Flatiron F5 chocolate

[Steve Martin]

I have a Flatiron F5 which I bought new in 1994. This is the chocolate model, signed by Bruce Weber, and has tone bars, not x-bracing. It's a very nice mando and I always receive compliments from other pickers.

It's my understanding that this model was produced at the same facility at which Flatiron was building Gibsons. I've been told that the Flatiron F5s and the Gibson F5s were the same mandolins, just different labels. Can anyone tell me if this is this true, or is my mandolin's design related to the previous Flatirons (pre-Gibson)? Or, to restate this, was the Montana facility producing Flatirons built to Flatiron specs and Gibsons built to different, Gibson specs?

Also, I'm curious as to anyone's opinion about the build quality of the Flatirons of this era. Were they fairly robust (I guess I'm thinking about the top thickness) when compared to mandolins currently being produced by say Gibson or Weber?

[fatt-dad]

It likely has a mortise and tenon neck joint.

f-d

[JAK]

Steve Martin! I thought you had a Gibson Lloyd Loar?

[DataNick]

I have a Flatiron F5 which I bought new in 1994. This is the chocolate model, signed by Bruce Weber, and has tone bars, not x-bracing. It's a very nice mando and I always receive compliments from other pickers.

It's my understanding that this model was produced at the same facility at which Flatiron was building Gibsons. I've been told that the Flatiron F5s and the Gibson F5s were the same mandolins, just different labels. Can anyone tell me if this is this true, or is my mandolin's design related to the previous Flatirons (pre-Gibson)? Or, to restate this, was the Montana facility producing Flatirons built to Flatiron specs and Gibsons built to different, Gibson specs?

Yes, my understanding is that in Bozeman they were built in the same facility but to Flatiron/Gibson respective specs, so Flatiron F5s of that era were not identical to Gibson F5s. The Nashville Flatiron F5s were for all intensive purposes identical.

Flatiron enthusiasts tend to segment the mandolins into the Carlson Pre-Gibson era, Bozeman-Gibson era, Nashville-Derrington era, then the pac-rim models. I'm not sure of what differences there might be between the Carlson Pre-Gibsons and Bozeman-Gibson Flatirons...but there many threads out there on the Cafe that talk about those things.

...Also, I'm curious as to anyone's opinion about the build quality of the Flatirons of this era. Were they fairly robust (I guess I'm thinking about the top thickness) when compared to mandolins currently being produced by say Gibson or Weber?

I believe the consensus is that the build quality was very good.

[Wolfmanbob]

Just noticed this thread. I am a rabid Flatiron enthusiast, having a "94 myself. I seldom play anyone's mandolin that beats it, including some of the top mandolins made. I think this period was absolutely tops for Weber and Flatiron.

[Gina Le Faux]

I have a 93 chocolate brown Flatiron F5 mandolin signed by Bruce Webber. It has tone bars and it's a fantastic mandolin and I love it. My understanding of the Bozeman built mandolins is that both the Flatiron and Gibson mandolins were built side by side by the same team of makers with the same materials. The differences being the neck joint on the Flatiron mandolins was different to that on the Gibson mandolins and of course the headstock logo was also different too.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Steve - Being the very accomodating guy that he is,i'd bet that Bruce Weber would answer your question directly if you were to e-mail him for the info. I don't know much about the Bozeman Flatirons,but they seem to have a good reputation on here.However i have played a 'Bozeman built' Gibson signed by Bruce Weber which i doubt would pass muster with many players. Apart from a very poorly set up pre-war Gibson F4 belonging to a friend of mine,it was the single worst mandolin i've ever picked up. Due to the good reports regarding the Flatirons of that era,i've always suspected that the build quality of the Flatirons was better than that of the Gibsons.By that,i mean Bruce et al continued with their Flatiron build standard,whilst also building Gibsons the the 'Gibson standard',which might not have produced such good instruments. I must express my ignorance to a degree,but it was the excellent quality of the Flatirons which caused Gibson to buy them out in the first place. I suspectthat like most things,there's good & less good amongst the instruments produced during the different periods,
Ivan

[Wolfmanbob]

I agree with Ivan 100% on the comparison between Flatiron and Gibson of that era. Also that Gibson bought them out with the ultimate goal of putting them out of business. In my opinion, present day Webers do not measure up against those Flatirons. Maybe some at the top of the line do. I wonder why. In general, they are priced appropriately, just below the next level of premium instruments. Perhaps this was the niche Weber was looking for. I think they are really excellent for the price, but again, not up to the level of those tasty Flatirons.

[Alex Orr]

I have no experience with Flatirons, but I love chocolate bursts - IMO they're not used often enough.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Bob - One day maybe,i'll get to play a good Flatiron mandolin just to hear for myself why they are so popular. However,don't under-estimate the current Webers. It was Bruce's thinking on build standards along with that of the other Flatirion guys,that created such good instruments in the first place. I think that Bruce & indeed Paul Schneider,(Summit),took a lot of the 'Flatirion thinking' with them when they began their own companies. However,to qualify my remarks,there will still be good &/or better / less good instruments amongst them,as in most things. I always regarded my Weber "Fern" as a good mandolin,however since i changed from J74's to DR MD11 (mediums) strings,it's a whole new instrument. I'm not pushing DR strings,but 3 friends of mine (Cafe members) who have tried them recently as a change from J74's,have all expressd their surprise re.the power of these strings. The point i'm making is well know to all of us - their will be certain string / pick combos.which get more out of our instruments than others. So,a Weber mandolin with J74's will sound good,but mine with it's DR's sounds like a totally different class of instrument. I've simply been lucky to discover the best strings for mine,
Ivan
PS - The mandolins belonging to my 3 friends, are 2 Summits & one Heiden "A" style.
Also,to the OP - my apologies for the slight diversion. As Bruce Weber,the maker of my mandolin, was one of the main men at Flatirion,i thought that his current instruments were worth the mention.

[Steve Martin]

Thanks everyone for your responses. The music store where I bought my Flatiron, Dayton Band, didn't have any in stock when I was in the market 20 years ago, but the owner said he was going to order one and we worked out a deal where he sold one of my Gibson A1s on consignment and applied the proceeds to the price of the new Flatiron. Anyway, I was a little disappointed when the Flatiron arrived at the store since I was expecting a sunburst finish, not the plain brown. (I thought he was ordering a Master or Artist model.) However, I liked the way it sounded and loved the neck, so I made the plunge.

I've often wondered how the Flatiron employees felt about making both Gibson label and Flatiron label mandolins and whether they might have taken a little more pride in the Flatirons given that it bore their old company name.

A buddy of mine used to have a Gibson A5 from the same era, and side by side, my Flatiron sounded a lot better. The Gibson was kind of dead in comparison. Of course, the condition of the strings could have had something to do with it.

Steve

[Wolfmanbob]

Ivan, if you ever get to Long Island, give me a ring and play mine. PS, I have played some great Webers. I just think that those Flatirons from that period were out of this world.

[Ken Waltham]

My first good mandolin was a Flatiron F5 Artist, which I ordered two of, directly from Steve Carlson. Both were fabulous instruments. Later, I bought a Master Model, which was signed by Dennis Balion. Again, a great F5.
Then, I bought a Gibson F5L, from the same factory, signed by Carlson, and, truthfully, it was not as good as the Flatirons. I sold all those mandolins through the years, but, just received a 1987 Flatiron F5 Artist a couple of days ago. I had hoped they were as good as I remembered them, not just fond memories, so to speak.
I tuned it up with the old strings on it, and, it sounds great.
Amazing wood throughout, hand done stain, and really clean work, I love it. Side bound like the July 9 F5's, this is one good mandolin that didn't break the bank.
I am pretty much a Gibson nut case, but, I think this may be a better mandolin than any modern Gibson, including MM's.
At the very least it is the sonic and quality build equivalent.
Hurts just to say that.

[pheffernan]

I am pretty much a Gibson nut case, but, I think this may be a better mandolin than any modern Gibson, including MM's. At the very least it is the sonic and quality build equivalent. Hurts just to say that.

Is there any particular era of Flatiron that is more revered than the others?

[JAK]

Spotted a Flatiron F5 Artist model at Carter's Vintage Guitars. Looks like a good price?

[Dave Wrede]

i've got 3 Flatirons; 1 F5 (Bruce Weber signed), 1 Festival A (currently out on loan), and a recently obtained A mandola. i'm at work so i don't know the years of any of them. You could say i'm kinda fanatical about them. Having Montana-made instruments, living in Montana; you get the picture. i constantly get remarks on them, how good they sound, how cool they look. i don't think i'd ever sell or trade them out.

[DataNick]

...I am pretty much a Gibson nut case, but, I think this may be a better mandolin than any modern Gibson, including MM's.
At the very least it is the sonic and quality build equivalent.
Hurts just to say that.

Ken,

It's funny that you say that! I am a Gibson head as well(the mandolin sound I prefer), who owns 2 Flatirons with my 3rd (Nashville Festival F 2001 model) on hold.

I was talking shop with a West Coast instrument dealer on the phone a few days ago and he said that the Nashville "Derrington" models usually are really good, and that he's heard a few that sounded better than Gibson Master Models...

[DataNick]

Is there any particular era of Flatiron that is more revered than the others?

Pat,

I'm not sure but the Carlson Pre-Gibson Flatirons have a stellar reputation. The Bozeman-Gibson (Flatson per Fatt-dad) era Flatirons are regarded as generally good but not as good as the pre-Gibson Carlsons. And The Nashville "Derrington" era Flatirons seem to be consistently of high quality and sound...Those are the impressions I've gotten from reading a lot of threads and playing several, and owning 2 of them.

[Wolfmanbob]

I generally concur here, with 1994 roughly being at the epicenter of quality. The quality after Gibson took over held up for a short time and then fell off in my opinion. Again, I kind of feel it was kind of by design because I think Gibson's plan was to phase out the competition that they had acquired. At any rate, the greatness of the Flatiron Mandolin is just beginning to be appreciated in the history of mandolinity. A greatness that burned bright for only a short time...alas!

Pat,

I'm not sure but the Carlson Pre-Gibson Flatirons have a stellar reputation. The Bozeman-Gibson (Flatson per Fatt-dad) era Flatirons are regarded as generally good but not as good as the pre-Gibson Carlsons. And The Nashville "Derrington" era Flatirons seem to be consistently of high quality and sound...Those are the impressions I've gotten from reading a lot of threads and playing several, and owning 2 of them.

[DataNick]

I'd love to have this Carlson, pre-Gibson 1984 F5 specimen

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/73130

I even have an ex-instrument dealer friend who lives in Europe (the Azores) who could possibly make the purchase, but that buggaboo re: disposable $$ gets you every time!

[Ken Waltham]

I think the best ones are the early Montana made styles, without a doubt. That one in the UK would be a gem. The one I just bought has the most amazing rims and back you can imagine. That is one thing that has always stood out to me about them.
And, really clean work. I would have to say the mid to later 80's are the ones I would be interested in. Before they became too "Gibson". They changed colour too, to be more like the Gibsons. I much prefer the old brownish, goldish colour they were.
They were hand stained, and it really shows.
Yep, they are the best mandolin in that price range, IMHO.

[DataNick]

Spotted a Flatiron F5 Artist model at Carter's Vintage Guitars. Looks like a good price?

That's a fair price for what the market bears for those. You definitely need to play before pay though. I've played 2 Flatiron F5 Artist models, a friend's 1995 and Rick Albertson's which I think is a 1994 Signature model. Rick's was very nice, a "keeper", the 1995 was good, but didn't knock me out, but to be fair the action was real low and he had thin, old strings on it. I'd like to give it another test run with the action raised up a bit and with J75s. Remember those are X-braced as well...

[pheffernan]

I'm not sure but the Carlson Pre-Gibson Flatirons have a stellar reputation. The Bozeman-Gibson (Flatson per Fatt-dad) era Flatirons are regarded as generally good but not as good as the pre-Gibson Carlsons. And The Nashville "Derrington" era Flatirons seem to be consistently of high quality and sound...Those are the impressions I've gotten from reading a lot of threads and playing several, and owning 2 of them.

Thanks, Nick. I knew that there was a lot of love for the Pre-Gibson (1987) instruments as well as the Nashville era (1997) ones, but I was less clear about the decade in between, which seems to have some ardent fans in this thread.

[mandotrout777]

I was talking shop with a West Coast instrument dealer on the phone a few days ago and he said that the Nashville "Derrington" models usually are really good, and that he's heard a few that sounded better than Gibson Master Models...

Oh how I hope I hear it this way. I have a 2001 Nashville Flatiron Festival F on its way to me on 48 hour approval. I have zero experience with them except for sound clips and reputation. It was scheduled to be here yesterday but the nasty weather in the southeast caused it to be delayed in transit.

[DataNick]

Oh how I hope I hear it this way. I have a 2001 Nashville Flatiron Festival F on its way to me on 48 hour approval. I have zero experience with them except for sound clips and reputation. It was scheduled to be here yesterday but the nasty weather in the southeast caused it to be delayed in transit.

If that's the one that MandoMutt had, Congrats! I think you got a winner!

I had my eye on that one till my friend agreed to "hold" his 2001 Flatiron Festival F for me to purchase in a couple of months...