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Thread: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

  1. #1
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    I've had a few questions on this project so I thought I'd just post a bit on it. I am converting a new The Loar LH-350 arch top guitar into a 5 course cittern (or lutio) -- tuned CGDAE.

    The project was inspired by Pete Braccio's early effort detailed in this string in the CBOM section of the forum.

    I bought a new The Loar LH-350 for cheap -- too cheap as it turned out. The seller knew it was "a second" but he did not know why and even after a lot of questions I didn't either.

    He said if it turned out to be a bid deal he'd send me a hard shell case to compensate. Well he was good for his word and I now have a new Guardian HSC for it when I'm done.

    It turned out once I had it in hand that problem was cosmetic. The fluer on the headstock was off center. With three tuners on a side it did not jump out at me --at first. But when I took the guitar tuners off as started measuring for the fie-on-a-side cittern tuners I soon found there was no "middle in the middle" of the inlay.

    A few pics of the starter guitar. The pic of the headstock shows the flaw very clearly -- it looks even worse once you notice it! LOL!

    So I decided to cover the head stock with 0.6mm ebony veneer and then add some new inlay. Which I did. I bought a simple MOP and abalone diamond which I inlaid then made a mask out of the ebony veneer allowing the diamond and the inlay "The Loar" to be exposed.

    I'll post a few images of the process when I have time to get them off the camera but here are a few pics of what it looks like now with the ebony veneer the tuners in place but before I have done any finishing.

    All I have done at this point is to stain the ebony with "ebony black" water based aniline dye. Also a pic of the tuners from the back and the front of the instrument now. I need to do some more scraping around the diamond and the script. I will probably sand a bit more with P2000 paper and then if it looks nice and uniform (no blotches) I will seal the ebony with clear shellac and then fill the depressions (the diamond and the script) with nitrocellulose until if is flush with the veneer.

    The whole top will be sanded flush and then coated with 6 coats of clear nitrocellulose using a little touch up sprayer.

    I have the new bridge and saddle carved and also a new bone nut. I am replacing the trapeze TP with an identical gold plated one that I have modified to accept 10 strings. I'll show some pics of that stuff too soon.

    I expect when I done I'll keep it for a few weeks then sell it in the classifieds and move on I guess....people should probably not let me borrow their arch top guitar ever.

    I need to move the fret marker from fret #9 to fret #10 yet too!!!
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    Last edited by Bernie Daniel; Apr-17-2014 at 9:24pm.
    Bernie
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  3. #2

    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Why sanding the top ? Thick finish ?

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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dobe View Post
    Why sanding the top ? Thick finish ?
    You mean this: "The whole top will be sanded flush and then coated with 6 coats of clear nitrocellulose using a little touch up sprayer."

    Sorry I made a pretty ambiguous statement there. I should have written: "The whole top surface of the headstock will be sanded flush and then coated with 6 coats of clear nitrocellulose using a little touch up sprayer. Sorry about that!

    Update. It is looking good. I let the water-based, ebony-black dye concentrate down on the bench by putting a table spoon in a plastic pan and leaving it uncovered for about 8 hours. Then I painted it on the ebony veneer and let it dry followed by sanding with P800 then P1500 and finally P2000. Then I applied a second application of dye and repeated. When dry again a final quick gentle swipe with a damp cloth makes sure the dye is uniform.

    After allowing another hour to make sure it is dry I wiped on three layers of clear shellac to seal it and the also "locks" the "ebony black" color in.

    Tonight I filled two little "ponds" around the diamond and "The Loar" inlays and when that dries THEN the entire headstock will be sanded flush and then spray coated with nitrocellulose. This approach allows you to save the "The Loar" script and still cover the old tuner holes. When it is done you have to look real close to see that the inlay is really 0.6 mm "below the rest of the headstock plane.

    Sick of working on this headstock though!
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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    Registered User Pete Braccio's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Just wait until you start working on the nut.

    Looking good!
    Pete Braccio

    "The Rules: Play nice and don't run with scissors"
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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Braccio View Post
    Just wait until you start working on the nut. Looking good!
    Actually (in theory) the nut on a 5 course will be easier than for a regular mandocello --4 course -- because the symmetry!

    Between the three 4 course mandocello I probably made 10 nuts total before I had a pattern that I was happy with.

    On this one I'll do the C1 and E2 to get the edges right and then it is a matter of dividing up the distances -- e.g., the exact center of the distance between C1 and E2 should be between the two D strings etc. Of course I will be taking a good look at the nut you came up with as well!

    I am concerned about compensation on the saddle though since the E strings are plain wire?
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Actually (in theory) the nut on a 5 course will be easier than for a regular mandocello --4 course -- because the symmetry!

    Between the three 4 course mandocello I probably made 10 nuts total before I had a pattern that I was happy with.

    On this one I'll do the C1 and E2 to get the edges right and then it is a matter of dividing up the distances -- e.g., the exact center of the distance between C1 and E2 should be between the two D strings etc. Of course I will be taking a good look at the nut you came up with as well!

    I am concerned about compensation on the saddle though since the E strings are plain wire?
    The nut spacing shouldn't be symmetrical. The centre to centre intra-course spacing will vary from around 2mm between the top e strings to around 3.5mm between the bottom C strings and you might find it more comfortable if the distance between the courses, again centre to centre, increases by around 1mm or so to allow for the different thicknesses of the strings. While the gap between the courses will stay more or less constant, the centre to centre measurement will vary. The D course will end up noticeably off-centre but it will work better.

    For saddle compensation think of a mandolin saddle and add the C strings around 5mm or more behind the e strings

    Cheers

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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    I have carved a rosewood saddle and may add a bone cap. As a first guess I am thinking it will look something like this --keeping in mind that C, G, D & A strings are wound and E is plain.

    Thanks for the thoughts on the nut & saddle Graham -- I understand what you are saying - -I plan to make some fake maple nuts first for trial and error since I can cut them almost to size -- too much work to practice on shaped bone nuts!! LOL

    I added my diagram of the saddle about the time you commented...
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    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  10. #8
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Hi Bernie,

    I suggest spending the $10 on Graham's Bouzouki ebook (http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/publications.html). It's a great read on how he builds but, more important to your project, he has a nut and bridge template for five course string spacings included.
    Pete Braccio

    "The Rules: Play nice and don't run with scissors"
    http://www.braccio.me
    Check out my web site for:
    Jack Tottle music files
    BBC Virtual Session files
    O'Neill's PDFs
    ITM Tunebooks, and more

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    Registered User Ken Olmstead's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Very cool! Thanks Bernie!!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/tenorbanjoguy

    "Gettin' by" with the imports!

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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Braccio View Post
    Hi Bernie,
    I suggest spending the $10 on Graham's Bouzouki ebook (http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/publications.html). It's a great read on how he builds but, more important to your project, he has a nut and bridge template for five course string spacings included.
    Thanks Pete! Good idea it shall be done.

    I was looking back at your thread yesterday and recalled that, in the end, the bridge you used was actually a linear transition that included the plain wire E-course. Interesting because I happen to have an ebony saddle just like that from a 1940 Vega that I made into a mandocello a few years ago.
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  14. #11
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Some pictures of the conversion. All deal with filling the guitar tuner holes, drilling new holes and covering the headstock with ebony veneer. They are obviously not in any logical order which would be fill guitar holes, plug and sand flush, cover. drill holes for cittern (done because covering with ebony verneer was not part of plan A), cover with ebony veneer -- i.e., plan B! LOL.
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    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Cool pictures Bernie!! Looks like fun, I should try and be more adventurous someday!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/tenorbanjoguy

    "Gettin' by" with the imports!

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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    I have not been working on the cittern for a while -- been involved in a campaign for the Ohio house of representatives. Back to it now though!

    At Pete 's suggestion I bought an copy of Graham's Bouzouki e-book. It's a really great resource and I have to thank Graham for the book and Pete for the suggestion!

    In his book Graham lays out a spacing pattern for a cittern nut of 42 mm (1.66 inches). But I am dealing with an instrument that has a nut of 46 mm (1.81 inches) and so I will need to alter that spacing pattern a bit.

    I put together an Excel program that will graph out the nut when different inter-course and intra-course spacings are plugged in. Here is how I propose to do the nut on this cittern.

    The actual spacings in mm are listed in the table below the diagram which shows how the nut will look. (all measurements are from the center of the strings -- so "Bass edge" is the distance for the bass end of the nut to the center of the first C-string, and the "C-C spacing" is from the center of the first C string to the center of the second one etc.)

    Any suggestions for considering a change in this plan? BTW the last box should read "Treble edge"!
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    Bernie
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Finally a little progress again. I'm done (for now working on the headstock) -- here is couple images of the new headstock appearance with cittern five-on-a-side tuners.

    In addition, and the new bone nut has been crave and put in place -- that will be slotted tomorrow.

    Also an image of the putative new cittern next to my Gibson K-50 mandocello.

    Finally I finished the rough carving on the cittern bridge yesterday and an image is included.

    Working on modifying the guitar trapeze tail piece to accept 10 strings -- then it is time to string it up for the first time.
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    Bernie
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    A few more steps completed today. I notched the nut and the bridge saddle using the methods outline in Graham's eBook. Both operations seemed to have gone as planned -- see pics.

    In my case the nut was 56 mm instead of the example of 52 mm shown in the book and the working area on my saddle was 70 mm so, in both cases, I ended up spacing the strings a bit farther apart then the examples in the Grahams's eBook.

    I strung up the C and E courses (the outer courses) after fixing up the tail piece and it looks like these spacings on the nut and saddle are going to work out well. I am happy with the distance of the outer strings (i.e., C1 and E2) from the edge of the fret board.

    I also modified the 6-string tail piece to accept 10 strings (5 courses) and I forgot to take pictures of it but I will next time I take it down to add the rest of the strings tomorrow.
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    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  19. #16

    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Reviving an old thread. Bernie, how did this conversion work out as far as standing up to the strain of ten strings? Did any structural issues pop up? Was there any bowing of the neck or sinking of the top? How did it sound and play?

    I'm thinking of converting a lh-300 to mandocello. It looks like a good candidate.

  20. #17
    Oscar Stern s11141827's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar guitar to cittern conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I've had a few questions on this project so I thought I'd just post a bit on it. I am converting a new The Loar LH-350 arch top guitar into a 5 course cittern (or lutio) -- tuned CGDAE.

    The project was inspired by Pete Braccio's early effort detailed in this string in the CBOM section of the forum.

    I bought a new The Loar LH-350 for cheap -- too cheap as it turned out. The seller knew it was "a second" but he did not know why and even after a lot of questions I didn't either.

    He said if it turned out to be a bid deal he'd send me a hard shell case to compensate. Well he was good for his word and I now have a new Guardian HSC for it when I'm done.

    It turned out once I had it in hand that problem was cosmetic. The fluer on the headstock was off center. With three tuners on a side it did not jump out at me --at first. But when I took the guitar tuners off as started measuring for the fie-on-a-side cittern tuners I soon found there was no "middle in the middle" of the inlay.

    A few pics of the starter guitar. The pic of the headstock shows the flaw very clearly -- it looks even worse once you notice it! LOL!

    So I decided to cover the head stock with 0.6mm ebony veneer and then add some new inlay. Which I did. I bought a simple MOP and abalone diamond which I inlaid then made a mask out of the ebony veneer allowing the diamond and the inlay "The Loar" to be exposed.

    I'll post a few images of the process when I have time to get them off the camera but here are a few pics of what it looks like now with the ebony veneer the tuners in place but before I have done any finishing.

    All I have done at this point is to stain the ebony with "ebony black" water based aniline dye. Also a pic of the tuners from the back and the front of the instrument now. I need to do some more scraping around the diamond and the script. I will probably sand a bit more with P2000 paper and then if it looks nice and uniform (no blotches) I will seal the ebony with clear shellac and then fill the depressions (the diamond and the script) with nitrocellulose until if is flush with the veneer.

    The whole top will be sanded flush and then coated with 6 coats of clear nitrocellulose using a little touch up sprayer.

    I have the new bridge and saddle carved and also a new bone nut. I am replacing the trapeze TP with an identical gold plated one that I have modified to accept 10 strings. I'll show some pics of that stuff too soon.

    I expect when I done I'll keep it for a few weeks then sell it in the classifieds and move on I guess....people should probably not let me borrow their arch top guitar ever.

    I need to move the fret marker from fret #9 to fret #10 yet too!!!
    Thomastik Infeld makes amazing stringsClick image for larger version. 

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    - - - Updated - - -

    They're flatwound for that slick jazz feel

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