About those 48 hour approval periods....

[yankees1]

Yeah, I'm Danny on this one. Once you mess with the instrument, you've essentially accepted it and I consider a truss rod adjustment in that category. In fact, if you put new strings on it, I would consider that a sign of acceptance as well. No hard and fast rules here, just the wild west of mail order buying and selling.

New strings ? You've got to be kidding !

[Astro]

Jeff, Im glad to hear you're pretty even tempered about it all. The responses by the forum are weighing in both camps as to whats considered a modification so I don't think either of you is wrong or unreasonable here. Just a difference in interpretation. So the moral of the story (and thanks for bringing it up)--when in doubt, talk it out. Before hand.

We just bought a "new" car. Used, of course. Its 2 years old. Part of our buy agreement was that our mechanic would check it out.

I wouldn't buy a car from someone who wouldn't allow that. Maybe a good idea to ask for the same for mandos from here on ?

[sblock]

Yeah, I'm Danny on this one. Once you mess with the instrument, you've essentially accepted it and I consider a truss rod adjustment in that category. In fact, if you put new strings on it, I would consider that a sign of acceptance as well. No hard and fast rules here, just the wild west of mail order buying and selling.

Sorry, but I doubt that many of the folks here on the Cafe are likely to agree with that extreme view. For example, what if one of the strings were missing, or broke during transit, or during tune-up? Would replacing that string constitute "acceptance" of the instrument, by your standards? Put simply, the instrument has to be played by the would-be buyer -- not just examined by eye -- in order to be properly evaluated. That aspect of the transaction is absolutely fundamental!

Let's face some facts: there are parts of the mandolin that are made to be adjusted or tweaked. And adjusting these same things reversibly, in order to carry out an evaluation, does not constitute an "acceptance" of the instrument.

In that category, I would tend to place (1) strings (which can be changed), (2) tuning gears (which can be turned), (3) finger rests (which can be removed and replaced), (4) endpins (which can be pulled and re-inserted), (5) bridges (whose position and height can be changed), (6) truss rod covers (which can be removed for inspection), (7) truss rods (which can be turned). Also, some mandolins come with (8) straps (which can be removed), (9) Tone Gards (ditto), and (10) other accessories.

These are all fair game for adjustment/change during an evaluation, provided that the change is reversible and the instrument suffers no damage. Yes, adjustments of the truss rod are probably the most "extreme" on this list, but they are a normal part of reversible mandolin adjustment. And, as someone pointed out, it's a very good idea to check that the threads aren't stripped on it during any proper evaluation.

It's also fair game to clean up the instrument, if it's dirty. And to place a tuner on the headstock. And to change out all the strings, especially if these are old. And to position the bridge properly.

Things that one should not do during an evaluation include filing the nut or the bridge, leveling the frets, sanding the bridge, scraping the neck, and anything else that cannot be undone! That part should be obvious.

As for me, I even think it would be entirely fair to fit a new bridge to the mandolin top (but leave the original bridge untouched, in case it fails the evaluation and needs to be returned!), provided that this was done in a way that did not change the rest of the instrument.

The point is that the it should be possible to check out the instrument in playing condition, and to return the instrument in fundamentally the same condition (up to new strings) to the seller if it is not deemed acceptable. Otherwise, what's the point of a 48-hour evaluation period?! Shipped mandolins are usually not playable straight out of the shipping box. In most cases, the strings have been loosened, and the bridge often needs re-positioning. The endpin may have been pulled. The pickguard may be off.

[delsbrother]

Once you mess wih it, it's yours, and I would include restringing it. For example, if you put J74s on an old bowlback and it implodes, that's not the seller's fault.

Most approval periods state the instrument must come back EXACTLY as sent. Will it be possible to tell if you've adjusted the truss rod? Probably not. But bridge and nut work? Congratulations, you just bought the instrument.

[mandotrout777]

Once you mess wih it, it's yours, and I would include restringing it. For example, if you put J74s on an old bowlback and it implodes, that's not the seller's fault.

Most approval periods state the instrument must come back EXACTLY as sent. Will it be possible to tell if you've adjusted the truss rod? Probably not. But bridge and nut work? Congratulations, you just bought the instrument.

This is why this discussion needs to happen. I think there are a lot of different misconceptions, on both sides, about "approval periods". In my opinion, if you put heavy strings on an old bowl back and it implodes, well then, it's yours. If you file the nut, or the bridge, or do something that's irreversible, it's yours. On and on.

Any seller who says you can't do ANYTHING, even change the strings, and even after reasonable discussion, isn't offering an approval period, they are just using it as a sales pitch, and the buyers need to be aware of this and ask the right questions up front.

[Iron]

I've debated bringing this up for a while now and have decided I would like to see what others think.

I recently bought a mandolin on a 48 hour approval agreement. The mandolin arrived and I initially thought it had potential, but the setup was extremely poor. There was an incredible amount of relief in the neck, the bridge saddle was all the way down, and the action was still a little on the high side. The strings were worn out and of the "flat top" variety which is not a string I would ever use. Since the mandolin was 13 years old and I knew it would need some setup work, I took it to my local luthier to have it checked out. Mainly I wanted to make sure the truss rod still functioned properly because I knew the bow in the neck was going to have to come out in order for me to keep it. When my luthier friend saw it he said it was a real mess. He checked out the truss rod, and it still functioned okay, so I had him make it more playable. Making the neck straighter made the action lower so it buzzed a bit and the saddle needed to be raised some. So I had him go ahead and do all that, plus I put on a set of J74s so I could hear the mandolin with the type of strings I typically use. The mandolin played much better, but the frets had a bit more wear than I liked (for the price I paid), and the bridge was poorly fit, you could slide a business card underneath the tailpiece side of both bridge feet. Despite the mandolin's potential, I decided it wasn't quite what I was looking for and I didn't want to just keep it on the hope that it would be "better" after all the necessary work was done. So I decided to return it.

Now comes the interesting part. When I told the seller I wanted to return it, I also told him that my luthier had tweaked it some. He informed me that this was an unacceptable modification of the instrument and refused to take it back. I explained to him that I had a professional make the adjustments and that he was free to speak with him about it. I offered to have the instrument action returned to where it was upon my receipt of it. He still refused. We exchanged some emails and, I'm ashamed to say, I got rather unpleasant about it. Anyway, since he had my money, I didn't see any real option for me, so I ended up with the mandolin. I went ahead and had some work done on it, but the whole experience was just so sour that I couldn't really like the mandolin and I moved it along, even though it still showed some potential.

So, what I would like to have people weigh in on is this: Is confirming that the truss rod still functions properly, on an older mandolin, an unacceptable modification that would void a 48-hour approval period? If it is, which I can kind of go either way on at this point, is it the responsibility of the seller to make sure a mandolin is adjusted properly prior to sending it out, or is it buyer beware and you better be sure to ask those questions before it gets shipped? Or... do you just adjust it while you have it and if you don't like it do you just put the action back where it was and send it back without telling the seller?

In my own defense as far as buyer beware, I bought this from a reputable source and made the poor assumption that the mandolin would be set up well.

Also, I do not intend this as a bashing session of anybody. I left the seller's name out on purpose, because after the fact I can sort of see their point of view, even though I don't fully agree with it. Plus, like I said, I moved it along and I'm happy with what I have now, and the new owner is happy with this mandolin (albeit after both I and another party invested time and money in it to make it "right"). I'm just curious as to what others would have done and also offer my experience as something to think about before you have a used instrument shipped to you on approval.

For me, I don't think I'll be buying any more used mandolins from internet sources.

Hindsight is 20/20 but I think I would have done a couple things differnt #1 use Paypal and in the notes plainly stated seller agrees to a 48 hour unconditional approval period #2 I would have called him and asked if he wanted the mandolin back now or did he wanted an authorized luthier to look and tweak it
I have good luck buying online, don't let this episode spoil it for you.
Best

[Vernon Hughes]

I thought I remembered a thread a while back (might not have been here) where a buyer bought an ebay instrument with a return policy and changed the very old rusty strings. Wasn't happy with it and decided to return it. Seller didn't want it back as it had been "altered" and went to ebay and paypal for negotiation. Long story short seller won as string changing fell under the heading of alteration. I sell my builds with a 48 hour approval and would rather a potential buyer contact me if something needs to be adjusted or addressed.I'd be happy to address the issues/setup/whatever for the customer and work it out.Rather not have someone else do something i'm perfectly capable of doing.It's called customer service!

[mandotrout777]

I thought I remembered a thread a while back (might not have been here) where a buyer bought an ebay instrument with a return policy and changed the very old rusty strings. Wasn't happy with it and decided to return it. Seller didn't want it back as it had been "altered" and went to ebay and paypal for negotiation. Long story short seller won as string changing fell under the heading of alteration. I sell my builds with a 48 hour approval and would rather a potential buyer contact me if something needs to be adjusted or addressed.I'd be happy to address the issues/setup/whatever for the customer and work it out.Rather not have someone else do something i'm perfectly capable of doing.It's called customer service!

Not really the topic here, but any seller of used instruments who refuses to take a return just because a buyer changed old dead strings with similar new ones, is just looking for that "out", and is using the approval period as nothing more than a sales pitch. In that situation I might even go so far as accusing them of shipping it with dead strings for that purpose. Again, buyer beware and ask the questions up front.

I once tried out a mandolin in a store and the strings were shot. I asked them if they would put new ones on it so I could hear what that sounded like. They did. I didn't buy it. No problem.

I don't think many, or maybe even any, of the issues I brought up would be a factor in a new build.

[Jim]

Comunication is the key, What you can and can't do has to be made clear and agreed upon. Changing strings is problematic. Can't tell if the mandolin is playable without 8 strings tuned to pitch, Tuning to pitch with any strings may cause instrument to self destruct. Same can be said of truss rod or any adjustable part. I say ask before making any changes.

[mrmando]

Adjusting a truss rod, changing the height of an adjustable bridge, even replacing strings all sound like things I'd be comfortable with as a guy who does a lot of Internet sales. The adjustments can be reversed. I guess if the strings had been Thomastiks I might ask the buyer to spring for a new set before sending the instrument back.

But that's just me. I decided a while ago that the happiness of my customers was more important than their sheer numbers.

[Jeff Mando]

Great stuff, guys! A few things went through my head regarding past buying and selling experiences. 1. I remember working at a vintage guitar shop and a guy left an old lapsteel needing a jack replaced. I replaced the jack and as a courtesy replaced the 40 year old strings--I didn't know he told the boss under no circumstances should the strings be replaced. I didn't know, but when he came to pick up his lapsteel I could see he was crushed. Those strings meant something to him. That was years ago and I'm sure he is still not over it. And in a weird way, I do understand. Changing strings changes the tone and usually requires a new setup, action, etc... 2. A wealthy collector I know, ordered 4 1970's Martin D-28's through eBay, with the idea of playing at home and choosing the best one and sending the other three back, taking advantage of eBay's no fault return policy....true story and as a seller I feel this is an abuse of an already too liberal return policy. 3. I sold on eBay a 30's Stella guitar with a rare finish, but needing total restoration--neck set, etc for $800, describing it as a total project. The man was thrilled to get it and had me send it directly to his luthier to begin restoration. Upon receiving the repair quote of $2000, he promptly returned the guitar to me for a refund. You can see in this case a luthier is not a friend to the seller and ruined my sale, quoting the need for black mold to be removed from "under" the braces, etc., you get the idea--I guess he had x-ray vision! Basically, a luthier does not get paid unless he finds fault, right? Would be nice if he just turned the truss rod and said, "no charge, have a nice day" at least once in a while...anyway, obviously as a seller I have no control over what a luthier charges, do I? Another luthier could have quoted $125 for the same work, who knows? Anyway, as a seller, I see a red flag when a customer talks "luthier"..... 4. Another common abuse of the return privelege is a dealer buying with a certain customer in mind and the customer passes on the instrument and the dealer makes up a reason for a return, when the real reason is the customer passed on it. Sorry to be so long-winded, but as a seller I try not to sell anything I wouldn't own myself and do feel insulted when a customer is not thrilled with an instrument. I do accept returns and want my customer to be happy, BUT this ain't Walmart, you can't return for buyer's remorse or if your wife yelled at you, or if you spent the insurance money on a new toy! Most of this obviously doesn't apply to your situation, Jeff

[delsbrother]

Once you saw it had more issues than what was palatable to you, you needed to make the decision to return it then and there. That's all the "approval" period does for you. It protects you from buying something that was misrepresented. If you "see potential" in a beater - you buy it, and THEN explore its potential. You don't alter it and then cry foul when the seller won't take it back. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

The used car analogy is useful, but instead of comparing adjusting the action to adjusting the car seat, I'd say it was more like adjusting the alignment. It's the kind of thing you do to a car you OWN, not a car you're checking out.

[Douglas McMullin]

I ran into a similar issue once while selling a ukulele. The buyer received the uke, kept it for 48hrs without communication, took it to a shop for an action adjustment, and then said he wanted to return it because there was a small hairline crack in the fret board wood. I did not take the uke back based on it being past the 48hr period and because he had it worked on without checking with me first. As to the crack, I was not aware of it when it was sent and at that point I had no way of knowing if it was pre-existing, if it happened in transport, or under the buyers care.

At the very least, I think a buyer has the responsibility of vetting any adjustment plans with the seller. As a buyer, I would assume that the minute I start tweaking more than a bridge placement or maybe strings, that I am committed to keeping it. If it needs more than that for me to be sure I want it, I would first have a conversation with the seller about the issues or I would send it back.

[Dagger Gordon]

I think this is an interesting discussion.

Personally I don't like to buy any instrument unless I'm pretty happy with it as I find it in the first place. I've been disappointed with instruments and indeed some makes that certainly had a good enough reputation but I guess weren't for me.

So ... potential?

This seems to me to involve a certain leap of faith and it might well not be as good as you hoped, but if it's cheap enough it is probably worth a try.

But if it looks worse than you thought when you see it my instinct would be to abandon the project at that point.
As Eddie Sheehy noted "By going ahead on your own you gave him an " out" as he saw it and he took it."

Remember the seller does probably want shot of the thing and doesn't really want to have to deal with returning it or any other hassle.

[Canoedad]

Is everyone in agreement that bridge placement adjustments are OK as a matter of course? Personally, I think I'd rather have someone tweak a truss rod or change strings before I'd want them shifting the bridge around. Potential to mar the finish in the new location? Heck yes!

[Ted Eschliman]

Two things I see in this. The biggest is the notion that all repair techs are equal. One luthier's idea of "optimum" playing will be different than another's and I think it's dangerous to assume the buyer's "guy" has the only concept of performance acceptability. Standards are rarely universal. I wouldn't want another raising bridge height, changing to another brand of strings (flatwound to roundwound), or something major without knowing they wanted to do this in advance. If it comes back, I have to pay someone to reverse it all back.

Of course this all changes when you own the instrument, but during the approval period the instrument belongs to the seller. That's the second part. You have to pay for it before it's yours.

I've always seen the approval period as a courtesy of the seller. It would be be better to call it a "disapproval" trial, the final right to cancel the transaction in the sale, not the beginning.

[Austin Bob]

I agree this is an interesting discussion. While some feel that any change to the instrument (including strings) voids the return, others have a much more liberal view.

I guess this points to the need to put it in writing. If I were buying a used mandolin, the two things I would pay the most attention to are the action, and the condition of the tuners. If neither were in acceptable condition, I would notify the seller immediately.

I also don't like having to pay return shipping if the item is not as described. If the buy claims it's in very good condition, but when you receive it you find the instrument needs substantial work, why should you have to pay return shipping?

[sachmo63]

When you go into say Elderly to try out some guitars you wouldn't start changing the action would you? No, you wouldn't then what makes you think it's ok for a private seller.

I think the buyer is just taking advantage of the situation.

The "buyer" had every right to stick to his guns. Most adds say "exactly the same condition" not "take it to my luthier tweak it then decide it doesn't suit me"

This buyer is just silly and the he got hateful on the phone, my heart goes out to the seller.

[Nick Gellie]

Well, if you sees something wrong with it straightaway within the 48-h approval period, don't touch it. Send it back and say it does not meet your buyer's specifications. When a mandolin comes to you and it is not properly set up, the seller has no idea of what a good set up is. He may have affected the instrument too while he has had it.

Being in Oz, it is too expensive to ask for a 48-h approval period, especially we have to pay for the 2-way trip. I bought a fantastic Arches mandolin recently. There were some slight teensy cracks in the lacquer where the tortoise shell binding met the ribs. I discussed it with the buyer who I consider to be an honourable guy - he said that it had no cracks in the varnish when he had it. It could have been dry humidity in transit travelling to Oz that caused it. I believed him and I still have the mando.

As always, buyer beware and take care!

[spufman]

I would consider the 48 hour period one to make sure you like the playability and tone of the instrument. Making that determination almost always requires at least a little setup tweaking. The things are designed to be adjusted within parameters that it sounds like your adjustments fell within. I see little point to an approval period if you need to make your judgement based on someone else's idea of comfortable setup. Changing strings, adjusting the truss rod and adjusting the bridge is not only acceptable but to be expected, in my opinion.

[fatt-dad]

I like what Ted said, "during the approval period the instrument belongs to the seller." If you want to change anything, you'd need the owner's permission. If you want to step into the shoes of the owner (i.e., not ask permission), then you are assuming ownership.

As a seller, I consider it my obligation for the instrument to arrive in a playable condition. Sure, an owner may want to modify the setup or such to preference, but to me that's the owner's option. So, step up to the plate and take ownership. Alternately if it's not suited for playing upon arrival, send it back.

Sellers want to get rid of product. Seller's don't want unnecessary uncertainty. Seller's don't want to relist, 'cause it begs the question, "What happened to the first sale?"

So, I vote for, "Leave it alone!"

f-d

[nickster60]

I don't buy any instruments unless I can play them in person anymore. I have bought many violins over the years and some haven't had there strings changed in many years. I feel it is difficult to access a instrument with old strings. The few mandolins I have purchased from the online sources including the cafe classifieds I have sold. They never seem to live up to my expectations and I am sure I am just fussy. I have a mandolin I am selling now I have grown weary of shipping instruments and all of the potential pitfalls involved.

[terzinator]

All good replies, so no need for a "+1" or whatever...

But bridge movement/placement can be tricky. Sometimes they shift during shipping, so I don't know that I'd worry too much about that, either as a seller or buyer. If the intonation is off, and moving the bridge would fix it, well, then...

But you're right... anything that changes anything, even a string change (and, sure, a bridge adjustment, might as well), should be communicated first. Just to prevent what you're describing.

At least your guy responded and you had a conversation, albeit not with the outcome you would have liked. A few years ago, I bought an MT off the Classifieds that was described as a Wide-Nut and it was no such thing. (Checked serial # with Collings to confirm.) Contacted the seller, but he went off the grid. Nada. Bupkiss.

THAT was s a bummer. Mando sounded great, though, so it wasn't a nightmare or anything.

When you're selling something, the last thing you wanna hear is that someone wants to send it back. The seller probably already spent the proceeds, at least in his mind, and now the hassle is back, and the dream is deferred.

All you did was give him a "legitimate" reason to reject the return. And that was all he needed.

Some sellers, though, are stand-up folks. They want you to be happy, but more importantly, they see it as the honorable thing to make sure the item is presented honestly, described accurately, and priced fairly. Warts and all. We're all in this together, right?

Good communication BEFORE the sale often reveals many truths.

[Bernie Daniel]

Comunication is the key, What you can and can't do has to be made clear and agreed upon. Changing strings is problematic. Can't tell if the mandolin is playable without 8 strings tuned to pitch, Tuning to pitch with any strings may cause instrument to self destruct. Same can be said of truss rod or any adjustable part. I say ask before making any changes.

So keep the mandolin and then the first time you bring it to pitch after the 48 hour period has expired it self-destructs? I don't like that plan!

[Bernie Daniel]

I like what Ted said, "during the approval period the instrument belongs to the seller." If you want to change anything, you'd need the owner's permission. If you want to step into the shoes of the owner (i.e., not ask permission), then you are assuming ownership.

As a seller, I consider it my obligation for the instrument to arrive in a playable condition. Sure, an owner may want to modify the setup or such to preference, but to me that's the owner's option. So, step up to the plate and take ownership. Alternately if it's not suited for playing upon arrival, send it back.

Sellers want to get rid of product. Seller's don't want unnecessary uncertainty. Seller's don't want to relist, 'cause it begs the question, "What happened to the first sale?"

So, I vote for, "Leave it alone!"

f-d

I assume bringing it up to pitch or putting in a string for a broken one is not on the list of no no?

If sellers are going to be ultra picky on "their" instrument (I do agree it is theirs -- but I ASSUME they want to sell it or they would not have sent it out?) then they have to either lighten up or be prepared to get everything they send out back.

IMO -- A seller who sends an instrument in non-playing, broken strings or badly out of set-up, of some other condition rendering it hard to play SHOULD get it back and THEY should have to pay for shipping both ways because they are not dealing in good faith.