Laminated back and sides bad?

[SpencerMando]

I'm looking into buying a mandolin with a solid top and laminated back and sides. Its an ortega. I've played it quite a bit at the store and it sounds quite nice. I've been playing guitar for over a decade so I managed to (somewhat ignorantly) draw the line between the crap and the good at the store, the ortega was one of the good ones.

Anyhow, I've read quite a few threads here and most people seem to think that laminate is a bad thing. Could someone elaborate as to why this is? It it okay to go for a laminate back/sides mandolin or should I avoid it. I intend to keep the thing for two years whilst I learn, I will then sell it and go for something in the 2000$ territory (I'm thinking an old Gibson A style).

[nickster60]

Laminated mandolins aren't really highly regarded. Mandolins resemble violins more than guitars. There are many carved mandolins offered by Kentucky,Eastman and Loar that are pretty reasonably priced that would be a better investment. Keep an eye on the mandolin classifieds there are usually some good deals there.

[Eddie Sheehy]

As long as the top is solid I think the laminate back and sides would be fine. The Yamaha guitars of the 70's were laminates and they were fine instruments. The Ovations have "plastic" back and sides and they have a good following. If it sounds good to you, go for it.
Laminated b&s are less prone to cracks and splits...

[OldSausage]

I can't see how laminated sides can really have much detrimental impact on the sound. If the laminated back were carefully carved and graduated by an expert it could probably sound as good as any mandolin. However, the implication is that it isn't, and that's why they don't usually sound that good.

[shortymack]

Exactly OS, laminated backs are pressed not carved hence the difference in tone/sound. As far as bad goes, to a seasoned player more so than someone just staring out. All relative and subjective as with anything else in the world of instruments.

[Steve Zawacki]

Which model Ortega is it?

[Folkmusician.com]

All things being equal, an all solid instrument should sound better than one that has laminated woods. Since all things are rarely equal, it is entirely possible (and there are cases) where a laminated instrument will have better tone than a comparably priced all solid instrument.

There are all levels of laminated wood available. The best may use good tone woods, not just on the outside, but also laminated in-between. So a mandolin with relatively good quality laminated back and sides and a well carved spruce top should sound better than a poorly carved all solid instrument. Take a Kentucky KM-140 (Solid top, laminated back and sides). You can put this up against many of the lower priced all solid mandolins out there and it will sound better. The problem is that it isn't much more for the KM-150 which does have better tone.

[SpencerMando]

Which model Ortega is it?

Its a RMFE90TS if that helps

[SpencerMando]

So a mandolin with relatively good quality laminated back and sides and a well carved spruce top should sound better than a poorly carved all solid instrument.)

First of all thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it. The mandolin (RMFE90TS) has a solid spruce top and laminated maple back and sides. I haven't really had much experience with maple as a guitarist (I have found my sweet spot to be mahogany and rosewood) so I'm kind of shooting in the dark, so to speak.

[mandroid]

My Hodson Djangolin is such, a laminate of Mahogany and Rosewood Veneers ..

because that was How Selmer did It.


Mr Hodson Passed on but someone hosted his website after his death.

http://website.lineone.net/~david_j_hodson/Index.htm

(at least the front page)

In the past I had Gibson A40 a Laminate of Mahogany Veneers . It was a fine instrument .

They Still are ..

[allenhopkins]

What Robert said. The other variable, SpencerMando, which you haven't discussed, is that the Ortega model with the solid top and laminated back and sides (isn't it the RMF90?) doesn't mention "carved solid top," so I assume the top's heat-pressed as well.

Reviewing your threads, you ordered a solid-wood, carved Loar mandolin, but were dissatisfied with it, due to some condition problems (buzzing), right? So you went to your local music store, and found an Ortega whose sound you really liked. But you have some reservations about buying an instrument that's not as well-constructed as the Loar -- has plywood back and sides rather than solid wood. (Loar vs. Ortega thread.)

The Ortega is $150 more than the Loar, and is heat-pressed, plywood-back-and-sides -- less expensive to build than an all-solid, hand-carved mandolin. Consensus is that the Loar's better made. This doesn't mean you shouldn't buy the Ortega; if you really like it, a heat-pressed, laminated-back-and-sides mandolin can be a good instrument. But by most standards, solid woods and carved rather than pressed, are better.

[Fretbear]

If you had a choice, should you always choose a solid back and sides instrument?
Yes, but only if it sounds better than one that has laminate sides! Of which there is no guarantee, as the top (which is almost always solid spruce) is responsible for the lion's share of the sound. I am currently romancing a new Recording King ROS-06 000 guitar with laminate back and sides and a beautiful forward-shifted, scalloped-braced top, and she is returning the love, warming and sweetening up every day. $300, sounds more like it was at least a $1000. Laminate back and sides do not necessarily equate with "bad."

[Steve Zawacki]

I can see why you find the Ortega RMFE90TS intriguing - built-in chromatic tuner, pre-amp and pickup, etc.. If you have a need for an "E" model and this one sounds/plays decent, then that changes the equation somewhat regarding The Loar you sent back.

[Paul Hostetter]

Most of the sound of any acoustic instrument come from the top. This is axiomatic.

For decades, Gibson (Kalamazoo era) cranked out guitars with laminated backs and/or sides and never told anyone! And guess what? No one noticed! They even made mandolins like this too. Do some homework.

Mandolins resemble violins more than guitars.

No, they don't. Violins have soundposts and the backs are meant to actively vibrate in consonance with the top. The backs on mandolins are no more (ahem) "vibratory" than the backs of guitars.

Anyhow, I've read quite a few threads here and most people seem to think that laminate is a bad thing. Could someone elaborate as to why this is?

It is rarely a good (or even OK) thing when the soundboard is laminated. They seldom sound good at all. And in fairness, not all solid tops sound that great either. Sometimes they are pressed (not carved) and sound bad; sometimes they are solid and carved and look great and yet they still sound terrible because the spruce was innately dead to begin with, or the person generating the top had no idea how to bring a voice out of that piece of spruce. Ya gotta judge by results. If an instrument sounds good to you, invites you to play and play and play, that's all you need to know.

[Mandorich]

[/QUOTE]"No, they don't. Violins have soundposts and the backs are meant to actively vibrate in consonance with the top. The backs on mandolins are no more (ahem) "vibratory" than the backs of guitars.".[/QUOTE]

Then why do tone guards work?

[nickster60]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Marty Jacobson]

I can't see how laminated sides can really have much detrimental impact on the sound. If the laminated back were carefully carved and graduated by an expert it could probably sound as good as any mandolin. However, the implication is that it isn't, and that's why they don't usually sound that good.

David's #21 I built has laminated sides. I see them as a benefit - light weight, stability, rigidity. They take more work to make, though.
A laminated back, as has been mentioned, is another story altogether. Not impossible, but usually used as a kludge to reduce costs.

[Marty Jacobson]

Then why do tone guards work?[/QUOTE]

Mandolin backs do influence tone, but they are not connected with a sound post as in violin construction. Guitar backs influence tone, too, but they move in response to the air and sides moving, not due to the movement of a sound post.

[Paul Hostetter]

Thanks, Marty.

[Steve Zawacki]

Does laminate or any kind of finish have any positive value other than cost? For example, in climates (like mine) which range into high temperature and high humidity, is there any more/less protection of the instrument from climate, etc.?

[Shelagh Moore]

I don't think there's anything intrinsically bad about laminated sides and backs and there are plenty of perfectly good instruments that have them. As many have said already, the quality of the top and general build is much more important.

[mandroid]

Steve Z in reality the finish , no matter what it is, is only on the outside
so the inside is free to take on moisture , like any wooden Item.

since I have Bought it the Peter Mix Made Carbon-Fiber Mandolin

is the way to deal with temperature and humidity swings as he said
but they are a limited production piece ..

and are, Used, reselling even, at about a $3K price . New they are not much more ..

want F style? double the price..

[Tobin]

Does laminate or any kind of finish have any positive value other than cost? For example, in climates (like mine) which range into high temperature and high humidity, is there any more/less protection of the instrument from climate, etc.?

By the wording of your question, it looks like you may be confused about what laminate is. It's not a finish, and has nothing to do with finish. It's an 'engineered wood product'... basically, plywood. Rather than being a solid piece of natural wood, it is several layers of veneers which are glued together. Not sure about the laminates used for instruments, but most engineered wood products like this use a resin to bond the layers together. This actually produces a very strong and durable product, which is ideal for strength purposes (but is not so hot for tone production). The laminating process helps to seal the wood and provide a composite member that's more resistant to moisture and temperature fluctuations than all-natural solid wood. It's not completely sealed, but the layers of resin do help act as a barrier to the inner plies, and act as a sort of structural layer that restrains the wood from expanding and contracting as much as it wants to do. So I'd say yes, laminates are better suited to temperature and moisture variation than solid woods. But they can still, obviously, develop problems too.

[Steve Zawacki]

By the wording of your question, it looks like you may be confused about what laminate is. It's not a finish, and has nothing to do with finish. It's an 'engineered wood product'... basically, plywood. Rather than being a solid piece of natural wood, it is several layers of veneers which are glued together. Not sure about the laminates used for instruments, but most engineered wood products like this use a resin to bond the layers together. This actually produces a very strong and durable product, which is ideal for strength purposes (but is not so hot for tone production). The laminating process helps to seal the wood and provide a composite member that's more resistant to moisture and temperature fluctuations than all-natural solid wood. It's not completely sealed, but the layers of resin do help act as a barrier to the inner plies, and act as a sort of structural layer that restrains the wood from expanding and contracting as much as it wants to do. So I'd say yes, laminates are better suited to temperature and moisture variation than solid woods. But they can still, obviously, develop problems too.

Thanks! Am familiar with laminates, how constructed. etc.. It's a given that laminates (today's technology) don't provide the sound quality of carved solid wood, lightly finished. My concern is if the instrument is going to spend considerable time in hot/humid settings (e.g., Central/South Florida, the Caribbean, whether outside, in cars and boats) whether laminates probably would be more durable and tolerant than the carved, solid wood instrument, and thus a better choice when that environment can't be avoided. . Simple (?) logic tells me yes, but there are times when it seems like simple logic is way off the mark.

[mandroid]

I recall some company extolling the virtues of a lacquer on the insides of their Guitars..

Martin's HPL has not been added to the mandolin line, I don't even know if there is any mandolins being made now..