Significant mandolin luthiers

[CeeCee_C]

Most of us know something about Lloyd Loar's contribution to mandolin history. And I know that Roger Siminoff contributed to the re-issue of the Gibson Loar model.

Who were the other significant contributors to what the mandolin is now? Not just good builders, but builders who shaped the sound, set the standards...

Just off the top of my head, would Virzi be one? There's lots of discussion about how effective his device is and whether it's desirable, but he *was* trying something new.

I really don't know the answer and looking it up in Wikipedia isn't nearly as much fun (and probably not nearly as informative) as asking all of you what you think.

[Bernie Daniel]

Most of us know something about Lloyd Loar's contribution to mandolin history. And I know that Roger Siminoff contributed to the re-issue of the Gibson Loar model.

Who were the other significant contributors to what the mandolin is now? Not just good builders, but builders who shaped the sound, set the standards...

Just off the top of my head, would Virzi be one? There's lots of discussion about how effective his device is and whether it's desirable, but he *was* trying something new.

I really don't know the answer and looking it up in Wikipedia isn't nearly as much fun (and probably not nearly as informative) as asking all of you what you think.

Hey if you want to concentrate on American contributions to the mandolin I think you have to start with Orville Gibson!
That's my two Susan B Anthony dollars on the subject!

[CeeCee_C]

True dat. And I have done some reading about Orville Gibson's contributions. Thanks. How silly of me not to include the progenitor of the American mandolin.

But isn't it true that by the time Gibson had passed out of Orville's direct involvement, the construction of the instrument had changed substantially? The sides carved out of a single piece of wood were long gone, Or am I mistaken? And can you imagine the amount of tonewood wasted if that approach had been continued?

[Marty Jacobson]

John Monteleone, Steve Gilchrist, Mike Kemnitzer (Nugget), Lawrence Smart, and Charlie Derrington all made widely-regarded significant contributions to what we currently know as "the mandolin", collectively. Dr. Dave Cohen is not in that league in terms of widespread recognition, but stands alone as the foremost exponent of ideas related to the actual (not merely presumed) physics behind mandolin construction.

And can you imagine the amount of tonewood wasted if that approach had been continued?

"Wasted" is a relative term. I don't know the ratios, but insisting on quarter-sawn wood results in some "wasted" wood, but most folks seem to think it's worth it. I think a lot of good tonewood is "wasted" on factory instruments which are not thoughtfully designed or voiced.

[CeeCee_C]

Is there a particular book out there that would describe the contribution(s) of the luthiers you identified?

[Marty Jacobson]

Not really, it's scattered across the Internet and this site. If you read David Cohen's chapter in The Science of Stringed Instruments, there's a historical section in there. Graham MacDonald is compiling one of the first real treatises on the history of the mandolin, currently.
Lawrence Smart's article on his approach to building is now 20 years old, but worth a read... (especially if you're considering an instrument in the price range in which he builds... hint hint..).
http://smart-instruments.com/amluth95.html

[Pete Jenner]

Graham McDonald is working on a book on the history of the mandolin from a builders perspective (I think). It should be a great read.

[HoGo]

I believe none of the 2 guys OP mentions qualify as luthiers. They were both "involved" in the business but I would not call them luthiers.
Personally I think the real original F style design (be it oval or f hole models) started with Orvilles creations and was refined by nameless guys at Gibson factory. Then there are rows of guys who try to re-create the deisgn. Kemnitzer and Gilchrist are the first names that come to my mind, they brought the original design to perfection. Gilchrist popularized the x bracing and Monteleone as design innovator with his GA models.
Then there are few guys who did research in acoustics, but that would be hard to quantify who did really significant research and who not so much...

[sebastiaan56]

Lemme see, Brian Dean, Luigi Embergher, Calace, come to mind. The inventors of some shapes, eg flat backs, are lost to history. Or was this thread about Gibson copies?

[Dagger Gordon]

Lemme see, Brian Dean, Luigi Embergher, Calace, come to mind. The inventors of some shapes, eg flat backs, are lost to history. Or was this thread about Gibson copies?

Arik Kerman seems to be going his own way (listen to Avi Avital). You could probably say the same about Stefan Sobell whose influence is immense in the Celtic world.

[HoGo]

Agree. There are very significant luthiers crafting beautiful mandolins of other types as well. I got caught by the original post that was oriented towards Gibson style mandolins.

[Graham McDonald]

I do think you have to look at European and American instruments as two different streams of mandolin evolution at least from the late 19th century. It all goes back originally to the Vinnacia family in Naples in the 1750s who built the first mandolins that any of us today could pick up and play a tune on, and whose family business lasted into the 1930. In late 19th century italy there was also the Calace family of Naples (who are still going) and Luigi Embergher in Rome who further defined the Italian styles of mandolin building,

In post-war Germany Reinhold Seifert developed a new bowlback mandolin which has become a mainstay of the German mandolin orchestra scene and now copied by most of the contemporary German builders,

Before Orville Gibson there were many, now almost entirely forgotten engineers and craftsmen such as George Durkee, the factory superintendent at Lyon and Healy, who worked out how to make stringed instruments in large numbers in American factories. One such was David L Day who worked for AC Fairbanks, Vega and Fred Bacon designing mandolins and banjos for his entire working life, from 1883 through till the late 30s.

As well there were people like Albert Schutt, who was years ahead of his time, building carved f-hole soundboard mandolins with cantilevered fingerboards 15 years before Gibson.

And this isn't trying to lessen the influence of Orville Gibson who rethought the way a mandolin could be put together. He didn't perfect his idea of carving soundboard and backs, but the combination of Lloyd Loar, Ted McHugh, Lewis Williams and a group of clever craftsmen at Gibson in the early 20s came close for a few years with the original F-5.

In more recent times Roger Siminoff has been a tireless advocate in convincing people that those Gibson employees in the 20s had it worked out properly and that if their methodology is studied very good mandolins will result.

John Monteleone has shown that the F-5 can be used as the basis for new designs and inspired a couple of generations of younger builders and Dave Cohen has advanced the scientific understanding of mandolins well beyond what many of us will fully grasp, but enough so we can confidently rebut all those discussions which start with "I read somewhere that.." or "I'm not a luthier, but...".

That is probably not all, bit it is a start.

cheers

[JeffD]

Looking outside the narrow world of the Gibsonesque F style arch top to other brilliant mandovelopments, any list of significant luthiers should include Brian Dean, Joe Foley, Stephen Sobell, and Arik Kerman.

Oh I see, these have been mentioned. Well they bear repeating. They are great.

[Bernie Daniel]

Awesome post Mr. McDonald!

[David Newton]

I think any list of "significant" mandolin builders needs to include Randy Woods, who I believe was making F5-style copies that rivaled the Loars, and fairly early on.

[Jim Garber]

Looking outside the narrow world of the Gibsonesque F style arch top to other brilliant mandovelopments, any list of significant luthiers should include Brian Dean, Joe Foley, Stephen Sobell, and Arik Kerman.

I know the other names, but who is Joe Foley. There is one maker by that name in Ireland but I don't know that he is in the forefront of innovation. Do you mean Joe Cleary of Campanella Strings?

[Tom Haywood]

One place to look for names is the "This day in history" area of this site. The folks who've gotten patents on their designs for mandolins, parts and accessories, many who I've never heard of, were working hard to "shape the sound, set the standards...", and have had a major effect directly or indirectly. It isn't necessarily "luthiers" who have done this.

[Zissou Intern]

Perhaps Bill Collings would deserves mention. He has arguably taken "production building" of carved instruments to the next level. I know that when he decided to begin making mandolins, Collings had input from other skilled luthiers, like Mike Kemnitzer. With whom he later collaborated on the Tim O'Brien Signature Model.

[Pete Jenner]

I know the other names, but who is Joe Foley. There is one maker by that name in Ireland but I don't know that he is in the forefront of innovation. Do you mean Joe Cleary of Campanella Strings?

Jim, Joe Foley is a famous Irish luthier and musician. While perhaps not an obvious innovator, his instruments are highly sought after.

I was lucky enough to meet Joe recently in Dublin. He runs a session in O'Donaghue's pub on a Sunday evening. Great bloke.

That's Joe over my right shoulder.

[Jim Hilburn]

The guys who in the early 60's realized that Gibson wasn't going to offer mandolins with the qualities of a Loar and filled that demand themselves. I wish I knew more of the history than I do but some of the names are the aforementioned Randy Wood, Tom Morgan, Bob White, John Hutto, Bob Givens and I know there are more who belong in this list. I know Bob White influenced Nugget.
I think the early bluegrass festivals in the southeast was the breeding ground where guys got together and figured it all out.

[JeffD]

I know the other names, but who is Joe Foley. There is one maker by that name in Ireland but I don't know that he is in the forefront of innovation. Do you mean Joe Cleary of Campanella Strings?

I take your point, we are not just listing good luthiers, but those who have contributed to the development of the instrument.

Well no I meant the mandolin/bouzouki maker in Ireland. Years ago (many years ago) when I met him everyone was all buzzing about how he raised the bar for the Irish Bouzouki. It was all Stephen Sobell and Joe Foley. Now the Irish bouzouki is kind of ubiquitous.

But I should have mentioned Joe Cleary, of course.

[fatt-dad]

Steve Carlson. In the late 70s, he started making those wonderful flat-top mandolins to offer a wonderful instrument for folks on a budget. After a few years of that, he used his factory to challenge Gibson's arch-top lineup. Steve won! Gibson had no choice but to buy Flatiron.

f-d

[JeffD]

There is so much to these eight string wonders, and the story of the development of the F5, from its origins to its modern incarnations, fascinating as it is, is only one slice of the pie.

[thistle3585]

I guess I'm thinking of people that were innovators and not necessarily builders that build a quality, refined mandolin. People that come to mind include Monteleone and Brian Dean for design. I think Dave Cohen and Red Henry deserve recognition for exploring different styles of bridges and their effect on tone. Ellis and Collings with innovation along the lines of production. Jon Mann for the 14.5" scale electric. Steve Ryder for making an electric mandolin versus a "mini-guitar." Mike Dulak and Stefan Sobell for flat top mandolins. Graham McDonald for experimental bracing techniques. Definitely can't forget Peter Mix for his carbon fiber innovation as well as Pet Langdell for his Rigel design elements.

[Jim Hilburn]

After a little digging I came across a post by Red Henry and he mentioned 3 more who belong on my list, Bob Shue, Marion Kirk and Chris Warner. Chris is the guy who made Marty Stuart's well worn monster.
Fatt-dad, you mention Steve Carlson and Flatiron, but in fact Flatiron was begun in Boulder (hence the flatiron reference) by local luthier Chuck Morrison. He went into business with Steve but soon bowed out and Steve ran with the pancake.