[Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

[sunburst]

The tuner position is the thing, not the shape of the peghead. Gibson made the change in tuner position during the Loar years, sometime in 1923, and the tuners plates went from converging toward the nut to converging toward the opposite end of the peghead on the F5 peghead as well. (One might think that someone designing a mandolin under the name "The Loar" would know that, but I guess not...)

[EdHanrahan]

That's a GREAT rant, John. I'd only add "... favorable price point and a shmaltzy name ...", but that's just me.

If it were my The Loar, I'd loosen the outside G string a bit and get all 3 loops below the string end, not w/ two loops below and one above as it is now. That has two advantages:

- The two G strings will be separated and not vibrate against each other. Buzzing issue resolved w/o add-on business cards ... I think!
- The end of the string will be pushed (upward) more securely against the top of the capstan hole, better holding it place.

It looks like the string ends are cut VERY short, AND that the G string in question is not fully pushed into the capstan hole - it's out by 3 or 4 windings. So I'd make sure that the string is fully pushed into the hole as tension is added during re-tuning.

FWIW, the other G seems to be out by 2 or 3 windings, also not ideal.

[Caleb]

My The Loar 600 looks like that from the front but the first G passes below the second G and does not touch. Perhaps the way the strings are wound around the posts is squirrely. I think restringing is a good first option and some people wind a little piece of leather between the pairs, usually down behind the bridge but also up top to help with buzzes and rattles around the headstock. For the record I have read threads criticizing all of the brands mentioned in this thread for cosmetic or minor physical fit or finish problems (especially The Loar). I think instruments at this price point need TLC either by the dealer or the owner. The trade off is affordability. Some folks are in positions to afford a stable of impressive instruments... the rest of us chase the sound. I think the gap is getting closer.

Perry, where'd you get those beautiful black tuners? I ordered some from Stew-Mac that came with cheapo looking shiny, black plastic tuner pegs. They worked about as well as they looked so I sent them back. I like the matte look of yours. I have an Eastman 505 which uses F-styles tuners due to its large headstock.

Sorry for the thread derail...

[Perry Babasin]

Those are Stew-Mac Golden-Age relic brass with black buttons, I love them and they hold tuning very well. No financial interest, but I sure like them.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/M...in_Tuners.html

[FLATROCK HILL]

Perhaps I didn't elaborate enough in my first post of this thread.
It is a design flaw. A design for a stringed instrument is not finished until the string paths are determined and accounted for. Someone designed the peghead and the tuner positions without consideration of the string paths, and we end up with the better part of a page of remedies for string buzzing. Things like pieces of felt, business cards, moving nut slots and so forth, when a better design would have made the whole conversation moot.
Things like string paths are easily overlooked by inexperienced builders designing instruments, and apparently, in the company's haste to bring these things to market at a favorable price point it was overlooked, perhaps because they didn't want to pay to have an experienced hand involved in the design, perhaps because some exec-type was in charge and didn't put the right person on this part of the design, we don't know, but it went into production this way regardless, and now that the tooling is set up and that investment is already made, it would probably be a costly thing for the manufacturer to change.
Sorry for the rant (I could go on, believe me!) but it's one of my pet peeves about manufactured goods, especially those intended for the "bargain" market.

I am under the impression that the original prototype of the 'The Loar' was designed by Greg Rich, and that it was built by Bruce Weber. If that is true (and I have no way to verify it), that would put the blame for this poor design on their shoulders.

I kind of doubt that that's the case though. It looks more to my untrained eye, like a case of the manufacturer NOT sticking to the build-quality/tolerences of the original design.

[Tobin]

I assume this is what we are talking about. I got this off The Loar's site.

Yup, right there where the second G string passes the first G string's tuner post. Robert says touching is OK, but I rather tend to think that even if it doesn't create buzzing, it's at least going to cause extra friction when tuning the strings. That second G string has to scrape past the first one every time you tighten it up.

It doesn't take much of an angle for the tuners to allow plenty of space between the strings. Most modern A5 styles (like snakeheads) have a generous angle, as the tuners follow the angle of the peghead. F5s tend to have a shallower angle between the tuners. But it does take some; if they're parallel, you get this string touching problem.

Just as an example, here's a photo of my mandolin showing a very slight angle between the tuners which allows about one string diameter of gap between those G strings, and nary a problem.

It's such a ridiculously simple thing; I honestly can't understand how The Loar has managed to build this many mandolins without seeing it.

[sunburst]

...If that is true (and I have no way to verify it), that would put the blame for this poor design on their shoulders.

I kind of doubt that that's the case though. It looks more to my untrained eye, like a case of the manufacturer NOT sticking to the build-quality/tolerences of the original design.

I'm not trying to blame anyone in particular, decisions like these are made more-or-less collectively, and it is entirely possible that the actual manufacturers deviated from the design to better fit their tooling or whatever. It it one of those things that "slips through the cracks" when things are designed in one place by one group, made in another place by another group, and sold by another group in many places. It is the system that is at fault, I suppose, but that's the way we get points and scrolls in the $1000 - $2000 dollar range.

[sunburst]

It's such a ridiculously simple thing; I honestly can't understand how The Loar has managed to build this many mandolins without seeing it.

Oh, they've probably seen it and probably know about it, but once tooling is set up and production runs begun, it can be difficult and expensive for a factory to correct things like this.

[Caleb]

Those are Stew-Mac Golden-Age relic brass with black buttons, I love them and they hold tuning very well. No financial interest, but I sure like them.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/M...in_Tuners.html

Thanks. Funny but the ones I got were SM Golden Age as well but they had shiny black buttons.

[Tobin]

I don't know what kind of tooling would be typically used for drilling the tuner holes in the peghead, but I would imagine it either uses a simple jig or even a CNC programmed drill. Is it really that hard to change? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.

[Kevin Stevens]

I am under the impression that the original prototype of the 'The Loar' was designed by Greg Rich, and that it was built by Bruce Weber. If that is true (and I have no way to verify it), that would put the blame for this poor design on their shoulders.

I kind of doubt that that's the case though. It looks more to my untrained eye, like a case of the manufacturer NOT sticking to the build-quality/tolerences of the original design.

That is true, I have one of the 8 prototypes designed by Greg and built by Bruce. It does not have this problem, and is a great sounding mandolin. I also have a The Loar 700, while it is an OK sounding instrument I had an odd buzz on it after I sent it away to Steve of Cumberland Acoustics for a new bridge/setup, so I raised the action on it. Now I can't wait to get home to see if the G strings are touching on it, maybe that was the cause of the weird buzz.

[Perry Babasin]

There is one of those The Loar prototypes built by Bruce Weber on ebay at the moment...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291078528030...84.m1423.l2649

I think that it doesn't have a lot to do with what is being produced now

[noah finn]

For what its worth I've had an LM700 for a little over two years and I've never had buzzing or strings touching at the tuners on the g string.

I think folks can be very hard on the "the Loar" mandolins. I think that's partly due to the manufacturers choice of name.

To put these mandolins put it into context I paid about 800 euro for my 700. A Kentucky 1000 would cost me 1800 euro
http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/produ...00-F-Mandolin/

I trust the opinions of tthose that write on this site so before buying my lm700 I took a trip to from Ireland to the UK to play a KM1000 I did not hear enough of a difference to warrant the extra money. Andrew who posts here as Almeria strings did an accurate and comprehensive description of the lm700 he also posted soundclip comparisons if I recall while cosmetic issues where highlighted sound wise the lm700 held its own in much more esteemed company.

I work in the area of fine art and traditional crafts so I am aware of the time, skill and effort it takes to create high mandolins. I understand that with an 800 euro mandolin there will always be compromises - in a musical instrument I'll take sound over looks all day long.

[sunburst]

I don't know what kind of tooling would be typically used for drilling the tuner holes in the peghead, but I would imagine it either uses a simple jig or even a CNC programmed drill. Is it really that hard to change? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.

I don't know either, or how many necks are already milled and ready to be mounted to bodies, or how many levels of management the decision would have to go through to make a change, or how many countries separate those who would make the decision from those who would make the change. I don't really know anything about the process of designing the instruments, what the specs are, who does the manufacturing or anything, really. All I know is, they apparently went into production with a design problem that would have been relatively easy to fix before going into production.
If these were made in a small shop with all workers in the same place, or if they came from a one-man shop, the change would be simple by comparison.

[Steve Zawacki]

In the end, what all of this proves is why having a dealer experienced in instrument set-up being between the customer and the supply chain is important. All of the OP's design problems were totally mitigated with my 520 by going through a very reputable dealer who set the 520 up cleanly despite the design problem prior to delivery. With mass-produced goods being distributed worldwide, "stuff" does happen, but can be avoided.

Granted, when the instrument is being produced in very small numbers or for a custom order, the customer does not (at least, should not) need an intermediary involved, as that "custom" builder will perform "work of art" quality control prior to delivery. The builders who participate here, as evidenced by the sharing of their knowledge and the combined beauty and functionality of their work, should be viewed as artisans rather than builders. The more I learn about mandolins, the more I appreciate these artisans, and the more discriminating I get with subsequent acquisitions.

However, art (mandolin) appreciation is evolutionary. Being able to fully appreciate an artisan's talent and skills usually takes experience with "made for the masses" goods and their expected imperfections. That experience educates the customer on the subtle differences which exist between product and art. I know my 520 is not going to be a "forever" mandolin, but it does provide a very affordable and usable "F-style" platform during my learning curve, however long that may take. I have no regrets in buying the 520, because It meets a need for the present. I do know that when I feel ready to acquire a "work of art" F-Style mandolin to replace the 520, it will be because what I learned because of having the 520. I'll be more discriminating with the next F-Style and know why certain of the artisan's efforts add value (functionally and aesthetically) to the instrument.

Spencer's experience spotlights the issues when dealing with mass-produced unserviced mandolins regardless of the manufacturer. However, if it wasn't for the mass-producers, how many folk would bypass the mandolin completely due to cost?

BTW, thanks to these "learning" experiences with mass-produced mandolins, I was able to really appreciate what Steve Smith does with his RedLine Traveler line and jumped on the chance to acquire a truly unique and work-of-art RT which became recently available .

[JeffD]

Whether it causes any buzzing or not, I can't think its a good thing that the strings touch. Constant tuning of the G strings will cause some wear and risk string breakage.

[Folkmusician.com]

When I said it was ok, I didn't mean that it was ideal. I see this so much, in fact I am working on a customer's mandolin right now and here is what I am looking at. This is not what I would consider a low end instrument and the string is hovering against the post. Far from ideal, but not causing a serious problem. I will be creative with the string winding and it should be fine.

[Perry Babasin]

Thanks. Funny but the ones I got were SM Golden Age as well but they had shiny black buttons.

Mine are plastic but they have a semi-gloss sheen. Did you buy a polished nickel version? I think in their pictures it has shiny plastic and the relic versions are matte finish. I wonder if they could be requested with matte?...

[Dale Ludewig]

To change this at the production facility could well entail more than changing where the tuner holes are drilled. Once you do that, the tuner buttons change relative to where they are next to the outer edge of the headstock. So it could necessitate reshaping the headstock outline. More tooling changes. Solutions requiring more solutions. And it could all have been avoided by a better design.

[sunburst]

... And it could all have been avoided by a better design.

Or by sticking to the design at the production facility. For all we know, the design that went to the factory (probably the lowest bidder) was better but costs were saved by doing it this way. Or maybe, they just didn't think it was important to drill the holes where the design specified. Maybe they already had tooling for a peghead shape with this hole position... we just don't know.

[mandolirius]

I have to confess to taking a bit of guilty pleasure seeing this brand bashed so often. I have always hated the name. There's a place for all levels of instruments in the market. The availability of lower-cost instruments has certainly improved the prospects for finding an under-one thousand dollar instrument that sounds ok and is playable. I don't know that this brand is any better or worse that Eastman or Kentucky.

IMHO they had no business adopting the name Loar, particularly when you consider the reverence that name carries in the mandolin world. It's like "gettin' above your raising" or something like that - just a cheap attempt to associate something of relatively low quality with the holy grail (for some of us). Plus, it sound ridiculous when said out loud, as in the following example:

My The Loar 600 looks like...

End of rant, no offense to any owners of this brand.

[Caleb]

Mine are plastic but they have a semi-gloss sheen. Did you buy a polished nickel version? I think in their pictures it has shiny plastic and the relic versions are matte finish. I wonder if they could be requested with matte?...

Yes, mine were the polished nickel version.

[Perry Babasin]

Thanks! I was ready to buy the polished version for another mandolin I'm working on. I think I'll get the relic nickel instead!

[Steve Zawacki]

I have to confess to taking a bit of guilty pleasure seeing this brand bashed so often. I have always hated the name. There's a place for all levels of instruments in the market. The availability of lower-cost instruments has certainly improved the prospects for finding an under-one thousand dollar instrument that sounds ok and is playable. I don't know that this brand is any better or worse that Eastman or Kentucky.

IMHO they had no business adopting the name Loar, particularly when you consider the reverence that name carries in the mandolin world. It's like "gettin' above your raising" or something like that - just a cheap attempt to associate something of relatively low quality with the holy grail (for some of us). Plus, it sound ridiculous when said out loud, as in the following example:

End of rant, no offense to any owners of this brand.

Your point is well taken. I have also found it "peculiar" how no mandolins branded as "Kentucky" are made in the Blue Grass State or even in the Americas. There are a slew of other examples of creative brand-names, especially in the musical instrument industry, capitalizing on association with a product's creation or locale.

[Perry Babasin]

What modern automobile name has anything to do with anything, other than Marketing? Marketing sells us everything from toothpaste to our next President. Don't dismiss it's power.