Helping hands, finger joints are keeping me away from the mando

[sish]

Fellow Cafe Members -

I've been playing for a couple of years, in fact last year I finally upgraded my Eastman to a beautiful Breedlove KF. I've also built a mandolin this year, and am no stranger to getting a very nice low action.

Somehow though, in the last few months I've gradually become unable to play for more than just a few minutes at a time. The knuckles in the first and second finger (first and second knuckles that is) begin to swell and get hard to close. The pain continues until I have to stop and rest it, takes almost 24 hours before it feels normal again.

At first I stopped playing anything, of course I felt fine in 24hrs, but I was getting quite frustrated. So I went and pulled out the Tenor Banjo. Remarkably, I can play the Tenor Banjo for hours and hours with no pain. It's given me something to work on in lieu of the mandolin for sure, but I can't say I like the idea of joint pain in my thirties!

I believe it all coincided with my intense chop chord training regimen, however I'm not certain. I've been to doctors before for things like this and always seem to get one of the following:

Here's a prescription for XYZ anti-inflammatory

Stop doing that

Rest it for XXX days

Ice and rest it

Ice, heat, and rest it

You get the picture.

I'll going to keep resting it and only going to play the banjo for the time being, but wanted to know if anyone on here has experienced something similar and has any recommendations or suggestions.

I forgot to mention, I used to take lessons from Pete Martin, when asked he said my hand position looked good (via skype). So I don't think it's simple hand position...

Thanks!

Matt

[billhay4]

Pete went to a therapist who was an expert in musical injuries, ergonomics, and proper technique. I'd ask him who this was and find someone who really understands mandolin technique and playing.
Good luck.
Bill

[Beanzy]

I'm right there too.
It sounds like mine which is osteo-arthritis and the 'cures' people recommend tend to be those effective with rheumatoid arthritis so won't do you any good.
The main thing is not to aggravate it so as not to flare-up as those can last for days at a time.
Don't use vibrating machinery chain-saws/mowers or do things like chopping/sawing/off-road biking/prolonged hard gripping etc or it'll come up and then the mandolin playing will hurt.

In terms of getting through the painful patches I use a 10% ibuprofen gel and when it has been rubbed in, lightly damp the hands and rub it in deper. It's not so bad for me when I play up the fret-board, but the lower few frets in 1st position mean the index finger is fairly tightly closed so gets sore quicker. You can try bringing the wrist foward to open the fingers more when down there, but it's not an ideal solution as it can be a bit awkward to do. My tenor guitar and cello aren't as bad as they demand less strength and are more open.

The bad news is there really is no cure if it is osteo-arthritis. The good news is the mandolin playing actually helps to keep the hand flexible and (unless you are gripping like a monster) probably isn't the original cause, just the thing you do lots that shows it up. I'd say get a doc to confirm the type, then if rheumatoid try the recommended potions, if that or osteo limit the activities that cause impacts to the bones and joints.

[Jay G Miller]

I've had both finger joint problems in the past as well as left elbow problems. Both were inflamed from arthritis caused by injury. There are some things you can try to help reduce the inflamation for that. All these suggestions are simply that, but I can vouch for the effectiveness. I use tart cherry juice extract presently with decent results, enough it doesnt hurt my playing until around 2 hours of practise. Here are some others that are highly recommended for inflamation/arthritis. SAM-e (S-adenoslymethionine) 600-1000 mg per day in three doses,,,or ....avacado/soybean unsaponifiables in a mix of 1/3 avacodo oil to 2/3 soybean oil,,,,,or.....Turmeric/Curcumin 500 mg 2x-4x daily.

Swansons Vitamins has most of this stuff on the net.

[Stephen Perry]

I changed diet. Dropped gluten mostly, minimize fat, minimize tomato (couldn't give that up!), and whole hand immersion in ice water as long as I could stand. I have just the faintest irritation rarely now and can even play the piano without ill effect.

Not that the other stuff isn't good - the mega dose anti-inflammatories for my back injury are helping some, too, but a real solution!

[sish]

These are all interesting suggestions. I have had a number of un-related surgeries over the years and in the last year have completely re-vamped my diet. Much like Stephen indicated, tomato isn't gone, but is far lower than it's ever been, also more omega-3s, more vegetables, more water, etc. etc. I will look into those other supplements as well.

My wife seems to think it's stress related, my job has ballooned in stress recently and she thinks that is affecting my health in a myriad of ways. Who knows, perhaps her "Hollywood Upstairs Medical Clinic" RE: FAKE medical degree is paying dividends.

I'm also thinking I'm squeezing too hard, the banjo requires basically no strength, perhaps I need to really try to find the magic position and minimal amount of compression necessary to get good tone out of the mandolin.

I just read the Breedlove has a wider neck (and confirmed it with my hand built mandolin)..I wonder if that is part of my issue? Perhaps I'll switch to playing my mandolin more and see if that change in positioning helps.

Thanks for all the suggestions, it's really nice to know I am not alone.

Matt

[Jay G Miller]

Sish, I think alot of my finger problems in the past were aggrevated from squeezing too hard, maybe my elbow too. I played an old Stella mando learning years ago that needed adjustments badly (I didn't know at the time) and took alot to get clean notes from. I think that bad learning habit still plagues me today some 30 years later to some degree, though I try to remain conscious of the problem and strive to break that mold. That bad habit cost wear and tear on me, my frets, and hindered speed, so it's worth breaking that habit. I hold much more relaxed than ever before but still find i'm using more pressure than needed for my easy playing mando's. It's a tough one to break free from because I dont even realise I'm doing it much of the time, as I think I'm holding fret pressure properly and find I'm not when I test to see just how much less pressure I could use. Good luck I sure hope this all works out for you. I know how miserable it is wanting to play so bad and not being able to.

If you decide to use supplements, some can be expensive. About the best and cheapest is Swanson Vitamins own brand called AvoVida. Coupled with their MSM is really good, with science backing it up. If I was to pick one, thats what I'd start with. 300 mg is the daily dose of AvoVida for inflamation or osteoarthritis and MSM dose is on the bottle. It takes a couple weeks to get the full effect. For quick relief, use a cream product with capsaicin. A dose of .25 -.50% on tender skin, or extra strength for tough and leathery hands. It gets hot so be warned, and do not wrap. The lighter dose isnt enough on my old beat up hands but the xtra strength is. Choose according to your needs.

[Jon Hall]

I have to be careful about not pressing the strings any harder than what it takes to produce a nice tone. If you have sustained an injury it will take longer than 24 hours to heal. Not pressing as hard will increase your dexterity.

Is your mandolin set up so it plays easily? Do you use a strap when you play?

[Freddyfingers]

It seems like its mandolin related. Which is not great news, but optimistic. If you can get through on the tenor banjo with out issue, then its the mandolin with the problem. Try a different mandolin. Maybe one with a wider neck? Maybe a mandola, or even an octave, which is spread out more. I know the pain is there, and the mandolin brings it out, and thats a scary thought, but it seems like you can find a way around it. Best of luck, and don't give up. Hand injuries scare me a lot. I recently took up boxing. Which makes no sense, as for years I never touched power tools, as I feared hand injuries. Now here I am smashing my hands into big bags! I am starting slow, and everyday I grab the mandolin or guitar, just to make sure it still works. If I ever get the feeling its hurting my playing, its back to couch potato.

[JeffD]

I mention this every time in threads like this and I am sure it is rarely if ever the solution, but just something not to be overlooked.

I developed intense joint and wrist pain in my left hand after playing for 20 or 30 minutes. I would have to stop and take a break.

I tried lots of things, including careful warm up with a scrunchie ball. After hard playing over multiple days, like at a festival or something, I would be in pain for several days afterwards.


I got a general physical, for unrelated reasons, and it turned out I am diabetic and my blood glucose was off the chart. With medication and radical diet changes within a week or so my blood glucose was normal - and all the pain went away. Suddenly, after almost a year of accomodations and taking breaks, suddenly I could play as long as I wanted, no pain, no after effects.

And it has been fine to this day.

With the noticeable inflamation you desribe I think other suggestions are going to be more useful, but as a general thing its probably good to keep in mind that though the pain is localized, the problem may not be.

Play healthy and stay healthy, people.

[Ellen T]

You might try wearing one of those compression sleeves with no finger ends while you are playing. They feel like a massage, and also hold in the body heat. They are available at medical supply stores and possibly some drugstores. Hope you find some relief in all the suggestions here.

[kjcole]

wow! That's a pretty rapid aggravation - just a few minutes! And then a prolonged inflammatory response. No pain for routine gripping tasks? As a newbie coming over from BG banjo, and a few years of flatpicking the guitar, I have found that those fully closed chop chords ask a lot, especially with double courses of short (stiff) strings. Maybe set up that mando for lighter and/or flatwound strings, and stay towards lead lines and 2 finger chord positions so you are reducing joint forces?? Never a bad idea to check blood pressure and maybe routine blood workup when you experience a change in health status.

[Barry Wilson]

I take a product called liga-joint by organika. it is a glucosamine sulphate based supplement. I have arthritis really bad in one finger from being broken so many times... left pinky, but it is more that just that. I started taking it while playing hockey as a goaltender. it helped loosen up my hips and knees as well. I originally got it fo my mother to help with her arthritis and tried some after a long game and it sure helped.

it is natural joint lubricant basically. I take a couple before a gig and my hands don't hurt. might be worth having a look at. I don't like pharmaceutical anything and prefer the natural route when I can

[JeffJones]

When you say chop chord training, do you mean playing this type of mandolin chord?

'A' Chop Chord

|  |  |  |
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|  |  |  |
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|  |  I  |  4th fret
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|  |  |  M
----------
|  |  |  |
----------
|  R  |  |
----------
|  |  |  |
----------
L  |  |  |

You might try substituting this type of chord and see if it any easier on your joints. The traditional Bluegrass Chop chord is pretty tough on your left hand, and I could certainly see it aggravating inflammation issues.

'A' BAR CHORD

|  |  |  |
----------
I  I  I  I  2nd fret - Index Finger Bar
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|  |  |  |
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|  |  M  |
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|  |  |  R
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|  |  |  |
----------

or you could tweak a bit that so you are not trying to bar all 4 strings...

'A' BAR CHORD

|  |  |  |
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I  I  |  |  2nd fret - Index Finger Bar 'G' & 'D' strings
----------
|  |  |  |
----------
|  |  M  |
----------
|  |  |  R
----------
|  |  |  |
----------

You might also take a close look at the differences in the way you are holding the tenor banjo and the mandolin and see if there is any way to adjust your mandolin playing to match the way you plan the tenor, since it does not seem to cause the same issues. You might even want to set up a camera as it can be hard to really analyze some things objectively while you are playing. In particular I would be looking at wrist angle, wrist rotation, shoulder and elbow positioning, and neck angle.

[Stephen Perry]

Mentioning stress and ergonomics brings a couple of things to mind.

On stress, I can clearly and unambiguously see stress as being crucial. I have noticed my various issues from injuries AND arthritis type symptoms as correlating with stress. It's a step function for me (with various other influences playing in). Suddenly I have real problems playing long and the specific areas are areas where I have had arthritis. Job stress resolution can sometimes be arranged.

Position. Now position I can help with. Very easy to have too much stress in playing instruments. I had a lesson in piano that increased my power, sensitivity, technique, and relaxation tremendously and permanently. Probably takes less than 1/2 the effort. In classical guitar, careful coaching made fretting go from work to unnoticeable. I have been able to bring this to other instruments. But it's hard to see what's what yourself. Finding someone who understands the ergonomics and relaxation can be difficult. I've actually done a great deal of coaching in that domain, not for mandolin, but it's all the same in many basic principles.

Regardless, you've got to stop reinjuring the joints until they quiet down, in my opinion. Maybe take a break, find someone to work on ergonomics, and see what works on the inflammation. I'd sit down and work with you if you were here.

[Bernie Daniel]

I changed diet. Dropped gluten mostly, minimize fat, minimize tomato (couldn't give that up!), and whole hand immersion in ice water as long as I could stand. I have just the faintest irritation rarely now and can even play the piano without ill effect.

Not that the other stuff isn't good - the mega dose anti-inflammatories for my back injury are helping some, too, but a real solution!

Stephen I could not live without tomatoes either -- I also have hand and joint issue too including swelling and pain at times.

There are hundreds of claims about arthritis and diet -- most are not proven.

By far one of the most frequently heard claims is that tomatoes and other nightshade vegetables (e.g., eggplant, peppers, and potatoes) actually relive arthritis symptoms. There are other opposite claims that these same foods acerbate arthritis. About a a year ago or so I did a search on this topic and I did not find a single scientific study to support either claim.

Obviously both claims are probably not correct.

If you think about it there many Latin countries where nightshades form a big part of the traditional diet so people here would be either low in arthritis or high if either of these claims were true? So I don't pay that theory any mind and eat a lots of tomatoes and peppers in salsa and of course potatoes too! 2 cents worth.

I find gentle stretching, rubbing, and warming up your hands (warm water) in the morning before playing helps a lot. My hands were pretty good on mandolin --but when I started playing mandocello is when the issues really started!

I think your point about stress is a good one -- stress is almost like smoking it contributes to almost every human health issue.

Also I have a feeling the a small amount of aspirin helps me with this hand pain issue. I take an 81 mg enteric coated tablet every day to reduce sticky platelets (via prostaglandin synthetase inhibition?) and I believe (but cannot prove) it helps for the arthritis too.