Buying the Big One (Capital B, Capital O)

[Amanda Gregg]

Dear friends,

Amidst the many "what's the best F-style under $1000" threads, I thought I'd turn it around and ask the following:

I'm considering a long term plan, say over the next five or ten years or longer (or never), to buy a Serious Mandolin. I plan to be patient, to weigh all options, and to avoid all prejudice. I have no need to spend a ton of money, but I would if necessary. And I'm talking about a single instrument, not a collection. I have a very fine instrument now, so I have no urgent need. If it helps narrow things down, I would use it primarily for bluegrass.

Those of you who have purchased a Big One of any provenance: what pieces of advice can you offer? What do you wish you had known? What surprised you? How can one be best educated, besides the obvious answer of traveling and playing as many mandolins as possible? What stones do you think have been left unturned on the cafe? What are the pros and cons of commissioning versus buying used, given waiting is not a concern?

I hope this will be a productive thread for the community. Link up old ones if you think they'd be relevant.

[Tobin]

I bought my "Big One" last year; the mandolin I intend to play the rest of my life. It was something I had wanted to do for years, and never felt like I was "ready". Not only from a personal proficiency standpoint, but because I felt like I'd never really have the full knowledge and information about all the options or possibilities. It was mind-numbing and paralyzing, trying to make a fully-informed decision with all the options out there. In the end, I had to tell myself that there was no way I was going to be able to know everything about all mandolins, or be able to play them all. So I made my decision based on the information I was able to reasonably gather.

Not that I feel particularly qualified to give advice on this, but I found that the most important part of my decision process was determining what I really wanted. Aside from tone (which was a big issue), I was very picky about neck shape, nut width, radiused fretboard, fret size, and other factors that are involved in playability for the shape of my hands. You've obviously been playing long enough to know what you like and don't like, and I think it's important to write down a list of features that are "must-haves" as well as "deal-breakers". And obviously, aesthetics come into play after that.

The mandolin I ended up with satisfied everything I was looking for, although it ended up costing well over twice what I thought I was going to spend on a new mandolin. But no matter how many others I tried (which was a lot), none of them really gave me the perfect vibe that this one did.

My advice to anyone shopping for the "Big One" is first and foremost to be patient, and don't rush into anything. Second, be sure of what you want, but don't be afraid to change your mind as your quest progresses. The name of the game is finding the right balance/compromise between all the variables (aesthetics, playability, tone, reputation, cost, etc.).

[Sterling]

Know what style you want to focus on. Play and listen lots. Get to know the instrument(s) you currently own and what is lacking in them. Right now I'm having Martin Jacobsen make me a Black Tie with the two oval sound holes for bass and treble. Whaile talking to Martin and expressing my tonal and visual desires, we have arrived at what should be my long term mandolin. I have a The Loar VS220, an Eastman 615 and a Crystal Forest Army Navy mandolin. I'll probably sell the Loar 220 VS as soon as I am able.

[Jim Garber]

You say that you have a very fine instrument -- I assume you are referring to your Stiver. I would assume that that is a pretty serious bluegrass mandolin from what I hear. However, I assume that there is something about it that is lacking for you either in its playability, tonal quality or looks or even (should we say it) its ability to impress others.

In any case, I would, of course, play as many mandolins as possible and also, if possible A-B as many as you can with your current favorite. I would say the best position to be would be to get that wad of cash ready. But I think you also need to be realistic and not to be wowed by the most revered of the makers or what others say about any instruments, but go with your own preferences and desires in an instrument.

I have owned plenty of mandolins (and other instruments) and have sold many as well. It was a sort of evolutionary process finding one better than the other or even one better for one kind of music than another. I have now a core group of instruments that work for me. Of course, there are always others out there that interest me but I don't know of The One. But, once again, that is me.

I actually have never really commissioned an instrument of any kind. Many of my instruments are vintage but even of the new ones I bought them already built. I do have a short list of makers I would consider from their work, their attitude (as exhibited on these forums or elsewhere) and my experience of playing their instruments. In fact I compiled a list some time ago notating which ones had examples I actually played and which i really wanted to, if I could.

Of course, my tastes are prob different from others -- I am not a bluegrass player, prefer oval holes for most of my music and A models in general.

[sunburst]

What are the pros and cons of commissioning versus buying used, given waiting is not a concern?

Full disclosure, I build mandolins.
I'm always an advocate for custom instruments. If factories can have their advocates, I think hand builders can have theirs too.
If you know what you want, I think a custom build is by far the best way to go, especially when waiting is no problem. I'm not trying to sell you a mandolin by saying this, but I'm a firm believer in supporting individual builders when we can, regardless of who you choose to work with.
You can get the look you want, the neck you want (radius 'board, flat 'board, big frets, small frets, extender or no, custom width, custom shape, etc.) you can even choose woods if you are so inclined. In short, describe your dream mandolin to a good custom builder, then enjoy the process of being engaged in it's construction.

Most builders develop a "signature sound". He/she can't guarantee that your mandolin will sound exactly like this one or that one, but if you like the sound of said builder's mandolins in general, you can be confident that yours will have a similar sound. If you like and want to replicate the sound of some other mandolin not made by your builder, don't ask him/her to duplicate that sound, go to the builder who's sound you like. Most experienced builders can modify their to your liking if you want, say, more "mid", "bass, or "treble", or some such, but generally only within limits.

Your choices, as I see it, come down to two major ones: 1. have a mandolin custom built 2. buy an existing mandolin.
If you buy an existing one, get what sounds, feels, and plays to suit you. If you don't yet know yourself well enough to trust your own judgement rather than your friend's, Chris Thile's, Sam Bush's, or whoever, you might not be ready for the "Big One", so talk to lots of players, talk to lots of builders, play all the mandolins you can in as many situations as you can, and if you develop (or already have) strong preferences, act on those.

[re simmers]

No mandolin stones unturned on this site!!!
I bought the big one in 1992, a brand new Flatiron F5 (Bruce Weber). That replaced my Epiphone 2 point.
In 2009 I realized that I was mistaken. So I looked for the real big one, and intended to buy used because I thought I would get more for the money. After about 6-9 months of café talk and searching, shopping and playing I decided to order a Buckeye. We drove to Ohio and picked out the tree, then picked up the big one, Buckeye #55 7 months later. I sold 3 mandolins (including my Flatiron) to get it. It is the best purchase I have ever made.
If you order a custom mandolin that is designed by you and your builder, you will be so thrilled with your purchase that you will want to practice more, play more, take lessons, get instructional material and most of all............crush the sound of banjos.
This is the perfect place to get the advice you need.

Bob

[drOK]

My advice to anyone shopping for the "Big One" is first and foremost to be patient, and don't rush into anything. Second, be sure of what you want, but don't be afraid to change your mind as your quest progresses. The name of the game is finding the right balance/compromise between all the variables (aesthetics, playability, tone, reputation, cost, etc.).

Tobin's remarks reminded me of an article I read online the other day called "How To Marry The Right Girl: A Mathematical Solution" that, while humorous in nature, may have some value to the analytically minded folks on this forum. After all, I think we can agree that choosing the "Big One" is a lot like choosing the "right one."

[sgrexa]

Jim- "In fact I compiled a list some time ago notating which ones had examples I actually played and which i really wanted to, if I could."

A short list of builders that I haven't tried but want to and would consider to be capable of building the "one" in a bluegrass context:

John Hamlett
Andrew Mowrey
Joseph Campanella Cleary
Troy Harris
Dan Voight
Pete Hart (he lets you pickout the tree!)

I would be looking for a lightweight, resonant and powerful instrument. You have a Stiver, I would think you have two out of three there. So many options that only you can decide what is going to work for you. I will sit back and observe now

Sean

[Jim Garber]

Hey Sean... I think we have the same list for the most part, tho I have a few more to add to that list.

[Ken Waltham]

Depends entirely what you mean by "The Big One". If you want something really special, PM me, I have a couple very interesting pieces.

[Randi Gormley]

Having just purchased such a thing about 3 weeks ago, I can't offer you any advice except to keep your mind open and don't insist on sticking to a particular timeline. I had no intention to buy a mandolin, much less one that cost serious cash, when I took a window-shopping trip to Acoustic Music about 40 minutes from my house. I was fine with my instruments, but over the years of playing them, I found that I was not satisfied with this, that or the other thing about them. Nothing fatal, just a little nagging thing that allowed me to say "when I win the lottery, I'll look for something different." It took years for me to figure out what it was that dissatisfied me but I never felt the urge to open my wallet for even high-priced replacements that didn't appreciably improve what I already had and liked.

When I found an instrument that fit my physical needs (a slim neck that didn't aggravate my arthritis/carpal tunnel) and had the mids and bass I felt I wanted, it kicked my "what I have is good enough" complacency to the side. I don't know if any other instrument would have done it because I played some very nice mandolins indeed before I settled on what I bought. I won't say I found "the one" and lights went off, but something about it just made it possible to get over the fence I'd been sitting on for 15 years. It may happen to you one day -- or it may not. Just keep yourself open to change and save your pennies.

[drOK]

A short list of builders that I haven't tried but want to and would consider to be capable of building the "one" in a bluegrass context:

John Hamlett
Andrew Mowrey
Joseph Campanella Cleary
Troy Harris
Dan Voight
Pete Hart (he lets you pickout the tree!)

I had a chance to (briefly) pick up a Campanella due-point a while back and I have to say just the memory of that mandolin is something I still dream about at night. I have no doubt that Cleary and the other luthiers on that list are builders of "Big Ones."

[Traveling Tracks]

I think this is a good thread and I'm sure more people will have plenty of good advice. I have yet to acquire a "Big One"....currently pretty satisfied with my Weber Bitterroot...but have recently starting dreaming of a Weber Fern or a Collings MF5 Deluxe Varnish.
Contemplating a trip out to Acoustic Music Works in Pittsburgh to get some hands on time with that level of Collings.

Anyway, in an effort to add something to this conversation.....two things......first, I think you (all of us) need to develop your musical ear to hear the higher "levels" of quality.....not just look at a price tag and believe it's "better" because it's more expensive. Not implying you would do this, but it's only natural. Training your ear is paramount. Only then could you fully appreciate the highest build quality that comes with that high price tag.

Also, I think that having that personal, emotional connection to the instrument is the part you can't put into words. You must feel that it's "YOUR" instrument and someone else has it and they are selling it. How are they doing that? : ) That's how I felt when I found my Weber at The Mandolin Store....I was like...wow....that is MY instrument. I then had to buy it of course.

[dang]

I thought this was going to be a thread about octave mandolins...

Too many people are out there looking for the "Big One" instead of trying to be (the right player for the) "Big One".

But while you are practicing it is nice to dream. I would agree with the above comments about custom orders. While it is a bit of a gamble since you can't play it before you buy, I have found the custom appointments I enjoy truly become a make-or-break deal with owning a mandolin. I have big hands, and like an oversized radiused fretboard with larger frets - something I found out about after playing a TON of different mandolins. I had a Gibson A9 that sounded perfect, but it killed my hands to play it.

Find out YOUR "must haves" and go from there. An intensely personal process.

[Ivan Kelsall]

You have to consider that any preferences for particular mandolins that others on here might express,your preference when you come to buy the 'Big One',may be very,very different !. My advice is to do as you're setting out to do & save enough cash to cover all options ie.from the cost of a Gilchrist / Dude / Ellis / Heiden to the cost of a high quality at a lesser price mandoloin from one of our other incredible builders. If you intend to buy your 'mandolin for life',you can't leave any make untried (within reason). I have my own 'favourites' in the builders on here,John Hamlett & Robb Brophy being just 2 of them,& there are several others who's instruments i'd literally have to try. It's not always the case (as we know), that a higher priced 'anything', is better than a similar item at a much lower cost. It's for that reason alone,that if i had say $25 - 30,000 US to spend,i'd make a short list & take as long as necessary to track down a mandolin that i felt had everything 'for me'. Then i'd stay at home & play it & never go out,just in case i heard another that i liked even more !. Our 'preferences' constantly change with familiarity. What sounds incredible today,may sound commonplace tomorrow,
Ivan

[Jim Mullins]

For me, it's a lot like falling in love. When I heard Barry Mitterhof's Buckeye (Pete Hart), it just affected me unlike any other mandolin I'd heard. Of course, I did some research afterwards, but it was more just to be sure I wasn't missing something that would change what was essentially an emotional (visceral, non-rational) decision. I've never regretted the decision. So, use both sides of your brain, would be my advice,but if you don't feel it, it's not the right one.

[DataNick]

Amanda,

Great thread!

I haven't acquired the Big O yet, but having played a whole lot of mandolins in the last 3 years, I feel I now know what I want. Several others (Jim Garber, John Hamlett, etc) have mentioned how important it is to play a lot of mandos. Excellent advice that a lot of folks admonish and that I subscribe to. I think you're already doing that by the limited interaction we've had. My observations:

1. Have a mandolin advisor.
By that I mean someone who's proficient as a player, is a good musician, has an example or 2 of what you would consider is the "Big One" in their stable, and has a mandolin palate (hearing tones, judging playability, build quality, etc) that you trust.
For me that person is Shaun Garrity. He's owned/played a whole lot of premium mandos, is a great Monroe style picker, and the observations that he gives re: mandolin tonal characteristics are dead on. Shaun is a guy who I want to consult on re: my mandolin stable, by letting him hear/play what I would consider acquiring.

2. Realize that part of the equation is you as a player.
When you go to Monroe Camp and listen to Mike Compton on his Gil; not only is it worthwhile for you to play his Gil, but also for you to listen closely to him playing your Stiver, and note the differences if you can tell (Mike on Gil, Mike on Stiver)
One of the best auditory impressions stamped in my brain is this monster player from NoCal, Jack Kinney, playing Monroe style on this "monster" bluegrass axe that turns out to be a Kentucky 900 or 1000 or something. As I'm listening to him I'm thinking, "Yes that's the sound I dig", but when I played his Kentucky, I didn't quite sound like that. Why? His right hand is waaaay better than mine! (and he's all of 18 y/o, sickening...LOL!)
Jack on that Kentucky sounded waaay better than my friend on their Gil, and almost imperceptible in tone & volume compared to Shaun on his Gibson MM (same jam). Now if the "Big One" is tilted in the collectibility direction then that doesn't matter as much, but if it's what Doyle Lawson said he looks for in a mandolin: "tone, volume, & playability" then this is something to factor in. How much is the "Big One" me, and how much is the instrument itself. The further along I get into this, I tend to believe it's a marriage of sorts, you and "that" instrument!

Best to you in your quest!

BTW: a builder friend told me in Jan of this year that yes, he could build me what I want. But he admonished me to look for that in a mandolin that already exists. His advice to me was that what I desire is out there, I just need to find it!

[usqebach]

One idea I've yet to hear espoused is that there is no "Big One," but rather a linear progression of learning and development in context of the mandolins that one plays. I believe there are a myriad of factors that comprise an instrument that are virtually impossible to develop a preference until one has played (and spent a considerable amount of time with) an instrument possessing that trait.

For example, my first mandolin was an Eastman 804. Prettiest thing I had ever seen! and it was well built, I was completely satisfied...until I came into possession of my 1917 Gibson A model. And that SOUND! Well, after a couple of years, I began to feel pain in my left hand when chording, due to that "splayed-V' neck. So I find out that the truss-rodded A models (post 1922) have a narrower neck profile. I buy one, spend some time with that, and I also had it refretted. "Oh, here's what big frets feel like compared to small". I've also owned an Engelmann topped F-style model. Sounds great! But it wasn't until I got a red-spruced topped comparable mandolin that I could tell the difference between the two.

Some of these I have kept, some I've sold on, and some I may still sell. But if one buys second-hand from the cafe', it's generally not too hard to get most or all of ones' money back, and be wiser for the experience.

So the point I am trying to make is that I think there is a flaw in the logic that says "I'll keep what I have for 5-10 years, save up, and buy "The Big ONE" that will keep me content for the rest of my life." I think if one did that, one would encounter several variables on "The Big One" that the builder could have made differently if he or she had been directed to do so, but the player didn't know to ask because she had no experience with that before.

[Charlieshafer]

Hey Amanda! All I can add is that after 40 years of buying and eventually selling various big ones of all shapes and sizes (mandolins to mandocellos, violins to cellos) all I can say is I must have A.D.D. or something, as the big ones only seem to be the big one for just a certain amount of time. Then, something happens and...wait, what were we talking about? Oh, yeah, something happens or comes along and just really strikes me, so I trade. The new thing isn't necessarily more expensive, older/newer, has a better reputation, etc, it just has a sound and playability that happens to hit me right there.

I will probably never do another commissioned instrument myself unless I have certain physical limitations, not because these guys can't make amazing instruments as they do on a level that's really astounding to me, but because I never know/knew if what I was going to get would match my mood at that moment. Right now I'm drooling over an old A-3 that isn't expensive, pretty, or in great shape, but the sound melts my heart and it's just feels so nice. That might be my next "big one." But check in next week, just to be sure...

[stevedenver]

wow
great thoughts, so cerebral, as I am often-but when it comes to instruments and, having played for decades, I know what makes me perk up

when I get that emotional OMG!!!!!!! , if I am able, I buy

I suggest to simply play a lot, yes even the big ones, and when your bell rings-buy it-shipping is fairly cheap in this regard I think to sample a few mail order and with some up front conversation with sellers

not unlike the finding a girl thing, theres lust and theres long term, and you wont know one until you know the other

you cannot speed up your overall life knowledge-your ears will continue to become better, your thoughts on aesthetic appointments may change, you cannot have a crystal ball-you will grow and what you seek now may not be what you seek in ten years

this IS in fact, confirming that all relationships change, either blossoming or fading
there can be THE ONE, and, this doesn't mean it has to be superlative, only that you love it and bond with it-I am lucky enough to have 4 or 5 instruments like this-there may be better, but mine fit me and my needs, and I become intimately knowledgeable and attached. Like a pair of broken in boots or jeans or pocket knife.

-you have to be , to some extent, in the moment and enjoy the here and now, and accept that sometimes your judgment will be superb, and others not so much..

the only thing I would consider commissioning are the top name builders-only because, if it doesn't sing to you, you have an outside chance of reclaiming your outlay

there are so many little one off things that affect me, feel, sound, color or the finish, patina, stuff I would never think about, but I know when something is alive and in my hands-

sadly, I think price is a pretty good indicator too-not always, but pretty much

and used, well there are good things-like the wood has settled, you have it in hand and, some depreciation on someone other than you-

[Traveling Tracks]

Well said usqebach! I do concur. That's what I was mentioning above about going through the levels of advancement.
I went from a $300 el cheap for my first year, a $700 Washburn for my second year, and my third year I bought the $2800 Weber.
This was due to my progression as a player.
In the process of looking for mando #3 my very talented multi-instrumentalist friend said to me "you want a better sound, practice more" Now I don't think he meant any harm, but it was good advice. But I still outgrew the Washburn rather quickly. So I think it's a combination of advancing as a player and buying a mando that is just a bit above you so it inspires you and makes you grow.
Therefore my #4 will probably be a $5k+ instrument.....once I get better.

[sunburst]

Hey Amanda! All I can add is that after 40 years of buying and eventually selling various big ones of all shapes and sizes (mandolins to mandocellos, violins to cellos) all I can say is I must have A.D.D. or something, as the big ones only seem to be the big one for just a certain amount of time. Then, something happens and...wait, what were we talking about? Oh, yeah, something happens or comes along and just really strikes me, so I trade. The new thing isn't necessarily more expensive, older/newer, has a better reputation, etc, it just has a sound and playability that happens to hit me right there.

There are two extremes; one person can get a mandolin, guitar, whatever for Christmas when he/she is 16 years old and play that one for life and love it even though he/she could get a better one at any time. Another person is constantly finding a succession of "Big Ones" and going from one instrument to another for a lifetime, never fully satisfied. Most of us are somewhere between those extremes.

[Willie Poole]

"The Big One" doesn`t really have to be an expensive mandolin... I own five and the last one I bought was a Ky. KM-900 and it has a sound that equals and surpasses most of the others, I have seen here on the Café that other owners of the KM-900 are well satisfied with them and wouldn`t hesitate to use them as a professional....I am not saying that it should be your choice, just saying don`t be persuaded by a huge price tag......I let a young lady play my KM-900 at a open mic session one night and she had an expensive big name mandolin and she fell in love with what I had and she said if she could sell hers for what she paid for it she would look to buy a KM-900....again I am not saying that it should be your "Big One" but don`t pass on a mandolin that doesn`t have a big name or price tag, there are many good mandolins being built today and you have a BIG job playing all of them to find the perfect one for you...Good luck...

Willie

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Depends entirely what you mean by "The Big One". If you want something really special, PM me, I have a couple very interesting pieces.

Amanda, that's just what I did. A very good step for me, leap, I should say. For others? Well, at least you'll sure broaden your idea of "The Big One".

[Amanda Gregg]

Everyone, thank you for your thoughtful responses. This is great. I'll jump in and stir the pot in a day or two