a separate part? I hope so, because it looks like the string grooves are quite worn down. The ivory bridge I saw on the Martin Style D or E or whatever it was that I got to examine and play in November was in one piece, but a lot less ornate.

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  3. #28

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    Congrats, Jim! I hope it sounds as gorgeous as it looks.

    And, say... the American Federation of Musicians is looking for a full-time negotiator for its Symphonic Division. Ehm... you interested?
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  4. #29
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (bratsche @ Jan. 22 2004,13:12)
    Do I understand correctly that the saddle is a separate part? #I hope so, because it looks like the string grooves are quite worn down. The ivory bridge I saw on the Martin Style D or E or whatever it was that I got to examine and play in November was in one piece, but a lot less ornate.
    This is the standard bridge design for higher-end instruments of the period. My Vega has an ebony version with a bone (or ivory) saddle. I actually have a Leland flatback that has the same type of bridge. It is a very clever design because it allows the bridge to dictate the spacing of the strings but the saddle to dictate the height.

    I think I will string this up with the ultralight Calaces to check neck angle and sound. I am wary of the effect on the table crack but will lower the tension and get me (quick) to a luthiery.
    Jim

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    Alas, Jim, I am not digital-capable. My daughter did gt me a digial camera for Xmas, but I have no proper ports etc. A real shame, as I have a roomful of gorgeous instruments with which to fan the flames of desire. (Well, perhaps I exaggerate; too, TC has a few of my toys in various stages of resurrection.)

  6. #31

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    Mighty tasty, Jim. One thing I love about Martin's engraving is that it was cut to varying depths to simulate a three-dimensional effect. For comparison, look at the cuts in a Gibson engraving job; they can be executed very neatly at times, but they are all to the same depth and look somehow "flat" in comparison.

  7. #32

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    1901 Style 4, anyone?

  8. #33
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Eugene @ Jan. 22 2004,14:52)
    1901 Style 4, anyone?
    Examining all these higher end Martins, what astounds me is the variety of these instruments. Each one seems different in terms of inlay and engraving patterns, even within the same style.
    Jim

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  9. #34
    Registered User Mark Levesque's Avatar
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    How would you describe the sound of these Martin bowlbacks?
    Mark Levesque and Judy Handler
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  10. #35
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Since this is my first one, I will leave the answering of Mark's query to Eugene and Peter K and the two Bobs, and any of the other Martinians who have much more experience. Mine doesn't have strings yet, tho will prob by tonight.

    Jim



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  11. #36
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    Bravo, Jim!

    A beautiful instrument that has found an ideal home - what could be better?

    As for the tone of Martin bowlbacks, having only 1 bowlback of any brand, I have nothing equivalent to compare it to. To me, my Style 5 is "what a bowlback sounds like." In a more general comparison against flatback instruments of roughly the same age, I'd say brilliant but not strident, delicate but not weak. Mine has a strong treble that's bell-like and clear. The bass courses aren't as meaty as a modern carved back, but they shouldn't be. They're clear, with a rounded tone. Balance across strings is very good. right now, I have a set of good-fer-nuttin' GHS classicals on it that aren't even fresh and are reluctant to stay in tune, so it's by no means sounding its best. Perhaps more because of the tonal balance than sheer decibels, this thing projects really well. It isn't a soft-sounding instrument and it tolerates a considerable dynamic range very well. You can barely touch the strings and they'll speak clearly or you can play them considerably more forcefully and they don't seem over-driven. So a full range from soft to very penetrating sounds are all available. But I should really let others with far more experience of bowlbacks describe what is distinctly Martin.
    Bob DeVellis

  12. #37

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    I've had a few different American bowlbacks, but they were so different that my experience isn't all that useful.

    One was a Stahl which was very loud and bright with a percussive attack and long shimmering sustain. I've heard someone say that the Larsons' bowlbacks bridged the gap between Italian and American sounds; I haven't played an Italian bowlback, but I can say it bridged the gap between bowlbacks and mandolin-banjos nicely.

    Another was a very small, light Vega - much quieter, less bright, generally "friendlier" especially when it came to smoothing out lousy tremolo. The diametrical opposite of the Stahl. My Martin (a late 6a with extra-plain top decoration) is somewhere inbetween - bright but in a way that I'd describe as juicy rather than strident. It seems easier to draw a pleasant tone out of it than it was with the others.
    Peter Klima (not the hockey player)

  13. #38

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    I guess my experience is similar to Peter's and Bob's. #The Martins I've handled and the couple I've owned all seemed to consistently lack that brassy, twangy clangor that comes with many bowlbacks (especially cheaper American pieces of the early 20th c.); Martin tone is well balanced, strong on pitch, and short on twangy noise. #Usually this produces a sweet but focused tone that is strong on the principal. #This went too far in a 1915 style 2 I owned, which was just too thin and bright without any bassy richness; I sold it a couple years ago. #My favorite mandolin in all the world to play and hear is a one-of-a-kind 1908 Martin similar to Peter's 6a. #It's really hard for me to assess this particular piece objectively. #Dr. Dave Cohen has graphically analyzed its modes of vibration to bypass my subjectivity, but I have no idea how to analyze such stuff. #With any luck, he'll publish those images in an article and tell us all what the h*** they mean. #Carlo Aonzo played my Martin and said "This is very good."




  14. #39

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    I have had but a cursory acquaintance with Eugene's Martin at Carlo Aonzo's latest New York Workshop; I bypass the sad story of my having rushed in, mando-less, from a last-minute bass engagement. Short version: Eugene, ever kind and generous, let me play his Martin while he played guitar for one number.

    Based, then, on that very brief exposure: Eugene's Martin was quite the nightingale; bright but round (i.e. not brittle), resonant but not blaring, focused but not tight. It was a true pleasure to play; if I am not mistaken, it had Lenzners on, the kind with wound A-strings.

    I know full well that my, ehm... ornithological analogy does not pass muster with the more sober, scientific minds on this board but I must stick with it. The tone-quality of a (quality) Italian is more like a cooing turtledove: more warm than brilliant, more intimate than "stage-y", more "I've something sweet to tell you" (to quote the oooooold, parlour song) than TA-DA!!!

    Along those lines —and in my usual tendency to digress— I must bewail the misdirected efforts of some present-day luthiers to make concert-grand (pianos) out of their finely wrought mandolins. Personally, I don't really care to see cooing turtledoves mutate into operatic divas. I like both but, ehm... in different circumstances.
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  15. #40
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    It sounds like we are in a need of a meeting of the Bowlback Alliance for the ultimate bowlback tasting. One possibility, at least for those of us in the US, would be at CMSA in Philadelphia this fall. What do you all say?

    BTW I have to envy Eugene, Bobd, Victor and Peter for their skill and eloquence at describing sounds coming from these contraptions. Once I get mine up and running I will attempt it, depending on how much luthier TLC it needs. Stay tuned.



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    Not only a mandotasting: we could stand to standardise the vocabulary as well, to close the distance between the subjective and objective realities. And of course such a meeting would be an ideal place to establish a consensus relating the vocab to the instruments.

    With luck I might have a baker's half-dozen bowls by fall, in playing order. And Philadelphia is a few hours' drive for me. Certainly worth considering.

  17. #42
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Bob A (and anyone else)...

    While you are in the neighborhood, why not make the trip up to NY for a weekend of fun and frolic at Carlo Aonzo's Mandolin Workshop? Could be mando-madness week. #

    Jim



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  18. #43

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    Today must be the day for me to paraphrase old songs but, yes, I, too, have had Philadelphia on my mind. Problem is, C.M.S.A. will happen a weekend apart from The Next Coming of Sr. Aonzo, and I definitely want to attend that.

    Add to this the obvious fact that weekends are prime time, employment-wise, for us musicians, and my chances of dodging work for TWO weekends in a row are pretty bleak. Good grief, I could barely do so for ONE, last time around, and missed 25% of Carlo's wisdom!
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    Earlier in this topic there was mention of a "VG Price Guide." What is it?
    Dean

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    "Vintage Guitar." I tend to think the values it prints are a bit of optimistic inflation.

  21. #46
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    In general, the VG Price Guide sometimes overvalues and sometimes undervalues. It is, of course, just a guide. Prob the4 value of the bowlbacks are overinflated. On the other hand, the values in the Guide are for instruments in excellent original condition.

    I have yet to find any bowlback I have bought off eBay, for instance, that didn't need some help from the luthier's touch. Perhaps this is because they are such delicate creatures.

    Jim



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    Here is a front shot of my Vega. Jim and I have corresponded some and from the look of his tuner plate, I'd say the engravers were all working against at least a master drawing since his Vega plate is nearly identical to mine. Unfortunately, I lost the string pin cover and what is on it is an un-engraved replacement.

    I was delighted that the case I got from Lark, works so well for this beauty.

    BTW - the bridge is typical - what you are seeing is heavy shadow from the sun streaming through the door at the headstock end of the instrument (which is lying on the floor).




  23. #48

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    Very nice, Gary. You should post a series of images in the "post a picture" section. There is a bowlback thread there already that features a few nice Vegas.

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    I'm new here and its only been a week. I did post a sequence over there - the one above was prompted by the close-up at the top of this page.

    I sort of have been running down and jumping into older threads as a result of my search for a case for the Vega (which has a happy ending, with pictures in the Equipment area).

  25. #50

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    I saw. It was lovely there too. I thought it might enrich the chat (and help perpetuate the thread) here. I consider you to be one lucky Gary; your Vega is very attractive and looks to have been lovingly maintained and artfully restored.

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