1904 Vinaccia Luito Moderna/Samuel Adelstein

[gweetarpicker]

Spruce Tree Music has a 10 string bowlback mandocello (luito moderna) pictured on their website. The ad mentions that the instrument was built for Samuel Adelstein and that there were three or more similar examples built the same year for Adelstein. Anyone know why Adelstein would have had a handful of these instruments built in 1904?

www.sprucetreemusic.com/usedvint_mando.html

[mrmando]

Local collector has another of those, although it needs a little work. Adelstein was a teacher and director of a mandolin orchestra.

[Jim Garber]

Adelstein was a virtuoso player and performer. He also gave the first mandolin concert in Japan by a non-Japanese player and toured around the world playing. He also visited Europe to visit and meet with some of the mandolin luminaries.

There was some discussion about these liutos on this thread. from 2008.

[Martin Jonas]

Very nice! Isn't 22.5" a bit short for the low mandocello C? I'm currently contemplating getting a mandocello but unfortunately, 5K is well outside my budget. There was a Fylde cittern on Ebay UK a few weeks ago and I sort-of regret not going for that. Right now I'm looking at a 1970s Suzuki flatback cello which is much more reasonably priced (I don't think there is such a thing as a cheap mandocello...).

Martin

[gweetarpicker]

So if Adelstein was a teacher and orchestra director, perhaps he was ordering instruments for his students or for his orchestra? I wonder if there was an orchestra with a whole section of Vinaccia luitos.

[gweetarpicker]

22 1/2" scale is on the short side for a mandocello. As far as vintage goes, Howe Orme mandocellos are only about 19 3/4" but they are the exception and you rarely see them anyway...most stuff is longer...Gibsons are around 24 3/4", Lyon Healy and Vega around 25 3/4", Bohmann around 24 1/2". I haven't seen a lot of old bowl back mandocellos so I don't how they typically run. It would depend on string choice of course. I'm sure you could find a gauge and string type that would work well for a 22 1/2" scale. Might be easier to finger too.

[Henry Girvan]

Samuel Adelstein in his book "Mandolin Memories" says that he was the first person in America to have a Luito Moderna, and that on a second visit to Italy he had a second made especially to order by Raffaele Calace who inscribed it "Raffaele Calace, Ricordo liuto fabbricante speciale per il carissimo amico Samuel Adelstein, 1895, Napoli". Which he translates as "Souvenir lute made especially for my dearest friend, Samuel Adelstein".

He goes on to say that Signor R. Calace is the greatest luteist in Europe.

[Jim Garber]

For all on this thread: the correct spelling is liuto not luito. BTW the wikipedia article on liuto cantabile (also called liuto moderno) says that the modern Calace liuto's scale os 61mm/24inches.

[gweetarpicker]

My bad on the misspelling. There's a Herwiga brand liuto cantabile on an old thread that has a 23 1/2" scale.

[brunello97]

This from Mr. Adelstein from 1905 Musical Trade Review (italics mine):

"It may interest those in this country who value their instruments because of their profuse ornamentation, to know that the Italian mandolin soloists perform on instruments perfectly plain in finish. Their best toned instruments are of fir top and maple body, the neck generally made of veneered rosewood, and in the best instruments of ebony. The Italians do not polish the tops of their mandolins, believing that it affects the tone.

From experience and experiments the writer knows that polishing the top. of the mandolin is the most fatal defect in all American instruments. Superfluous additions, however they may be pleasing to the eye, most seriously affect the tonal quality of the mandolin. If the manufacturers who take so much pains in ornamentation, etc., would be more judicious in the careful selection and take more time in the slow seasoning of the wood, and pay more attention to the joining and finishing, there would be less complaint of absence of tone and the resulting benefit would be of inestimable value for the reputation and standing of the tonal quality of the mandolin in the musical world in America."

A pretty early critique, actually. (I take no position viz his opinions....) Unfortunately, our library doesn't have a copy of "Mandolin Memories". Maybe I can hunt it down on ILL. I think I'd enjoy reading more from Adelstein.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I have the copy that Ugo Orlandi published out a few years ago.

[gweetarpicker]

I found this copy of a 12/18/1903 San Francisco newspaper article that describes a mandolin concert directed by Samuel Adelstein. The program references "Italian lutes" in addition to mandolins including one piece that is for a trio for Italian lutes... "Sul Lido," serenata. (Guiseppe Bellenghl),trio for three Italian lutes — Mrs. H. H. Sherwood. Miss Elvira W. Hobbs. Samuel Adelsteln. I'm wondering if the Italian lutes are liuto modernas?

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...18/ed-1/seq-9/

[gweetarpicker]

Here's another from 12/18/1908 that says "Adelstein's solos on the lute - which is the cello of the mandolin orchestra - were roundly applauded..."

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...18/ed-1/seq-5/

[Graham McDonald]

The current Calace 'cello / liuto scale is 24", and the photos I have seen of Rafaele playing one look that scale as well. But there is no reason why they could not have done a small batch for Adelstein to sell in the US. Lute was commonly used back a century ago for bowlback 'cellos. It pops up quite regularly in the Cadenza.

Useful info on cello scale lengths, thank you, though I thought the Vegas were usually closer to 26". Depends of course on how you measure them. I think on older instruments (Pre-20s?) that used the Rule of 18 the real scale is the nut to bridge distance which plays in tune rather than double the nut to 12th fret distance which will be a little shorter. These days with using 17.817 as the devisor to calculate scale there 'scale length' is double the nut to 12th distance and we ignore the compensation. The old way of calculating included the compensation.

cheers

cheers

[gweetarpicker]

I double checked the Vega cylinder back mandocello scale and it looks to be a bit closer to 25 7/8" (rather than 25 3/4") measured double the nut to 12th fret distance. The nut to bridge scale length (that plays in tune on the C string) is right at 26".

Perhaps the shorter scale of the 10 string Vinaccia is a compromise given the high e string, in between a mandocello and an octave mandola scale.

[brunello97]

I have the copy that Ugo Orlandi published out a few years ago.

I saw that one on his website, Jim, but I couldn't locate where they might be available from. I found the old thread here from 1904 or maybe it was 2004, one. Looks like there are some copies floating around in various places and that it was serialized in Cadenza. It will take a bit of hunting down but hopefully I can turn it up.

This chapter looks like it could be interesting: Considerazioni sulla liuteria e sui problemi tecnici della pratica mandolinistica

Mick

[Ruppa]

I wasn't in on the thread earlier, but I still can add a little info for anyone that is interested. The Vinaccia "Liuto Moderno" that Spruce Tree Music sold years ago was mine. If you go back to a thread referenced by Jim to see photos of the Liuto, a few inches above the tailpiece you'll see a little strip of tan artificial chamois that I stuck under the strings to eliminate ringing.

I bought the instrument from Marc Silber of SF. The deal included my trade of a round soundhole (supposedly Stahl - no label) mando-cello. If I remember correctly it was in the late 80s or and I paid 2K. My understanding is that Vinaccia called their 5-course liuto -"moderno" and Calace's were called "cantabile." Regardless of the name, these liutos was created to pick up the cello voicing in a mando quartet. - re: Paul Sparks - Florentine Quartet (1890)

I got the instrument because I was on a quest to find out where mando-cellos came from. Adelstein - the music historian was a hero of mine. His "Mandolin Memories" essay was published in the Cadenza Magazine (Ugo Orlandi published a reprint).

I don't remember where I read it - I have a copy of the article somewhere - Adelstein led and performed in a liuto quartet. One of the selling points of the instrument was the label - I don't have a picture of that label, but I did refer to it in my Master's thesis - it read"

"Liuto fabbricato specialmente per distinto professore ed esimio artista Sig. Samuele Adelstein, San Francisco, Cal., U.S.A. = Napoli 1904 ="

"Lute manufactured especially for the distinguished professor and eminent artist Mr. Samuel Adelstein, San Franciscoo, Cal., USA = Naples 1904 ="

The top had no finish on it and the were unattractive dirty areas. Otherwise it was a very handsome instrument. The original custom case was nicely crafted. The fingerboard was too wide for me and I never got comfortable with the 5 courses. The tone that [U]I[U] could produce with it was not special. I preferred and stuck with my Vega, cb mando-cello.

I sold the Vinaccia on consignment through Spruce Tree Music and don't know who bought it. - Paul