First IV Kit Build, Lessons learned and guidance sought

[sish]

Howdy Cafe!

I wanted to update you all so to my progress on my first IV (A-Style, F holes) kit build.

Imgur Album
http://imgur.com/a/KsRpc

First, the details. I used the IV (International Violin Kit,). It's not a bad kit at all, the only main issue I saw was the hardware is on the weak side. The bridge appears to be less than 100% stable. The tuners are lower grade as is the tail piece. However, I spent $115, so I don't think you can really ask for that much.

I upgraded a number of things, I put on an Ashton Bailey Tailpiece, Gold Tuners (Golden Gate). A special thanks to Bryce for sending me some replacement gold bushings free of charge, I owe you man!

Next, I purchased TUSQ nuts, I was really happy with those. Learned a lot on how to setup a mandolin from that mandolin setup e-book that is making it's way around the cafe. It's very well put together and saved me a number of mistakes.

For a finish I decided to do something fun. I have a lot of experience with Shellac, especially the beautiful Napa made "Black Shellac". I decided to finish it like a Violin, ie little finish on the neck and darker on the body.

Like I said, I'm very pleased especially for my first build. However, for the next one I am looking for some guidance on getting a richer tone.

The tone on this instrument is rather hollow in comparison to my Breedlove. Now, my Breedlove was 10x the price of this instrument, however, if I should do something different to the tone bars, perhaps get a different bridge (thinking ebony, this rosewood bridge is looking bad).

Is there a reasonably simple way for me to get an idea of how it will sound BEFORE I close it up? It took a few weekends to shape the nut and work the action, etc BEFORE I really figured out how it sounded. This might be just something you have to deal with, but I thought I would ask regardless. I DO plan on doing this again.

Thanks everyone who helped!



Matt

[JEStanek]

Congratulations! Thanks for sharing your process.

Jamie

[sish]

Congratulations! Thanks for sharing your process.

Jamie

My pleasure, it was fun to do, turned out just about like I'd hoped..

Matt

[Caleb]

Beautiful instrument. Great job.

[Pete Jenner]

No advice. Good job.

[misterb]

Very, very pretty!!!! I am working on my second one of these. I am very pleased with the tone of my first one.

I followed the newer Siminoff book for carving and assembly,
replaced the headstock veneer with a piece of .080" fiddleback maple,
carved the top and back to the contours provided in the Siminoff book,
replaced the supplied tone bars with some better pieces of Sitka spruce,
located tone bars IAW Siminoff and tap tuned/carved/scalloped/shaped to his target notes,
tried to tune the back and f holes to Siminoff specs but could not get them to come in
replaced the bridge with one from StewMac
made a bone nut
levelled and crowned the frets
used J 74 strings
finished using Siminoff directions with analine dye and tru oil top coat.

I have another pretty good mandolin (a StewMac kit built by someone else) and I have not played it since finishing this one. Not sure if I can repeat, but I am sure that these are capable of punching above their weight/cost. Hope something here helps, if you have any other ? sing out!

db

[chipotle]

That dark shellac finish is very nice, I love the color! Great job!

[Paul Busman]

Nice job!

[sish]

Very, very pretty!!!! I am working on my second one of these. I am very pleased with the tone of my first one.

I followed the newer Siminoff book for carving and assembly,
replaced the headstock veneer with a piece of .080" fiddleback maple,
carved the top and back to the contours provided in the Siminoff book,
replaced the supplied tone bars with some better pieces of Sitka spruce,
located tone bars IAW Siminoff and tap tuned/carved/scalloped/shaped to his target notes,
tried to tune the back and f holes to Siminoff specs but could not get them to come in
replaced the bridge with one from StewMac
made a bone nut
levelled and crowned the frets
used J 74 strings
finished using Siminoff directions with analine dye and tru oil top coat.

I have another pretty good mandolin (a StewMac kit built by someone else) and I have not played it since finishing this one. Not sure if I can repeat, but I am sure that these are capable of punching above their weight/cost. Hope something here helps, if you have any other ? sing out!

db

Wow you put me to shame! I have his book but can't understand the tap tuning. What software? How? I really think I need a step by step, because I couldn't figure out how to do it.

Any details you can share?

Thanks!

Matt

[David Houchens]

Looking good Matt. Glad the bushings fit.

[Skip Kelley]

Matt, nice job! Your finish looks great!

[sish]

Thanks all, the finish is shellac (black shellac). It can be hard to work with if you aren't used to shellac, but I love the way it brings out the tone and feeling in the wood.

[misterb]

"Wow you put me to shame!" Certainly not my intention! Just wanted to emphasize that mine is anything but "hollow" and provided some of my construction steps for comparison and consideration for your next.

"I have his book but can't understand the tap tuning." Well I can't say I understand it either. I think I understand some things about it and the premise seems logical, but in the end some things do not add up. I followed the instruction as near as I could, shaving the tone bars to achieve the target notes. I found that any tuner I had, would not read the notes with any accuracy or consistency, so borrowed a friends computer which has the Peterson strobosoft, deluxe version on it. This software has a tap tuning mode. I set the repeats at 4 and tapped the bars with a homemade mallet which I roughly patterned after the piano hammer he shows in the book. The software averages the 4 taps and then shows the note. I found it was easy to get a flakey note, so was going by what it came up with 3 out of 5 times. I did finally achieve the target notes but realize that finish sanding, adding the back, bridge, tailpiece, finish etc has probably changed that considerably. That's what I mean by it all not adding up in the end. I tried to tune the back and the f holes according to Siminoff instructions but could not seem to get it right. Before attaching the tone bars I finish carved the top and back plates to the specs in Siminoff book. Surprisingly, most places were very close, but I had to reduce the "minimum area" around the outside edge considerably, to get to his spec. So while I do not understand exactly how or why it works I am satisfied that it does work at least to some extent. My current theory is that the exact note tuning is "black art" stuff and that having a consistent and fairly thin minimal area and tone bars shaved to achieve a "lively tone" will make the most difference to the final tone of the mandolin. I attribute the satisfactory tone of my mandolin to these 2 factors.

Hope this helps

db

[sish]

Immensely helpful. You sound like me, I read and re-read that section. I honestly was hoping to see something like "You can use Audacity for Windows to do this, here's where you download the software..press here..etc" Instead there was very little to "grab" onto, so I did the best I could.

The hollow sound was my fault, the bridge wasn't sitting tight, so I bought a new stewie mac ebony bridge and a fitting jig, after a brisk 15 minutes of shaping I am now the proud owner of a nice ebony bridge that fits cleanly. I'm hopeful tomorrow I can get the time to put it on.

I also added a K&K pickup to it (internal). That was a challenge, but it's done now as well. We'll see how it all comes out tomorrow. Thanks again for sharing!

Matt

[Ron Cox]

So, may I summarize or paraphrase? Forgive me if I get it wrong here (better here than in the workshop).

I'm guessing that the IV kits have plenty of thickness to them, and for better tone quality, one should endeavour to get it as close to described thicknesses as possible? One of his methods involved a drill press and sanding disc that I found intriguing. That seems to make the most effect on overall sound quality (bridge, nut, strings setup notwithstanding).

I too intend to start and IV kit soon and I am doing as much research as possible. I'm actually even considering getting some 1x6 pine and trying out the carving on them prior to touching the kit. If I don't hose them significantly, I can use the pine top to practice the next step, then the next step as I go along with my kit. I have lots of pine and oak laying around (furniture fixes and rebuilds over the year) so the cost is minimal. Just nothing worth building a Mando out of.