Reliance on scales

[Drum58]

I have been playing mandolin for almost a year. I play with other people a lot, at least twice a week. It's 98% bluegrass, but that's cool. I am trying to learn by ear, with some reference to chord diagrams and tab, and by watching other players at jams. I have been complimented quite often on my rhythm and my "chop". I feel comfortable playing rhythm and chords in all keys. Now, I am trying to develop improvisation skills so that I can take breaks. I am learning by ear, so my breaks tend to be pretty much the straight melody line. I have decided to get more disciplined and organized in my practice, including learning scales. However, last night, there was a mandolin player in the jam who took a break every time it was offered, but his breaks were nothing but noodling in the scale over the chord progression of the song. I could tell that he was playing the correct notes in the scale, but there was hardly any reference to the melody or the tune in his breaks. Now I am worried that if I practice scales too much, I might do the same thing, and just play scales rather than melodic breaks.

Am I over thinking this thing? What is the general feeling among you experienced players out there about learning and practicing scales? I was hoping that learning and practicing scales it would be an aide to ear training and speed up my improvisational skills, but now I am not sure. Thanks for any suggestion you have.

[Earl Gamage]

As far as I'm concerned, you can't go wrong playing melody. If you know your scales you can play melodies by ear easier and better.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat. I think you are headed the right direction.

[Mike Bunting]

I have been playing mandolin for almost a year. I play with other people a lot, at least twice a week. It's 98% bluegrass, but that's cool. I am trying to learn by ear, with some reference to chord diagrams and tab, and by watching other players at jams. I have been complimented quite often on my rhythm and my "chop". I feel comfortable playing rhythm and chords in all keys. Now, I am trying to develop improvisation skills so that I can take breaks. I am learning by ear, so my breaks tend to be pretty much the straight melody line. I have decided to get more disciplined and organized in my practice, including learning scales. However, last night, there was a mandolin player in the jam who took a break every time it was offered, but his breaks were nothing but noodling in the scale over the chord progression of the song. I could tell that he was playing the correct notes in the scale, but there was hardly any reference to the melody or the tune in his breaks. Now I am worried that if I practice scales too much, I might do the same thing, and just play scales rather than melodic breaks.

Am I over thinking this thing? What is the general feeling among you experienced players out there about learning and practicing scales? I was hoping that learning and practicing scales it would be an aide to ear training and speed up my improvisational skills, but now I am not sure. Thanks for any suggestion you have.

He just has bad taste Your last paragraph is correct.

[Dave LaBoone]

As far as I'm concerned, you can't go wrong playing melody. If you know your scales you can play melodies by ear easier and better.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat. I think you are headed the right direction.

+1. You might also check out Niles Hokkanen's "Bluegrass up the neck" and "The mandolin picker's guide to bluegrass improvisation" by Jesper Rubner-Petersen. I found them both to be helpful in showing me patterns and shapes to use in my breaks.

[Mark Wilson]

"The mandolin picker's guide to bluegrass improvisation" by Jesper Rubner-Petersen.

+2

[JeffD]

I think your practicing of scales is excellent, for the ear training, ear finger key association training, knowing what each note does in a scale and knowing how a note can have an ambiguous function, being like the fifth of one scale and the fourth of another. All gigantically useful stuff.

Other things you could learn and work on is pentatonic scales.


Noodling scales over chord changes does not come from too much work on scales, IMO. It comes from not learning the melody.

[Don Stiernberg]

Dear Drum58,
You needn't worry about overplaying scales in your improv because you spend a bit of time learning, and learning them is definitely the thing to do.The fact that you pose the question shows that you would never play solos that sound like scales--you are already sensitized to that as a sound you don't prefer so your "improvisational self" won't let that happen..

Learning scales, arpeggios, chords, etc. allows for finding the notes you want on the fretboard quickly, without looking or thinking because as you notice when jamming there's not much time for that!So yes, "learning and practicing scales" will be "an aid to ear training and speed up (your) improvisational skills. As your doing that, take the extra second to memorize the names of the notes, and most definitely keep track of how things look and feel as well.

Hopefully these observations will help:

The mandolin is symmetrical. When you learn a closed(fretted) scale position, (preferrably utilizing all four fingers), you
have learned them all.

Melodic patterns keep your solos from sounding like scales. There are many books with wonderful patterns to find in all keys and program into your improvisational vocabulary.

The most important notes of a chord or scale are the third and the seventh. They announce the quality and function of the chord sounds. The third tells us if the tonality is major or minor, the seventh tells us if it is dominant(like G7) or not. Roots and fifths are common to both types, therefore carrying a bit less info...example G7, Gm7, Gmaj7...the notes G and D are common to all 3. What this means is that the 3rds and 7ths should be your "anchor" notes in a solo..

My friend Jesper Rubner-Petersen has a great book called The Mandolin Picker's Guide to Bluegrass Improvisation which covers these things really well. Getting Into Jazz Mandolin by Ted Eschliman and Jazz Mandolin Appetizers by yours truly might be helpful also. Don't let the J-word throw you, the principals and fretboard architecture can be shared across all genres..

Once you know where things are on the board, another fun thing to try is to sing a solo, then learn it on the mandolin. Don't worry how your voice sounds, the idea is that if you make up a solo to sing it automatically would not sound like running scales or a bunch of licks hung together. More likely is it will be an accessible melody--we all tend to vocalize things that we want to hear. This is why favorite soloists are described as "lyrical" or "singing", maybe why a good solo seems to "tell a story"...

Thirds and sevenths outline the tunes harmonic structure for the listeners, but another thing to try to avoid scale running, etc. is to start your solo on a color tone like the sixth or ninth rather than on an arpeggio tone...see where it takes you! Each interval has a feeling...

Keep it fun!

[Alex Orr]

A couple of points....

Sometimes when you're in a jam, and you hear a song you've never heard before, you may not be able to figure out a lovely melodic solo in a minute or two, while playing, and trying to keep rhythm. In those cases falling back on licks and scale patterns can result in something that can often sound quite good and be fun for you to play. If the choice is between never taking a break unless I have a firm knowledge of the melody and can play a note-perfect melodic solo of the tune in any key in which it is called, or improvising a break using some scale patterns and licks loosely following the melody and chord changes, well...it's a jam and I'm there to have fun and participate in playing music, so if all I can do is turn out a nice lick-based solo, then that's what I'll do. Of course if I feel like I can't do either, then I'll pass, and in general, if someone calls a fiddle tune I don't know then I almost always pass.

Noodling over scales and turning out a melodic lick-based solo are different things. The first can be completely aimless while the latter can be quite musical.

The Jesper book actually is basically all about that. It doesn't really explain the basics of melody in any serious sense at all, nor does it give you basic melodic breaks to a couple of dozen fiddle tunes and 40-50 vocal tunes in order for you to memorize them. Instead it shows how to use scales over chord changes, and how to form licks out of those scales, to compose a tasteful and musical lick-based solo. Jesper never says you should avoid the melody, but his point is that whether as a fall back on unfamiliar tunes, or as a way to spice up and modify a basic melodic break, licks can be a wonderful thing to use in improvising.

[JonZ]

You can play a compelling solo that either hews to the melody, or doesn't. The closer you stay to the melody, the easier it is to play something that sounds "right" to the listener. You don't have to limit yourself to the melody line, or even the notes of the scale that the melody is based on, but the farther outside you go, the harder it is to play something tasteful. It can be fun territory to explore.

A typical progression for an improviser might be to learn to ornament the melody, then develop licks based on the pentatonic scale or blues scale, then make up a new melody based on the scale, then to explore all 12 tones. What makes a good solo depends more on the tastefulness of your choices, than the framework you apply.

[Drum58]

Thank you Don Stiernberg! Your reply was very, very helpful. In fact, your reply was a great lesson in itself. Thanks for the advice, the tips, and the encouragement. I feel much better now.

[Drum58]

Many thanks to all who replied to my question. You folks are very kind, and gave me a wealth of good advice. Thanks for all the tips and all the encouragement. This is a very player friendly site!

[Drum58]

Thanks, Alex Orr. You make some excellent points. Great advice. I feel more comfortable going forward with your suggestions.

[tkdboyd]

So thankful that Mr. Don Stiernberg's shares his wisdom so freely. What an awesome resource.

[Bill Baldridge]

I don't have anything to add to the good feedback you have gotten concerning the value of practicing scales. If you haven't yet had a chance to listen to Bluegrass Mandolin Extravaganza available through dawgnet.com, although I am sure I got my copy at a music store, it might give you some insight into how much variety there is available while staying at least in the ballpark of the melody. It was helpful to me to have eight masters of bluegrass mandolin play the same tune. There is a wide variety available after leaving a note for note repetition of the "straight melody line" before it sounds like Amazing Grace being played over Old Joe Clark.

[bohemianbiker]

Wow, I am really glad I read this thread. I've been taking classical mandolin lessons for the last 2 years, and have begun making trips to jams as I'd like to branch out to other forms of music. But I feel utterly lost at these jams when it comes time to take a break. My whole musical life (clarinet and classical guitar) has been reading from sheet music for orchestra/concert band, and jamming is like being on another planet. I did get some good advice about faking breaks, but I marvel at the musicians who can do something other than just play the melody, and wondered what it was that they were doing, and how they got there. I believe one of the books in this thread is in my future.

I would like to echo Drum58's thanks to all the wonderful folks who take the time to share their knowledge. It is much appreciated. bb

[belbein]

My whole musical life (clarinet and classical guitar) has been reading from sheet music for orchestra/concert band, and jamming is like being on another planet.

So, two comments. One: the thing about folk music is that it's very traditional, in the sense of "oral tradition" traditional--the underlying structure is going to be pretty predictable if you're playing blues, jigs, reels, whatever. After all, those guys sitting around a fire in the year dot didn't have scores or "Charts" to hand out: they had to be able to improvise around a predictable rhythm. You have to learn the rhythmic form.

If you've go the rhythm, then you just need to know the key. Any note you play in that key in rhythm is going to be more likely than not sort of within the ballpark of the melody. They aren't all going to sound good, but you're going to be in the ballpark (and if it's wrong you can always claim it was a jazz note).

Then you need to learn the chords that are the I, IV and V chords for that key. (This isn't that hard: for major keys, you only have half a dozen chords that cover the majority of major keys that folk music is written in). Once you know the rhythmic structure and they key, then you have a choice of three chords to kind of sound out the melody. Three chords! Not 13 notes. Not dimisisheds and 7ths and 5ths-compressed-and-sustained-with-D-in-the-bass ... three chords.

I found that once I limited my goal to being able to just distinguish those three chords, then I was able to really start hearing the musical movement, so to speak. And that got me "off book," or at least got me started.

[Alex Orr]

Wow, I am really glad I read this thread. I've been taking classical mandolin lessons for the last 2 years, and have begun making trips to jams as I'd like to branch out to other forms of music. But I feel utterly lost at these jams when it comes time to take a break...

The Rubner-Petersen book may be of great value to you. At they very least it should give you some ideas, and given the amount of material in there, you can literally make it a part of your daily practice regimen for years and still be re-discovering and re-learning a treasure trove of great licks and great ideas for licks and solos.

I'd suggest playing along with songs on your iTunes. Go to Amazon (or some similar site) and download some of the bluegrass songs you hear most often at the jam you attend, or that you find in tune books, and just play along at home. Use a program like Transcribe to change the pitch if you want to work on improvising to the song in a different key.

[ralph johansson]

I have decided to get more disciplined and organized in my practice, including learning scales. However, last night, there was a mandolin player in the jam who took a break every time it was offered, but his breaks were nothing but noodling in the scale over the chord progression of the song. I could tell that he was playing the correct notes in the scale, but there was hardly any reference to the melody or the tune in his breaks. Now I am worried that if I practice scales too much, I might do the same thing, and just play scales rather than melodic breaks.

Am I over thinking this thing? What is the general feeling among you experienced players out there about learning and practicing scales? I was hoping that learning and practicing scales it would be an aide to ear training and speed up my improvisational skills, but now I am not sure. Thanks for any suggestion you have.

It helps to clarify concepts a bit. What exactly do you mean by "noodling in the scale over the chord progression"
without "reference to the melody"? Is that what you always hear as soon as the soloist isn't just paraphrasing the melody?
In my Bluegrass days people sometimes asked me why don't you play more of the melody, and I usually replied "there are four verses and two choruses in this song, all on the same melody - don't you think there's just a little room for some
variety and contrast?"

To me this is a very good example of what a good mandolin player can do on a fairly simple tune. The solo builds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8JA8AUnRxc



How do you get there? Scales are just a starting point, the alphabet of a musical language; you certainly need to know where the notes are on the fretboard. The question then is how to build a vocabulary. Back then I started with fiddle tunes that I transcribed from a Howdy Forrester LP - in fact these tunes were my motive for playing the mandolin - on the guitar there were too many difficult string crossings. Basically these tunes are made up of scales and arpeggios. (Brilliancy is a particularly good example; my fondness for this tune led to me and my band recording it in 1969).

The next step could be finding ways around the chords, altering them, superimposing, e.g., blues scales, or Dorian and Mixolydian over major chords à la Monroe. The go on exploring.

[Drum58]

It helps to clarify concepts a bit. What exactly do you mean by "noodling in the scale over the chord progression"
without "reference to the melody"? Is that what you always hear as soon as the soloist isn't just paraphrasing the melody?
In my Bluegrass days people sometimes asked me why don't you play more of the melody, and I usually replied "there are four verses and two choruses in this song, all on the same melody - don't you think there's just a little room for some
variety and contrast?"

To me this is a very good example of what a good mandolin player can do on a fairly simple tune. The solo builds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8JA8AUnRxc



How do you get there? Scales are just a starting point, the alphabet of a musical language; you certainly need to know where the notes are on the fretboard. The question then is how to build a vocabulary. Back then I started with fiddle tunes that I transcribed from a Howdy Forrester LP - in fact these tunes were my motive for playing the mandolin - on the guitar there were too many difficult string crossings. Basically these tunes are made up of scales and arpeggios. (Brilliancy is a particularly good example; my fondness for this tune led to me and my band recording it in 1969).

The next step could be finding ways around the chords, altering them, superimposing, e.g., blues scales, or Dorian and Mixolydian over major chords à la Monroe. The go on exploring.

Hmmm...I am not sure that I understand you or that you understand me. Chris Thile's solos had the underlying melody, the basic tune, running all through them. Tremendous improvisation, tremendous embellishment with licks, but I still hear the melody of the song in his solos. He embellishes "around" the melody. The guy I referred to simply played random notes from the scales over the chords in the songs (and not in a good way, like jazz improv) without any reference to the melody or the tune of the song at all, and without any discernible melody or tune in and of itself. If you just listened to this guy's solos, you could never name the song we were playing. Listening to Chris Thiles solos in the youtube clip you linked, I could listen to his wonderfully embellished solos full of really cool licks, and still tell you the name of the song he is playing.

[bohemianbiker]

Just wanted to chime in to say thanks for the additional tips. I received "Modes on Mandolin: Improve Your Improvisation" by Todd Collins as a Christmas gift, which has been sitting by my music stand for about the last month. So perhaps I should open and use that book instead of relying on osmosis .... ;-)

But am leaning towards getting the Rubner-Petersen book. There are a bunch of bluegrass jams in my area, and if I can start attending (and actually taking breaks in) more of those, I'm sure this will help me progress as a musician. Thanks again. bb

[JeffD]

The "trick" of a good break is that where ever it goes, whatever it does, it should be obvious that the performer knows the melody, even when departing from it.

What makes a break boring, IMO, is when I strongly suspect the musician doesn't know the melody, and is just making something up. No matter how blistering and brilliant the break, if it doesn't sound like it belongs to the song, it doesn't.

[Beanzy]

I often play it 'safe' and stick very close to the melody for the early part, then I like to have the melody going in my head then 'accompany' that.

[JRcohan]

Don Stiernberg knows his stuff! I have gained a great deal by focusing on the 3rd and 7th scale degrees, the meat of the chord and often the melody. Learning scales can be less than exciting. Application of accenting certain scale degrees in improvisation or composition can be a blast!

The 3rd defines the Major or Minor feeling of the chord, very important.

The 7th defines dominant chords from regular major chords, as well as accenting Maj7, and Minor7 chords.

Keep in mind scale degrees when practicing scales, also try not to start on the tonic every time. Avoiding this makes for more interesting sounds. Also the tonic as well as the 5th scale degree are often taken care of by a bass player, or guitar player. Focusing of other scale degrees will expand the sound in a group or duo setting.

Hope this is helpful, good luck and keep delving.

[Alex Orr]

also try not to start on the tonic every time. Avoiding this makes for more interesting sounds.

Also, at least in a lot of bluegrass vocal numbers, the melody line starts by essentially walking up to the tonic.

[JRcohan]

Also, at least in a lot of bluegrass vocal numbers, the melody line starts by essentially walking up to the tonic.

Alex is spot on here!
I should have specified the genre. It is seldom scene, (pun intended) for extended chords to show up in traditional and bluegrass music. The 3rd and 7th trick really applies more to a jazz/swing tunes.

Bluegrass fiddle tunes, and traditional songs. ie. (Red Haired Boy, or Will the Circle Be Unbroken) often have melody notes that are the tonic and/or the 5th scale degree.

Sketching out the scale degrees that correlate to melody notes is a great way to see how scales work in musical context. Melodies in jazz differ from bluegrass.

In my opinion, when going for a jazzier sound or attempting to, "spell out changes," is the most common way to use the "axis of 3rds and 7ths." Listening to genres like Swing, Bebop, and jazz are when we hear lead players favoring these scale degrees.

Below is a video for the bluegrass player interested in scales. I play through G major, D major, and A major in the first position, all common bluegrass keys.



Tabs for this can be found on my website.

Often the 3rd and 7th emphasis is in tunes played in horn keys like Eb. In those flat keys I use less open strings, and more of Ted Eschliman's FFcp from, "Getting into Jazz Mandolin."