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Thread: Violin gear tuning machines?

  1. #1
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    Default Violin gear tuning machines?

    I am having trouble tuning my fiddle even with the small tuners on the tail peice. is there a kit or sutible tuning machines, simular to guitar or mandoling tuning machines that i can put in place of the pegs? It is not a valuable fiddle so i wouldn't mind altering the peg head. there was one fellow i talked to about a month ago who had machine tuning pegs but he had bought the instrument with them already installed. is this something I can do or do i need a luthier?
    Lee

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    I have not tried these but they are an interesting product from a respected company. Note that you have to measure the holes carefully and buy the size that fits your holes most closely. they come in 7.2 mm, 7.8 mm, and 8.6 mm. No fine tuners are necessary when you use these. The gear work is hidden in the shaft!

    http://www.internationalviolin.com/i...ItemCode=775+S
    Don

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    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    There are two good options:

    1) Pegheds (yes, that unfortunate spelling is correct) which look just like regular violin pegs but are actually 4:1 planetary machines. Brilliant engineering. You'll need to have someone with experience install them. Trying to do that on your own could waste a lot of time and money. http://www.pegheds.com/ There are other pegs like these, don't theink about them! I have no commercial interest, but I've installed all of them. Pegheds direct from the inventor are the bomb.

    2) sidemounted geared tuners like you see on double basses.



    These are available from various sellers. They look a bit odd, they devalue the instrument (if that's an issue), but they work great. They also require some help with installation.
    .
    ph

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    Registered User Jim Adwell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    Do either of these options change the balance of the instrument? They must weigh more, being metal. Or is that not a problem?

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    Paul have you ever tried the Wittner Finetune pegs? They are fairly new. Concept looks about the same as the Pegheds but they are made in 3 different sizes so that they can be installed without a reamer. They supposedly can just be put in by the user if they measure the hole correctly. I know you say don't think about any brands other than Peghed, but generally Wittner has a reputation for making good stuff.

    The side mount gear tuners enjoyed a fad around the 50's or so but they quickly fell out of favor. You still see them installed on used instruments from that era from time to time. And yes they are still available. But the reasons they are not popular with players anymore is they make the instrument scroll heavy (all that metal!) . Also it should be obvious why they devalue an instrument. Look at all the holes you have to drill to install them! 5 holes per side, 10 screw holes altogether in a part of the instrument that is not exactly sturdy. And as for how well they work, I have to respectfully disagree with Paul. The concept seems good, but in practice, not so much. Look carefully at Paul's picture of the geared tuners. Notice how the shafts of the 2 tuners lean in towards one another. This makes the two buttons very close together and difficult to grasp, at least for me.

    I would never install those metal tuners on any instrument I cared anything about. The Pegheds would be a great option. I do have experience with another brand similar to pegheds I thought were good, called Perfection pegs. I have never tried the Wittners but I think they are worth a try based on Wittner's reputation.
    Don

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    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    Wittners are OK, but inferior to Pegheds. That's why I recommended the Pegheds.

    Neither really affect the balance much, if at all.

    The guitar-style geared tuners have been around for 150 years. Going anxiously and indignantly overboard explaining why I clearly said they'd devalue the instruments isn't really necessary. They can save an instrument that already has a ruined scroll, and the negatives are really obvious. I wasn't recommending them, I simply pointed out their existence, as requested.

    Last edited by Paul Hostetter; Apr-18-2014 at 9:02pm.
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    I re-read my previous post and I find nothing at all "anxious" or "indignant" about it. Nor do I find any needless words. I wanted our OP to have complete information. I tried to give my perspective. I am a violinist myself and a string educator and orchestra direstor (retired) with over 30 years experience and the opportunity to examine and inspect perhaps thousands of student violins. In all those years I've probably seen and handled just about everything imaginable including instruments equipped with those two on a plate machines. And I do not like them for the reasons stated above. I will not repeat myself because I do not want to be accused of more needless words. Perhaps you think my perspective is irrelevant. Our OP and the rest of our community may feel differently however. Isn't an open forum supposed to be an opportunity for diverse opinions?

    I defer to your judgement on the Wittners. You have experience with them and I don't. But as to the 2 on a plate tuners I do have one tiny disagreement with your post. You say you weren't recommending them. But previously you said "but they work great". Sounds a lot like a recommendation to me. I felt I needed to respond with my experiece which has been they don't work so hot.

    I am sorry that you felt offended by my post. I meant no offense. I have found your posts to be quite helpful in the past.
    Don

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    you could also have your pegs fitted properly, done correctly they will not slip, you will see a lot of fiddles played by great players that only have one fine tuner, they would not use a fiddle that slips out of tune or is a pita to keep in tune. I think the end result would be a better alternative and probably cheaper. But you would need a luthier for that also.

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    I suggest, given that most fiddles work without perfection or other planetary tuners, that you have your pegs checked out, clean and lube (paraffin wax) your fine tuners, and perhaps get an expert to demonstrate the techniques they use to tune. Then you won't be handicapped in trying other fiddles, and yours will seem more friendly.

    On the planetary pegs, installation is easy, but a 1:30 tapered reamer is useful.

    On Wittners, I have been told some early critical comment has been blunted by improvements. I have not tried the improved version.
    Stephen Perry

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    I have put Perfection pegs on all my fiddles including a very old Italian violin. No downside, the process is reversible if you wish to sell later to a traditionalist. Regular pegs with peg dope and maintained work ok, but not as well with higher tension steel core strings, granted that I don't use. I highly recommend them. Sometimes I keep a fine tuner on the e sometimes not. No one makes Atwood version, but I had heard that Knilling was considering it. I can change tuning on my violins with ease. I would never go back.
    John

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    I have no experience with Pegheads. But a year ago i had Wittner tuners installed in my 1930's German fiddle. The bottom line: I would not do it again. My other fiddles will remain with 4 fine tuners.

    The fiddle was expensive, and came with the standard classical set-up of 1 fine tuner on the E-string. I've always hated using standard friction pegs, so I had a choice: all fine tuners, or geared pegs. Classical players believe that fine tuners degrade the tone quality. However, I have never seen a comparison, using recordings of the same instrument and player, with and without fine tuners.

    I decided to go ahead and have the Wittners installed. I choose them over the Pegheads, because they have twice the gear ration as the Pegheads (8:1 instead of 4:1). Thus, I figured, they should be more precise. My very experienced violin tech had a devil of a time getting them to fit. She had to spend a lot of time carefully enlarging the peg holes to get them to fit right.

    The results are just OK. They are not smooth working, like fine tuners, but have a certain "lumpiness". You turn the peg and nothing happens, then keep turning and there's a little "jump" in the tone. They do work, and are certainly are a vast improvement over friction pegs, but they're just not as quick or precise as fine tuners.

    My advice:

    As others have suggested, have an experienced violin repair person check out the set-up. Maybe your friction pegs are slipping.

    Also, get decent strings--all-metal, not the synthetic ones that classical players prefer. I like Helicore Heavy Gauge strings. They stay beautifully in tune, requiring only an occasional little tweaking. Used instruments sometimes come with cheap, old strings, which are harder to keep in tune.

    Christine Robins

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    I've played violin for 40 years (you'd think I'd get better someday). I'll echo the good advice from Stephen Perry and johnbarleycorn - fiddlers have been tuning their instruments with pegs for centuries, and you can too. Nothing wrong with new tech; and certainly violinists tend to be even more hide-bound and traditional than even bluegrass players Go with new geared pegs if you like; many have. You may just need to get your existing pegs fit and doped up properly.

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    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    The violins you see with one fine tuner are typically strung with either gut or synthetic gut sets, such as Thomastik Dominants. There are many variations, all seem to mention perlon. The E strings on all violin sets (except for historical instruments that still use gut) are steel, which really need a fine tuner. Otherwise, for the G, D and A, the fine tuners don't do much at all. You just need pegs that work.

    For steel-string violin sets, such as Helicores, Chromcor, Prim, Ultra-Sensitive and the like, you really need fine tuners, whether your regular ebony friction pegs work well or not.

    Knilling licensed Pegheds years ago, rebranded them as Perfection, but they don't ever seem to work right.

    A number of people who have had me install geared tuners like Pegheds have had it done because they had physical issues that prevented them from being able to turn the pegs, even when they were working well. It wasn't the pegs, or how well-fitted and adjusted they were or weren't, it was a physical situation. By the same token, some people can't turn fine tuners, they're too small.

    In my shop, Pegheds (installed) are barely more expensive than a new set of simple friction pegs, and if putting on new wooden pegs requires bushing or a A-string crack repair, Pegheds are cheaper.

    Stephen's point about learning to use regular pegs is spot on. Most people don't realize that the taper is something you have to learn to work with.

    Christine, there are an awful lot of great fiddlers—bluegrass, old-time, Swedish, Scottish, Irish—who play on perlon strings. They're not just for classical players. And an awful lot of classical players prefer Helicores which, to many ears, are a tonal hybrid of steel and perlon.
    .
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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    I've set up most of my fiddles with Hill style fine tuners on all 4 (or 5) strings.

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Hostetter View Post
    There are two good options:

    1) Pegheds (yes, that unfortunate spelling is correct) which look just like regular violin pegs but are actually 4:1 planetary machines. Brilliant engineering. You'll need to have someone with experience install them. Trying to do that on your own could waste a lot of time and money. http://www.pegheds.com/ There are other pegs like these, don't theink about them! I have no commercial interest, but I've installed all of them. Pegheds direct from the inventor are the bomb.

    2) sidemounted geared tuners like you see on double basses.



    These are available from various sellers. They look a bit odd, they devalue the instrument (if that's an issue), but they work great. They also require some help with installation.
    You know what, they don't devalue an instrument anymore because they've made alot of refinements to them. What they've done rather cleverly here is 1) they've changed the name to "Easy Tune Machine Heads":https://www.ebay.com/itm/20222859120...c5a93a3b1ae98d because they make the instrument look & sound like it's going to hold tune 2) they're ultra-ergonomic because they're close enough together which makes them even easier to reach, 3) they use teeny tiny no damage done to the peg box at all screws, 4) they're made out of ultra-light recycled metal & plastic as opposed to ebony (because Ebony is an endangered material), & 5) they now include instructions on how to properly install them.

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    These now called "Easy tune Violin Machine Head tuners" are easier to install than you think because they now include instructions, plus they're not ebony wood which is becoming endangered, instead they're made out of recycled ultralight metal & plastic. They improve the sound & look of the instrument:https://www.hangoutstorage.com/fiddl...3541682018.jpg to "Stay in tune Ergonomically" by putting the strings at a little bit of a sharper angle to the nut.

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    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    Wittner tuners work for my wife and I. They eliminate the need for fine tuners and they do not change the violin so much that it cannot be retrofitted with traditional pegs. I've grown to love them!

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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    I had a set of Pegheds on a 5 string cello I had made about 10 years ago, and I now have a set of Witttner geared pegs on a plain gut strung Baroque setup fiddle. I don't know if Pegheds still have the same fitting system, but at the time they needed glueing in, and one of them came unglued at an inconvenient time. You could get various wood or custom heads to fit, which was great, but I wasn't very keen on the way the epicyclic gears lost their grip when you pulled the heads out. I don't have any issues with the Wittners - they just seem to work. I think Wittners have knulrling on the shaft, so that once pushed in they shouldn't slip. My fiddle guy had no problems fitting them, but who knows?

    Neither is something I'd do on a very valuable instrument - but I only have experience of these two sets. I suspect you'd need a fine adjuster on the E string even if you have geared pegs, a lighweight composite or carbon one might do it. Also, geared pegs are a hassle when replacing strings, because unlike guitar and mandolin, you can't wind the string round the peg before pushing the end through the peg - there's a lot of winding to do.

    By the way, if you use synthetic core strings on your fiddle, you will get used to tuning the G D A strings using just the peg, if you don't have any choice . With any metal core strings I've used, you do need a fine tuner at the tailpiece (preferably eg a Wittner or Thomastik alloy or composite 4 x fine tuner tailpiece), because metal cores aren't as stretchy as synthetic core, they're just harder to tune without fine tuners. Fine tuner tailpieces are possibly the best answer unless you want it to look like there's no tuners, some classical players prefer that.

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    Since we've exhumed this zombie thread, let me state I've since added a 10 string Hardanger viola. I asked the builder to use perfection pegs and I'm a true believer now!

    My other 4 fiddles have regular tapered pegs (well one has Caspari pegs). If I played the others more I might fit them with perfection pegs as well.

  23. #20
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    Default Re: Violin gear tuning machines?

    Ya know what Mechanical Pegs are becoming much much more popular since they actually turn more smoothly & won't wear down the peg box when you turn them. Geared Pegs are awesome, & as we say "No Slipping Pegs, no worries"

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