In Praise of the 16" Archtop

[jromano23]

After a series of guitar and mando swaps and sales, I recently found myself guitar-less for the first time in about 15 years. With a little extra cash in hand from the transactions, I picked up a '34/'35 Gibson L7 from Retrofret which features a carved 16' spruce top with maple back and sides and Nick Lucas style fretboard and headstock. It's a clean players grade instrument with a small repaired back crack and a few minor touchups but overall very solid and nice with a recent re-fret. Having lusted after Collings AT-16 and Loar era L5s, I was surprised to find this L7 at a fraction of the price. The tone and playability are unbeatable. As a former flat top only, casual player, I always found 17" x braced models a little too jazzy for my taste. The 16" is a different beast all together producing one of the most satisfying, round and direct tones I've heard on a guitar. It is at home in everything from Carter Family and old time music, to blues and new acoustic music. Having struggled to find something like this, I'm surprised there aren't more luthiers out there offering a standard 16" archtop acoustic like the Collings At-16. I saw a Mowry cutaway at Carmel Music that looked pretty amazing but rarely see anything similar... As Gibson only made the L7 in this size for a few years, I don't think there are many out there... A terrific bang for the buck if you can find one. Any one else have a similar positive experience with the 16" archtop? Anyone else making them in the $3-7K range?

[dcoventry]

After a series of guitar and mando swaps and sales, I recently found myself guitar-less for the first time in about 15 years. With a little extra cash in hand from the transactions, I picked up a '34/'35 Gibson L7 from Retrofret which features a carved 16' spruce top with maple back and sides and Nick Lucas style fretboard and headstock. It's a clean players grade instrument with a small repaired back crack and a few minor touchups but overall very solid and nice with a recent re-fret. Having lusted after Collings AT-16 and Loar era L5s, I was surprised to find this L7 at a fraction of the price. The tone and playability are unbeatable. As a former flat top only, casual player, I always found 17" x braced models a little too jazzy for my taste. The 16" is a different beast all together producing one of the most satisfying, round and direct tones I've heard on a guitar. It is at home in everything from Carter Family and old time music, to blues and new acoustic music. Having struggled to find something like this, I'm surprised there aren't more luthiers out there offering a standard 16" archtop acoustic like the Collings At-16. I saw a Mowry cutaway at Carmel Music that looked pretty amazing but rarely see anything similar... As Gibson only made the L7 in this size for a few years, I don't think there are many out there... A terrific bang for the buck if you can find one. Any one else have a similar positive experience with the 16" archtop? Anyone else making them in the $3-7K range?

Archtop everything. My flat top playing guitar friends went <altered text expletive deleted by Moderator> when I got this one.

[Verne Andru]

I believe The Loar series of solid-carved archtops are 16" and very reasonably priced. I have a 300 and love the tone and playability.

[citeog]

David Rawlings (of Gillian Welch & David Rawlings fame) plays an old Epiphone archtop model. I believe it's their Casino model. He gets a very Carter family-ish sound out of that box.

Paul

[Bernie Daniel]

I believe The Loar series of solid-carved archtops are 16" and very reasonably priced. I have a 300 and love the tone and playability.

The S-300 is 18" correct? Do you find that any harder to hold and pick than the 16" models like the L-5?

[Bernie Daniel]

I have a 1949 L-50 (16", maple & spruce) and it is one of the best sounding guitars I have ever had.

[Jim]

Dave Rawlings plays a 1935 Epiphone Olympic archtop which has a real strong mid range. A friend just purchased a "The Loar" which I think is a 300, It's a Really sweet little guitar.

[mandobouy]

howdy all,
i don't post often but this one gets to my core. i grew up with 16" archies, and still have a number of them, as well as the 17" ones. bernie and i have corresponded recently on this a bit. i currently have i think maybe 6-7 16" archies from 1935-1940 period. some are ugly but damn good sounding.

imho, the best (most affordable and great sounding) 16" archies are gibson L-50's from 1935 to 1937. the '35s and the early '36s had flat backs, transitioned to carved backs in '36. sometime around 1938 (not sure exactly when but that's my best assessment), the model lost the elevated fingerboard extension. most '38-'43 ones had a carved 2pc back (some 1 pc backs but are laminated) but w/o the elevated FB extension. so the earlier 16" L-50's were like plainer versions of the L-4.

the arched back ones have a somewhat bigger voice, as one would expect, but the flat backed ones are terrific. with the narrower waist than a dread, i find archies to be much more ergonomically comfortable. a very few of the '35-'36 L-50's have maple necks, vs the std mahogany, and these are killer guitars. i have a maple necked L-50 and an maple necked L-4, both unusual models but just awesome guitars. archies are diff from dreads, just as good as dreads but with a diff voice. so its not fair to compare a dreads sound to an archie on the 1st position open E chord and say a dread is better, unless you only play 1st position stuff. to me, archies have more "jump" in the voice than a dread, and to me they have "better" chord and note character up the neck than most dreads. archies can be very warm too. exceptions are there of course. many of the later lower models have laminated backs, and some have lam tops too (the mahogany top L-48's for example; but some a few late 40's and early 50's L-48's have a spruce top). i have been finally wandering into flattops in the last few years to give myself some tonal options for some tunes but the archies are it for me.

the op's L-7 is one variant. went to the 17" body in '35 i believe. some are x-braced, others have the tone bars inside. L-7 nut width varied too in the mid-later 30's so watch that if you are interested in getting one. gibson also had some round hole archies in the 30's. to me, these are bigger on the bottom than an F hole, kinda towards the dread sound, but i don't think they have the same mid-upper end as the F-hole models.

i play my archies on everything. don't think they are only good for swing/jazz. they are more balanced than a dread, people get bamboozled by banging on an open E chord on a dread. archies have a fine character that stands out in a crowd of flattops. just accept they are different, not lacking. do yourself a favor and explore the world of archtops, and hear a fine one. afterall, most of our mando's are archtops!
cheers, and off my soapbox now.
bruce

[Petrus]

My Harmony archtop is one of my faves. Not exactly "$3-7K" range (more like 300 range, lol) but it does the trick. I'm thinking of putting on a period finger rest (in off-white) and maybe a pickup.



These are more or less the only style of guitar I like ... maybe it's the family resemblance to mandos and violins that does it for me. The only other type of guitar I really like are the small-bodied parlor style that used to be popular in the 19th cent., with the Stauffer-style scrolled head. Those are hard to find and expensive these days.

[Bernie Daniel]

I should have added in my post that the Gibson mandocello that I now have was originally a 1942 solid maple and spruce 16" L-50. That box made a really powerful mandocello much like the early K-5's were derived from L-5 boxes.

I agree with Petrus my arch top guitar feels and sounds best to me now, that after years of owing lot of different Gibson dreadnought flat tops (Hummingbird, J-45, J-50, J-55, J-60 etc.) and a Martin D-28. But it is a personal thing -- the sound of good flat top guitar is pretty awesome too.

Thanks to Burce (mandobouy) for the short lesson in the Gibson arch top build history. Lots of useful information there I copied and saved that post!

[Bernie Daniel]

Archtop everything. My flat top playing guitar friends went apesh@t when I got this one.

Your second arch top (blonde face) looks like an Eastman? - but what is that first one you showed -- with the sunburst and the cool inlay. Looks vintage for sure!

[jromano23]

Thanks for the great comments. This particular L7 is a nice fit for me as it has a 1 3/4 nut width. I think the feel comparison with mandos is a good one as the small f holes on this early model provide a bounce and mid range similar to mandolin. As for the price range, I sort of threw it out there as an estimate of what a custom mandolin builder might charge to do a 16" Loar era L5 copy (I see Paul Duff is working on one for Carter's Vintage that will probably be more expensive based on his K5 price). My Gibson came in under that price range which is why I feel it was a good buy. I love flattops too but there is something in the 16" design that really gets me. I think the dot inlay Loar-early 30s L5 might be my favorite guitar of all time (never played one though). That said, I'd take a '38 herringbone any day too (also, never played one)...

[Mike Steadfast-Ward]

Thanks Ted E sterling job. There are plenty of good adjectives in the English-American language, it's a rather rich language in this sense. Just a little thought needed to keep standards up. Thanks again fellow you are doing an important job and you are appreciated lots here.

[Verne Andru]

The S-300 is 18" correct? Do you find that any harder to hold and pick than the 16" models like the L-5?

The Loar series is based on the Gibson L-5 from the 1920's IIRC. My LH-300-VS is 16" - it's basically a poor-man's L5.

[robert.najlis]

I have a 1930's Washburn Archtop guitar (16") . Seeing as I don't really play guitar, I have been pondering selling it or trading it for a while now, but I have not been able to bring myself to do it yet. It is a great guitar with a special sound.

[GreenMTBoy]

Here is my 53 L7C,A great guitar ,The original poor man's L5

[johnparrott]

Nice to hear some accolades for the f-hole mandolin's big brother. The acoustic archtop guitar's been a mainstay in many different kinds of music, but for reasons unknown, it's not seen so often onstage these days. I've found that once the audience's ears adjust, people like archtops just fine.

There are many good instruments available in the price range you mention. Epi Triumphs seem to be abundant, as do the Gibson L-7s and even some L-5s fit in that that price category. But these instruments vary so much in sound and condition that one would be wise to play before buying. Clinkers, even good-looking clinkers are everywhere in all price ranges. I can't think of one old archtop model or brand I could give a blanket recommendation for; even those iconic Strombergs and D'Angelicos are spotty when it comes to sound. And if you're used to flat-tops, it takes a different touch to get good sound out of an archtop.

The two nicest-sounding new archtops I've played were a Gibson copy of a 171/2 "Stromberg made for Doug Green, and a 16" blonde Gilchrist owned by a lucky guy in California. I hear good things about "The Loar" but I have yet to pick one up.

Coincidentally, Marty Grosz, one of the titans of the archtop and a master performer, had his 84th birthday yesterday. He is sounding better than ever.

[Masterbilt]

This particular L7 is a nice fit for me as it has a 1 3/4 nut width. I think the feel comparison with mandos is a good one as the small f holes on this early model provide a bounce and mid range similar to mandolin.

Dave Rawlings and his Epiphone Olympic have been mentioned - however we are not talking 16" archtop there. Dave's Olympic is only 13.5 inches wide! Very different guitar than a 16" - with their strong response in the mids and highs even more related to a mando than most bigger archtops. I love these small Epi firecrackers.



Felix

[jromano23]

I love the Epiphone Olympics and am particularly fond of the unbound versions like yours in the middle. I've seen them occasionally go up for sale ranging from $1200 up to $3500 but they are becoming harder to find as David Rawlings has shown off their virtues so well. I find my L7 to be be similar but with a rounder low end due to the larger size. That said, I might argue that mine has more of the punch that the Olympics have compared to the later 17" x braced L7 models.

[robert.najlis]

here is a picture of my Washburn 1930's 16" Archtop that I had mentioned before

[Petrus]

Hmm, it never occurred to me to convert my Harmony into a mandocello. Drilling the holes in the headstock wouldn't be hard but for the existing 6 holes being in the way; no way to just add extra holes, you'd have to fill in the existing ones. A new bridge and tailpiece would be easy to fit. The steel-reinforced neck should hold the extra tension with no problem.

[Phil Goodson]

Here's a quick shot of my '33 Epiphone Blackstone Masterbilt. ~14 inch width. Arched top & back. Good sound and feel.

[Jim Garber]

My two acoustic archtop guitars are both 16 inch ones. I am fortunate to own a wonderful 1928 L-5 and a 1934 Epiphone Spartan (roundhole). I believe that the Spartan only had a round soundhole for that one year and they changed it to f-holes after that.

The Spartan is a great rhythm guitar, suitable for swing or old time.

[Dan Margolis]

Here's my '47 Blackstone. The top used to be nice until my stepson's buddies shredded on it in the 1980's. It has a nice clear voice and a comfortable neck.

[jromano23]

Jim,

Any pics of the '28 L5 Maybelle Special?

Thanks,

Joey