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Thread: Laminated back and sides bad?

  1. #26
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZ View Post
    ...if the instrument is going to spend considerable time in hot/humid settings (e.g., Central/South Florida, the Caribbean, whether outside, in cars and boats) whether laminates probably would be more durable and tolerant than the carved, solid wood instrument, and thus a better choice when that environment can't be avoided...
    Basically agree with your "simple logic"; laminated back and sides should be less subject to the vicissitudes of temperature and humidity swings -- up to the point where excessive heat/humidity cause "de-lamination," i.e. the glue joining the various layers of wood lets go, and the top laminate detaches. In a dry environment, laminated wood's less likely to split along grain lines from moisture loss, since frequently the grains of the various laminate layers are deliberately put at angles to each other to avoid that very issue.

    High heat/humidity is another problem, but by the time the lamination glue was affected, you'd probably have a bunch of other problems: the solid wood top would have swelled, other glue joints would have softened, perhaps the neck (especially if it's mahogany) might have lost some rigidity and been warped by string tension.

    If at all possible, avoid any prolonged storage of the instrument with temperatures over 100ºF, and you might want to take a look at the Taylor Guitars "tech sheet" Symptoms of a Wet Guitar. Though it's devoted primarily to guitar care, I've found it helpful.
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  3. #27
    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    As I mentioned earlier, there are zillions of old laminated Gibsons out there, and they've managed to keep that dirty little secret to themselves for decades.

    I should think if well-done laminated wood in guitars was particularly vulnerable to temperature and humidity, even a little, we'd know about it by now.

    Among the other main historically important brands that used laminated woods for sides and backs are Bohmann, who pretty much only built this way, and Selmer, which did it for other reasons. Here are some of Bohmann's cast iron lamination molds:



    Mario Maccaferri prescribed the laminated body to go around his original internal resonator simply as a strong, lightweight protective shell, and to keep the player's body from damping the back of the resonator. As it turned out, the Selmers stayed with the laminated bodies (there were a few solid ones) and the internal resonators didn't stick around. In the final analysis, the laminated Selmers were extremely light and strong, and sounded great. Their collective three plies were half as thick as the usual Gibson.

    One other line that's long had laminated sides and backs is Guild.

    The only laminated guitars I've encountered over the years that had delamination troubles were the tops on really low-end Japanese and Korean flattops, and Kay guitars, cellos and basses.
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    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Sounds like it might be just right for your intended use. There are advantages and disadvantages to any material. The down side of laminated wood on instruments has to do with the relative quality of the sound, and that depends on how you want to use it. I have an all laminate name brand mandolin. After doing some set up work, it sounds really good and is my daily player - at home. When played along side solid wood mandolins and guitars it sounds like a cheap instrument. Nothing can be done about that. Because I play with folks who have top quality instruments, it doesn't go to any gigs. I had a Martin guitar with laminated back and sides and a solid top. Same problem. For solo work or for using a pickup it was super. It didn't sound very good in the presence of good quality solid instruments unless I was using a pickup (which is rare these days). The laminate seems to work better with pick ups. I bought both of those because laminate wood instruments may hold up better to the rigors of traveling. In bluegrass circles, the most highly prized basses are the fully laminated old Kay basses. They have "the" sound for that style of music. So, it all depends on what you want to use it for. Every instrument is different, but the general observations tend to hold true.
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    Bark first, Bite later Steve Zawacki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommando View Post
    Sounds like it might be just right for your intended use. There are advantages and disadvantages to any material. The down side of laminated wood on instruments has to do with the relative quality of the sound, and that depends on how you want to use it. I have an all laminate name brand mandolin. After doing some set up work, it sounds really good and is my daily player - at home. When played along side solid wood mandolins and guitars it sounds like a cheap instrument. Nothing can be done about that. Because I play with folks who have top quality instruments, it doesn't go to any gigs. I had a Martin guitar with laminated back and sides and a solid top. Same problem. For solo work or for using a pickup it was super. It didn't sound very good in the presence of good quality solid instruments unless I was using a pickup (which is rare these days). The laminate seems to work better with pick ups. I bought both of those because laminate wood instruments may hold up better to the rigors of traveling. In bluegrass circles, the most highly prized basses are the fully laminated old Kay basses. They have "the" sound for that style of music. So, it all depends on what you want to use it for. Every instrument is different, but the general observations tend to hold true.
    Probably have the same all-laminate beater which sometimes finds itself alone in a lawn chair when crazy things happen at home or in the car for no-choice extended periods. My two "carved solid wood" mandolins never leave the house and air conditioning (like my terrier!).

    Am anticipating more circumstances in the near future where "instrument durability" will have to take priority over sound-purity. Because of this will be watching with great interest the reviews of some of the new offerings this year like The Loar 170. Sometimes you just need an "adequate" instrument which can be your go-anywhere companion.
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    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Martin has had two different runs of a model called the 000-1 (and a D-1 and an OM-1). The 000-1 is basically a satin-finished iteration of a 000-18. The earliest run had a solid top and back, laminated sides (mahogany). I thought this was brilliant, because mahogany sides easily get banged and then they crack or have gaping holes in them. With the ply sides, that problem was solved quite handily. It was a very respectable Martin 000 for about $500 back then. A reintroduced and fairly close version of it, the OM-1GT, is now all-solid, w/stratabond neck (eww!), plastic bridge and fingerboard, more than twice the price, and much less interesting.

    In bluegrass circles, the most highly prized basses are the fully laminated old Kay basses. They have "the" sound for that style of music.
    Aside from the fact that the laminations come unglued often, I accept the preference some folks have for those Kay basses. I've had a chance to hear good bluegrass bass guys A-B nice solid basses with a Kay. To anyone out in front, the difference in sound is quite striking. The solid wood basses have a distinct note and a lot of sustain. The Kay basses just go thud. They don't make notes so much as contribute to the percussion. Forrest Rose preferred the percussive thud. Paul Knight insists on a bass made from real wood. To each his own. Kays are made of laminated basswood, one of the most tonally dead woods on the planet. Even the occasional veneer of spruce on the front can't help them out.
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  11. #31
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Kay basses were what many country musicians could afford. The all-blond Swingmaster at least looked cool.

    I'm now playing an aluminum-bodied bass (probably a Pfretzschner). Completely avoids the solid-wood vs. laminate controversy.
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    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    I disagree—Kay basses are wanted very specifically for their sound—to a certain demographic, anyway. It's not about money, otherwise people wouldn't spend such absurd amounts of money on old Kays.

    Pfretzschner marketed them, but I have never seen one. I wonder who really made them, and if they ever had a label in German.



    I sure have seen a lot by Grumman and ALCOA though.
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    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Laminate tops can be pretty good things with certain kinds of pickups, and some high-end jazz archtop builders offer them as an option for that reason. It must take some nerve to spend that kind of money for plywood, though.

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Paul: Is a laminated flat top more forgiving for sound than an arch? I am curious about the flat top guitar laminates that sound pretty decent compared to the arch top laminates that are not quite so forgiving. I had a rogue mandolin that did me no favors...Thanks in advance!

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    Question Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    I was fine with my Gibson A 40, in the 70's & 80's ... & am fine my Hodson D'jangolin now.
    both use a laminate for back & sides.

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    FYI Martin also made the 0000-1 with laminated sides 1997-2000. I have owned 2 of these,, currently have one of them. 370 built according to Martin "consumer" service.
    I have owned 15 Martins since 1961.. this is one of my favorites despite the modest construction and cost.

    I also have a 00-18v.

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    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    There are Kay basses, which all have spruce or maple outer veneers, which sound very good by any standard. Some of the earlier ones, which were built for the gut strings of the day, have thinner tops and are pretty resonant, believe it or not.

    Then there are the American Standard ply basses that are totally laminated and generally sound amazing. Many pizz players prefer them to carved basses. Dennis Irwin was one.

    I don't think we understand enough of the physics of sound production in acoustic wooden instruments to predict in more than a very general way how a given material will affect sound. We tend to believe that a more expensive and tediously worked material will always sound better than something cheaper or industrial. I think not always true.

    The soundboard in a bowed instrument needs a soundpost to pivot around because string input from the bow is parallel to the soundboard. I don't think the back moves much at all.

    All of the above is strictly opinion, and I'm old enough to have developed many, some might even be right. Or maybe not.

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    One of the best guitars I ever owned was a Guild D-25 with laminated back and sides, I think. A real banjo killer (if you like dead banjos).
    "The paths of experimentation twist and turn through mountains of miscalculations, and often lose themselves in error and darkness!"
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Mandroid/Jeff/LT2/Jaycat: thank you for the information! I guess it still comes down to the person building the instrument and their experience with the woods and designs they are using.


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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Kay basses were what many country musicians could afford. The all-blond Swingmaster at least looked cool.

    I'm now playing an aluminum-bodied bass (probably a Pfretzschner). Completely avoids the solid-wood vs. laminate controversy.
    I did not realize there were aluminum double basses. Whats does it sound like?

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    It appears to sound really cool

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40bwggtNiFY

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    The only thing wrong with laminated backs and sides is the image people have. A well done laminated wood instrument can be every bit as good as a solid wood instrument. There are a couple important things involved though. It’s hard to have a hand carved laminate mandolin. It would probably be a pressed arch on the laminate. As far as how it could work sonically, a lot of respected instruments use laminates in their build. They have had a bad reputation partly because they have been called “plywood” guitars or whatever instrument. The laminates used in instrument building is not what you got at Home Depot. It is a pretty specialized laminate specifically for instruments. In certain instruments they are preferred. The Gibson ES335 (my favorite electric) has an all laminated body. Solid woods would not respond as the laminates, and not as predictable. Now to acoustic instruments. Laminates are used in some very good guitars, but not the whole instrument. Part of this is the perception that laminates are only used in cheap imported guitars. That is true largely because it’s hard to sell an expensive guitar if it’s known to be a laminate. So, even if there are some laminates used in a higher priced instrument, it is usually accompanied by an explanation for why the laminate is best in that application. Or, as is most often done, it is never mentioned. We want traditional solid wood guitars and we are willing to pay for it. I love Martin and Gibson guitars and I want solid wood. If I were to pay that much for an instrument, I want it to be the best. The best is perceived to be solid tone woods. When it comes to mandolin, I want solid wood. You can tune a mandolin to get a tone you want or will accept with solids. Everything on a mandolin affects its tone. Change the braces, or the F holes, or the graduations, or the kind of wood and you can alter the tone. Really good builders can do this with a reasonable amount accuracy. So, it would be hard to sell a mandolin for $15,000 if it were a laminate. That’s why they (laminates) are found mostly in cheaper imported mandolins. Some are all laminate, while some only the back and sides are laminate. Some major companies have used laminates in their instruments, but it is usually not talked about or it is used where it does not matter. One good builder uses laminates in their backs to get the arch they want and it can be replicated every time with a good mold and right pressing equipment. That is not a secret, it just isn’t talked about. That makes it a non issue. Anyway, a quick answer to your question is that laminates are not always bad, but you are not
    Likely to find them in good mandolins. They can be ok for beginner mandolins. Whatever motivates you to learn and can grow with you for a while is fine. If you find a laminated one that excites you, go for it. A good laminate is better than a bad solid wood instrument.
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    While we're here, what opinions do you all have about the value of pressed laminate guitar/mandolin bowl shaped backs? I have an inexpensive recent Chinese build Guild 12 guitar with a laminate back and sides. The back is moulded in a very shallow bowl shape. My son has a Guild 12 of exactly the same size and shape with a 'flat' solid rosewood back and sides. My 12 has much more of that Leo Kottke style character 'jangle' than the much more expensive rosewood flat back version, which sounds warmer but much less jangly, more like a 'double strung 6 string'. I believe Kottke used a pressed laminate back Guild at one time to get his signature jangly sound. I've seen photos of mandos that appear to have a similar bowl shape pressed into the back. It must be very stiff - does that tend towards a particular sound character?

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    I’ve not personally seen a bowl back mandolin made out of laminate, but then I’ve only seen a few, as I live in bluegrass country. But, there are a ton of entry level mandolins that have pressed tops and backs (to create that shallow bowl shape I think you’re talking about) both laminate and solid woods. My first mando was a Kentucky 675-S that was all solid wood but I’m pretty sure had pressed top and back given the lack of true recurve. It was made right after they moved to China and came with some other issues as well (that I think were the fault of the eBay seller not Saga) so maybe it was just a poor carving job, but I’d bet on pressed if I had to put money on it.

    To Joe’s point above, the Manzer guitar Julian Lage plays has laminate back and sides, so laminate doesn’t always mean cheap or inferior. My brother has an inexpensive Sigma D-18 that’s all laminate but a really good sounding instrument that he’ll take literally anywhere without worry.

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Big Joe/CES: Thank you for your time and expertise. Does it make a difference when we are talking about an arch vs flat top? Do they make a laminate arch top mandolin worth having?

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Much of a response would entail a lot of personal opinion. Personally I have not seen a laminate back mandolin that I would want. However, a laminate back would be preferable to not having a mandolin. Guitars are another issue. I have heard and played some guitars with only solid tops that sound incredible. Many builders have used laminates in some of their guitars. The added strength of a laminate back and sides could be an asset in a 12 string guitar. Many electrics use laminate bodies, top included, to achieve the tone or help control feedback. There can be a world of difference in the quality of the laminates. A hundred dollar instrument is likely to use a very inexpensive laminate that is strong, but not sonically very impressive. When we talk about laminate bodies, Les Pauls have a mahogany back and a maple top in many of their models. This could be considered a laminate, but that would be a stretch for most people. This is not an unusual way to build to accomplish a certain tonal presentation. They also build some models with solid woods. They carry a different tonal report that would be preferable to some. The best advice I can give is to play the instrument you are interested in before you purchase a particular instrument to ensure it will satisfy your ear. I realize I have not given any definitive answer, but there is often a disconnect between our preconceived opinions and reality. Bob Taylor made a guitar from a shipping crate just to show a guitar can be made from just about anything. I have always had a predjudiced dislike for bolt neck instruments. Then I played a guitar that just blew me out of the water. Every one of this maker were incredible to play and hear. They had bolt necks and I was forced to rethink my opinion. If we apply an open minded approach to laminates in instrument building, we may well find there is a place for laminates if they are done well.
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    I agree with Big Joe, who I’ll say is far more experienced given his years in the instrument business than me. While high quality laminates are often used in higher quality arch top guitars that are intended to be played amplified, I’ve not seen similar offerings in the mandolin world. The laminate mandolins I’ve seen/played (in stores as I’ve followed the Cafe advice to go all solid with my mandolins) have been unimpressive entry level instruments. If Steve Gilchrist made a solid top/laminate back and sides mandolin, I bet he’d make it sound pretty darn good. But there’s no incentive for him to do so…
    Last edited by CES; Mar-07-2022 at 10:13am.

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGinNJ View Post
    I did not realize there were aluminum double basses. Whats does it sound like?
    Lots of aluminum instruments were made in the early 20th century; it was the new "in" material -- perhaps not dissimilar to Ovation's "Lyrachord" in the 1960's -- and there are aluminum bowl-backs (I own a Merrill), violins, and yes, bass fiddles.

    Alcoa made 'em, and I guess Grumman (though I've never seen one). I think mine's a Pfretzschner, though unlabeled. I base this on the fact that it's riveted together, rather than screwed, and that the neck is wood and not aluminum. I may well be wrong, but this article says that European aluminum basses were either screwed or riveted, while American instruments were welded. Also, European basses had wooden necks and braces, like mine; Americans didn't.

    It sounds like a "regular" bass fiddle, with perhaps some metallic overtones that a wooden bass would lack. I'm not a frequent bass player, mostly using it for country dances, and find it fine for my purposes.

    In college, I used to frequent Boston/Cambridge coffeehouses, and was a fan of the Charles River Valley Boys bluegrass band. Their bass player, Everett Allen Lilly, had an aluminum bass from which he'd stripped the brown paint, so it was shiny silver all over; I loved the look. However, I've kept the faux wood painted finish on mine.
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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    I seem to remember posts elsewhere on this board about Strad-O-lin mandolins that said some of the good sounding ones had laminated back and sides?

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    Default Re: Laminated back and sides bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    I seem to remember posts elsewhere on this board about Strad-O-lin mandolins that said some of the good sounding ones had laminated back and sides?
    Yes laminate SOL instruments can sound good. The 1941 I had was laminate back and probably sides. Sounded quite good. In fact, it is probaby as good as my current one which is solid woods.
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