Looking for a 'big' mandolin

[MandoGael]

Well, I ventured out to play in my first ever beginner's Irish session last week and thoroughly enjoyed the experience, though there's a great deal of learning ahead of me yet.

The biggest problem on the night was that I couldn't hear myself play. There were about twenty players in a room with a big echo and it was just impossible to hear my little Moon mandolin. I normally play fairly softly, which doesn't help either.

I know others have experienced this before.

I'm not about to give up on the mandolin but it would be nice to get something with a bigger sound and the same fingering. The banjo doesn't appeal to me, aurally or visually (sorry banjo players!). Somebody suggested a bouzouki (with capo) or a tenor guitar, but would they be too 'low'?

I know some makers such as Fylde produce 'big' mandolins with a deeper sound. Maybe I could even get a custom-made larger instrument, something in between a mandolin and an octave mandolin/mandola.

Any suggestions?

[John Flynn]

The absolute bomb for this is the National Resophonic Model 1. A friend of mine played one in a session I used to go to and it was perfect. You could also consider a mando-banjo. That would be cheaper than the M1 and with a resonator, just as loud on the attack, but you wouldn't get the sustain. I would not see the bouzouki or the tenor helping much. The bouzouki is mostly for rhythm at sessions and I have never seen a tenor guitar at a session, but it would not put out what you need. A tenor banjo might be the ticket. I doubt any wooden mandolin will help you much, though.

[Dave Hicks]

Those Nationals are nice and loud and they sound great.

D.H.

[Ron McMillan]

The Moon should be perfectly adequate. If you can't hear yourself, you're not digging in hard enough. If no-one else can hear you, you're not digging in hard enough. If nobody is toning down their volume to allow other players a chance to ring out, maybe you need to find another group

[John Flynn]

The Moon should be perfectly adequate. If you can't hear yourself, you're not digging in hard enough. If no-one else can hear you, you're not digging in hard enough. If nobody is toning down their volume to allow other players a chance to ring out, maybe you need to find another group

Wow, Ron, you're rough! Not every area has a wide assortment of groups you can join and I have been at sessions with a fairly loud mandolin where I could have been "digging" my strings with a shovel and it would not have made any difference! You get a set of pipes, multiple fiddles and some resonator tenor banjos going and it's gonna be loud even if people try to tone it down. And I have never heard "toning it down" to be an ethic in Irish sessions. I have seen it in bluegrass jams when people are taking breaks, but the sessions I've been to seem to be full-out, all the time.

[fernmando]

Irish music is the heavy metal of acoustic music. One thing to consider is that if your mandolin is voiced correctly, it's throwing sound OUT rather than UP. I misjudged many a mandolin while testing them out in bluegrass festival cow pastures, loud to my ear but then having the bandmates say that it got lost in the mix. Gibson F5s and such still don't sound the best to me when playing alone, but they do cut. I think I'd go reso before I went "larger".

Roscoe Morgan

[roysboy]

Nature of the beast.....mandolins are comparatively quiet . You'll get used to it .

[Ambrianbrosia]

I'm a trad mandolin player so I know where you're coming from, my mandolin is quite loud I had it handmade, but I find the way you attack with your pick is very important to volume, the mandolin should be able to cut through on the higher end easily enough, and if you can't hear yourself, I'm sure other people can

[DataNick]

Best to you in your challenge to add volume!

I have NFI, but a BlueChip pick can help significantly; maybe you can try one from a friend before buying.

Good Luck to you and keep on making music on your mando!

[JeffD]

I have not played a Moon, but I have heard good things. I have no reason to believe it is a naturally soft low volume instrument. I assume it is properly set up and your strings are not too light.

A normal mandolin in a normal trad session can be heard. I know that if I screw it up I get looks, so someone can hear me.

Leaving the other two options - you are not pushing it hard enough, which takes practice and confidence. Or, too many other folks are playing to loud and not listening. This happens sometimes, but I would not call it characteristic of the jams I have attended.

A mandolin can't really dominate a jam, like a banjo can or like a resonator mandolin can, but it can be heard.

The other thing to consider is that you are being heard, but you can't hear yourself. I find that more often with f hole type mandolins, because they are so focused and project so well. People in front can hear me, but not enough of the sound gets back to me. You can test this out by playing while facing into the corner of a room. See how much louder you sound then.

[Steve Sorensen]

The quest for more power and focus is part of what Gibson was going for when they pumped up the F5 style under the supervision of Lloyd Loar in the 1920s.

That goal of having a mandolin that can be played hard and go into "overdrive" rather than break up and go fuzzy/muddy is central to what Bill Monroe found in those mandolins and one of the reasons Gibson Loar-era construction is central to most of the carved-top and back / F-hole / parallel tonebar mandolins being built today.

The combination of complexity and balanced response under wide-ranging types of play is what has made these instruments the grail for players and builders. It is certainly no accident that players like Chris Thile and Mike Marshall, who range freely across the music spectrum, end up with Gibson Loar-era or Loar-inspired instruments.

So the most important step will be getting the right tool for the job -- that is, a mandolin which has been built to keep up with you when the cups are down and the picks are flying!

Steve

[John Flynn]

A normal mandolin in a normal trad session can be heard. I know that if I screw it up I get looks, so someone can hear me.

Well, of course, they always hear the mistakes!!! I am only half joking. The real test is when you can be heard playing it right!

Also, to Steve's remarks: I get your point, but if it were really about power, all these guys would be playing Nationals. A National will lay waste to a Loar volume-wise, and in a really loud situation, tone gets masked anyway. In addition, Thile and Marshall can always control their "sonic situation." They have good sound people and sound systems, including monitors, etc. I like a quote I heard from Sam Bush that went something like, "If it weren't for PA systems, the mandolin would be dead."

[allenhopkins]

If you can't afford the four-figure price of the National, and you want something loud, brash and annoying (just semi-kidding), you could consider one of the Asian-made, metal-body resonator mandolins like the Recording King.

They're about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of even a used RM-1. Probably the same difference in overall quality, but even those who aren't keen on their raucous tonal qualities, agree that they're loud.

[Eddie Sheehy]

+1 for a resonator mandolin since you don't like Tenor Banjo.

There's one HERE

[Annette Siegel]

And then you see a Marla Fibish with her vintage Gibson Plain Jane "A" Mandolin (with truss rod) doing just fine in a session. I'm early to the sessions too and yes a resonator mandolin will be louder...but then if everybody gets (or plays) a louder and louder instrument...I wonder how that's going to sound? Technique on a Tenor Banjo is different than a Mandolin too....something to consider.

That is a pretty cute resonator mandolin that Eddie pointed out though ; )

[foldedpath]

If Irish sessions are the Heavy Metal of acoustic music, then Scottish sessions are Death Metal, because they're more likely to include pipers.


These are smaller "indoor" border pipes, smallpipes, reelpipes, but still pretty loud. The session I mostly go to is mixed Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish. There are always two pipers there, with around 8 fiddlers, although usually only 4 or 5 are playing at any one time. Plus guitar, me on mandolin, sometimes a bodhran. It can get loud, but I manage to keep up with an archtop F-hole mandolin.

The way I see it, it isn't necessary for the mandolin to match the volume of the other traditional instruments. Because down that road lies the tenor banjo. But it has to be loud enough to kick off a tune set, or continue a set if you have an idea for something that will fit. If you can't be heard well enough to kick off a set, then either the instrument is too quiet, or your technique needs development, or the group is just too darned big. If you can start a tune set, and everyone can hear you start it, then you're loud enough.

Group size does matter, as well as room acoustics. A small gathering of 5 or 6 players around a table in a small pub is different from a huge gathering in a reflective environment. The problem with huge groups is that people can't sit close enough together to maintain a tight rhythm. You can only sync up with the people close to you, and not the people further away. So instead of a tight group rhythm, you get something like "The Wave" in a big football stadium... the tempo ebbs and flows. Aside from rhythm issues, people playing instruments with variable intonation like fiddles and flutes can't lock up their intonation like they can in a small group.

If the OP can find other beginner-level sessions in the area that are smaller, it might be worth checking out. Or see if a few members of the larger session want to get together for some private house sessions, where the group can be smaller and your mandolin can be heard.

As for resonator mandolins... well, that's one option. Personally, I'm not a fan of the tone, or the idea of a "volume wars" solution that could overpower another mandolin player at the same session. But I know some people like them, so it's something to consider.

[pheffernan]

I normally play fairly softly, which doesn't help either.

I'm all for buying new gear, but my suggestion would be to continue to work on your technique. The volume will come as you progress beyond your first ever beginner's Irish session.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Mandolins are fine in a 'mandolin/guitar jam like one would encounter at the Symposium... but add fiddles, uileann pipes, banjos, bouzkis, concertinas,hammer-dulcimers and the mandolins fade...

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Do you have a tone guard or have you thought about having one made for your Moon? If the mandolin rests against your body, it can cut the volume in half.

[John Flynn]

Do you have a tone guard or have you thought about having one made for your Moon? If the mandolin rests against your body, it can cut the volume in half.

I agree that resting a mandolin against your body can lower volume, just as resting your arm or fingers on the top, or your wrist on the bridge. But cut it in half? I don't think so. I'm experimenting with it right now and it's not even close to half.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Touché. I've exaggerated at least a million times.

[Mandobar]

I don't understand the concept of getting bigger and louder instruments to be heard. If everyone is trying to drown each other out, what fun is that? Part of musicianship is learning to balance the sound within the group, whether it be a structured group or a jam.

[Eddie Sheehy]

If it's old-time, bluegrass, or ITM, it's still driven by fiddlers and it's high-octane stuff... Fiddles are naturally loud, hard to hear a mandolin above them since they have the same tuning, banjos are just LOUD... however a mandolin can hold it's own with a guitar, and at least in a BG jam everyone will back off for a break...

[Tobin]

Fiddles are naturally loud, hard to hear a mandolin above them since they have the same tuning

Fiddles CAN be loud, but they don't HAVE to be loud. Last week in my living room it was just two mandolins and a fiddle, and none of us had any problem hearing ourselves. The fiddler cranked it up a couple of times to full volume (which was quite impressive), but for the most part, he played nice and quiet.

So maybe it's just that a lot of fiddlers out there aren't talented enough (or courteous enough, more like) to back off the volume, and are forcing everyone to try to compete with them.

The same goes for banjo players, for that matter. I've sat in jam circles with banjo players that could drown everybody else out when they wanted to, but they only chose to do it during their breaks. The rest of the time, I could see their fingers moving but my ears weren't being assaulted by them. A decent banjo player can play with reasonable volume.

Aside from bagpipes, pretty much all instruments can be played at less than deafening volume if the player chooses to. I think that most of the ones in question are just choosing not to.

[foldedpath]

Fiddles CAN be loud, but they don't HAVE to be loud. Last week in my living room it was just two mandolins and a fiddle, and none of us had any problem hearing ourselves. The fiddler cranked it up a couple of times to full volume (which was quite impressive), but for the most part, he played nice and quiet.

So maybe it's just that a lot of fiddlers out there aren't talented enough (or courteous enough, more like) to back off the volume, and are forcing everyone to try to compete with them.

I think it's true that in more advanced sessions, fiddlers may be playing at less than full power because they're trying harder to listen to the other players. In a beginner session, a fiddler may be listening mostly to their own playing, while they try to keep up. That can lead to insensitive volume issues.

Regardless, there is still the fact that -- at least in my area -- there are usually more fiddles than any other instrument at a typical Irish/Scottish session. The session leaders tend to be fiddlers, as well. There is strength in numbers, and eight fiddlers playing with discretion still puts up a heck of a racket. Then you add the concertina, the pipes, the flutes and whistles...

A house or "kitchen session" is different, and that can be the ideal situation for playing mandolin. But we don't get to call the shots in established sessions dominated by other instruments. That's just the way it is.