Question about mandolin instructors

[MaggieMae]

I have been paying a dear fortune for a month for lessons from a guy who came highly recommended by several local sources. He is clearly a talented and experienced musician, but he is a violin/fiddle player primarily. He plays the mandolin, or knows how, but doesn't even own one.

I am new to playing music, so I am not sure if I am misinterpreting his approach, but I am starting to wonder if i have the right person.

So, first he has no mandolin curriculum or plan, and I hate feeling like there is no systematicity to what I am learning. He has taught me a few scales, tries to help me with technique, tries to get me to improv w/ him while he plays rhythm on his guitar ior fiddle (which makes me very uncomfortable, LoL), watches me play songs I learned mostly from my Mandolin for Dummies books, and has worked on a couple of other songs with me. This past week he began trying to teach my dumb right hand some strumming patterns. (wow, that is the most difficutl thing for me so far.)

But, he continually reiterates the mainly support role of the mandolin in bluegrass (which is not my goal for playing, actually), and I can't figure out if he is saying that because I am a beginner who should be striving for beginner type goals, or if he is not familiar with other things the mandolin can do.

I know it is hard to say without sitting in on the lessons.. I guess I am just curious if you guys think someone like this can offer me much more, or if it is best to for me to keep trying to learn by myself or maybe try some of the online lessons. It seems as if it would be ideal to learn from someone for whom the mandolin is a passion, perhaps their primary instrument, in which they were expert, and maybe that is why this guy and I are not connecting.

[mandolinlee]

MaggieMae -

Another member asked a similar question. Here is what I told him:

If they charge $20 - $25 for 30 minutes, make sure the teacher PLAYS mandolin! Ask if you can contact former students as references. You will want someone that KNOWS the mandolin at that price, otherwise you might get some high school kid that is reading the instruction book one day before your lesson.
Buyer beware.
Lee

Sounds like you teacher doesn't even read the book so he/she is ahead of you.

Best of luck in your decision.
Lee

[belbein]

I also recently started lessons, after playing for several years. My teacher is a wonderful teacher. She plays many instruments, of which mandolin is only one, and probably her third. I am obviously not going to get out of her what I would get out of Chris Thile. But--she's a great teacher. And some of what she'd teaching me is music, in the broad sense. I don't mean theory, I don't mean memorizing songs, I mean playing music. So the best thing about her (besides the fact that she is a wonderful, charming person) is that she's a great teacher and I am learning. There may be better mandolin players, but she is a great TEACHER. And that's what I need.

Or, no, the best thing about her is that she's keeping me on track, finishing one thing before I [shiny thing!] go off on another track.

Now, having said that: if a teacher doesn't have a course of study ready, I'd run like hell. On the other hand, if they had a one-size-fits-all course of study, I'd also run like hell.

And having said THAT: what are your options? If there are a plethora (or even just a bunch) of mandolin teachers in your area, then I'd switch in a hearbeat. If your teacher is the only one ... well, then I think maybe you just need to be more assertive and say, "I want to work on THIS." And if they won't, there are always the on-line folks.

[Doug Heinold]

I'm in the same conundrum, and while I have learned some things, I feel like it is what I have pulled out of the process and not really any design or plan that teacher has brought to the table. Great guy, very nice to talk to, but primarily a guitar player. I think you have to go with your instincts and if you are not getting your money's worth, politely move on. I am taking my last two lessons and then focusing on some on-line resources while I keep my ear to the ground for a really good mandolin teacher in the area. Good luck.

[William Smith]

If your not getting anything out of it you might as well be using your book on your own time and it sounds like your already doing that! I'd cancel the lessons maybe buy a few books with cd's that give great instruction or Dvd's. They are out there and there is nothing wrong with learning from them sources! Also you could join an online school for mandolin like through the artistworks Mike Marshall workshops, go to youtube and learn from people there for free "there is some great instruction on youtube and some people even have sites you can join for a small fee/or free!
Just my thinking so best O'luck, your spending good $$ at least you should feel like your learning/getting something out of it!

[UsuallyPickin]

The teacher has to know how to play the instrument. How to teach you how to play the instrument. And how music works and is played. And how to teach a student about the ins and outs of music. Otherwise the student learns to play a bunch of songs in the was a toddler memorizes a book that has been read to them repeatedly. The toddler doesn't know how to read or even what all the words mean but certainly knows when you skip a page. It takes time and effort to find the right teacher. Be patient and don't be afraid to move on. At a dollar a minute you can find the right teacher for you. There are a multitude of teachers available through SKYPE as well as DVD lessons while you continue your search.... Luck... R/

[Randi Gormley]

I'd also recommend a sitdown with the teacher to talk about what kind of music you want to play. The fact that you keep being told about the back-up place of mandolin in bluegrass when that's not what you want -- shows an unexpected limitation from someone who is taking your money to learn to play mandolin (as opposed to learning a type of music). I don't mean you need to come armed with Thile playing the Bach partitas or Duda Maia playing choro, but it might not be a bad thing to load onto your phone. A teacher should help you, not limit you.

[mandogerry]

There's another recent discussion in this part of the Forum, "Are Lessons Really Worth It?", that addressed similar issues. FYI, here's what I had to say there:

"Several years ago, I took beginning mandolin lessons from a wonderful musician whose main instruments were guitar and (gasp) banjo. She was great at keeping me going through that time and gave me a super collection of tunes that I still play. But, as she admitted, mandolin technique was not her strong point.

After several years of playing, I learned (to my embarrassment) in a group mandolin workshop that I had to unlearn some bad habits, even down to proper pick holding. Best and easiest to learn it right the first time, either by in-person lessons with a mandolin-smart teacher, a solid online instructor like Mike Marshall, or a group workshop with an excellent teacher (a thousand thanks to Marla Fibish, for kindly pointing out and helping to adjust my flawed technique during a weeklong workshop). "

I would add two things to that message: If an instructor tells you that mandolins are only useful for bluegrass backup, and that's not what you're interested in (like many people here, including me), don 't believe it. There is a whole other world of mandolin out there. And if the instructor doesn't even have a mandolin and doesn't use one to help explain things or accompany you, I'd run the other way.

[bohemianbiker]

Some good advice here. I would just add that the best teacher isn't always the best person at actually doing something. And that holds true for a lot of things (ie, the best mathematician in the world might not be the best math teacher, because of temperment, communications skills, or whatever).

My own thought is that it is good to take lessons rather than do it yourself (altho that is certainly a viable option for some), as I've found this helps keep one practicing (I think it's easier to blow off practicing if you're on a "do it yourself" program). Plus, the instructor can help identify and prevent bad habits. I know people who take lessons on-line, and they speak highly of it, but I often wonder if the instructor will be able to see as readily if you're faltering on technique.

Contacting music stores in your area asking if they offer mandolin instruction, and if not, who does, is one way to perhaps identify instructors. I might suggest calling instead of emailing, as you might get more of a straight scoop on the instructor over the phone. I did this, as well as by googling "mandolin instructor" in my area when I was looking for an instructor. If not music stores, then high school/college teachers may be able to help identify instructors.

The Classical Mandolin Society of America lists instructors on its web site, although none in Florida. However, they do list two orchestras that play in FL (Sarasota and Lake Worth; see link below). You might contact them and see if they know of any instructors in your area. I would think they'd know more than just classical instructors (altho maybe not).

As far as you're current instructor, perhaps you could discuss with him your desire to have some sort of plan. Perhaps a non-confrontational way to start the conversation would be to ask if you could discuss what topics (eg, scales, arpegios) he sees you working on over the next 3, 6 or 12 months (you could pick any period of time). I take it you are not using a traditional method book with the instructor, is that right (beyond Mando for Dummies)? If so, perhaps having your lessons based on a method book would be helpful (I use Marilynn Mair's, which I like). That may be another way to initiate the conversation with your instructor (ie, ask him if he can recommend a method book, and if it'd be worthwhile basing some of the lessons on that).

If you decide to get a new instructor, I'd try to invest a bit of time finding the right one, because you don't want to have to keep switching. (That said, if it really isn't working out, then switching does make sense.) Best of luck with it.

http://www.classicalmandolinsociety.org/groupindex.asp

[belbein]

I'm in the same conundrum, and while I have learned some things, I feel like it is what I have pulled out of the process and not really any design or plan that teacher has brought to the table. Great guy, very nice to talk to, but primarily a guitar player. I think you have to go with your instincts and if you are not getting your money's worth, politely move on. I am taking my last two lessons and then focusing on some on-line resources while I keep my ear to the ground for a really good mandolin teacher in the area. Good luck.

I guess this is my night to kibbitz. I have another suggestion other than moving on. I mean, on-line resources are great, as are good teachers. But another thing you might do if you have a good musician teaching you who's not a great mandolin player: let them teach you how to play music. You may think it doesn't make sense to pay to sit and play with someone for a half or full hour. But if your goal is to play with people, then why not learn how to do that with someone who is a master of their instrument and has a little bit of knowledge of yours? You could say, "Hey, I want to know how to back up a guitarist on a blues song," and let him work through it with you. Or, "How do I pick out the melody from guitar chords?" Or even: "How do I read the guitarist's fingers to figure out what chords he's playing?"

In sum, I think that we all think that "playing mandolin" is some special deep dark secret skill. Which it is. But it's a SDDSS contained inside a universe of playing music. Ultimately, we are (if we're not Sierra Hull or Chris Thile) part of the band not the whole enchilada. So there are a whole bunch of skills that go along with playing in ensemble, and sometimes our non-mandolin teachers can teach us that.

At least, that's what I've learned from some very good musicians who don't play mandolin.

[Loretta Callahan]

He plays the mandolin, or knows how, but doesn't even own one.
……………………………..
But, he continually reiterates the mainly support role of the mandolin in bluegrass

Um … I'd say you have the wrong teacher. Really? Support role of mandolin in bluegrass? That's only a fraction of the mandolin "genre". My red flags shot up like Old Faithful when I read that.

Seriously great advice from cafe folks (as usual). All I can offer is that I found out (the hard way) not to take mandolin from someone whose main instrument isn't the mandolin. You can really mess yourself up. Techniques for holding, picking and ornaments on the mandolin are completely different from violin, fiddles, etc. It took me a year to unlearn crappy technique from a fiddle playing teacher. The worst thing I've seen are injuries from holding the mandolin and neck improperly. It's hard enough to develop fingertip calluses … let alone risking carpal, etc.

My Skype lessons from Zak Borden in Portland saved my technique. (no financial connection for me here) He is a master at bluegrass, Irish trad, choro and probably styles I've never heard of. I started playing bluegrass, but had absolutely no talent for it; sold the F5 and play Irish Trad almost exclusively. The great thing about Zak is that he listens to you and will craft lessons to fit your style and desire. If you're not sure, he'll give you solid basics and some brilliant techniques that will help you develop your playing and love of the instrument.

Can't afford lessons right now, but I hear the words of Zak, Marla Fibish and other teachers every time I practice. My mandolin lessons are still worth every penny I paid.

[Beanzy]

MaggieMae from what you say you have a music teacher not a mandolin teacher.
You're noticing the cost/return isn't there. So it would be appropriate to look elsewhere.
I would ferret out a different teacher, but in the meantime get some Skype lessons, or use the wonderful resources out there such as Brad Laird, Bluegrass Academy etc. (Check out all the threads about online learning)
Once you do find a good enough local teacher then switch your dollars back to the real world learning.

To cover the motivational aspects, work out places you can go play with others.

Be sure to keep us all in the loop with what you do.

[yankees1]

Check out Pete Martin at petimerpress.com. He offeres lessons by Skype and he plays the mandolin pretty goodl !

[SincereCorgi]

Ditch 'em. Even if the person were an amazing mandolin player, if your personalities don't mesh and the guy has no teaching plan, you're wasting your time and money. Don't be afraid to change teachers.

[bigskygirl]

I have been taking Skype lessons for a few months and it works out great. When I got my mandolin I wanted to learn from a mandolin player so I sought out one of the best.

He is a great teacher and person and while we don't really have a "structured" plan I know he is guiding me in a direction that is making me a better player.

We Skype a few times a month, and I can email him when I have a question. I'm very satisfied with the lessons and my progress.

[Steve Zawacki]

In the education/training world there are subject matter experts and there are instructors. Sometimes these are the same folk, and most of the time not. Just because someone is a subject matter expert doesn't mean they are competent to instruct someone else.

Your instructor does not have to be the best mandolinist in town, but rather the best instructor of the skills/knowledge you need. To use a sports analogy, almost all major league hitting coaches never won a batting title and almost all major league pitching coaches never won 20 games in a season. So, the key is finding an instructor with a "winning record" in helping aspiring mandolinists learn new skills and become overall more proficient, not the instructor who plays in the best known bands.

[RobinAronson]

It sounds like you've already answered your question. You know deep down that this isn't the right teacher for you. I'd look elsewhere. I'm also the type that wants a structured curriculum, not go in and have the teacher pull something out of his *** to teach you for the week. In addition to the structure (or lack thereof), you need someone who has played enough mandolin himself to be able to help you with mandolin technique - the things that make it different from the fiddle or guitar.

[MaggieMae]

Oh, you guys are great. I have my lesson tonight, and am literally dreading it. I barely picked up my mandolin this past week, which shows this is affecting me negatively. I have had to pre-pay for the entire month, but will give notice today that I will not be renewing. I am really disappointed in Guitar Center, because they characterized this guy to me as a mandolin expert, but he is not. Unfortunately, there do not seem to be any mandolin instructors in town who are actual mandolin players.

I will look into some of these online options. I tried a few of Brad Laird's videos this week, and found myself getting flustered even there. I need direction from a real person who loves mandolins.

[yankees1]

Oh, you guys are great. I have my lesson tonight, and am literally dreading it. I barely picked up my mandolin this past week, which shows this is affecting me negatively. I have had to pre-pay for the entire month, but will give notice today that I will not be renewing. I am really disappointed in Guitar Center, because they characterized this guy to me as a mandolin expert, but he is not. Unfortunately, there do not seem to be any mandolin instructors in town who are actual mandolin players.

I will look into some of these online options. I tried a few of Brad Laird's videos this week, and found myself getting flustered even there. I need direction from a real person who loves mandolins.

Highly recommend Pete Martin at petimarpress.com.

[KEB]

I had a similar guy and stuck with him for about a year-- each time I showed up, I had to make all the decisions and moves. I had someone to play along with and I got some basic theory, but he wasn't a mandolin player-- he was a fiddler. Nice guy, but I just wasn't getting my money's worth.

I've now been self-teaching for the last couple years and I'm thinking about tracking down a teacher... I've hit a bit of a plateau and I'm not motivating properly to try new things. My ear skills stink and I'd love to get some training from someone who could help me with that a bit.

[wsugai]

I generally agree with this sentiment but I would change "need" to "want." I am not motivated by things I need but rather, by things that I want, and for me, motivation is the essential ingredient in working toward improvement in anything.

Your instructor does not have to be the best mandolinist in town, but rather the best instructor of the skills/knowledge you need.

[dusty miller]

I had a very short lesson with a guy who claimed to teach mandolin. He was just a guitar player who must of thought since the mandolin had strings and is somewhat the shape of a guitar that he could teach it. I should have asked him before I left if there was anything he wanted me to teach him! Terrible!
Don't settle for someone just because he is in your area. Like people said lots of online resources too.