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Thread: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

  1. #1

    Default Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Hi everyone!

    I'm new to the forum. My grandmother left me this mandolin though there is no label on it as to the date or make of this beautiful mandolin. The fret board is pure mother of pearl along with the bird shown in the picture. Was hoping someone could provide me with information on this and what the possible value might be.

    Thanks in advance!!

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  2. #2
    its a very very long song Jim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Great instrument, I am interested to see what some of the experts here say. I think a picture of the the tuning machines from the back as well as a picture of the front of the machine head will be helpful in identifying. Also a picture of the back of the bowl since number of ribs is related to quality.
    Jim Richmond

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    I'm with Jim. More photos would be very helpful in estimating an ID: sides, back, headstock and tuners.

    The thick MOP top banding and particular pickguard do not make me think L+H. (But they are always a reasonable guess sans a label.)

    Those all MOP fretboards kind of creep me out thinking about what the must feel like under the fingertips. But I've never played one so it may be all in my imagination.

    Value is going to be dependent on it's relative playability, which is going to be entirely dependent on the condition of the neck and its relative angle to the body / bowl of the mandolin. Sadly, these bowlback mandolins, despite their obvious craft, materials and detailing, do not command much of a price these days. Far too many were made, and so many are still around relative to the current taste / demand that the prices are inevitably depressed.

    If the neck is in good alignment, this might be a $300 mandolin on a good day. A very good day. Others may quibble with me on that, but probably not by more than 25-30%. If the neck alignment is off and the playing action (distance from strings to fretboard) is poor (say 3/32" or more) then you are talking $100 max. Someone might pay a bit more to chop-shop the mother of pearl.

    Glad you brought the mandolin by. Don't let the economic numbers qualify what it might be actually worth. It was your grandmothers mandolin! We'd love to hear more about her, the music she played, where she was from and where she might have acquired the mandolin. This is the Mandolin Cafe, after all, not Antique Roadshow....

    Mick
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    i haven't seen a mandolin with a MOP fretboard but I did have a Gretsch Tenor Banjo with one and that was a 30's/40's phenomenon... I agree with Brunello on possible value. The only American made bowlbacks worth any coin are the higher end Martins - and even they have fallen on soft times...

  5. #5
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy View Post
    i haven't seen a mandolin with a MOP fretboard but I did have a Gretsch Tenor Banjo with one and that was a 30's/40's phenomenon...
    Interesting; I would have said earlier. The Pearloid "mother of toilet seat" plastic fingerboards (headstock overlays, pickguards etc.) appeared in the 1920's, I believe, often used instead of actual mother-of-pearl. Pearloid was certainly less expensive, and could be molded or machined into shape without having to be cut from shell like the "real thing."

    Similar history with celluloid imitation tortoise shell.
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  6. #6
    Confused... or?
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    A side view would also show the action (string height above the fretboard) and possible sagging of the top under the bridge. But from the 3 photos first posted, it looks pretty good!

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    This is the Mandolin Cafe, after all, not Antique Roadshow....
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    The Eagle inlay on the pickguard is prob a stock item from a pearl supplier -- it doesn't mean that it is not of value. I agree with my esteemed colleagues on value. I have a very nice looking pearly no-name bowlback with a deluxe pickguard inlay. It looks in relative OK shape but there can be issues that are not apparent in photos. Real pearl fretboards BTW also present a bit of problems with refretting tho, of course, it can be done.
    Jim

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Pearly Queen.



    One of the chewiest guitar licks to emerge from the era. It was a long time before I learned the source of the term.

    Mick
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Wow! Thanks everyone for all the great replies!!

    My grandmother played a variety of instruments. Piano, violin and this mandolin. She was born in New York of Russian/Polish origin.
    I've included more pictures as some had requested different angles and the wood. Thanks again for all the great information!

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  10. #10
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Well, looking thru my jpeg files, I did find a mandolin that matches the OP's however, it, too, is unlabelled. This one is very close with the exception of the pearl border on the body. Sorry I cannot be of more help.
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    Jim

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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    I think Weyman used to do those Saturn inlay logos, but I suspect they may have been off the peg inlays.
    Eoin



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  12. #12
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    I have photos of a couple of Washburn 1897 Cremonatone models with pearl fretboards, but neither have those inlays and the head has an inlayed black veneer front and the top of the head is a different shape. The saturn inlay 'tended' to be on instruments from Philadelphia, maybe New York, but rarely I think from Chicago. I do have a pic of a Weymann with a pearl fretboard and similar inlays, but a totally different soundboard edging. A similar pearl edging is on a Yosco mandolin from New York, but all the other details are different.

    cheers

  13. #13
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    I just had a webby look and there's this one on Antebellum.........
    http://antebelluminstruments.blogspo...-mandolin.html
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    It's worth posting just for those tuners anyway

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    Does anyone know why Saturn was used on so many instruments? I found loads of guitars etc with it too.

    ooo! and a Mandolute

    Wikipedia kind of answers my question as to why Saturn
    " In December, he was celebrated at what is perhaps the most famous of the Roman festivals, the Saturnalia, a time of feasting, role reversals, free speech, gift-giving and revelry."
    Last edited by Beanzy; Feb-10-2014 at 5:26am. Reason: mandolute
    Eoin



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  14. #14
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    While on the Antebellum site I found this tentative ID of a similar mandolin as "Oscar Schmidt in New Jersey around c.1900-1910"

    It has these features.
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    But How about this?
    http://www.tdpri.com/forum/other-gui...-mandolin.html

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    "Angelo Mannello
    Manufacturer of the finest
    mandolins, Mandolas and guitars
    Highest award at the world's columbian exposition(That's another name for the Chicago World Fair)
    Tail piece is marked with patent date of 1886."
    Eoin



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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    My general feeling would be East Coast / NJ / NY / Philadelphia rather than Chicago. That the OP's GM was in NY adds some speculative cred.

    The only thing close I have in my files is this Stella (made by Schmidt?) with some similar details.

    The Schmidt (w or w/o Mannello) hook-up might be a reasonable bet, though very difficult to be certain. The headstock that Jim posted seems the closest match.

    Mick
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Wow that is a real beauty.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  17. #17
    Registered User pfox14's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Gibson first used "mother of toilet seat" on the model AC Century of Progress mandolin starting in 1933. The actual name was Pyralin and it was made by DuPont and debuted at the 1932-33 World's Fair in Chicago, which is why Gibson used it. Your mandolin clearly pre-dates Pyralin, so my guess is it's real MOP.

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    Visit www.fox-guitars.com - cool Gibson & Epiphone history and more. Vintage replacement mandolin pickguards

  18. #18
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    This mandolin is now on eBay for starting bid of $600. No further comments...yet.
    Jim

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  19. #19
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    This mandolin is now on eBay for starting bid of $600. No further comments...yet.
    I feel so used.

    Mick
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    I have lost count of all those instances where a person enquires about their family heirloom, a grandma(pa) mandolin of a great sentimental value to them, just that they would like to know more about it for insurance purposes.
    The next step is the mandolin is listed for sale or eBay, and the poster is never to be heard of again.

  21. #21
    My Florida is scooped pheffernan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    I don't think the OP was at all deceptive about his/her intentions in this instance; in fact, the "possible value" inquiry was a pretty clear signal of a determination to sell.
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  22. #22
    Registered User MANDOLINMYSTER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Quote Originally Posted by pheffernan View Post
    I don't think the OP was at all deceptive about his/her intentions in this instance; in fact, the "possible value" inquiry was a pretty clear signal of a determination to sell.
    I agree, I don't mind sharing info with those less knowledgeable than us. Besides we get to see some pretty neat stuff from time to time. Unfortunately the OP's estimate of value is off. Nice bowl back but 2 bills on a good day would be a victory.
    Michael Lettieri

  23. #23

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    I'm sorry. Please don't feel used. I really don't want to get rid of it but just wanted to see if there was any interest on eBay (hence the high price) or if anyone else on eBay could provide more information.

  24. #24
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    After posting here for many years and frankly enjoying the detective work, I am no longer surprised and certainly am not insulted by someone turning around and selling it. You will notice that Mick has an emoticon... he is amused, not annoyed. I do think that kramesauce is shooting high (as he admits, on purpose) esp for an unlabelled bowlback with some sketchy and sloppy amateur repairs (viz. the glue seeping out under the clasp).

    I rarely if ever post my estimate of worth but more a range. Obviously there are some folks who are ready to buy a car on the proceeds and I feel it is good to put the general value in perspective.
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  25. #25
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy? Vintage? Antique?

    Quote Originally Posted by kramesauce View Post
    I'm sorry. Please don't feel used. I really don't want to get rid of it but just wanted to see if there was any interest on eBay (hence the high price) or if anyone else on eBay could provide more information.
    Well, if you sell it on eBay, for $600 or whatever, you could donate some of the sale price to the Mandolin CafeŽ, for the free expertise you obtained here.
    Allen Hopkins
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