Questioning fret level diagnosis

[Jesse Harmon]

So I finally decided the Peterson Level 2 OM has just too long a scale for these old hands and decided to trade it in on a Collings Mandola. I have had it for a little less than three years and didn't play it a lot due to the scale problem. When I did play it I never noticed any kind of problem but I was told that it needed a 120.00 fret leveling job probably due to the humidity. We have a humidity controlled house plus I am very careful about using humidifiers. I have to admit I am some doubtful about this judgement but decided to take the hit (which was already significant) and move on since the Collings was ever so gently calling from the other room. I have always trusted and respected these people but I am now a little doubtful. What do you think, could a lightly used and treated well instrument three years old, that plays well up the neck need this? Thank's for your thoughts.

[Folkmusician.com]

Hi Jesse,

It would not be strange at all for a 3 year old instrument to change enough to need the frets leveled. Almost all low to mid range mandolins need a fret leveling when new and even some of the higher end instruments can use work when new. Not so much the case with Collings though.

The luthier should have pointed out the specific reason for the leaving.... like taking a fret rocker and showing you the uneven frets. Now that the work has been done, we will never know for sure.

[Jesse Harmon]

Thanks Robert, I will hope the Collings lives up to it's reputation and continue to believe that the judgement was correct. They have been good to me in the past. The Peterson was in new condition and played no different on the day that I sold than the day that I bought it. It is just such a hit to trade this way instead of selling it myself but you have to pay for that kind of service I understand.

[violinvic]

Being in Michigan, try Elderly Inst. in Lansing.

[John Arnold]

If it plays well without buzzing, I see no need for fret work.

[Michael Lewis]

I'm in agreement with John Arnold and Robert Fear. You should have been shown the uneven frets, if there were any. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Michael Lewis]

I'm in agreement with John Arnold and Robert Fear. You should have been shown the uneven frets, if there were any. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Jesse Harmon]

Thanks Michael and John, that is the way I feel about it. If it is true as Robert says that even mid level instruments come in needing fret leveling work, then the incoming new instruments should get the same close appraisal that they give to incoming trades. This instrument was in two places in it's life, the store and my home. It played fine up the neck to include minimal use of a capo. I guess I may have bought the instrument new with fret level problems. If I had to bet I would bet the cursory look and playing test was all it got new on it's arrival at the store. I took a heavy hit on the appraisal without the fret leveling charge so it just sticks in the mouth with a little taste of something I can't quite distinguish. No one held a gun to my head though and in this case I figured it was worth it for the avoidance of selling the instrument myself. Hopefully I will be a little wiser but I have to admit I bought the 4000 dollar Collings without doing that fret rocker test so now it will be on my dime if there is a problem. Unfortunately at my age it's beginning to look like Wisdom is ever further off in the horizon. And by the way I love this place and the people there so it is just an eye opener that blind trust is not ever really an option and will give due consideration in the future.

[Steve Sorensen]

Sounds like a typical haggling technique that you would see with any "Used Car" type salesman to lower the price on your trade: "Well, we can take it in trade, but it will need a lot of work for us to re-sell . . ."

As with any business deal, you've got to decide, based on your trust of the person and organization, whether the deal they are offering is legitimate and fair or not. If you still feel, now, that you were given a bad deal, go back and see if they will remedy the situation.

Steve

[Jesse Harmon]

Thanks Steve, I will ponder that a bit. Your instruments have long been on the top of the list if I can ever get downsized like I actually should do. My goal is someday only one high quality guitar and mandolin and mandola.

[multidon]

I don't know if you are talking about Elderly or not. You are in Michigan so maybe? Anyways I have dealt with them for many years and in one deal I made I had this experience. I wanted to trade in a viola I had for another instrument. I e-mailed them and told them what I had. They then told me what they projected the trade in value would be but they would have to examine it in hand to give a final price. Now, from my point of view it was mint. Not a scratch and played fine. So I ship it to them on my dime and once they have it in hand they say it needs the fingerboard planed, new bridge, yadda, yadda. And of course the price of the repairs are then deducted from the trade in. Now, Elderly has a fine repair shop. But they charge top dollar. So between the work and the shipping the trade in literally turned into half the amount I was counting on. Of course if I was not satisfied with the offer they would be glad to ship it back to me...on my dime again, naturally. Maybe it really did need all that work. I am not saying they were less than truthful. It's just that it seemed fine to me. Maybe it's kind of like driving a car that needs new brakes. The brakes wear out little by little and you don't really notice it, but then at inspection the mechanic says "Wow you really need new brakes!" and wonders why you didn't feel it. So I took the hit. Sometime you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.

[Jstring]

Don, I had the exact same thought when I read the initial post... I wonder if he went to Elderly? Like you, I've had the same experience; any instrument I've tried to trade/consign there needed at least $100 worth of work, in their opinion. Which surprised me, since the instruments were close to perfect from a visual/playability standpoint.
Well, like you, it doesn't really bother me... Elderly has an awesome selection, fantastic salespeople, the repair work is high quality, and I'm sure it's easier for them to sell instruments that have no issues whatsoever. Better than NOT having a place like Elderly, I'm sure we'd all agree...

[multidon]

I'm sure it's easier for them to sell instruments that have no issues whatsoever.

Except that's not true. Haven't you noticed how many used instruments they sell that are in "excellent condition EXCEPT need fret work, set up, new strings, has 3 open cracks, needs neck reset, etc., etc., sold AS-IS"? I often wondered why they didn't just give me less for the instrument (the end result being pretty much the same from my viewpoint I suppose) then sell it as is? They sell an awful lot of instruments that way for DIY and in fact I bought 2 instruments from them on that basis. Maybe it's easier for them to sell an instrument with no issues but they also sell a large number of as-is. Seems like their repair shop is so busy you would think they would be using the as is designation as much as possible to lighten their load.

[Jstring]

OK, that's a good point...many of their instruments are sold "AS IS" with a laundry list of needed repairs... I wonder why they insisted on touching up every aspect of our instruments?

[multidon]

I wonder why they insisted on touching up every aspect of our instruments?

It's a mystery to me!

[Jesse Harmon]

Well OK it was Elderly. I was hoping to just keep it on the principles involved and see if any one else experienced this devaluing process in general but being from Michigan gives it away anyway. And those questions that you brought up are something to keep in mind while dealing on used instruments. It's got to be a pretty tough business taking instruments in for trade or resale and I am sure that if you are not careful you could lose the farm pretty quickly so I am willing to cut them a little slack. I guess in the end only Elderly can know how much their profit margin is in trades and whether they are completely fair with the their process. Someone has to pay for heating that big building for me to leave my coat in the car and try out instruments. No one was twisting my arm and I am really not wallowing in resentment. In the future I have made some adjustments in my thinking as to my laziness about not wanting to put instruments up for sale myself and the possibility of acquiring a tool to check those frets. Still love the place and the people, still recommend them to people although there will be some refinements and qualifications in the future. Thanks for your input.

[mirwa]

It s not uncommon for any instrument to need a fret level, we work for manufacturers and many times new instruments need them straight out of the box.

However if the instrument played well in every position and the action was not high, then it is unusual for a fret level to be carried out.

Steve

[Jesse Harmon]

Steve, Thanks for this, that get's to the point of my concern. In this case it had been very well cared for and kept in a case other than minimal playing. It played no different than the day I purchased it and I doubt very much that any individual would have bothered to check the level of the frets with a rocker after playing it. I also doubt anyone would have leveled the frets until some kind of playing problem developed. ------- So my own feeling is-- IF-- it is the case that shops are giving that kind of test to instruments coming in for trade, and holding them to a standard that is not carried through on ALL their instruments, then in my opinion it is unethical. It is also wise to remember that there is a temptation to accept devaluations on your trade in after you have made the decision to spring for the new instrument and made the drive. So I say again that I am not wringing my hands and biting my lip over this even though it sounds like it. I have a new Collings Mandola sitting in the house so it seems as if the sun is shining everywhere, and I will hopefully do a little waking up as to trading these instruments that I have acquired since I have been better at acquisition than distribution. As to the obligatory devaluation for fret leveling and trumped up repairs, --IF-- that is what is happening in these shops, then the only way to make it ethical is to make that information public and available to the person before the shipping or driving occurs, --and-- hold their new instruments to the same fret level rocker test standard. I don't think mine would have passed at the time of purchase but I will never know. Just my own opinion, these are good people. I just need to wake up, pay more attention, and sell my own instruments.

[Timbofood]

There is one small point which has not been addressed, one persons set up may not be another's perfect one. I agree that the fret level situation should have been made clear at the initial take in stage, that is less than what I would have expected from Elderly. I am kind of surprised that the "required repairs" tapped so much in trade value but, trading something has always cost me far more than I expect. Except when it's a push your junker in for a thousand dollars at the car swindler and sometimes even then....
As for violin set up, there's another kettle of fish.

[Andy Miller]

There is one small point which has not been addressed, one persons set up may not be another's perfect one.

That's a good point. More to the point, someone buying in an instrument might have an actual setup specification, where a seller might only know it suits them fine the way it currently is. For example. . . .my Martin guitar currently plays just fine where it is; the action is about 20% higher than I consider standard for customers. If I were to lower the action down to a more typical height, it might start to display some problems due to the fret wear that is there.

As for the instrument in question having no visible fret wear and being well-cared-for, all I can say is that I'm sure that's true. . . but the frets are either level or they aren't. If they aren't, a future/potential buyer might insist on them being made perfect, even if they aren't creating any major problems. I've never even been to Elderly, but I've done thousands of in-store setups on new and used instruments, for customers with all kinds of preferences, personalities, and perhaps psychoses. . . . Please don't feel like someone was trying to use a made-up problem to gain a few bucks - they probably just saw something they saw as a potential risk and wanted to reduce it, that's good business.

[Jake Wildwood]

I'm surprised they didn't just credit you the whole original sale on the instrument you bought from them previously to get you hooked on the other, more expensive gear... I usually do that with "trade ups" or "trade overs" over here. I just eat the small amount of time I waste setting the instrument up again. I figure the good karma is better than the few extra clams in the back pocket.

That said, I deal primarily in old stuff that retains at least intrinsic value... the new stuff devalues the moment you buy it, even if it's brand spankin' new, so I can understand why they'd want to take your instrument back in trade at a lower value.

[Jesse Harmon]

Well I hope people who do decide to read this thread will read my posts. I thought I was quite clear about accepting the difficulties in trading in used instruments for any of the shops involved. I wouldn't want to do it and I never meant in the beginning to identify the shop involved and have accepted the possibility that they are right in the judgement of uneven frets. We were talking about a fret leveling rocker test. To reiterate, the instrument was bought new, off the floor there, driven about 50 miles and kept in a case in my house for 2 months short of 3 years. Played probably about as much as an OM player would play in a week of practice. I had hoped to keep the discussion on the principle of possible over the board devaluation of instruments. We are not talking about, set-ups, preferences, personalities or psychoses. (although personalities, preferences, and psychoses diagnosis you make also apply to people who work at music stores as well as the customers) I meant to talk about truthfully using the same standards of judgement you apply to accepting used instruments as the standards you use when selling the new and used. I meant to bring up the possible devaluation over and above a hefty devaluation that would I think that most people would more than fair to the buyer. I fully realize that the process is difficult for everyone involved, it makes it a lot easier though if you devalue the accepted age percentage and then do a standard devaluation for a fret level that probably a lot of new instruments wouldn't pass either. I think I was quite clear that it was my own wake up call that was needed. So I will continue having faith but keep my eyes a open a little wider when I buy, along with the purchase of a fret rocker.

[CedarSlayer]

In general a music store can obtain a brand new instrument for half the MRSP (manufacturers recommended sales price.) If they buy a lot of them and push a particular instrument or participate in a sales push, they may get it cheaper. A used instrument does not have a company that backs it up in case the next customer has an issue with it. This means that an instrument, worth $2000 if a buyer is found, is not worth $1000 to the music store.

It may not be worth $500 to the music store. The reason for this low price is that a few customers hid serious flaws and traded in an instrument that was later sold and then found to have major issues by the customer. As a result, they pay you less to average out the cost of such issues.

So they want trade, but an old instrument that they will sell for $2000 is probably worth, at most, a quarter of that, to them. By worth, I mean, they need to buy and sell at this ratio to maintain their profit margin. When they give a customer $500 for an instrument and the customer comes back in the next week and sees the price tag is $2000, the customer may just go into a screaming fit. It is much easier to for them to say they will need to put in a bunch of repairs when in fact they may just clean it, minimize a ding or two, polish it and put new strings on it.

If however they pay $500 for an instrument and sell it for $2000, and it comes back in a week with a major and obviously repaired flaw, they are out the sale, out their time, a set of strings and out the $500. Additionally they have to manage this situation. So the decent customers trading in good instruments must be paid less to make up for bad things that happened. If not, that music store may not be there for you to buy strings from when you need them.

Remember that your instrument is only worth $2000 if you are unwilling to part with it for less or someone is offering you $2000 for it.

Bob

[Jesse Harmon]

Thanks Jake, I think I would like doing business with you and I will stop in on my next trip to Vermont. I have bought a number of instruments from them over the years to include a Collings guitar, Paul Reed Smith guitar, and Alverez Yauri classical years ago, two Irish whistles, a Suzuki harmonica, etc. If you want to personal message your location I would appreciate it. I used to be in Vermont every year for a number of years and have a jazz electric guitar made by Roger Borys who used to be in Shelbourne. And Bob thanks for the specifics, I think I pretty well have made the point that they have to heat the building in order for me to come in and try out instruments which, by the way, I observed a bluegrasser going down the line picking mandolins in a way that made me want to go back and check for pick scratches after. I did not mean to trash a shop although I can see how it could look that way. I love this place now and always have along with the people that work there. I only want to understand this business a little better so I can make more informed decisions in the future. So they didn't have too bad a day with me since I bought a 4000 dollar Collings and left an, at least cosmetically perfect trade in. No problem, I wouldn't have been able to try the Mandola without them along with countless instruments over the years. I'm sure life will go on as usual.

[CedarSlayer]

I love this place now and always have along with the people that work there. I only want to understand this business a little better so I can make more informed decisions in the future. So they didn't have too bad a day with me since I bought a 4000 dollar Collings and left an, at least cosmetically perfect trade in. No problem, I wouldn't have been able to try the Mandola without them along with countless instruments over the years. I'm sure life will go on as usual.

This is a great attitude, I wish more people had it. I don't like white lies, but if you are informed and aware that you are dealing with mule traders, trading can be a lot of fun!

Bob