Recording mandolin - dealing with breath noise

[JeffJones]

WWEMD?*

Don't worry about the loud breathing and consider counting rest beats and measures out loud as well.

Call it an homage to Edgar Meyer.




* - What Would Edgar Meyer Do?

[mandroid]

Thinking of who is it (?) Glenn Gould that mumbles and hums during his piano concerts, comes to mind.


those cones that the Vet puts over the dog's head so it wont chew out the stitches ..
may come in handy ..

[Tavy]

I know you don't want to close mic, but it occurs to me that with a hypercardioid mic you could point the null towards your mouth, and the front downwards towards the instrument? Of course this would work better the taller you are!

[Avi Ziv]

I thought I should at least share some sounds after all of this discussion. So here is my interpretation of the Irish slow air Amhran Na Leabhar

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions so far. This is still work in progress but the mix is getting there. It's not mixed with laptop/cellphone speakers in mind so full range speakers/headphones will yield a better experience.

Thanks again

[foldedpath]

Very nice playing and mandolin tone, Avi!

Whatever you're doing with natural room ambiance, or that plus artificial reverb is at a nice mix level. It can be tempting to have something like this swimming in reverb, which isn't the case here.

One other comment, if you don't mind... I think the idea of a synth pad for the later part of the tune works as an arrangement, but that particular synth patch has a sort of square-wave buzz that's a bit distracting. If it's meant to simulate pipes, I don't think it sounds much like pipes. I think a smoother, more "airy" sounding pad, and maybe a little lower in the mix, would keep the focus on the mandolin. It's all about the mandolin, 'ya know.


Good work there.

[sunburst]

I agree. I normally don't like to second guess anyone on their recording choices, and I fully realize that I wasn't asked for advice on the synth track, but I think foldedpath said it well.
I think the mandolin sound is spot on! The sound of the room, the ambiance so to speak, is very effective, and of coarse the playing is superb. If I didn't completely understand the 'breathing sound' dilemma before, that clip sure puts it in perspective. Thanks for posting.

[Avi Ziv]

Thanks for the kind words, folks. I don't mind any comments on this recording. This is still work in progress and I'm experimenting with this sort of arrangement, as well as the recording technique. It's interesting that some people really like the synth and some don't. Foldedpath -I was not going for any kind of pipes emulation and looking (still) for a color that would work well with the mandolin tone. Maybe I'm not there yet. But in general I want to have a development happening on the second iteration to build up some tension.

This is going on a tangent from the issue of recording the mandolin tone itself and to that extent I'm making progress. I think I would still like to push the mic even farther away from the current 18". I'm coming to realize that the tone I like does not happen right at the f-hole but several feet out in front of the instrument. To do that I need an even better room and more clean gain if what I have (RME UFX) isn't enough. Not sure yet. I may also try a stereo recording at a distance.

Cheers,

[Avi Ziv]

Very nice playing and mandolin tone, Avi!

Whatever you're doing with natural room ambiance, or that plus artificial reverb is at a nice mix level. It can be tempting to have something like this swimming in reverb, which isn't the case here.

This is mostly room but there is a very small amount of Valhalla Room reverb mixed in to add some air and a little more space. I recently realized that just tweaking reverb plugin parameters can become a major obsession and time-suck if not too careful... I need some serious time pressure to call it done

Cheers,

[foldedpath]

This is mostly room but there is a very small amount of Valhalla Room reverb mixed in to add some air and a little more space. I recently realized that just tweaking reverb plugin parameters can become a major obsession and time-suck if not too careful... I need some serious time pressure to call it done

I hear 'ya on reverb tweaking. I can usually make quick decisions on EQ and compression, but a good algorithmic or impulse reverb plugin can lead to endless tweaking, even when it's just a light polish on the ambient sound. Too many good choices these days.

Of course with a great-sounding acoustic space you don't need much if any artificial reverb. Are there any stone cathedrals or big caves in your area?


I'm only half joking. There is something called the "Dan Harpole Cistern" in a state park not far from my house, with a reverb decay of something like 45 seconds... nice and diffuse because it's broken up by support pillars. I've never been inside, but a few people were able to get access permits for recording projects before they suspended permits (probably because it's not very safe down there)...

[Tavy]

Well,

a) I didn't notice you breathing, so... problem solved?
b) I didn't mind the synth sound at all, maybe I'd put it lower in the mix when it first comes in, but that's just personal preference.

With regard to recording in "live" spaces: there's a great article about Seth Lakeman's latest release in this quarters "Acoustic" magazine. For those who haven't crossed path's with Seth, his last few releases have been recorded in an old barrel house, a tin mine, and for his latest, in a small church (lot's of hard granite walls everywhere). The trick apparently, is to place mics everywhere (including some close mic'ed) and then figure out the mix afterward. Frankly I'd rather just use the "ambiance" VST and turn it up until you can just about detect some reverb, and call it done

[Bertram Henze]

Wow. I wish I could draw the image I have in my head right now so everyone could see. I'm picturing a mandolinist sitting in a room with cotton balls stuffed in his nose, a surgical mask around his neck and a snorkel in his mouth adjusting a microphone stand for the optimal placement so he can play a slow air whilst looking away in the opposite direction.

At last, I understand this:

[Petrus]

Cripes, tell me about it. I just listened to a bunch of mando and OM tracks that I recorded at home (on a TASCAM DR-05) and I hear my nasal breathing (sounds like a whining) almost throughout. I didn't realize the mic was that sensitive; I had it down by the body of the instrument, not near my face, but even so. Sometimes I remember to hold my breath between notes but sometimes I forget. I put enough echo/reverb/distortion on the thing to sort of mask it but it still comes through. I will have to remember to a) hold my breath completely during quiet points (or breath through the mouth) or b) wear a face mask or use a pop filter.

[Petrus]

There is something called the "Dan Harpole Cistern" in a state park not far from my house, with a reverb decay of something like 45 seconds...

Could be a good place to play a cittern, or a sistrum.

[Avi Ziv]

I hear 'ya on reverb tweaking. I can usually make quick decisions on EQ and compression, but a good algorithmic or impulse reverb plugin can lead to endless tweaking, even when it's just a light polish on the ambient sound. Too many good choices these days.

The more closely I listen (especially through revealing near field monitors) the more I'm able to separate that various components of the reverb and then the fun of tweaking gets going. My interest in sound design only adds fuel to the fire

Of course with a great-sounding acoustic space you don't need much if any artificial reverb. Are there any stone cathedrals or big caves in your area?

Oh yeah! That's what I really want. But I haven't found any such spaces yet where I can record. Always on the lookout. Every time that I'm back in Jerusalem, I walk into some of the ancient churches and just amazed by the sound in there. There is also Hezekiah's Tunnel, carved in stone, which used to bring water into the Old City from biblical times. But it is so popular and full of tourists that gaining access to record there would be very difficult.

I'm only half joking. There is something called the "Dan Harpole Cistern" in a state park not far from my house, with a reverb decay of something like 45 seconds... nice and diffuse because it's broken up by support pillars. I've never been inside, but a few people were able to get access permits for recording projects before they suspended permits (probably because it's not very safe down there)...

That was incredible! Road trip anyone?

Getting WAY off topic now and it's your fault Foldedpath!

Thanks!

[Avi Ziv]

Well,

a) I didn't notice you breathing, so... problem solved?
b) I didn't mind the synth sound at all, maybe I'd put it lower in the mix when it first comes in, but that's just personal preference.

a) I think the problem is solved. I managed to control my breathing a little better and some EQ helped too. Also in real life playback the background noise (in your car or even room) is high enough to mask some of this. The breathing was most prominently evident when monitoring in a very quiet place using pretty revealing monitors. Finally, the addition of the synth in the second part covers up any remaining problems.

b) Thanks for the feedback. The mixing is still being tweaked. I expect I'll be totally sick of this piece by the time I'm done.

Cheers,

[Avi Ziv]

At last, I understand this:

That belongs in a David Lynch film for sure.